Sexism in the establishment

[Kizzy]

Does the acceptance of sexism within the establishment filter down into society.is this why crimes against women such as rape and domestic violence are not treated with the gravitas they deserve?

There has for years been a cover up in the highest echelons of power enabling men to mistreat female employees and escape justice.

Is the 'old boys' network dead?

' Theresa May will sack Cabinet ministers if they are proven to be sex pests, the Telegraph understands, as a rapidly growing list of MPs accused of harassment circulated in Westminster.

The Prime Minister wrote to Commons Speaker John Bercow yesterday demanding tough new rules to govern MPs’ behaviour, saying the problem “cannot be tolerated any longer”.

It was claimed Conservative party staff have complied a list of 36 current Tory MPs against whom allegations of inappropriate behaviour have been made, including having affairs with junior colleagues, being "handsy" with women and using prostitutes.

Mrs May also asked the Cabinet Office to investigate the conduct of international trade minister Mark Garnier, who admitted calling his secretary “sugar t**s” and sending her to buy sex toys for him.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/29/theresa-may-will-sack-cabinet-ministers-found-sex-pests-13-mps/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/westminster-sexual-assault-allegations-harassment-latest-updates-tory-aide-drink-spike-commons-bar-a8031311.html

[Brillopad]

Does the acceptance of sexism within the establishment filter down into society.is this why crimes against women such as rape and domestic violence are not treated with the gravitas they deserve?

There has for years been a cover up in the highest echelons of power enabling men to mistreat female employees and escape justice.

Is the 'old boys' network dead?

' Theresa May will sack Cabinet ministers if they are proven to be sex pests, the Telegraph understands, as a rapidly growing list of MPs accused of harassment circulated in Westminster.

The Prime Minister wrote to Commons Speaker John Bercow yesterday demanding tough new rules to govern MPs’ behaviour, saying the problem “cannot be tolerated any longer”.

It was claimed Conservative party staff have complied a list of 36 current Tory MPs against whom allegations of inappropriate behaviour have been made, including having affairs with junior colleagues, being "handsy" with women and using prostitutes.

Mrs May also asked the Cabinet Office to investigate the conduct of international trade minister Mark Garnier, who admitted calling his secretary “sugar t**s” and sending her to buy sex toys for him.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/29/theresa-may-will-sack-cabinet-ministers-found-sex-pests-13-mps/

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/westminster-sexual-assault-allegations-harassment-latest-updates-tory-aide-drink-spike-commons-bar-a8031311.html

Why do you only express enough interest in sexist attitudes when it involves the Tory government. You seem quite happy to brush aside or conveniently ignore appalling sexist attitudes by minority groups but suddenly get all fired up when it involves the Tories.

Sounds more like a Political interest and an attempt to attack May and her government than a genuine concern regarding sexist attitudes. Serious as all sexism is it seems to me that the sexism you are talking about doesn’t have as severe an impact on womens’ lives as such attitudes from certain religious groups do.

[Kizzy]

It has only come to light now... I had no part in that I asked for the opinions of others not for my opinion to be analysed as usual.
If you don't wish to comment on the thread and it's content don't.

[smudgie]

Not sure about the affairs part of it.
If consenting adults are of legal age then it is up to them if they have affairs or not, the age difference shouldn't be an issue.

[Marsh.]

Yeah, I agree with smudgie that I don't see how "affairs" are included, as they are surely willingly partaken in by consenting adults. :shrug:

Even if it was against a policy or rule for people to engage in personal relationships with colleagues, it still isn't harassment.

[Parmy]

Makes you laugh when some poor old sod is getting more news segments for daring to touch a womans knee while talking to her 10 odd years ago, than bex bailys rape at a labour conference and the threats of losing her job by the senior labour member she turned to if she reported it is.

[user104658]

"Look at all these threads about race, no one cares about sexism or attacks on women!"

*Someone makes a thread about women being harassed in the workplace*

"No no no, that's the wrong KIND of thread about women, it has to be about them being attacked by Evil Muslims blehhh or Evil Labour. I can't believe you don't care about attacks on women by minorities and labour members, disgusting."

[Crimson Dynamo]

Id like the perspective of The Truth here

but I have been denied that right by a feminatzi misogynistic conspiracy that has pervaded Tibb like a spiders web in honey

in Honey I tells ya

:fist::fist::fist:

[user104658]

Id like the perspective of The Truth here

but I have been denied that right by a feminatzi misogynistic conspiracy that has pervaded Tibb like a spiders web in honey

in Honey I tells ya

:fist::fist::fist:

Men commit suicide a lot and it's because of things like this! It's also why they don't get custody of their children in 95% of cases! Men! Muscles!

He's here in spirit.

[Crimson Dynamo]

:fan:

[Kazanne]

Makes you laugh when some poor old sod is getting more news segments for daring to touch a womans knee while talking to her 10 odd years ago, than bex bailys rape at a labour conference and the threats of losing her job by the senior labour member she turned to if she reported it is.

In a nutshell Parmy,:smug:That says all that is wrong with society.

[Kazanne]

Bloody hell if I reported everytime a bloke put his arm around me or touched me,I would be constantly perched in a police station not forgetting all the sexual banter, as adults surely we can understand the difference between joking and real threats a lot of this is just playful and harmless,they need to concentrate on the bigger picture and the actual victims who HAVE been traumatised (like the lady who was actually raped)by real sexual harrassment,same with Hollywood,some of these people were happy to take the jobs made available by these 'sexual fiends'

[user104658]

In a nutshell Parmy,:smug:That says all that is wrong with society.Yes. That. That is "all" that is wrong with society. I'm glad to see that someone has their finger on the pulse.

[user104658]

Bloody hell if I reported everytime a bloke put his arm around me or touched me,I would be constantly perched in a police station not forgetting all the sexual banter, as adults surely we can understand the difference between joking and real threats'

Its not just about threats, though, and you're sort of highlighting the problem yourself? That people constantly put their arm round you or touch you uninvited. And I assume we're not talking about friends / family here as that's not what any of this is about... No one is saying friends can't put their arm round someone.

But anyway; you're saying that it happens a lot, and it doesn't bother you. Which is fine, everyone is different. But some people are not comfortable at all being touched by strangers or having an arm put round them? I mean... I personally don't like it at all, and I'm a 6'2 200lb+ man. It's not about feeling "threatened" - I just plain don't like it - and people should have enough respect for others to not feel entitled to start touching strangers in a familiar way without permission.

There are certain guys out there who believe that they are entitled to, that is is "normal" to, put their arm around whoever they want / touch a leg / whatever... But it really isn't?

[Kazanne]

Yes. That. That is "all" that is wrong with society. I'm glad to see that someone has their finger on the pulse.

I was reffering to Parmys post about the lack of news about something far more important and sinister than someone touching a leg.Society needs to wake up and deal with the important things in life.obviously there are plenty of other things wrong in the world,I was answering what Parmy touched on.

[Parmy]

Its not just about threats, though, and you're sort of highlighting the problem yourself? That people constantly put their arm round you or touch you uninvited. And I assume we're not talking about friends / family here as that's not what any of this is about... No one is saying friends can't put their arm round someone.

But anyway; you're saying that it happens a lot, and it doesn't bother you. Which is fine, everyone is different. But some people are not comfortable at all being touched by strangers or having an arm put round them? I mean... I personally don't like it at all, and I'm a 6'2 200lb+ man. It's not about feeling "threatened" - I just plain don't like it - and people should have enough respect for others to not feel entitled to start touching strangers in a familiar way without permission.

There are certain guys out there who believe that they are entitled to, that is is "normal" to, put their arm around whoever they want / touch a leg / whatever... But it really isn't?

But are fellow employees strangers?

[Kazanne]

Its not just about threats, though, and you're sort of highlighting the problem yourself? That people constantly put their arm round you or touch you uninvited. And I assume we're not talking about friends / family here as that's not what any of this is about... No one is saying friends can't put their arm round someone.

But anyway; you're saying that it happens a lot, and it doesn't bother you. Which is fine, everyone is different. But some people are not comfortable at all being touched by strangers or having an arm put round them? I mean... I personally don't like it at all, and I'm a 6'2 200lb+ man. It's not about feeling "threatened" - I just plain don't like it - and people should have enough respect for others to not feel entitled to start touching strangers in a familiar way without permission.

There are certain guys out there who believe that they are entitled to, that is is "normal" to, put their arm around whoever they want / touch a leg / whatever... But it really isn't?

There are also women who do this?

[Parmy]

I was reffering to Parmys post about the lack of news about something far more important and sinister than someone touching a leg.Society needs to wake up and deal with the important things in life.obviously there are plenty of other things wrong in the world,I was answering what Parmy touched on.

If i get banned for touching:fist:

[Kazanne]

If i get banned for touching:fist:

:joker: I was going to add how very dare you,but thought,better not :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Id like to see what evidence is brought forward

[Parmy]

It is a strange one though cause obviously if a stranger walks up and puts an arm round you your going to worry as a woman and check your wallet as a man.

But i see my work colleagues as mates, we socialise and laugh and joke together. Maybe im lucky, but if i put my arm round one of the girls they would know i was reasuring them.

[Parmy]

Id like to see what evidence is brought forward

Bbc news did pick up on that last night on the ten o clock..something about tm seeing fresh evidence.

Like you suspect though, there is nothing like a cabinet reshuffle to grab the headlines.:hee:

[DemolitionRed]

Why do you only express enough interest in sexist attitudes when it involves the Tory government. You seem quite happy to brush aside or conveniently ignore appalling sexist attitudes by minority groups but suddenly get all fired up when it involves the Tories.

Sounds more like a Political interest and an attempt to attack May and her government than a genuine concern regarding sexist attitudes. Serious as all sexism is it seems to me that the sexism you are talking about doesn’t have as severe an impact on womens’ lives as such attitudes from certain religious groups do.

It’s a culture in the house and elsewhere Brillo but because its in the house it can’t and shouldn’t be trivialized. I’m sure this goes on across all parties but those parties aren’t in power, the Tories are. I think May is doing her damage limitation by having these accusations properly aired and dealt with. Unfortunately, though, I think the only thing that will be remembered is the ‘sex toy’ scandal.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its all about charm and looks. If an attractive charming colleague touches your leg or puts arm around its ok , if the creepy guy with oily hair does it its not

[user104658]

But are fellow employees strangers?No but they're also not necessarily "friends", and I think most people have a good sense of who they have an actual friendship with, and who they only know in a work capacity.

Its pretty much general knowledge that it's not appropriate to be over-familiar with work colleagues, especially subordinates, who are not also an out-of-work friend surely? And it's that way for a good reason, e.g. People will play along or pretend not to be uncomfortable with something if it's a superior, out of fear of losing their job or being otherwise penalised in some way (e.g. Being given a tonne of extra work, or all of the crappy menial tasks) which does also happen.

I have zero sympathy for anyone who breaks this "rule"... Like I said, it's standard workplace etiquette? If they choose to ignore it and lose their job... That's their own choice? If they start claiming that they "didn't know it was inappropriate" then they should probably lose their job anyway, because they are stupid, incompetent, and not suitable to be in charge of employees.

[Kazanne]

It is a strange one though cause obviously if a stranger walks up and puts an arm round you your going to worry as a woman and check your wallet as a man.

But i see my work colleagues as mates, we socialise and laugh and joke together. Maybe im lucky, but if i put my arm round one of the girls they would know i was reasuring them.

Yes,that is how I feel about this, where do we draw a line ? I mean things said on here in jest sometimes could be offensive to some ?

[user104658]

[/B]

There are also women who do this?That's true and I've talked about that in another thread, I actually sometimes think women are worse (in terms of how frequently it happens) for random arse-groping in bars etc. and I think that's probably because it's seen as more acceptable.

But my opinion there is that it isn't really acceptable for men OR women to be doing it... Not that it should be fine for men to do it because women do it too.

[Parmy]

No but they're also not necessarily "friends", and I think most people have a good sense of who they have an actual friendship with, and who they only know in a work capacity.

Its pretty much general knowledge that it's not appropriate to be over-familiar with work colleagues, especially subordinates, who are not also an out-of-work friend surely? And it's that way for a good reason, e.g. People will play along or pretend not to be uncomfortable with something if it's a superior, out of fear of losing their job or being otherwise penalised in some way (e.g. Being given a tonne of extra work, or all of the crappy menial tasks) which does also happen.

I have zero sympathy for anyone who breaks this "rule"... Like I said, it's standard workplace etiquette? If they choose to ignore it and lose their job... That's their own choice? If they start claiming that they "didn't know it was inappropriate" then they should probably lose their job anyway, because they are stupid, incompetent, and not suitable to be in charge of employees.

The news and the pm are making it all about the abuse of power and i think your examples here are as well..no harm in that, but yet again it is making it all less about the victim to an extent..it is probably the correct way to deal with it but we cant let it jumble up with the serious incidents which will obviously come to light as the victims will end up being just another statistic.

[user104658]

Yes,that is how I feel about this, where do we draw a line ? I mean things said on here in jest sometimes could be offensive to some ?We draw the line with common sense surely? Everyone knows who their friends are... Don't they?? Parm knows it would be fine with people he works with because he knows them and knows that they have a friendly relationship as well as a working one.

Its not like "Oh it should just be fine for everyone to touch everyone else because no one knows who their friends are".

I mean... And I'm assuming here... But I doubt that if a new girl started and got upset on her first day, Parm would run over and give her a big ol' hug :think:. I hope not, anyway.

[Parmy]

Yes,that is how I feel about this, where do we draw a line ? I mean things said on here in jest sometimes could be offensive to some ?

:shrug:

I wish i hadnt lost my job as a male stripper, imagine the compensation:facepalm:

[waterhog]

being discussed now 1040am wrightstuff ch5 ?

[Parmy]

We draw the line with common sense surely? Everyone knows who their friends are... Don't they?? Parm knows it would be fine with people he works with because he knows them and knows that they have a friendly relationship as well as a working one.

Its not like "Oh it should just be fine for everyone to touch everyone else because no one knows who their friends are".

I mean... And I'm assuming here... But I doubt that if a new girl started and got upset on her first day, Parm would run over and give her a big ol' hug :think:. I hope not, anyway.

Depends on what upset her, if she had just had a call about a family death then i probably would. Any other reason then no...

[Parmy]

being discussed now 1040am wrightstuff ch5 ?

Just started watching....looks like women turning on women.:joker:

[Withano]

"Look at all these threads about race, no one cares about sexism or attacks on women!"

*Someone makes a thread about women being harassed in the workplace*

"No no no, that's the wrong KIND of thread about women, it has to be about them being attacked by Evil Muslims blehhh or Evil Labour. I can't believe you don't care about attacks on women by minorities and labour members, disgusting."

:joker:

[Kizzy]

I am shocked to be honest, I would have thought the abuses of position wouldn't have been downplayed to this extent, this if anything is a snapshot of the double standard within 'society'.

[Alf]

I am shocked to be honest, I would have thought the abuses of position wouldn't have been downplayed to this extent, this if anything is a snapshot of the double standard within 'society'.I know what you mean. It's like that thread on here of the New York attack this week where 8 people were murdered, not even 2 full pages of comments. Compare that to the thread earlier in the year with the Charlottesville one where there was 1 victim, that thread went on for pages with anger.

[Cherie]

I don't think it is being downplayed, there is just very little information to go on Micheal Fallon stood down for touching someone knee and lewd comment apparently? I find that hard to believe when someone who raped a female activist may still be in Westminster and the persons or persons who told her not to report it are probably also there :umm2:

[Cherie]

Sir Michael Fallon was forced to quit after being accused of making lewd comments to Andrea Leadsom, it has been reported,*
The shamed former Defence Secretary resigned from his post on Wednesday, admitting that his behaviour had “fallen short” in the past.*
The Sun reports he told Leader of the House of Commons Leadsom, who complained of cold hands: “I know where you can put them to warm them up.”*


:joker:

I know it the Sun, and probably false but if that is the level we are talking here and if a woman can't bat off that kind of comment with ease in any situation I give up

[Oliver_W]

That sort of thing being classed as anything beyond "stupid comments" trivializes actual harassment, and makes me doubt the seriousness of non-detailed claims.

[Cherie]

That sort of thing being classed as anything beyond "stupid comments" trivializes actual harassment, and makes me doubt the seriousness of non-detailed claims.

Yes it does, I really can't understand why the Micheal Fallon's case is taking precedence over Bex Bailey if it really was just about knee touching and inappropriate but ultimately not particularly intimidating suggestiveness

[Oliver_W]

Yes it does, I really can't understand why the Micheal Fallon's case is taking precedence over Bex Bailey if it really was just about knee touching and inappropriate but ultimately not particularly intimidating suggestiveness

If I was given to conspiracies, I'd say it's because one involves the left, and one the right.

[user104658]

If I was given to conspiracies, I'd say it's because one involves the left, and one the right.Except that they both involve the center?

[Cherie]

I have just been informed that :creep: has has to step down from it's job as a smilie on TiBB due to overt suggestiveness

anyone who has used this smilie in any context needs to be very afraid :worry:

:eyes: Marsh

[user104658]

I heard whispers that there have been historic sexual harassment allegations made against LT for some PMs he sent 3 or 4 years ago :worry:.

It's not fair, he's changed I tells ya, it was just a different time!

[waterhog]

I have just been informed that :creep: has has to step down from it's job as a smilie on TiBB due to overt suggestiveness

anyone who has used this smilie in any context needs to be very afraid :worry:

:eyes: Marsh

I resigned today :nono:

[Brillopad]

I know what you mean. It's like that thread on here of the New York attack this week where 8 people were murdered, not even 2 full pages of comments. Compare that to the thread earlier in the year with the Charlottesville one where there was 1 victim, that thread went on for pages with anger.

Spot on Alf. Notice how there were no responses to that obvious anomaly.

[Marsh.]

I have just been informed that :creep: has has to step down from it's job as a smilie on TiBB due to overt suggestiveness

anyone who has used this smilie in any context needs to be very afraid :worry:

:eyes: Marsh
:smug:



I mean :oh:

[Marsh.]

But are fellow employees strangers?
Not strangers but not necessarily always people you can have an "intimate" relationship with. I say intimate because it's crossing personal boundaries.

I've worked with a close friend in the past so were pretty comfortable with a hand on the shoulder or whatever but someone who is purely a colleague you wouldn't always be familiar on a personal level and Im.not comfortable with people I only know from work invading my personal space.

[Marsh.]

I mean things said on here in jest sometimes could be offensive to some ?

And doesn't my PM inbox KNOW IT!

[Niamh.]

Spot on Alf. Notice how there were no responses to that obvious anomaly.

Probably because everyone actually agrees ISIS are bad?

[Cherie]

I heard whispers that there have been historic sexual harassment allegations made against LT for some PMs he sent 3 or 4 years ago :worry:.

It's not fair, he's changed I tells ya, it was just a different time!

15 years ago, hardly the dark ages in fact the 80s was when PC became popular, the journalist invovled told him she would punch him in the face if he did it again and was amused, the Andrea Ledsom incident was 2 years ago, I would have expected her to put the smutty old goat in his place, she doesn't come across as a wilting violet

[user104658]

Probably because everyone actually agrees ISIS are bad?Terror related threads get fewer and fewer responses because there's nothing to say about it that hasn't been said 20 times already in other threads. The very sad reality is that it's just become very common... And we all know each other's thoughts on it (everyone agrees terrorism is awful, various groups disagree on how to tackle it). There's just nothing to debate or discuss.

[Kizzy]

Seeing as this has gone all right v left for some reason I'll put this out there why is it only Corbyn supporting MPs implicated?

[Cherie]

Seeing as this has gone all right v left for some reason I'll put this out there why is it only Corbyn supporting MPs implicated?

2 posts about left and right? and you decided to move the goalposts ...shameful

[Kizzy]

2 posts about left and right? and you decided to move the goalposts ...shameful

What's 'shameful'? It's the topic of the thread Cherie... Are you only here to dissect my views too, that isn't having a 'debate' is it?

What are your thoughts?

[Cherie]

What's 'shameful'? It's the topic of the thread Cherie... Are you only here to dissect my views too, that isn't having a 'debate' is it?

What are your thoughts?

I have already posted my thoughts, I'm not buying into your theory that it's a way to smear Corbyn

[Kizzy]

I have already posted my thoughts, I'm not buying into your theory that it's a way to smear Corbyn

Nobody is forcing you to, however watching the news yesterday that is unfortunately how it appeared to me.
I fail to see how my opinion is shameful.

[Cherie]

Nobody is forcing you to, however watching the news yesterday that is unfortunately how it appeared to me.
I fail to see how my opinion is shameful.

Because you seem to have forgotton that someone is alleging rape and subsequent cover up, and yet all the headlines are about some carry on style smutty comments made by an old goat! Why are we accepting this, it's incredible to me

[Kizzy]

Because you seem to have forgotton that someone is alleging rape and subsequent cover up, and yet all the headlines are about some carry on style smutty comments made by an old goat! Why are we accepting this, it's incredible to me

Are you serious, or simply unaware of the depth and scale of the accusations leveled at the government involving establishment figures past and present, or of questions posed to May on several occasions by MP Lisa Nandy?

It is by no means these two incidents alone that are the crux of the issue, also can I add that the young activist involved in the rape case came forward after two years and reported her attack to them and not taken further meaning neither the whips nor Corbyn were informed. She in fact praises Corbyn for his actions once made aware.

That is dramatically different to having a 'dirty dossier' on MPs of their misdemeanors with which to ensure they toe the party line, as well as an MP asking 3 times the then home secretary now PM to look into sexual abuse by other MPs.
Try to maintain some perspective, look beyond the tabloid headlines perhaps.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41824720/bex-bailey-i-was-raped-at-a-labour-party-event-in-2011

http://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2014-07-07/debates/14070736000001/ChildAbuse#contribution-14070736000070

[Cherie]

Are you serious, or simply unaware of the depth and scale of the accusations leveled at the government involving establishment figures past and present, or of questions posed to May on several occasions by MP Lisa Nandy?

It is by no means these two incidents alone that are the crux of the issue, also can I add that the young activist involved in the rape case came forward after two years and reported her attack to them and not taken further meaning neither the whips nor Corbyn were informed. She in fact praises Corbyn for his actions once made aware.

That is dramatically different to having a 'dirty dossier' on MPs of their misdemeanors with which to ensure they toe the party line, as well as an MP asking 3 times the then home secretary now PM to look into sexual abuse by other MPs.
Try to maintain some perspective, look beyond the tabloid headlines perhaps.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-41824720/bex-bailey-i-was-raped-at-a-labour-party-event-in-2011

http://hansard.parliament.uk/Commons/2014-07-07/debates/14070736000001/ChildAbuse#contribution-14070736000070



I think the question here is are you for real! I gave those two examples, it's disingenous of you to suggest I think these are the only two cases when new claims against MPs are being made every day, and given how much people love to abuse power! do you think I have lived under rock for the past 25 years! sorry to say but none if the main parties we going to come out if this looking good, just glad I don't blindly follow any of them

[Kizzy]

I think the question here is are you for real! I gave those two examples, it's disingenous of you to suggest I think these are the only two cases when new claims against MPs are being made every day, and given how much people love to abuse power! do you think I have lived under rock for the past 25 years! sorry to say but none if the main parties we going to come out if this looking good, just glad I don't blindly follow any of them

Are you disingenuously suggesting I do?

The fact is you failed to realise the two cases you detailed are in no way comparable, they are both issues which need addressing clearly but one cannot be held up as a failing due to the powers that be were not aware, and the other is being used to downplay the seriousness of the situation now being faced within this 'dirty dossier'
Does nobody else find it suspicious that the owner and knower of all secrets Gavin Williamson now has the defence secretary job?....