Is It Racist To Dress As A Zulu 2: Electric Boogaloo

[user104658]

Let's face it, a lot of people are going to consider this to be racist and I think most reasonable people will know that, even if they don't necessarily agree. With that in mind, should people be more culturally sensitive when arranging events like this?

[Brillopad]

Let's face it, a lot of people are going to consider this to be racist and I think most reasonable people will know that, even if they don't necessarily agree. With that in mind, should people be more culturally sensitive when arranging events like this?

Why, if they don’t agree. It just sounds like emotional blackmail to me. - if you don’t then you are ‘an unreasonable person’. Doesn’t sound the least bit unbiased.

[user104658]

I just mean that even people who don't think it IS unacceptable will know that some people will find it unacceptable... Even if you find that stance unreasonable. I'm not sure anyone could honestly say "I had no idea anyone would be bothered!" surely.

So then, I guess, the real debate is... In what circumstances is it appropriate to exercise some sensitivity surrounding race issues - even if you personally believe it to be over the top - and when is it appropriate to try to push the boundaries? And in the latter case, where we do go ahead with these things where there is no mocking intent and also, I suppose, a good reason for doing it (e.g. As a celebration of culture, as has been argued for this) then how do we open constructive dialogue so that everyone understands the context and doesn't jump to conclusions about intent? That must be an important part of sorting through all of this.

[chuff me dizzy]

I would hate to live in a sterile world where everyone was brainwashed into thinking the same, and no one having an opinion

[user104658]

I would hate to live in a sterile world where everyone was brainwashed into thinking the same, and no one having an opinionSo would I, and so would most people I think, but then isn't it about figuring out how people who do have very different opinions can share and discuss those opinions and reach a compromise or, at least, make sure that those opinions are properly understood so that observers don't come to the wrong conclusion?

Being open minded and taking the time to try to understand a situation is important too, of course; people should try not to be reactionary, and make sure they do fully understand context before assuming intent.

[Marsh.]

It's extremely racist and bigoted.

[chuff me dizzy]

So would I, and so would most people I think, but then isn't it about figuring out how people who do have very different opinions can share and discuss those opinions and reach a compromise or, at least, make sure that those opinions are properly understood so that observers don't come to the wrong conclusion?

Being open minded and taking the time to try to understand a situation is important too, of course; people should try not to be reactionary, and make sure they do fully understand context before assuming intent.

But we are talking about a fancy dress outfit, so are you saying ALL fancy dress outfits should be banned,as Im sure everyone of them will upset some little person with no fun or imagination

[Marsh.]

But we are talking about a fancy dress outfit, so are you saying ALL fancy dress outfits should be banned,as Im sure everyone of them will upset some little person with no fun or imagination
Zulu is fancy dress?

[chuff me dizzy]

http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/disney-is-dressing-up-as-moana-cultural-appropriation

[Marsh.]

http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/disney-is-dressing-up-as-moana-cultural-appropriation
Does dressing as Moana involve blackface?

[user104658]

But we are talking about a fancy dress outfit, so are you saying ALL fancy dress outfits should be banned,as Im sure everyone of them will upset some little person with no fun or imaginationI didn't say that anything should be banned, I asked the question of whether there might be a way for people to engage in constructive dialogue so that context is understood, instead of immediately becoming incensed or reactionary. Then maybe more costumes would be considered acceptable? Obviously while it feels combative, it's going to feel mocking.

[Brillopad]

It's extremely racist and bigoted.

Are you a Zulu? If not - who made you judge and jury! :bored:

[user104658]

Is there anyone that actually does want to discuss the topic instead of retreading the same old ground?

[Brillopad]

Is there anyone that actually does want to discuss the topic instead of retreading the same old ground?

No I don’t. Zulus and their descendants would probably differ themselves in their opinions as to whether it was offensive or not - so who decides who is right. Others should do what they feel is okay as long as they are not intending to offend.

If a number of affected people expressed grave concerns maybe people would decide against - but I don’t think it is for whites to speak on the behalf of others - some may consider that patronising.

[chuff me dizzy]

Where does it all end ? No French maid outfits? No berets and garlic ? No hula grass skirts ....The list is endless

[user104658]

If a number of affected people expressed grave concerns maybe people would decide against - but I don’t think it is for whites to speak on the behalf of others - some may consider that patronising.

I suppose that's reasonable enough... So long as, I guess, so long as people would be genuinely willing to listen if a significant number of people who are directly impacted express that they don't like it. I think that's all we can really do; actually listen to people. If most black people find white people "blacking up" offensive, then we sort of have to accept that it is offensive?

I guess the only direct comparison I can make pertains to the Moana example; because there is also "Brave", which is absolutely full of "Scottish Stereotypes", and yet I doubt there are many (if any?) Scottish people who find the film offensive or who would have a problem with any child from any country dressing up as the girl from that film. From what I've read of Polynesia, people from the Pacific islands / New Zealand etc. generally feel the same way (they like / enjoy that people from around the world enjoy Polynesian culture, and wouldn't mind kids dressing up as Moana at all).

So certainly it can go too far, and there's a problem where people tend not to consider each situation as it comes and just set their opinion in stone. I will admit that I'm assuming it's inappropriate for White British people to dress as Zulu because of the history there but, being totally honest, I still don't actually know or understand the festival's motivations. If it's just "for a bit of fun" it seems like needlessly kicking a hornet's nest... But if there is some ideology behind it then that might be a different situation.

On the flipside though I think it must be all too easy to "throw the baby out with the bathwater", so to speak, and adamantly declare that ALL costumes are "fine"... There is a reason that blacking up is frowned upon - it has been historically used to deliberately mock, belittle and make fun of black people - and obviously in that context it's never acceptable.

[user104658]

Where does it all end ? No French maid outfits? No berets and garlic ? No hula grass skirts ....The list is endlessWell that's what I mean too; there needs to be common sense applied at both ends of the scale. It's NOT all or nothing, or it shouldn't have to be, and it's perfectly acceptable to just say that each situation can be considered separately and broad strokes aren't necessary. And I guess the easy way to find that line is just to look at the reasons and whether or not they're respectful. If a kid wants to dress as Moana because Moana is their hero then obviously that is a positive and respectful reason. If someone blacks up their face and feigns an accent because they just think it's "funny" then that isn't positive or respectful and therefore is inappropriate.

I guess I would add to that, that ignorance isn't really an excuse and if, say, someone does want to dress as a Zulu warrior then it's important that they actually bother to learn about the culture and era properly, instead of just going with stereotypes for impact.

With specific regard to the Zulu costume, though, I would GUESS that a concern might be for black people of all backgrounds (which are obviously mostly non-Zulu) that the costume might reinforce stereotypes of black people being "primitive" or "tribal". But it is quite true that it's only a guess, and remains only a guess until comment is heard from affected people.

[jet]

No I don’t. Zulus and their descendants would probably differ themselves in their opinions as to whether it was offensive or not - so who decides who is right. Others should do what they feel is okay as long as they are not intending to offend.

If a number of affected people expressed grave concerns maybe people would decide against - but I don’t think it is for whites to speak on the behalf of others - some may consider that patronising.

Pretty much this.
Although I think if something is obviously intended to be racist and deliberately offensive, speaking out is the right thing to do. In this case, Zulu's haven't said they are offended, so getting up in arms could be interpreted as patronising. It's as if they can't speak for themselves and need whites to do it for them.

[Withano]

Zulu's haven't said they are offended

:suspect:

Things arent offensive until an entire community formally declare their offense?

Is that really how offensiveness works? Or are we being silly?

[jet]

:suspect:

Things arent offensive until an entire community formally declare their offense?

Is that really how offensiveness works? Or are we being silly?

Obviously not an entire community...don't be acting silly.
A news article reacting to the event saying that some Zulu's were offended would have sufficed to inform people that they considered it unacceptable. That didn't happen.
I think Zulu's and other races are probably more adept than us whites at understanding intent...

[Withano]

Obviously not an entire community...don't be acting silly.
A news article reacting to the event saying that some Zulu's were offended would have sufficed to inform people that they considered it unacceptable. That didn't happen.
I think Zulu's and other races are probably more adept than us whites at understanding intent...

So its inoffensive until one or some Zulu's say otherwise? Does that apply to everything ever?

[Brillopad]

So its inoffensive until one or some Zulu's say otherwise? Does that apply to everything ever?

How about you do what you feel is right and leave others to do the same!

[Withano]

How about you do what you feel is right and leave others to do the same!

How about I can ask why people feel a certain way, and they can answer if they want to or if they can, and thats none of your ****ing business?

[jet]

Well that's what I mean too; there needs to be common sense applied at both ends of the scale. It's NOT all or nothing, or it shouldn't have to be, and it's perfectly acceptable to just say that each situation can be considered separately and broad strokes aren't necessary. And I guess the easy way to find that line is just to look at the reasons and whether or not they're respectful. If a kid wants to dress as Moana because Moana is their hero then obviously that is a positive and respectful reason. If someone blacks up their face and feigns an accent because they just think it's "funny" then that isn't positive or respectful and therefore is inappropriate.

I guess I would add to that, that ignorance isn't really an excuse and if, say, someone does want to dress as a Zulu warrior then it's important that they actually bother to learn about the culture and era properly, instead of just going with stereotypes for impact.

With specific regard to the Zulu costume, though, I would GUESS that a concern might be for black people of all backgrounds (which are obviously mostly non-Zulu) that the costume might reinforce stereotypes of black people being "primitive" or "tribal". But it is quite true that it's only a guess, and remains only a guess until comment is heard from affected people.

I would agree with all that, TS, apart from the last paragraph. I think it would be a stretch for black people to think anyone was making fun of them by dressing in Zulu costume for a festival. It's a hell of a long time since the majority of black people were primitive or tribal....and white people were once primitive and tribal too...so no dressing as a caveman....:nono: :hee:

[Brillopad]

How about I can ask why people feel a certain way, and they can answer if they want to or if they can, and thats none of your ****ing business?

Oh were you actually asking .....

[jet]

So its inoffensive until one or some Zulu's say otherwise? Does that apply to everything ever?

So it's offensive even though no Zulu's have said so? But knock yourself out and be offended for them, and I'll reserve the right not to be offended for them as they haven't said they are, and I'm sure they can speak very well for themselves without my help. Deal?

[Withano]

So it's offensive even though no Zulu's have said so? But knock yourself out and be offended for them, and I'll reserve the right not to be offended for them as they haven't said they are, and I'm sure they can speak very well for themselves without my help. Deal?

That doesnt really answer my question? Could I imply that all of (any group) are stupid idiots, and it would only be offensive if someone from that group says so? I don't think you're thinking this through enough.

[jet]

That doesnt really answer my question? Could I imply that all of (any group) are stupid idiots, and it would only be offensive if someone from that group says so? I don't think you're thinking this through enough.

It's a stupid question.

[Withano]

It's a stupid question.

I know. You should expect more of those when you say stupid stuff. You're kinda suggesting that racist/homophobic/sexist things will only be considered to be so if someone of the insulted race/sexuality/gender say it is offensive. We don't need a spokesperson of the Zulu tribe to understand offense. Same logic that you're missing.

[Brillopad]

I know. You should expect more of those when you say stupid stuff. You're kinda suggesting that racist/homophobic/sexist things will only be considered to be so if someone of the insulted race/sexuality/gender say it is offensive. We don't need a spokesperson of the Zulu tribe to understand offense. Same logic that you're missing.

We do when it’s something as harmless as dressing up for an event. Bit of harmless fun that you are trying to turn into a huge racist mess.

[Withano]

We do when it’s something as harmless as dressing up for an event. Bit of harmless fun that you are trying to turn into a huge racist mess.

Didnt you say yesterday that drag queens were offensive to women? Before you learned drag kings existed? Lemme know when youve figured out where you stand yourself, you're a bit all over the place atm.

[user104658]

I would agree with all that, TS, apart from the last paragraph. I think it would be a stretch for black people to think anyone was making fun of them by dressing in Zulu costume for a festival. It's a hell of a long time since the majority of black people were primitive or tribal....and white people were once primitive and tribal too...so no dressing as a caveman....:nono: :hee:

Maybe so but it's not that long since the majority of western people incorrectly THOUGHT that they were, a couple of centuries at most, and of course there are still a few pockets of people who think that way. So my point I guess is that while the people actually dressing up might have no ill intent at all, there's always the risk of a misunderstanding of those motives. I mean, you can say "Well if they misunderstand and get angry that's their problem", which I guess it is, but it's also not an attitude that's actually going to improve the situation as a whole... Where constructive dialogue about the reasons for doing it might.

Basically instead of a town saying "It's tradition so we're doing it and if you don't like it, tough!"... They could give out information about the history of the event to give it proper context and say "It's a longstanding tradition that we feel is positive, here are the reasons we have for continuing it, we hope people aren't offended by it."

There's a world of difference there without anything else actually having to change much.

[jet]

I know. You should expect more of those when you say stupid stuff. You're kinda suggesting that racist/homophobic/sexist things will only be considered to be so if someone of the insulted race/sexuality/gender say it is offensive. We don't need a spokesperson of the Zulu tribe to understand offense. Same logic that you're missing.

This is a thread about Zulu's, and I was referring to Zulu's. A Zulu has already said he is not offended, no other Zulu's have contradicted him. I respond on a case to case basis. Got it?
I don't know what this topic has to do with all the other things you wheeled out. Honestly, it seems you just want to nitpick and argue for the sake of it.

[Withano]

This is a thread about Zulu's, and I was referring to Zulu's. A Zulu has already said he is not offended, no other Zulu's have contradicted him. I respond on a case to case basis. Got it?
I don't know what this topic has to do with all the other things you wheeled out. Honestly, it seems you just want to nitpick and argue for the sake of it.

No I'm asking for your definition of offense really. Ignoring offensive stuff until some sort of spokesperson for a group claims offense seems silly? I was making sure that this is what you were suggesting. If you dont want to discuss it, you dont have to respond lol.

...also i asked if it applied to everything ever, and you ignored the question so I rephrased it... althoug i am now wondering where the line is.

[jet]

No I'm asking for your definition of offense really. Ignoring offensive stuff until some sort of spokesperson for a group claims offense seems silly? I was making sure that this is what you were suggesting. If you dont want to discuss it, you dont have to respond lol.

...also i asked if it applied to everything ever, and you ignored the question so I rephrased it... althoug i am now wondering where the line is.

I already answered your question above - no it doesn't apply to anything ever, I have said my opinion applies to this thread about Zulu's and I take every topic on a case to case basis. Not sure why you keep asking me the same thing when I've already answered.

[Brillopad]

Didnt you say yesterday that drag queens were offensive to women? Before you learned drag kings existed? Lemme know when youve figured out where you stand yourself, you're a bit all over the place atm.

If you read it properly you will see that I was saying it could be perceived that way but women didn’t make a big fuss about it. I also said I wasn’t that bothered by it - but it was an appropriate comparison. Women don’t generally get all offended over more minor things. Maybe women aren’t the drama queens.

[thesheriff443]

If you are offended that's fine if you are not offended that's also fine.
Its not a crime to be or not to be, so after another twenty pages you will get the same outcome some offended some not offended.

[Brillopad]

If you are offended that's fine if you are not offended that's also fine.
Its not a crime to be or not to be, so after another twenty pages you will get the same outcome some offended some not offended.

The voice of reason. :thumbs:

[Withano]

I already answered your question above - no it doesn't apply to anything ever, I have said my opinion applies to this thread about Zulu's and I take every topic on a case to case basis. Not sure why you keep asking me the same thing when I've already answered.

You didnt originally answer the question. You answered it after I rephrased it, and then you asked me why I rephrased it, and then I explained why i rephrased it, and now we're here. Idk, you're welcome?

[user104658]

If you are offended that's fine if you are not offended that's also fine.
Its not a crime to be or not to be, so after another twenty pages you will get the same outcome some offended some not offended.

The question isn't whether or not each person finds it offensive, though, not really. I personally am not offended by blackface, racist words, racist stereotypes, any other sorts of stereotypes (including ones that apply to me, e.g. about men or about Scottish people). I'm very, very hard to offend I would say. However, not being easily offended on a personal level doesn't mean that you can't try to appreciate that some people ARE hurt, offended and angered by various things and therefore, is it not important to consider the feelings of others? Again I'll say that I'm well aware that it can go too far, there is a line where it becomes ridiculous (as we're seeing on certain academic campuses, etc.) but likewise, there is a line that goes the other way... I sort of feel like we (as a society) are somehow losing the ability to have a feel for what's "too far"... and people are dividing into these two extreme camps where one will take offense at things so minor that it becomes impossible to live a normal existence, and at the same time, the other end of the spectrum is saying "well I've had enough of all of it so I'll just say and do whatever I want" with which, again, things start to become impossible.

Where is the middle ground and why have we lost it? As always, this forum seems to be a bit of a microcosm for this effect. Views seem to be so extreme one way or the other, and frankly, the answer ALWAYS (with all things) lies somewhere in the grey area.

[Beso]

I dont think peoples opinions are extreme at all TS...there aint no hate that i can see on this forum..apart from paedophiles, baby killers and terrorists.

[jet]

Maybe so but it's not that long since the majority of western people incorrectly THOUGHT that they were, a couple of centuries at most, and of course there are still a few pockets of people who think that way. So my point I guess is that while the people actually dressing up might have no ill intent at all, there's always the risk of a misunderstanding of those motives. I mean, you can say "Well if they misunderstand and get angry that's their problem", which I guess it is, but it's also not an attitude that's actually going to improve the situation as a whole... Where constructive dialogue about the reasons for doing it might.

Basically instead of a town saying "It's tradition so we're doing it and if you don't like it, tough!"... They could give out information about the history of the event to give it proper context and say "It's a longstanding tradition that we feel is positive, here are the reasons we have for continuing it, we hope people aren't offended by it."

There's a world of difference there without anything else actually having to change much.

As someone in the article says, if those people were petitioning against racism in schools it would be more helpful than picking on a long standing tradition that isn't meant to be in any way offensive. It's a question of picking your battles.
As the Zulu said:
“So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me.”

What an enlightened and sensible man. I sometimes cringe at the way black people are patronised - sometimes I think they must say to themselves
"they think that they are superior to me, that I'm not normal like them, so they have tip toe around me and watch they don't say or do anything to offend my tender sensibilities". I'm maybe not putting that very well, and maybe that is just me, but maybe you can get an inkling of what I'm getting at?

[Kizzy]

As someone in the article says, if those people were petitioning against racism in schools it would be more helpful than picking on a long standing tradition that isn't meant to be in any way offensive. It's a question of picking your battles.
As the Zulu said:
“So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me.”

What an enlightened and sensible man. I sometimes cringe at the way black people are patronised - sometimes I think they must say to themselves
"they think that they are superior to me, that I'm not normal like them, so they have tip toe around me and watch they don't say or do anything to offend my tender sensibilities". I'm maybe not putting that very well, and maybe that is just me, but maybe you can get an inkling of what I'm getting at?

Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come. After delicate negotiations the bonfire society agreed and said it would also remove skulls, nose rings and dead monkeys from its costumes that Gumede, from Durban but living in Leeds, said were a “gross misrepresentation and unacceptable stereotype of Zulu and black people at large”
When his troupe, Zulu Tradition, was first booked Gumede had only seen one image of the bonfire society costumes and did not consider it offensive, but after further research he changed his mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-annual-parade

[jet]

Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come. After delicate negotiations the bonfire society agreed and said it would also remove skulls, nose rings and dead monkeys from its costumes that Gumede, from Durban but living in Leeds, said were a “gross misrepresentation and unacceptable stereotype of Zulu and black people at large”
When his troupe, Zulu Tradition, was first booked Gumede had only seen one image of the bonfire society costumes and did not consider it offensive, but after further research he changed his mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...-annual-parade

He probably felt he had to after all the petitioning and furore on his behalf.

[Cherie]

is this groundhog day

ut Thandanani Gumede, 32, a Zulu from Durban, South Africa, whose West Yorkshire-based song and dance troop Zulu Tradition will perform in Lewes, said while the issue was sensitive, the costumes and makeup were “not derogatory”.

“I would be offended by people showing up in a Ku Klux Klan uniform,” Gumede said. “So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/30/lewes-bonfire-blacking-up-not-racist-says-zulu-performer

[Cherie]

He probably felt he had to after all the petitioning and furore on his behalf.

same topic, same newspaper, different opinion, it depends on how the wind is blowing?

[bots]

it surely must depend on whether the person(s) doing it are honouring the culture or ridiculing it

[Cherie]

it surely must depend on whether the person(s) doing it are honouring the culture or ridiculing it

well I would have thought so but maybe that is too simple in these times? we need the drama! it 's like oxegen :omgno:

[Kizzy]

is this groundhog day

ut Thandanani Gumede, 32, a Zulu from Durban, South Africa, whose West Yorkshire-based song and dance troop Zulu Tradition will perform in Lewes, said while the issue was sensitive, the costumes and makeup were “not derogatory”.

“I would be offended by people showing up in a Ku Klux Klan uniform,” Gumede said. “So far, based on the information I have, I haven’t [seen] anything racist. I was flattered to see there were people trying to look like me as opposed to saying it is wrong to look like me.”

https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/30/lewes-bonfire-blacking-up-not-racist-says-zulu-performer

Actually the piece I posted is an update to this one.

[Kizzy]

He probably felt he had to after all the petitioning and furore on his behalf.

OR.....He did some research on this 'tradition'.

[Marsh.]

Are you a Zulu? If not - who made you judge and jury! :bored:
Are you suggesting I'm not entitled to my view and whilst claiming I'm somehow calling for everyone to agree with me you're simultaneously shutting my right to my view down?

For shame Brillo.

[smudgie]

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
I would like to think as this is a festive celebration it could be seen thus.

[jet]

OR.....He did some research on this 'tradition'.

1st article:

But Thandanani Gumede, 32, a Zulu from Durban, South Africa, whose West Yorkshire-based song and dance troop Zulu Tradition will perform in Lewes, said while the issue was sensitive,the costumes and makeup were “not derogatory”.

Gumede told the Guardian he had looked at photos of the costumes worn in previous years and considered they were not racist.
“When I first looked at the pictures I thought it was a Zulu,” he said. ‘If someone blacked up and dressed like Tarzan [that would be racist], but it looks like they have taken the time to reproduce the costumes carefully.”

He already knew they blackened their faces and didn't have a problem with it.

Article you posted:
Thanda Gumede, the troupe’s leader, delivered an ultimatum: drop the black face or we won’t come.


Hmmm...

[jet]

The question isn't whether or not each person finds it offensive, though, not really. I personally am not offended by blackface, racist words, racist stereotypes, any other sorts of stereotypes (including ones that apply to me, e.g. about men or about Scottish people). I'm very, very hard to offend I would say. However, not being easily offended on a personal level doesn't mean that you can't try to appreciate that some people ARE hurt, offended and angered by various things and therefore, is it not important to consider the feelings of others? Again I'll say that I'm well aware that it can go too far, there is a line where it becomes ridiculous (as we're seeing on certain academic campuses, etc.) but likewise, there is a line that goes the other way... I sort of feel like we (as a society) are somehow losing the ability to have a feel for what's "too far"... and people are dividing into these two extreme camps where one will take offense at things so minor that it becomes impossible to live a normal existence, and at the same time, the other end of the spectrum is saying "well I've had enough of all of it so I'll just say and do whatever I want" with which, again, things start to become impossible.

Where is the middle ground and why have we lost it? As always, this forum seems to be a bit of a microcosm for this effect. Views seem to be so extreme one way or the other, and frankly, the answer ALWAYS (with all things) lies somewhere in the grey area.

What do you think of the theory that some people who are so easily offended on the behalf of minorities etc. aren't really offended for the group in question but relate to them because of their own feelings of anger, rejection, helplessness etc. Most people are not wired to get that emotionally involved in the woes of groups they don't belong to or know well, but very much wired to take care of their own negative feelings and emotions which they need an outlet to get relief from. These feelings and emotions are then projected onto others who they feel echo their own feelings of being marginalised.
It's like 'I'm fighting for them, for me." Yet they don't realise this; it's an escape mechanism.

[Brillopad]

Are you suggesting I'm not entitled to my view and whilst claiming I'm somehow calling for everyone to agree with me you're simultaneously shutting my right to my view down?

For shame Brillo.

Is that privilidge reserved for one side only then? Feeling frustrated.

[Brillopad]

What do you think of the theory that some people who are so easily offended on the behalf of minorities etc. aren't really offended for the group in question but relate to them because of their own feelings of anger, rejection, helplessness etc. Most people are not wired to get that emotionally involved in the woes of groups they don't belong to or know well, but very much wired to take care of their own negative feelings and emotions which they need an outlet to get relief from. These feelings and emotions are then projected onto others who they feel echo their own feelings of being marginalised.
It's like 'I'm fighting for them, for me." Yet they don't realise this; it's an escape mechanism.

That certainly makes sense Jet. A very well expressed valid point.

[Withano]

Most people are not wired to get that emotionally involved in the woes of groups they don't belong to or know well

A lack of empathy? Usually psychopathic tendencies or narcissistic personality disorder? That can't be the reason there are differing views on this, surely.

[Cherie]

Actually the piece I posted is an update to this one.

I am really struggling with this, so the guy was interviewed and then reinterviewed, and does this happen regularly or was it a journalist looking for an angle who didn't get it first time round, or did the guy genuinely not find it offensive and then change his mind and why would he comment in the first instance if he didn't know what he was commenting on, it's all very strange

[user104658]

What do you think of the theory that some people who are so easily offended on the behalf of minorities etc. aren't really offended for the group in question but relate to them because of their own feelings of anger, rejection, helplessness etc. Most people are not wired to get that emotionally involved in the woes of groups they don't belong to or know well, but very much wired to take care of their own negative feelings and emotions which they need an outlet to get relief from. These feelings and emotions are then projected onto others who they feel echo their own feelings of being marginalised.
It's like 'I'm fighting for them, for me." Yet they don't realise this; it's an escape mechanism.

It's an interesting concept and I would say certainly valid in cases where people find themselves getting genuinely "offended on behalf of" others, i.e. Really emotionally upset or angry about the issues being discussed. However, like I said I think it's possible to at least explore these issues and think about / empathise with others WITHOUT being emotionally involved. Surely it's possible to appreciate and want to support people who are upset by something, without getting upset at all oneself, or having it affect the rest of one's day in any way?

I would also say that if it is the case, and people's heavy emotional involvement with "offense" is in part down to projection, then surely that must apply both ways? There are people who get very emotionally wound up and certainly very angry on the flips idea of this, too... I guess in this case you could say "outraged on behalf of the festival organisers". It's sort of the same thing; the specifics of the case don't involve them in any way at all unless they are actually from that area or involved, and yet some people are incensed at the idea of it being "affected by PC" etc... So, might there be a similar element of projection there? People aren't actually annoyed by criticisms of the Zulu carnival, they might be projecting their own feelings of having their own expression shut down or invalidated, and be projecting it onto an event / event organisers that have nothing to do with them... Making it exactly the same "fighting for them for me" escape mechanism?

[user104658]

I am really struggling with this, so the guy was interviewed and then reinterviewed, and does this happen regularly or was it a journalist looking for an angle who didn't get it first time round, or did the guy genuinely not find it offensive and then change his mind and why would he comment in the first instance if he didn't know what he was commenting on, it's all very strangeI think it was one comment and then a follow up after the controversy. My take on this is that there are two possibilities;

1) He initially didn't have an issue but hadn't given it much thought, and when certain aspects were pointed out he became genuinely less comfortable with them.

2) He didn't have a personal issue with it even after hearing other people's concerns, but the fact that other people WERE concerned was enough to make him change his statement for PR reasons.


Either way I honestly am not convinced that the opinion of any one person, Zulu or not, can be considered gospel in any situation. It's sort of meaningless whether he finds it OK or not... He's one person, and the idea that he speaks for an entire group just by virtue of being a member of that group is quite flawed. It doesn't indicate anything at all about the opinions of other members of that group.

I mean look at this forum / even this thread. There are a number of us Pale Stale Males here but it would obviously be nonsense to try to assume that all share the same opinion, when there are as many variations as members.

Of course, I'm not calling you a pale stale male Cherie. A pale well-febrezed female. :hee:

[Cherie]

I think it was one comment and then a follow up after the controversy. My take on this is that there are two possibilities;

1) He initially didn't have an issue but hadn't given it much thought, and when certain aspects were pointed out he became genuinely less comfortable with them.

2) He didn't have a personal issue with it even after hearing other people's concerns, but the fact that other people WERE concerned was enough to make him change his statement for PR reasons.


Either way I honestly am not convinced that the opinion of any one person, Zulu or not, can be considered gospel in any situation. It's sort of meaningless whether he finds it OK or not... He's one person, and the idea that he speaks for an entire group just by virtue of being a member of that group is quite flawed. It doesn't indicate anything at all about the opinions of other members of that group.

I mean look at this forum / even this thread. There are a number of us Pale Stale Males here but it would obviously be nonsense to try to assume that all share the same opinion, when there are as many variations as members.

Of course, I'm not calling you a pale stale male Cherie. A pale well-febrezed female. :hee:


Yeah I agree we do seem very hung up in this guy and his changeable opinion, Of course he doesn't speak for all Zulus anymore than I speak on behalf of the Irish nation, it's just a snapshot of opinion that the paper has run with to make a story, and it has served us very well here on TiBB, it's kept us wittering away for pages :laugh:

[user104658]

I speak on behalf of the Irish nation

Thats impossible anyway, as Niamh got the job ages ago.

[Crimson Dynamo]

as far as i can gather the odd person thinking you are being racist is not illegal or indeed any reason not to do something

in fact their opinion is not really any of my business?

[user104658]

as far as i can gather the odd person thinking you are being racist is not illegal or indeed any reason not to do something

in fact their opinion is not really any of my business?

Would it be different if it seemed like the majority of people thought it; or at least, the majority of the race actually affected? I'm not saying that's the case with this specific example, just hypothetically.

[Kizzy]

1st article:



He already knew they blackened their faces and didn't have a problem with it.

Article you posted:


Hmmm...

The explanation is in the article I quoted.

[Kizzy]

I am really struggling with this, so the guy was interviewed and then reinterviewed, and does this happen regularly or was it a journalist looking for an angle who didn't get it first time round, or did the guy genuinely not find it offensive and then change his mind and why would he comment in the first instance if he didn't know what he was commenting on, it's all very strange

It's really not that hard, he did some further research into the 'tradition' and realised that he was not comfortable. Not sure how a journalist can influence a quote...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Would it be different if it seemed like the majority of people thought it; or at least, the majority of the race actually affected? I'm not saying that's the case with this specific example, just hypothetically.

i think that most people can judge when that point arises yes

same way I would not cut in a queue in a shop etc

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its like the word "p aki"

when I was young that was the name of the local shop "the p akis " or "the p aki* shop" but over the years the word "p aki" was used in a negative way and became associated with bad feeling (and to lump all asians as one) so became a word not to be used

Conversely the word "chinky" was and is to a degree used for a Chinese takeaway and now people are like "ooh you cant say that but it was never used in a negative way due probably to numbers and visibility of Chinese people (in Scotland in this example)

I think people just link the 2 words together "p aki, chinky" but in my mind they have very different etymology


So in reference to the question that word to describe a Pakistani became unacceptable due to just that, the majority decrying it so


and interestingly the swear filter agrees with me :hee:

[Kizzy]

What do you think of the theory that some people who are so easily offended on the behalf of minorities etc. aren't really offended for the group in question but relate to them because of their own feelings of anger, rejection, helplessness etc. Most people are not wired to get that emotionally involved in the woes of groups they don't belong to or know well, but very much wired to take care of their own negative feelings and emotions which they need an outlet to get relief from. These feelings and emotions are then projected onto others who they feel echo their own feelings of being marginalised.
It's like 'I'm fighting for them, for me." Yet they don't realise this; it's an escape mechanism.

What a ridiculous notion of course we are, we have sympathy, empathy, compassion, a conscience and free will to express any or all of those.

The suggestion that we are human echo chambers or only interested in what happens in our own circle of trust is a very insular , modern and in the main media driven concept.

I would go as far as to say if you can't express a full range of human emotions for the plight of suffering strangers, then that in itself is indicative of some defective thought and reasoning process.

Do you consider that only those regard themselves marginalised have a reason to care, and if not they don't?

[Kizzy]

Its like the word "p aki"

when I was young that was the name of the local shop "the p akis " or "the p aki* shop" but over the years the word "p aki" was used in a negative way and became associated with bad feeling (and to lump all asians as one) so became a word not to be used

Conversely the word "chinky" was and is to a degree used for a Chinese takeaway and now people are like "ooh you cant say that but it was never used in a negative way due probably to numbers and visibility of Chinese people (in Scotland in this example)

I think people just link the 2 words together "p aki, chinky" but in my mind they have very different etymology


So in reference to the question that word to describe a Pakistani became unacceptable due to just that, the majority decrying it so


and interestingly the swear filter agrees with me :hee:

It didn't that's why you had to break that word up.
All I got from your post is 'Oh why can't things be like they were in the 70s and casual racism be acceptable? Bring back Bernard Manning!!'

[user104658]

Its like the word "p aki"

when I was young that was the name of the local shop "the p akis " or "the p aki* shop" but over the years the word "p aki" was used in a negative way and became associated with bad feeling (and to lump all asians as one) so became a word not to be used

Conversely the word "chinky" was and is to a degree used for a Chinese takeaway and now people are like "ooh you cant say that but it was never used in a negative way due probably to numbers and visibility of Chinese people (in Scotland in this example)

I think people just link the 2 words together "p aki, chinky" but in my mind they have very different etymology


So in reference to the question that word to describe a Pakistani became unacceptable due to just that, the majority decrying it so


and interestingly the swear filter agrees with me :hee:

Maybe right, though I'm too fresh-faced to remember "the p word" being used as anything other than a derogatory term. "Chinky" is a weird one; when it's used as shorthand for a Chinese takeaway or meal I;d say the etymology is no different to referring to a "chippy". Likewise, the Chinese restaurant next to my work (who we have a close working relationship with... by which I mean I swap them bags of change when they need it and they give me free chicken balls & chips :joker: ) has no issue with the term either. It does however become a problem when the actual PEOPLE are referred to as "Chinkies" and I guess that's the difference; nearly had a fight start when someone was referred to as "that wee chinky guy at the front" in a negative context.

Which is something I have some sympathy for, having lived in England for a while. Scotch whiskey? Fine. Scotch pie? No problem. Though I will argue that this is simply "a pie" with no prefix needed :laugh:.

But when people called ME "Scotch" or "The Scotch guy" it did make me genuinely pissed off :umm2:. So it's not the word, it's the usage.

[user104658]

It didn't that's why you had to break that word up.
All I got from your post is 'Oh why can't things be like they were in the 70s and casual racism be acceptable? Bring back Bernard Manning!!'

Think his point was that you can't say **** (p-word) but you can say "chinky", showing that one has become a more commonly recognised racial slur.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Maybe right, though I'm too fresh-faced to remember "the p word" being used as anything other than a derogatory term. "Chinky" is a weird one; when it's used as shorthand for a Chinese takeaway or meal I;d say the etymology is no different to referring to a "chippy". Likewise, the Chinese restaurant next to my work (who we have a close working relationship with... by which I mean I swap them bags of change when they need it and they give me free chicken balls & chips :joker: ) has no issue with the term either. It does however become a problem when the actual PEOPLE are referred to as "Chinkies" and I guess that's the difference; nearly had a fight start when someone was referred to as "that wee chinky guy at the front" in a negative context.

Which is something I have some sympathy for, having lived in England for a while. Scotch whiskey? Fine. Scotch pie? No problem. Though I will argue that this is simply "a pie" with no prefix needed :laugh:.

But when people called ME "Scotch" or "The Scotch guy" it did make me genuinely pissed off :umm2:. So it's not the word, it's the usage.

agree with all of the above

[bots]

It is all about the usage rather than the words themselves. That's the nature of language and particularly English. Its not what you say, it's how you say it. That's why I think it's wrong to ban words outright. It diminishes our means to express ourselves. There has to be a more refined method of determining whats right and whats wrong, because those wishing to be derogatory will continually latch on to new terms to get their point across, they wont be stopped, and we just end up with fewer words in our vocabulary.

[Kizzy]

Think his point was that you can't say **** (p-word) but you can say "chinky", showing that one has become a more commonly recognised racial slur.

They are the same for me whether 'p shop' or 'c takeway' in my experience the people which use those terms will also use them as a racially aggravated descriptor 'effing p' or 'effing c'.
I don't recognise that one is any more or less offensive than the other personally.

[Livia]

I went to a fancy dress party where someone was dressed up as a member of the SS. I was not insulted. It was a party. He wasn't there to gas Jews, he was there for a party.

When I lived in London, I knew a lot of white people who danced Bhangra. Should they be allowed to wear traditional Indian dress if they're white?

My opinion is that, if you intend to insult and ridicule, then you're racist. If you're having a party, a parade, whatever... and your intention is not to insult and ridicule, then what's the harm?

Kids dressed up as cowboys and Indians for years yet I've never heard anyone complain that it was insulting to Native Americans who, incidentally, per head of capita are the largest ethnic group in the USA to suffer fatal shootings at the hands of the police. I find it interesting that no one's taken up their plight and had a march.

[user104658]

They are the same for me whether 'p shop' or 'c takeway' in my experience the people which use those terms will also use them as a racially aggravated descriptor 'effing p' or 'effing c'.
I don't recognise that one is any more or less offensive than the other personally.

Maybe it's different by area, I rarely hear it used in the context of anything but the food and... to be frank... I hear "English" used as a slur far more often (English ****, English bastard, English whatever) so as mentioned before, I think context matters. Or to go back to the earlier example; I hate being referred to as "Scotch" and I'd guess most Scottish people do... but no one takes issue with the term "Scotch Whiskey". Likewise, in my (admittedly limited) experience of Chinese people in Britain, they would not like to be called "Chinkies" but have no issue with people referring to a Chinese meal as "getting a Chinky". Also most of my colleagues refer to it in those terms but would lose their **** (and have done) if they heard any slur like that being used in a derogatory or aggressive way.

It's fair enough to NOT want to call it that for whatever reason... I personally don't either because I'm a bit of a posho in that I don't really use many colloquialisms in general (I don't even call small things "wee" :omgno: )

And, tbf, if a Chinese person ever said "I'd rather you didn't call it that" I'd expect people to respect that and not just defiantly be like "Tough I'll call it what I want!!" because there's just no need.

[user104658]

I went to a fancy dress party where someone was dressed up as a member of the SS. I was not insulted. It was a party. He wasn't there to gas Jews, he was there for a party.

As a matter of interest though, I'm sure there would be some Jewish people who WOULD have a problem with a Nazi costume and what would be your opinion / reacting to a fellow Jew (and the situation) in your company if they were uncomfortable with it?

Surely there's an element of moderating oneself based on the present company, if their feelings on it are known, anyway. For example, one of my best friends is a gay man and he finds "gay jokes" hilarious... like side-splittingly funny... to more controversial the better. He's just a fan of controversial humour... he has the best nervous laugh... he's terrified of people telling him that they've had a family member die because he has an uncontrollable urge to laugh at inappropriate times :joker:. So a lot of what most people would consider unacceptable "gay jokes" fly around if he's out with old friends. However, his partner is not-so-comfortable with it so when they're both there, it obviously gets reigned right in.

I also wonder if it's maybe down to past experiences? As my friend had a relatively easy / accepting "coming out" and as far as I know never really experienced anything in the way of verbal attacks or abuse "for real". If he had maybe it would "taint" any light-hearted controversial joking on the subject?

[Kizzy]

Maybe it's different by area, I rarely hear it used in the context of anything but the food and... to be frank... I hear "English" used as a slur far more often (English ****, English bastard, English whatever) so as mentioned before, I think context matters. Or to go back to the earlier example; I hate being referred to as "Scotch" and I'd guess most Scottish people do... but no one takes issue with the term "Scotch Whiskey". Likewise, in my (admittedly limited) experience of Chinese people in Britain, they would not like to be called "Chinkies" but have no issue with people referring to a Chinese meal as "getting a Chinky". Also most of my colleagues refer to it in those terms but would lose their **** (and have done) if they heard any slur like that being used in a derogatory or aggressive way.

It's fair enough to NOT want to call it that for whatever reason... I personally don't either because I'm a bit of a posho in that I don't really use many colloquialisms in general (I don't even call small things "wee" :omgno: )

And, tbf, if a Chinese person ever said "I'd rather you didn't call it that" I'd expect people to respect that and not just defiantly be like "Tough I'll call it what I want!!" because there's just no need.

That's ok as usual there are those willing to be offended on their behalf... :)

Personally when asked I would say 'we're having Chinese', it's not difficult and avoids the possibility of offence doesn't it?

The strange notion that it detracts from our language taking words out is worrying if only if you take the time to consider why they became 'words' in the first instance.

[Livia]

As a matter of interest though, I'm sure there would be some Jewish people who WOULD have a problem with a Nazi costume and what would be your opinion / reacting to a fellow Jew (and the situation) in your company if they were uncomfortable with it?

Surely there's an element of moderating oneself based on the present company, if their feelings on it are known, anyway. For example, one of my best friends is a gay man and he finds "gay jokes" hilarious... like side-splittingly funny... to more controversial the better. He's just a fan of controversial humour... he has the best nervous laugh... he's terrified of people telling him that they've had a family member die because he has an uncontrollable urge to laugh at inappropriate times :joker:. So a lot of what most people would consider unacceptable "gay jokes" fly around if he's out with old friends. However, his partner is not-so-comfortable with it so when they're both there, it obviously gets reigned right in.

I also wonder if it's maybe down to past experiences? As my friend had a relatively easy / accepting "coming out" and as far as I know never really experienced anything in the way of verbal attacks or abuse "for real". If he had maybe it would "taint" any light-hearted controversial joking on the subject?

Interestingly, I did have a discussion about this with my grandmother. She's a Holocaust Survivor in her 90s. She tutted and rolled her eyes. But she wasn't insulted. It was a party... they weren't gassing Jews. In the same way she doesn't take offence at 'Allo 'Allo.

I do see what you're saying though and yes, there will be some Jews who might have taken offence. But really, you can't please all of the people all of the time. Indeed, you could die trying.

[Crimson Dynamo]

That's ok as usual there are those willing to be offended on their behalf... :)

Personally when asked I would say 'we're having Chinese', it's not difficult and avoids the possibility of offence doesn't it?

The strange notion that it detracts from our language taking words out is worrying if only if you take the time to consider why they became 'words' in the first instance.

Its a Scottish thing to put Y's on things like bevvy, chippy, icy (ice cream van), drinky (yon dug is havin a wee drinky fae that dub), chinky, a wee warmy at the fire, a wee cuppy tea, going for a proper swally oan a Friday etc

[Kizzy]

I went to a fancy dress party where someone was dressed up as a member of the SS. I was not insulted. It was a party. He wasn't there to gas Jews, he was there for a party.

When I lived in London, I knew a lot of white people who danced Bhangra. Should they be allowed to wear traditional Indian dress if they're white?

My opinion is that, if you intend to insult and ridicule, then you're racist. If you're having a party, a parade, whatever... and your intention is not to insult and ridicule, then what's the harm?

Kids dressed up as cowboys and Indians for years yet I've never heard anyone complain that it was insulting to Native Americans who, incidentally, per head of capita are the largest ethnic group in the USA to suffer fatal shootings at the hands of the police. I find it interesting that no one's taken up their plight and had a march.

And you speak for the entire Jewish community?
Also as you wouldn't have an issue it doesn't and shouldn't naturally follow that any Zulus or descendants won't take exception to this bizarre display.

The harm being it does ridicule and insult in the topic in discussion, whatever the intent.

The point in relation to children playing is entirely irrelevant and not comparable here at all.

[Livia]

That's ok as usual there are those willing to be offended on their behalf... :)

Personally when asked I would say 'we're having Chinese', it's not difficult and avoids the possibility of offence doesn't it?

The strange notion that it detracts from our language taking words out is worrying if only if you take the time to consider why they became 'words' in the first instance.

I find it quite hard to accept that you're so careful not to hurt people's feeling when ordering a takeaway, but you are capable of being quite rude and cutting on here. It's a fine balance to strike.

I don't speak for the whole Jewish community as you intimate in your last post. But then, you don't speak for the whole of the Chinese community.

[Kizzy]

Its a Scottish thing to put Y's on things like bevvy, chippy, icy (ice cream van), drinky (yon dug is havin a wee drinky fae that dub), chinky, a wee warmy at the fire, a wee cuppy tea, going for a proper swally oan a Friday etc

I'm from Yorkshire... We say lovey, chippy, drinky and many others. C **** is an offensive term I don't say that, for that reason. Your accent can't be used to justify your use of that term.

[Livia]

And you speak for the entire Jewish community?
Also as you wouldn't have an issue it doesn't and shouldn't naturally follow that any Zulus or descendants won't take exception to this bizarre display.

The harm being it does ridicule and insult in the topic in discussion, whatever the intent.

The point in relation to children playing is entirely irrelevant and not comparable here at all.

Luckily, you don't get to decide what is and isn't relevant.

How many actors have done "red face" to make a Western, Hmmm? Lots.

[Kizzy]

I find it quite hard to accept that you're so careful not to hurt people's feeling when ordering a takeaway, but you are capable of being quite rude and cutting on here. It's a fine balance to strike.

I don't speak for the whole Jewish community as you intimate in your last post. But then, you don't speak for the whole of the Chinese community.

I find it really easy not to be rude Livia, I'll be happy to help you out anytime you need any assistance.

Never did I suggest I spoke for the Chinese community.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm from Yorkshire... We say lovey, chippy, drinky and many others. C **** is an offensive term I don't say that, for that reason. Your accent can't be used to justify your use of that term.

sorry i dont see it as offensive and have never heard it expressed in that way to describe a type of food takeaway

[Kizzy]

Luckily, you don't get to decide what is and isn't relevant.

How many actors have done "red face" to make a Western, Hmmm? Lots.

Right so we've transcended from children playing, to spaghetti westerns? OK
Start a thread and we'll discuss that.

[Livia]

I find it really easy not to be rude Livia, I'll be happy to help you out anytime you need any assistance.

Never did I suggest I spoke for the Chinese community.

And never did I suggest I spoke for the whole Jewish community.

[Livia]

Right so we've transcended from children playing, to spaghetti westerns? OK
Start a thread and we'll discuss that.

Don't try to muddy the waters here. We're talking about whether it's racist to dress up as another race. I made the point about Native Americans. We don't need another thread I am perfectly on topic.

[Kizzy]

sorry i dont see it as offensive and have never heard it expressed in that way to describe a type of food takeaway

Sorry had to laugh....:joker:

'Find the words ‘poofter’ and ‘Chinky’ inoffensive? You’re probably an elderly, male, Northern, Ukip voter.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11311523/Find-the-words-poofter-and-Chinky-inoffensive-Youre-probably-an-elderly-male-Northern-Ukip-voter.html

[Kizzy]

Don't try to muddy the waters here. We're talking about whether it's racist to dress up as another race. I made the point about Native Americans. We don't need another thread I am perfectly on topic.

So your not reaching, even a little to avoid discussing the topic at hand?

Yes I would consider them to be also, that was then and this is now. We are allegedly much more culturally sympathetic ...LOL

[Marsh.]

Is that privilidge reserved for one side only then? Feeling frustrated.
What privilege? I've given my opinion which you seem to think I'm not entitled to.

[Brillopad]

So your not reaching, even a little to avoid discussing the topic at hand?

Yes I would consider them to be also, that was then and this is now. We are allegedly much more culturally sympathetic ...LOL

What we don't need are people taking it upon themselves to dictate how sympathetic everyone else needs to be. :bored:

[Cherie]

And you speak for the entire Jewish community?
Also as you wouldn't have an issue it doesn't and shouldn't naturally follow that any Zulus or descendants won't take exception to this bizarre display.

The harm being it does ridicule and insult in the topic in discussion, whatever the intent.

The point in relation to children playing is entirely irrelevant and not comparable here at all.

you are happy to take on Zulu's word for it though, that he was offended, even though he wasn't to begin with as offence for the whole Zulu population :think:

[jet]

What a ridiculous notion of course we are, we have sympathy, empathy, compassion, a conscience and free will to express any or all of those.

The suggestion that we are human echo chambers or only interested in what happens in our own circle of trust is a very insular , modern and in the main media driven concept.

I would go as far as to say if you can't express a full range of human emotions for the plight of suffering strangers, then that in itself is indicative of some defective thought and reasoning process.

Do you consider that only those regard themselves marginalised have a reason to care, and if not they don't?

That's why I said SOME people, those who go to extremes...and I also said that people aren't THAT wired to others sufferings as much as they are to their own, not that they don't care at all.
It's human nature and called the survival instinct. How many would go to the extreme of dying for a stranger? Not many. How many would donate all their money and belongings to a cause and starve? Not many. No, their own well being is more important to them, right?

Also, people who have true empathy don't leave it behind when they get behind a computer screen. True empathy isn't reserved for certain groups, it should extent to all. A lot is revealed when people are anonymous, like unkindness and nastiness.
There is empathy and then there is over - zealousness and combativeness.

[Brillopad]

What privilege? I've given my opinion which you seem to think I'm not entitled to.

You are entitled - just don't try to force it on to me or anyone else who doesn't agree with you.

[Tom4784]

You are entitled - just don't try to force it on to me or anyone else who doesn't agree with you.

'You are entitlted but only when I say it's okay.'

[Kizzy]

What we don't need are people taking it upon themselves to dictate how sympathetic everyone else needs to be. :bored:
I was of course referring to how much more culturally sympathetic we are since the days when hollywood actors would 'red up' .

Try to read the thread in context it really helps.

[Kizzy]

you are happy to take on Zulu's word for it though, that he was offended, even though he wasn't to begin with as offence for the whole Zulu population :think:

I am happy to take 'the Zulus' or Mr Gumedes word for it yes, even though he initially wasn't of course why wouldn't I?

Of course I haven't ever suggested that Mr Gumede is offended on behalf of all Zulu... What a strange thing to insinuate.

[jet]

It's an interesting concept and I would say certainly valid in cases where people find themselves getting genuinely "offended on behalf of" others, i.e. Really emotionally upset or angry about the issues being discussed. However, like I said I think it's possible to at least explore these issues and think about / empathise with others WITHOUT being emotionally involved. Surely it's possible to appreciate and want to support people who are upset by something, without getting upset at all oneself, or having it affect the rest of one's day in any way?

I would also say that if it is the case, and people's heavy emotional involvement with "offense" is in part down to projection, then surely that must apply both ways? There are people who get very emotionally wound up and certainly very angry on the flips idea of this, too... I guess in this case you could say "outraged on behalf of the festival organisers". It's sort of the same thing; the specifics of the case don't involve them in any way at all unless they are actually from that area or involved, and yet some people are incensed at the idea of it being "affected by PC" etc... So, might there be a similar element of projection there? People aren't actually annoyed by criticisms of the Zulu carnival, they might be projecting their own feelings of having their own expression shut down or invalidated, and be projecting it onto an event / event organisers that have nothing to do with them... Making it exactly the same "fighting for them for me" escape mechanism?

Sorry, I haven't time to answer this in more depth...
Yes, that’s why I said ‘some people’ - those who take it to extremes and see racism and injustice around every corner. Most of us have a natural empathy for the sufferings of others, but also have a sense of balance and can work out when something is deliberately hurtful or intended to cause conflict and when it isn’t.
We all have a coping instinct in which what we say and do unconsciously ‘feeds’ our minds and emotions to hopefully get us the outcome we need to make us feel better.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the more dangerous and unpleasant the world becomes as a whole, the more PC many people become.

[Kizzy]

That's why I said SOME people, those who go to extremes...and I also said that people aren't THAT wired to others sufferings as much as they are to their own, not that they don't care at all.
It's human nature and called the survival instinct. How many would go to the extreme of dying for a stranger? Not many. How many would donate all their money and belongings to a cause and starve? Not many. No, their own well being is more important to them, right?

Also, people who have true empathy don't leave it behind when they get behind a computer screen. True empathy isn't reserved for certain groups, it should extent to all. A lot is revealed when people are anonymous, like unkindness and nastiness.
There is empathy and then there is over - zealousness and combativeness.
Loving that tangent you're flying off on there....
Of course peoples own well being is important to them you are lurching from the ridiculous to the downright obvious with not much sense in between, sorry.
My whole point is that empathy isn't reserved for certain groups, are you suggesting people are nastier online than in person?... :/

[Cherie]

I am happy to take 'the Zulus' or Mr Gumedes word for it yes, even though he initially wasn't of course why wouldn't I?



Of course I haven't ever suggested that Mr Gumede is offended on behalf of all Zulu... What a strange thing to insinuate.

Yet you weren't happy for Livia to not be offended on her own behalf, you insinuated she was speaking for all Jews? you can't have it both ways

[Marsh.]

You are entitled - just don't try to force it on to me or anyone else who doesn't agree with you.
Where have I done that?

Simply posting my opinion in a thread asking for opinions is forcing you to go along with it?

You really need to get a grip.

[Marsh.]

Think his point was that you can't say **** (p-word) but you can say "chinky", showing that one has become a more commonly recognised racial slur.
I think they both are where I'm from.

It's probably that the mods haven't come to the point they need to censor the second as it hasn't come up to be used as a slur.

[Kizzy]

Sorry, I haven't time to answer this in more depth...
Yes, that’s why I said ‘some people’ - those who take it to extremes and see racism and injustice around every corner. Most of us have a natural empathy for the sufferings of others, but also have a sense of balance and can work out when something is deliberately hurtful or intended to cause conflict and when it isn’t.
We all have a coping instinct in which what we say and do unconsciously ‘feeds’ our minds and emotions to hopefully get us the outcome we need to make us feel better.
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the more dangerous and unpleasant the world becomes as a whole, the more PC many people become.

Was waiting for the PC term to raise it's head... Oh someone is agreeing with the offended minority when we want the have 'fun' in the name of 'tradition' we best trot out the tired old worn phrases to diminish their opinion.

We're not being intentionally offensive in our lionskin covered in skulls and horns, and if you're offended tuff.
The motto of the bonfire is they won't be 'druv' meaning (to me) however what we do is perceived let it be known we don't care we're doing it anyway.

Isn't that a sorry state of affairs that the more dangerous the world becomes it's seen as a bad thing to want to resolve it in a 'politically correct' way, what's the alternative... Anarchy?....War?.... Segregation?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think they both are where I'm from.

It's probably that the mods haven't come to the point they need to censor the second as it hasn't come up to be used as a slur.

Its so rare that you see Chinese people in general outwith a large city. I never see any anywhere

[Kizzy]

Yet you weren't happy for Livia to not be offended on her own behalf, you insinuated she was speaking for all Jews? you can't have it both ways

Are you Livias official spokesperson now?...ok.

I haven't got it both ways...I never requested it both ways.

If you re read my post again you will see that I insinuated very strongly she did not speak for the entire Jewish community.

She was speaking for herself relaying a story in relation to a situation she found herself in that (for me at least) inferred that if there was no intent there was no offence to be taken...That of course is entirely subjective and relies on the circumstances surrounding to two scenarios.

The inference was that is she wasn't offended at that why was Mr Gumede offended at this, how else is her comment to be interpreted?

[Marsh.]

Its so rare that you see Chinese people in general outwith a large city. I never see any anywhere
Not around here.

There's suddenly quite a large Chinese population the last couple of years.

The number of them I see spending thousands in the bookies is quite eye opening. :worry:

[Brillopad]

Where have I done that?

Simply posting my opinion in a thread asking for opinions is forcing you to go along with it?

You really need to get a grip.

It’s not me that’s needs to get a grip. Calling people racist at every opportunity is trying to force your opinions on to others. You are saying that if they don’t agree with your views, think like you, see things your way etc not only are they ‘wrong’ they are ‘bad people’ and you are therefore entitled to call them nasty names. It’s pathetic.

[jet]

Was waiting for the PC term to raise it's head... Oh someone is agreeing with the offended minority when we want the have 'fun' in the name of 'tradition' we best trot out the tired old worn phrases to diminish their opinion.

We're not being intentionally offensive in our lionskin covered in skulls and horns, and if you're offended tuff.
The motto of the bonfire is they won't be 'druv' meaning (to me) however what we do is perceived let it be known we don't care we're doing it anyway.

Isn't that a sorry state of affairs that the more dangerous the world becomes it's seen as a bad thing to want to resolve it in a 'politically correct' way, what's the alternative... Anarchy?....War?.... Segregation?

I used the term PC as an observation, not a criticism. I'm fairly PC myself, just not overly so.
Of course people have the right to be offended, and people have the right not to be offended. Why is not accepted that people are all different?
War, Anarchy? No. I think more tolerance is the way to go. Trying to force people to all think alike is very dangerous indeed.

[Marsh.]

It’s not me that’s needs to get a grip. Calling people racist at every opportunity is trying to force your opinions on to others. You are saying that if they don’t agree with your views, think like you, see things your way etc not only are they ‘wrong’ they are ‘bad people’ and you are therefore entitled to call them nasty names. It’s pathetic.
I haven't said that about anyone who disagrees with me.

Keep trying.

[Kizzy]

I used the term PC as an observation, not a criticism. I'm fairly PC myself, just not overly so.
Of course people have the right to be offended, and people have the right not to be offended. Why is not accepted that people are all different?
War, Anarchy? No. I think more tolerance is the way to go. Trying to force people to all think alike is very dangerous indeed.

It came across a tad critical, as I asked what is the alternative? People are appearing more PC because guess what they don't want to go to war again, they don't want genocide, they don't want regression.
It's not forcing anyone to do anything is it?

[Cherie]

Are you Livias official spokesperson now?...ok.

I haven't got it both ways...I never requested it both ways.

If you re read my post again you will see that I insinuated very strongly she did not speak for the entire Jewish community.

She was speaking for herself relaying a story in relation to a situation she found herself in that (for me at least) inferred that if there was no intent there was no offence to be taken...That of course is entirely subjective and relies on the circumstances surrounding to two scenarios.

The inference was that is she wasn't offended at that why was Mr Gumede offended at this, how else is her comment to be interpreted?


No why do you think that, I responded as it fitted with other points I addressed as you well know, didn't realise we had to keep within certain parameters, anything else you would like to dictate while you are at it?

[Kizzy]

No why do you think that, I responded as it fitted with other points I addressed as you well know, didn't realise we had to keep within certain parameters, anything else you would like to dictate while you are at it?

It didn't fit though...You completely misinterpreted my post by asking me to clarify a statement I didn't make, and somehow that's my fault :/

[Cherie]

It didn't fit though...You completely misinterpreted my post by asking me to clarify a statement I didn't make, and somehow that's my fault :/

No I don't believe I did misinterpret your post, if deleted posts were still in evidence it would back that up :hehe:

[Kizzy]

I've had a post deleted? News to me.

[lostalex]

I remember when Kizzy first came to this place. She's still just as annoying. Hey kizz! nice to see ya!

she loves me too.

[Northern Monkey]

It’s exactly this kind of attitude that is anti inclusive and breeds division.If something is blatant racism then people will call it out.
Dressing as another culture is not racism.Now if somebody was dressing up as a black minstrel with white eyes i’d condem it too as it has a racist history.
Common sense and context is needed.Multiculturalism is bringing us a fairly new set of problems and common sense from everyone is needed.

[Kizzy]

I remember when Kizzy first came to this place. She's still just as annoying. Hey kizz! nice to see ya!

she loves me too.

Hi yep my first memory of you is you asking Ben to ban me... good timez LOL

[Brillopad]

Was waiting for the PC term to raise it's head... Oh someone is agreeing with the offended minority when we want the have 'fun' in the name of 'tradition' we best trot out the tired old worn phrases to diminish their opinion.

We're not being intentionally offensive in our lionskin covered in skulls and horns, and if you're offended tuff.
The motto of the bonfire is they won't be 'druv' meaning (to me) however what we do is perceived let it be known we don't care we're doing it anyway.

Isn't that a sorry state of affairs that the more dangerous the world becomes it's seen as a bad thing to want to resolve it in a 'politically correct' way, what's the alternative... Anarchy?....War?.... Segregation?

The irony there being that the left cause much of the anarchy with all their protest marches and attempts to control how others think - both of which often lead to violence. It's akin to baiting.

PC is by it's very definition is controlling - it is designed to be - to deny that is infantile. All these people wanting to see themselves as 'progressive' when I believe that really they fear that not just accepting everyone regardless of the issues involved will lead to the above ie war etc - one could argue that was simply a form of self-interest.

Segregation is very often something minorities do to themselves. Many come to Britain but do very little to integrate - not even to learn the basics such as language - there is never any excuse for that.

[Kizzy]

No I don't believe I did misinterpret your post, if deleted posts were still in evidence it would back that up :hehe:

Again to clarify there have been none of my posts removed from this thread.

[Niamh.]

I just went back and checked, there was around 8 posts deleted in this thread none of them were Kizzys though

[Kizzy]

The irony there being that the left cause much of the anarchy with all their protest marches and attempts to control how others think - both of which often lead to violence. It's akin to baiting.

PC is by it's very definition is controlling - it is designed to be - to deny that is infantile. All these people wanting to see themselves as 'progressive' when I believe that really they fear that not just accepting everyone regardless of the issues involved will lead to the above ie war etc - one could argue that was simply a form of self-interest.

Segregation is very often something minorities do to themselves. Many come to Britain but do very little to integrate - not even to learn the basics such as language - there is never any excuse for that.

The right also march... there are perhaps more organised right wing marches than left I would say, that said they are if peaceful perfectly acceptable as we have that right thankfully. Would you remove the right to protest?

Define PC for me, I would be interested to hear what this propaganda inspired soundbite has invoked in your mind, to deny that isn't infantile it's you attempting to control the conversation by reducing any opinion contrary to yours to that of a child.

I'm not sure how you manipulated the thread once again into an attack on left wing values unless they're somehow are a crude reference to how different people respond to the thread topic?

the sentence in relation to segregation appears to suggest that it is ok to marginalise minorities as they like it, you rationalise that by expressing that they refuse to integrate.
I do not accept that personally, however I feel that is a topic for another thread as it is drawing the conversation further and further away from the discussion here.

[Kizzy]

I just went back and checked, there was around 8 posts deleted in this thread none of them were Kizzys though

Thanks to you both for highlighting that for me :hug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

I just went back and checked, there was around 8 posts deleted in this thread none of them were Kizzys though

best delete about 8 of Kizzy's to balance this?

or 16?


:smug:

[Cherie]

No I don't believe I did misinterpret your post, if deleted posts were still in evidence it would back that up :hehe:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Niamh.;9691287]I just went back and checked, there was around 8 posts deleted in this thread none of them were Kizzys though

Thanks to you both for highlighting that for me :hug:


Sorry Ladies, I never specified that it was Kizzys post that was deleted, in fact it was another deleted post that would indicate that I didn't misinterpret Kizzy's original intention.

[Kizzy]

No I don't believe I did misinterpret your post, if deleted posts were still in evidence it would back that up :hehe:






Sorry Ladies, I never specified that it was Kizzys post that was deleted, in fact it was another deleted post that would indicate that I didn't misinterpret Kizzy's original intention.

Eh how could someone elses post prove you did misinterpret me if all mine are here?
Unless someone deleted their own post as I had blown their cock eyed theory out of the water and they were embarrassed I don't understand how that could happen.

[Kizzy]

best delete about 8 of Kizzy's to balance this?

or 16?


:smug:

Censorship?... Authoritarianism begins :/

[Cherie]

[QUOTE=Cherie;9691304]

Eh how could someone elses post prove you did misinterpret me if all mine are here?
Unless someone deleted their own post as I had blown their cock eyed theory out of the water and they were embarrassed I don't understand how that could happen.

omg Kizzy can you just stop, they agreed with my post, it was deleted as they sort of insulted you I guess, and I would imagine you were the one that reported it as I can't imagine anyone else would have been bothered, not responding to you again on this as it is getting a bit stupid now in all honesty, so carry on making posts about it if you must

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;9691312]

omg Kizzy can you just stop, they agreed with my post, it was deleted as they sort of insulted you I guess, and I would imagine you were the one that reported it as I can't imagine anyone else would have been bothered, not responding to you again on this as it is getting a bit stupid now in all honesty, so carry on making posts about it if you must

Yes I sort of must.. Because I didn't report it, I had no idea there had been posts removed, I'm not surprised I was insulted because it appears to be the norm recently ..as seen here.

You did misinterprat me as I have explained several times over, If you want any clarification in relation to my posts then ask but referring to random removed insults as proof is a weak argument.

[jet]

[QUOTE=Cherie;9691304]

Eh how could someone elses post prove you did misinterpret me if all mine are here?
Unless someone deleted their own post as I had blown their cock eyed theory out of the water and they were embarrassed I don't understand how that could happen.

No, I didn't delete any of my posts Kizzy...and the theory wasn't mine, it was part of one of many I studied back in the day in uni for my degree and which I partially agree with. That's why I said to TS 'What do you think of the theory'? and not 'Listen, this is what I think'. I thought 'what do you think of the theory' would be understood, but obviously not by you.
And no, you didn't 'blow it out of the water'. In fact your over - reaction of the little bit I posted of it makes me suspect it touched a nerve.

[Alf]

I just went back and checked, there was around 8 posts deleted in this thread none of them were Kizzys thoughBurn them books.

[Kizzy]

[QUOTE=Kizzy;9691312]

No, I didn't delete any of my posts Kizzy...and the theory wasn't mine, it was part of one of many I studied back in the day in uni for my degree and which I partially agree with. That's why I said to TS 'What do you think of the theory'? and not 'Listen, this is what I think'. I thought 'what do you think of the theory' would be understood, but obviously not by you.
And no, you didn't 'blow it out of the water'. In fact your over - reaction of the little bit I posted of it makes me suspect it touched a nerve.

We were arguing a point in relation to a post Livia made, therefore whatever posts you've made or had deleted are entirely irrelevant to that portion of the discussion.

[arista]

Let's face it, a lot of people are going to consider this to be racist and I think most reasonable people will know that, even if they don't necessarily agree. With that in mind, should people be more culturally sensitive when arranging events like this?


Yes its Another Nation.

[Cherie]

Maybe Niamh can confirm there is a deleted post from Jet that refers to the conversation Kizzy and I were having, just to clear the issue up :hee:

[Niamh.]

Maybe Niamh can confirm there is a deleted post from Jet that refers to the conversation Kizzy and I were having, just to clear the issue up :hee:

By insulting Kizzy yes, that's why it was deleted. What are you even arguing/disagreeing over? :suspect:

[Cherie]

By insulting Kizzy yes, that's why it was deleted. What are you even arguing/disagreeing over? :suspect

its all in the thread Niamh, I am not arguing over anything, Kizzy is disputing that a post has been deleted

[Niamh.]

its all in the thread Niamh, I am not arguing over anything, Kizzy is disputing that a post has been deleted

She disputed that a post of hers was deleted is what i read

[Cherie]

[QUOTE=Cherie;9691304]

Eh how could someone elses post prove you did misinterpret me if all mine are here?
Unless someone deleted their own post as I had blown their cock eyed theory out of the water and they were embarrassed I don't understand how that could happen.

[QUOTE=jet;9691855]

We were arguing a point in relation to a post Livia made, therefore whatever posts you've made or had deleted are entirely irrelevant to that portion of the discussion.

She disputed that a post of hers was deleted is what i read

because she is still disputing it even after I clarified that I was not referring to any of her posts being deleted, she misread my post as did you :idc:

[Niamh.]

omg Cherie can you quote properly :fist: I didn't read your post at all, i read hers, i haven't been following whatever you are arguing over

[bots]

and now we have the quote police:worry:

[Niamh.]

and now we have the quote police:worry:

It's a pet peeve of mine :hehe:

[Crimson Dynamo]

[QUOTE= :hehe:[/QUOTE0)

Niamh.;9692210]It's a pet peeve of mine


why?

[Niamh.]

[QUOTE= :hehe:[/QUOTE0)

Niamh.;9692210]It's a pet peeve of mine


why?



https://media.tenor.com/images/585d6a8c9a1692d51ba8058d8f20d058/tenor.gif

[Kizzy]

its all in the thread Niamh, I am not arguing over anything, Kizzy is disputing that a post has been deleted

Nope I'm not, the initial disagreement was when you stated that Livia did not speak for the entire Jewish community in her post, the whole point of my post prior to that was she didn't ....however you misinterpreted it to suggest I had said she did speak for all.

I neither know nor care about any deleted posts that Jet made as it bears no relevance to this issue.

Here is the misunderstanding.... Can you see where you went wrong, look at the rhetorical question I posed it might give you a clue.


I went to a fancy dress party where someone was dressed up as a member of the SS. I was not insulted.

And you speak for the entire Jewish community?
.



I don't speak for the whole Jewish community as you intimate in your last post.

you insinuated she was speaking for all Jews

[Livia]

Nope I'm not, the initial disagreement was when you stated that Livia did not speak for the entire Jewish community in her post, the whole point of my post prior to that was she didn't ....however you misinterpreted it to suggest I had said she did speak for all.

I neither know nor care about any deleted posts that Jet made as it bears no relevance to this issue.

Here is the misunderstanding.... Can you see where you went wrong, look at the rhetorical question I posed it might give you a clue.

https://i.giphy.com/media/igR5863TALcSk/giphy.webp

[Kizzy]

]

https://i.giphy.com/media/igR5863TALcSk/giphy.webp

This is serious debates, it deserved serious consideration
https://31.media.tumblr.com/b235227b90189daadbd8faaed1f02b47/tumblr_n4cf3zzI2F1ttovp4o1_400.gif

[Beso]

]



This is serious debates, it deserved serious consideration
https://31.media.tumblr.com/b235227b90189daadbd8faaed1f02b47/tumblr_n4cf3zzI2F1ttovp4o1_400.gif



Who dat...hubbahibba

[Niamh.]

That's Rihanna

[user104658]

Who dat...hubbahibba

Kizzy doing blackface.

[Cherie]

A rhetorical question, who knew

[Kizzy]

A rhetorical question, who knew

And you've never heard of a rhetorical question?...

*To clarify that does not literally mean you've never heard of a rhetorical question, or that you are speaking on behalf of all Zulus, Jews or the Chinese.... Hang on! how did the Chinese get in on this discussion? :/

[Beso]

Kizzy doing blackface.

You know how to get a guy flaccid.

[Cherie]

And you've never heard of a rhetorical question?...

*To clarify that does not literally mean you've never heard of a rhetorical question, or that you are speaking on behalf of all Zulus, Jews or the Chinese.... Hang on! how did the Chinese get in on this discussion? :/

was the rhetorical question necessary given people can only speak for themselves unless you are PM or the Queen in which case you speak for the nation :smug:

[user104658]

unless you are PM or the Queen in which case you speak for the nation :smug:

:hmph: I think ****ing not.

[Cherie]

:hmph: I think ****ing not.

:laugh: would you be saying that if it were Jeremy in the hot seat

[user104658]

[emoji23] would you be saying that if it were Jeremy in the hot seatNo one speaks for me but me Cherie you see, not he, not she, not a bee or a flea... Just me :hmph:

[Niamh.]

Well I think I speak for the whole forum when I say

https://img.gifglobe.com/grabs/fatherted/S03E04/gif/AKuJ4vSNQQER.gif

[Cherie]

Well I think I speak for the whole forum when I say

https://img.gifglobe.com/grabs/fatherted/S03E04/gif/AKuJ4vSNQQER.gif

just rude, who are we bothering :hmph:

[Niamh.]

just rude, who are we bothering :hmph:

:hehe:

[Kizzy]

was the rhetorical question necessary given people can only speak for themselves unless you are PM or the Queen in which case you speak for the nation :smug:

Is this a rhetorical question? There's no question mark...

[user104658]

Come on now children, this thread was going better let's not turn it into grammar / punctuation wars.

[Kizzy]

Come on now children, this thread was going better let's not turn it into grammar / punctuation wars.

There are standards to maintain, if I have to be PM before I can pose a rhetorical question you better believe I'm ensuring nobody is slipping on the basics.
https://78.media.tumblr.com/4ff3f608c2b7ec7a43216c8ff5f40902/tumblr_oq8ya1aNbM1vbztkpo1_500.gif

[Livia]

Come on now children, this thread was going better let's not turn it into grammar / punctuation wars.

When reason fails, you have to have somewhere to go, I'm told...

[user104658]

When reason fails, you have to have somewhere to go, I'm told...Is it "heck"?

[Kizzy]

When reason fails, you have to have somewhere to go, I'm told...

Aw poor Cherie, she wasn't to know us mere plebs are entitled free rein of all grammatical devices!

[Livia]

Is it "heck"?

Jews don't believe in heck. To quote Howard Wolowitz, we have acid reflux instead.

[Niamh.]

Closing this now, I think it's run it's course.