America doesn't cower behind political correctness

[Brillopad]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/08/21/congressman-native-american-when-political-correctness-runs-amok-erasing-our-history-doesnt-change-it.html

I agree with a lot of this. For all the foot stamping going on about America and the West as a whole, their histories have indeed shaped them into the great nations they are today.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Interesting article from a Native Indian perspective

[Brillopad]

Interesting article from a Native Indian perspective

I thought so LT. He makes some very valid points and as you say from a different perspective.

The uncontrolled spread of PC across Britain reminds me of the worrying spread of the plant Japanese Knotweed doing the same.

[Kizzy]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/08/21/congressman-native-american-when-political-correctness-runs-amok-erasing-our-history-doesnt-change-it.html

I agree with a lot of this. For all the foot stamping going on about America and the West as a whole, their histories have indeed shaped them into the great nations they are today.

Are you aware of how colonialists behaved in these brave new worlds?... How ironic we are now a nation of hypocritical nimbys.

[Brillopad]

Are you aware of how colonialists behaved in these brave new worlds?... How ironic we are now a nation of hypocritical nimbys.

And you, like me, were lucky enough to have been born into one of the safest, wealthiest and most free countries in the world giving us (as stated in the article) the education, environment and freedom to express our opinions freely without threats or fear of deadly comeback.

It doesn't hurt to think about that sometimes and remember how lucky we are compared to many. Unfortunately when it is all just there it can lead to people taking things for granted and create generations with a sense of entitlement.

We cannot move the whole world to the West. If we want to help people we have to do it in their countries.

[Northern Monkey]

Destroying and defacing monuments is what the Romans did and what ISIS do.Trying to wipe out people's history is not a way forward.Reminders of the past are important.People see these monuments and research them and learn from the past.

[Withano]

This week, you literally kicked up a fuss about a man being given an umbrella before a woman, and 'the left' being mean to 'the right'. You can't applaud anti-PCness when youre that PC, surely. Its weird.

PC is at a very reasonable level imo. Doesn't need changing to either side.

[Brillopad]

This week, you literally kicked up a fuss about a man being given an umbrella before a woman, and 'the left' being mean to 'the right'. You can't applaud anti-PCness when youre that PC, surely. Its weird.

PC is at a very reasonable level imo. Doesn't need changing to either side.

As usual you twisted my words and missed the point. It was never about the umbrella or a man/woman thing. :bawling: I'm not PC - I'm anti the use of name-calling to shut down opinions. :shrug: :wavey:

[Withano]

As usual you twisted my words and missed the point. It was never about the umbrella or a man/woman thing. :bawling: I'm not PC - I'm anti the use of name-calling to shut down opinions. :shrug: :wavey:

I don't think many people are 'PC' tbf, and I don't think many people are completely 'anti-PC'. Most people have a very similar line of thinking when it comes to what words and actions are morally and socially acceptable.

Your time on tibb does suggest (to me) that you are more PC than average, just because you regularly show outrage at anything remotely unequal, which most wouldn't even pick up on... so I do find this thread coming from you a bit unusual.

[Brillopad]

I don't think many people are 'PC' tbf, and I don't think many people are completely 'anti-PC'. Most people have a very similar line of thinking when it comes to what words and actions are morally and socially acceptable.

Your time on tibb does suggest (to me) that you are more PC than average, just because you regularly show outrage at anything remotely unequal, which most wouldn't even pick up on... so I do find this thread coming from you a bit unusual.

You really don't get it do you - I react to double standards and attempted gagging by drawing attention to it. That's not PC.

Many on here have complained about the constant use of words such as racist, bigot and the latest one - nazi when challenged on certain subjects. So most don't even pick up on it! I don't what you are reading!!!!

[Withano]

You really don't get it do you - I react to double standards and attempted gagging by drawing attention to it. That's not PC.

Many on here have complained about the constant use of words such as racist, bigot and the latest one - nazi when challenged on certain subjects. So most don't even pick up on it! I don't what you are reading!!!!

You dont think your PC, I get that. I just disagree.

[Brillopad]

You dont think your PC, I get that. I just disagree.

I know I'm not, you can think what you like.

[Kazanne]

You really don't get it do you - I react to double standards and attempted gagging by drawing attention to it. That's not PC.

Many on here have complained about the constant use of words such as racist, bigot and the latest one - nazi when challenged on certain subjects. So most don't even pick up on it! I don't what you are reading!!!!

i get you brillo and it's plain for all to see what's happening here

[Brillopad]

i get you brillo and it's plain for all to see what's happening here

Hi Kaz- I know what he's up to but I don't think he realises that. Same old, same old.

[DemolitionRed]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/08/21/congressman-native-american-when-political-correctness-runs-amok-erasing-our-history-doesnt-change-it.html

I agree with a lot of this. For all the foot stamping going on about America and the West as a whole, their histories have indeed shaped them into the great nations they are today.

Does that include the Confederates? Does that include the toil of American slavery? Should we suggest that slavery helped make America the great country it is today (your thoughts not mine)

The Confederates were exclusively a white race who grew rich and prosperous on the backs of black slaves. When names are glorified in a statue, they tend to be historical heroes, not people who supported the transportation of millions to a life of slavery.

Would it be okay to put up a statue of Josef Mengele or Eduard Wirths in Germany for advancing modern medicine through experimentation on the Jews?

[DemolitionRed]

We should never close the history books. We should never stop educating our kids about the real history of our country/countries, but we are not a white supremacy; we are not the chosen ones and so, in my humble opinion, the statue's of Confederates deserve no place amongst the real heroes of America.

[GiRTh]

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017/08/21/congressman-native-american-when-political-correctness-runs-amok-erasing-our-history-doesnt-change-it.html

I agree with a lot of this. For all the foot stamping going on about America and the West as a whole, their histories have indeed shaped them into the great nations they are today.

What Russia can teach the US about what to do with Confederate statues after Charlottesville

Could Russia teach us something about how to deal with difficult aspects of US national history?

Many places in the US south – from New Orleans to Louisville – are in the process of bringing down statues that glorify the Confederacy. That process raises questions about what to do with these remnants of the past. Do we just toss them into the ash bin of history, purging them as if they never existed?

As a student of southern politics who recently travelled to Moscow, I wondered if we can look to the Russians and how they have treated their Soviet past. The situations are not perfectly analogous. Many Russian people lived through the Soviet experience. Not so for the Confederacy. That said, in both cases, there is the question of whether – and how – to purge the past.

In Moscow, and in the former Soviet Union in general, there is Soviet detritus all over the place. Hammers and sickles are chiselled into buildings, bridges and other infrastructure. Sculptures of happy, heroic soldiers, workers and farmers sit on the platforms in the Moscow metro. Seven massive “Stalin buildings” dot the city.

The Russians have done more than just tolerate these leftovers. All the propaganda that the Soviets used to produce and disseminate – and there was a lot of it – is now kitsch. Kiosks sell Soviet T-shirts next to matryoshka dolls and amber jewellery as genuine Russian souvenirs. As one Russian gentleman said to me, “It’s our past and we embrace it. We lived it. We can’t just wish it away.”

It would not be very practical to knock down the buildings Stalin helped to build or hammer out all those hammers and sickles.

Statues, however, have no practical purpose and can be taken care of rather easily. Moscow has removed many of them from public spaces. It was one of the first impulses the Russian people had after the fall of the Soviet Union.

What is instructive is what the Muscovites have done with their statues, collecting them in a sculpture garden and giving them historical context.
A grove of Lenin statues

The statues and monuments now reside together in a section of Museon arts park, a lovely green space next to Gorky Park. Museon is also known as the “fallen monument park”, though “felled monuments” would be the more appropriate name. The park contains more than just felled Soviets. There are hundreds of other pieces sprinkled through the park. But walking through the grove of Lenin statues, sitting in the shade of a monumental Soviet coat of arms, or posing next to a large bust of Leonid Brezhnev or Mikhail Kalinin is the thrill for people like me.

Each statue or set of statues is accompanied by a panel that informs the viewer about the work, its composition and the history of its display. Notably, there is little about the leader being portrayed in the text. Each description ends with, “By the decree of the Moscow City Council of people representatives of Oct 24, 1991, the monument was dismantled and placed in the Museon arts park exposition. The work is historically and culturally significant, being the memorial construction of the soviet era, on the themes of politics and ideology.” The point, of course, is that the Moscow city council is careful to state that the display is not intended to glorify the past, but to document it.

What is even more powerful is how the statues are displayed. In some ways, the arrangements are reminiscent of a cemetery. White, granite “tombstones” line a path, an appropriate metaphor for the Soviet regime.

It is the large statue of Josef Stalin, however, that is most striking. Stalin has lost his nose and is in sad shape. Behind him is a monument to the “victims to the totalitarian regime.” The monument is a wall comprising stone heads cocked at different angles. The heads are held in place by a grid of bars and barbed wire that evoke a prison camp. Hundreds of these victims stare at Stalin. Indeed, because of their placement, one cannot look at him without looking at them.

Moreover, in front of Stalin is a contemporary statue of Russian physicist and Nobel Peace Prize winner Andrei Sakharov, one of the most notable dissidents of the Soviet era. The statue of Sakharov is seated, arms behind his back, legs and feet locked together, and head upturned to the sky. Is he staring at the stars, not an unreasonable thing for a scientist or a disarmament activist to do, or can he just not bear to look at Stalin directly in front of him? And what about those arms stretched behind his back, one of them twisted and unnatural, fist in a ball? Is Sakharov being detained, or tortured? That interpretation is suggested by the statue of Felix Dzerzhinsky, the founder of the KGB, who faces Sakharov about 50 yards away. It is quite delicious to see a dog passing by and marking “Iron Felix.” Perhaps Sakharov is just having a good laugh.

Why do these scenes, these dead Soviet statues, work so well? I would assert that by locating them together, they can be put into “historical and cultural” context, as the markers suggest. Moreover, through strategic curation, these statues have been put into dialogue with each other and with the contemporary sculptures around them and been given new meaning. The statues in their old lives were meant to honour and glorify the Soviet leaders and their regime. In their new life, they have been turned into art. As pieces of art, their meaning can be changed or supplemented by how the viewer interprets them.

This suggests there would be real value to bringing felled Confederate statues together in one place. Putting them into historical context, they can give commentary on the Confederacy, the Civil War, slavery, Jim Crow, massive resistance and even present-day politics. And locating these statues with other monuments offers all kinds of opportunity to tell the whole story of the south.


What Russia can teach the US about what to do with Confederate statues after Charlottesville (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/charlottesville-protest-confederate-statue-taken-down-what-to-do-a7892856.html)

So the Russians have their dodgy statues together in one place, to preserve the history, but not have it in peoples faces. Sound like the answer to me

[Tozzie]

I get you Brillo, I have noticed some on here disagree with you time and time again and its always the same people, closed minds, I don;t know why you bother really because it's always the same bunch who jump on anything you say.

[Northern Monkey]

What Russia can teach the US about what to do with Confederate statues after Charlottesville




What Russia can teach the US about what to do with Confederate statues after Charlottesville (http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/charlottesville-protest-confederate-statue-taken-down-what-to-do-a7892856.html)

So the Russians have their dodgy statues together in one place, to preserve the history, but not have it in peoples faces. Sound like the answer to meOh yeah i forgot about that place.I remember going there to meet someone in a shipping container in Goldeneye on the N64.Long time ago.

[DemolitionRed]

I get you Brillo, I have noticed some on here disagree with you time and time again and its always the same people, closed minds, I don;t know why you bother really because it's always the same bunch who jump on anything you say.

Always the same people sticking up for Muslims, speaking out about black slavery. Shame on us closed minded, politicly correct do gooders. Shame on us for jumping on thread after hateful thread that tries to coerce us into her way of thinking. :fist:

[Tozzie]

Always the same people sticking up for Muslims, speaking out about black slavery. Shame on us closed minded, politicly correct do gooders. Shame on us for jumping on thread after hateful thread that tries to coerce us into her way of thinking. :fist:

Brillo has a right to their opinion, I don't agree with everything she says but I do think sometimes she has a point in some of the things yet I have never once seen the ones I was talking about agree with her points and that to me is close minded

[Brillopad]

Always the same people sticking up for Muslims, speaking out about black slavery. Shame on us closed minded, politicly correct do gooders. Shame on us for jumping on thread after hateful thread that tries to coerce us into her way of thinking. :fist:

Trouble is when you can't convert someone to your way of thinking you get very defensive and go on the attack. There is a lot wrong with the Muslim religion and people are entitled to point that out. If the only way some can deal with that is by resorting to abuse that is their problem, no-one else's. Having said that I believe you to be well intentioned in your views but sometimes, like many of us, emotions can get in the way. I don't believe you set out to ridicule unlike some.

It isn't hateful to criticise a religion that preaches so much hate towards others. I don't preach or support any kind of violence, I just object to a religion being allowed to showcase its vile hateful views of women on our streets, especially as such views are in direct violation of our equality laws. And like you I will continue to fight for what I percieve as an injustice.

[jaxie]

Trouble is when you can't convert someone to your way of thinking you get very defensive and go on the attack. There is a lot wrong with the Muslim religion and people are entitled to point that out. If the only way some can deal with that is by resorting to abuse that is their problem, no-one else's. Having said that I believe you to be well intentioned in your views but sometimes, like many of us, emotions can get in the way. I don't believe you set out to ridicule unlike some.

It isn't hateful to criticise a religion that preaches so much hate towards others. I don't preach or support any kind of violence, I just object to a religion being allowed to showcase its vile hateful views of women on our streets, especially as such views are in direct violation of our equality laws. And like you I will continue to fight for what I percieve as an injustice.

I think there is a lot of truth in these two paragraphs and it is encouraging that more people are starting to see the attacking and insulting that goes on here. There are some elements who seem to categorise people and then target everything they say.

I don't always agree with you Brillo but I can see that almost everything you say is jumped on and often ridiculed and you have as much right to your views as anyone else.

[DemolitionRed]

Trouble is when you can't convert someone to your way of thinking you get very defensive and go on the attack. There is a lot wrong with the Muslim religion and people are entitled to point that out. If the only way some can deal with that is by resorting to abuse that is their problem, no-one else's. Having said that I believe you to be well intentioned in your views but sometimes, like many of us, emotions can get in the way. I don't believe you set out to ridicule unlike some.

It isn't hateful to criticise a religion that preaches so much hate towards others. I don't preach or support any kind of violence, I just object to a religion being allowed to showcase its vile hateful views of women on our streets, especially as such views are in direct violation of our equality laws. And like you I will continue to fight for what I percieve as an injustice.

But you contradict yourself Brillo. You recently said that you are fond of the peace loving Jew and then went on to show you had little knowledge about the apartheid going on in Israel. Orthodox Jewish men equally show their hatred towards women on our streets but they don't get a mention. I see injustice all around me. Some of it from Muslims, some of it from Jews and some of it from people who hold no religion but I can't fight those injustices anymore than you can and even if I could, I wouldn't attempt to do that by inciting hatred.

[DemolitionRed]

I think there is a lot of truth in these two paragraphs and it is encouraging that more people are starting to see the attacking and insulting that goes on here. There are some elements who seem to categorise people and then target everything they say.

I don't always agree with you Brillo but I can see that almost everything you say is jumped on and often ridiculed and you have as much right to your views as anyone else.

Which is exactly what you do.

Why would anyone join a serious debate to agree with something they adamantly disagree with? Like Brillo so rightly said, I find these topics trigger me emotionally, so why would I sit back and say nothing? Brillo is the biggest thread starter on this channel and she clearly has very strong feelings about particular sub groups. If I and all the people who strongly disagree with her opinion ignored her threads, then her debates wouldn't even take off.

Serious debate is not about us all holding hands and singing cumbia.

[jaxie]

Which is exactly what you do.

Why would anyone join a serious debate to agree with something they adamantly disagree with? Like Brillo so rightly said, I find these topics trigger me emotionally, so why would I sit back and say nothing? Brillo is the biggest thread starter on this channel and she clearly has very strong feelings about particular sub groups. If I and all the people who strongly disagree with her opinion ignored her threads, then her debates wouldn't even take off.

Serious debate is not about us all holding hands and singing cumbia.

There is a huge difference between disagreeing with someone's point of view and targeting to the point that you aren't even reading what they are saying. I can happily say I've never done that.

[jet]

I think there is a lot of truth in these two paragraphs and it is encouraging that more people are starting to see the attacking and insulting that goes on here. There are some elements who seem to categorise people and then target everything they say.

I don't always agree with you Brillo but I can see that almost everything you say is jumped on and often ridiculed and you have as much right to your views as anyone else.

Well said. :clap2:

[Kizzy]

I get you Brillo, I have noticed some on here disagree with you time and time again and its always the same people, closed minds, I don;t know why you bother really because it's always the same bunch who jump on anything you say.

What are peop,e meant to do in a debate, I don't agree personally with this article I think it whitewashes ( no pun intended) our own invasions into foriegn lands, to absolve that as suggesting it was for 'the greater good' does not wash with me.

Admit our past crimes against other nations and move on, but please don't warble on that we did the savages a favour murdering , enslaving and stripping land and resources!

If you want a forum to yourself to blow smoke up each others arses go make one.

[Brillopad]

What are peop,e meant to do in a debate, I don't agree personally with this article I think it whitewashes ( no pun intended) our own invasions into foriegn lands, to absolve that as suggesting it was for 'the greater good' does not wash with me.

Admit our past crimes against other nations and move on, but please don't warble on that we did the savages a favour murdering , enslaving and stripping land and resources!

If you want a forum to yourself to blow smoke up each others arses go make one.

As usual you put your own interpretation on to what was a good article from someone who has experienced both sides. Who better to give an opinion on this. But once again you dismiss it out of hand - what makes you better informed than a man who has lived it rather than book-read it.

Just remember the freedoms of Western life gave you the education and environment to voice those opinions, something you clearly take for granted.

[jaxie]

What are peop,e meant to do in a debate, I don't agree personally with this article I think it whitewashes ( no pun intended) our own invasions into foriegn lands, to absolve that as suggesting it was for 'the greater good' does not wash with me.

Admit our past crimes against other nations and move on, but please don't warble on that we did the savages a favour murdering , enslaving and stripping land and resources!

If you want a forum to yourself to blow smoke up each others arses go make one.

Incredibly rude and missing the point of what we've been saying.
Mystified why some people think you have to target or mock people you disagree with as part of a debate. A debate is a discussion of different views often decided by a vote at the end not a free for all to be rude and win at all costs.

[JTM45]

FOX 'News'. The epitome of 'fake news' and ironically Trump's favourite! The voice of the ignorant in America.:laugh:

Even FOX is starting to grow weary of Trump's inability to do his job now though. I think they're finally starting to come to terms with the fact that his days in the White House are numbered and nothing can save him.

[Kizzy]

As usual you put your own interpretation on to what was a good article from someone who has experienced both sides. Who better to give an opinion on this. But once again you dismiss it out of hand - what makes you better informed than a man who has lived it rather than book-read it.

Just remember the freedoms of Western life gave you the education and environment to voice those opinions, something you clearly take for granted.

God forbid I have a differing opinion eh?

I haven't suggested he can't have a say, or I am better placed to comment have I?

I am aware of my privileged, I am also aware of the dubious activities historically undertaken in the name of the crown that today would be considered at best an invasion and at worst genocide.

I take nothing for granted thank you.

[Niamh.]

God forbid I have a differing opinion eh?

I haven't suggested he can't have a say, or I am better placed to comment have I?

I am aware of my privileged, I am also aware of the dubious activities historically undertaken in the name of the crown that today would be considered at best an invasion and at worst genocide.

I take nothing for granted thank you.

Around a million Irish people died during the potato famine while the British shipped out all our other food under armed guard

[Kizzy]

Incredibly rude and missing the point of what we've been saying.
Mystified why some people think you have to target or mock people you disagree with as part of a debate. A debate is a discussion of different views often decided by a vote at the end not a free for all to be rude and win at all costs.

It's apt.... If you want a forum full of nodding dogs go find one, I shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable for not aligning with the majority view on any given thread as has happened here!

The suggestion I have a 'closed mind' due to my input in the debate is incredibly rude and mocking, did you miss that or conveniently gloss over it?

Yes a debate is a discussion of different views why then are mine treated as unwarranted if they counter with the OP?

[Brillopad]

It's apt.... If you want a forum full of nodding dogs go find one, I shouldn't be made to feel uncomfortable for not aligning with the majority view on any given thread as has happened here!

The suggestion I have a 'closed mind' due to my input in the debate is incredibly rude and mocking, did you miss that or conveniently gloss over it?

Yes a debate is a discussion of different views why then are mine treated as unwarranted if they counter with the OP?

No time for that as you seem quite happy to make others feel uncomfortable when not in the majority in a thread.

[Kizzy]

No time for that as you seem quite happy to make others feel uncomfortable when not in the majority in a thread.

If you have an issue with my posts report them, don't tag team rude comments in relation to my views on the topic under discussion.

[Brillopad]

If you have an issue with my posts report them, don't tag team rude comments in relation to my views on the topic under discussion.

I wasn't tag teaming anyone. I was, like you, responding to a post. It was a valid point but if you choose to use distraction tactics so be it.

[Kizzy]

Stick to the topic fgs, if you or anyone else don't like my views or object to them not corresponding with yours let it be known I don't care.
It was not a valid point it was a rude and mocking comment stating I had a 'closed mind'

The only thing I'm closing is this conversation.

[Kizzy]

Around a million Irish people died during the potato famine while the British shipped out all our other food under armed guard

Excellent example, thank you Niamh.

[Brillopad]

Stick to the topic fgs, if you or anyone else don't like my views or object to them not corresponding with yours let it be known I don't care.
It was not a valid point it was a rude and mocking comment stating I had a 'closed mind'

The only thing I'm closing is this conversation.

FTR Kizzy I was talking about my response to yours on being made to feel uncomfortable being valid. That's all.

[Tom4784]

America elected Donald Trump.

Says it all really.

[jaxie]

Around a million Irish people died during the potato famine while the British shipped out all our other food under armed guard

A horrible event from different times. Unfortunately in history every country has events that they can feel shame over.

[Kizzy]

A horrible event from different times. Unfortunately in history every country has events that they can feel shame over.

I thought the onus of the thread was feeling proud of where we are, how is that possible knowing where we were... just ignore our history?

[JTM45]

America elected Donald Trump.

Says it all really.

Now THAT really is something to be ashamed of.

I suppose, if nothing else, his election will serve as a warning to future generations of Americans of what kind of person really should never, ever, be elected again.
It's not like there wasn't already a mountain of evidence that made it extremely clear what a morally repugnant person he is. Why on Earth did anyone believe that he had suddenly become someone who cared about anyone but himself or had suddenly learned how to tell the truth and not cheat, con and steal for a living ? :shrug:

At least far more people are aware of his disgusting behaviour now he's had a platform upon which to display it. I just hope the damage he's done to America is repairable and that it doesn't take too long to do so.

[DemolitionRed]

There is a huge difference between disagreeing with someone's point of view and targeting to the point that you aren't even reading what they are saying. I can happily say I've never done that.

Oh but you have or at least you often come across that way.

[jaxie]

Oh but you have or at least you often come across that way.

Then perhaps you aren't reading what I'm saying.

[Brillopad]

Oh but you have or at least you often come across that way.

I would describe your view as blinkered and not wanting to acknowledge the blatant actions of some because they share your views on some issues.