A lesson in freedom of speech that all Europeans and Canadians need to see

[Liberty4eva]

I don't believe America is the best country to live in or at least I think such labels are silly. Some things we do better than other countries and some we don't. One thing I believe we do better than just about any other country is we have a culture that genuinely believes in freedom of speech, even if they find that speech distasteful. When I look across to Europe and I see 80 year old women being jailed for years for daring to question the official version of the Holocaust, I love that we have a written constitution that is almost impossible to change with the first amendment. So I found this video and I think the message is profound. A man uses his freedom of speech to put a Nazi flag up on his property. All the neighbors found it distasteful but not one dared question his right to do that. Instead, one of them used his freedom of speech to bring attention to this. Although I would not fly a Nazi flag in my backyard, this video is one of the rare times these days when I am proud of my country.

h1Va-y2ATKI

[Brillopad]

I don't believe America is the best country to live in or at least I think such labels are silly. Some things we do better than other countries and some we don't. One thing I believe we do better than just about any other country is we have a culture that genuinely believes in freedom of speech, even if they find that speech distasteful. When I look across to Europe and I see 80 year old women being jailed for years for daring to question the official version of the Holocaust, I love that we have a written constitution that is almost impossible to change with the first amendment. So I found this video and I think the message is profound. A man uses his freedom of speech to put a Nazi flag up on his property. All the neighbors found it distasteful but not one dared question his right to do that. Instead, one of them used his freedom of speech to bring attention to this. Although I would not fly a Nazi flag in my backyard, this video is one of the rare times these days when I am proud of my country.

h1Va-y2ATKI

Personally I don't see much difference between a nazi flag and a Burkha, both are shoving discrimination down our throats. I suppose the difference for me would be that the flag is on private property whereas the wearing of a burkha is allowed on public streets and in public places.

[Niamh.]

So flying an ISIS flag would equally be ok, do you think?

[Liberty4eva]

So flying an ISIS flag would equally be ok, do you think?

If they are a legal citizen of the United States then they should be allowed to fly it on their own property. If they start talking and indoctrinating people about how non-Muslims need to be killed, then that's a grey area. If they are a "refugee" not a citizen and they are proudly waving the Isis flag I think it is in our country's interest and our legal right to deport them on the spot back to wherever they came from.

[Greg!]

So we have a nazi sympathiser and, by the sounds of it, a holocaust-denier sympathiser on the forum. Wtaf

[Greg!]

Freedom of speech can go too far. Having a nazi (or ISIS) flag flying should always be illegal

[Brillopad]

So we have a nazi sympathiser and, by the sounds of it, a holocaust-denier sympathiser on the forum. Wtaf

We also seem to have a dictator.

[Denver]

Shame you Americans dont feel Blacks are part of your culture

[Greg!]

We also seem to have a dictator.

Yes that Josy is a right COW!!

(I'm joking Josy xxx)

[Niamh.]

If they are a legal citizen of the United States then they should be allowed to fly it on their own property. If they start talking and indoctrinating people about how non-Muslims need to be killed, then that's a grey area. If they are a "refugee" not a citizen and they are proudly waving the Isis flag I think it is in our country's interest and our legal right to deport them on the spot back to wherever they came from.

mmhmm I don't believe you with all your if's and but's

[Brillopad]

So flying an ISIS flag would equally be ok, do you think?

I have seen an ISIS flag on a house in Britain. It seemed to be allowed. At least I guess they are indentifying themselves - not so much of the hidden enemy within.

There were also such flags being waved at a recent Hezbolah demostration in London, which was supposedly illegal, but nothing was done about it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would think that this perhaps has a tiny wee bit to do with a neighbour dispute?

:think:

[Greg!]

I have seen an ISIS flag on a house in Britain. It seemed to be allowed. At least I guess they are indentifying themselves - not so much of the hidden enemy within.

It is NOT allowed and you should have reported it as soon as you saw it.

[Northern Monkey]

Surely flying the flag of the enemy would be a crime against the country?Be it the Nazis or ISIS or whoever.

[Niamh.]

I have seen an ISIS flag on a house in Britain. It seemed to be allowed. At least I guess they are indentifying themselves - not so much of the hidden enemy within.

An actual ISIS flag? They should be made take it down and they should be arresting them imo

[Niamh.]

Surely flying the flag of the enemy would be a crime against the country?Be it the Nazis or ISIS or whoever.

You would think so

[Withano]

I don't think your get-out-clause freedom of speech loophole makes America great at all lol. At some point, logic and common sense trumps (for lack of a better word) that.

[Liberty4eva]

Surely flying the flag of the enemy would be a crime against the country?Be it the Nazis or ISIS or whoever.

It definitely is an insult but I wouldn't call it a crime. Burning the American flag isn't a crime so flying another an enemy's flag shouldn't be a crime, I think.

[user104658]

It is NOT allowed and you should have reported it as soon as you saw it.

An actual ISIS flag? They should be made take it down and they should be arresting them imo

I'd bet good money that what Brillo saw was simply the national flag with arabic of a middle-eastern country (Iraq, Saudi, Yemen etc. have writing on their flags), and not an actual Jihadist black flag.

Not least because an actual ISIS member flying an ISIS flag on their house would be REALLY stupid :think:.

[Niamh.]

I'd bet good money that what Brillo saw was simply the national flag with arabic of a middle-eastern country (Iraq, Saudi, Yemen etc. have writing on their flags), and not an actual Jihadist black flag.

Not least because an actual ISIS member flying an ISIS flag on their house would be REALLY stupid :think:.

Yeah :laugh:

[Brillopad]

I'd bet good money that what Brillo saw was simply the national flag with arabic of a middle-eastern country (Iraq, Saudi, Yemen etc. have writing on their flags), and not an actual Jihadist black flag.

Not least because an actual ISIS member flying an ISIS flag on their house would be REALLY stupid :think:.

It wasn't. It was an all black flag and had metal grates over the windows and doors. It looked really sinister.

[Liberty4eva]

So we have a nazi sympathiser and, by the sounds of it, a holocaust-denier sympathiser on the forum. Wtaf

Labels are silly. Let's just say I no longer buy into the belief that the Allies in WW2 were all that better than the Nazis. The world ain't black and white. Never was.

[Northern Monkey]

Labels are silly. Let's just say I no longer buy into the belief that the Allies in WW2 were all that better than the Nazis. The world ain't black and white. Never was.

The allies didn't try and delete an entire race from the world.I'd say we were on the right side of morality in that one

[user104658]

On the thread topic, though, everyone has rights but there has to be a line and it has to be a sensible line. Do you think a non-white person living a few doors down from someone flying this flag feels safe?

People do have the right to express themselves and their beliefs but people also have the right to feel safe on their own street and in their own home. In cases like this, surely the latter trumps the former? Even if you believe that white supremacists "have the right to express themselves", attending rallies and soap-boxing and whatever - surely this shouldn't extend to intimidating people on suburban streets when they are just trying to get on with their day-to-day life?


I'll go back to my neighbours as an example, who like to throw parties every weekend and blast music until 4am. Do these scumbags have the right to party in their own home? To play the music they want to, when they want to, on their own property? Arguably, sure they do, I get that it's how they de-stress and have fun, and everyone is entitled to have fun and remove stress. HOWEVER - my autistic 5 year old daughter also has the right to be able to sleep peacefully in her own bed, so that she doesn't become exhausted and distressed. Me and the rest of my family have the right to get a good night's sleep before getting up for work at 7am on a Sunday morning.

And this is where there has to be a line; where something being legal doesn't mean it is acceptable or that it should be tolerated.

[Greg!]

Labels are silly. Let's just say I no longer buy into the belief that the Allies in WW2 were all that better than the Nazis. The world ain't black and white. Never was.

Ummm

[user104658]

Labels are silly. Let's just say I no longer buy into the belief that the Allies in WW2 were all that better than the Nazis. The world ain't black and white. Never was.

Eeeerrrrrrrrr. Whilst war is war and the "blood and bravery" images of WW2 are indeed "made pretty for public consumption", and many of the Allied forces no doubt committed terrible war crimes throughout a long and brutal war, to suggest that they weren't much better than the Nazis is a major, major stretch. Nazi ideology is abhorrent in ways that go far beyond the actual waging of war.

Were German soldiers much worse than Allied soldiers? Probably not; all were following orders and doing as they were expected to do, and many low-level German troops I'm sure absolutely hated what they were being asked to do, just as many Allied soldiers would have, and likewise many on both sides probably loved all of it.

But actual top-level Nazi brass pulling the strings? Actual genetic supremacists? About as close to "evil" as it comes in the real world.

[Livia]

I'd bet good money that what Brillo saw was simply the national flag with arabic of a middle-eastern country (Iraq, Saudi, Yemen etc. have writing on their flags), and not an actual Jihadist black flag.

Not least because an actual ISIS member flying an ISIS flag on their house would be REALLY stupid :think:.

I've seen an actual IS flag several times, although not on a house. I've seen one fixed to the front of a a table in East Ham High Street (junction of Pilgrims Way, to be exact) alongside a man - and I use that term in its loosest possible sense - handing out leaflets and yelling into a bullhorn. I've also seen it being carried during demonstrations. It's as much of a disgrace as flying a Nazi flag on my opinion.

As for the USA, I think people in the States have so many freedoms compared to other places in the world that they imagine Freedom of Speech is something that allows them to do and say things just to antagonise... and we all know that's not the purpose of it.

[user104658]

I've seen an actual IS flag several times, although not on a house. I've seen one fixed to the front of a a table in East Ham High Street (junction of Pilgrims Way, to be exact) alongside a man - and I use that term in its loosest possible sense - handing out leaflets and yelling into a bullhorn. I've also seen it being carried during demonstrations. It's as much of a disgrace as flying a Nazi flag on my opinion.

ISIS and Nazi ideology is pretty much identical anyway, if you think about it. Both are hard right, both are supremacist with the only difference being their definition of what it means to be "chosen" (Nazis it's genetics, ISIS it's religion). Other than that their driving forces and methods they use are chillingly similar. I suppose a major difference is that since Nazis believe in genetic supremacy, they will simply want to wipe out those who aren't like they are... where as ISIS is able and willing to convert those who can be converted and kill those who won't. Which I suppose makes them dangerous in different ways.

[Dominic]

I can agree that some countries are way too extra and make **** like misgendering illegal (which I'm not saying isn't rude/offensive, but it should be apologized for and moved on and not against the law). Buuuuut I don't think free speech should go that far to justify anti-semitism and sympathize with nazis.

[MTVN]

It's pretty concerning when the two examples of free speech that you mention taking pride in are holocaust denial and flying the swastika

[Kizzy]

Personally I can see this country hurtling towards nazi ideology, distancing ourselves from the rest of Europe, media manipulation, fear of experts and intellectuals, restriction of immigration, different rules for foreigners, one 'strong and stable' leader, demonisation of the poor and disabled, distrust and panic spread relating to Muslims.

The signs are there.

[Liberty4eva]

It's pretty concerning when the two examples of free speech that you mention taking pride in are holocaust denial and flying the swastika

I have never voiced support for Nazism in any of my posts. I also take pride that we can burn the American flag if we want to.

[user104658]

So holocaust denial, flying the swastika but you're also ok with burning the US flag? Well that makes it OK I guess... no pattern emerging at all here...

[Tom4784]

Freedom of Speech isn't unconditional, even in the US. Whether it's legal or other consequences, ALL opinions come with consequences.

It is NOT allowed and you should have reported it as soon as you saw it.

Can't report what didn't happen.

[Liberty4eva]

So holocaust denial, flying the swastika but you're also ok with burning the US flag? Well that makes it OK I guess... no pattern emerging at all here...

The pattern is all of those things I have mentioned are unpopular opinions and expressions. The first amendment does not protect popular forms of speech because popular speech does not need protection. It is unpopular speech that needs protection.

[Withano]

It was an all black flag

... so not an ISIS flag

[Brillopad]

Freedom of Speech isn't unconditional, even in the US. Whether it's legal or other consequences, ALL opinions come with consequences.



Can't report what didn't happen.

Really. Didn't know you were there. Or is it a habit of yours to call people liars based on no evidence whatsoever.

[Brillopad]

... so not an ISIS flag

Alright, what was it then? An all black flag with something written on it flying high on the front of the house.

[Withano]

Alright, what was it then? An all black flag with something written on it flying high on the front of the house.

Sounds like a fabricated story to further a point. Idk tho.

[MB.]

"I don't believe in labels" is a reasoning used for stuff like sexuality, not "I like the Nazis but I don't want to be called a Nazi", just fyi

[Brillopad]

Sounds like a fabricated story to further a point. Idk tho.

Well it wasn't. That may be something you would do but I wouldn't.

The flag was on the front of a semi on a busy main road on the outskirts of London, somewhere between Chelmsford and London. As previously mentioned the house had metal grates/bars over the windows and front door as well. Thousands must have seen it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Personally I can see this country hurtling towards nazi ideology, distancing ourselves from the rest of Europe, media manipulation, fear of experts and intellectuals, restriction of immigration, different rules for foreigners, one 'strong and stable' leader, demonisation of the poor and disabled, distrust and panic spread relating to Muslims.

The signs are there.

I think you may be over reacting a smidgeon

[Brillopad]

I think you may be over reacting a smidgeon

Was thinking exactly the same. Just scaremongering in my opinion.

[Kizzy]

I didn't ask anyone to agree, that is my view what you make of it is of no consequence.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I didn't ask anyone to agree, that is my view what you make of it is of no consequence.

"distrust and panic spread relating to Muslims."


Would you agree that the current spate of Muslim terror may have a hand in this?

[Kizzy]

"distrust and panic spread relating to Muslims."


Would you agree that the current spate of Muslim terror may have a hand in this?

So it's Muslim terror, not isis extremist terror? Thanks you're proving my point.

[Tom4784]

Was thinking exactly the same. Just scaremongering in my opinion.

Yeah, we should ignore things like that and focus on what's REALLY scary, like muslims!

[Liberty4eva]

Freedom of speech can go too far. Having a nazi (or ISIS) flag flying should always be illegal

When you start making some forms of expression illegal, it can lead your country down a dark path. Watch this video and tell me if you think this man deserved to be arrested.

58l9a6y6Rkc

I am glad that America has not gone down this pathway yet.

[DemolitionRed]

So this hilarious guy teaches his dog to react when he says "gas the Jews" and you want our reaction to him being arrested? I wonder how many Jews gave the thumbs up to that video.

[DemolitionRed]

Was thinking exactly the same. Just scaremongering in my opinion.

You mean like you do about Muslims?

[DemolitionRed]

Labels are silly. Let's just say I no longer buy into the belief that the Allies in WW2 were all that better than the Nazis. The world ain't black and white. Never was.

At what? chess?

[Liberty4eva]

Personally I don't see much difference between a nazi flag and a Burkha, both are shoving discrimination down our throats. I suppose the difference for me would be that the flag is on private property whereas the wearing of a burkha is allowed on public streets and in public places.

I do differ from the "alt-righters" on this website at least on this issue. I feel we should be able to wear what we would like in public as long as it does not directly harm other people. So walking down the street with a Burkha should be legal (as long as the person is voluntarily wearing it of course) but driving with a Burkha or getting your driver's license photo with it is another story. In that situation what they are doing is putting other people in jeopardy.

If the British, French, or whomever don't like it when people wear the Burkha you might want to think about stopping the immigration of people who will be inclined to wear the Burkha. It's not rocket science.

[JTM45]

If the British, French, or whomever don't like it when people wear the Burkha you might want to think about stopping the immigration of people who will be inclined to wear the Burkha. It's not rocket science.

Please don't speak for us, especially innacurately.

In one breath you speak about people's rights to wear what they want to and in the next you advocate an immigration ban for those people for exercising those rights.
The immigration ban crap wasn't accepted in your country and gladly isn't even on the table in ours.

[Brillopad]

Please don't speak for us, especially innacurately.

In one breath you speak about people's rights to wear what they want to and in the next you advocate an immigration ban for those people for exercising those rights.
The immigration ban crap wasn't accepted in your country and gladly isn't even on the table in ours.

So can anyone wear an item of clothing i.e. tee shirt or dress with a large swastika, ISIS or anti-Islam flag on the front in public because of people's rights to wear what they want?

The wearing of the burkha is just the same and represents blatant discrimination and is every bit as hateful and offensive. If we allow one we have to allow all otherwise we are practising discrimination and publicly stating that some types of discrimination are more distasteful and some more acceptable than others. Would that be your opinion then? Do you think the discrimination of women is less distasteful and more acceptable than the discrimination of race or religion?

As for immigration - that is a subject very much still in progress because, in case you haven't noticed or chosen to ignore, Europe as a whole is increasingly protesting against mass immigration and open borders.

[JTM45]

So can anyone wear an item of clothing i.e. tee shirt or dress with a large swastika, ISIS or anti-Islam flag on the front in public because of people's rights to wear what they want?

The wearing of the burkha is just the same and represents blatant discrimination and is every bit as hateful and offensive. If we allow one we have to allow all otherwise we are practising discrimination and publicly stating that some types of discrimination are more distasteful and some more acceptable than others. Would that be your opinion then? Do you think the discrimination of women is less distasteful and more acceptable than the discrimination of race or religion?

As for immigration - that is a subject very much still in progress because, in case you haven't noticed or chosen to ignore, Europe as a whole is increasingly protesting against mass immigration and open borders.

So where did i say any of that ?
It's the person i was replying to that advocated the things you're trying to pull me up on so why aren't you questioning them about it instead of me ? Oh yeah, it doesn't fit in with your agenda does it.:bored:

[DemolitionRed]

So can anyone wear an item of clothing i.e. tee shirt or dress with a large swastika, ISIS or anti-Islam flag on the front in public because of people's rights to wear what they want?

The wearing of the burkha is just the same and represents blatant discrimination and is every bit as hateful and offensive. If we allow one we have to allow all otherwise we are practising discrimination and publicly stating that some types of discrimination are more distasteful and some more acceptable than others. Would that be your opinion then? Do you think the discrimination of women is less distasteful and more acceptable than the discrimination of race or religion?

As for immigration - that is a subject very much still in progress because, in case you haven't noticed or chosen to ignore, Europe as a whole is increasingly protesting against mass immigration and open borders.

The burqa is more cultural than religious. In some countries, its demanded and that is discriminatory. In the West, some women continue to wear it because a) that's what they are used to and feel comfortable in it. b) Because they wrongly believe it represents the purity of a religion. c) Because the men or family members demand it and d) because they want their right to privacy.

If we ban the burqa, we aid the women who aren't given a choice but what about the women who choose to wear it? Would we be discriminating her rights?

I walk past women wearing burqas on a regular basis. I hardly notice them and I certainly don't find them offensive or threatening. I don't look at those women pitifully and ponder about why they are wearing it, just as I don't ponder about the Hasidic Jewish women wearing dowdy clothing and ill fitting wigs or the English woman revealing their heavy cleavages or ass cheeks from micro outfits. All of those women could be being bullied by the men in their lives to wear the outfits they wear but its not for me to pick and choose which women are being repressed, abused, bullied, coerced or pimped based on what they are wearing.

[JTM45]

when you are the only person on your street left who speaks English, you are going to move. I don't expect you to agree with that and you may call me an idiot for all I care but I do know your type. Those who preach diversity are almost always the first to flee when they experience it and see what it really entails. In California so many people are fleeing to other (whiter) states but unfortunately sometimes they are taking their political opinions with them.

I've lived in Africa and Saudi Arabia so that destroys your ill-founded assumptions (again!).
How on Earth can you claim to ''know my type'' when you don't know me or anything about me. You're judging me by your own discriminatory values which i'm proud to not share.
It just makes you look foolish when you repeatedly make incorrect assumptions

[Brillopad]

The burqa is more cultural than religious. In some countries, its demanded and that is discriminatory. In the West, some women continue to wear it because a) that's what they are used to and feel comfortable in it. b) Because they wrongly believe it represents the purity of a religion. c) Because the men or family members demand it and d) because they want their right to privacy.

If we ban the burqa, we aid the women who aren't given a choice but what about the women who choose to wear it? Would we be discriminating her rights?

I walk past women wearing burqas on a regular basis. I hardly notice them and I certainly don't find them offensive or threatening. I don't look at those women pitifully and ponder about why they are wearing it, just as I don't ponder about the Hasidic Jewish women wearing dowdy clothing and ill fitting wigs or the English woman revealing their heavy cleavages or ass cheeks from micro outfits. All of those women could be being bullied by the men in their lives to wear the outfits they wear but its not for me to pick and choose which women are being repressed, abused, bullied, coerced or pimped based on what they are wearing.

I would rather aid those women that have no choice in wearing it than pander to those that choose to wear it and disrespect Western values of female equality.

[JTM45]

I would rather aid those women that have no choice in wearing it than pander to those that choose to wear it and disrespect Western values of female equality.

Yeah, i'm sure you spend a lot of your time helping Muslim women..............when you're not trawling the internet for trashy anti-muslim 'articles' to start threads about here. :laugh:

[Brillopad]

Yeah, i'm sure you spend a lot of your time helping Muslim women..............when you're not trawling the internet for trashy anti-muslim 'articles' to start threads about here. :laugh:

I just live my life. I respect the values of others if they respect the values of others. Not complicated or unreasonable.

Choosing to wear a burkha in the West is disrespectful to Western culture and female equality and therefore the wearer gets no respect from me and a large part of the West judging by those counties that have already banned the wearing of it and those that have called for it to be banned.

So you can stick your cheap jibes. :nono:

[JTM45]

Choosing to wear a burkha in the West is disrespectful to Western culture and female equality

You really are so ignorant and un-knowledgable! Just because someone lives by their traditions, especially when it regards something that's extremely important to their religious belief system, it doesn't mean they're being ''disrespectful to Western culture and female equality''.:laugh:
British people don't , on the whole, live by the beliefs and traditions of Countries they choose to visit.

When it suits your self-centred agenda you're all for freedom of speech and personal rights but when it's a question of someone else's personal rights then you're wanting them taken away at your pleasure just because it offends your biggoted, discriminatory & xenophobic 'views' which gladly are only shared by a small minority of archaic minded hate-mongers.:idc:

[jaxie]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/saira-khan-bikini-photo-loose-women-muslim-death-threat-instagram-islam-a7907911.html

I'm with Saira Kahn, a modern British Muslim woman, when she says "Kiss my ass you backwards, prehistoric dinosaur."

Very apt response to those promoting the discrimination of women through religious dress and dictates, and those supporting and defending it.

Acceptable discrimination and mysogyny in the name of religion and fiercely defended, beggers belief.

[Brillopad]

You really are so ignorant and un-knowledgable! Just because someone lives by their traditions, especially when it regards something that's extremely important to their religious belief system, it doesn't mean they're being ''disrespectful to Western culture and female equality''.:laugh:
British people don't , on the whole, live by the beliefs and traditions of Countries they choose to visit.

When it suits your self-centred agenda you're all for freedom of speech and personal rights but when it's a question of someone else's personal rights then you're wanting them taken away at your pleasure just because it offends your biggoted, discriminatory & xenophobic 'views' which gladly are only shared by a small minority of archaic minded hate-mongers.:idc:

News for you - Ignorance isn't disagreeing with you :joker:. As we are not talking about visiting, but generally about people choosing to live here - then to demonstrate some consideration and adherence for local belief systems and equality laws is expected by most. You are ignorant if you don't see that and clearly have your own agenda! Pot calling kettle yet again.

I guarantee you would not be saying the same if people came here en masse and walking our streets wearing clothing sporting a swastica. I know you would see that differently because I believe you have double standards and put some groups before others. It's not just about what you find offensive, and it seems to me that the equality of women is not up there with some other equalities in your book. British women have rights too btw - and it isn't to put up and shut up at the behest of the PC mob.

I see you as bigoted, discrimanatory and sexist in your beliefs that if British women are offended by certain groups accepted into our country being disrespectful to female equality laws, you have a right to verbally abuse them. You just demonstrate that female equality is of little interest to you and you are every bit as ignorant as you accuse others of being in your desperate attempt to shut them up!

[Brillopad]

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/saira-khan-bikini-photo-loose-women-muslim-death-threat-instagram-islam-a7907911.html

I'm with Saira Kahn, a modern British Muslim woman, when she says "Kiss my ass you backwards, prehistoric dinosaur."

Very apt response to those promoting the discrimination of women through religious dress and dictates, and those supporting and defending it.

Acceptable discrimination and mysogyny in the name of religion and fiercely defended, beggers belief.

Truly shocking Jaxie. Well done her for getting a screen shot of that foul-mouthed tirade and not allowing them to intimidate her. This is apparently what we as British women are expected to accept and put up with these days! Not a chance!

[JTM45]

News for you - Ignorance isn't disagreeing with you :joker:. As we are not talking about visiting, but generally about people choosing to live here - then to demonstrate some consideration and adherence for local belief systems and equality laws is expected by most. You are ignorant if you don't see that and clearly have your own agenda! Pot calling kettle yet again.

I guarantee you would not be saying the same if people came here en masse and walking our streets wearing clothing sporting a swastica. I know you would see that differently because I believe you have double standards and put some groups before others. It's not just about what you find offensive, and it seems to me that the equality of women is not up there with some other equalities in your book. British women have rights too btw - and it isn't to put up and shut up at the behest of the PC mob.

I see you as bigoted, discrimanatory and sexist in your beliefs that if British women are offended by certain groups accepted into our country being disrespectful to female equality laws, you have a right to verbally abuse them. You just demonstrate that female equality is of little interest to you and you are every bit as ignorant as you accuse others of being in your desperate attempt to shut them up!

Please stop making up REALLY OFFENSIVE crap about me! I didn't say or even point to believing what you're claiming i did. Where do i say anything about me having a right ''to verbally abuse'' anyone ? Either delete this post now or i will be making a serious complaint about this. I NEVER report people usually but then people don't usually make up blatant lies about me.

You clearly don't have a great understanding of many things and you're more than entitled to think whatever you want about me but to use your ignorance to post wildly incorrect slander about me is disgusting and i suggest you delete these accusations and don't make any in the future.:nono:

[Brillopad]

Please stop making up REALLY OFFENSIVE crap about me! I didn't say or even point to believing what you're claiming i did. Where do i say anything about me having a right ''to verbally abuse'' anyone ? Either delete this post now or i will be making a serious complaint about this. I NEVER report people usually but then people don't usually make up blatant lies about me.

You clearly don't have a great understanding of many things and you're more than entitled to think whatever you want about me but to use your ignorance to post wildly incorrect slander about me is disgusting and i suggest you delete these accusations and don't make any in the future.:nono:

But it's okay for you to be REALLY OFFENSIVE to me because you don't share my views! Yeah right - what is this, yet more double standards! You said a lot of slanderous things about me to which I responded. If you want to make a complaint then I will be seriously suggesting the mods read your comments and accusations first before deciding this is a one-sided 'discussion'. I suggest you re-read your last couple of posts to me and defy anyone that says they were neither offensive or slanderous.

[JTM45]

I've never just made up blatant lies about you which you clearly did about me. REMOVE IT!!!!!

[Brillopad]

I've never just made up blatant lies about you which you clearly did about me. REMOVE IT!!!!!

In your post (post 61) you called me:

Ignorant
un-knowledgeable
Self-centred
Bigoted
Discriminatory
Xenophobic and (piece de resistance)
Hate-monger

I responded with (post 63):

Ignorant
Bigoted
Discriminatory
Sexist
Verbally abusing

Please tell me where you have the higher ground on this!!

I don't believe it is me that should be removing anything. If you do, I will!!

[user104658]

Calm down kids.

[JTM45]

I'm trying to remain calm TS but there's only so much i can put up with.

[Brillopad]

I'm trying to remain calm TS but there's only so much i can put up with.

Please, you are not the victim here - I just gave as good as I got. Don't dish it out if you can't take it back.

[JTM45]

Please, you are not the victim here - I just gave as good as I got. Don't dish it out if you can't take it back.

Everything i post is based on fact and evidence. How, in any sense, have i been 'sexist' or 'bigoted' ?

I don't have a sexist cell in my entire body so where do you get off just blatantly lying ?

[Brillopad]

Everything i post is based on fact and evidence. How, in any sense, have i been 'sexist' or 'bigoted' ?

I don't have a sexist cell in my entire body so where do you get off just blatantly lying ?

I gave my opinions based on things you defend and things you don't defend in response to you giving your opinions (which btw you didn't even state them as your opinion, therefore making them sound like fact).

I stand by my right to express my view on how I find Muslim women who CHOOSE to wear a burkha in this country as disrespectful to British women and British female equality laws. I am as entitled to my opinion as you, but I did not start with the name-calling.

[smudgie]

Forgot what this thread is about now:conf:

[user104658]

Forgot what this thread is about now:conf:

Windows Vista I think.

[user104658]

No wait... it's about quoting articles in the first post.

[user104658]

Something something PC something something something free speech something something daaark side.

[smudgie]

Something something PC something something something free speech something something daaark side.

Oh right, thanks TS, they all have different headings but all end up in the same senseless squabbles.
Freedom of speech as long as you believe what I believe..hardly debating, more just baiting.:bawling:

[user104658]

Oh right, thanks TS, they all have different headings but all end up in the same senseless squabbles.
Freedom of speech as long as you believe what I believe..hardly debating, more just baiting.:bawling:

News & de Baits :hehe:

[Jack_]

I gave my opinions based on things you defend and things you don't defend in response to you giving your opinions (which btw you didn't even state them as your opinion, therefore making them sound like fact).

I stand by my right to express my view on how I find Muslim women who CHOOSE to wear a burkha in this country as disrespectful to British women and British female equality laws. I am as entitled to my opinion as you, but I did not start with the name-calling.

You do realise that many of these 'Muslim women' you keep referring to are also British women? So how does that fit into your argument?

Just to reiterate - there are British Muslims. The two are not mutually exclusive, Muslims are not some alien race of their own, implicit in your statement is an assumption that they are.

[Kizzy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeatherTrumpet View Post
"distrust and panic spread relating to Muslims."


Would you agree that the current spate of Muslim terror may have a hand in this?

‘Rather than defusing public concerns regarding demographic and cultural change, officials have unnecessarily stoked anxiety over immigration and encouraged the growth of populist anti-immigrant sentiment,’ cross-party group of MPs say

'A damning report has accused the Government of fuelling “toxic” anti-immigrant feeling just as it emerged that ministers have for years vastly overestimated the number of foreign students staying in Britain.

The inquiry from a cross-party group of politicians said Theresa May’s discredited target of cutting net migration to under 100,000 was particularly to blame for “stoking anxiety” that has accompanied unprecedented hate crime following the Brexit vote.

It also came as new official immigration data showed the number of European Union citizens wanting to come to the UK collapsing, raising fears of a pending crisis in the labour market.'


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7911241.html

[Kizzy]

Forgot what this thread is about now:conf:

Freedom of speech... I gave my opinion and was immediately accused of overreacting and scaremongering, so go figure :/

Freedom to agree with the collective is the only available option.

[Brillopad]

You do realise that many of these 'Muslim women' you keep referring to are also British women? So how does that fit into your argument?

Just to reiterate - there are British Muslims. The two are not mutually exclusive, Muslims are not some alien race of their own, implicit in your statement is an assumption that they are.

Yes of course, even more reason why they should respect female equality. Do you think most women want a Britain where we go backwards because of an increase of British women in this country whose religious/cultural beliefs are at odds with such equality? Whether it be a free-thinking opinion or one foisted on them by religious indoctrination or worse, in sufficient numbers it could pose a future threat to equality for women. Women fought hard for equality so why is it so difficult for you to understand that most don't want to see that undermined?

Where do aliens come into it or is that just an over-exaggerated attempt at making some kind of banal point!! Just a respect for the values and equality of British women will do - such a silly, pointless comment in my opinion. It is only implicit if you see what you want to see!! Half the problem on here.

[Jack_]

Yes of course, even more reason why they should respect female equality. Do you think most women want a Britain where we go backwards because of an increase of British women in this country whose religious/cultural beliefs are at odds with such equality? Whether it be a free-thinking opinion or one foisted on them by religious indoctrination or worse, in sufficient numbers it could pose a future threat to equality for women. Women fought hard for equality so why is it so difficult for you to understand that most don't want to see that undermined?

Where do aliens come into it or is that just an over-exaggerated attempt at making some kind of benal point!! Just a respect for the values and equality of British women will do - such a silly, pointless comment in my opinion.

I don't know 'most women' and neither do you so I'm not going to pretend I know which way 'most women' stand on this issue. What you need to understand is that while you are entitled to your opinion and to thinking that women wearing the burkha are somehow demeaning or even at odds with equality laws, not everyone agrees. Many of these women choose to wear one when they feel like it and that sounds like freedom of expression and equality to me. It's the same as when people try to make out that women shouldn't be entitled to wear revealing clothing, or show off their body, even slut shaming them. It works both ways, if a woman wants to wear next to nothing, and another wants to cover themselves up from head to toe, they are both empowering themselves by choosing what they want to do with their body. As a feminist you should know that. I do.

alien
ˈeɪlɪən/Submit
adjective
1.
belonging to a foreign country.

noun
noun: alien; plural noun: aliens
1.
a foreigner, especially one who is not a naturalized citizen of the country where he or she is living.

I'd have thought it would've been obvious but that's what I mean by 'aliens', not some green outer space creature. You keep making statements that imply 'British women' and 'Muslim women' are mutually exclusive, when in actual fact you can be Muslim, British and a woman! I just wanted to ensure you didn't think Muslims all come from some foreign country in their quest to ruin British equality laws or something.

[Niamh.]

Yes of course, even more reason why they should respect female equality. Do you think most women want a Britain where we go backwards because of an increase of British women in this country whose religious/cultural beliefs are at odds with such equality? Whether it be a free-thinking opinion or one foisted on them by religious indoctrination or worse, in sufficient numbers it could pose a future threat to equality for women. Women fought hard for equality so why is it so difficult for you to understand that most don't want to see that undermined?

Where do aliens come into it or is that just an over-exaggerated attempt at making some kind of banal point!! Just a respect for the values and equality of British women will do - such a silly, pointless comment in my opinion. It is only implicit if you see what you want to see!! Half the problem on here.

Whilst I kind of agree with you (I'm as anti religious as they come) forcing someone to do what you think they should do isn't a way to give these women "equality" it isn't equality if it's forced upon them. They have equal rights according to the law in Britain, it's their choice to avail of those rights or not. You may not like that but it isn't your choice. Changes within their religion has to come from those involved, the men and the women themselves. British women achieved their rights when they decided they wanted to fight for them, it wasn't a third party coming in and dictating to them what they should and shouldn't be doing.

[Brillopad]

Whilst I kind of agree with you (I'm as anti religious as they come) forcing someone to do what you think they should do isn't a way to give these women "equality" it isn't equality if it's forced upon them. They have equal rights according to the law in Britain, it's their choice to avail of those rights or not. You may not like that but it isn't your choice. Changes within their religion has to come from those involved, the men and the women themselves. British women achieved their rights when they decided they wanted to fight for them, it wasn't a third party coming in and dictating to them what they should and shouldn't be doing.

Whilst I see your point Niamh I can also see how strong religious indocrination and male control can be within certain cultures and, like many, have concerns that, in time, with suffient numbers of our population feeling that way, that could potentially override many equalities we have in this country.

Some people seem convinced that exposure to life in the West will eventually influence and Change their views. I'm not so sure. I guess time will tell, but what if it goes the other way? Where is that going to leave women? I think we have to be pro-active in protecting ourselves rather than simply assuming and hoping for the best.

[DemolitionRed]

When I walk through town on a Friday or Saturday night, I'm never surprised at how young women and some older ones behave. A woman once called me a ***t for looking in her direction. I've been deliberately pushed by a drunk ladette who was showing off to her mates and the man who used to work in the next office to me was once beaten up so badly by a bunch of women who wanted his ipad, that he was put in the hospital for three days.

I've seen women outside clubs topless. I've seen pissed up women peeing in the gutter. Do I feel intimidated by these women? Do I walk an extra half mile to avoid such women? Do I feel embarrassed for these women? The answer is yes to all of the above. I have never, however, felt any of those things when I've seen a bunch of women wearing hijab.

So Brillo, stop chanting on about Muslim women being disrespectful to our culture because as you can see from the above, it takes all sorts to make up a culture.

[Brillopad]

When I walk through town on a Friday or Saturday night, I'm never surprised at how young women and some older ones behave. A woman once called me a ***t for looking in her direction. I've been deliberately pushed by a drunk ladette who was showing off to her mates and the man who used to work in the next office to me was once beaten up so badly by a bunch of women who wanted his ipad, that he was put in the hospital for three days.

I've seen women outside clubs topless. I've seen pissed up women peeing in the gutter. Do I feel intimidated by these women? Do I walk an extra half mile to avoid such women? Do I feel embarrassed for these women? The answer is yes to all of the above. I have never, however, felt any of those things when I've seen a bunch of women wearing hijab.

So Brillo, stop chanting on about Muslim women being disrespectful to our culture because as you can see from the above, it takes all sorts to make up a culture.

It does, but most have no desire to go from one extreme to the other. At least we know those women do so through choice - there has never been any reason to think otherwise.

There are equally plenty of men who behave like that, which is no more acceptable, but do we see men at the other extreme walking around looking like they are wearing halloween costumes or tents with eyes. Sinister in more ways than one in my opinion.

[DemolitionRed]

Well I don't find it sinister but perhaps I'm just so used to it. Its been going on before I was born and it, in my opinion, is no different to how its always been. I can live with it. You find it difficult to live with but just like we have to accept outwardly slutty behavior from some of our women, so too must we accept women who believe they are being modest.

[Brillopad]

Well I don't find it sinister but perhaps I'm just so used to it. Its been going on before I was born and it, in my opinion, is no different to how its always been. I can live with it. You find it difficult to live with but just like we have to accept outwardly slutty behavior from some of our women, so too must we accept women who believe they are being modest.

You may be used to it but most Western women aren't. This is a Western country - please enlighten me why we must accept un-Western behaviour towards women?

[Withano]

You may be used to it but most Western women aren't. This is a Western country - please enlighten me why we must accept un-Western behaviour towards women?

There are probably less multi-cultural countries you could move to? Spending your life being mad at a group of people for not living like you do just seems a bit wasted to me. Very un-British too, not to get too patriotic. Have you ever considered it?

[Brillopad]

There are probably less multi-cultural countries you could move to? Spending your life being mad at a group of people for not living like you do just seems a bit wasted to me. Very un-British too, not to get too patriotic. Have you ever considered it?

In your dreams! :pat: :joker::joker:

[Withano]

In your dreams! :pat: :joker::joker:

I just wouldn't complain about the people that lived around me everyday for the rest of my life before considering moving to somewhere else personally.

[Brillopad]

I just wouldn't complain about the people that lived around me everyday for the rest of my life before considering moving to somewhere else personally.

Going on ignore now! :wavey:

[Withano]

Going on ignore now! :wavey:

Wow, all year youve been responding to my posts with bizarre senseless replies and all I had to do to stop that was ask you a genuine question :joker:

[DemolitionRed]

You may be used to it but most Western women aren't. This is a Western country - please enlighten me why we must accept un-Western behaviour towards women?

A lot of these women are Western women!
We live in a land where women can take their kids to school in their jamas ffs. We can strip off and walk naked around London providing we don't do it with the intention to cause distress, alarm or outrage. There's some BDSM guy about a mile from us who regularly dresses his consensual slaves up as half naked ponies and has them pull him in a carriage to his local pub before tying them up outside and going in for a pint and he does this through a high Muslim populated area.

Like withano says, diversity is what makes Britain great. I love living in such a tolerant nation.