TERF wars

[Oliver_W]

Three suspects are being sought by police after a woman was punched and kicked during a brawl between transgender activists and radical feminists. (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/26/woman-punched-in-brawl-between-transgender-activists-and-radical-feminists?CMP=share_btn_tw)

The 60-year-old victim was punched in the face, knocked to the ground and kicked after one of the suspects tried to grab her camera as she was filming at a gender recognition talk, the Metropolitan police said.

Police said the first suspect is a man described as white, around 6ft and with brown hair in a pony tail.
TERF stands for "Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist", and they're a group of feminists who see traps as eeeviiil man who want to break into their toilets to rape them, pretty much. But then some transwomen decide it's okay to "Punch a TERF (https://anthrofeminist.blog/2017/09/15/punch-a-terf-rhetoric-encourages-violence-against-women/)", and violence is obviously worse than words.

Do women have a right to say that traps can't use their bathroom? Should they be allowed in to do their business, as long as they don't punch women?

[Niamh.]

I can understand why women are getting annoyed, look at this story for example :

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/10/19/transgender-barred-from-womens-aussie-rules-football-draft-due-to-unreasonable-physical-advantage/

[Oliver_W]

I can understand why women are getting annoyed, look at this story for example :

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/10/19/transgender-barred-from-womens-aussie-rules-football-draft-due-to-unreasonable-physical-advantage/

Not to mention that boxer Fallon Fox.

Speaking of Australian's womens' sports, this gave me a chuckle:
Australia's national women's soccer team the Matildas lose 7-0 to an under FIFTEENS boys' side (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3609949/Matildas-lose-7-0-Newcastle-Jets-15s-Rio-Olympics-warm-up.html)

[Niamh.]

Not to mention that boxer Fallon Fox.

Speaking of Australian's womens' sports, this gave me a chuckle:
Australia's national women's soccer team the Matildas lose 7-0 to an under FIFTEENS boys' side (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3609949/Matildas-lose-7-0-Newcastle-Jets-15s-Rio-Olympics-warm-up.html)I'm sure it did

[Oliver_W]

I'm sure it did

Love you too <3

[Vicky.]

I am a 'TERF' apparently. Its just another insult used against women so nowt new there. Its screamed at anyone who dares think any deeper into the whole 'transwomen are women' argument. Oddly enough, there is no slur for males who believe in biology, its entirely used against females who dare to have boundaries.

I think if we have sex segregated areas of life, then obviously it makes sense to...segregate them by sex. Not by a feeling in someones head.

Surprised its taken so long for this story to be posted. I was actually speaking to the woman who was attacked by a bunch of men weeks ago.

[Vicky.]

'TERF' is basically used to just shut down people who dare question any aspect of the transactivists narrative. Not many people know that we currently have male rapists in female prisons, for example. And saying this gets you shouted down and labelled phobic. Believing in biology full stop, or that there are differences between the sexes is transphobic. Its all gone ****ing mental and honestly, a lot of transsexual people are 'gender critical' also. Seems to be only the obvious misogynistic dudes who are in favour of self-ID (currently Maria Miller is trying to pass this through parliament...) and 'female penises' and who try to shame lesbians into ****ing them as its transphobic to not sleep with a male bodied person who 'identifies' as a woman you know. Funny that.

[user104658]

I can understand why women are getting annoyed, look at this story for example :

http://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/10/19/transgender-barred-from-womens-aussie-rules-football-draft-due-to-unreasonable-physical-advantage/

The comments section on that article tho...

[DemolitionRed]

The comments section on that article tho...

I had to go back and look at the comments. Lets hope their sons and daughters don't become transgenders... on the other hand :laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

I am a 'TERF' apparently. Its just another insult used against women so nowt new there. Its screamed at anyone who dares think any deeper into the whole 'transwomen are women' argument. Oddly enough, there is no slur for males who believe in biology, its entirely used against females who dare to have boundaries.

I think if we have sex segregated areas of life, then obviously it makes sense to...segregate them by sex. Not by a feeling in someones head.

Surprised its taken so long for this story to be posted. I was actually speaking to the woman who was attacked by a bunch of men weeks ago.

Do you still see post-op transgender women as men?

[Vicky.]

Do you still see post-op transgender women as men?

They will always be male, yes.

I don't believe anyone can ever chan ge sex and science certainly does not support that

However, I have a lot more sympathy for someone who is transsexual and actually suffers sex dysphoria than the 'new brand' of trans people...

Personally I would have no issue with someone post-op in female changing rooms and stuff.. But, then you have the issue of saying people are only 'welcome' if they go through dangerous surgeries.

Prisons though...I really do not know. I have thought about this a lot, especially since finding out that we do currently have violent male rapists in with the female population, and generally, the only 'fair/safe' way of doing it (I think I have said this on another thread too before) is to have trans prisoners on their own wing. As its unsafe to put males with females (else, why segregate by sex in the first place?) but its also dangerous for the trans prisoners being in with other males. Having said that, gay men are also fairly at risk in prison..maybe they should also have their own wing :S


Honestly, I don't see why there is all the push for obvious male people to be in female areas at all. I think the only people who will benefit from this are voyeurs and perverts as 'genuine transsexuals' have been using spaces of their preferred sex for years already and most women would not have an issue with a transwoman in their loos or whatever. An obvious male though...is a problem and I think its really wrong to call those who say this, bigots. Or to punch them.

[smudgie]

Live and let live I say.
But perhaps for safety sake then if you still have a willy, use the gents loo or go to a male prison, but once you lose the tackle then be classed as female.:shrug:
I dont have a clue when you are actually legally classed as having changed sex.
If anybody I know or know about wants to be called he or she then I can't see a problem with it.

[Withano]

Oddly enough, there is no slur for males who believe in biology, its entirely used against females who dare to have boundaries.
.

Not to get all truth-y, but surely thats because a man hasn't made a radical anti-f2m meninist society yet.

[Vicky.]

Not to get all truth-y, but surely thats because a man hasn't made a radical anti-f2m meninist society yet.

There is no 'society' though. TERF is just used to shout down any woman who is uncomfortable with sharing sex segregated areas with men. When men say they believe biological sex is an actual thing and that it matters in certain areas of life, they do not get abuse and rape threats. But women daring to say that? Well...

[Withano]

There is no 'society' though. TERF is just used to shout down any woman who is uncomfortable with sharing sex segregated areas with men. When men say they believe biological sex is an actual thing and that it matters in certain areas of life, they do not get abuse and rape threats. But women daring to say that? Well...

I've never heard the term before, but it does sound like a squad of feminists who hang out considering they were in a brawl together?

[Vicky.]

I've never heard the term before, but it does sound like a squad of feminists who hang out considering they were in a brawl together?
LOL no its not that. Its not a group. TERF is what transactivists call them (whilst threatening violence and that) and it literally these days means any woman who believes biological sex is a real thing and that in some areas of life, it does actually matter :laugh:

Edit. Sites a bit outdated now...but https://terfisaslur.com/ should give you an idea of quite how 'terf' is used

[Withano]

LOL no its not that. Its not a group. TERF is what transactivists call them (whilst threatening violence and that) and it literally these days means any woman who believes biological sex is a real thing and that in some areas of life, it does actually matter :laugh:

Edit. Sites a bit outdated now...but https://terfisaslur.com/ should give you an idea of quite how 'terf' is used

Ohhh, got it.

I'd need to know more about the story I guess... how did the transactivits determine they were 'terfs' would be a big decider on how I feel about the people on both sides of the story

Obviously I don't condone the violence, but just curious as to whether the 'terfs' were completely innocent victims.

[Vicky.]

Ohhh, got it.

I'd need to know more about the story I guess... how did the transactivits determine they were 'terfs' would be a big decider on how I feel about the people on both sides of the story

The women were meeting to discuss upcoming changes to the law which would basically mean that anyone can 'self-ID'.

Transactivists shut the venue down to start with by threatening them. So venue was rebooked and kept quiet. Women were meeting at speakers corner to go onto the venue, so that new venue could not be threatened. Transactivists planned violence against the women to start with..then turned up to do it

Its all a bit much to write down as I don't quite know how much you know about how things are at the min with this whole trans thing :laugh:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sx9pyvI-V7M

Above video explains it probably better than I can (also has video of the attack). Uploader is a lesbian woman who was thrown out of her LGBT group at uni for saying she would not sleep with a transwoman (male person...er...lesbian?!). Which is sadly a 'common' view now...that sex does not actually exist, seeing sex is transphobic, ergo all sexualities are actually transphobic. But only lesbians get it in the neck...

She has loads of other videos on the subject too and she highlights quite how far down the rabbit hole this is now D:

[Vicky.]

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/09/15/timeline-of-trans-activists-beating-a-woman-in-hyde-park/

Full timeline actually.

[Withano]

https://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2017/09/15/timeline-of-trans-activists-beating-a-woman-in-hyde-park/

Full timeline actually.

Nobody comes off well in that video - sure, neither are reflective of their communities, but I don't care for any of the individuals in this story now! The "No to male violence" chant was kinda infuriating, even if you disagree with a lifestyle, theres no need to be that much of a **** about it! And then the actual violence was on a par, or worse. All vile imo.

I'll read through the article later on and see if it changes my mind perhaps.

[Vicky.]

It won't change your mind. If you think shouting no to male violence is 'on par' (OR worse) with 3 blokes attacking a 60 year old female :laugh:

The woman in red was kinda annoying me when I first watched it though.

[Withano]

It won't change your mind. If you think shouting no to male violence is 'on par' (OR worse) with 3 blokes attacking a 60 year old female :laugh:

The woman in red was kinda annoying me when I first watched it though.

Yeh that was my next question lol. What do they mean by men and women. Are they being ***** or was a cisgendered male involved? And no it's defo not worse to chant the abuse, I didn't say that it was.

[Vicky.]

The guy with the ponytail (who threatened the ally) identifies as a dude. I assume anyway given he is the only one the police are willing to name as 'a man'. The other 2, don't know. Look very much like any other bloke but these days that means nothing does it :laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

I don't condone anything in the video. I don't condone the women holding that poster in that transgenders face and I certainly don't condone violence but then this crowd was but a small handful of people and isn't reflective of society as a whole, including transgender men and women amongst us.

I've spent a portion of my life in France where, although male and female public toilets have little fem and masculine signs on the door, nobody takes much notice. A woman doesn't bat an eyelid if there's a man using the female loos and vice-versa. In the UK its very different but for me personally, it doesn't bother me.

If a trans woman can't use a female toilet, even though she looks fully female, where is she to go? and if she can't use a female toilet, does that mean female to males trans can't use male toilets?

The rapist in the prison thing is a concern; whatever were they thinking. Perhaps we do need to have transgender facilities in prison. Putting a female to male transgender in a male prison would be foolish and putting a sex offending male in a female prison is just stupid, but in the most part, transgender prison segregation would be for the transgenders safety.

The problem isn't transgender in my opinion. When I worked in the clubbing world in London, we often used to end up at a place called Stunners. When everything was packed away at 5am in the morning, we'd stop off at Alice's cafe (attached to Stunners) in Cable street to get a Bacon sandwich. This place was always buzzing with very dolled up transvestites who dressed up to the nines on a Saturday night but mostly dressed as blokes and did blokey jobs through the week. Many were married and used this promiscuous place as a secret pass time. Whilst I have nothing against a persons kink (providing its consensual and legal), I don't for a minute think 'shehe's' should have the same privileges transgenders have. Transgenderism isn't a kink, its a chosen lifestyle and something we should look at with the seriousness it deserves. The problem is, there are a lot of 'shehe' hobbyists and when we are using public female facilities and a female who looks obviously manish uses them, we don't know if she's a true transgender (I don't regard an operation as proof) or someone who just fancied dressing up as a female today. When I watched that video, a lot of the 'supposed transgender women' looked like men. I think its much more likely the majority were a very vocal bunch of transvestites. From my experience in the bowels of Londons clubbing scene, transvestites can be just as aggressive as the next man because they still have all those male hormones ripping through their veins. Transexuals tend to be quietly spoken and inobtrusive and don't generally like bringing attention to themselves.

[Vicky.]

If a trans woman can't use a female toilet, even though she looks fully female, where is she to go? and if she can't use a female toilet, does that mean female to males trans can't use male toilets? This is not whats being proposed though, and certainly is not what the 'terfs' are fighting against either. Its obvious males, who do absolutely nothing to themselves except declare 'I am a woman', who are fighting for legal access to female areas. And this is whats causing the disconnect

The rapist in the prison thing is a concern; whatever were they thinking. Perhaps we do need to have transgender facilities in prison. Putting a female to male transgender in a male prison would be foolish and putting a sex offending male in a female prison is just stupid, but in the most part, transgender prison segregation would be for the transgenders safety.

Yup. Makes most sense, but transactivists say this is 'othering'. Which in a way it is but still...safety first surely. Having the same issue in sports fairly recently too. Many many men wishing to compete against women as they are apparently 'trans'. Unfair, but allowed in some cases. And then they have the gall to use Semenya as an example of why it should be allowed. Semenya is intersex, not trans. Its different, and should be too.

The problem isn't transgender in my opinion. When I worked in the clubbing world in London, we often used to end up at a place called Stunners. When everything was packed away at 5am in the morning, we'd stop off at Alice's cafe (attached to Stunners) in Cable street to get a Bacon sandwich. This place was always buzzing with very dolled up transvestites who dressed up to the nines on a Saturday night but mostly dressed as blokes and did blokey jobs through the week. Many were married and used this promiscuous place as a secret pass time. Whilst I have nothing against a persons kink (providing its consensual and legal), I don't for a minute think 'shehe's' should have the same privileges transgenders have. Transgenderism isn't a kink, its a chosen lifestyle and something we should look at with the seriousness it deserves. The problem is, there are a lot of 'shehe' hobbyists and when we are using public female facilities and a female who looks obviously manish uses them, we don't know if she's a true transgender (I don't regard an operation as proof) or someone who just fancied dressing up as a female today. When I watched that video, a lot of the 'supposed transgender women' looked like men. I think its much more likely the majority were a very vocal bunch of transvestites. From my experience in the bowels of Londons clubbing scene, transvestites can be just as aggressive as the next man because they still have all those male hormones ripping through their veins. Transexuals tend to be quietly spoken and inobtrusive and don't generally like bringing attention to themselves.

Yes yes yes tbh. Tranvestites are not transgender and should NOT be having access to female areas, it shouldn't even be considered. The 'trans umbrella' now is so ****ing wide that even I am classed as transgender ffs, simply because I don't conform to every female stereotype and don't believe I even HAVE a 'gender identity'. Which in turn makes me a-gender or gender-queer. Which makes me trans. And this is according to stonewalls own definition. Bat****.

Currently you need a diagnosis of sex dysphoria and to have been living as your chosen sex (following stereotypes really...problematic in itself) fir 2 years to legally change sex. Whats being proposed is that this is taken away completely and you can just declare yourself the opposite sex and thus gain protections associated with that sex. Its dangerous for females, and for transsexual women alike. Transwomen (who 'pass) currently use female spaces to avoid males that they are scared of. This new law basically means, the very males they are scared of can just follow them in, by stating that they are also a woman. Anyone challenging this obvious man will be committing a hate crime. It makes a mockery of a serious illness, it does not take into account the reasons for sex segregation to start with..it just has not been thought through at all and there is endless support for it as people do not quite know what they are supporting. Its kind of scary

[DemolitionRed]

I totally get what you are saying Vicky. The sports thing is ridiculous. I doubt a male rugby team would want a female to male transgender on their team and if I was running a female rugby team, I would see the benefits of having a male to female transgender on my team!!

Trying to get a clear divide between transvestites and transgenders is a tricky one. In my view, a transgender is nothing like a transvestite or crossdresser. They may as well be a different species. I am all for protecting women but I'll add to that, I see transgender females as real women (I don't believe having ovaries and a womb is necessary to be a woman).

Transvestism has always had its place in society but it seems to be getting out of hand. I'm all for letting these 'ladies' have their fun but there's a line they shouldn't cross. They are clearly using transgenderism as an excuse to run amock and its going to be very difficult to stop them. The people this will affect the most is genuine transgender people.

[Vicky.]

I totally get what you are saying Vicky. The sports thing is ridiculous. I doubt a male rugby team would want a female to male transgender on their team and if I was running a female rugby team, I would see the benefits of having a male to female transgender on my team!!

Trying to get a clear divide between transvestites and transgenders is a tricky one. In my view, a transgender is nothing like a transvestite or crossdresser. They may as well be a different species. I am all for protecting women but I'll add to that, I see transgender females as real women (I don't believe having ovaries and a womb is necessary to be a woman).

Transvestism has always had its place in society but it seems to be getting out of hand. I'm all for letting these 'ladies' have their fun but there's a line they shouldn't cross. They are clearly using transgenderism as an excuse to run amock and its going to be very difficult to stop them. The people this will affect the most is genuine transgender people.
See, I don't necessarily think it is. The current system of needing a diagnosis of sex dysphoria to legally change sex is surely fair and separates the chancers from the genuine? I don't understand why anyone thinks it would help anyone (besides a few pervs) to just be able to declare yourself the opposite sex and 'be' that tbh. But this is exactly whats being proposed.

Also apparently having the view that sex dysphoria is an essential part of being 'trans' (else..what are you 'transitioning' to?)...and that crossdressers and the likes are not the same as transgender people... makes you a terf too :laugh: High five :D

Trans people who believe that dysphoria is clearly needed to be trans, are known as truscum and denounced by the transactivists too. Its all a little mental right now and so many don't even know its happening. As anyone who tries to explain this, is labelled transphobic. or threatened into silence. The amount of rape and death threats I had when talking about this stuff on other sites was ****ing ridiculous.

Yes, this behavior does negatively affect 'normal transsexual people'. As they tend to just want to live their own lives quietly, and they have these nutjobs shouting on about how male and female are exactly the same and how wearing a dress makes you actually a female and all that rubbish. If the law is changed, it will mainly negatively affect women and children. Then transsexuals. 'Cis' men are unlikely to be affected as on average, females are not a danger to males and oddly enough, you don't get many transmen who feel the need to force their way into male areas of life. And the entitled men who are fighting for this? get what they want and do not actually care about the people they claim to be fighting for.

Lesbians are already getting it left right and centre. Being told they are transphobic for being attracted to female people, rather than people with 'ladybrains' and penises D:

[DemolitionRed]

I can understand why lesbians are hot under the collar because trans will often declare they are lesbians, which of course, lets heterosexual females off the hook! but from what I've seen, its mainly transvestites who declare themselves as lesbians.

As for the transphobic thing, I believe there is quite a bit of transphobia going on but I also know that I wouldn't have wanted to date a female to male transgender and there are more female to male than male to female so why aren't us heterosexuals getting harassed? I think I can answer my own question. It the lipstick wearing, high heeled... walks like John Wayne, wig wearing, dance in front of the mirror trannies throwing their toys out of the pram and demanding their right to a real lesbian.

[Vicky.]

I can understand why lesbians are hot under the collar because trans will often declare they are lesbians, which of course, lets heterosexual females off the hook! but from what I've seen, its mainly transvestites who declare themselves as lesbians.

As for the transphobic thing, I believe there is quite a bit of transphobia going on but I also know that I wouldn't have wanted to date a female to male transgender and there are more female to male than male to female so why aren't us heterosexuals getting harassed? I think I can answer my own question. It the lipstick wearing, high heeled... walks like John Wayne, wig wearing, dance in front of the mirror trannies throwing their toys out of the pram and demanding their right to a real lesbian.
Transmen are female so do not have the sense of entitlement to sex that a lot of males seem to have.
Transwomen will not harass men into sleeping with them as generally, the answer would be a swift 'get ****ed' and that would be the end of it. I cannot imagine shaming a male into sex would go well at all...

Along with what you said, about it being the transvestites that are causing issues, not actual transsexual people.

IMO the problems with this whole thing are BECAUSE transvestites and pervs are suddenly being classed as 'the same' as transsexual people. They are miles apart, and should remain that way. But people are too desperate to appear 'right on' that they are not thinking through the whole thing properly at all. I was one of those people until about a year ago too...what changed for me is discovering the 'cotton ceiling' and hearing from lesbian friends how they have been harassed, outcasted and assaulted for refusing dick. Basically. Everything went from there and now I am about as 'gender critical' as they come. Whilst still acknowledging that having sex dysphoria must be crippling and horrendous to live through. This does not mean though, that I think biological sex is irrelevant. Personally I would be happy with classing actual transsexuals are their chosen sex. But its separating transsexuals from the pisstakers thats the issue. And the pisstakers seem to outnumber 'genuine' cases by a lot at the moment. And thats before even getting started on the new 'craze' of 'transkids' who simply reject sex stereotypes and are then lead to believe that because they do not 'perform' gender correctly, that they are actually 'in the wrong body'

[Oliver_W]

Lesbians are already getting it left right and centre. Being told they are transphobic for being attracted to female people, rather than people with 'ladybrains' and penises D:

Have you heard of a youtuber called Riley Dennis? Riley's a transwoman who has made several videos going on about how it's "transphobic" to not date transpeople, that calling a trap "he" is tantamount to violence, and not wanting to date a bisexual is "biphobic" ... it's a migraine, even Riley's voice gives me a headache.

[Vicky.]

Have you heard of a youtuber called Riley Dennis? Riley's a transwoman who has made several videos going on about how it's "transphobic" to not date transpeople, that calling a trap "he" is tantamount to violence, and not wanting to date a bisexual is "biphobic" ... it's a migraine, even Riley's voice gives me a headache.

I have heard of Riley and think they are an utter dick. Riley 'lets lesbians off' if they have previously been raped as apparently thats an ok excuse to not want to suck ladydick, but suggests that these people who have been raped work through their issues as its only a 'good excuse' for a certain amount of time

Riley is disgusting.

Its also fine for people like Riley to want to date female lesbians rather than 'male lesbians' (which used to be a 'joke' but is now reality...). But not ok for lesbian females to only want other females. Its all just stupid and ridiculously homophobic tbh, along with rapey to boot

[Vicky.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE-JoOQ9s7c

Same woman who I posted before. Taking on Rileys ridiculous views.

[Oliver_W]

I love Magdelen <3

[Vicky.]

Yes, she is amazing. Only discovered her a few months back and she speaks total sense. Gets a LOT of abuse though, for being a lesbian who is attracted to females (as lesbians are...) rather than 'male lesbians' and making no secret of it D:

[Brillopad]

Transmen are female so do not have the sense of entitlement to sex that a lot of males seem to have.
Transwomen will not harass men into sleeping with them as generally, the answer would be a swift 'get ****ed' and that would be the end of it. I cannot imagine shaming a male into sex would go well at all...

Along with what you said, about it being the transvestites that are causing issues, not actual transsexual people.

IMO the problems with this whole thing are BECAUSE transvestites and pervs are suddenly being classed as 'the same' as transsexual people. They are miles apart, and should remain that way. But people are too desperate to appear 'right on' that they are not thinking through the whole thing properly at all. I was one of those people until about a year ago too...what changed for me is discovering the 'cotton ceiling' and hearing from lesbian friends how they have been harassed, outcasted and assaulted for refusing dick. Basically. Everything went from there and now I am about as 'gender critical' as they come. Whilst still acknowledging that having sex dysphoria must be crippling and horrendous to live through. This does not mean though, that I think biological sex is irrelevant. Personally I would be happy with classing actual transsexuals are their chosen sex. But its separating transsexuals from the pisstakers thats the issue. And the pisstakers seem to outnumber 'genuine' cases by a lot at the moment. And thats before even getting started on the new 'craze' of 'transkids' who simply reject sex stereotypes and are then lead to believe that because they do not 'perform' gender correctly, that they are actually 'in the wrong body'

The whole thing is a perfect example of PC gone mad. Self- identification will undoubtedly be abused, it’s just a case I suspect as to numbers and to what extent. Judging by the vile rhetoric of some It seems likely that any victims of such abuse will simply be written off as ‘collateral damage’ by some intent on putting more emphasis and more value on the rights of those that feel female and/ or those that like to dress female over and above the rights of those born female.

It seems to me that many of those dismissing the views of those born as female don’t actually value the feelings and rights of this important group which suggests to me they care little about females and more about taking on the system to prove a point. The rape of women/girls by men has always been a significant issue worldwide and apparently on the rise. It is definitely not an issue to be dismissed as purely the concerns of ‘radical feminists’. Anyone who thinks that is in my opinion a person of ‘concern’.

[DemolitionRed]

The whole thing is a perfect example of PC gone mad. Self- identification will undoubtedly be abused, it’s just a case I suspect as to numbers and to what extent. Judging by the vile rhetoric of some It seems likely that any victims of such abuse will simply be written off as ‘collateral damage’ by some intent on putting more emphasis and more value on the rights of those that feel female and/ or those that like to dress female over and above the rights of those born female.

It seems to me that many of those dismissing the views of those born as female don’t actually value the feelings and rights of this important group which suggests to me they care little about females and more about taking on the system to prove a point. The rape of women/girls by men has always been a significant issue worldwide and apparently on the rise. It is definitely not an issue to be dismissed as purely the concerns of ‘radical feminists’. Anyone who thinks that is in my opinion a person of ‘concern’.

We have to be careful here. There was a time when gay men were thought of in the same light as pedophiles. To be gay was to potentially be a pedophile and we should, therefore, guard our children against them.

Some of these people want to prove a point and will happily run amock over the rights or concerns of others but this is the loud-mouthed vocal minority. The majority of male to female transgenders just quietly get on with their life. There is as much risk to transgender women as anyone else.

[Vicky.]

We have to be careful here. There was a time when gay men were thought of in the same light as pedophiles. To be gay was to potentially be a pedophile and we should, therefore, guard our children against them.

Some of these people want to prove a point and will happily run amock over the rights or concerns of others but this is the loud-mouthed vocal minority. The majority of male to female transgenders just quietly get on with their life. There is as much risk to transgender women as anyone else.

I don't think it is. I think 'genuine transsexuals' are the minority now. And I think that there should not be any laws changed to protect these mouthy bastards. As the changes in laws will be detrimental to transsexual people, along with women and kids. And some men too though I can't see too many transmen taking advantage as most of them dont want to access male areas/sports/whatever in the first place as there is no advantage for them to do so...unlike 'transwomen' v females.

Even if if IS the vocal minority, it is this vocal minority who are currently getting laws changed. It is this minority who are advising the government and schools on how to handle the issue.

People need to know whats going on, whats actually being pushed for and how blindly accepting it will be detrimental to most people besides some pervs/misogynists/narcissists. And if I will keep being called a terf and transphobic in the meantime, well I can deal with that. its water off a ducks back now tbh as, as I said, even believing biology is relevant in certain areas of life makes you a 'terf'. FFS they even call transsexual people who are gender critical terfs too :laugh:

[Oliver_W]

I don't know if any of you know of/like Blaire White, but she's a right-leaning trans youtuber, who said something like "I kind of wish we were back in the days when people didn't know what transpeople were, when we'd just use our bathrooms and in a majority of cases, no-one would think anything of it."
Such an attitude is much less harmful than the screeching idiots trying to get laws changed all over the place.

[Vicky.]

The whole thing is a perfect example of PC gone mad. Self- identification will undoubtedly be abused, it’s just a case I suspect as to numbers and to what extent. Judging by the vile rhetoric of some It seems likely that any victims of such abuse will simply be written off as ‘collateral damage’ by some intent on putting more emphasis and more value on the rights of those that feel female and/ or those that like to dress female over and above the rights of those born female.

It seems to me that many of those dismissing the views of those born as female don’t actually value the feelings and rights of this important group which suggests to me they care little about females and more about taking on the system to prove a point. The rape of women/girls by men has always been a significant issue worldwide and apparently on the rise. It is definitely not an issue to be dismissed as purely the concerns of ‘radical feminists’. Anyone who thinks that is in my opinion a person of ‘concern’.

Not often I agree with you on the 'PC gone mad' thing but this is actually a case of that I think. Or kind of...its more people being so desperate to be seen as accepting that they do not think about what they are actually fighting for. People see this as no different to gay people fighting for rights...but its very different. gay people were not asking for rights to be taken away from others, in the way that this fight is. I actually do not believe why T is tagged onto LGB, as they are nothing alike. If anything the trans-agenda is actually inherently homophobic and a lot of gay people are waking up to this now (lesbians have been awake for some time generally, as they have suffered the most through it all).

[Vicky.]

I don't know if any of you know of/like Blaire White, but she's a right-leaning trans youtuber, who said something like "I kind of wish we were back in the days when people didn't know what transpeople were, when we'd just use our bathrooms and in a majority of cases, no-one would think anything of it."
Such an attitude is much less harmful than the screeching idiots trying to get laws changed all over the place.

Yes, this is a common view among 'genuine transsexuals' actually. I know 3 transwomen and every one of them thinks this. They reckon the activists being awkward (and often violent) ***** are doing much more harm than good and are only out for themselves (often, transactivists are just like any other guy...but expect to be 'treat' as women anyway). However these transsexuals would be known as 'truscum' in the community now. As they are actual people with dysphoria. Which is a bad thing these days apparently. One should be happy waving their 'female penis' at lesbians and demanding to be let into womens changing rooms rather than trying to live their lives quietly and happily D:

[Vicky.]

Another 2 females have been physically attacked by males at the Anarchist Book Fair yesterday

Seems another male defended them, and of course twitter is up in arms about the 'bald man' attacking 'women'(defending females against males...)

The females were handing out leaflets to inform people what the changes to the law will actually mean for people. So basically, they were attacked for telling people the truth.

https://twitter.com/anokbookfair/status/924328994937495554
https://twitter.com/olivia4hersham/status/924318411290828800

More info on there, plus the leaflets they were giving out^

------

https://sages.org.uk/publications/sages-factsheet.html

Website factsheet also, which is worth a read. Seems transactivists don't want people knowing whats actually going on. What a shock. Why, because most people would disagree with it if they knew whats actually being fought for?

[user104658]

Another 2 females have been physically attacked by males at the Anarchist Book Fair yesterday

Seems another male defended them, and of course twitter is up in arms about the 'bald man' attacking 'women'(defending females against males...)

The females were handing out leaflets to inform people what the changes to the law will actually mean for people. So basically, they were attacked for telling people the truth.


Got to be honest Vicky, at this point you're starting to sound like a bit of an extremist? Like... other than the exact details of the people involved, you sound EXACTLY like TheTruth :think:. I surely can't be the only one seeing the irony in this...

[Vicky.]

Got to be honest Vicky, at this point you're starting to sound like a bit of an extremist? Like... other than the exact details of the people involved, you sound EXACTLY like TheTruth :think:. I surely can't be the only one seeing the irony in this...

By pointing out that females keep being attacked by males? And that this law is ill thought out? OK :laugh:

I know some lefties don't like people arguing against this...but meh. I can deal with that too. Am a leftie in all other respects I think. I just do not believe males should be in female spaces* (or vice versa) which is exactly what this law would allow...and even before the law we have rapists in female prisons, so it would only get worse

*exceptions for those who have undergone reassignment surgery though

[user104658]

By pointing out that females keep being attacked by males? And that this law is ill thought out? OK :laugh:

The laser-focus on the selective use of adjectives in an obviously pointed and agenda-driven manner. "These MALES, these FEMALES, this OTHER MALE. MALES this, MALES that, look at what these MALE THINGS are doing".

It's just the exact flipside of The Truth's rhetoric about women and completely disregards and eschews individualism :shrug:.

[Vicky.]

The laser-focus on the selective use of adjectives in an obviously pointed and agenda-driven manner. "These MALES, these FEMALES, this OTHER MALE. MALES this, MALES that, look at what these MALE THINGS are doing".

It's just the exact flipside of The Truth's rhetoric about women and completely disregards and eschews individualism :shrug:.

I have to use males and females though. As 'woman' and 'man' seem to have different meanings these days. Especially on threads about trans stuff...

[Vicky.]

I also do think the focus should be on the fact that its males attacking females tbh (in this instance). Trying to shut them up when they have valid concerns. Its kind of...just the norm. But dressed up as people 'defending' themselves against 'hate speech'. Because violence against people speaking is absolutely the answer...and these very same males are the ones who will be able to go into any female area if this law is passed.

Don't worry, I also have concerns about transmen going into mens changing rooms and such, though my concerns about that are more a privacy thing than a safety one. I just don't believe it will happen...especially not as often as these violent males will force themselves into female areas.

[user104658]

I have to use males and females though. As 'woman' and 'man' seem to have different meanings these days. Especially on threads about trans stuff...

This is exactly my point, though, it's pointed and promotes division and tribalism which is the entire problem. It is specific individuals with a specific agenda, attacking other individuals. It has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of males, or females, and that's what makes the extreme focus on these specific descriptors a problem. Talk of "typical males", "men", "male violence", "male actions" and "patriarchy" is barely different (if different at all?) to Truth's bizarre ideas about "what women are like", "what women do to men".

[Vicky.]

This is exactly my point, though, it's pointed and promotes division and tribalism which is the entire problem. It is specific individuals with a specific agenda, attacking other individuals. It has absolutely nothing to do with the vast majority of males, or females, and that's what makes the extreme focus on these specific descriptors a problem. Talk of "typical males", "men", "male violence", "male actions" and "patriarchy" is barely different (if different at all?) to Truth's bizarre ideas about "what women are like", "what women do to men".

I don't believe I have ever mentioned patriarchy? I don't understand that argument fully so don't think I would ever use it :laugh:

Also don't understand the objection to saying 'male violence'. Surely people are able to understand this refers to violent males rather than all males?! Or do I need a 'not all men' disclaimer?

Also I am not trying to blame this incident (and the 60 year old attacked) on all males. But it was males (who say they are female) doing the attacking, and females on the receiving end. Not sure what the issue is with pointing this out tbh. transactivists are mostly male. And misogynistic males at that. Also people who believe violence solves problems...and use violence to 'shut up' alternative views.

[user104658]

I don't believe I have ever mentioned patriarchy? I don't understand that argument fully so don't think I would ever use it [emoji23]

Also don't understand the objection to saying 'male violence'. Surely people are able to understand this refers to violent males rather than all males?! Or do I need a 'not all men' disclaimer?

Also I am not trying to blame this incident (and the 60 year old attacked) on all males. But it was males (who say they are female) doing the attacking, and females on the receiving end. Not sure what the issue is with pointing this out tbh. transactivists are mostly male. And misogynistic males at that. Also people who believe violence solves problems...and use violence to 'shut up' alternative views.Because the problem, and so many of the west's social problems at the moment, has nothing to do with groups or grouping beyond the grouping itself. Like I said; it's tribalism, and the rhetoric around it relies heavily on the use of grouping terms.

"Transactivists attacked TERFS who are a branch of the tribe of Feminism, and they were stopped by some passing cismales"

When there are most likely only 5 or 6 people involved in the entire thing. It overinflates it and - most importantly - it plays right into that "tribal narrative".people seem to be utterly desperate to pigeonhole others - and themselves - into specific packages... and thus the cycle continues.

[Vicky.]

'Cis' is pigeonholing people too tbh.

I don't identify as 'cis' and I don't believe many others would if they knew what it actually meant. I dont conform to 'feminine' stereotypes. I don't have a 'gender identity' at all and think 'gender' is all bollocks and a social construct. Which makes me technically a-gender, or non-binary, which in turn puts me under the 'trans umbrella'...I actually think 90%+ of people would be under the umbrella if they knew what all the bull**** terms meant.

The only way 'non-binary' and such is 'special' is if it is assumed everyone else is 'cis'. When thats not the case at all.

[user104658]

'Cis' is pigeonholing people too tbh.

I don't identify as 'cis' and I don't believe many others would if they knew what it actually meant. I dont conform to 'feminine' stereotypes. I don't have a 'gender identity' at all and think 'gender' is all bollocks and a social construct. Which makes me technically a-gender, or non-binary, which in turn puts me under the 'trans umbrella'...I actually think 90%+ of people would be under the umbrella if they knew what all the bull**** terms meant.

The only way 'non-binary' and such is 'special' is if it is assumed everyone else is 'cis'. When thats not the case at all.

Exactly! It's all bull**** and that's why we shouldn't play into the hands of it by creating "us" and "others" in any circumstance.

Here is the only accurate description of what happened if trying to use loose terms rather than specific motivations:

"Some individuals attacked some other individuals while they were doing some stuff specific to them, because those individuals happened to take personal issue with those things". That's it, that is the entire story.

[Vicky.]

But its still important that the message gets out about what this law change will actually be. Rather than the fluffy 'its for trans rights' version the activists put out. When its nothing at all to do with trans rights and infact is detrimental to a lot of transsexual people :S

So maybe

People telling the truth about a law change physically attacked by people who do not give a crap about the rights of others and don't want the truth to get out about what the law change actually means for most people?

[DemolitionRed]

I don't think it is. I think 'genuine transsexuals' are the minority now. And I think that there should not be any laws changed to protect these mouthy bastards. As the changes in laws will be detrimental to transsexual people, along with women and kids. And some men too though I can't see too many transmen taking advantage as most of them dont want to access male areas/sports/whatever in the first place as there is no advantage for them to do so...unlike 'transwomen' v females.

Even if if IS the vocal minority, it is this vocal minority who are currently getting laws changed. It is this minority who are advising the government and schools on how to handle the issue.

People need to know whats going on, whats actually being pushed for and how blindly accepting it will be detrimental to most people besides some pervs/misogynists/narcissists. And if I will keep being called a terf and transphobic in the meantime, well I can deal with that. its water off a ducks back now tbh as, as I said, even believing biology is relevant in certain areas of life makes you a 'terf'. FFS they even call transsexual people who are gender critical terfs too :laugh:

But like TS has pointed out, its the minority who are being mouthy bastards and not the majority.

Having worked in the club scene, the transsexuals I've known have been very gender-critical, to a point of unfairness. They like to point out that they are a woman with a cherry on top whilst others aren't.

I've yet to meet a misogynist transexual or transvestite. They normally adore everything that is considered female and feminine.

There are transvestite pervs but transvestite pervs tend to like men, not women. Stunners was full of transvestite pervs and it was full of men who considered themselves straight but wanted a quick shag with something that looked relatively female.
Crossdressers tend to be straight. They just like the feel of female clothes on their bodies but tend to have straight girlfriends and wives who are cool with that.

[Vicky.]

But like TS has pointed out, its the minority who are being mouthy bastards and not the majority.

Having worked in the club scene, the transsexuals I've known have been very gender-critical, to a point of unfairness. They like to point out that they are a woman with a cherry on top whilst others aren't.

I've yet to meet a misogynist transexual or transvestite. They normally adore everything that is considered female and feminine.

There are transvestite pervs but transvestite pervs tend to like men, not women. Stunners was full of transvestite pervs and it was full of men who considered themselves straight but wanted a quick shag with something that looked relatively female.
Crossdressers tend to be straight. They just like the feel of female clothes on their bodies but tend to have straight girlfriends and wives who are cool with that.
Yes, from my experience (I know 3 transwomen in real life and talk to a fair few online too) actual transsexual people do NOT think they are actually female and would also benefit from 'gender' being abolished completely. They also kind of take offense when others tell them they actually ARE women as they say a transwoman is a transwoman, not a woman. Its different. And thats fine.

The transsexual cause (and also intersex is appropriated a lot in the arguments) has basically been hijacked by a bunch of idiots with their own agenda.

BUT noone is challenging this

Transpeople who challenge it are shouted down by the very same 'activists' who claim to be fighting for them. they are called truscum and denounced by their own communities ffs. Women who challenge it are shouted down and threatened with rape and violence (indeed some actually are attacked). Men who challenge it are just ignored...but the men who challenge it are fewer as it hasn't personally affected them yet.

Its all a mess. yet these activists are actually consulting with the government, and schools. The same group who attacked (and defended the attackers) the 60 year old (trans health for london or whatever the hell they call themselves) are the ones 'advising Maria Miller on this ridiculous new law.

Bonkers. And I am glad the gender critical voices seem to be getting more common. As as soon as people think a little deeper into it, they see it all for the bull**** it is.

There are transvestite pervs but transvestite pervs tend to like men, not women.

Well its women, and more specifically lesbians who are bearing the brunt of this. How does that tally? Every lesbian I know (which is quite a few, as I drink on the gay scene) has had at least one negative experience with a 'transwoman' who is a 'lesbian'. I didn't even know about this until about a year ago as I was very much in the 'transwomen are women' camp and would have said any other view was transphobic. Since I became gender critical, these people have confided in me...and actually said they never said anything before as I would cry 'transphobe' like the other people they told. Thats sad..it really is

[Vicky.]

Kind of offtopic, but I think there are as many 'genders' as there are people on this earth. As gender is just personality and dress sense when it comes down to it.

Of course some people have sex dysphoria, but this is not really anything to do with 'gender', its a dislike of their body parts. Like any other dysphoria. If this is eased by surgeries and such, then good for them. All evidence shows though that after surgery, suicide risk actually rises, so I don't think its the 'miracle cure' that some seem to think it is. Either way though,. if adults want to have surgery its up to them. What I dislike most about this whole thing, is the targeting of children. Convincing the likes of 'tomboys' that they actually are boys and setting them on the route to sterilization and lifetime medical intervention. Its just wrong. A kids brain isn't even fully developed ffs. And also, kids with 'gender dysphoria' if just left alone to develop properly, 80%+ of them grow out of it, and most simply become gay adults. This 'transing' kids thing is blatantly homophobic. Its modern day eugenics. Yet has widespread support from people who do not actually think into it. Madness. Total madness.

Just let kids be kids, and let them wear or play with whatever they like. Dress sense and toy choice have nothing to do with their sex :shrug: To pretend they do, is ****ing dangerous and stupid.

[DemolitionRed]

Yes, from my experience (I know 3 transwomen in real life and talk to a fair few online too) actual transsexual people do NOT think they are actually female and would also benefit from 'gender' being abolished completely. They also kind of take offense when others tell them they actually ARE women as they say a transwoman is a transwoman, not a woman. Its different. And thats fine.

The transsexual cause (and also intersex is appropriated a lot in the arguments) has basically been hijacked by a bunch of idiots with their own agenda.

BUT noone is challenging this

Transpeople who challenge it are shouted down by the very same 'activists' who claim to be fighting for them. they are called truscum and denounced by their own communities ffs. Women who challenge it are shouted down and threatened with rape and violence (indeed some actually are attacked). Men who challenge it are just ignored...but the men who challenge it are fewer as it hasn't personally affected them yet.

Its all a mess. yet these activists are actually consulting with the government, and schools. The same group who attacked the 60 year old (trans health for london or whatever the hell they call themselves) are the ones 'advising Maria Miller on this ridiculous new law.

Bonkers. And I am glad the gender critical voices seem to be getting more common. As as soon as people think a little deeper into it, they see it all for the bull**** it is.



Well its women, and more specifically lesbians who are bearing the brunt of this. How does that tally? Every lesbian I know (which is quite a few, as I drink on the gay scene) has had at least one negative experience with a 'transwoman' who is a 'lesbian'. I didn't even know about this until about a year ago as I was very much in the 'transwomen are women' camp and would have said any other view was transphobic. Since I became gender critical, these people have confided in me...and actually said they never said anything before as I would cry 'transphobe' like the other people they told. Thats sad..it really is

Or its lesbian women who are complaining about it. Depends on where you spend your nights out but I'll bet you plenty of men get the come on from this particular type of girl brigade. I've been asked out on several occasions in the past by transvestites. Its never been a problem when I've said I'm not interested. What I didn't say is, "I'd never date a trani because I only date men and your not a real man." Perhaps that's the mistake gay girls are making when they are trying to put these trans females off. I've always got along fine with mixed genders but then I've never shown revulsion. The ones I've been acquainted to have always been pleasant and polite.

I've also hung out in gay bars but generally, I find gay men much more fun and friendly than gay women. Gay women generally find me being bi, offensive and for some reason, threatening, even though I've never considered coming on to a lesbian. Gay women are probably my least selective group to be amongst because they seem to be so intent on protecting themselves from the outside world, that they to have difficulty chilling out.

[Vicky.]

Or its lesbian women who are complaining about it. Depends on where you spend your nights out but I'll bet you plenty of men get the come on from this particular type of girl brigade. I've been asked out on several occasions in the past by transvestites. Its never been a problem when I've said I'm not interested. What I didn't say is, "I'd never date a trani because I only date men and your not a real man." Perhaps that's the mistake gay girls are making when they are trying to put these trans females off. I've always got along fine with mixed genders but then I've never shown revulsion. The ones I've been acquainted to have always been pleasant and polite.

I've also hung out in gay bars but generally, I find gay men much more fun and friendly than gay women. Gay women generally find me being bi, offensive and for some reason, threatening, even though I've never considered coming on to a lesbian. Gay women are probably my least selective group to be amongst because they seem to be so intent on protecting themselves from the outside world, that they to have difficulty chilling out.
Hmm maybe. My husband gets come onto by so many gay men when we are out, he finds it hilarious and they almost always back off when he says he is straight :laugh: The drag queens though, will pester and pester. But he doesn't feel intimidated by it

When 'transwomen' (or straight men who like wearing dresses, not genuine transsexuals) are coming onto lesbians...it seems they do not take no for an answer...and the women find that intimidating. Hell in one case, the person 'passed' as female and actually did not reveal that they were a 'person with a penis' until they had the lesbian alone at her house. That completely wrong. This person physically assaulted the lesbian, when the lesbian said that she did not shag people with penises as she was gay. The argument was, you were attracted to me until you realized I was trans, bigot! And they did not appear to understand that lesbians just do not suck dick. Apparently another part of the argument was that lesbians use dildos, so this was no different. Which is very homophobic tbh.

Lesbians really are bearing the brunt of this 'movement' IMO. And when they speak out, they are branded 'transphobic' as 'transwomen are women'. Bizzare. Sexualities are transphobic because people are attracted to a certain sex and apparently sex doesn't matter at all, 'gender identity' does. Both homophobic and (I don't think this is really a thing but for the sake of argument) heterophobic.

Gay women are probably my least selective group to be amongst because they seem to be so intent on protecting themselves from the outside world, that they to have difficulty chilling out.

This is likely to be because their sexualities are attacked over and over. Along with them being physically attacked/intimidated on a regular basis, just for being gay. The stories I have heard about how lesbians are treat in general would curl toes tbh.

Gay men are much more accepted by society than lesbians are.

Read up on the 'cotton ceiling' for how these 'transwomen' (note, not transsexuals) who are attracted to females view lesbians. Its sick.

https://terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/
http://sjwiki.org/wiki/Cotton_ceiling
[T]he cotton ceiling [is] us[ed] to challenge cis lesbians’ tendency to support trans causes generally but draw the line at sleeping with trans women or including trans lesbians in their sexual communities.[5]

[Oliver_W]

and think 'gender' is all bollocks and a social construct

Which aspects of gender roles are societal, rather than being driven by biology/neurology?

[DemolitionRed]

Hmm maybe. My husband gets come onto by so many gay men when we are out, he finds it hilarious and they almost always back off when he says he is straight :laugh: The drag queens though, will pester and pester. But he doesn't feel intimidated by it


Mine too, but like your husband, it doesn't bother him. If we go in a gay bar the men think I'm his faghag! I actually enjoy them trying to come on to him. I guess that makes me a little sick :hehe:



This is likely to be because their sexualities are attacked over and over. Along with them being physically attacked/intimidated on a regular basis, just for being gay. The stories I have heard about how lesbians are treat in general would curl toes tbh.


Is that because lesbians are much more private? gay men tend to be out there in all their glory. All of us love a gay male friend because they are so much fun. Lesbians on the other hand, generally aren't a lot of fun to be around.

I would also say that transsexuals and transvestites are attacked a lot, especially physically. If you look at suicide rates of transexuals, its a lot higher than the average gay person.

One things for sure from this thread... you and I haven't led sheltered lives:smug:

[user104658]

gay men tend to be out there in all their glory. All of us love a gay male friend because they are so much fun. Lesbians on the other hand, generally aren't a lot of fun to be around.:

Really though DR? Do you also love your Scottish friends because they play the bagpipes so well, and your Indian friends because they make wonderful curries?

I'm genuinely a bit surprised that you're suggesting that broad stereotypes are in any way an accurate depiction of the average gay male or female :umm2:.

[DemolitionRed]

Really though DR? Do you also love your Scottish friends because they play the bagpipes so well, and your Indian friends because they make wonderful curries?

I'm genuinely a bit surprised that you're suggesting that broad stereotypes are in any way an accurate depiction of the average gay male or female :umm2:.

I can only go on my own observation TS.

[Vicky.]

Which aspects of gender roles are societal, rather than being driven by biology/neurology?
Every bit of it

Do you think that people with vaginas tend to wear dresses and play with dolls for biological reasons, or because society tells them thats 'how to girl' and pushes it on them from birth?

I would argue that sex is biology. And that sex cannot be changed. Yes there are biological differences between sexes. Bit none of this is anything to do with 'gender' or 'trans' and no trans person can really 'feel like a woman/man' as they are not a woman/man so cannot know how a woman/man feels. And that most women/men do not feel 'like women/men' they just feel like themselves. Basically in short, sex is a biological reality, not a feeling inside someones head.

And gender is entirely social. And no matter what your sex, you are free to do whatever the hell you like with your hairdo, makeup clothes and whatnot. But changing these things does not mean you have actually changed sex (an a hell of a lot of transsexuals agree with this too) and to pretend that this does mean you have changed sex is detrimental to everyone.

What parts of gender roles do you think are down to biology/neurology?

[Vicky.]

I would also say that transsexuals and transvestites are attacked a lot, especially physically. If you look at suicide rates of transexuals, its a lot higher than the average gay person.


This is because 'trans' is often alongisde a hell of a lot of mental health conditions. I believe its something like 60% of trans people have co-morbid mental disorders. 20% have more than 1 mental health problem too

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882090/

Makes sense that suicide rates are higher among a population that has more mental health issues tbh

So surely...the answer to this is not surgery(after which, suicide rate actually goes up) and pretending that they actually are the sex they want to be? The solution is therapy...or that should be the start at the very least. But therapy is 'gatekeeping' and transactivists fight against this also. Mental.

A disproportionate amount of FTM trans people have been sexually abused. This also needs looking into and researched. I think its obvious that someome who has been abused might find life as the opposite sex quite appealing, if they think they would be safer that way.

Also a lot of people who are trans have autism or conditions like that..the link is getting cleaer and clearer. Something else that needs looked into and not just written off as 'transphobic nonsense'

Many many people who have undergone hormones and/or surgery regret it and want to 'change back'. This is important research but research thats NOT ALLOWED to be done. Seriously. Looking into that is also deemed transphobic...and instead we have to pretend that detransitioners do not exist.

[user104658]

I can only go on my own observation TS.

That's exactly how stereotypes are created and furthered, though. Predicting and assuming that someone will be "how you expect them to be" based on your past experiences of "other people of that sort". The idea that "Gay men are so much fun!" but "Lesbians aren't fun to be around" is just as damaging as saying something like "You're Asian, so you must be really clever!" or "I wouldn't hang around black men... Black men tend to be so aggressive".

It's the very definition of pigeonholing and "judging a book by its cover", and I've always thought of you as the sort of person who is more likely to take each individual as they come rather than "lumping into" easily digestible personality archetypes?

In MY experience of gay men - and I have some very good gay friends - they would find the sentence "Gay men are so much fun to have as friends" to be patronising, sweeping, shallow and impersonal.

[DemolitionRed]

This is because 'trans' is often alongisde a hell of a lot of mental health conditions. I believe its something like 60% of trans people have co-morbid mental disorders. 20% have more than 1 mental health problem too

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882090/

Makes sense that suicide rates are higher among a population that has more mental health issues tbh

So surely...the answer to this is not surgery(after which, suicide rate actually goes up) and pretending that they actually are the sex they want to be? The solution is therapy...or that should be the start at the very least. But therapy is 'gatekeeping' and transactivists fight against this also. Mental.

A disproportionate amount of FTM trans people have been sexually abused. This also needs looking into and researched. I think its obvious that someome who has been abused might find life as the opposite sex quite appealing, if they think they would be safer that way.

Also a lot of people who are trans have autism or conditions like that..the link is getting cleaer and clearer. Something else that needs looked into and not just written off as 'transphobic nonsense'

Many many people who have undergone hormones and/or surgery regret it and want to 'change back'. This is important research but research thats NOT ALLOWED to be done. Seriously. Looking into that is also deemed transphobic...and instead we have to pretend that detransitioners do not exist.

I'm sorry. I mean, maybe there is some truth in this but this is beyond my comprehension. I can not accept that transexuals are mainly suffering from mental illness and past abuse. Transsexualism is not a and must never be seen as a mental condition or a condition of circumstance.

[DemolitionRed]

That's exactly how stereotypes are created and furthered, though. Predicting and assuming that someone will be "how you expect them to be" based on your past experiences of "other people of that sort". The idea that "Gay men are so much fun!" but "Lesbians aren't fun to be around" is just as damaging as saying something like "You're Asian, so you must be really clever!" or "I wouldn't hang around black men... Black men tend to be so aggressive".

It's the very definition of pigeonholing and "judging a book by its cover", and I've always thought of you as the sort of person who is more likely to take each individual as they come rather than "lumping into" easily digestible personality archetypes?

In MY experience of gay men - and I have some very good gay friends - they would find the sentence "Gay men are so much fun to have as friends" to be patronising, sweeping, shallow and impersonal.

You do realize that you are doing what I did? you are using your experience to suggest you know how gay men feel.

There is nothing patronizing about suggesting someone is fun to be around. Our middle son is gay and he doesn't find it patronizing knowing he makes us laugh and that we find his company fun. If that's shallow, so be it, I can live with that.

[Vicky.]

I'm sorry. I mean, maybe there is some truth in this but this is beyond my comprehension. I can not accept that transexuals are mainly suffering from mental illness and past abuse. Transsexualism is not a and must never be seen as a mental condition or a condition of circumstance.

Of course its a mental health condition in itself. As its believeing you are something you are not. Fairly similar to anorexia actually. Or Body dysmorphic disorder. Both of which are classed as mental health disorders.

But ignoring that, saying trans people suffer mental health problems disproportionately to the rest of the population, based on the only study we have available...surely is not a problem? Saying more studies need to go into it, is not a problem?

Saying its very important for research to be done on detransitioners, is not a problem either. As this is very important as it affects a lot of people, and will affect even more when this generation of 'trans kids' grows up and start suing the NHS and their parents. Yet research into this very subject was blocked due to transactivists and 'political correctness'...it as deemed not neccesary because of negative publicity it would create for the university. Mental...again.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/25/bath-spa-university-transgender-gender-reassignment-reversal-research or http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/psychotherapist-gender-assignment-surgery-reverse-research-stop-trans-bath-spa-university-james-a7965281.html - proof of my last paragraph

[user104658]

You do realize that you are doing what I did? you are using your experience to suggest you know how gay men feel.

There is nothing patronizing about suggesting someone is fun to be around. Our middle son is gay and he doesn't find it patronizing knowing he makes us laugh and that we find his company fun. If that's shallow, so be it, I can live with that.

No, I'm using my experience of specific people to point out for a fact that your generalisations of a group of people are clearly not true for all members of that group. It's great that your son, as an individual, doesn't find it patronising. It means absolutely nothing about how anyone else would feel about it. And it's great that you find his company fun. I wonder... Would you find his company tedious if he was straight? Or could it - perhaps - be that your enjoyment of him as an individual personality has absolutely piss all to do with his sexuality?

[DemolitionRed]

No, I'm using my experience of specific people to point out for a fact that your generalisations of a group of people are clearly not true for all members of that group. It's great that your son, as an individual, doesn't find it patronising. It means absolutely nothing about how anyone else would feel about it. And it's great that you find his company fun. I wonder... Would you find his company tedious if he was straight? Or could it - perhaps - be that your enjoyment of him as an individual personality has absolutely piss all to do with his sexuality?

This is starting to feel like semantic games... I'm not playing.

[user104658]

This is starting to feel like semantic games... I'm not playing.It isn't semantic games at all, it bugs me when people are defined or pre-defined by people's expectations of their social archetype rather than as an individual. It couldn't be much simpler.

[DemolitionRed]

Of course its a mental health condition in itself. As its believeing you are something you are not. Fairly similar to anorexia actually. Or Body dysmorphic disorder. Both of which are classed as mental health disorders.

But ignoring that, saying trans people suffer mental health problems disproportionately to the rest of the population, based on the only study we have available...surely is not a problem? Saying more studies need to go into it, is not a problem?

Saying its very important for research to be done on detransitioners, is not a problem either. As this is very important as it affects a lot of people, and will affect even more when this generation of 'trans kids' grows up and start suing the NHS and their parents. Yet research into this very subject was blocked due to transactivists and 'political correctness'...it as deemed not neccesary because of negative publicity it would create for the university. Mental...again.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/25/bath-spa-university-transgender-gender-reassignment-reversal-research or http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/psychotherapist-gender-assignment-surgery-reverse-research-stop-trans-bath-spa-university-james-a7965281.html - proof of my last paragraph

But not all trans are body dysmorphic. Are people who enjoy ‘gender expression’ or those who are ‘gender nonconformist’ and ‘genderqueer’ also suffering from mental illness? There are so many different types of trans people and not all of them have gender dysphoria.

[Oliver_W]

What parts of gender roles do you think are down to biology/neurology?
Basically all of it? I'm not gonna talk about clothes and makeup because fashions change and have changed over time, while most aspects of gender roles have remained solid.

Males and females are biologically and neurologically different, and these differences are what inform the differences in the roles males and females generally take in society.

Males have about 7% more grey matter in their brains, and in the cerebellum men have more connections between hemispheres, which means an increased ability to translate perception, and for motorskill and ability. Along with the on average higher bone density and muscle mass, this makes males better suited for physical work, and which is why back in our primitive days, men were the hunters.

Meanwhile, females have about 10% more white matter in their brains, and more connections between frontal lobes, which translates to greater empathy, social skills, and nurturing behaviours. This is why women are better suited for staying at home and raising the kids, while men go out and earn the daily bread.

And then there's hormones to consider. Higher testosterone in males drives behaviours such as competitiveness, higher sex drive, more aggression, and providing resources to attract potential mates. Females have more estrogen, which fuels the instincts to nurture and emphasize. Which could explain why courses and careers geared around helping others (nursing, child care, etc.) We even could touch briefly on the makeup thing, as being attractive helps females attract a mate who can provide children and resources.

At the end of the day, we are animals, and we are the products of biology.

[DemolitionRed]

Prenatal Exposure to Anticonvulsants and Psychosexual Development
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018789521375

Typical female 2nd–4th finger length (2D:4D) ratios in male-to-female transsexuals—possible implications for prenatal androgen exposure http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453005001770

[Vicky.]

But not all trans are body dysmorphic. Are people who enjoy ‘gender expression’ or those who are ‘gender nonconformist’ and ‘genderqueer’ also suffering from mental illness? There are so many different types of trans people and not all of them have gender dysphoria.

Trassexuals are.

Trangenders without dysphoria simply enjoy dressing a certain way and simply saying they are women. Which is utter bollocks tbh, people like this are just femine males, or masculine females.

Basically all of it? I'm not gonna talk about clothes and makeup because fashions change and have changed over time, while most aspects of gender roles have remained solid.

Males and females are biologically and neurologically different, and these differences are what inform the differences in the roles males and females generally take in society.

Males have about 7% more grey matter in their brains, and in the cerebellum men have more connections between hemispheres, which means an increased ability to translate perception, and for motorskill and ability. Along with the on average higher bone density and muscle mass, this makes males better suited for physical work, and which is why back in our primitive days, men were the hunters.

Meanwhile, females have about 10% more white matter in their brains, and more connections between frontal lobes, which translates to greater empathy, social skills, and nurturing behaviours. This is why women are better suited for staying at home and raising the kids, while men go out and earn the daily bread.

And then there's hormones to consider. Higher testosterone in males drives behaviours such as competitiveness, higher sex drive, more aggression, and providing resources to attract potential mates. Females have more estrogen, which fuels the instincts to nurture and emphasize. Which could explain why courses and careers geared around helping others (nursing, child care, etc.) We even could touch briefly on the makeup thing, as being attractive helps females attract a mate who can provide children and resources.

At the end of the day, we are animals, and we are the products of biology.
Everything you have just mentioned, is a result of biological differences between the sexes though. Nothing to do with 'gender'? Yes male and female people are different. Thats kind of my point. Males cannot be female. And females cannot be male. As its all just biology.

For example, you mention women being better suited for nurturing and caring professions. A male who choses a caring profession, does not become a woman. He is just a man who likes caring.

There is so much crossover in our brains...that sexed bodies are pretty much the only proper difference between males and females.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/feeling-it/201306/are-women-really-more-compassionate

Yesterday, journalists at Huffington Post Live asked me to comment on whether women are more compassionate than men. Scientists in general tend to cringe at any strong black-and-white statements of this kind since we know there is no data to support such strong claims. If you ask a neuroscientist to distinguish a male from a female brain, for example, s/he would have a difficult time doing so. Although differences have been detected (for example, women appear to make greater use of both hemispheres of the brain and therefore have a slightly thicker corpus callosum—the part of the brain that bridges the two hemispheres), the differences are subtle and there is no single area of the brain that we can say clearly distinguishes a male brain from a female brain.

[Vicky.]

Prenatal Exposure to Anticonvulsants and Psychosexual Development
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1018789521375

Typical female 2nd–4th finger length (2D:4D) ratios in male-to-female transsexuals—possible implications for prenatal androgen exposure http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0306453005001770

Stuff like this really needs to be looked into more. I am more than willing to accept that there are biological reasons for transsexual people being transsexual. None of this is anything to do with the new breed of 'transgender' though. As transsexuals have nothing in common with 'transgender'. Transsexuals are at odds with their sexed bodies, and will take steps to 'change' this. Transgenders are the ones yelling about how the penis is a female organ and other rubbish like that. Its trangenders who are causing the problems right now, and making life harder for actual transsexual people.

Just read this piece by Miranda Yardley which explains a lot of my views on this topic pretty well. Before denouncing her as a terf or 'transphobic'...Miranda is actually a transsexual...and a lot of transsexual people agree with what she says.

http://mirandayardley.com/en/finding-the-middle-ground-between-womens-rights-and-transgender-rights/

Miranda was also present in the speakers corner incident (the 60 year old being attacked by transactivists) and the activists were telling her she was transphobic too. They did not like it when she told them transmysoginy was a made up word :laugh: Idiots.

[Oliver_W]

Everything you have just mentioned, is a result of biological differences between the sexes though. Nothing to do with 'gender'?
It's to do with gender roles, the roles each of the two genders take in society, are defined by biological sex.

For example, you mention women being better suited for nurturing and caring professions. A male who choses a caring profession, does not become a woman. He is just a man who likes caring.
No, he'd be a male not fully following the gender role.

[Vicky.]

It's to do with gender roles, the roles each of the two genders take in society, are defined by biological sex.


No, he'd be a male not fully following the gender role.

I am not understanding your posts on this if I am honest.

Yes testosterone and male sexed bodied tends to make men stronger, and thus more suited to physical work (as a class. Some women are stronger than some men obviously)

What does this have to do with trans? You just admitted that a man taking on a stereotypically female gender role is still a man, just being unstereotypical. So...how does this tally with transgender people claiming taking on stereotypical female roles ARE actually female?

Basically, while some sex stereotypes may have a little basis in biology (many don't...and the ones usually mentioned when trans people talk are clothing and hairdo and toys they played with...which have NO basis in biolgy and are entirely socially constructed), they are still just stereotypes and are definitely not true of everyone of whichever sex. And not being stereotypical of your sex, does not make you the opposite sex.

[Oliver_W]

I am not understanding your posts on this if I am honest.

Yes testosterone and male sexed bodied tends to make men stronger, and thus more suited to physical work (as a class. Some women are stronger than some men obviously)

What does this have to do with trans? You just admitted that a man taking on a stereotypically female gender role is still a man, just being unstereotypical. So...how does this tally with transgender people claiming taking on stereotypical female roles ARE actually female?

I wasn't talking about trans. I was talking about how gender roles aren't really socially constructed, but are biology driven.


Basically, while some sex stereotypes may have a little basis in biology (many don't...and the ones usually mentioned when trans people talk are clothing and hairdo and toys they played with...which have NO basis in biolgy and are entirely socially constructed), they are still just stereotypes and are definitely not true of everyone of whichever sex. And not being stereotypical of your sex, does not make you the opposite sex.
Depends on the toys. Playing with dolls can be reflective of caring/maternal instincts, for example.

[Vicky.]

Depends on the toys. Playing with dolls can be reflective of caring/maternal instincts, for example.

A child is not maternal though. Little girls play with dolls as thats what they are given. They would be equally happy with a truck...and some would prefer the truck.

What we have happening now, is that a girl child who prefers playing with trucks and playing in mud, is called trans. Which is just ****ing bonkers.

[Oliver_W]

What we have happening now, is that a girl child who prefers playing with trucks and playing in mud, is called trans. Which is just ****ing bonkers.

On that I agree!

[Vicky.]

On that I agree!

Do you believe a child can even BE trans? Given kids do not understand the differences between the sexes...and certainly do not understand it enough to make any kind of decision on what sex they are?

Its interesting talking to other people who agree with my stance on this tbh. As generally...talking about this leads to accusations of transphobia, when its really not. Its concern for the children caught up in all of this nonsense. Who will be put onto 'blockers' (which arent actually reversible in practise, when treating 'transkids') and then onto cross sex hormones whilst their brains are still stuck in a childlike state.

Every single story of kids being trans follows the same narrative. Liked playing with toys associated with opposite sex, and wanted to wear dresses/refused to wear dresses, wanted long/short hair...and so on.

I think older 'trans' people are forcing this onto children (as they are the ones advising schools on how to deal with it) to validate themselves. And using kids in this manner is ****ing wrong and SHOULD be questioned by everyone. Especially when it turns out that 80%-95% of gender questioning kids grow out of it if left to just develop naturally. And the huge majority of these kids simply turn out to be gay. But when put onto the blockers route, 100% go onto 'transition'

[Oliver_W]

Do you believe a child can even BE trans? Given kids do not understand the differences between the sexes...and certainly do not understand it enough to make any kind of decision on what sex they are?

Its interesting talking to other people who agree with my stance on this tbh. As generally...talking about this leads to accusations of transphobia, when its really not. Its concern for the children caught up in all of this nonsense. Who will be put onto 'blockers' (which arent actually reversible in practise, when treating 'transkids') and then onto cross sex hormones whilst their brains are still stuck in a childlike state.

Every single story of kids being trans follows the same narrative. Liked playing with toys associated with opposite sex, and wanted to wear dresses/refused to wear dresses, wanted long/short hair...and so on.

The only transperson I've ever known in real life was FTM, and he started transitioning at around 17. We were only "sort of friends", so I wasn't really in a position to ask personal questions which didn't come up organically, and we don't speak anymore, we didn't stay in touch after college ended, so I don't know how long he know he was trans. My other go to example for non-insane transpeople is Blaire White, who says she always knew she was different, but didn't necessarily have the words or frame of reference to say she was trans - an example she gives is that in kindergarten, when the teacher would say "girls go to this side of the room", BW would feel more inclined to go over to this side. She never really spoke of toys or clothes.

So to sum up, I'm not sure if a child can necessarily be trans, especially as a lot of "trans" kids grow out of it, but I do think the seeds are always there.

[Vicky.]

The only transperson I've ever known in real life was FTM, and he started transitioning at around 17. We were only "sort of friends", so I wasn't really in a position to ask personal questions which didn't come up organically, and we don't speak anymore, we didn't stay in touch after college ended, so I don't know how long he know he was trans. My other go to example for non-insane transpeople is Blaire White, who says she always knew she was different, but didn't necessarily have the words or frame of reference to say she was trans - an example she gives is that in kindergarten, when the teacher would say "girls go to this side of the room", BW would feel more inclined to go over to this side. She never really spoke of toys or clothes.

So to sum up, I'm not sure if a child can necessarily be trans, especially as a lot of "trans" kids grow out of it, but I do think the seeds are always there.

Yeah I would probably agree with this tbh. The thinking of somethings not right could be there in childhood I guess. I would still question though, wether this is because 'gender' was enforced on the kids too much. Ie. A kid felt they HAD to say they were a boy because their parents said trucks were just for boys and whatnot.

I also feel theres an element of internalized homophobia to a lot of 'transkids'. Better to be trans than gay kind of thinking, obviously put into them by the adults in their lfie at some stage.

The desire to 'trans' kids who just break gender stereotypes though, is extremely homophobic. And is entirely driven by adults with their own agenda. This is just inexcusable, and I am so glad people are starting to speak up about this now. Surprised its taken so long. It annoys me that I was firmly in the 'transwomen ARE women' (and vice versa...just its usually transwomen who dominate any discussions...you very very rarely hear from transmen for some reason) camp until recently, I admit that I had never thought any deeper into it all. And the second I did stop to think that 'maybe, just maybe the 'terfs' might have a point' was when I turned fully gender critical. All it took for me was an introduction to the cotton ceiling concept, and then seeing quite how prominent that view is...the view that lesbians who refuse cock are transphobic. Hell even some 'trans allies' will scream about this too.

I now feel that to say a transwoman is a woman, is damaging to trans people and women alike.

I genuinely do think that the world would benefit so much if these 'transgender' people who do NOT have sex dysphoria would just break the stereotypes of their own sex. For example, be proud of wearing a dress to work if you are male, rather than having everyone pretend that you wearing a dress makes you an actual woman. Do not shout and scream about how your penis is female and your dress sense means you should be entitled to enter sex segregated areas. Once more people start to do this, the less fuss will be made about gender.

Hell we got close to 'abolishing gender' in the 80s. With Boy George and David Bowie and the likes of Prince who people looked up to leading the way.... How did we go so backwards in such a short space of time? People today will claim that these people I mention were actually trans. Its ****ing stupid.

[Vicky.]

One of these guys who hit the 60 year old woman is up in court next week.

And look at what the transactivists are planning for ****s sake.. (sorry it won't let me copy the images to post the actual images but they are in the OP of this)

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3163592-TRAs-have-a-demonstration-planned-for-next-week?pg=1

I can see a bunch of people turning up at Westminster Court in balaclavas, facemasks and and unidentifiable clothing going down really really well with security :D

And asking for a human shield as they are scared of women.

And making out 'terfs' are some kind of planned group or something too. When they are infact just..people who believe in biology and are concerned for womens rights.

I do wonder if these nutjobs actually believe this crap that they say. They have said it so often that the lies start to become truths (inside their heads) maybe.

It is the responsibility of cis allies to let these TERFs know in person, on the day, that the violence they are attempting to perpetrate against one of our trans sisters is not done in our name

This is ridiculous too. Like..the only violence has been FROM transactivists to women. There has never been a case of a feminist attacking a transperson. Infact, when transpeople do get attacked, its almost exclusively by men, or other transpeople.

I can honestly just imagine this. A group of male people in balaclavas screaming that men who punch 60 year old women unprovoked (its the guy who ran from nowhere and punched her thats being prosecuted) should not receive punishment for said actions. And also that men should go to womens prisons. I am sure this will go down well with the general public, if they are not arrested before this for being terrorists or something.

[Oliver_W]

I read on Magdelen Berns' twitter feed that there have been more transwomen murderers than victims of murder. I never chased it up so I don't know how true it is, but there's at least a blog with sources to back it up..

[Vicky.]

I read on Magdelen Berns' twitter feed that there have been more transwomen murderers than victims of murder. I never chased it up so I don't know how true it is, but there's at least a blog with sources to back it up..

Yes, there are more transwomen murderers (in this country) than there are transwomen who have been murdered.

When transactivists spout about how transwomen are murdered all the time, most of the murders are in Brazil, and most of the people murdered were prostitutes also. And we all know how dangerous that job is. Not that that makes people getting murdered any less horrific mind, but these are sad facts of life.

Its quite disingenuous to use doctored statistics in the way the activists do. It puts fear into transpeople too, thinking there is a huge risk of them getting murdered when its simply not true.

[Oliver_W]

Again it's not something I've looked into, but I'm skeptical about the recent study saying that 1/8 transwomen are attacked at their place of work - is that sex work? Obviously sex workers deserve to go unattacked, but it'd be foolish to include it in a study to show how society as a whole hates traps.

[user104658]

I keep seeing this thread title, and thinking it sounds like a new version of Robot Wars, and then thinking I'd totally watch it. Craig Charles has to commentate though. "Oh she's been flipped over! But it's OK she has a sri-mech!"

[Vicky.]

Again it's not something I've looked into, but I'm skeptical about the recent study saying that 1/8 transwomen are attacked at their place of work - is that sex work? Obviously sex workers deserve to go unattacked, but it'd be foolish to include it in a study to show how society as a whole hates traps.
No idea, I have not heard of that one. Will have a look tomorrow if I get time to fill my head full of even more transactivists propaganda :laugh: But I would think that it would be sex work..no other job would have such high assault rate, no matter what the person doing it looked like.

It may be that prostitution is simply included in the stats and Brazil is counted, or only transpeople in Brazil were included fullstop. There are not that many trans people and a lot of them are into sex work (apparently the 'community' pressures some into it, I watched a video Blair White did that was heartbreaking tbh) so if sex work is included I can see how the rates are so high. It may well have been another 'self selecting' study like stonewalls recent one. Which claimed something like 50% of trans people are disabled :/

Women in prostitution

Women involved in prostitution had a mortality rate 12 times the normal rate for women in the same age group. 68% of street workers had experienced physical assault.

www.toynbeehall.org.uk/data/files/Statistics_on_prostitution.pdf

62% reported having been raped in prostitution. 73% reported having experienced physical assault in prostitution. 72% were currently or formerly homeless. 92% stated that they wanted to escape prostitution immediately.

http://www.rapeis.org/activism/prostitution/prostitutionfacts.html


---

So yeah, could definitely distort the stats

[Oliver_W]

Unless verbal abuse is also included as assault, I could certainly see a customer being like "**** you trannny" or something if they were annoyed, or just plain rude

[Vicky.]

Unless verbal abuse is also included as assault, I could certainly see a customer being like "**** you trannny" or something if they were annoyed, or just plain rude

Well quite possibly, given apparently 'misgendering' is 'literal violence' :umm2:

I would have thought that T word was censored on here..

[jaxie]

Interesting posts Oliver and Vicky. I know that Brillo says this a lot and I wonder if she's right when she says we're too PC sometimes nowadays. I wonder isn't going too far the wrong way sometimes so that acceptance of one thing starts to erode the rights of something else.

Like when you mention Lesbians being called names for not wanting to be with trans people. A lesbian is a gay woman, she desires other women. Of course she wouldn't fancy someone who often to the rest of the world looks like a bloke dressed as a woman and who has a penis. You can't just change what you are and who you want to suit someone else's agenda. People don't choose their sexual orientation it's part of them and to claim otherwise is a step backwards and a lot more 'homophobic' than the idea they don't fancy someone who is gender choosing.

[Jamie89]

I think the prostitution stats should be included. If they weren't then it wouldn't be an accurate representation of what trans people face. If for a lot of them, that it is their 'place of work', then why should their experiences be discounted, surely that would be a distortion of what is happening? I worked with a transwoman years ago, she was pre-op and didn't 'pass' (hate saying that but just to make the point), and she had the most horrendous time. She'd be out in the smoking shelter and other workers would stand right in front of her saying the most horrible things, people would walk past her and snigger at her and whisper to each other, it really wasn't subtle at all and she ended up quitting after a couple of weeks. It's no wonder that so many people like that in ordinary working situations can't handle the kind of treatment they sometimes get, trans people are often pushed out of 'ordinary' society and those people's experiences should be counted. They're still part of society, as are the people they come into contact with.

[Oliver_W]

If we just say "transwomen face high workplace violence", it's an incomplete thought.

It's like saying "men have the highest workplace fatalities", or "women and men earn different amounts." To add context, we include because they work more dangerous jobs and because they have different work habits respectively.

Sex workers in general face a lot of abuse, so to include it in stats about transpeople without clarifying makes it look like they face abuse in everyday jobs.

[waterhog]

with all due respect - I got my own wars = poetry wars and the winner is not me :joker:

[Vicky.]

The 1 in 8 figure came from the same self selecting stonewall survey that said that 51% of transpeople are disabled. It should really be taken with a pinch of salt. Just been reading up on it and discovered its something I have already been talking about elsewhere..though we were more concerned about the 51% of self identified trans people that are apparently disabled, as thats WAY above average.

Comes from here

https://www.stonewall.org.uk/lgbt-britain-trans-report

I find it extremely strange how stonewall decided this 1 in 8 stat was important, but totally ignored the very high number of trans people who identify as disabled. Which to me would be much more important and something that really should be investigated.