Drugs to gender change children

[jaxie]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4959094/Parents-want-NHS-son-12-puberty-halting-drugs.html

This story popped up in my Google news feed this morning and I wondered what people thought about children under 16, sometimes under 10 being given puberty halting and gender change hormones. On checking out the story I found a report on the same child from 2015 so he/she is already undergoing treatment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/12-year-old-boy-trans-female-change-mind-years-later-patrick-mitchell-australia-oestrogen-hormones-a7933741.html

I also found this story about a boy who changed his mind. In my view a child is too young to decide to have this life changing therapy and doctors seem to be giving it out like candy. How can you be sure at 9 what sex you really want to be, most children because they are children are to a degree gender neutral without the drives and life creating elements that are part of gender, until the hormones kick in at puberty anyway so how can you know you don't want to be a man until you have any experience of it.

What do others think on this issue?

[Kizzy]

It's hard to imagine how you would feel tbf, if doctors are taking these children seriously after several years of consultation think delaying puberty is warranted instead of dismissing the child and risking them reacting badly to their changes and committing suicide then that is obviously the preferred option.

[jaxie]

Doctors don't always know best, there have been some murderous ones that indicate they aren't all saintly and beyond reproach.

I'm not sure why it is thought children will attempt suicide if not given treatment. I don't recall masses of children reported doing that before this therapy was available because they were gender confused.

[Cherie]

Doctors don't always know best, there have been some murderous ones that indicate they aren't all saintly and beyond reproach.

I'm not sure why it is thought children will attempt suicide if not given treatment. I don't recall masses of children reported doing that before this therapy was available because they were gender confused.



true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

[Kizzy]

Doctors don't always know best, there have been some murderous ones that indicate they aren't all saintly and beyond reproach.

I'm not sure why it is thought children will attempt suicide if not given treatment. I don't recall masses of children reported doing that before this therapy was available because they were gender confused.

There have been some murderous everyone... teachers, plumbers, social workers, police officers. You can't write off medical opinion and current practice and guidelines because of that :/

Who said there were 'masses' but it happens, if one suicide can be prevented by delaying puberty then for me it's worth it. Should the child then reconsider then they simply come off the medication and enter puberty.

[jaxie]

[/B]


true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

Excellent point Cherie. I wanted to be princess but no one sent me to the palace to meet any princes.

[Kizzy]

[/B]


true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

As if it's assumed that parents walk into a surgery and walk out with this medication, don't you thing there are behavioral and cognitive therapies explored first?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/27/half-of-trans-pupils-in-the-uk-tried-to-take-their-own-lives-survey-finds

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4840520/Transgender-boy-suicide-struggled-gender-identity.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/the-truth-about-transgend_b_8564834.html

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/MHRJ-05-2014-0015

[Jamie89]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4959094/Parents-want-NHS-son-12-puberty-halting-drugs.html

This story popped up in my Google news feed this morning and I wondered what people thought about children under 16, sometimes under 10 being given puberty halting and gender change hormones. On checking out the story I found a report on the same child from 2015 so he/she is already undergoing treatment.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/12-year-old-boy-trans-female-change-mind-years-later-patrick-mitchell-australia-oestrogen-hormones-a7933741.html

I also found this story about a boy who changed his mind. In my view a child is too young to decide to have this life changing therapy and doctors seem to be giving it out like candy. How can you be sure at 9 what sex you really want to be, most children because they are children are to a degree gender neutral without the drives and life creating elements that are part of gender, until the hormones kick in at puberty anyway so how can you know you don't want to be a man until you have any experience of it.

What do others think on this issue?[/B]


true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

I don't think it's a case of 'wanting' it's that they think they already are a male or female trapped in the wrong body.
I don't know what that's like or how these children feel but most transsexuals say that they always knew even as children, so I don't think going through puberty is a factor in that. Transsexualism isn't about sexual desire so why is going through puberty a necessity in being able to make the decision?
I don't know what the right answer is though and I'm not totally comfortable with the idea of gender-changing hormones, but like I say I don't understand the feelings of it as noone who hasn't gone through it can, but like Kizzy said the people who are best to judge that are the doctors/psychologists who have a better understanding of it and analysis of the specific children in question, so I'm inclined to trust their judgement (I don't think that the fact that some doctors have turned out to be murderers etc should mean they shouldn't be trusted full stop).
The rate of suicide among trans people is shocking and I don't think discomfort/inability to truly understand justifies putting these children at risk. It's weighing up the risk that they might change their mind (I'd be interested to know the rate of this) against putting their lives at risk by denying treatment. With regards to the drugs that delay puberty, they aren't actually being given a sex change, and it allows them time to change their mind, and it makes the process of having a sex change if that's what they end up deciding much easier, so maybe that is the most sensible option.

[Jamie89]

Also just to add that I disagree that it causes more confusion in young minds. The confusion already exists in the children that this affects and surely that needs addressing. The previous approach of ignoring it hasn't worked and is one of the reasons for such a high suicide rate in my opinion.. For children who aren't affected I don't think it's realistic that they now will be as a result of this.

[Withano]

Puberty-halting pills sound like an excellent idea, there would be very little damage to those who do change their mind, and very little damage to those who do not

[Withano]

Excellent point Cherie. I wanted to be princess but no one sent me to the palace to meet any princes.

Utterly ridiculous post. You were never a princess trapped in a common persons body. Its tragic that you believe this comparison is good enough to dismiss a drug that will bring comfort to several thousands.

[jaxie]

Thalidomide was also given out by doctors like candy. Prozac given for mental health problems can make people suicidal. It may be years before we know whether this is 'comfort for thousands' or a dreadful thing to do to children.

Remember we are talking about children here, about altering via medication the natural changes of their bodies before they are developed.

If a boy wants to live as a girl, why he can't he do that without being given drugs to mess with his physical development before he is an adult? Why is this even given on the NHS as healthcare?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think half the time the parents need to be looked at more

[Niamh.]

Totally disagree with this, in fact I'd consider it child abuse

[Jamie89]

Thalidomide was also given out by doctors like candy. Prozac given for mental health problems can make people suicidal. It may be years before we know whether this is 'comfort for thousands' or a dreadful thing to do to children.

Remember we are talking about children here, about altering via medication the natural changes of their bodies before they are developed.

If a boy wants to live as a girl, why he can't he do that without being given drugs to mess with his physical development before he is an adult? Why is this even given on the NHS as healthcare?

I think we also need to remember the reasons why they are doing it as well though, the risk of suicide being the greatest. And also to put in perspective that delaying puberty is just that, it isn't causing any permanent alterations but giving them time which surely is a good thing. All medical treatments go against the nature of our bodies but they exist because they have a purpose and a benefit.

[jaxie]

Utterly ridiculous post. You were never a princess trapped in a common persons body. Its tragic that you believe this comparison is good enough to dismiss a drug that will bring comfort to several thousands.

Can I just ask, do you take everything I say literally?

[Withano]

Can I just ask, do you take everything I say literally?

Youre in serious debates and held a serious tone up until that point. What else are you kidding about? Because I think a load of your other points are pretty crap too.

[jaxie]

Youre in serious debates and held a serious tone up until that point. What else are you kidding about? Because I think a load of your other points are pretty crap too.

Well thanks, I think yours rather lovely.

Someone else said they thought it was child abuse, and your response to them?

[Withano]

Agreed. Anyway.

Imagine having a kid, who aged 5, knew they were the opposite sex, and any person as a parent denied them this drug because 'they were a child'... and that kid still wanted to be the opposite sex 10 years later, the parent has undoubtedly ruined their life. There would be so much irreversable damage at that point - and for what? Because they were a child, a cant possibly know their gender?

This drug should be the alternative to the parents who are cautious about the rare possibility of a child changing their mind - it wouldnt stop the process, it would slow the process. To deny a girl to stop turning into a boy because they are a child and might be confused, is disturbing.

I think there are a lot of old fashioned views already in this thread, and theres gonna be more to come, but I'm so happy we're living in a world where this drug has been developed to stop children from effectively being forced into living a lie.

[Niamh.]

Old fashioned views like not wanting to give your 5 year old puberty halting drugs? I'm happy to be old fashioned then :shrug:

[Withano]

Old fashioned views like not wanting to give your 5 year old puberty halting drugs? I'm happy to be old fashioned then :shrug:

There are a lot of 'if's', but yes. I don't think this will be a discussion in a generations time. We're moving past this stage.

I think the idea of a little boy knowing he is a girl, but being forced to turn into a man through puberty will be something the next generation will look on to with confusion, especially now that a drug has been made to temporarily stop puberty from turning said child into a man, but not even necessarily going the other way towards what the child wants.

Its illogical really if you think about it, and is something I'd match with a time well before modern science, medicine and technology.

[Niamh.]

I hope you're wrong and instead people are given proper counselling to help them accept who they are, not given the emperor's new clothes treatment

[thesheriff443]

Had a conversation with my elderly neibour, she is struggling to accept that one of her grand sons who is 10 I think is living as a girl dresses as a girl goes to school and is accepted as a girl, both parents are doctors, one a paediatrician and the other a psychiatrist.

[jaxie]

I hope you're wrong and instead people are given proper counselling to help them accept who they are, not given the emperor's new clothes treatment

:clap1: You know you've heard it all when people think it's ok to give children of 5 and up drugs rather than therapy for gender confusion.

[jaxie]

Had a conversation with my elderly neibour, she is struggling to accept that one of her grand sons who is 10 I think is living as a girl dresses as a girl goes to school and is accepted as a girl, both parents are doctors, one a paediatrician and the other a psychiatrist.

Granny might be the wisest member of the family.

[Withano]

I hope you're wrong and instead people are given proper counselling to help them accept who they are, not given the emperor's new clothes treatment

Is a pair of jeans, a blue bedroom, and all the counselling in the world really going to help a girl who's gowing an adams apple and a deep voice. She would still be a 50 year old woman who was forced into the boy-man puberty cycle because she was denied the drug to slow that down, even though she knew she wanted this as a child. She will still look down on herself with resentment, and that would be her parents fault more than anything, they have the choice now more than ever.

Imagine what Lauren Harries or Kellie Maloney could look like if they had the male puberty cycle slowed down or stopped.. Forcing kids into a gender just seems so outdated to me.

[Niamh.]

:clap1: You know you've heard it all when people think it's ok to give children of 5 and up drugs rather than therapy for gender confusion.I know or that it's an old fashioned notion not to think it's a normal way to handle the situation

[Withano]

:clap1: You know you've heard it all when people think it's ok to give children of 5 and up drugs rather than therapy for gender confusion.

Well I cant imagine the drug would be beneficial for 5 year olds... that wasnt my point. My point was if a 5 year old knows their gender, but was being forced through a different puberty cycle several years later, even though a perfectly suitable drug exists, the parent has ruined that kids life.

[Niamh.]

Is a pair of jeans, a blue bedroom, and all the counselling in the world really going to help a girl who's gowing an adams apple and a deep voice. She would still be a 50 year old woman who was forced into the boy-man puberty cycle because she was denied the drug to slow that down, even though she knew she wanted this as a child. She will still look down on herself with resentment, and that would be her parents fault more than anything, they have the choice now more than ever.

Imagine what Lauren Harries or Kellie Maloney could look like if they had the male puberty cycle slowed down or stopped.. Forcing kids into a gender just seems so outdated to me.A blue bedroom and a pair of jeans? So your idea of what gender is, is all the stereotypes? That's pretty outdated thinking to me

[Withano]

A blue bedroom and a pair of jeans? So your idea of what gender is, is all the stereotypes? That's pretty outdated thinking to me

Ugh no, that wasnt my point either. I was suggesting that these things would not be helpful. That is not what a boy is. Its deeper than that, and counselling isnt going to stop your hormones changing you into something you know you're not.

[jaxie]

Is a pair of jeans, a blue bedroom, and all the counselling in the world really going to help a girl who's gowing an adams apple and a deep voice. She would still be a 50 year old woman who was forced into the boy-man puberty cycle because she was denied the drug to slow that down, even though she knew she wanted this as a child. She will still look down on herself with resentment, and that would be her parents fault more than anything, they have the choice now more than ever.

Imagine what Lauren Harries or Kellie Maloney could look like if they had the male puberty cycle slowed down or stopped.. Forcing kids into a gender just seems so outdated to me.

Why do Lauren Harries or Kellie Maloney's appearances have any bearing on this discussion at all?

Is gender reassignment a beauty contest now? People come in all shapes and sizes, some have physical beauty some don't. What are you saying here?

Are you also saying that parent are to blame if they don't give in to everything a child demands? What if someone's child doesn't like the look of ears and wants them removed at 7?

[Withano]

Why do Lauren Harries or Kellie Maloney's appearances have any bearing on this discussion at all?

Is gender reassignment a beauty contest now? People come in all shapes and sizes, some have physical beauty some don't. What are you saying here?

I'm saying, and I've heard Lauren Harries say this too in some documentary I watched about 10/15 years ago, that some aspects of puberty is irreversible. Lauren may be legally, and technically a woman, but when she still went through the male puberty cycle, she still became something she was not, she can't get rid of her adams apple etc. Girls growing up in boys bodies now have the chance to stop processes like this, forcing them into it simply because they are a child and might be confused is gross.

[Withano]

Are you also saying that parent are to blame if they don't give in to everything a child demands? What if someone's child doesn't like the look of ears and wants them removed at 7?

They are not an earless person in a person-with-ears body. Why do you keep making ****e comparisons, do you even understand the topic?! This is the same as your princess metaphor.

[jaxie]

I'm saying, and I've heard Lauren Harries say this too in some documentary I watched about 10/15 years ago, that some aspects of puberty is irreversible. Lauren may be legally, and technically a woman, but when she still went through the male puberty cycle, she still became something she was not, she can't get rid of her adams apple etc. Girls growing up in boys bodies now have the chance to stop processes like this, forcing them into it simply because they are a child and might be confused is gross.

She also can't grow a womb and ovaries. Whether she has medication, surgery or not.

[Withano]

She also can't grow a womb and ovaries. Whether she has medication, surgery or not.

... so she should still be a boy to this point... so she should shut her whining and be happy.. no ovaries = adams apple, its one or the other, thats the rule...

I dont get your point. Seems more transphobic than anything.

[jaxie]

... so she should still be a boy to this point... so she should shut her whining and be happy.. no ovaries = adams apple, its one or the other, thats the rule...

I dont get your point. Seems more transphobic than anything.

First paragraph, you said all that not me.

And here we go with the labels and accusations. I don't agree with you therefore I must be some sort of phobic. Grow up.

[Vicky.]

Wrong wrong wrong. Even sop called 'harmless' puberty blockers...which are actually chemotherapy drugs.

One day we will look back on this as a child abuse scandal of massive proportions. At the moment though, too many are willing to bury their heads in the sand about it all. So many kids will be harmed by this. Even now there are a fair few kids who want to reverse the damage done to them. Its just ****ing wring and I don't understand how anyone can ever agree with it. Some idiot parents are asking for referrals for their 3 year olds to 'gender clinics' ffs. And transactivists are fighting for 'less gatekeeping'?! Really?!

Like 80% of kids with gender confusion effectively grow out of it, and when they are older most of these simply are gay adults. 'Transing kids' is nothing more than modern day eugenics. How there seems to be widespread support for this I don't know. Let them wear what they like, play with what they like and so on. Using chemo drugs to delay puberty is just bat****. Also, 'reversible' is only technically...as 100% of kids put on blockers move onto cross sex hormones, probably as halting puberty also halts brain development so they get stuck in the same mindset.

I agree with niamh. Its child abuse. On a huge scale. I don't doubt the parents are trying to do whats best for the kids (especially after having distorted suicide stats thrown at them by the likes of 'mermaids' who are meant to HELP families like this) but its all just so ****ing wrong.

[Vicky.]

I also think come 10-20years time, we will look back on this 'treatment regime' the same way we look back at lobotomies. But the damage will have already been done by then. The side effects of Lupron are horrendous, even when taken short term.

[Niamh.]

... so she should still be a boy to this point... so she should shut her whining and be happy.. no ovaries = adams apple, its one or the other, thats the rule...

I dont get your point. Seems more transphobic than anything.Can you try to discus this without insulting people please?

[Withano]

First paragraph, you said all that not me.

And here we go with the labels and accusations. I don't agree with you therefore I must be some sort of phobic. Grow up.

First paragraph? You think Lauren Harries should still be a man to this point? And I'm not allowed to call that transphobia? Can reiterate, what do you mean by first paragraph?

[Withano]

She also can't grow a womb and ovaries. Whether she has medication, surgery or not.

Can you try to discus this without insulting people please?

Sorry Niamh, I don't understand the point she was making here. If there is not a point, it is transphobia. That is the definition of transphobia. I am not insulting her. That is the correct adjective (if there was not a point to that post).

[jaxie]

I also think come 10-20years time, we will look back on this 'treatment regime' the same way we look back at lobotomies. But the damage will have already been done by then. The side effects of Lupron are horrendous, even when taken short term.

:clap1:

I agree 100% but apparently only my views and comments are under question so I'm off for a bit!

To clarify: Physical aspects of starting out as one sex were being promoted as a reason to give drugs to children. I was pointing out these aren't the only physical issues that can't be changed.

[Vicky.]

They are not an earless person in a person-with-ears body. Why do you keep making ****e comparisons, do you even understand the topic?! This is the same as your princess metaphor.

Its not really a crap metaphor though, but for sake of the conversation, I will bite here. What is the difference between someone who is transgender and transabled? Or in the case of that Rachel Dolezqal person, trans-racial? Really?

Transabled people are distressed by what they consider to be limbs that do not belong to them, they are disabled people trapped in able bodies. They have surgeries (if they can find doctors willing to do them) to correct this. In what way is this different to considering yourself a different sex than you are and having surgeries to 'fix' this?

My view on pretty much the whole topic is that adults should do whatever they feel will help them in their daily lives tbh (though studies show that 'transition' is not a cure as some think, as mental health a few years after the original honeymoon period actually goes downhill) but kids should be left well alone. We shouldn't be using kids in experimental treatments. There are enough 'detransitioners' to question this 'surgery or die' rhetoric that we are fed. Also the likes of mermaids should be ****ing ashamed for peddling this '50% of transkids kill themselves' nonsense. Scaring parents into medicating their children for life. When in MOST cases, the kid if just left to go through puberty would be perfectly happy as an adult, and in most cases simply gay. Yes, a handful of these kids will turn out to actually be transsexual when they are older, but I don't get why its seen as a good thing to treat ALL questioning kids with these powerful and dangerous drugs, on the offchance that they are one of the 20% (or less) who continue to question as adults.

[Withano]

Its not really a crap metaphor though, but for sake of the conversation, I will bite here. What is the difference between someone who is transgender and transabled? Or in the case of that Rachel Dolezqal person, trans-racial? Really?


Difference is, up to this date, only one of those things can be scientifically proven.... Theres also no evidence to being an earless person in a person with ears body either. So yeah crap lol. Unless of course I'm wrong and it can be scientifically proven that you can be an earless person, I didnt actually Google.

[Vicky.]

I think we also need to remember the reasons why they are doing it as well though, the risk of suicide being the greatest. And also to put in perspective that delaying puberty is just that, it isn't causing any permanent alterations but giving them time which surely is a good thing. All medical treatments go against the nature of our bodies but they exist because they have a purpose and a benefit.

In theory maybe, but in practice it doesn't happen like that.

This is the only study done on this to date, so all we can really go on

http://dailysignal.com/2017/07/03/im-pediatrician-transgender-ideology-infiltrated-field-produced-large-scale-child-abuse/

Most, if not all, children on puberty blockers go on to take cross-sex hormones. The only study to date to have followed pre-pubertal children who were socially affirmed and placed on blockers at a young age found that 100 percent of them claimed a transgender identity and chose cross-sex hormones.

This suggests that the medical protocol itself may lead children to identify as transgender.

There is an obvious self-fulfilling effect in helping children impersonate the opposite sex both biologically and socially. This is far from benign, since taking puberty blockers at age 12 or younger, followed by cross-sex hormones, sterilizes a child.

The study, if you fancy reading it

http://www.pinktherapy.com/portals/0/CourseResources/de_Vries_Puberty_Suppression_in_Adolescents_with_G D.pdf

[Vicky.]

Difference is, up to this date, only one of those things can be scientifically proven.... Theres also no evidence to being an earless person in a person with ears body either. So yeah crap lol. Unless of course I'm wrong and it can be scientifically proven that you can be an earless person, I didnt actually Google.

What do you mean by this? :suspect: That males trapped in female bodies and vice versa can actually be scientifically proven?

Earless people, do exist apparently. I didn't know that either :laugh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenesis

[Withano]

What do you mean by this? :suspect: That males trapped in female bodies and vice versa can actually be scientifically proven?

Earless people, do exist apparently. I didn't know that either :laugh:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agenesis

Yes, there are several difference in the male and female brain. Off the top of my head, males have 7x more grey matter than females, and females have 10x more white matter than males, this leads to several behavioural differences and can be seen in frmi scanners. MTF brains very closely resemble a female brain and vice versa.
I'm not sure if transabled brains and transracial brains are currently being examined in similar ways, but I do look for articles on the topic regularly, it does interest me... to my knowledge, currently, theres no scientific foundation to people identifying this way being based on anything substantial.. yet.. (this might be controversial of me, but i dont think that evidence will ever exist).

Eta. Same goes for earless people trapped in ear-ful bodies... probably

[Vicky.]

Yes, there are several difference in the male and female brain. Off the top of my head, males have 7x more grey matter than females, and females have 10x more white matter than females, this leads to several behavioural differences and can be seen in frmi scanners. MTF brains very closely resemble a female brain and vice versa.
I'm not sure if transabled brains and transracial brains are currently being examined in similar ways, but I do look for articles on the topic regularly, it does interest me... to my knowledge, currently, theres no scientific foundation to people identifying this way being based on anything substantial.. yet.. (this might be controversial of me, but i dont think that evidence will ever exist).

Eta. Same goes for earless people trapped in ear-ful bodies.

There are differences in average female and male brains. There is no such thing as a male or female brain though, and most people cross over. Hell, black cab drivers have 'different' brains to the rest of the population simply because of their jobs. Brains are plastic, and there have never been any studies to actually prove this 'female brain in a male body' or anything. Ever. And I am fairly sure with the amount of cash thrown at this, if there was any proof, it would be shouted from the rooftops.

Transabled people have Body integrity identity disorder...which does show on brain scans. As...brains are plastic. So lived experiences will often show up. If a person convinces themselves a limb does not belong to them, the brain will adapt.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16840-desire-to-amputate-healthy-limbs-shows-up-in-brain-scans/

Trans is IMO, an extension of BIID. And similar to anorexia too (which also shows up in brain scans)


None of this has anything to do with the ethics of giving chemo drugs to children who don't need them though really. Which is the problem here. Adults can do whatever the hell they want to do to modify themselves, up to them.

[Withano]

There are differences in average female and male brains. There is no such thing as a male or female brain though, and most people cross over. Hell, black cab drivers have 'different' brains to the rest of the population simply because of their jobs. Brains are plastic, and there have never beern any studies to prove this 'female brain in a male body' or anything. Ever. And I am fairly sure with the amount of cash thrown at this, if there was any proof, it would be shouted from the rooftops.

Transabled people have Body integrity identity disorder...which does show on brain scans. As...brains are plastic. So lived experiences will often show up. If a person convinces themselves a limb does not belong to them, the brain will adapt.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16840-desire-to-amputate-healthy-limbs-shows-up-in-brain-scans/

Trans is IMO, an extension of BIID. And similar to anorexia too (which also shows up in brain scans)

I agree with no 'entirely male brain' but when a boy has a typical female brain, and when that can be seen on scanners, and when a parent would deny the child a drug that would stop that female turning into an adult male, its a bit.... wrong? Cruel? Dumb? Outdated? Especially if the child, or teen can verbally express that they know their gender, and this can be backed up.

I'll give your transabled link a read a little later on.. the main theory about that transracial woman is her link to her traumatic childhood.. details are hazy.. but I think her Uncle or father used to make her eat her own vomit, and researchers concluded that she may have wanted to identify as a race that were also poorly treated for that reason. I suppose it could be similar for transabled people? I dont think theres enough history on either topic for anyone to make conclusions.. unlike transgender, thats getting pretty solid now..

[Tom4784]

I think it's a good idea for when cases have been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt which they probably are for the most part since, like with all gender reassignment treatments, medical professionals will want to ensure that it's something the patient truly wants and is prepared for before they go ahead with it.

Doctors don't always know best, there have been some murderous ones that indicate they aren't all saintly and beyond reproach.

I'm not sure why it is thought children will attempt suicide if not given treatment. I don't recall masses of children reported doing that before this therapy was available because they were gender confused.

What a silly line of reasoning to discount medical advice on, like Kizzy said, you could say that to ignore pretty much every professional opinion of any field.

[Vicky.]

I agree with no 'entirely male brain' but when a boy has a typical female brain, and when that can be seen on scanners, and when a parent would deny the child a drug that would stop that female turning into an adult male, its a bit.... wrong? Cruel? Dumb? Outdated? Especially if the child, or teen can verbally express that they know their gender, and this can be backed up.

I'll give your transabled link a read a little later on.. the main theory about that transracial woman is her link to her traumatic childhood.. details are hazy.. but I think her Uncle or father used to make her eat her own vomit, and researchers concluded that she may have wanted to identify as a race that were also poorly treated for that reason. I suppose it could be similar for transabled people? I dont think theres enough history on either topic for anyone to make conclusions.. unlike transgender, thats getting pretty solid now..

Well interestingly enough, there are strong links between transsexual people and autism too. And a LOT of trans people (especially FtM) have been sexually assaulted or raped aswell.

Its all quite fascinating, and I didn't really know anything about any of it until a year or so ago. I just think sticking kids on puberty blockers is really wrong, especially when most kids will grow out of it. When if they are put on blockers, they do NOT grow out of it. And that most who DO grow out of it are just gay as adults. So I do see it as modern day euginics and am quite puzzled how there seems to be such widespread support for it :S Yes it will be stressful for a kids to go through 'the wrong' puberty if it does turn out they were trans all along. It is equally stressful for a kid to reach adulthood and realise that they were just gay all along and now be stuck with a body that mimics the opposite sex and lifelong medical issues

There was a doctor done not long ago for prescribing hormones and such over the internet ffs. There is also an organisation called mermaids, who the NHS send parents of gender questioning kids to. This organisation pressures parents into transitioning their kids by telling them that nearly all trans kids try to kill themselves and so on, and encourage parents to buy offlabel drugs for when the Tavistock is 'taking too long' to treat. Its all a huge ****storm that will come to a head soon.

[Vicky.]

I think it's a good idea for when cases have been verified beyond a shadow of a doubt which they probably are for the most part since, like with all gender reassignment treatments, medical professionals will want to ensure that it's something the patient truly wants and is prepared for before they go ahead with it.



Would you have know what was best for you at 11? I know I wouldn't have. Infact if I was a kid today I would probably be set off on the route to blockers as I was 'stereotypically' a boy, HATED every second of puberty, did not want to be as woman...also was sure I would never want kids (something kids are unlikely to consider as no kid really wants kids) and I swear if someone had said to me 'look,. you can avoid all of this' I would have taken it with both hands without thinking of the consequences.

[Brillopad]

Would you have know what was best for you at 11? I know I wouldn't have. Infact if I was a kid today I would probably be set off on the route to blockers as I was 'stereotypically' a boy, HATED every second of puberty, did not want to be as woman...also was sure I would never want kids (something kids are unlikely to consider as no kid really wants kids) and I swear if someone had said to me 'look,. you can avoid all of this' I would have taken it with both hands without thinking of the consequences.

Agreed. I do not believe for a second that a ten year old fully knows or understands something like that. Doctors could end up on charges of abuse and with Hugh litigation claims if and when the consequences for the child in the future are not as expected.

[Withano]

equally stressful for a kid to reach adulthood and realise that they were just gay all along and now be stuck with a body that mimics the opposite sex and lifelong medical issues



I think this is the reason for our difference in opinion maybe?
I presume a blocker would stop puberty from going either way, and puberty would commence once more when the blocker isn't being taken. A gay man who took the pill for a day, a week, or a year would can stop taking the pill and resume his male puberty cycle, whereas a female in a mans body who is confident after the 5(?) years they have to be sure of their gender * can start the mtf process without an adams apple or a deep voice.

* I think thats the rule, your, I, or any teen who has an epiphany today can't change our sex any time soon, theres a lengthy procedure.. 5 years sounds familiar.

I would also be against a drug that starts the transistion period from an early age.. i dont think that is what this is.

[Vicky.]

I think this is the reason for our difference in opinion maybe?
I presume a blocker would stop puberty from going either way, and puberty would commence once more when the blocker isn't being taken. A gay man who took the pill for a day, a week, or a year would can stop taking the pill and resume his male puberty cycle, whereas a female in a mans body who is confident after the 5(?) years they have to be sure of their gender * can start the mtf process without an adams apple or a deep voice.

* I think thats the rule, your, I, or any teen who has an epiphany today can't change our sex any time soon, theres a lengthy procedure.. 5 years sounds familiar.
Yes, in theory. However all (or nearly all) children who are on blockers go onto cross sex hormones. Now, I don't know why this is but can take a guess, huge brain changes occur in puberty. Blocking these changes will effectively keep you in the mindset that you were when puberty was supposed to occur. So you are not going to have a 'change of heart' as your brain will not have the maturity that it needs to make such a decision.

Where when just left alone to develop at their own rate, 80% (or more, depending on the study) of these children who were 'gender questioning' just grow out of it during/after puberty.

So yeah, in theory it sounds a decent idea, in practice most certainly not.

The only study done into this proves that blockers whilst technically reversible, are not in practice. Any further thought of studies have been shouted down by transactivists. As has research into 'detransitioners'. You have to wonder why this is...surely more understanding is best for everyone, right?

[Marsh.]

Absolutely sick and disgusting.

[Withano]

Yes, in theory. However all (or nearly all) children who are on blockers go onto cross sex hormones. Now, I don't know why this is but can take a guess, huge brain changes occur in puberty. Blocking these changes will effectively keep you in the mindset that you were when puberty was supposed to occur. So you are not going to have a 'change of heart' as your brain will not have the maturity that it needs to make such a decision.

Where when just left alone to develop at their own rate, 80% (or more, depending on the study) of these children who were 'gender questioning' just grow out of it during/after puberty.

So yeah, in theory it sounds a decent idea, in practice most certainly not.

I suppose that could begin to explain why some researchers believe there are like 70+ genders. I guess gender-questioning could mean knowing that you're not male, assuming you must be female, but then realising you're one of the other 70 odd genders that I don't fully understand. Like bi-gender or agender etc.
But I think we're on the right track with this drug. The cross hormones might not be causal, they could have easily already been there. The drug could also be perfected in the future.. The more cases will just expand our knowledge on the area, and perhaps in 50 years times this sorta thing could be evaluated in a more effective way.
Terminating the use of a drug that can clearly be incredible useful isn't the answer.

[Vicky.]

I suppose that could begin to explain why some researchers believe there are like 70+ genders. I guess gender-questioning could mean knowing that you're not male, assuming you must be female, but then realising you're one of the other 70 odd genders that I don't fully understand. Like bi-gender or agender etc.
But I think we're on the right track with this drug. The cross hormones might not be causal, they could have easily already been there. The drug could also be perfected in the future.. The more cases will just expand our knowledge on the area, and perhaps in 50 years times this sorta thing could be evaluated in a more effective way.
Terminating the use of a drug that can clearly be incredible useful isn't the answer.
But in the meantime, 80% of children put onto the drug, don't need to be on it? So effectively we are treating (and medicalising for life) 4 out of every 5 people put on it, when they don't need to be treat that way! Thats mental, surely...
https://www.nwhn.org/lupron-what-does-it-do-to-womens-health/

Lupron causes significant safety concerns aswell...if it really worth it, so that 1/5 of the people who take it can look a little more feminine/masculine as an adult?!

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

[Vicky.]

As for genders, gender is a social construct. I have no gender, so technically am 'a-gender' or 'gender-queer'. I only discovered this when looking into this fairly recently. I believe 'gender' is just personality, hence there being 2361278456238954234 of them. Sex and gender are not the same.

[Withano]

But in the meantime, 80% of children put onto the drug, don't need to be on it? So effectively we are treating (and medicalising for life) 4 out of every 5 people put on it, when they don't need to be treat that way! Thats mental, surely...
https://www.nwhn.org/lupron-what-does-it-do-to-womens-health/

Lupron causes significant safety concerns aswell...if it really worth it, so that 1/5 of the people who take it can look a little more feminine/masculine as an adult?!

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

I guess at this point it would just be a game of swap the link..for every article there is on the dangers of the drug, there's an article that claims that all effects are completely reversible.

[Vicky.]

I guess at this point it would just be a game of swap the link..for every article there is on the dangers of the drug, there's an article that claims that all effects are completely reversible.

It is a powerful chemotherapy drug. Of course it is not harmless..

The only study done into it shows that they are not reversible in practice...I have read links that say they are reversible, oddly enough there has not been a study done on any of them, its just opinion. And yes, in theory they would be reversible...but noone who takes them changes their minds..

[Cherie]

As if it's assumed that parents walk into a surgery and walk out with this medication, don't you thing there are behavioral and cognitive therapies explored first?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/jun/27/half-of-trans-pupils-in-the-uk-tried-to-take-their-own-lives-survey-finds

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4840520/Transgender-boy-suicide-struggled-gender-identity.html

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/brynn-tannehill/the-truth-about-transgend_b_8564834.html

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/doi/abs/10.1108/MHRJ-05-2014-0015


and you are assuming that there is endless funding for behavioural and congnitive therapies, try asking the parent of a child with behavioural difficulties or congnitive delay in this day and age how difficult it is to get assessed never mind a diagnosis or help in mainstream school

[Cherie]

I hope you're wrong and instead people are given proper counselling to help them accept who they are, not given the emperor's new clothes treatment

post of the thread, look at all the kids who were given the wonder drug Ritalin to control their behaviour instead exploring other ways of dealing with ADHD and other behavioural issues

[Oliver_W]

As others have said, young kids who think they're trans most often grow of it by the time they hit puberty. While the blockers themselves don't cause sterilisation, they lead to transition hormones, which mean the child will never have been fertile in the first place.

Take Jazz Jennings. She's an MtF who transitioned young. Thanks to blockers and hormones, her penis never developed, and it can't be used in a sex "change" operation, because there's not enough material there.

[Vicky.]

As others have said, young kids who think they're trans most often grow of it by the time they hit puberty. While the blockers themselves don't cause sterilisation, they lead to transition hormones, which mean the child will never have been fertile in the first place.

Take Jazz Jennings. She's an MtF who transitioned young. Thanks to blockers and hormones, her penis never developed, and it can't be used in a sex "change" operation, because there's not enough material there.

Yes, Jazz is an exceptionally sad case. And yes, this is another issue with blockers. If the patient ever wants to go for full SRS in the future, the surgeons have nothing to work with. So whilst Jazz may look more feminine, the sex dysphoria will be even more horrendous as she can never have the surgery that she thinks would help her. Due to having the penis of a prepubescent child and not enough 'material' to work with. All so sad, and again, I don't see why there is so much support for it, at all. So many reasons to be against...

I expect Jazz will have huge health issue in the future anyway, due to blockers and cross sex hormones.

[Oliver_W]

There have been no studies on the long term effects of blockers+SRS, so I guess now she's started the ball (heehee) rolling, she may as well be the weathervane.

[Northern Monkey]

[/B]


true, I think we are causing more confusion in young minds by trying to cover every possibility instead of being practical, if a child said they wanted to be an astronaut at 8 would we put them into space ..

Totally 100%.Said it better than i was thinking.

Alot of kids may find that when they hit puberty these thoughts go.Atleast give them a chance to develop properly into adults and then they can decide for themselves.
Doctors shouldn’t be entertaining the idea of messing with kids hormones like this.

[Oliver_W]

Agreed. I do not believe for a second that a ten year old fully knows or understands something like that. Doctors could end up on charges of abuse and with Hugh litigation claims if and when the consequences for the child in the future are not as expected.

Hugh litigation?
http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/blackaddercourtroom.jpg

[Northern Monkey]

Wrong wrong wrong. Even sop called 'harmless' puberty blockers...which are actually chemotherapy drugs.

One day we will look back on this as a child abuse scandal of massive proportions. At the moment though, too many are willing to bury their heads in the sand about it all. So many kids will be harmed by this. Even now there are a fair few kids who want to reverse the damage done to them. Its just ****ing wring and I don't understand how anyone can ever agree with it. Some idiot parents are asking for referrals for their 3 year olds to 'gender clinics' ffs. And transactivists are fighting for 'less gatekeeping'?! Really?!

Like 80% of kids with gender confusion effectively grow out of it, and when they are older most of these simply are gay adults. 'Transing kids' is nothing more than modern day eugenics. How there seems to be widespread support for this I don't know. Let them wear what they like, play with what they like and so on. Using chemo drugs to delay puberty is just bat****. Also, 'reversible' is only technically...as 100% of kids put on blockers move onto cross sex hormones, probably as halting puberty also halts brain development so they get stuck in the same mindset.

I agree with niamh. Its child abuse. On a huge scale. I don't doubt the parents are trying to do whats best for the kids (especially after having distorted suicide stats thrown at them by the likes of 'mermaids' who are meant to HELP families like this) but its all just so ****ing wrong.
There aren’t enough :clap1: ‘s for this

[Northern Monkey]

Thalidomide was also given out by doctors like candy. Prozac given for mental health problems can make people suicidal. It may be years before we know whether this is 'comfort for thousands' or a dreadful thing to do to children.

Remember we are talking about children here, about altering via medication the natural changes of their bodies before they are developed.

If a boy wants to live as a girl, why he can't he do that without being given drugs to mess with his physical development before he is an adult? Why is this even given on the NHS as healthcare?

Exactly

[Niamh.]

post of the thread, look at all the kids who were given the wonder drug Ritalin to control their behaviour instead exploring other ways of dealing with ADHD and other behavioural issues

Yeah, I never had a child with ADHD but I'm sure it can't be healthy to be drugging a child up like that. I've read changing diets and things like that can help alot with kids with ADHD but that's alot more effort than giving them a pill