Usual Guardian one-sided drivel

[Brillopad]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/08/british-muslims-islamophobic-country-jobs

As 'Islamophobia' is a made -up word used by those with a clear agenda to shut down any criticism of one particular religion, including both the author of the article and the left-wing newspaper, what value do such emotive articles have other than to stir and further attempt to shut down any discussion on Islam. How better to control!

[Withano]

"Islamophobia is a made up word, and I know this because sometimes it's difficult to criticise the religion"

[Smithy]

I don't agree with this article so it is therefore drivel and I will continue to post fair balanced articles from sources such as the sun or daily mail

[Brillopad]

I don't agree with this article so it is therefore drivel and I will continue to post fair balanced articles from sources such as the sun or daily mail

I have hardly ever posted any articles from the Sun because the paper is crap and rarely from the Mail so as not to give certain posters the excuse to rubbish it as you well know.

I post articles from a wider variety of sources than most on here, again as you well know. No surprise though that you conviently ignore such facts to suit your agenda.

[Oliver_W]

Whether or not you believe in "Islamophobia", you only have to look at the article's title know it'll be a pile of rubbish. Why bother bringing it to light, just the let that particular blogger cry into her Starbucks mug and move on.

[Jack_]

The headlines of opinion pieces are written by the editor not the author

[Tom4784]

Islamophobia doesn't exist because somebody who isn't a muslim and has serious hatred for those that are said so.

The article seemed quite balanced to me, any conclusions were based off of established facts and stats and she even acknowledged the fact that Muslim women are held back by patriarchy and traditions within muslim families so I fail to understand your claims that it isn't a balanced article.

I assume you googled for stories about muslims, saw this headline and decided to get mad about it without actually reading the article itself. I'd advise you do so although I still suppose you'd try to invalidate it as you cannot accept opinions that don't allign with your own. Instead of arguing against an opinion you dislike, you can only try to shut them down.

[Tom4784]

Whether or not you believe in "Islamophobia", you only have to look at the article's title know it'll be a pile of rubbish. Why bother bringing it to light, just the let that particular blogger cry into her Starbucks mug and move on.

So you haven't read the article?

[Brillopad]

Whether or not you believe in "Islamophobia", you only have to look at the article's title know it'll be a pile of rubbish. Why bother bringing it to light, just the let that particular blogger cry into her Starbucks mug and move on.

The head knows you are right ...

[Oliver_W]

So you haven't read the article?

I did not, but from your previous post it's good to know she called out some of the cackier aspects of islamic culture :)

[Withano]

If I had an argument, and it could be shut down entirely by a single negative descriptor of my argument, I'd probably conclude that i don't have much of an argument. Probably because that single negative word would probably tell me a lot that I didn't know about myself before I made the argument.

[Tom4784]

I did not, but from your previous post it's good to know she called out some of the cackier aspects of islamic culture :)

So you're judging an article without reading it?

[Tom4784]

If I had an argument, and it could be shut down entirely by a single negative descriptor of my argument, I'd probably conclude that i don't have much of an argument. Probably because that single negative word would probably tell me a lot that I didn't know about myself before I made the argument.

Very true, only the flimsiest of arguments can be shut down with one word.

[Greg!]

Well obviously it's one-sided, that's kind of the point of an opinion piece.

[Brillopad]

So you're judging an article without reading it?

As the well respected Dr. Jordan Peterson, who has been studying Islam for at least three years, said 'The word Islamophobia is a reprehensible word, a crooked word with manipulation built into its structure. Phobia is a word with medical, clinical and psychological meaning and the word Islamophobia has no place and no value within those fields'.

It is purely an agenda driven word used by those with an agenda - nothing more and nothing less.

[Niamh.]

Aren't all words made up?

[Oliver_W]

As the well respected Dr. Jordan Peterson, who has been studying Islam for at least three years, said 'The word Islamophobia is a reprehensible word, a crooked word with manipulation built into its structure. Phobia is a word with medical, clinical and psychological meaning and the word Islamophobia has no place and no value within those fields'.

It is purely an agenda driven word used by those with an agenda - nothing more and nothing less.
Phobia also means irrational, and there's nothing irrational about disliking islam. Needs to at that doesn't justifying assaulting individual muslims, but being fearful or whatever toward the ideology is justified.
Either way, it's semantics, who cares.

[Withano]

As the well respected Dr. Jordan Peterson, who has been studying Islam for at least three years, said 'The word Islamophobia is a reprehensible word, a crooked word with manipulation built into its structure. Phobia is a word with medical, clinical and psychological meaning and the word Islamophobia has no place and no value within those fields'.

It is purely an agenda driven word used by those with an agenda - nothing more and nothing less.

Dr Jordan Peterson, who studied Islam for whatever reason didn't seem to study word origins though? A very quick Google explains that the Greek word loosely translates to 'an aversion to', and has many non-clinical uses which describe a dislike, prejudice or disapproval.
You and Dr Jordan have looked at a suffix of a word, took it very literallly, shoved your fingers in your ears, and then kicked up a fuss. And thats a bit silly.

[Tom4784]

As the well respected Dr. Jordan Peterson, who has been studying Islam for at least three years, said 'The word Islamophobia is a reprehensible word, a crooked word with manipulation built into its structure. Phobia is a word with medical, clinical and psychological meaning and the word Islamophobia has no place and no value within those fields'.

It is purely an agenda driven word used by those with an agenda - nothing more and nothing less.

So another non muslim telling muslims that islamophobia doesn't exist.

Go back to the 50's and this guy would probably be saying the same thing to black people about racism.

Also you should really read the article that you took the time to post. You obviously haven't read anything but the headline.

[Brillopad]

So another non muslim telling muslims that islamophobia doesn't exist.

Go back to the 50's and this guy would probably be saying the same thing to black people about racism.

Also you should really read the article that you took the time to post. You obviously haven't read anything but the headline.

Come back when you have the qualifications and experience he has. Give me an informed opinion over an emotional one.

Let's not forget for those Muslims looking to shut down any criticism of Islam the word is a very convenient one. It is used as a weapon by many to further their agendas and it has no valid meaning except in the eyes of those using it.

[Tom4784]

Come back when you have the qualifications and experience he has. Give me an informed opinion over an emotional one.

Let's not forget for those Muslims looking to shut down any criticism of Islam the word is a very convenient one. It is used as a weapon by many to further their agendas and it has no valid meaning except in the eyes of those using it.

Seriously?

You, who refused to read the article YOU posted because it doesn't justify your hatred is accusing me, who actually READ the article, of being uninformed is just....well I can't say I'm surprised because your insane level of hypocrisy is incapable of surprising me anymore.

He can have all the qualifications in the world, none of which would allow him to tell a minority that he isn't part of that they aren't discriminated against. There's no qualifications for that ****.

[Brillopad]

Seriously?

You, who refused to read the article YOU posted because it doesn't justify your hatred is accusing me, who actually READ the article, of being uninformed is just....well I can't say I'm surprised because your insane level of hypocrisy is incapable of surprising me anymore.

He can have all the qualifications in the world, none of which would allow him to tell a minority that he isn't part of that they aren't discriminated against. There's no qualifications for that ****.

I did read it. When did I say I didn't? More of the usual hysterical assumptions from you in a desperate attempt to undermine me.

The opinions of minories are still only opinions, not fact. And even if some employers are hesitant to employ Muslims it would be very convenient to lay the blame solely at the feet of the employer as the religion has so many codes of behaviour and dress. I would imagine not many employers would be too keen to have women turning up for work in a burkha for instance or workers requiring several paid prayer breaks throughout the day and a room to use as a prayer room.

I can't see many Muslim employers choosing a non-Muslim over a Muslim if equally qualified. Employers often state they want someone who will fit it. Employees also expect to have to adhere to certain dress codes. It's called the real world.

[Oliver_W]

To be fair Peterson didn't say muslims aren't discriminated against, he said that "Islamophobia" isn't the right word.

[DemolitionRed]

Phobia also means irrational, and there's nothing irrational about disliking islam. Needs to at that doesn't justifying assaulting individual muslims, but being fearful or whatever toward the ideology is justified.
Either way, it's semantics, who cares.

perhaps in your world but in my world its very irrational. ISIS doesn't represent Islam and so being fearful of what Islam represents isn't justified either. Education is a great resource to your fears but be warned, the wrong sort of education could have you believe all Muslims are warriors who think alike.

[DemolitionRed]

I did read it. When did I say I didn't? More of the usual hysterical assumptions from you in a desperate attempt to undermine me.

The opinions of minories are still only opinions, not fact. And even if some employers are hesitant to employ Muslims it would be very convenient to lay the blame solely at the feet of the employer as the religion has so many codes of behaviour and dress. I would imagine not many employers would be too keen to have women turning up for work in a burkha for instance or workers requiring several paid prayer breaks throughout the day and a room to use as a prayer room.

I can't see many Muslim employers choosing a non-Muslim over a Muslim if equally qualified. Employers often state they want someone who will fit it. Employees also expect to have to adhere to certain dress codes. It's called the real world.

SCREAMS... This bitter pill again?

[Oliver_W]

perhaps in your world but in my world its very irrational. ISIS doesn't represent Islam and so being fearful of what Islam represents isn't justified either. Education is a great resource to your fears but be warned, the wrong sort of education could have you believe all Muslims are warriors who think alike.

Straaaawmaaaan. I didn't mention ISIS, nor did I say all muslims think alike. However, islamic culture currently includes FGM, throwing gay off rooves, and child marriage. Which of these is it irrational to be against?

[Brillopad]

perhaps in your world but in my world its very irrational. ISIS doesn't represent Islam and so being fearful of what Islam represents isn't justified either. Education is a great resource to your fears but be warned, the wrong sort of education could have you believe all Muslims are warriors who think alike.

That reads as only anything pro-Islam is the 'right' education. Blinkered maybe!

[Brillopad]

Straaaawmaaaan. I didn't mention ISIS, nor did I say all muslims think alike. However, islamic culture currently includes FGM, throwing gay off rooves, and child marriage. Which of these is it irrational to be against?

As those children have no say in their marriages often to much older men it is also child rape.

[JTM45]

That reads as only anything pro-Islam is the 'right' education. Blinkered maybe!

Yes you are, extremely! If that's how you read DR's comment then that shows just how blinkered you are. Your motto should be 'Hate and divide'.

[Brillopad]

Yes you are, extremely! If that's how you read DR's comment then that shows just how blinkered you are. Your motto should be 'Hate and divide'.

No my motto is to 'question dubious religious practice'. Without such questioning all number of atrocities have been carried out in the name of religion.

Using terminology such as 'hate and divide' against those that question is diversion tactics and a weak attempt to shut down such questioning.

[JTM45]

There are dubious practices amongst the vast majority of religions yet you constantly only drone on about those attributed to the Muslim religion. Far more people in the UK have suffered at the hands of the Catholic religion.

[Kizzy]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/08/british-muslims-islamophobic-country-jobs

As 'Islamophobia' is a made -up word used by those with a clear agenda to shut down any criticism of one particular religion, including both the author of the article and the left-wing newspaper, what value do such emotive articles have other than to stir and further attempt to shut down any discussion on Islam. How better to control!

How about antisemitism, is that made up?

[jaxie]

perhaps in your world but in my world its very irrational. ISIS doesn't represent Islam and so being fearful of what Islam represents isn't justified either. Education is a great resource to your fears but be warned, the wrong sort of education could have you believe all Muslims are warriors who think alike.

So you are saying it's irrational to be an atheist? :shrug: But it's not irrational to believe there is a king in the sky who will let you into a virgin debauching party when you die? And We will all be down with that if we are educated?

[Brillopad]

There are dubious practices amongst the vast majority of religions yet you constantly only drone on about those attributed to the Muslim religion. Far more people in the UK have suffered at the hands of the Catholic religion.

Maybe, maybe not - but Islam is the religion currently out there, constantly shoved down our throats and the one even given a made-up name in an attempt to shut down criticism. It is the most vocal demanding special treatment such as sharia law, prayer breaks in the workplace, exemption from criticism and jokes, automatic respect from non-Muslims whilst not doing the same for other religions. The dubious practices of the religion often seem to get lost behind all that.

[Brillopad]

How about antisemitism, is that made up?

Not to my knowledge.

[Kizzy]

Not to my knowledge.

Could that not be said to be a made up word that is used when a specific group is criticised?

Don't want to appear hypocritical do you?

[Oliver_W]

There are dubious practices amongst the vast majority of religions yet you constantly only drone on about those attributed to the Muslim religion. Far more people in the UK have suffered at the hands of the Catholic religion.
In the past, sure. It's a bit of a moot point as there aren't any post defending Catholicism, nor any threads about it.

[Kizzy]

In the past, sure. It's a bit of a moot point as there aren't any post defending Catholicism, nor any threads about it.

In the past?... :/

It isn't a 'moot' point it is entirely comparable, is it perhaps not considered repressive, oppressive and suppressive enough due to the fact it happens to be a Christian religion?

[Brillopad]

Could that not be said to be a made up word that is used when a specific group is criticised?

Don't want to appear hypocritical do you?

Well as many Muslims seem to be antisemetic it's a strange word to try to make comparisons with.

Whatever, at least it isn't a word trying to hide behind a 'clinical' definition to give it more clout. It's pretentious nonsence.

[Kizzy]

Well as many Muslims seem to be antisemetic it's a strange word to try to make comparisons with.

Whatever, at least it isn't a word trying to hide behind a 'clinical' definition to give it more clout. It's pretentious nonsence.

All words have a clinical definition, that's why there are dictionaries.

Again you are entirely fixating on Muslims...My point is if there is a word that defines the maligning of one group why then is it so unreasonable to have a word equal in it's definition for another.

It appears hypocritical

[Oliver_W]

In the past?... :/

It isn't a 'moot' point it is entirely comparable, is it perhaps not considered repressive, oppressive and suppressive enough due to the fact it happens to be a Christian religion?

Feel free to start a thread. Maybe you could mention how the culture surrounding the religion drives people to take their daughter abroad for FGM or child marriage. Ohwait, wrong religion.

[Oliver_W]

Well as many Muslims seem to be antisemetic it's a strange word to try to make comparisons with.

Whatever, at least it isn't a word trying to hide behind a 'clinical' definition to give it more clout. It's pretentious nonsence.

Pick your battles - it's a "made up word" so who cares. The phobia isn't added to the end to make it sound clinical, it's just a word.

[user104658]

Whatever, at least it isn't a word trying to hide behind a 'clinical' definition to give it more clout. It's pretentious nonsence.

I agree, we should stop calling it Islamophobia and start calling it what it is.

Racism.

But you're not a big fan of that one either, are you Brillo? In fact, it seems like you would like to "ban" any "negative sounding" word from being used to describe people who like to spout hatred about Muslims. I wonder why that is?

[Marsh.]

All words have a clinical definition, that's why there are dictionaries.

Again you are entirely fixating on Muslims...My point is if there is a word that defines the maligning of one group why then is it so unreasonable to have a word equal in it's definition for another.

It appears hypocritical

Or hypo-clinical :hehe:

[Brillopad]

I agree, we should stop calling it Islamophobia and start calling it what it is.

Racism.

But you're not a big fan of that one either, are you Brillo? In fact, it seems like you would like to "ban" any "negative sounding" word from being used to describe people who like to spout hatred about Muslims. I wonder why that is?

You could, but that of course would be technically incorrect as race and religion are not one and the same.

If you disapprove of a religion and its practices you must therefore be 'racist' - yeah that makes sense!

Sounds more like a case of adding 2+2 together and coming up with 5.

[user104658]

You could, but that of course would be technically incorrect as race and religion are not one and the same.

If you disapprove of a religion and its practices you must therefore be 'racist' - yeah that makes sense!

Are you saying that you have no problem whatsoever with middle-eastern immigrants who are nonreligious?

[Brillopad]

Are you saying that you have no problem whatsoever with middle-eastern immigrants who are nonreligious?

Generally no I don't. But it would of course depend on other factors such as views and behaviour. If a group of people for instance are known for mistreating women, it would not be desirable or acceptable whether they tried to justify that with religion or not.

[DemolitionRed]

So you are saying it's irrational to be an atheist? :shrug: But it's not irrational to believe there is a king in the sky who will let you into a virgin debauching party when you die? And We will all be down with that if we are educated?

How on earth did you come up with that?

Muslims don't frighten me.
I don't fear Muslims.
I am not Muslim.
I respect the Muslim faith the same as I respect any faith.
I also respect atheists.
I don't agree with some religious practices. FGM is not a religious practice though.

[DemolitionRed]

Maybe, maybe not - but Islam is the religion currently out there, constantly shoved down our throats and the one even given a made-up name in an attempt to shut down criticism. It is the most vocal demanding special treatment such as sharia law, prayer breaks in the workplace, exemption from criticism and jokes, automatic respect from non-Muslims whilst not doing the same for other religions. The dubious practices of the religion often seem to get lost behind all that.

No, its not out there any more than Judism or Christianity. Its only 'out there' on here where you continually bring up the subject of this religion so you can demonize it. You constantly try to ram its evils down our throats.

You clearly read up on its evilness all the time because every time you find something you deem a little juicy, you bring it here to 'shove it down our throats'.

[Oliver_W]

I don't agree with some religious practices. FGM is not a religious practice though.
It's not scripturally informed, true, but it's part of islamic culture.

[DemolitionRed]

It's not scripturally informed, true, but it's part of islamic culture.

On the African continent but not in the Middle East. Voodooism is also a big part of African culture.

[DemolitionRed]

I agree, we should stop calling it Islamophobia and start calling it what it is.

Racism.

But you're not a big fan of that one either, are you Brillo? In fact, it seems like you would like to "ban" any "negative sounding" word from being used to describe people who like to spout hatred about Muslims. I wonder why that is?

I strongly agree.

[Brillopad]

You clearly read up on its evilness all the time because every time you find something you deem a little juicy, you bring it here to 'shove it down our throats'.

That's the point though - I don't have to find something as it is there on the news, in the papers, on our streets - everywhere. It is not a quiet, discreet religion that just gets on with life. It throws its weight around and constantly seeks attention.

[Brillopad]

I strongly agree.

So you don't get the difference between the two. :shrug:

[Oliver_W]

No, its not out there any more than Judism or Christianity. Its only 'out there' on here where you continually bring up the subject of this religion so you can demonize it. You constantly try to ram its evils down our throats.

Do the cultures surrounding Christianity and Judaism currently cause comparable issues, and are people called bigots or racist for opposing them?

On the African continent but not in the Middle East.
You can't definitive say not in the middle east when it's present in Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

[Tom4784]

I did read it. When did I say I didn't? More of the usual hysterical assumptions from you in a desperate attempt to undermine me.

The opinions of minories are still only opinions, not fact. And even if some employers are hesitant to employ Muslims it would be very convenient to lay the blame solely at the feet of the employer as the religion has so many codes of behaviour and dress. I would imagine not many employers would be too keen to have women turning up for work in a burkha for instance or workers requiring several paid prayer breaks throughout the day and a room to use as a prayer room.

I can't see many Muslim employers choosing a non-Muslim over a Muslim if equally qualified. Employers often state they want someone who will fit it. Employees also expect to have to adhere to certain dress codes. It's called the real world.

I don't think you did read it. I think you saw the headline and went from there.

You really seem to struggle to differentiate between facts and opinions unless it's signposted to you don't you? The article that you pretended to read is what's called an 'Opinion Piece' everything presented within it was an opinion HOWEVER the writer used facts and figures to qualify their opinion and back up their thoughts. She didn't say 'this is my opinion and it is FACT!' She essentially said 'This is my opinion and here are the statistics to back it up'. You really need to learn the difference between a fact and opinion and you need to learn to spot it, people shouldn't have to signpost the fact that their opinions are actually opinions for your benefit. You should be able to tell instantly.

If an employer chose not to employ someone who was suited for the role because of their religion, that's called discrimination. Do I need to explain what that is to you too?

You....You don't have much experience of interacting with Muslims in a work place, do you? (or in general, I bet). I've worked with plenty in my time, I've hired a few. I do the Rotas at my current job and the only thing I've ever been asked is if they can swap their days off for Eid or, failing that, if they can use their holiday days for it which is no different to anyone of any religion asking for a day off for their holidays. I think you think that Burkhas are really common too but they aren't. If a muslim woman chooses to wear a scarf (there's two currently at my store and only one of them does) then they'll more often than not opt to wear a Hijab.

I've never worked with anyone who has paid prayer breaks of any religion, never mind having a special prayer room to do it in. I think this is just another irrational argument to try to justify what is discrimination against Muslims in the work place.

If a Muslim employer refused to employ people because they weren't muslim then that would be discrimination too and an unlikely hypothetical situation does not justify you basically saying that discriminating against Muslims in the work place is okay.

I'd advise you try to learn more about what actual muslims are like, your hatred of them is built upon a Daily Mail inspired image of them that simply does not reflect the majority. You have a real hatred based on what is an imaginary and not at all realistic image of an average muslim. It's sad really, all irrational hatreds and prejudices are.

[Brillopad]

I don't think you did read it. I think you saw the headline and went from there.

You really seem to struggle to differentiate between facts and opinions unless it's signposted to you don't you? The article that you pretended to read is what's called an 'Opinion Piece' everything presented within it was an opinion HOWEVER the writer used facts and figures to qualify their opinion and back up their thoughts. She didn't say 'this is my opinion and it is FACT!' She essentially said 'This is my opinion and here are the statistics to back it up'. You really need to learn the difference between a fact and opinion and you need to learn to spot it, people shouldn't have to signpost the fact that their opinions are actually opinions for your benefit. You should be able to tell instantly.

If an employer chose not to employ someone who was suited for the role because of their religion, that's called discrimination. Do I need to explain what that is to you too?

You....You don't have much experience of interacting with Muslims in a work place, do you? (or in general, I bet). I've worked with plenty in my time, I've hired a few. I do the Rotas at my current job and the only thing I've ever been asked is if they can swap their days off for Eid or, failing that, if they can use their holiday days for it which is no different to anyone of any religion asking for a day off for their holidays. I think you think that Burkhas are really common too but they aren't. If a muslim woman chooses to wear a scarf (there's two currently at my store and only one of them does) then they'll more often than not opt to wear a Hijab.

I've never worked with anyone who has paid prayer breaks of any religion, never mind having a special prayer room to do it in. I think this is just another irrational argument to try to justify what is discrimination against Muslims in the work place.

If a Muslim employer refused to employ people because they weren't muslim then that would be discrimination too and an unlikely hypothetical situation does not justify you basically saying that discriminating against Muslims in the work place is okay.

I'd advise you try to learn more about what actual muslims are like, your hatred of them is built upon a Daily Mail inspired image of them that simply does not reflect the majority. You have a real hatred based on what is an imaginary and not at all realistic image of an average muslim. It's sad really, all irrational hatreds and prejudices are.

You can think what you like but I read it so stop making a show of yourself accusing me of not reading it when you can't possibly know that. Frankly I don't believe you have employed anyone. Just my thoughts!

People discriminate against people for all sorts of reasons but most don't get protection written into laws. Good luck trying to prove someone had not got a job based on discrimination. It could just as easily be claimed someone had got the job based on 'positive discrimination, or based on fear of being accused of discrimination which is not he way we should go. People should get jobs based on merit and nothing else. If you have 'hired a few' you should be aware of the issues with prayer breaks - I suggest you read up on it.

Hate seems to be a word you have a lot of affinity with so maybe a bit of self-reflection would be the way to go.

[Marsh.]

People discriminate against people for all sorts of reasons but most don't get protection written into laws.

Erm... yes they do.

[Brillopad]

Erm... yes they do.

Really. What about fat people, ugly people, short people - the list is endless.

[Tom4784]

You can think what you like but I read it so stop making a show of yourself accusing me of not reading it when you can't possibly know that. Frankly I don't believe you have employed anyone. Just my thoughts!

People discriminate against people for all sorts of reasons but most don't get protection written into laws. Good luck trying to prove someone had not got a job based on discrimination. It could just as easily be claimed someone had got the job based on 'positive discrimination, or based on fear of being accused of discrimination which is not he way we should go. People should get jobs based on merit and nothing else. If you have 'hired a few' you should be aware of the issues with prayer breaks - I suggest you read up on it.

Hate seems to be a word you have a lot of affinity with so maybe a bit of self-reflection would be the way to go.

Weak parroted jibes from a racist will never offend me.

Protections are there for everyone, Brillo. If you knew the first thing you were talking about when it came to discrimination laws then you would understand that. Again, the hypothetical situation you suggested is just another weak attempt at justification for the fact that you think it should be okay for people to be discriminated against in the workplace because they are muslim.

When have I said that people shouldn't be hired on merit? I've only hired people on merit, it's also a bit strange for you to make that point when you were suggesting that if a muslim doesn't get hired on the grounds that they are a muslim that it's their fault for being a muslim? Which one is it? Do you hire based on merit or based on religious and racial preference? You can't champion both when it suits you.

You keep speaking of articles because you don't have any actual experience of interacting with muslims, you let Buzzfeed and the alt right websites you stumble across on google inform your opinion because the reality that muslims are no different to anyone else doesn't fit well with your confirmation bias.

I've worked with many muslims and I have muslim friends and I've never known any of them to demand extra breaks or special treatment on the grounds of their religion. I'll take my actual experiences to be more indicative of the average muslim in a workplace over the fantasies presented by alt right websites to attract the clicks of racists.

[Brillopad]

Weak parroted jibes from a racist will never offend me.

Protections are there for everyone, Brillo. If you knew the first thing you were talking about when it came to discrimination laws then you would understand that. Again, the hypothetical situation you suggested is just another weak attempt at justification for the fact that you think it should be okay for people to be discriminated against in the workplace because they are muslim.

When have I said that people shouldn't be hired on merit? I've only hired people on merit, it's also a bit strange for you to make that point when you were suggesting that if a muslim doesn't get hired on the grounds that they are a muslim that it's their fault for being a muslim? Which one is it? Do you hire based on merit or based on religious and racial preference? You can't champion both when it suits you.

You keep speaking of articles because you don't have any actual experience of interacting with muslims, you let Buzzfeed and the alt right websites you stumble across on google inform your opinion because the reality that muslims are no different to anyone else doesn't fit well with your confirmation bias.

I've worked with many muslims and I have muslim friends and I've never known any of them to demand extra breaks or special treatment on the grounds of their religion. I'll take my actual experiences to be more indicative of the average muslim in a workplace over the fantasies presented by alt right websites to attract the clicks of racists.

I work in a hospital. There are plenty of Muslims, but thankfully no Burkhas. Common sense does sometimes prevail.

I don't go on alt right websites - I just quote from current news articles that come up. If a few of them happen to be alt-right so be it. Unless I google about them first I don't generally know they are Alt-right websites unless I have come across them before - you really do need to curb that paranoia of yours.

I also suggest you look up the meanings of racist, Islamophobia and xenophobic - they are all different and only one is directly related to race! To accuse people of racism without actual evidence is not a good look, amongst other things.

[DemolitionRed]

That's the point though - I don't have to find something as it is there on the news, in the papers, on our streets - everywhere. It is not a quiet, discreet religion that just gets on with life. It throws its weight around and constantly seeks attention.

Its there in your news feed but not in mine. Just means we have very different news sources.

[DemolitionRed]

Do the cultures surrounding Christianity and Judaism currently cause comparable issues, and are people called bigots or racist for opposing them?

Yes

You can't definitive say not in the middle east when it's present in Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia.

Only in the most remote uncivilized tribes. In civilized society and there's a lot of civilized society in Kuwait and SA (not so much in Iraq anymore because we turned that into a dust bowl) people who use FGM are looked down on as ignorant peasants.

In Africa its still a big problem but in the ME and Arabic regions its dying out.

[user104658]

I also suggest you look up the meanings of racist, Islamophobia and xenophobic - they are all different and only one is directly related to race! To accuse people of racism without actual evidence is not a good look, amongst other things.

They do all have different meanings Brillo but, to be brutally blunt here, you've been guilty of all three at various times on this forum. In terms of evidence... Well... There's your post history always only a few clicks away.

[Brillopad]

They do all have different meanings Brillo but, to be brutally blunt here, you've been guilty of all three at various times on this forum. In terms of evidence... Well... There's your post history always only a few clicks away.

According to interpretation perhaps but I would be surprised if I have said anything blatantly proven as racist as I don't believe I am. Intent is the key, not the way someone else perceives it.

[Marsh.]

Well, I doubt any bigot purposely sees themselves as such and believes absolutely their thoughts to be rational. That doesn't suddenly mean they're not racist or bigoted, because they personally don't believe they are.

[Brillopad]

Well, I doubt any bigot purposely sees themselves as such and believes absolutely their thoughts to be rational. That doesn't suddenly mean they're not racist or bigoted, because they personally don't believe they are.

Neither does it mean they are based on someone else's viewpoint. I do believe however that some of those that do accuse others of being so do so with fore-thought.

[Marsh.]

Neither does it mean they are based on someone else's viewpoint. I do believe however that some of those that do accuse others of being so do so with fore-thought.

Well, no. Racism, sexism, ageism, any kind of discrimination is factual. There's no viewpoint about it.

If you're discriminating against someone because of a particular attribute then that is bigoted, no two ways about it.

[Brillopad]

Well, no. Racism, sexism, ageism, any kind of discrimination is factual. There's no viewpoint about it.

If you're discriminating against someone because of a particular attribute then that is bigoted, no two ways about it.

You miss the point- some see isms round every corner because they misinterpret or see what they want to. Interpretation is not the same as fact.

[Brillopad]

Weak parroted jibes from a racist will never offend me.

Protections are there for everyone, Brillo. If you knew the first thing you were talking about when it came to discrimination laws then you would understand that. Again, the hypothetical situation you suggested is just another weak attempt at justification for the fact that you think it should be okay for people to be discriminated against in the workplace because they are muslim.

When have I said that people shouldn't be hired on merit? I've only hired people on merit, it's also a bit strange for you to make that point when you were suggesting that if a muslim doesn't get hired on the grounds that they are a muslim that it's their fault for being a muslim? Which one is it? Do you hire based on merit or based on religious and racial preference? You can't champion both when it suits you.

You keep speaking of articles because you don't have any actual experience of interacting with muslims, you let Buzzfeed and the alt right websites you stumble across on google inform your opinion because the reality that muslims are no different to anyone else doesn't fit well with your confirmation bias.

I've worked with many muslims and I have muslim friends and I've never known any of them to demand extra breaks or special treatment on the grounds of their religion. I'll take my actual experiences to be more indicative of the average muslim in a workplace over the fantasies presented by alt right websites to attract the clicks of racists.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/practices/salat.shtml

[user104658]

According to interpretation perhaps but I would be surprised if I have said anything blatantly proven as racist as I don't believe I am. Intent is the key, not the way someone else perceives it.Again in the spirit of honesty Brillo, my stance towards you has actually softened over time because I have realised that you genuinely don't realise that you're being racist or, in your case accurately, xenophobic. I think it genuinely does come from a place of real fear.

But no; intent is not key. In fact, the vast majority of racism is subconscious, so far from being "key", intent really isn't all that important at all.

Outcome is key.

[Brillopad]

Again in the spirit of honesty Brillo, my stance towards you has actually softened over time because I have realised that you genuinely don't realise that you're being racist or, in your case accurately, xenophobic. I think it genuinely does come from a place of real fear.

But no; intent is not key. In fact, the vast majority of racism is subconscious, so far from being "key", intent really isn't all that important at all.

Outcome is key.


The thing is there is a thin line between outcome and perceived outcome in my opinion, as we see on here too often, when some use the word 'racism' as a tool to exert control over the thinking/behaviour of others. The word is regularly abused due to agendas.

I believe many are blurring the lines between race and religion, either consciously or sub-consciously. They are not the sane thing. Religion is, or should be, a lifestyle choice. It isn't a physical or mental entity over which we have no control. It is a choice and choice comes with responsibility. Personal choice can and should be challenged when imposed on others.

Almost every country/culture in the world wants to preserve its heritage and way of life. Britain is no exception. You can call that 'fear' if you want to, but i feel it shows a healthy respect for what one has and their value of it. Don't we all aspire to that - to value what we have and passing that to future generations.

I am not opposed to different cultures or way of lives, just that incoming religions to a country should assimilate not dominate.

[Marsh.]

You miss the point- some see isms round every corner because they misinterpret or see what they want to. Interpretation is not the same as fact.
I'm not missing the point.

Discrimination is not a misinterpretation. It either happens or it doesn't.

[Brillopad]

I'm not missing the point.

Discrimination is not a misinterpretation. It either happens or it doesn't.

Rubbish - people twist and put interpretation on things all the time- trying to label criticism of religion as racist. Total nonsence.

[Tom4784]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/islam/practices/salat.shtml

Like with any religion, most muslims won't follow it to the letter. I've never known any muslims that pray five times a day and they certainly don't set out to inconvenience people with their religion.

Keep linking these articles of islamic practices and making out that every muslim follows them, it just shows how ignorant you are of the average muslim.

[Brillopad]

Like with any religion, most muslims won't follow it to the letter. I've never known any muslims that pray five times a day and they certainly don't set out to inconvenience people with their religion.

Keep linking these articles of islamic practices and making out that every muslim follows them, it just shows how ignorant you are of the average muslim.

Whatever, but it does say that prayers are obligatory at certain times of the day and that all Muslims do this.

[Tom4784]

The thing is there is a thin line between outcome and perceived outcome in my opinion, as we see on here too often, when some use the word 'racism' as a tool to exert control over the thinking/behaviour of others. The word is regularly abused due to agendas.

I believe many are blurring the lines between race and religion, either consciously or sub-consciously. They are not the sane thing. Religion is, or should be, a lifestyle choice. It isn't a physical or mental entity over which we have no control. It is a choice and choice comes with responsibility. Personal choice can and should be challenged when imposed on others.

Almost every country/culture in the world wants to preserve its heritage and way of life. Britain is no exception. You can call that 'fear' if you want to, but i feel it shows a healthy respect for what one has and their value of it. Don't we all aspire to that - to value what we have and passing that to future generations.

I am not opposed to different cultures or way of lives, just that incoming religions to a country should assimilate not dominate.

How weak willed must someone be that one word can destroy anything they say? If you believe your argument can be shut down by an accusation of racism then your argument was weak to begin with. You've accused me of plenty in the past but I've not broken down and tried to make out that you shouldn't be allowed to make those accusations, instead I've curbstomped those accusations.

You have been determined to make out that 'racism' and 'bigotry' are dirty words that are more grave than the injustices they represent because you are guilty of both. If you weren't then you wouldn't try to restrict people calling others out on it. Accusations can't shut down arguments if they are false.

As for blurring the lines between race and religion....
http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321734&highlight=chores

In this thread you saw a child with brown skin and two arabic sounding names and made conclusions based on that alone, you didn't know they were muslim, you just made assumptions based purely on their race.

The whole 'preserving culture' bull**** is just another attempt at vindicating your hate. You only pretend to be a feminist when you think it gives you the right to bash muslims otherwise you'll support things like the DUP deal and the 'Moggmentum' movement despite that both the party and Rees-Mogg have displayed extreme anti-women's rights views. You'll claim to hate Political Correctness yet you embrace it as long as it protects your views yet you'll go back to hating it as soon as it isn't beneficial to you. Same with Freedom of Speech, you love it when it enables you to be as racist as you like but you'll try to encroach on the rights of others who have differing opinions to you. The only thing you truly stand for is hating muslims, all these other stances you take are just (in your own mind) justifications for your bigotry.

Your last sentence continues to reveal your ignorance about muslims in general. You think they are some kind of Cybermen that will convert all in their path to their religion which just isn't indicative to the average muslim. You are a slave to your own bigotry and anything that adheres to your confirmation bias.

[Tom4784]

Whatever, but it does say that prayers are obligatory at certain times of the day and that all Muslims do this.

Brillo, do you think every Christian follows the bible to the letter? Same for the Jews? Or any other religion that isn't Islam?

Most people pick and choose the parts of the religion that they believe in to follow because every holy text of every religion is basically impossible to follow fully given how often ALL religious texts contradict themselves. You like to think that all Muslims are dangerous fundamentalists because it suits your image of them but, just like any other religion, there are both fundamentalists, moderates and every variety inbetween.

To say that all muslims do anything is incredibly ignorant because not every muslim has the same level of faith or the same outlook on their religion.

[Vicky.]

Whatever, but it does say that prayers are obligatory at certain times of the day and that all Muslims do this.

All Muslims try to do this.

Though its very weird how the article presumes that they know what all Muslims would try to do :shrug: I guess a similar article about Christians would say that all Christians try to go to church every Sunday and pray everyday or something, when thats not strictly true at all. Yes strict Christians will probably do this, certainly not the majority of those who identify with the faith.

I have only ever worked with one Muslim dude. And he was only 'Muslim' as his parents pressured him. When he was away from them he ate bacon sandwiches for breakfast, drank on a weekend, smoked and never prayed (or definitely didnt make a fuss of doing so as I never noticed him doing it)

Hopefully religion overall will mostly die out as time goes on. I know many people who 'have faith' to please their parents/grandparents.

I have no doubt that some Muslim people make a fuss and expect special treatment because of their faith. But you get arseholes in all walks of life tbh. And its usually only the arseholes that get attention.

[Marsh.]

Rubbish - people twist and put interpretation on things all the time- trying to label criticism of religion as racist. Total nonsence.
Well that's not what I was commenting on. That's your disagreement with another poster. I couldn't tell you if your criticism of religion had any racism about it, we don't really speak.

But racism is racism, there is no "opinion" about it. It either is or it isn't. If something or someone is discriminatory about race then it's racism. Plain and simple.

[Underscore]

Better than Daily Fail one-sided racist, sexist and homophobic drivel.

[Brillopad]

Well that's not what I was commenting on. That's your disagreement with another poster. I couldn't tell you if your criticism of religion had any racism about it, we don't really speak.

But racism is racism, there is no "opinion" about it. It either is or it isn't. If something or someone is discriminatory about race then it's racism. Plain and simple.

Yes racism is racism and sexism is sexism etc, but unfortunately people often put their own interpretation on these things and the lines get blurred between racism and religion.

[Kizzy]

I think it's important not to lose sight of the differential between 'opinion' pieces and 'factual' ones ( as in there is written or statistical evidence provided)