Majority now support a hard Brexit

[Brillopad]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing?utm_term=.lxQZ06jX4#.txJrdw3Mb

This seemed obvious for a while now despite attempts by some to suggest otherwise. People respecting a public vote despite not entirely agreeing with leaving the EU is admirable and what democracy is all about. :Dance2:

[Scarlett.]

Ah yes, the paragon of journalism, Buzzfeed.

[Brillopad]

Ah yes, the paragon of journalism, Buzzfeed.

Are you trying to say the study is fake or the results are incorrect? Easy to dismiss something with just uninformed words.

Buzzfeed is as valid as most other journalistic presentations on here. :crazy:

[Jack_]

BUZZFEED :joker: **** sake

[Crimson Dynamo]

BUZZFEED :joker: **** sake

A groundbreaking project by the London School of Economics and Oxford University surveying more than 3,000 people – which BuzzFeed News has seen exclusively ahead of its official publication

Helps if you read it before falling over yourself to make a smart comment

:rolleyes:

[Jack_]

What Type of Brexit Are You? Take The Test!

You Won't Believe What Jeremy Corbyn Said To This Remainer!

[Crimson Dynamo]

What Type of Brexit Are You? Take The Test!

You Won't Believe What Jeremy Corbyn Said To This Remainer!

id stop now until you read it m8te

:smug:

[Toy Soldier]

"One poll showed 88% of the public supporting free trade with the EU post-Brexit, while 69% wanted customs checks at the border – a directly contradictory position, meaning at least 57% of respondents had said they supported both open and closed borders."

And people try to argue that the majority of voters know what they're voting for? :idc:

[JTM45]

Absolute lies and cesspit 'journalism' again. :bored:

More people in the UK would choose no Brexit than any Brexit at the moment.

[Brillopad]

Absolute lies and cesspit 'journalism' again. :bored:

More people in the UK would choose no Brexit than any Brexit at the moment.

And what study is that little diamond of information from. The survey of JTM45 no less. Yep!!

[Crimson Dynamo]

Absolute lies and cesspit 'journalism' again. :bored:

More people in the UK would choose no Brexit than any Brexit at the moment.

another one who did not read it

do you even read what you post?

[Crimson Dynamo]

"One poll showed 88% of the public supporting free trade with the EU post-Brexit, while 69% wanted customs checks at the border – a directly contradictory position, meaning at least 57% of respondents had said they supported both open and closed borders."

And people try to argue that the majority of voters know what they're voting for? :idc:

same as every referendum and every general election then...

[Oliver_W]

Absolute lies and cesspit 'journalism' again. :bored:

More people in the UK would choose no Brexit than any Brexit at the moment.

What study is that based on? Is it form such amazing places as Buzzfeed and LSE?

[Toy Soldier]

same as every referendum and every general election then...Yes, but I've seen members on here take a LOT of flak in the past for "daring" to suggest that the majority of voters go with the tides and don't really have much political knowledge at all... If any...

"Do you want hard Brexit?"

"Oh yes of course! But alongside that, I think we should keep free trade."

[jaxie]

There is no such thing as a hard soft brexit. There is leaving the EU or the Eu lite some try to sell as soft brexit because they want their way.

Re the misquoting jokes and jolly japes above where the single market is confused with a free trade deal, we will leave the single market and everything else when we leave the EU, because we are leaving.

However I don't see how that stops stops us negotiating a free trade deal for after we leave. Canada has one. So it's not impossible.

Feeling the pain for those who got flak for presuming they know why 17 million other people voted and for implying those who had a different view were stupid. Like heartburn, bit of a burp.

[JTM45]

What study is that based on? Is it form such amazing places as Buzzfeed and LSE?

It's the OP that's posting links to Buzzfeed 'articles' so why are you trying to pin that on me?

I make and voice my own opinions which are formed by staying aware and finding and reading trustable and reliable information.

Some people here can't even be bothered to type whole words let alone more than a single sentence (and then only just) and just rely on posting links to jibberish 'articles'. They pretend to be aware as long as they don't have to spend a couple of minutes researching something. If they can't click on a link and be spoon-fed information then they'd rather wither away wallowing in their ignorance.:idc:

[Oliver_W]

It's the OP that's posting links to Buzzfeed 'articles' so why are you trying to pin that on me?

I make and voice my own opinions which are formed by staying aware and finding and reading trustable and reliable information.

Some people here can't even be bothered to type whole words let alone more than a single sentence (and then only just) and just rely on posting links to jibberish 'articles'. They pretend to be aware as long as they don't have to spend a couple of minutes researching something. If they can't click on a link and be spoon-fed information then they'd rather wither away wallowing in their ignorance.:idc:

So you don't have any source for your claim, not even one as comical as Buzzfeed?

[Brillopad]

It's the OP that's posting links to Buzzfeed 'articles' so why are you trying to pin that on me?

I make angd voice my own opinions which are formed by staying aware and finding and reading trustable and reliable information.

Some people here can't even be bothered to type whole words let alone more than a single sentence (and then only just) and just rely on posting links to jibberish 'articles'. They pretend to be aware as long as they don't have to spend a couple of minutes researching something. If they can't click on a link and be spoon-fed information then they'd rather wither away wallowing in their ignorance.:idc:

A study carried out by the London School of Econimics and Oxford University isn't a credible source according to you.

Well excuse me for giving more credence to them than your opinion which is based on nothing more than personal opinion. If you can prove the study is somehow incorrect or dubious be my guest.

[JTM45]

So you don't have any source for your claim, not even one as comical as Buzzfeed?

So forming one's own opinions is a no-no these days is it ? It's clickable articles or nothing eh........regardless of the quality ? Always easier to be a critic than to add to something isn't it. I've seen some of the **** you've linked to before and it hasn't been worth clicking on.

Just move on if you're not interested in my educated opinions.

[Brillopad]

So forming one's own opinions is a no-no these days is it. It's Linkable articles or nothing eh ? Always easier to be a critic than to add to something isn't it. I've seensome of the **** you've linked to before and it hasn't been worth clicking on.

Just move on if you're not interested in my educated opinions.

You have provided nothing that suggests an 'educated' opinion - just a lot of sarcastic hot air!

[JTM45]

You have provided nothing that suggests an 'educated' opinion - just a lot of sarcastic hot air!

And you do ? :laugh:

I am educated (i know Trump loves the uneducated so i will always make a point that i am not that. His ignorance is repugnant!) and i state my opinion. If you disagree with any of it or can actually correct anything i've said please do so. That's what constructive discussion is all about.

I've seen you regularly post some absolute drivel and called you out on it and i haven't once seen you able to correct my points. You regularly turn up to a gun fight armed with a spoon. :laugh:

[Oliver_W]

And you do ? :laugh:

I am educated (i know Trump loves the uneducated so i will always make a point that i am not that. His ignorance is repugnant!) and i state my opinion. If you disagree with any of it or can actually correct anything i've said please do so. That's what constructive discussion is all about.
Whether or not you're educated is irrelevant. I have a low opinion of Buzzfeed, but they were reporting on a study by Oxford and LSE, they weren't pulling out of the same ass they retrieve most of their drivel from. Stating that More people in the UK would choose no Brexit than any Brexit at the moment is a pretty bold claim, unless you want to admit it's your opinion, based on nothing but what your associates say?

[Dominic]

Buzzfeed? Really?

[JTM45]

Whether or not you're educated is irrelevant. I have a low opinion of Buzzfeed, but they were reporting on a study by Oxford and LSE, they weren't pulling out of the same ass they retrieve most of their drivel from. Stating that More people in the UK would choose no Brexit than any Brexit at the moment is a pretty bold claim, unless you want to admit it's your opinion, based on nothing but what your associates say?

I've already stated that it's my opinion based on many respected sources that i take notice of. If you're really that interested you could find the same information instead of demanding spoon-fed clickable links.

As i've already said, i absolutely don't care if you agree with me or not. I was merely voicing my educated opinion. Nowhere did i say ''and demand you agree with it or else''.:laugh:

[Tom4784]

Most voters are ignorant ****s that don't know their arse from their elbow and voted on nothing more than empty promises, headlines and catchphrases. Same with the latest election, anyone that bothered to look into the Tories' manifesto for a minute or two could see that they are full of **** and that Theresa May is a weak leader that will fold to everything because she only stands for anything on a superficial level.

Ignorance will always prevail, most people that voted in the referendum would have voted based on what their family and friends were voting or whether or not they wanted to 'kick all the immigrants out'.

Leaver regret became a thing after the referendum results came out and the lies that the Leaver side spouted were instantly debunked. It wouldn't surprise me to see the sheep still living with their heads in the sand but you won't get many of the 49% that voted Remain switching sides when literally nothing good has come from it thus far.

Very little point in voting tbh, ignorance always wins. Cue the faux indignation because I dared to have an opinion.

[Brillopad]

And you do ? :laugh:

I am educated (i know Trump loves the uneducated so i will always make a point that i am not that. His ignorance is repugnant!) and i state my opinion. If you disagree with any of it or can actually correct anything i've said please do so. That's what constructive discussion is all about.

I've seen you regularly post some absolute drivel and called you out on it and i haven't once seen you able to correct my points. You regularly turn up to a gun fight armed with a spoon. :laugh:

What's Trump got to do with it. The study was about Britain leaving the EU. I have no interest in Trump. I have no interest in your points either as they are usually based on a personal attack rather than you calling me out on anything.

Actually I prefer a 'spoon' to an unloaded gun full of hot air but no bite.

[Oliver_W]

I've already stated that it's my opinion based on many respected sources that i take notice of. If you're really that interested you could find the same information instead of demanding spoon-fed clickable links.
I could find information, but a lot of it could easily be a pile of rubbish. I could easily find some sources to show Obama is the Anti-Christ or some rubbish, wouldn't make it valid. So what are your "respectable" sources?

[JTM45]

Well said Dezzy.

The leavers just stick their fingers in their ears whenever the undeniability of the fact that people voted for lies and on false facts rears its head.

[JTM45]

I could find information, but a lot of it could easily be a pile of rubbish.

That's where you can use your powers of deduction to evaluate the info. As i've repeatedly said, i DO NOT CARE about convincing you to share my views and opinions. They are mine. I'm not going to spoon-feed you.

[Oliver_W]

Well said Dezzy.

The leavers just stick their fingers in their ears whenever the undeniability of the fact that people voted for lies and on false facts rears its head.

What would you call more "undeniable" : a study by Oxford and LSE, or some rando on a forum saying "there ARE sources out there, I SWEAR!!"

[JTM45]

In the context i used the term the fact that Farage admitted less than 24 hours after the vote that the ''£350 million a week will go straight back into the NHS when we leave the EU'' was incorrect and undeniable.

Please don't call me names ''Oliver''.:laugh:

[Oliver_W]

In the context i used the term the fact that Farage admitted less than 24 hours after the vote that the ''£350 million a week will go straight back into the NHS when we leave the EU'' was incorrect and undeniable.

Please don't call me names ''Oliver''.:laugh:

Farage was never in a position to make that promise, he has and had virtually no political power. "Rando" isn't an insult, sorry if you took it that way, it's just short for "random person." And who cares about Farage, what's he got to do with the price of fish?

[jaxie]

Most voters are ignorant ****s that don't know their arse from their elbow and voted on nothing more than empty promises, headlines and catchphrases. Same with the latest election, anyone that bothered to look into the Tories' manifesto for a minute or two could see that they are full of **** and that Theresa May is a weak leader that will fold to everything because she only stands for anything on a superficial level.

Ignorance will always prevail, most people that voted in the referendum would have voted based on what their family and friends were voting or whether or not they wanted to 'kick all the immigrants out'.

Leaver regret became a thing after the referendum results came out and the lies that the Leaver side spouted were instantly debunked. It wouldn't surprise me to see the sheep still living with their heads in the sand but you won't get many of the 49% that voted Remain switching sides when literally nothing good has come from it thus far.

Very little point in voting tbh, ignorance always wins. Cue the faux indignation because I dared to have an opinion.

Keeping in the spirit. Flak, flak, flak, flak.

Oh look I managed a whole sentence without calling you names or questioning your intelligence. You should try it sometime. It's not having an opinion that is the problem.

[Tom4784]

Keeping in the spirit. Flak, flak, flak, flak.

Oh look I managed a whole sentence without calling you names or questioning your intelligence. You should try it sometime. It's not having an opinion that is the problem.


Hmm? You must be reading something completely different to what I wrote because I haven't called anyone names or questioned their intelligence. Any excuse to have a pop at me under the guise of the moral high ground, I guess.

Unless you're pretending to be offended for the sake of the masses and trying to make out that what I've said is in someway an insult towards members? If so, good luck with the reaching.

[Brillopad]

Keeping in the spirit. Flak, flak, flak, flak.

Oh look I managed a whole sentence without calling you names or questioning your intelligence. You should try it sometime. It's not having an opinion that is the problem.

It's worrying how some simply cannot see that insulting thousands of voters for having a different opinion to theirs is the real problem here. Some speak of not being allowed an opinion when they repeatedly call thousands of others 'ignorant *****s' for just that - having an opinion. Then having the Gaul to say they haven't called anyone names or questioned their intelligence - definitely not on the same page as the rest of us. Practising what they preach would be a good lesson learned I think. :shrug:

[Brillopad]

Well said Dezzy.

The leavers just stick their fingers in their ears whenever the undeniability of the fact that people voted for lies and on false facts rears its head.

Unlike of course the fact most of those that constantly talk of lies and false facts when it comes to Brexit then bought into Corbyn's lies on clearing all student debt and his empty promises of throwing masses of tax payers money at this that and the other when several experts have stated such claims are unaffordable and this country would end up with a Hugh deficit that would have a negative effect on the economy leading to untold problems. Pot and kettle. :shrug:

Corbyn is just another Labour politician promising the earth to win an election. You would think people would get that by now. You can stick your fingers in your ears once again.

[DemolitionRed]

Unlike of course the fact most of those that constantly talk of lies and false facts when it comes to Brexit then bought into Corbyn's lies on clearing all student debt and his empty promises of throwing masses of tax payers money at this that and the other when several experts have stated such claims are unaffordable and this country would end up with a Hugh deficit that would have a negative effect on the economy leading to untold problems. Pot and kettle. :shrug:

Corbyn is just another Labour politician promising the earth to win an election. You would think people would get that by now. You can stick your fingers in your ears once again.

You do realize that spending comes before tax and the only thing tax is used for is paying off interest on government debt? We don't have a special pot for consumer spending or salary contributions!! QE works, providing the money is invested and guarantees a return (in tax). Therefore, investing in education is a very secure spend because the more educated professionals we have, the more they earn and the more they earn, the more they spend. That's a double whammy on tax return.

To suggest we will be paying, through our taxes, to educate students just shows a lack of understanding around how tax and deficits work. If we didn't have a deficit, the money machine would come to a grinding halt.

[Brillopad]

You do realize that spending comes before tax and the only thing tax is used for is paying off interest on government debt? We don't have a special pot for consumer spending or salary contributions!! QE works, providing the money is invested and guarantees a return (in tax). Therefore, investing in education is a very secure spend because the more educated professionals we have, the more they earn and the more they earn, the more they spend. That's a double whammy on tax return.

To suggest we will be paying, through our taxes, to educate students just shows a lack of understanding around how tax and deficits work. If we didn't have a deficit, the money machine would come to a grinding halt.

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/832681/jeremy-corbyn-student-labour-party-leader-debt-manifesto

So you say, but information you have presented before has been questioned.

Like most things the size of the national deficit is relevant. Very high Government debt can slow down the economy and increase taxation to pay for it. According to the latest Article IV report on the UK economy the IMF said that maintaining deficits and debts at high levels would also constrain the space to respond proactively to future large negative growth shocks.

It is clearly not in our interests to have a very high national deficit which is what we would have to finance Corbyns' grand plans. Talk is cheap, action isn't.

Personally I do not support a policy that expects those earning less to pay for a higher level of education that will likely provide much higher earnings for the beneficiaries. In principle it is wrong. If you want to benefit from higher education and the benefits it brings you have to expect to contribute.

[Toy Soldier]

Like most things the size of the national deficit is relevant. Very high Government debt can slow down the economy and increase taxation to pay for it. According to the latest Article IV report on the UK economy the IMF said that maintaining deficits and debts at high levels would also constrain the space to respond proactively to future large negative growth shocks.

Ok but do you understand the reason for the part in bold? Basically the reason for reducing debt when "times are good" is so that you can SPEND SPEND SPEND when things get bad, because investment is the only way to effectively pull out of an economic downturn. When they talk about having room to reapond; this is what they mean. Having room to BORROW and SPEND more when the economy is suffering.

Now... Both Labour and the Tories unfortunately got this arse-backwards in each of their terms. Labour were in power during major boom years when we were thriving, but failed to address debt issues when we were in the position to do so. On the flipside... The Tories CUT spending and tightened the belts at a time when the economy was in trouble... The absolute opposite of the right thing to do. Creative spending on jobs and keeping the country flowing, and keeping money IN the pockets of consumers rather than removing it through austerity, is the way to bring us back to a thriving economy and THEN tackle the debt.

And they're still doing it. Despite what some would have us believe, the economy is far from recovered, let alone thriving, and this Tory obsession with austerity and cuts is only going to slow the economy down further and make things worse. It needs a turbo boost... Not someone hitting the brakes.

Its not really comparable to personal debt but a comparison can be drawn;

Let's say someone is in £40,000 of debt and they earn £25,000 a year. An expensive, but promising, opportunity comes up and they now have two options:

1) They could stay in their 25k job and put every spare penny they have onto debts every month. If they do this, they reckon they can pay it all off in 15 years of frugal living.

2) They can borrow another 10k and go on a 3 year course that will bag them a job earning £50k a year. During the course they can only afford to repay the interest, so at the end of that, they will be in more debt, but earning more money, and have the now-50k debt paid off in another 9 years.

So in option 1 it takes 15 years to pay the debt and still be in the same dead end job at the end of it.

Option 2, initially the debt rises but in the end it only takes 12 years total to pay the debt, even through the debt was higher and started repaying later, and the person is also in a much better position at the end of it.


The theory is the same. Spend money to make the economy truly strong and then repaying the debt won't be the same mountain that it is with our struggling economy in a time of uncertainty.

[jaxie]

It's worrying how some simply cannot see that insulting thousands of voters for having a different opinion to theirs is the real problem here. Some speak of not being allowed an opinion when they repeatedly call thousands of others 'ignorant *****s' for just that - having an opinion. Then having the Gaul to say they haven't called anyone names or questioned their intelligence - definitely not on the same page as the rest of us. Practising what they preach would be a good lesson learned I think. :shrug:

Yup and the implication that people believed every word of the campaign.

My mind was made up years before the referendum, I knew how I would vote if there ever was one, for many reasons, but not least because we were dragged through major changes to what the EU was without being consulted for 40 years. That is unacceptable to me. Ironically because politicians calling all the shots and taking us into a political experiment without the people's consent was unacceptable. And yet here we have those who feel they know it all on forum telling me I voted the way I did because I believed every word of the campaign. :shrug: I'm not the one telling others how they think and I'm being called ignorant.

[Livia]

I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

[Tom4784]

It's worrying how some simply cannot see that insulting thousands of voters for having a different opinion to theirs is the real problem here. Some speak of not being allowed an opinion when they repeatedly call thousands of others 'ignorant *****s' for just that - having an opinion. Then having the Gaul to say they haven't called anyone names or questioned their intelligence - definitely not on the same page as the rest of us. Practising what they preach would be a good lesson learned I think. :shrug:

Coming from you? How often are you insulting people who believe in PC or the left in general? Get off that high horse before it collapses under the weight of your hypocrisy. Also good for you for trying to be PC :clap1:

I've never denied the masses their opinions, I've simply commented on them. You and others, however, do constantly try to shut down opinions you don't like be pretending to be offended and making out that anything you dislike is a rule break.

I haven't called any member names or questioned their intelligence. Again, like Jaxie, you are trying to invalidate my opinion by making out that I'm insulting members when I've not simply because you can't handle opinions you disagree with.

[Tom4784]

I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

Not all leavers, just the majority that voted because they believed that a Bus that told them the NHS would get millions more in funding or because a bunch of politicians selling snake oil told them what they wanted to hear or simply because they voted to leave because that's what other people they know did.

If you vote in an election or a referendum without truly understanding the issue then you are voting in ignorance and the majority of all voters are largely ignorant.

Of course that distinction doesn't matter, any reason to act offended, huh?

[jaxie]

I see "leavers" are still regarded is "stupid and ignorant" by the high-flying, deep thinking academics here who voted "stay".

:laugh: You said it much more eloquently than I did.

[Tom4784]

Yup and the implication that people believed every word of the campaign.

My mind was made up years before the referendum, I knew how I would vote if there ever was one, for many reasons, but not least because we were dragged through major changes to what the EU was without being consulted for 40 years. That is unacceptable to me. Ironically because politicians calling all the shots and taking us into a political experiment without the people's consent was unacceptable. And yet here we have those who feel they know it all on forum telling me I voted the way I did because I believed every word of the campaign. :shrug: I'm not the one telling others how they think and I'm being called ignorant.

This is the problem, you believe that everyone who voted leave thinks exactly the same as you and just so happens to be informed on all the issues. You might be informed but the majority of all voters are not and to act like they are is to live in denial.

You just want an excuse to be offended at what someone you dislike has said although common sense and basic reading skills would dictate that what I said doesn't apply to anyone informed of the issues surrounding the vote.

[jaxie]

This is the problem, you believe that everyone who voted leave thinks exactly the same as you and just so happens to be informed on all the issues. You might be informed but the majority of all voters are not and to act like they are is to live in denial.

You just want an excuse to be offended at what someone you dislike has said although common sense and basic reading skills would dictate that what I said doesn't apply to anyone informed of the issues surrounding the vote.

Of course I don't believe that everyone voted for the same reason I did. I would also never presume to state most of them voted because they didn't know what they were voting for. That's just you. :shrug: I wouldn't dream of assuming I know why anyone voted the way they did. I certainly wouldn't accuse them of being thick or ignorant if they chose differently.

Why would I dislike you? I don't know you. I do dislike the sweeping arrogant generalisations which are based on no facts at all when you can have no idea what the majority of people thought or knew when they voted. Again with the veiled insults. Now you are accusing me of having no basic reading skills or common sense. How is that not offensive? What is wrong with you? You keep digging the hole.

[Brillopad]

Coming from you? How often are you insulting people who believe in PC or the left in general? Get off that high horse before it collapses under the weight of your hypocrisy. Also good for you for trying to be PC :clap1:

I've never denied the masses their opinions, I've simply commented on them. You and others, however, do constantly try to shut down opinions you don't like be pretending to be offended and making out that anything you dislike is a rule break.

I haven't called any member names or questioned their intelligence. Again, like Jaxie, you are trying to invalidate my opinion by making out that I'm insulting members when I've not simply because you can't handle opinions you disagree with.

It isn't me that can't handle opposing opinions. No matter what you say people will form their own opinions regardless of yours.

[Tom4784]

Of course I don't believe that everyone voted for the same reason I did. I would also never presume to state most of them voted because they didn't know what they were voting for. That's just you. :shrug: I wouldn't dream of assuming I know why anyone voted the way they did. I certainly wouldn't accuse them of being thick or ignorant if they chose differently.

Why would I dislike you? I don't know you. I do dislike the sweeping arrogant generalisations which are based on no facts at all when you can have no idea what the majority of people thought or knew when they voted. Again with the veiled insults. Now you are accusing me of having no basic reading skills or common sense. How is that not offensive? What is wrong with you? You keep digging the hole.

You can tell by the tactics and points that campaigns use and focus on which are most effective. The leave campaign didn't really pick up pace until Immigration and the NHS lie became the cornerstones of the Leave argument. It had the most traction with the public as a whole, if they didn't they wouldn't have become the focal points of the vote.

Same with the latest elections, May was dependant on slogans ('Strong and Stable', 'No deal is better than a bad deal') and if they weren't effective in generating a positive response from voters then they wouldn't have relied on them so heavily.

You accuse me of arrogance (hypocritical considering how offended you act later on in the paragraph) yet my statements are based on looking at the tactics used by campaigns and simple knowledge of the public as a whole. You can pretend that everyone is informed and know exactly what they are voting for all you like but it won't reflect the reality that most voters won't ever research what they are voting on and don't really understand WHAT they are voting for which is why shallow tactics like slogans and headlines are so effective because people don't care enough to look into it any deeper than that.

The rest is just you looking for reasons to be offended to discount what I said instead of forming an actual argument against it so I shan't bother responding to it.

[Tom4784]

It isn't me that can't handle opposing opinions. No matter what you say people will form their own opinions regardless of yours.

A mantra that I've repeated for years on this section is 'Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone else is entitled to an opinion on that opinion.' Deflecting won't change that, Brillo.

[DemolitionRed]

Ok but do you understand the reason for the part in bold? Basically the reason for reducing debt when "times are good" is so that you can SPEND SPEND SPEND when things get bad, because investment is the only way to effectively pull out of an economic downturn. When they talk about having room to reapond; this is what they mean. Having room to BORROW and SPEND more when the economy is suffering.

Now... Both Labour and the Tories unfortunately got this arse-backwards in each of their terms. Labour were in power during major boom years when we were thriving, but failed to address debt issues when we were in the position to do so.


Yep but I'll add: that was personal debt issues and not government debt issues. If Labour had put more restrictions on the banks instead of allowing carte blanche lending like the rest of the Western world, the bailouts would still of happened but would of been considerably lower.


On the flipside... The Tories CUT spending and tightened the belts at a time when the economy was in trouble... The absolute opposite of the right thing to do. Creative spending on jobs and keeping the country flowing, and keeping money IN the pockets of consumers rather than removing it through austerity, is the way to bring us back to a thriving economy and THEN tackle the debt.

And they're still doing it. Despite what some would have us believe, the economy is far from recovered, let alone thriving, and this Tory obsession with austerity and cuts is only going to slow the economy down further and make things worse. It needs a turbo boost... Not someone hitting the brakes.


Absolutely! Negative growth shocks come about from two things 1) lack of spending in the right areas with QE and 2) Savings (austerity) create growth shocks because its money being taken out of the economy and when you keep removing vast sums of money from the economy it raises the deficit but doesn’t allow growth and only growth can balance out that deficit through taxation. What we have been witnessing for the last decade is a model that simply doesn't work.


Its not really comparable to personal debt but a comparison can be drawn


I'll apologize in advance for snatching this little gem that should be written in broad letters across every billboard in the country! Though I don't think comparisons can be drawn and here's why.

A government with its own currency (like ours) cannot have a personal debt crisis like the ex-student who owes on his loan because the government creates its own currency as and when required.


The theory is the same. Spend money to make the economy truly strong and then repaying the debt won't be the same mountain that it is with our struggling economy in a time of uncertainty.

Yep... spending more than pays for itself and cuts impose more harm than the initial sum supposedly saved.

[jaxie]

You can tell by the tactics and points that campaigns use and focus on which are most effective. The leave campaign didn't really pick up pace until Immigration and the NHS lie became the cornerstones of the Leave argument. It had the most traction with the public as a whole, if they didn't they wouldn't have become the focal points of the vote.

Same with the latest elections, May was dependant on slogans ('Strong and Stable', 'No deal is better than a bad deal') and if they weren't effective in generating a positive response from voters then they wouldn't have relied on them so heavily.

You accuse me of arrogance (hypocritical considering how offended you act later on in the paragraph) yet my statements are based on looking at the tactics used by campaigns and simple knowledge of the public as a whole. You can pretend that everyone is informed and know exactly what they are voting for all you like but it won't reflect the reality that most voters won't ever research what they are voting on and don't really understand WHAT they are voting for which is why shallow tactics like slogans and headlines are so effective because people don't care enough to look into it any deeper than that.

The rest is just you looking for reasons to be offended to discount what I said instead of forming an actual argument against it so I shan't bother responding to it.

You just did respond. It's kind of amusing how you accuse others of having no argument and then base your post on what you know about how the nation thinks.

You are assuming, once again, that people voted based solely on the campaign. The reality is that not everyone votes based on campaigns. For instance there are people who will vote Labour or Tory every time regardless so the campaign at each election means very little to them.

Your simple knowledge of the public as a whole is some sort of telepathy skills?

Hypocrasy accusations? Pot, kettle. :shrug:

Don't keep replying Dezzy, I have better things to do with my time. :wavey:

[Brillopad]

A mantra that I've repeated for years on this section is 'Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone else is entitled to an opinion on that opinion.' Deflecting won't change that, Brillo.

As usual that works both ways. I'm not deflecting anything.

[Brillopad]

Coming from you? How often are you insulting people who believe in PC or the left in general? Get off that high horse before it collapses under the weight of your hypocrisy. Also good for you for trying to be PC :clap1:

I've never denied the masses their opinions, I've simply commented on them. You and others, however, do constantly try to shut down opinions you don't like be pretending to be offended and making out that anything you dislike is a rule break.

I haven't called any member names or questioned their intelligence. Again, like Jaxie, you are trying to invalidate my opinion by making out that I'm insulting members when I've not simply because you can't handle opinions you disagree with.

But you're the one getting all ancie when people comment on your opinions if you don't like the comments - accusing people of having it in for you because they don't like you or of trying to undermine you. :shrug: Waste of time. You only hear what you want to hear. Your mindset is set in stone just as you accuse others of.

[Tom4784]

You just did respond. It's kind of amusing how you accuse others of having no argument and then base your post on what you know about how the nation thinks.

You are assuming, once again, that people voted based solely on the campaign. The reality is that not everyone votes based on campaigns. For instance there are people who will vote Labour or Tory every time regardless so the campaign at each election means very little to them.

Your simple knowledge of the public as a whole is some sort of telepathy skills?

Hypocrasy accusations? Pot, kettle. :shrug:

Don't keep replying Dezzy, I have better things to do with my time. :wavey:

Ah, look who's trying to repress opposing opinions. I'll share my opinion because i'm ****ing entitled to do so whether you like it or not.

To think that the majority of voters didn't vote based on the campaign is foolishness. It's one regard in which the election and the Referendum are different because some people will typically always vote for their preferred parties but there was no historic precedent when it came to the referendum. Most parties were divided over it.

Again you can deny it all you want but immigration and the NHS lie WAS the centrepiece of the whole Leave campaign and it was what swayed the public in the favour of Leave when Remain had the poll numbers for months leading up to the vote. You can make all the low jibes you want to hide the fact that you can't argue against what I'm saying but it won't make what I'm saying any less true.

A majority of voters, like always, did not understand what they were voting for. Scream and rage all you want, it doesn't change that.

[Tom4784]

As usual that works both ways. I'm not deflecting anything.

Ah, a nothing response then.

[Tom4784]

But you're the one getting all ancie when people comment on your opinions if you don't like the comments - accusing people of having it in for you because they don't like you or of trying to undermine you. :shrug: Waste of time. You only hear what you want to hear. Your mindset is set in stone just as you accuse others of.

Are you suffering from memory loss, Brillo?

I stated my opinion and it was Jaxie that couldn't handle it and you backed her up. Everything you accuse me off, you are guilty of and more but you lack the self awareness to see it.

I stated my opinion that the public were largely ignorant and you and Jaxie went on the attack since you couldn't handle my opinion because you try to shut down any opinion that's different from your own.

[Kizzy]

Why is LSE giving promos to buzzfeed not the financial times or another broadsheet?

Curiouser and curiouser... :/

[JTM45]

Why is LSE giving promos to buzzfeed not the financial times or another broadsheet?

Curiouser and curiouser... :/

The whole 'study' seems to just confirm that most people are still very confused about the facts and unaware of the real implications of Brexit.

There was only 3000 people involved in this too which really isn't enough to come to any clear conclusion, especially when we don't know who the people were and how they came to take part in this.

The fact that leavers are so terrified of any possibility of another referendum says a lot about how the first result was obtained. They just use the old ''not respecting democracy blah'' line when, if they were really interested in real democracy then they'd welcome avote now that people are at least slightly more aware of the facts, or at least those whopping lies used to convince many of the need to leave the EU have been well and truly debunked.

We can also back out of Brexit at any point before it's been completed, which will be years.............if it even happens at all.

[Brillopad]

The whole 'study' seems to just confirm that most people are still very confused about the facts and unaware of the real implications of Brexit.

There was only 3000 people involved in this too which really isn't enough to come to any clear conclusion, especially when we don't know who the people were and how they came to take part in this.

The fact that leavers are so terrified of any possibility of another referendum says a lot about how the first result was obtained. They just use the old ''not respecting democracy blah'' line when, if they were really interested in real democracy then they'd welcome avote now that people are at least slightly more aware of the facts, or at least those whopping lies used to convince many of the need to leave the EU have been well and truly debunked.

We can also back out of Brexit at any point before it's been completed, which will be years.............if it even happens at all.

Your respect for democracy, or rather lack of it when it suits, is clear, although no doubt if the referendum had gone your way and the leavers were wanting a second referendum it would be a different story.

Maybe from now on we should all call for a second vote every time we elect a new priminister if we don't like the result. Or maybe a third would be fairer - best of three and all that. Why stop there - we could just keep demanding repeat votes to kingdom come until we get our own way, but then the other side would demand another ...

You are living in cloud cuckoo land - it won't happen. There would be a public uproar not to mention the future implications for public votes. We were informed - if you and whoever else didn't bother to listen - lesson learned which is clearly a bitter pill to swallow.

Speaking of buying into lies - the subject of clearing student debt comes to mind - you know those ones that did get all those youngsters, who didn't bother to vote in the referendum, to finally listen. Too little too late.

[JTM45]

Your respect for democracy, or rather lack of it when it suits, is clear, although no doubt if the referendum had gone your way and the leavers were wanting a second referendum it would be a different story.


You're just making it up as you go along! :laugh:

This is SUCH an important subject where people were at best poorly informed and, at worst, repeatedly lied to on key issues that helped them decide how they were going to vote.

Once this has happened there'll be no going back on it so, in the true spirit of democracy, why would you have a problem with a better informed UK population making sure they are doing the right thing before taking such a MASSIVE step that, if it doesn't go well, could destroy our economy completely ? Why wouldn't you want to be sure and give people the chance, now that they know that some major selling points used by the leave side were nothing more than lies made up to make their case look stronger ? Denying people that opportunity would be completely un-democratic. Or would you rather go with a result that could have come about through dishonest means just because those lies got you the result you wanted ?

[Brillopad]

You're just making it up as you go along! :laugh:

This is SUCH an important subject where people were at best poorly informed and, at worst, repeatedly lied to on key issues that helped them decide how they were going to vote.

Once this has happened there'll be no going back on it so, in the true spirit of democracy, why would you have a problem with a better informed UK population making sure they are doing the right thing before taking such a MASSIVE step that, if it doesn't go well, could destroy our economy completely ? Why wouldn't you want to be sure and give people the chance, now that they know that some major selling points used by the leave side were nothing more than lies made up to make their case look stronger ? Denying people that opportunity would be completely un-democratic. Or would you rather go with a result that could have come about through dishonest means just because those lies got you the result you wanted ?

The true spirit of democracy has already occurred. You can try to manipulate the word all you like - changes nothing, and will change nothing. Very weak attempt at emotional blackmail, but the level of. desperation is painfully clear.

Those 'lies' had nothing to do with my vote. Most probably made up their minds long before. You are making a lot of assumptions out of desperation.

[JTM45]

The true spirit of democracy has already occurred. You can try to manipulate the word all you like - changes nothing, and will change nothing. Very weak attempt at emotional blackmail, but the level of. desperation is painfully clear.

Those 'lies' had nothing to do with my vote. Most probably made up their minds long before. You are making a lot of assumptions out of desperation.

You clearly don't understand what 'Democracy' is then!

I know people who voted leave because of the lies spread by the leave campaign that £350 million a week would go directly into the NHS instead of to the EU.

You do realize that at any point up until Brexit is completed we can change our minds do you ? It's part of the terms and there's a very good chance, with the increasing uncertainty and nervousness that's building, that Brexit won't even happen.

Don't you care about the economy of our Country ?
I have nothingto personally gain by Brexit not happening but i don't want to see our Country ruined.

[jennyjuniper]

https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing?utm_term=.lxQZ06jX4#.txJrdw3Mb

This seemed obvious for a while now despite attempts by some to suggest otherwise. People respecting a public vote despite not entirely agreeing with leaving the EU is admirable and what democracy is all about. :Dance2:

Welcome back Brillopad. I've missed you.:wavey:

[Brillopad]

Welcome back Brillopad. I've missed you.:wavey:

Thank you Jenny!

[Brillopad]

You clearly don't understand what 'Democracy' is then!

I know people who voted leave because of the lies spread by the leave campaign that £350 million a week would go directly into the NHS instead of to the EU.

You do realize that at any point up until Brexit is completed we can change our minds do you ? It's part of the terms and there's a very good chance, with the increasing uncertainty and nervousness that's building, that Brexit won't even happen.

Don't you care about the economy of our Country ?
I have nothingto personally gain by Brexit not happening but i don't want to see our Country ruined.

That comes down to viewpoint and who you believe. I have seen as many expert positive views of the effects of leaving the EU as I have the negative views (excluding all the obvious scaremongering).

The negative views are not proven facts - they are opinions depending on who has to gain from what. Self-interest is always top of the priorities of many.

[JTM45]

Like talking to a brick wall..............that's about to fall down.

[jaxie]

Like talking to a brick wall..............that's about to fall down.

You are peddling a fantasy based on hot air.
Eventually you'll see the world isn't going to end when we leave the EU.
You are the one who doesn't understand democracy. It is the rule of majority, in this case the majority who voted leave. It isn't the rule of let's keep voting until I get my way. That's dictatorship.

[JTM45]

The ''fantasy based on hot air'' was that we'd save £350 million a week that would go directly back into the NHS when we left the EU. It was actually a full-on lie!

Democracy is NOT ''the rule of majority''. Talk about 'the blind leading the blind'.:laugh:

Democracy; a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

You just want to grasp onto a referedum result that was gained by the use of lies and ignorance.
If you didn't you'd have no problem with people voting now that they are better informed on the possible detrimental consequences of leaving the EU and now that they know that lies were used by the leave campaign which has been admitted.

[DemolitionRed]

A gentle reminder to those moaning about ‘democracy’. In this year’s GE the Tories not only lost their majority, but the British people also rejected their Hard Brexit.
When people voted yay or neigh for Brexit, they weren’t asked to vote on a ‘hard’ or ‘soft’ Brexit. A simple ‘stay’ or ‘leave’ sufficed and that’s why people who voted out have every right to be ****ing annoyed.

Here's (http://http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservatives-theresa-may-eu-law-great-repeal-bill-henry-viii-powers-house-of-commons-a7891266.html) yet another example, if any were needed, showing how Brexit aka The Government is falling apart.

To all those hardline Brexiteers determined to see as much damage done to the British economy as possible. Get a grip and start reminding yourself, this is not a fcuking pantomime.

[Tom4784]

Your respect for democracy, or rather lack of it when it suits, is clear, although no doubt if the referendum had gone your way and the leavers were wanting a second referendum it would be a different story.

Maybe from now on we should all call for a second vote every time we elect a new priminister if we don't like the result. Or maybe a third would be fairer - best of three and all that. Why stop there - we could just keep demanding repeat votes to kingdom come until we get our own way, but then the other side would demand another ...

You are living in cloud cuckoo land - it won't happen. There would be a public uproar not to mention the future implications for public votes. We were informed - if you and whoever else didn't bother to listen - lesson learned which is clearly a bitter pill to swallow.

Speaking of buying into lies - the subject of clearing student debt comes to mind - you know those ones that did get all those youngsters, who didn't bother to vote in the referendum, to finally listen. Too little too late.

Ah the ol' 'if you don't think the way I do, you don't respect democracy' bit.

[Brillopad]

Ah the ol' 'if you don't think the way I do, you don't respect democracy' bit.

Tell that to the person who I responded to who tried accusing me of that.

Of course you won't as you only target those whose views you disagree with despite others making the same comments.

[jaxie]

The truth is that we haven't left the EU yet so all the above gloom and doom are just assumptions about what might happen when we do leave. None of it is fact. Those opposed to leaving keep harping on about the claims over money saved from the EU and yet we are not at that stage of leaving yet so how they can possibly know what any cash saved will be spent on? There is as much truth in complaining about it not happening as there is in the claim in the first place. Just the same as fear mongering about the demise of the economy when there aren't any factual signs it will happen.

[Brillopad]

A gentle reminder to those moaning about ‘democracy’. In this year’s GE the Tories not only lost their majority, but the British people also rejected their Hard Brexit.
When people voted yay or neigh for Brexit, they weren’t asked to vote on a ‘hard’ or ‘soft’ Brexit. A simple ‘stay’ or ‘leave’ sufficed and that’s why people who voted out have every right to be ****ing annoyed.

Here's (http://http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservatives-theresa-may-eu-law-great-repeal-bill-henry-viii-powers-house-of-commons-a7891266.html) yet another example, if any were needed, showing how Brexit aka The Government is falling apart.

To all those hardline Brexiteers determined to see as much damage done to the British economy as possible. Get a grip and start reminding yourself, this is not a fcuking pantomime.

Aren't you a Corbyn supporter. You do understand he wants a hard line Brexit don't you. He would be the one most likely to destroy our economy in more ways than one - spend, spend, spend, open borders, higher taxes - he would have a field day.

[Kizzy]

Aren't you a Corbyn supporter. You do understand he wants a hard line Brexit don't you. He would be the one most likely to destroy our economy in more ways than one - spend, spend, spend, open borders, higher taxes - he would have a field day.

Has brexit suggested closed borders, no spending or low taxes?... no :/

[jaxie]

A gentle reminder to those moaning about ‘democracy’. In this year’s GE the Tories not only lost their majority, but the British people also rejected their Hard Brexit.
When people voted yay or neigh for Brexit, they weren’t asked to vote on a ‘hard’ or ‘soft’ Brexit. A simple ‘stay’ or ‘leave’ sufficed and that’s why people who voted out have every right to be ****ing annoyed.

Here's (http://http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservatives-theresa-may-eu-law-great-repeal-bill-henry-viii-powers-house-of-commons-a7891266.html) yet another example, if any were needed, showing how Brexit aka The Government is falling apart.

To all those hardline Brexiteers determined to see as much damage done to the British economy as possible. Get a grip and start reminding yourself, this is not a fcuking pantomime.

I'm confused, you voted to leave, that's what you stated on this forum at the time, and now you asking those who voted to leave to get a grip? Hardline Brexit is a myth. There is leaving and there is staying in the EU in some form. I can't see why that is so hard to fathom. We voted to leave, not to be half in and half out.

I don't vote Tory and I couldn't give a stuff about the government losing it's majority. They led a crap campaign it backfired on them. Labour on the other hand led a surprisingly good campaign. The Tories probably won't last very long without a leader change and another election. Don't fool yourself it was a rejection of Brexit, it was far more a rejection of the manifesto. Had there been a genuine rejection of Brexit the lib dems would be in power. I have no idea why you are trying to pretend Brexit and the government are the same thing. Even that idiot Corbyn supports Brexit.

[jaxie]

The ''fantasy based on hot air'' was that we'd save £350 million a week that would go directly back into the NHS when we left the EU. It was actually a full-on lie!

Democracy is NOT ''the rule of majority''. Talk about 'the blind leading the blind'.:laugh:

Democracy; a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.

You just want to grasp onto a referedum result that was gained by the use of lies and ignorance.
If you didn't you'd have no problem with people voting now that they are better informed on the possible detrimental consequences of leaving the EU and now that they know that lies were used by the leave campaign which has been admitted.

Democrasy is a system of government based on majority rule via votes. Take it up with the dictionary about democracy. Obvs you know more than they.

Clearly you aren't better informed for another vote since you oppose Brexit.

[jaxie]

Tell that to the person who I responded to who tried accusing me of that.

Of course you won't as you only target those whose views you disagree with despite others making the same comments.

:thumbs:

[Toy Soldier]

Democrasy is a system of government based on majority rule via votes. Take it up with the dictionary about democracy. Obvs you know more than they.

Clearly you aren't better informed since you oppose Brexit.

Opposition, counter-politics and protest have been essential pillars of democracy since its infancy in ancient Greece... it's built into the very theory of democracy itself.

I'd suggest, jaxie, that if you want to understand democracy you might need to go a little further than "The dictionary". I'd say start with Aristotle and Plato's "Republic", then work your way up through modern political theory.

I don't know if this is "horribly patronising OMG" or whatever, I also don't particularly care... the idea that you can define and grasp a complex and vast political theory like modern democracy via a two-line dictionary definition is utterly ridiculous :facepalm:.

[jaxie]

Opposition, counter-politics and protest have been essential pillars of democracy since its infancy in ancient Greece... it's built into the very theory of democracy itself.

I'd suggest, jaxie, that if you want to understand democracy you might need to go a little further than "The dictionary". I'd say start with Aristotle and Plato's "Republic", then work your way up through modern political theory.

I don't know if this is "horribly patronising OMG" or whatever, I also don't particularly care... the idea that you can define and grasp a complex and vast political theory like modern democracy via a two-line dictionary definition is utterly ridiculous :facepalm:.

You are out of context. You seem to have a thing for me TS. :flutter: I clearly rattle your cage. :thumbs:

[Kizzy]

Democrasy is a system of government based on majority rule via votes. Take it up with the dictionary about democracy. Obvs you know more than they.

Clearly you aren't better informed for another vote since you oppose Brexit.

democracy

the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/democracy

[Kizzy]

''The researchers released their finding as an “exclusive” to a single news source – Buzzfeed – on Friday which then presented the findings with a heavy dose of analysis from one of the authors but with no substantive explanation of the methodology.

Buzzfeed also presented the findings in a series of charts which gave the appearance that they were showing levels of support for various propositions in the manner of a conventional opinion poll. Confusion was added by the fact that the headline findings presented by Buzzfeed did pertain to rough percentages of the population.

The result was that most journalists - including the Independent's - followed up the Buzzfeed story without fully grasping the methodology.

The researchers did make details of their methodology available on Friday and Saturday to journalists that requested it.

Yet they did not publish the full document online until Sunday afternoon, meaning that for the best part of two days statisticians and the general public were unable to access it and had to rely on partial and flawed media reports.''


In other words, it's total bollocks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-report-latest-remainers-deport-eu-citizens-uk-back-hard-european-union-study-explained-a7892216.html

[jaxie]

democracy

the belief in freedom and equality between people, or a system of government based on this belief, in which power is either held by elected representatives or directly by the people themselves:

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/democracy

Same thing really, try the Oxford English Dictionary where it points out this is via a majority. You are going to inflate my ego if you keep singling me out to dissect everything I say. :wavey:

[Kizzy]

Same thing really, try the Oxford English Dictionary where it points out this is via a majority. You are going to inflate my ego if you keep singling me out to dissect everything I say. :wavey:

You asked for a dictionary definition, I gave you one, don't shoot the messenger.

[jaxie]

You asked for a dictionary definition, I gave you one, don't shoot the messenger.

I didn't ask but thanks for making me feel super important and special and pointing out the impact I have on you with my posts.

[Toy Soldier]

You are out of context. You seem to have a thing for me TS. :flutter:It's not out of context at all. You believe that opposing Brexit is undemocratic. You are incorrect.

[Jack_]

Yeah I really am ****ing sick of the 'you have no respect for democracy' crap. The irony is that in expressing that, one is...not respecting other people's democratic right to freedom of speech, expression and to protest :laugh2:

Democracy does not begin and end at the ballot box. We have referenda and elections and parties and outcomes win and lose. That doesn't mean that all opposition must then be silenced, because in a democracy people are entitled to disagree and continue to campaign for what they believe in. Indeed, everyone's favourite Champion of the People Wanker-Banker Nigel Farage said in the days before the referendum that a 52/48 victory for remain would be 'unfinished business'. It's convenient how people who voted to leave forget that :hehe:

[jaxie]

It's not out of context at all. You believe that opposing Brexit is undemocratic. You are incorrect.

This is where you have a problem because I have never said that or anything like it so you are misquoting me. :shrug: It was another poster who stated it was undemocratic unless there is a second referendum. I have no issues with people in opposition or campaigning but suggesting we should keep voting until we get the answer you want is certainly not democracy.

What I do believe is that it is undemocratic to demand another referendum if you don't like the result but that seems to be a core of Scottish politics so maybe that's why you are supporting that view. I also believe it is undemocratic to put our country into a political experiment and putting treaties into law without asking the people who signed up for a trading market once in 40 years. Not to mention unelected officials making laws for us from Brussels.

[jaxie]

Yeah I really am ****ing sick of the 'you have no respect for democracy' crap. The irony is that in expressing that, one is...not respecting other people's democratic right to freedom of speech, expression and to protest :laugh2:

Democracy does not begin and end at the ballot box. We have referenda and elections and parties and outcomes win and lose. That doesn't mean that all opposition must then be silenced, because in a democracy people are entitled to disagree and continue to campaign for what they believe in. Indeed, everyone's favourite Champion of the People Wanker-Banker Nigel Farage said in the days before the referendum that a 52/48 victory for remain would be 'unfinished business'. It's convenient how people who voted to leave forget that :hehe:

Democracy isn't something you can shape so it only works for your point of view. Before you start your rant actually read who brought up democracy and in what context. No one has ever said there should be no campaigning. I don't care what Farage said or didn't say he is no longer relevant.

[Kizzy]

I didn't ask but thanks for making me feel super important and special and pointing out the impact I have on you with my posts.

You suggested queries were taken up with a dictionary... I did that, it didn't correspond with your definition.

It's a debate, your posts are as important as the next persons, no more no less.

[DemolitionRed]

Aren't you a Corbyn supporter. You do understand he wants a hard line Brexit don't you. He would be the one most likely to destroy our economy in more ways than one - spend, spend, spend, open borders, higher taxes - he would have a field day.

You are kidding me?!? Just because I support a lot of Corbyn politics doesn't mean I agree with everything he does. I'm left leaning and I take an active interest in politics from both sides... that's it!

As for your following sentence, it comes without content... its just waffle.

[jaxie]

You suggested queries were taken up with a dictionary... I did that, it didn't correspond with your definition.

It's a debate, your posts are as important as the next persons, no more no less.

Oh you are suggesting democracy is decided by the minority vote then? I had no idea it worked that way. Thanks for educating us all and here I was thinking a first past the post system had been working in this country for generations. :shrug:

[Tom4784]

Tell that to the person who I responded to who tried accusing me of that.

Of course you won't as you only target those whose views you disagree with despite others making the same comments.

I think, like usual, you completely misunderstood his post because you saw what you wanted to see and not what he actually wrote. You also don't understand democracy. People ARE allowed to change their minds, hell we changed our minds about staying in the EU with this referendum, did we not?

Democratic decisions aren't written in stone, if that was the case then why have an election every few years? It's so we can change our minds about the leadership if we wish to do so.

You believe that someone not being happy about a result is 'undemocratic' which is quite simply bull**** and it's just you trying to silence opposing opinions again. People are allowed to be unhappy and voice their opinions, people are allowed to ask for another referendum and, if enough people agree to it then it should go ahead as that's pretty much how the first referendum came to be. You only seem to believe in your own warped version of what democracy is when it suits your agenda, you aren't willing to extend the same rights that allowed this referendum to occur to people of an oposing point of view.

I personally don't want another referendum. They say that, if a dog makes a mess, you should rub their nose in it and they'll learn not to do it again. The Leavers made a catastrophic decision and they should be made to experience the messy results of their terrible choices. Leavers shouldn't get a get out of jail free card in the form of another referendum. They ****ed up, they pay the price. The UK on the brink of collapse will hopefully get people to be smarter when it comes to political choices in the future.

[Tom4784]

Yeah I really am ****ing sick of the 'you have no respect for democracy' crap. The irony is that in expressing that, one is...not respecting other people's democratic right to freedom of speech, expression and to protest :laugh2:

Democracy does not begin and end at the ballot box. We have referenda and elections and parties and outcomes win and lose. That doesn't mean that all opposition must then be silenced, because in a democracy people are entitled to disagree and continue to campaign for what they believe in. Indeed, everyone's favourite Champion of the People Wanker-Banker Nigel Farage said in the days before the referendum that a 52/48 victory for remain would be 'unfinished business'. It's convenient how people who voted to leave forget that :hehe:

It's endlessly hypocritical, they want the benefits of freedom of speech, expression and all those other rights....just as long as it doesn't apply to people who don't share their point of view.

[Kizzy]

Oh you are suggesting democracy is decided by the minority vote then? I had no idea it worked that way. Thanks for educating us all and here I was thinking a first past the post system had been working in this country for generations. :shrug:

I haven't suggested anything , you're putting words in my mouth :nono:

[Toy Soldier]

This is where you have a problem because I have never said that or anything like it so you are misquoting me. :shrug: It was another poster who stated it was undemocratic unless there is a second referendum. I have no issues with people in opposition or campaigning but suggesting we should keep voting until we get the answer you want is certainly not democracy.

What I do believe is that it is undemocratic to demand another referendum if you don't like the result but that seems to be a core of Scottish politics so maybe that's why you are supporting that view. I also believe it is undemocratic to put our country into a political experiment and putting treaties into law without asking the people who signed up for a trading market once in 40 years. Not to mention unelected officials making laws for us from Brussels.Frequently repeating a vote until the outcome changes would be undemocratic. Holding a second vote after sufficient time for dust to settle, and if there is an indication that there may have been a shift in public opinion, is ENTIRELY democratic.

You would have a point if there were to be 3 "out" votes with repeated votes, then one "in" vote and they stop. In fact, ONE follow up vote showing the same result should be sufficient to prove that the result truly reflects the situation.

But if a slim out vote was to be followed up by a resounding in vote? How is it in any way democratic to go with the result of one just because "it was first!". It's very childish, "finders-keepers!" logic.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm confused, you voted to leave, that's what you stated on this forum at the time, and now you asking those who voted to leave to get a grip? Hardline Brexit is a myth. There is leaving and there is staying in the EU in some form. I can't see why that is so hard to fathom. We voted to leave, not to be half in and half out.

Because when I voted out, I believed ‘Brexit meant Brexit’ but in the aftermath of that vote, we’ve all had the opportunity to educate, speculate and discuss the sort of relationship we want to keep or abandon with Europe. There’s a myriad of possibilities and those possibilities are now categorized as hard or soft options.

What has become clear is, we are about to jump from one ship and join another. We are swapping one trade deal with the EU for another with America but this new trade deal is much bigger and much more ominous than anything we’ve ever had with the EU. The only way we can shake hands with Trump is to abandon all free trade with Europe. That’s the ‘hard’ option... the one you want and the one I don't want.


I don't vote Tory and I couldn't give a stuff about the government losing it's majority. They led a crap campaign it backfired on them. Labour on the other hand led a surprisingly good campaign. The Tories probably won't last very long without a leader change and another election. Don't fool yourself it was a rejection of Brexit, it was far more a rejection of the manifesto. Had there been a genuine rejection of Brexit the lib dems would be in power. I have no idea why you are trying to pretend Brexit and the government are the same thing. Even that idiot Corbyn supports Brexit.

I never said the Cons did badly because of Brexit :conf: I suggested voters don't like the way we are being frog marched out without a deal that will best suit our economy.

[Brillopad]

''The researchers released their finding as an “exclusive” to a single news source – Buzzfeed – on Friday which then presented the findings with a heavy dose of analysis from one of the authors but with no substantive explanation of the methodology.

Buzzfeed also presented the findings in a series of charts which gave the appearance that they were showing levels of support for various propositions in the manner of a conventional opinion poll. Confusion was added by the fact that the headline findings presented by Buzzfeed did pertain to rough percentages of the population.

The result was that most journalists - including the Independent's - followed up the Buzzfeed story without fully grasping the methodology.

The researchers did make details of their methodology available on Friday and Saturday to journalists that requested it.

Yet they did not publish the full document online until Sunday afternoon, meaning that for the best part of two days statisticians and the general public were unable to access it and had to rely on partial and flawed media reports.''


In other words, it's total bollocks.

http://www.independent.co.uk/infact/brexit-report-latest-remainers-deport-eu-citizens-uk-back-hard-european-union-study-explained-a7892216.html

The Independent, what a surprise. Biased rubbish.

[DemolitionRed]

The Independent, what a surprise. Biased rubbish.

It was reported by The Independent and numerous other papers but the source came from Buzzfeed https://www.buzzfeed.com/jamesball/remain-and-leave-voters-are-surprisingly-united-on-backing?utm_term=.pfKAEjpjj#.ax5B6YMYY

It is a legitimate source and probably not one you wanted because it exposes quite a number of things.

[jaxie]

Because when I voted out, I believed ‘Brexit meant Brexit’ but in the aftermath of that vote, we’ve all had the opportunity to educate, speculate and discuss the sort of relationship we want to keep or abandon with Europe. There’s a myriad of possibilities and those possibilities are now categorized as hard or soft options.

What has become clear is, we are about to jump from one ship and join another. We are swapping one trade deal with the EU for another with America but this new trade deal is much bigger and much more ominous than anything we’ve ever had with the EU. The only way we can shake hands with Trump is to abandon all free trade with Europe. That’s the ‘hard’ option... the one you want and the one I don't want.



I never said the Cons did badly because of Brexit :conf: I suggested voters don't like the way we are being frog marched out without a deal that will best suit our economy.

If you believed Brexit was Brexit then you should understand that Brexit means British exit. You exit by leaving with both feet and closing the door behind you, you don't exit by leaving the door open and standing in the doorway.

There is no hard or soft option there two options, stay or leave. We voted to leave.

[Oliver_W]

The ''fantasy based on hot air'' was that we'd save £350 million a week that would go directly back into the NHS when we left the EU. It was actually a full-on lie!
It wasn't a lie though. It was made by Farage, who wasn't and isn't in a position to dictate policy. It was a suggestion.

[Kizzy]

The Independent, what a surprise. Biased rubbish.

:joker: yeah, your buzzfeed article gets discredited and it's the indys fault :/

[JTM45]

It wasn't a lie though. It was made by Farage, who wasn't and isn't in a position to dictate policy. It was a suggestion.

Wrong AGAIN!!!! :shrug:
There was never the option or possibility of £350 million being given to the NHS but the Leave Campaign toured the country with a bus with this claim splashed on its side. Boris used it as an event backdrop. It was a ''suggestion'' that was based on fantasy and was never an option. It was a lie.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-8DnEoHhD4qk/V3Of1WBB40I/AAAAAAAABx8/wYQIC6hfC9Mn3h_LQjvxONaOcPLpWtsmQCLcB/s1600/Vote%2BLeave%2B350%2Bmillion%2BNHS%2Blie%2Bexcuses .jpg

[Brillopad]

If you believed Brexit was Brexit then you should understand that Brexit means British exit. You exit by leaving with both feet and closing the door behind you, you don't exit by leaving the door open and standing in the doorway.

There is no hard or soft option there two options, stay or leave. We voted to leave.

100% correct Jaxie!

Remoaners just want to stall and reverse the process. The behaviour of remoaners over Brexit is sickening. They are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition to get what they want and even attempt to deny their clear lack of respect for a public vote.

It is all about them and what they want regardless of the vote with the painfully weak argument that people didn't know what they were voting for. Cringeworthy!!!

[JTM45]

From the Independent;
'Brexit: Support for a second EU referendum is growing, finds poll'
According to the results, more people also believed Brexit would have a 'negative' rather than 'positive' impact on the British economy.

Support is growing for a second European Union referendum once the final terms of the Brexit deal are clear, according to a new poll that suggests a third of the public now back the proposition.

The survey by ICM pollsters for the Guardian found that momentum is growing around idea of a second referendum – advocated by the Liberal Democrats and the Green party – to hold another vote in two years’ time when ministers present the final deal on Britain’s exit to the public.

When respondents were provided with the statement “a second referendum to allow people to decide whether the UK leaves or not, based on the outcome of the negotiations”, 32 per cent said they agreed – a six point increase on the same survey six months’ ago.

The poll came after David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, entered the second round of negotiations in Brussels but was criticised for taking part in less than a hour of discussions with Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator. Shortly after declaring it was “time to get back to work”, Mr Davis had returned to London.

According to the results, more people also believed Brexit would have a “negative” rather than “positive” impact on the British economy, with 42 per cent and 29 per cent respectively.

[Brillopad]

From the Independent;

The Independent are the biggest remoaners of all. They twist for all they are worth to present 'journalism' of the one-sided kind.

btw - The whole article rather than a snippet would be preferable. Gives a clearer picture.

[JTM45]

As far as i'm aware it was the whole article.

You're hardly in a position to criticize anyone's sources considering what you quote and from where. Buzzfeed my ass! :laugh:

We will not be leaving the EU in anything but a symbolical manner (if at all). Believe.
The government are going to take notice of the Banks and Industry over a minority of the British public.

[DemolitionRed]

If you believed Brexit was Brexit then you should understand that Brexit means British exit. You exit by leaving with both feet and closing the door behind you, you don't exit by leaving the door open and standing in the doorway.

There is no hard or soft option there two options, stay or leave. We voted to leave.

You need to pay attention and stop being so pedantic. Do you want to discuss the realities of this political decision on how we exit and fruitfully exist outside Europe or do you want to continue pigeonholing the dictionary definition in an attempt to win an argument at any cost? If it’s the later then I refuse to entertain you further.

[DemolitionRed]

100% correct Jaxie!

Remoaners just want to stall and reverse the process. The behaviour of remoaners over Brexit is sickening. They are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition to get what they want and even attempt to deny their clear lack of respect for a public vote.

It is all about them and what they want regardless of the vote with the painfully weak argument that people didn't know what they were voting for. Cringeworthy!!!

By ‘remoaner’ I assume you mean someone who wishes to remain? and as you quoted Jaxie’s reply to me, your reply, in part is at me. I didn’t vote to remain. I have no desire to remain or reverse the process.

Please explain what you mean by “they are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition” Tell us what clarity we had about Brexit before we voted and then think, if you can spare the time, how that process has changed. Of course people didn’t know what they were voting for. Some naively believed it was going to stop immigrants coming in! others, like me, believed it was going to halt America's shenanigans on our shores and some believed it was going to rescue our NHS and guess what, we were wrong. But even then, even after it dawned on us that we’d been had, most of us still accepted the democratic vote… but we did and rightly so, want a process put in place (at the time there was no real process. All of that came later) that would safeguard our businesses, our human rights, our children’s futures and a better future outside Europe. Don't you want that too.. don't you?

You may well cringe at these people, and you may have the audacity to call them names and spit your naive bile at them whilst appearing not to know or understand any of the complexities of Brexit options. You just want to walk out, close the door and be done and anyone who doesn’t think like you are unpatriotic, undemocratic and foolish.

Yeah right!

[Brillopad]

As far as i'm aware it was the whole article.

You're hardly in a position to criticize anyone's sources considering what you quote and from where. Buzzfeed my ass! :laugh:

We will not be leaving the EU in anything but a symbolical manner (if at all). Believe.
The government are going to take notice of the Banks and Industry over a minority of the British public.


That was my first ever quote from buzzfeed. But the source is was taking its information from was good- hence why I quoted it.

As for the rest of it - wishful thinking?

[Kizzy]

That was my first ever quote from buzzfeed. But the source is was taking its information from was good- hence why I quoted it.

As for the rest of it - wishful thinking?

The data was misinterpreted, strangely it was the very part you based this thread on that 29% of remainers now want EU members to leave... They don't.

[jaxie]

You need to pay attention and stop being so pedantic. Do you want to discuss the realities of this political decision on how we exit and fruitfully exist outside Europe or do you want to continue pigeonholing the dictionary definition in an attempt to win an argument at any cost? If it’s the later then I refuse to entertain you further.

Nice deflect. What has the dictionary got to do with it? I was discussing the realities of what it means to exit, which you voted for. :shrug: That's the reality it's not about how you exit. You exit and negotiate a new relationship based on the fact you are no longer a member. We exist fruitfully outside the EU in similar way to the rest of the world who aren't members of the EU. You don't have to respond to me to entertain me. The idea that because we are leaving the EU that children will have no future and business will die is just scaremongering.

[Brillopad]

The data was misinterpreted, strangely it was the very part you based this thread on that 29% of remainers now want EU members to leave... They don't.

Says who - the Independent? Gospel then.

[Kizzy]

Says who - the Independent? Gospel then.

No, the statisticians who have analysed the data sets ... You really mustn't let your prejudice against the Independent colour your view here brillo.

[Tom4784]

100% correct Jaxie!

Remoaners just want to stall and reverse the process. The behaviour of remoaners over Brexit is sickening. They are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition to get what they want and even attempt to deny their clear lack of respect for a public vote.

It is all about them and what they want regardless of the vote with the painfully weak argument that people didn't know what they were voting for. Cringeworthy!!!

Didn't you get on a high horse about my opinion of voters? Do you completely lack any self awareness? Because acting self righteous over me saying that most voters vote in ignorance and saying that I shouldn't say things like that and THEN spouting that bull**** about Remainers is so hypocritical that I cannot believe you are unaware of it.

Don't take the moral high ground if you aren't willing to commit to it yourself, Brillo.

[Brillopad]

Didn't you get on a high horse about my opinion of voters? Do you completely lack any self awareness? Because acting self righteous over me saying that most voters vote in ignorance and saying that I shouldn't say things like that and THEN spouting that bull**** about Remainers is so hypocritical that I cannot believe you are unaware of it.

Don't take the moral high ground if you aren't willing to commit to it yourself, Brillo.

Maybe I have just decided to do unto others as they do unto me. What don't you like a taste of your own medicine? What a shock!

You talk of self awareness - really. You are the very last person I would take seriously when spouting a comment like that. :hehe:

[Tom4784]

Maybe I have just decided to do unto others as they do unto me. What don't you like a taste of your own medicine? What a shock!

You talk of self awareness - really. You are the very last person I would take seriously when spouting a comment like that. :hehe:

Ah, so you take the moral high ground towards people you disagree with when it suits you but you never intend to actually hold yourself to those same standards. It's a bit like your attitude towards human rights and freedom of speech isn't it? You only want them to apply to people who share your views and no one else.

Trying to reflect it back at me doesn't work since I didn't get on a high horse and act offended in order to discredit opposing opinions in the first place but you and Jaxie did in response to what I said. Reflecting would only work if I took the moral high ground to begin with so commiserations on another failed attempt to one up me.

[jaxie]

Ah, so you take the moral high ground towards people you disagree with when it suits you but you never intend to actually hold yourself to those same standards. It's a bit like your attitude towards human rights and freedom of speech isn't it? You only want them to apply to people who share your views and no one else.

Trying to reflect it back at me doesn't work since I didn't get on a high horse and act offended in order to discredit opposing opinions in the first place but you and Jaxie did in response to what I said. Reflecting would only work if I took the moral high ground to begin with so commiserations on another failed attempt to one up me.

Since you brought me up while on your high horse, read everything you said and then apply to self.

[DemolitionRed]

Nice deflect. What has the dictionary got to do with it? I was discussing the realities of what it means to exit, which you voted for. :shrug: That's the reality it's not about how you exit. You exit and negotiate a new relationship based on the fact you are no longer a member. We exist fruitfully outside the EU in similar way to the rest of the world who aren't members of the EU. You don't have to respond to me to entertain me. The idea that because we are leaving the EU that children will have no future and business will die is just scaremongering.

Just accept that your realities are very different to mine. If you think walking through that exit door is all going to come together like milk and honey, just keep telling yourself that.

[Brillopad]

Ah, so you take the moral high ground towards people you disagree with when it suits you but you never intend to actually hold yourself to those same standards. It's a bit like your attitude towards human rights and freedom of speech isn't it? You only want them to apply to people who share your views and no one else.

Trying to reflect it back at me doesn't work since I didn't get on a high horse and act offended in order to discredit opposing opinions in the first place but you and Jaxie did in response to what I said. Reflecting would only work if I took the moral high ground to begin with so commiserations on another failed attempt to one up me.

You take the moral high ground all the time - you just don't see it. It's that lack of self awareness I was referring to. :shrug:

[Brillopad]

No, the statisticians who have analysed the data sets ... You really mustn't let your prejudice against the Independent colour your view here brillo.

And your obsessive prejudice against the Mail!!! You even wanted to ban it from the forum. Pot and kettle! :shrug:

[Kizzy]

And your obsessive prejudice against the Mail!!! You even wanted to ban it from the forum. Pot and kettle! :shrug:

What has this to do with me or the mail?... Nothing.

Am I to excuse you from your bias against the independent due to my dislike of the daily mail?

[Brillopad]

By ‘remoaner’ I assume you mean someone who wishes to remain? and as you quoted Jaxie’s reply to me, your reply, in part is at me. I didn’t vote to remain. I have no desire to remain or reverse the process.

Please explain what you mean by “they are determined to twist Brexit out of all recognition” Tell us what clarity we had about Brexit before we voted and then think, if you can spare the time, how that process has changed. Of course people didn’t know what they were voting for. Some naively believed it was going to stop immigrants coming in! others, like me, believed it was going to halt America's shenanigans on our shores and some believed it was going to rescue our NHS and guess what, we were wrong. But even then, even after it dawned on us that we’d been had, most of us still accepted the democratic vote… but we did and rightly so, want a process put in place (at the time there was no real process. All of that came later) that would safeguard our businesses, our human rights, our children’s futures and a better future outside Europe. Don't you want that too.. don't you?

You may well cringe at these people, and you may have the audacity to call them names and spit your naive bile at them whilst appearing not to know or understand any of the complexities of Brexit options. You just want to walk out, close the door and be done and anyone who doesn’t think like you are unpatriotic, undemocratic and foolish.

Yeah right!

By remoaners I mean the refusal of some to accept the vote. People of course are entitled to want to remain, just as others are entitled to want to leave - the issue is about those that keep sulking because the vote didn't go the way they wanted it to and who keep trying to sabotage a public vote.

The decision to leave has been made and we now have to get on with the finer points of the process - and no that does not mean staying in the EU and trying to dress it up as a soft Brexit. Brexit was about leaving the EU not about keeping one foot in it and keeping our options open.

And yes I am aware of the potential problems, the complexities as you put it thank you, but Nothing worth having comes easy. There are plenty of countries wanting to trade with us as And a lot of support from other countries. Whether you want to admit it or not there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the EU and its controlling policies from many other European countries and unless it changes its stance I believe it has had its day.

[Tom4784]

You take the moral high ground all the time - you just don't see it. It's that lack of self awareness I was referring to. :shrug:

Parroting doesn't make for a compelling argument. Put more effort into it because anyone can just repeat what's been said to them.

[Tom4784]

By remoaners I mean the refusal of some to accept the vote. People of course are entitled to want to remain, just as others are entitled to want to leave - the issue is about those that keep sulking because the vote didn't go the way they wanted it to and who keep trying to sabotage a public vote.

The decision to leave has been made and we now have to get on with the finer points of the process - and no that does not mean staying in the EU and trying to dress it up as a soft Brexit. Brexit was about leaving the EU not about keeping one foot in it and keeping our options open.

And yes I am aware of the potential problems, the complexities as you put it thank you, but Nothing worth having comes easy. There are plenty of countries wanting to trade with us as And a lot of support from other countries. Whether you want to admit it or not there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the EU and its controlling policies from many other European countries and unless it changes its stance I believe it has had its day.

So the issue is with people who are unhappy with the result and imaginary people trying to 'sabotage' brexit?

The second bolded point highlights the fact that you do not understand what the referendum was. The referendum simply asked whether we should remain in the EU or not. It didn't clarify whether the people wanted a soft or hard brexit so by claiming the latter you are ironically speaking for the motivations of all voters, something you got upset about a few pages earlier when made my first post in this thread saying that most voters don't understand what they voted for....you also proved me right in that regard so thank you for that.

People voted for a brexit, not what kind of brexit they want and they've only got themselves to blame if we do have a soft brexit as they voted in a weak government when they had the opportunity to change things up.

[DemolitionRed]

By remoaners I mean the refusal of some to accept the vote. People of course are entitled to want to remain, just as others are entitled to want to leave - the issue is about those that keep sulking because the vote didn't go the way they wanted it to and who keep trying to sabotage a public vote.

The decision to leave has been made and we now have to get on with the finer points of the process - and no that does not mean staying in the EU and trying to dress it up as a soft Brexit. Brexit was about leaving the EU not about keeping one foot in it and keeping our options open.

And yes I am aware of the potential problems, the complexities as you put it thank you, but Nothing worth having comes easy. There are plenty of countries wanting to trade with us as And a lot of support from other countries. Whether you want to admit it or not there is a lot of dissatisfaction with the EU and its controlling policies from many other European countries and unless it changes its stance I believe it has had its day.

I mix with a lot of people and I don’t know anyone who doesn’t accept the vote. Come to think of it, I don’t know anyone on here who doesn't accept the vote. Sure, some aren’t happy with the outcome but we can hardly liken their unhappiness to childish sulking. This whole thing is fcuking serious stuff, its going to affect people’s livelihoods and its going to uproot entire families. You call it sulking, I call it concern and in fairness to them, they have every right to be worried.

So here are the options https://www.ft.com/content/52fb4998-573f-11e7-9fed-c19e2700005f which includes the winners and the losers…. There is no option 7. Brexit, though I think Jaxie and you disagree, is all about political matters and those matters should certainly be up for discussion.

So no, leaving the EU and slamming the door on our way out was never the only option on the table.

[jaxie]

Just accept that your realities are very different to mine. If you think walking through that exit door is all going to come together like milk and honey, just keep telling yourself that.

I've never said anything about milk and honey, or slamming doors come to that, I said you leave and close the door behind you, then you negotiate a new relationship. No big change is without some sacrifice but that doesn't mean it is going to be all gloom and doom either or that we should stay in a cocoon that is not right for us. I am completely confident that this is the right thing if I wasn't I would have taken the easy route and voted to stay in the rickety boat that is the EU.

I am mystified why you voted to leave when you seem so afraid of it now and why you find it so terrifying when the signs indicate nothing particularly terrible has happened inspite of the doom and gloom predictions. For instance reports today on BBC news say that UK unemployment is at a 42 year low. Consumer price inflation seems to be holding steady and bucking expectations. UK wage expectations grow by better than expected. The Outlook is currently positive.

[Brillopad]

Parroting doesn't make for a compelling argument. Put more effort into it because anyone can just repeat what's been said to them.

And you would know!!

[Brillopad]

So the issue is with people who are unhappy with the result and imaginary people trying to 'sabotage' brexit?

The second bolded point highlights the fact that you do not understand what the referendum was. The referendum simply asked whether we should remain in the EU or not. It didn't clarify whether the people wanted a soft or hard brexit so by claiming the latter you are ironically speaking for the motivations of all voters, something you got upset about a few pages earlier when made my first post in this thread saying that most voters don't understand what they voted for....you also proved me right in that regard so thank you for that.

People voted for a brexit, not what kind of brexit they want and they've only got themselves to blame if we do have a soft brexit as they voted in a weak government when they had the opportunity to change things up.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/aug/15/nick-clegg-book-will-reveal-how-to-stop-brexit

The link above is just one example of someone trying to sabotage Brexit along with some newspapers i.e. The guardian and independent and countless others who constantly harp on about reversing Brexit. Do you understand that now or am I imagining that too!

You also don't seem to understand that your 'hero' Corbyn supports a hard Brexit and always has. Maybe you should do a bit of reading up about the man.

It really isn't a good look to keep trying to undermine people by accusing them of failing to 'understand' this that and the other when your level of understanding is clearly not as 'up there' as you try to imply. You are not the only one trying that on and not only is it weak it smacks of desperation. Understand that!

[Tom4784]

And you would know!!

More parroting, I don't think you are capable of coming up with a reply of substance.

I'll save you the bother of replying since you'll end up responding with something among the likes 'Well neither are you!'' or something equally inane. This is predictable and boring. I know what you're going to say before you say it.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2017/aug/15/nick-clegg-book-will-reveal-how-to-stop-brexit

The link above is just one example of someone trying to sabotage Brexit along with some newspapers i.e. The guardian and independent and countless others who constantly harp on about reversing Brexit. Do you understand that now or am I imagining that too!

You also don't seem to understand that your 'hero' Corbyn supports a hard Brexit and always has. Maybe you should do a bit of reading up about the man.

It really isn't a good look to keep trying to undermine people by accusing them of failing to 'understand' this that and the other when your level of understanding is clearly not as 'up there' as you try to imply. You are not the only one trying that on and not only is it weak it smacks of desperation. Understand that!

Ah, you're taking the book equivalent of a click bait article written by an irrelevant politician whose time has passed and is desperate to regain some sense of relevancy seriously? Straws, Brillo, don't grasp at them so tightly.

That Guardian article did it's job, it's meant to rile up gullible Leavers into a rage hence the bias language throughout. Brexit is going to happen and no amount of scaremongering so you have an excuse to blame the left/immigrants/minority groups/remainers will change that.

You are getting a brexit but it won't be the one you want and it's what the Leavers deserve for voting in the Tories despite the fact that they've gone back on everything they've said since May took charge. The red flags were there all along and voters ignored them because they'd rather believe in the fantasy May was peddling than the reality.

Ah, the obligatory 'I am losing the argument so I'm gonna bring up Corbyn' defense. Again, one of my main arguments during the election was that if people truly wanted a hard brexit then they should support Labour BECAUSE Corbyn wanted brexit all along and his cabinet would be less likely to bend to the EU as soon as things get difficult. You should pay more attention, Brillo. You've gone beyond parroting and now you're trying to rewrite history and take my arguments as your own. Make your own arguments and stop piggy backing off others.

It's not a good look to constantly contradict yourself but that doesn't stop you, does it? You showed us all a fundamental lack of understanding of what the referendum was and what it meant. Like I said before, the referendum was to gauge interest in a brexit, not to decide what kind of Brexit it would be and in doing so you contradicted yourself by speaking for the intent of all leavers when you previously acted high and mighty when I suggested that most voters were ignorant and backed it up with logic that hasn't been overcome by you or your friends.

Again, that last paragraph was basically nothing but parroting what's been said to you. It's just sad at this point. I just don't think you can come up with your own thoughts and views without an article telling you what to think or repeating what other people have said to you. It's quite pointless speaking to you, you're never going to come up with a good argument because all you seem to be capable of doing is repeating what has been said.

[Brillopad]

More parroting, I don't think you are capable of coming up with a reply of substance.

I'll save you the bother of replying since you'll end up responding with something among the likes 'Well neither are you!'' or something equally inane. This is predictable and boring. I know what you're going to say before you say it.



Ah, you're taking the book equivalent of a click bait article written by an irrelevant politician whose time has passed and is desperate to regain some sense of relevancy seriously? Straws, Brillo, don't grasp at them so tightly.

That Guardian article did it's job, it's meant to rile up gullible Leavers into a rage hence the bias language throughout. Brexit is going to happen and no amount of scaremongering so you have an excuse to blame the left/immigrants/minority groups/remainers will change that.

You are getting a brexit but it won't be the one you want and it's what the Leavers deserve for voting in the Tories despite the fact that they've gone back on everything they've said since May took charge. The red flags were there all along and voters ignored them because they'd rather believe in the fantasy May was peddling than the reality.

Ah, the obligatory 'I am losing the argument so I'm gonna bring up Corbyn' defense. Again, one of my main arguments during the election was that if people truly wanted a hard brexit then they should support Labour BECAUSE Corbyn wanted brexit all along and his cabinet would be less likely to bend to the EU as soon as things get difficult. You should pay more attention, Brillo. You've gone beyond parroting and now you're trying to rewrite history and take my arguments as your own. Make your own arguments and stop piggy backing off others.

It's not a good look to constantly contradict yourself but that doesn't stop you, does it? You showed us all a fundamental lack of understanding of what the referendum was and what it meant. Like I said before, the referendum was to gauge interest in a brexit, not to decide what kind of Brexit it would be and in doing so you contradicted yourself by speaking for the intent of all leavers when you previously acted high and mighty when I suggested that most voters were ignorant and backed it up with logic that hasn't been overcome by you or your friends.

Again, that last paragraph was basically nothing but parroting what's been said to you. It's just sad at this point. I just don't think you can come up with your own thoughts and views without an article telling you what to think or repeating what other people have said to you. It's quite pointless speaking to you, you're never going to come up with a good argument because all you seem to be capable of doing is repeating what has been said.

As I said, in case you missed the point again, it was one example, one that presented itself as current news today. There are plenty of other examples out there, we all know it even if you don't.

The referendum was in or out. A soft Brexit would not be out - it would be the equivalent of doing the splits and keeping a foot in each camp.

As for the rest of it I really can't be bothered. It is just more of your insults and attempting to have the last word believing your last word is full of knowledge and wisdom. Sorry, it just isn't.

As for the parroting thing you keep throwing at me in an attempt to shut me down it just makes it obvious that that is your get out clause. Your arguments are weak and your capabilities are also questionable. So before you make such pitiful sweeping statements get some self awareness!

[Tom4784]

As I said, in case you missed the point again, it was one example, one that presented itself as current news today. There are plenty of other examples out there, we all know it even if you don't.

The referendum was in or out. A soft Brexit would not be out - it would be the equivalent of doing the splits and keeping a foot in each camp.

As for the rest of it I really can't be bothered. It is just more of your insults and attempting to have the last word believing your last word is full of knowledge and wisdom. Sorry, it just isn't.

As for the parroting thing you keep throwing at me in an attempt to shut me down it just makes it obvious that that is your get out clause. Your arguments are weak and your capabilities are also questionable. So before you make such pitiful sweeping statements get some self awareness!

A Brexit is a Brexit, we never voted on what kind of Brexit we'd want. You believe a soft Brexit wouldn't count but that's simply not the case. You are projecting your agenda as a fact onto a referendum that had no bearing on what kind of Brexit we'd get.

By voting for the Tories to have enough seats to form a coalition, the public have spoken. Everything was laid out before them about how May's government pretty much backs down on everything and they still voted for them to have the opportunity to secure power. The public had the chance to change the direction of the Brexit by voting in a stronger party but they didn't. The Brexit they get will be the one they voted for twice.

[Brillopad]

A Brexit is a Brexit, we never voted on what kind of Brexit we'd want. You believe a soft Brexit wouldn't count but that's simply not the case. You are projecting your agenda as a fact onto a referendum that had no bearing on what kind of Brexit we'd get.

By voting for the Tories to have enough seats to form a coalition, the public have spoken. Everything was laid out before them about how May's government pretty much backs down on everything and they still voted for them to have the opportunity to secure power. The public had the chance to change the direction of the Brexit by voting in a stronger party but they didn't. The Brexit they get will be the one they voted for twice.

The Tories actually did quite well in the election but Corbyn also did well by motivating so many young voters to vote for him with his promises of no uni fees and uni debts, some of which he has now back-tracked on.

It is also obvious that many of those young voters had no idea about Corbyn's views on staying in the EU and a hard Brexit. They were well mugged off.

[Tom4784]

The Tories actually did quite well in the election but Corbyn also did well by motivating so many young voters to vote for him with his promises of no uni fees and uni debts, some of which he has now back-tracked on.

It is also obvious that many of those young voters had no idea about Corbyn's views on staying in the EU and a hard Brexit. They were well mugged off.

Not sure what someone who lost an election has to do with the party in power but any excuse to bring up Corbyn and avoid responding to my post, I guess?

[Brillopad]

Not sure what someone who lost an election has to do with the party in power but any excuse to bring up Corbyn and avoid responding to my post, I guess?

Of course Corbyn is relevant to the point as it was his lies that got him enough votes to stop The Tories from winning with a clear majority. :shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

I've never said anything about milk and honey, or slamming doors come to that, I said you leave and close the door behind you, then you negotiate a new relationship. No big change is without some sacrifice but that doesn't mean it is going to be all gloom and doom either or that we should stay in a cocoon that is not right for us. I am completely confident that this is the right thing if I wasn't I would have taken the easy route and voted to stay in the rickety boat that is the EU.

I am mystified why you voted to leave when you seem so afraid of it now and why you find it so terrifying when the signs indicate nothing particularly terrible has happened inspite of the doom and gloom predictions. For instance reports today on BBC news say that UK unemployment is at a 42 year low. Consumer price inflation seems to be holding steady and bucking expectations. UK wage expectations grow by better than expected. The Outlook is currently positive.

Perhaps the more one understands, the more daunting our future looks. I'm not afraid but I do have some serious concerns.

Employment has risen and that’s fantastic but one has to wonder, what percentage of new employment is part time, zero hour contracts, constrained hours due to those on benefits. What percentage are in taxpayer-backed training schemes or self-employed or not earning a living wage and how much disguised unemployment is there? (When someone is refused benefits, they are not counted as unemployed). How many of these employed people are underemployed? http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/412/unemployment/disguised-unemployment/

Inflation is outstripping wage growth. Salaries presently stand at 2.1 percent and inflation is 2.7 percent and the Bank of England suggests it could hit 3 percent by the end of this year. To top it all, the Bank of England has given a strong indication to an interest rate rise.

[Kizzy]

Of course Corbyn is relevant to the point as it was his lies that got him enough votes to stop The Tories from winning with a clear majority. :shrug:

Lies what lies?...

[Tom4784]

Of course Corbyn is relevant to the point as it was his lies that got him enough votes to stop The Tories from winning with a clear majority. :shrug:

It's always someone else's fault isn't it? Tories didn't lose their majority because of terrible decisions they made and the awful campaign they ran, they lost because of Corbyn! The obsession is real.

It doesn't change the fact that the Tories are running the show and the Brexit they will provide will be the one you voted for whether you like it or not and you've got no one else to blame for it.

[Brillopad]

It's always someone else's fault isn't it? Tories didn't lose their majority because of terrible decisions they made and the awful campaign they ran, they lost because of Corbyn! The obsession is real.

It doesn't change the fact that the Tories are running the show and the Brexit they will provide will be the one you voted for whether you like it or not and you've got no one else to blame for it.

Hypothetically if Brexit is successful and it turns out to be the best thing we did will you want to reap the rewards of an economy you wanted to deny us all? Will you effectively eat your words?

[JTM45]

Hypothetically if Brexit is successful and it turns out to be the best thing we did will you want to reap the rewards of an economy you wanted to deny us all? Will you effectively eat your words?

When it fails and the economy crashes will you accept that you got it wrong ?

If you're consistent you'll no doubt try to lay the blame with the ''lefties'' or Corbyn.

[Brillopad]

When it fails and the economy crashes will you accept that you got it wrong ?

If you're consistent you'll no doubt try to lay the blame with the ''lefties'' or Corbyn.

It won't fail. Unlike some I am not a figure of doom and gloom on this and have enough faith in our country to make it work.

[Tom4784]

Hypothetically if Brexit is successful and it turns out to be the best thing we did will you want to reap the rewards of an economy you wanted to deny us all? Will you effectively eat your words?

There's very little point in discussing something that won't ever happen.

At best things will go to **** and then it'll eventually even out and we'll have similar but likely slightly worse economic situation as we are now but the chances of us entering some sort of Golden Age just BECAUSE of Brexit is basically never going to happen. It's a pipedream of the gullible.

Brexit supporters will try to turn the inevitable economic upturn to normalcy as a success for Brexit while ignoring the fact that the economic turmoil will likely destroy a lot of lives just so we can go back to an economy that won't be any better than what we have now.

Also, you TRULY need to read posts. I've said more times than I can count that I want Brexit to go ahead, I want people to learn from their mistakes so why are you (again) trying to rewrite history to suit your argument?

I fully expect your reply to be something among the lines of 'ugh you're the one trying to rewrite history! Learn to read posts!' Gotta do your little parroting routine.