50 Years since Abortion was made legal

[Cherie]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/26/the-guardian-view-on-50-years-of-legal-abortion-lets-finish-the-work

with all the contraception available to men and women it seems to be used as much as ever, with waiting times for a medical abortion (taking pills to end the pregnancy) taking up to 23 working days (guideline is 10) with waiting times so long some women are tipped into having a surgical procedure

I remember when my sister did her obs and gynae stint she said many women were repeat attenders and used it as a form of contraception, can this ever be right..?

[Niamh.]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/26/the-guardian-view-on-50-years-of-legal-abortion-lets-finish-the-work

with all the contraception available to men and women it seems to be used as much as ever, with waiting times for a medical abortion (taking pills to end the pregnancy) taking up to 23 working days (guideline is 10) with waiting times so long some women are tipped into having a surgical procedure

I remember when my sister did her obs and gynae stint she said many women were repeat attenders and used it as a form of contraception, can this ever be right..?

You're never going to have a system that's not open to abuse/misuse be it with abortion or social welfare or rich people avoiding tax etc etc What's the alternative, have loads more unwanted babies born and not looked after properly?

[Denver]

You're never going to have a system that's not open to abuse/misuse be it with abortion or social welfare or rich people avoiding tax etc etc What's the alternative, have loads more unwanted babies born and not looked after properly?

The alternative is condoms

[y.winter]

:clap2: Time to repeal the 8th as well, it's 2017.

[Cherie]

You're never going to have a system that's not open to abuse/misuse be it with abortion or social welfare or rich people avoiding tax etc etc What's the alternative, have loads more unwanted babies born and not looked after properly?

the pill
morning after pill
condoms

none of these were around 50 years ago or available its like society going backwards in my view

[Cherie]

The number of abortions carried out in England and Wales last year was the highest in five years, driven by growing numbers of women in their 30s and 40s who are terminating a pregnancy, official figures show.
More women are having multiple abortions, according to the annual statistics released by the Department of Health. Almost four in 10 terminations are now carried out on women who have undergone the procedure before. Fifty women had each had eight terminations, the figures revealed.
In all, 185,824 abortions were carried out on women and girls in England and Wales last year. That was 1,253 (0.7%) more than the 184,571 performed in 2014, and the largest number since the 189,931 carried out in 2011.
The figures provide further evidence that abortions are becoming less common among women under 30 and more so among women aged 30 and over.

:umm2:



These figures are from 2014 but that stat about the under 30s is heartening at least

[Niamh.]

the pill
morning after pill
condoms

none of these were around 50 years ago or available its like society going backwards in my view

Yes and what happened 50 years ago, you are Irish Cherie surely you know what happened back then when a girl had an unwanted pregnancy, do you want to go back to those times?

[Niamh.]

:clap2: Time to repeal the 8th as well, it's 2017.

Absolutely

[Cherie]

Yes and what happened 50 years ago, you are Irish Cherie surely you know what happened back then when a girl had an unwanted pregnancy, do you want to go back to those times?

there is no need, times have moved on, contraceptives are freely available to both men and women, there really is no need for abortion to be used as a means of contraception in 2017, it looks like sex education and looking after sexual health is having an impact which is why it is less common in the under 30s, its good to see, I am not advocating that abortion isn't there as an option, it just doesn't need to be used as a contraceptive device

[Niamh.]

The alternative is condoms

Well condoms don't always work and anyway you're always going to have idiots and irresponsible people getting pregnant when they don't want to be, that's what I was asking what was the alternative to. When you have a pregnant person who doesn't want to be pregnant. Force them to carry a baby they don't want for 9 months? No offence but it annoys me even more when men weigh in on this and try to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies

[Niamh.]

there is no need, times have moved on, contraceptives are freely available to both men and women, there really is no need for abortion to be used as a means of contraception in 2017, it looks like sex education and looking after sexual health is having an impact which is why it is less common in the under 30s, its good to see, I am not advocating that abortion isn't there as an option, it just doesn't need to be used as a contraceptive device

I know that but I was saying you are always going to have people who abuse systems regardless, there's not alot you can do about that

[Cherie]

Well condoms don't always work and anyway you're always going to have idiots and irresponsible people getting pregnant when they don't want to be, that's what I was asking what was the alternative to. When you have a pregnant person who doesn't want to be pregnant. Force them to carry a baby they don't want for 9 months? No offence but it annoys me even more when men weigh in on this and try to tell women what they can and cannot do with their own bodies

if you have unprotected sex, you can jog along to the chemist and get the morning after pill, most women are aware of their cycle and even if it is outside the cycle if you don't want a baby why risk it for the sake of buying the morning after pill

[Cherie]

I know that but I was saying you are always going to have people who abuse systems regardless, there's not alot you can do about that

I know but it makes zero sense to put yourself through that if it can be avoided,

[Niamh.]

if you have unprotected sex, you can jog along to the chemist and get the morning after pill, most women are aware of their cycle and even if it is outside the cycle if you don't want a baby why risk it for the sake of buying the morning after pill

You can but people can get pregnant using contraception too, I did. But anyway yes that option is there but sometimes people don't do it again going back to my previous point, sometimes people don't think, are irresponsible etc does that mean it should just be "tough luck, we're going to force you to have the baby now" to someone who doesn't even want a baby? That's not sensible either

[Niamh.]

I know but it makes zero sense to put yourself through that if it can be avoided,

I agree with you but you can't stop there being un-sensible(?) people in the world

[Tom4784]

Thank **** for abortion and contraception.

It's a woman's choice at the end of the day, I don't judge anyone for making what is a difficult choice.

[user104658]

Contraceptives will fail. Not just can, will, they have a percentage failure rate, I think condoms is 97%? That doesnt mean that in your entire life you have a tiny chance of it failing... That's the misconception here... It means that if you have sex with a condom 33 times - on average, one of those times, the contraceptive will fail. That won't always result in a pregnancy of course but there's always the chance.

The pill fails (had it happen), the coil fails (had that happen). Even vasectomies bloody fail. In fact the ONLY certain forms of contraception are abstinence, and full hysterectomy (if there's no uterus, there ain't going to be a pregnancy).

So yeah... Your choices are abstinence for all, unwanted babies for some, or abortion being a thing.

[Vicky.]

I cannot understand anyone who simply choses to have an abortion over and over as contraception. Why on earth would you...when pills are available and abortions are ****ing painful. Totally ignoring the rest of it, they really do hurt a lot and if there is an option to simply take a pill after shagging, one would think that would be used, especially by people who have actually been through an abortion before so they know how horrendous it is. I can only conclude that those going for multiples are mentally ill in some way. Someone can be very unlucky a couple of times...IMO any more than that and its clearly an ongoing problem. Having said that a friend of mine got pregnant whilst on the injection AND her husband was using condoms. So multiple failures.

I also don't see a solution to it. As forcing people to go through pregnancies and giving birth is not right either.

[Niamh.]

Contraceptives will fail. Not just can, will, they have a percentage failure rate, I think condoms is 97%? That doesnt mean that in your entire life you have a tiny chance of it failing... That's the misconception here... It means that if you have sex with a condom 33 times - on average, one of those times, the contraceptive will fail. That won't always result in a pregnancy of course but there's always the chance.

The pill fails (had it happen), the coil fails (had that happen). Even vasectomies bloody fail. In fact the ONLY certain forms of contraception are abstinence, and full hysterectomy (if there's no uterus, there ain't going to be a pregnancy).

So yeah... Your choices are abstinence for all, unwanted babies for some, or abortion being a thing.

I got pregnant on the arm implant one which is supposed to be 99% or something, that implant stops your period so i didn't even know I was pregnant till I was 17 weeks. I remember ringing my Doctor and asking her, with that implant would you start getting pregnancy symptoms and she said like what? and I was like morning sickness, umm getting fat..... she said "no, how did that happen?" :laugh:

On a personal level I don't think I'd ever have an abortion but that's my choice, I would never try and tell another woman what they can and cannot do with their own bodies

[Vicky.]

Ugh I am having issues with the implant now actually. Its always stopped my periods but they started again recently so I don't trust it anymore and am so paranoid that its not working properly, but my doctors are having none of it. They keep telling me to stop being silly and that its perfectly fine for another year. But, how can they possibly know that? Its not them who could be left pregnant when they can't afford, nor do they want, another kid. They are refusing to replace it, or to remove it and let me use something else (already using condoms)

Going to go private and have it removed and go on the injection instead. But many women in my situation would just listen to the doctors about it...

They also reckon I am too young to be sterylised. As apparently I may change my mind. As clearly, they know my mind better than I do :rolleyes:

[Niamh.]

Ugh I am having issues with the implant now actually. Its always stopped my periods but they started again recently so I don't trust it anymore and am so paranoid that its not working properly, but my doctors are having none of it. They keep telling me to stop being silly and that its perfectly fine for another year. But, how can they possibly know that? Its not them who could be left pregnant when they can't afford, nor do they want, another kid. They are refusing to replace it, or to remove it and let me use something else (already using condoms)

Going to go private and have it removed and go on the injection instead. But many women in my situation would just listen to the doctors about it...

They also reckon I am too young to be sterylised. As apparently I may change my mind. As clearly, they know my mind better than I do :rolleyes:

Would Gav not get the snip instead that's a much more simple procedure

[Vicky.]

Would Gav not get the snip instead that's a much more simple procedure

Hes scared of it, as a friend had issues where it caused him a lot of pain for a long time. Also he wouldn't mind having an other kid, so I think it should be on me to ensure that I definitely will not given its me who is so sure I want no more :laugh:

Also, I don't really trust vasectomies. I know two men who had them and then still got people pregnant afterwards :S Where I assume, the woman getting done is more effective

[Niamh.]

Hes scared of it, as a friend had issues where it caused him a lot of pain for a long time. Also he wouldn't mind having an other kid, so I think it should be on me to ensure that I definitely will not given its me who is so sure I want no more :laugh:

Also, I don't really trust vasectomies. I know two men who had them and then still got people pregnant afterwards :S Where I assume, the woman getting done is more effective

I think it's pretty rare for vasectomies to fail, are they sure it's their babies? :hehe:

[Vicky.]

I think it's pretty rare for vasectomies to fail, are they sure it's their babies? :hehe:

Well one of these people was my dad :laugh: Fairly sure my brother is my actual brother, never had a dna test done like.

The other actually did actually get a DNA test done and the poor woman...got grief from all angles for 'cheating'. They should have just left it a couple of years though as the kids the double of him now so a test was not needed :D

[Vicky.]

I think its people not following the 'rules' right that causes failures though, rather than the procedure itself. Like, you aren't meant to have sex for 6 weeks or something and apparently are meant to wank a lot in the meantime. Not sure how true the past bit is but I heard that. I guess if enough wanking isn't done, sperm could still be there or something :S

Edit.

Vasectomy is one of the most effective forms of birth control. In the first year after vasectomy, only 15 to 20 of every 10,000 couples will experience a pregnancy. ... Men still need to use other birth control until the remaining sperm are cleared out of the semen. This takes 15 to 20 ejaculations, or about 3 months.

[Niamh.]

Well one of these people was my dad :laugh: Fairly sure my brother is my actual brother, never had a dna test done like.

The other actually did actually get a DNA test done and the poor woman...got grief from all angles for 'cheating'. They should have just left it a couple of years though as the kids the double of him now so a test was not needed :D

https://m.popkey.co/71482d/1Z4dL.gif

[user104658]

I think it's pretty rare for vasectomies to fail, are they sure it's their babies? :hehe:Well I thought so too until we had a pregnancy scare this last fortnight and I looked it up! Apparently failures in the first year are 1%, which is low odds... But given that there are 10,000 done per year that's still 1000 failures. So it's not THAT rare :umm2:. I think the risk of failure drops dramatically after the first year if there's still zero sperms count at that point. Most common reason for failure is basically that things are still healing and scar tissue still resolving and there's a chance of "channels" developing where sperms can get through, but after a year things are unlikely to change.

It was just a scare, no pregnancy after all. However on topic... If the very unlikely was to happen, we would definitely have to accept abortion as our option. I'm not 100% comfortable with abortion, I don't think it's "nothing" or routine like some people seem to, but our ciscumstances basically mean that another child would be a disaster. Not just hard, but permanently life altering in not good ways.

[Cherie]

Contraceptives will fail. Not just can, will, they have a percentage failure rate, I think condoms is 97%? That doesnt mean that in your entire life you have a tiny chance of it failing... That's the misconception here... It means that if you have sex with a condom 33 times - on average, one of those times, the contraceptive will fail. That won't always result in a pregnancy of course but there's always the chance.

The pill fails (had it happen), the coil fails (had that happen). Even vasectomies bloody fail. In fact the ONLY certain forms of contraception are abstinence, and full hysterectomy (if there's no uterus, there ain't going to be a pregnancy).

So yeah... Your choices are abstinence for all, unwanted babies for some, or abortion being a thing.


Again you missed my point, abortion in the case of failure of contraception is fine who said it wasn't?

[user104658]

Again you missed my point, abortion in the case of failure of contraception is fine who said it wasn't?Well, of course it's immoral for people to use abortion AS contraception, but there's not a huge amount that can be done about it? How can you possibly "prove" the reason for abortion, without doing an alarming amount of digging into the person's private life? You sort of just have to accept that it's a necessary thing to have available, and as with anything, immoral people will abuse what's available at times.

[Cherie]

Well, of course it's immoral for people to use abortion AS contraception, but there's not a huge amount that can be done about it? How can you possibly "prove" the reason for abortion, without doing an alarming amount of digging into the person's private life? You sort of just have to accept that it's a necessary thing to have available, and as with anything, immoral people will abuse what's available at times.

I just find it sad that people resort to this when there are so many other easier less invasive methods, it's selfish to the core, at least it is looking like education on sexual health is getting through and the under 30s are getting the message, hope that continues

[Vicky.]

I just find it sad that people resort to this when there are so many other easier less invasive methods, it's selfish to the core, at least it is looking like education on sexual health is getting through and the under 30s are getting the message, hope that continues

Hmm. I would actually say that its kind of...self-hating...to resort to abortions rather than MUCH easier and less painful methods of contraception tbh. Genuinely cannot understand people who would chose to go through multiple abortions.

[DemolitionRed]

https://m.popkey.co/71482d/1Z4dL.gif

OMG. I laughed so much when I saw Vicky's answer. Its so unlike you to put your foot in it :laugh2:

[user104658]

I just find it sad that people resort to this when there are so many other easier less invasive methods, it's selfish to the core, at least it is looking like education on sexual health is getting through and the under 30s are getting the message, hope that continues

Yeah, I don't get why anyone would actually CHOOSE multiple abortions over other contraceptive methods.

To be honest though, the rhetoric around contraception needs to become more truthful or young people quickly realise that it's BS. Other methods are NOT always that simple, basically. Condoms are ****. I mean yeah, I get it, the whole "Well not as **** as dun dun deeerrrr UNWANTED PREGNANCY" thing, and that's true enough, but why are we still peddling the lie that it "feels just the same"? It doesn't feel the same, or anything even close to the same, for either men or women :think:. Maybe a tiny few don't think there's a difference but it's definitely a minority... and you can tell people that it's "just the same" all day long but as soon as they've experienced with and without, they're going to know that it... well... isn't? Sadly it's also the only thing that offers any real STI protection but I personally find them completely awful. To the extent that if I was a single having sex with multiple people... I actually just wouldn't at all. I wouldn't want to risk STI's and I'd pretty much rather not have sex at all than use condoms :shrug:.

Then there's the pill. Also touted as "simple" but there are a few issues there, too. For some women it causes huge hormonal problems. And even for those who don't, the basic fact is, not that many people are brilliant at taking them properly even with the best of intentions. There are IUD's but those are an uncomfortable procedure and can be uncomfortable afterwards, and can have a myriad of complications that result in them needing to be removed. Then at the "nuclear option" end of the scale there's vasectomy, which again, the "official information" isn't entirely truthful. It's not really a small, relatively pain free procedure at all... it's a pretty painful procedure, followed by 3/4 days of being bed/couch ridden and then at least a few more weeks of general discomfort. And the procedure for women is more invasive surgery.

On top of that... no method is foolproof.

It would be great if there was a simple answer but thus far there just isn't, and I guess maybe there never will be. "Life finds a way" and all that... our bodies WANT to reproduce, stopping them from doing so is always going to be challenging.