Monthly expenditure... all necessary?

[Kizzy]

The thread on putting yourself in debt at Christmas got me thinking then I saw this article about pre-packed sandwiches.

'Millennial couples can get a foot on the property ladder in just five years if they stop playing the Lottery and start making their own sandwiches, an estate agent has claimed.

Singling out six “luxuries” generation rent need to cut back on, Strutt & Parker claimed that they could save £64,560 towards a deposit to their first house

Taking their own lunch to work rather than buying it on the high street could save £2,576 a year, while stopping the lottery tickets could claw back another £832'.

*Ignores the urge to mention student debt*

This made me wonder what other expenses are there that we don't really need? Speaking to colleagues who appear to be really stressed about money have what I consider to be unnecessary outgoings, for example one pays £90 for sky TV monthly, another pays car finance and £200 insurance per month.

It seems strange that when we a juggling debt how it isn't always easy to differentiate what we want and what we need is debt inevitable to have a 'normal' life? Are you paying monthly for something that you could quite easily live without?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/millennials-property-ladder-sandwiches-housing-homeowners-lottery-generation-a8056996.html

[Cherie]

This is one of my pet rants, :laugh: a lot of money is spent on stuff we don't actually need, like the latest upgrade to a phone or TV subscriptions for channels that are never watched, coffee is another one, too many clothes (I am guilty of this), shoes (me), handbags (me), I have a friend whose daughter lives with her and wants to move out who has just spent 800.00 on a phone, if you are happy with your lot fine, but if you want to save, sacrifices have to be made, property is expensive but on the other hand there is a lot of help out there now to get on the ladder that wasn't around 20 years ago :hmph: and don't get me started on the amount of tat that is bought Christmas :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

no

its all spreadsheeted out and the TL has accounts for bills, food, utilities etc and takes her own lunch in etc

i check my account every day so know what goes in and out and what is not needed

[Crimson Dynamo]

that said i would not like to think about the "dad can you lend me £30 till Tuesday etc that i never get back" totals and all the pound coins robbed from the car and my change dish

:omgno:

[Cal.]

This is so ridiculous. Somebody's already worked it out and it'd take like 100 years still. It was a lot easier to get onto the property ladder years ago. :idc:

[Cal.]

Oh wait I thought hat he literally just said we had to stop buying ourselves food for dinner not meaning luxuries in general. I suppose that's fair enough. My mum and dad could save like £15 a month just cancelling Netflix and Apple Music, for example.

[Kazanne]

We do all buy things that are not a necessity,for example,cigarettes,booze,video consoles,games,having the best smartphones,Sky/Virgin/Netflix etc TV, even takeaways etc, we can cook our own food we can make our own sandwiches,it's nice to have the luxuries in life and even better if you can afford them.

[Kizzy]

I don't agree with the advice that a city break is given up, you get holiday pay...where are you meant to go? Stay in and look a 4 walls?...
It's counterproductive not to take a break, all work and no play and all that :/

[Niamh.]

that said i would not like to think about the "dad can you lend me £30 till Tuesday etc that i never get back" totals and all the pound coins robbed from the car and my change dish

:omgno:

:laugh:

The kids stuff is a big expenditure, Karate lessons (which luke is doing 4 a week of atm) soccer, yoga, supervised study in school, Maths grinds etc etc

But all those things are good for them

[Crimson Dynamo]

:laugh:

The kids stuff is a big expenditure, Karate lessons (which luke is doing 4 a week of atm) soccer, yoga, supervised study in school, Maths grinds etc etc

But all those things are good for them

and petrol to go to these places. Smallest boy LT has a football match on Sunday and its a 70 mile round trip and that is not uncommon due to the size of the county. Plus dont get me started on bloody horses.

:oh:

[Niamh.]

and petrol to go to these places. Smallest boy LT has a football match on Sunday and its a 70 mile round trip and that is not uncommon due to the size of the counry. Plus dont get me started on bloody horses.

:oh:

Oh yeah definitely, also emotional distress of being in the car 90% of my "free" time

[Cherie]

This is so ridiculous. Somebody's already worked it out and it'd take like 100 years still. It was a lot easier to get onto the property ladder years ago. :idc:


this is totally defeatist, times have changed, no point harping back to the good old days when property prices were low and interest rates were high, there are help to buy schemes, Isa's, shared ownership, low interest rates, time to get proactive instead of moaning :nono::hehe:

[Crimson Dynamo]

drag ha

[Cherie]

drag ha

:laugh:oh it was was so much easier back then... blah blah, no it wasn't, many people didn't have the luxury of living at home so they could save but some managed it anyway :idc:

[DemolitionRed]

@Plus dont get me started on bloody horses.

If you love em enough they're worth every penny.

[Kazanne]

Oh yeah definitely, also emotional distress of being in the car 90% of my "free" time

Oh yes Niamh,I have that one too,I feel like a taxi service sometimes.:wavey:

[Niamh.]

Oh yes Niamh,I have that one too,I feel like a taxi service sometimes.:wavey:

atleast if you were a Taxi service you'd get paid :oh:

[bots]

it's never been easy to get on the property ladder. Unless you are very fortunate, people have always had to make sacrifices to achieve their goal.

For example, when I got my first mortgage, you had to have been with a building society for years, regularly saving with them before they would entertain the idea of giving you a mortgage. You had to prove that you were a fine upstanding citizen.

It was Maggie Thatcher that shook up the system and actually made it possible for everyone to achieve their goals, she did a fantastic job of equalizing opportunity for everyone, and what thanks did she get for it? None.

[Crimson Dynamo]

mind you we were food shopping the other night with the wee thing you scan the items with and it gives you a running total and we were complimenting each other at getting to the soup bit still at like 60 quid, one sweep past the drink aisle and we were at 125

:omgno:

mind you that is essentials

:hmph:

so what we did was we bought less expensive kitchen roll

we are not made of bloody money :fist:

[Cherie]

This is so ridiculous. Somebody's already worked it out and it'd take like 100 years still. It was a lot easier to get onto the property ladder years ago. :idc:

what is this based on buying a mansion :laugh: what does the average one bed flat cost in the UK, outside London because that is another issue altogether, a one bed flat in Norwich is about 100k is that out of peoples reach :suspect:

[Kizzy]

what is this based on buying a mansion :laugh: what does the average one bed flat cost in the UK, outside London because that is another issue altogether, a one bed flat in Norwich is about 100k is that out of peoples reach :suspect:

Educate yourself on the difference between then and now, not that that has any baring on the thread topic to be fair. People had nights out and spent money while saving then too it has no baring whatsoever on the cost of the property they are saving toward.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/mortgages/baby-boomer-vs-gen-y-homebuying-in-1982-compared-to-2016/

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2462753/How-items-cost-risen-line-house-prices.html

[Cherie]

Educate yourself on the difference between then and now, not that that has any baring on the thread topic to be fair. People had nights out and spent money while saving then too it has no baring whatsoever on the cost of the property they are saving toward.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/mortgages/baby-boomer-vs-gen-y-homebuying-in-1982-compared-to-2016/

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/mortgageshome/article-2462753/How-items-cost-risen-line-house-prices.html

I don't need to educate myself on other peoples experiences, I have my own tyvm, and our eldest is trying to get his own place, we can hark back to the 80s all you like what about negative equity and the recession in the 90s :idc:

how is your house purchase going btw?

[Kizzy]

I don't need to educate myself on other peoples experiences, I have my own tyvm, and our eldest is trying to get his own place, we can hark back to the 80s all you like what about negative equity and the recession in the 90s :idc:

how is your house purchase going btw?

Then why ask Cal how much flats cost if you don't want other peoples experiences as you have your own?

The fact is wages to house prices are beyond disproportionate, yes there are more schemes now as debt is seen as good, the more debt you are in the better that is a major difference.

It's going well but then I'm buying my post war prefab for 52k

[Cherie]

Then why ask Cal how much flats cost if you don't want other peoples experiences as you have your own?

The fact is wages to house prices are beyond disproportionate, yes there are more schemes now as debt is seen as good, the more debt you are in the better that is a major difference.

It's going well but then I'm buying my post war prefab for 52k

I asked him how much the average one bed was outside London based on his claim that it would take 100 years to save a deposit!

Please for you :love:

you can thank Maggie for that :tongue:

[Livia]

Up here in Norfolk they're building low cost houses for people who were born in the area and have been priced out. I'm not sure how they stand legally, to be honest. I can't imagine living in London and being told, you can't buy those cheap houses because they're only for people born here.

[bots]

Up here in Norfolk they're building low cost houses for people who were born in the area and have been priced out. I'm not sure how they stand legally, to be honest. I can't imagine living in London and being told, you can't buy those cheap houses because they're only for people born here.

take the ukip approach and charge them 50k out of towners fee :laugh:

[Livia]

take the ukip approach and charge them 50k out of towners fee :laugh:

Yeah, this is Norfolk though. Would anyone pay a £50k premium to live in this third world county?

[Marsh.]

Oh wait I thought hat he literally just said we had to stop buying ourselves food for dinner not meaning luxuries in general. I suppose that's fair enough. My mum and dad could save like £15 a month just cancelling Netflix and Apple Music, for example.
Netflix and Freeview instead of overpriced sky. That's my lot.

[Kizzy]

I asked him how much the average one bed was outside London based on his claim that it would take 100 years to save a deposit!

Please for you :love:

you can thank Maggie for that :tongue:

How long would you suggest if you are paying private rent on minimum wage?

Yes thank you maggie these houses were due for demolition 25yrs after they were built but you saw the value in them and like most I can't afford anything else.

[Marsh.]

and petrol to go to these places. Smallest boy LT has a football match on Sunday and its a 70 mile round trip and that is not uncommon due to the size of the county. Plus dont get me started on bloody horses.

:oh:
That's what you get for living in the middle of nowhere.

Kill two birds with one stone and use the horses to travel.

[Marsh.]

Then why ask Cal how much flats cost if you don't want other peoples experiences as you have your own?

The fact is wages to house prices are beyond disproportionate, yes there are more schemes now as debt is seen as good, the more debt you are in the better that is a major difference.

It's going well but then I'm buying my post war prefab for 52k
That's been the most baffling part of adulthood for me. You need a record of borrowing money in order to borrow money. :joker:

They just want us in debt.

[Cherie]

Up here in Norfolk they're building low cost houses for people who were born in the area and have been priced out. I'm not sure how they stand legally, to be honest. I can't imagine living in London and being told, you can't buy those cheap houses because they're only for people born here.

:oh: they do this in Ireland you can't build on a site in certain areas unless you can prove you were born there.

[Cherie]

How long would you suggest if you are paying private rent on minimum wage?

Yes thank you maggie these houses were due for demolition 25yrs after they were built but you saw the value in them and like most I can't afford anything else.

well you could turn that round and say how long if you are living at home? and given the stats support most people are living with their parents well into their 20sh

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/jan/21/record-numbers-young-adults-living-with-parents

I never claimed it would work for everyone, for a start not everyone wants the responsibility of owning their own home and this has always been the case, and if you are not living at home and on minimum wage then it is tough, but its not tough for everyone which seems to be the general outcry

[Cherie]

That's been the most baffling part of adulthood for me. You need a record of borrowing money in order to borrow money. :joker:

They just want us in debt.


Yeah that is crazy, my son is paying his own phone bills and stuff as he couldn't get a student account because they was no record of him paying any bills :umm2: and this was with the building society he had saved his money in...stupido

[Josy]

I think a lot of these things that are described as luxuries really aren't depending on who you talk to, if people are out working hard to pay for this and want to keep doing so to enjoy stuff then that's their choice really

[DemolitionRed]

It was William Gladstone's policies that brought about our first council houses in 1893 and by the late 1970s more than two-fifths or just over 40% of the British population enjoyed local authority housing.
Then Thatcher comes along and starts the long road of dismantling it all. Now we have 23% of our nation renting from private landlords (That's double of what it was in 2003) and whilst the numbers steadily increase, the hope of ever being able to afford to buy decreases.

It appears we have gone full circle. Back to Victorian era where people privately rented and few could afford to buy.

So many people are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Families units are divided because of affordability in housing. Young couples who want to settle down and perhaps start a family often have to move hundreds of miles away from their parents and grandparents.

[Northern Monkey]

All kinds of **** tbh.Petrol and insurance for a sporty car I don’t need,Cable TV,Movies,Netflix,Lottery the list goes on.

[Cherie]

It was William Gladstone's policies that brought about our first council houses in 1893 and by the late 1970s more than two-fifths or just over 40% of the British population enjoyed local authority housing.
Then Thatcher comes along and starts the long road of dismantling it all. Now we have 23% of our nation renting from private landlords (That's double of what it was in 2003) and whilst the numbers steadily increase, the hope of ever being able to afford to buy decreases.

It appears we have gone full circle. Back to Victorian era where people privately rented and few could afford to buy.

So many people are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Families units are divided because of affordability in housing. [B]Young couples who want to settle down and perhaps start a family often have to move hundreds of miles away from their parents and grandparents.

Yep I had to move to another country in in the 90s so what is new?

[Cherie]

All kinds of **** tbh.Petrol and insurance for a sporty car I don’t need,Cable TV,Movies,Netflix,Lottery the list goes on.

:omgno: early mid life crisis

[DemolitionRed]

I think a lot of these things that are described as luxuries really aren't depending on who you talk to, if people are out working hard to pay for this and want to keep doing so to enjoy stuff then that's their choice really

It should be. Unfortunately we live in a consumer society, where from a young age we are all encouraged to spend, spend, spend. Borrowing is cheap and encouraged... debt is what a lot of people are living off.

[DemolitionRed]

[/B]
Yep I had to move to another country in in the 90s so what is new?

Whats new is, its happening more and more. House prices started to rocket in the late 80s and have continued rocketing ever since.

And Londons and its outskirts are a big place. should all the young lower earners move out of London, Surrey, and Herefordshire? and how far away do they need to move before they can afford the most basic of roofs over their heads?

Think about what those families give up.

[Cherie]

Whats new is, its happening more and more. House prices started to rocket in the late 80s and have continued rocketing ever since.

And Londons and its outskirts are a big place. should all the young lower earners move out of London, Surrey, and Herefordshire? and how far away do they need to move before they can afford the most basic of roofs over their heads?

Think about what those families give up.

Your post seemed to suggest that having to move away from families is a new thing, it has been thus for decades, it is never a good thing but sometimes it is just the only way people can get on, I am waiting on our London Mayor to fulfil his promise of affordable housing

http://www.sadiq.london/homes_for_londoners_manifesto

[Northern Monkey]

:omgno: early mid life crisis

Lol more like never grew up.I’ve always had cars that go faster than i need.Having a family should’ve changed that but.... nope.

[Kizzy]

well you could turn that round and say how long if you are living at home? and given the stats support most people are living with their parents well into their 20sh

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/jan/21/record-numbers-young-adults-living-with-parents

I never claimed it would work for everyone, for a start not everyone wants the responsibility of owning their own home and this has always been the case, and if you are not living at home and on minimum wage then it is tough, but its not tough for everyone which seems to be the general outcry

Why turn it around, don't you have an answer for my scenario?
They are having to yes because there's no other alternative, if you have several kids that's going to get very difficult if that's an even an option for a start to live with parents, you need parents.

[Vicky.]

I spend so much money on crap. I know I do. It just seems to all go though. I probably spend at least a tenner a day in useless stuff like sweets, magazines and such.

Always thought I did well only spending a hundred quid a fortnight on shopping. Then wondered how I was so skint. Turns out once corner shop crap is all paid for too I actually spend like 120 or so per week :S

[DemolitionRed]

Why turn it around, don't you have an answer for my scenario?
They are having to yes because there's no other alternative, if you have several kids that's going to get very difficult if that's an even an option for a start to live with parents, you need parents.

good point. Not everyone has a backup system. Not all kids have accommodating parents.

[smudgie]

Some kids just love living with their parents, we have told son we are downsizing when we move to bungalow and time he flys the nest, then beggar me our daughter has decided she would like a stint at home:hehe:

[Cherie]

good point. Not everyone has a backup system. Not all kids have accommodating parents.

No body said everyone did

[Cherie]

Some kids just love living with their parents, we have told son we are downsizing when we move to bungalow and time he flys the nest, then beggar me our daughter has decided she would like a stint at home:hehe:

Is he hanging on by his fingernails Smudgie :laugh:

[Kizzy]

No body said everyone did

So your scenario is basically only for middle class 2.4 children families, what about the rest then?

[Cherie]

So your scenario is basically only for middle class 2.4 children families, what about the rest then?

Oh I didn't realise only middle class parents owned homes will you be middle class when your purchase goes through? I also had no idea that parents who rent chuck their kids out as soon as they can

[smudgie]

Is he hanging on by his fingernails Smudgie :laugh:

He is.
I have told him it's a two bedroomed bungalow with a lovely dining room*cough*
Only half a fib as once we convert the garage to an en-suite for me then that third bedroom will become part of a kitchen/diner extension.:laugh:

[Cherie]

He is.
I have told him it's a two bedroomed bungalow with a lovely dining room*cough*
Only half a fib as once we convert the garage to an en-suite for me then that third bedroom will become part of a kitchen/diner extension.:laugh:

Time for him to fly the nest :hehe:

[Kizzy]

Oh I didn't realise only middle class parents owned homes will you be middle class when your purchase goes through? I also had no idea that parents who rent chuck their kids out as soon as they can

It's not just owning homes but effectively supporting grown up children, no I won't I will never be as being a homeowner doesn't make you middle class :/

[Wizard.]

Yes because I’ll just stop buying nice things that help me enjoy life just to save up for a house which will carry on increasing in price as I save or I could die just before I get to enjoy it then I suffered for nothing

[DemolitionRed]

It's not just owning homes but effectively supporting grown up children, no I won't I will never be as being a homeowner doesn't make you middle class :/

Hmm... that's not what Margaret Thatcher said :think:

[Cherie]

It's not just owning homes but effectively supporting grown up children, no I won't I will never be as being a homeowner doesn't make you middle class :/

Letting you children live at home on minimal rent so they can save for a deposit is hardly "effectively supporting" it's enabling, they can still contribute to bills and food, and I will do it so as my kids don't line greedy landlords pockets if I can, if that makes me middle class so be it :laugh: I've worked my butt off to get the title :/

[DemolitionRed]

I've got this American friend who works in France and she tells us all she's middle upper class. :fan:

[Marsh.]

Letting you children live at home on minimal rent so they can save for a deposit is hardly "effectively supporting" it's enabling, they can still contribute to bills and food, and I will do it so as my kids don't line greedy landlords pockets if I can, if that makes me middle class so be it [emoji23] I've worked my butt off to get the title :/
"Minimal rent" is just that though "minimal rent". [emoji23] They'd be saving the money that would otherwise go to a landlord but still paying their own way everywhere else.

Someone moving back in with their parents doesn't mean they revert to being a child and pay for nothing.

[rusticgal]

that said i would not like to think about the "dad can you lend me £30 till Tuesday etc that i never get back" totals and all the pound coins robbed from the car and my change dish

:omgno:

Lol...same with my boys..:shrug:

[Kizzy]

Letting you children live at home on minimal rent so they can save for a deposit is hardly "effectively supporting" it's enabling, they can still contribute to bills and food, and I will do it so as my kids don't line greedy landlords pockets if I can, if that makes me middle class so be it :laugh: I've worked my butt off to get the title :/

Well having the means and the room to enable them then, again it's not everyones experience. So again Cals experience that prompted his comment that it would take him 100yrs as as viable for him if doesn't have that safety net isn't it?

[rusticgal]

My sons average wage amounts to what I earned working full time back in 1984...and he isn't on the 'minimum wage'. How does that equate?. I feel for the youngsters these days..getting a mortgage is tough and almost impossible unless they inherit or have help from parents. I have always told my boys to enjoy their 20's whilst they have no commitments. Life is precious, who knows what's round the corner..life is for living. We get one life so make the most of it.
That may sound irresponsible but I have seen many make sacrifices only to find tragedy deny them the chance to reap their rewards...

[Cherie]

This is so ridiculous. Somebody's already worked it out and it'd take like 100 years still. It was a lot easier to get onto the property ladder years ago. :idc:

Well having the means and the room to enable them then, again it's not everyones experience. So again Cals experience that prompted his comment that it would take him 100yrs as as viable for him if doesn't have that safety net isn't it?

That's what he actually said, someone's worked it out, everyone's story is different I can't solve the housing crises single handedly! I was simply pointing out people need to look at alternative ways to get on the ladder, no point harking to the good old days , alot of the Asian families I know who have way more than 2.4 kids and are far from middle class help their kids by letting them live in even after they are married and they don't always have the room either!

[Cherie]

"Minimal rent" is just that though "minimal rent". [emoji23] They'd be saving the money that would otherwise go to a landlord but still paying their own way everywhere else.

Someone moving back in with their parents doesn't mean they revert to being a child and pay for nothing.

Indeed

[Cherie]

I've got this American friend who works in France and she tells us all she's middle upper class. :fan:

What even is class any more

[smudgie]

What even is class any more

God only knows...or even cares:shrug:

[Kizzy]

That's what he actually said, someone's worked it out, everyone's story is different I can't solve the housing crises single handedly! I was simply pointing out people need to look at alternative ways to get on the ladder, no point harking to the good old days , alot of the Asian families I know who have way more than 2.4 kids and are far from middle class help their kids by letting them live in even after they are married

Yes Rusticgals worked it out and wages are for some at 1984 levels I would wager house prices have quadrupled plus since then, more the further south you go.
Whether it was his personal circs or someone else it doesn't matter the fact is you scoffed at the concept of it taking some people 100yrs to save for a home of their own, my feeling is they wouldn't be far wrong.

Nobody asked you to solve the housing crisis have they, as you say everyones reality is different. You were the one harking to the old days Cherie, inferring people could afford a home as they lived with parents and saved :/
Why are you bringing Asians up... What tangent are we flying off on now?

[Kizzy]

What even is class any more

If you have an 'Eternal beau' collection that is more than 80% complete you're middle class.

[Wizard.]

I will never stop shopping at M&S and Waitrose I love living in excess luxury

[smudgie]

I will never stop shopping at M&S and Waitrose I love living in excess luxury

You can't beat good quality.

[Cherie]

Yes Rusticgals worked it out and wages are for some at 1984 levels I would wager house prices have quadrupled plus since then, more the further south you go.
Whether it was his personal circs or someone else it doesn't matter the fact is you scoffed at the concept of it taking some people 100yrs to save for a home of their own, my feeling is they wouldn't be far wrong.

Nobody asked you to solve the housing crisis have they, as you say everyones reality is different. You were the one harking to the old days Cherie, inferring people could afford a home as they lived with parents and saved :/
Why are you bringing Asians up... What tangent are we flying off on now?


I didn't scoff I just said that wasn't everyone reality and because someone had worked it out didn't make it true for everyone, I'm bringing Asians up as you said my scenario only covered middle class earners with 2.4 kids, when clearly that is not the case, and yes people can save for a deposit by not paying rent are you saying they can't? A one bed flat is 1,000 a month round here are you seriously saying that saving that amount of money wouldn't add up after a few years? I don't know why you find things so hard to follow, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

[Cherie]

God only knows...or even cares:shrug:

I certainly don't!

[smudgie]

I honestly don't have a clue what my monthly expenditure is, I do know it varies depending on how I feel:shrug:

[Marsh.]

Cherie and Kizzy. Never change.
:love:

[bots]

The majority of people have finite budgets and its entirely up to individuals how they choose to prioritise and spend their surplus cash. If someone wants to blow it on a nice car, that's their choice, if someone wants a nice phone, thats their choice. If someone wants to save for a house, that's their choice. It's been the same for generations. We all have our own priorities and very few get all they want handed to them on a plate

[Cherie]

The majority of people have finite budgets and its entirely up to individuals how they choose to prioritise and spend their surplus cash. If someone wants to blow it on a nice car, that's their choice, if someone wants a nice phone, thats their choice. If someone wants to save for a house, that's their choice. It's been the same for generations. We all have our own priorities and very few get all they want handed to them on a plate


:clap2:

[Kizzy]

I didn't scoff I just said that wasn't everyone reality and because someone had worked it out didn't make it true for everyone, I'm bringing Asians up as you said my scenario only covered middle class earners with 2.4 kids, when clearly that is not the case, and yes people can save for a deposit by not paying rent are you saying they can't? A one bed flat is 1,000 a month round here are you seriously saying that saving that amount of money wouldn't add up after a few years? I don't know why you find things so hard to follow, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

If families lived as many Asians do and pool their resources in their entirety then yes you could have more than one at home, provided of course you have the room.
Traditionally when we have our young adults living at home they pay very little or nothing.

Is £1000 a month to rent or buy? There's no need to start being rude, who on earth can afford to save 1k a month even if you were living with your parents is there, seriously... what would you have to be making in your opinion in order to save that amount?

[Cherie]

If families lived as many Asians do and pool their resources in their entirety then yes you could have more than one at home, provided of course you have the room.
Traditionally when we have our young adults living at home they pay very little or nothing.

Is £1000 a month to rent or buy? There's no need to start being rude, who on earth can afford to save 1k a month even if you were living with your parents is there, seriously... what would you have to be making in your opinion in order to save that amount?

1,000 a month to rent! you would pay no where near that on a 25 year mortgage, what you save will depend on what you earn but if as a couple you could afford 1k a month in rent then you could save that if parents were willing to take you back for a few years? , 25K a year is probably an average wage in London so it is achievable, again with the rider not everyone will be earning this because I feel I have to clarify everything that I say

[Kizzy]

The majority of people have finite budgets and its entirely up to individuals how they choose to prioritise and spend their surplus cash. If someone wants to blow it on a nice car, that's their choice, if someone wants a nice phone, thats their choice. If someone wants to save for a house, that's their choice. It's been the same for generations. We all have our own priorities and very few get all they want handed to them on a plate

That's fair do's and perfectly obvious, however it doesn't detract from the fact that for many who traditionally would've been able to work and live (if frugally) and still save with their folks now cannot.
They have been totally priced out of the market.

[Toy Soldier]

If families lived as many Asians do and pool their resources in their entirety then yes you could have more than one at home, provided of course you have the room.
Traditionally when we have our young adults living at home they pay very little or nothing.

Is £1000 a month to rent or buy? There's no need to start being rude, who on earth can afford to save 1k a month even if you were living with your parents is there, seriously... what would you have to be making in your opinion in order to save that amount?

I dunno Kizzy, if I was living rent-and-bills-free that would already be £800 a month. If we got rid of the car and took insurance, upkeep and fuel out of the equation that would easily be closer to £1100. I'd also say that, realistically, if we dramatically tightened our belts we could easily save another £500 a month on top of that so that's £1100 a month without changing our lifestyle or £1600 a month if we became hermits.

And I'm certainly not "rich" or even that well off. Obviously the "living with parents" scenario isn't a realistic one with kids unless your parents have a mansion, BUT in theory, if we were a childless couple both working full time, we could live with parents and save that amount. It would be a nightmare but possible. I guess the point is - an absolutely massive chunk of most people's monthly budget is rent and utility bills. If you take those out of the equation, you actually can save a lot of money pretty quickly.

A friend of mine did it - him and his girlfriend (now wife) lived with her parents for nearly 2 years when they were in their mid 20's, and they were saving over £1000 a month for a deposit on a flat just with him on full time £9 an hour, and her 20-hours at minimum wage. And then they had a relative die and leave them over £70k which they used to buy a place outright so it was all pointless in the end :joker:... ... lucky bastard...

Of course, ALL of this hinges on whether people have parents who are well off enough to have the space for it, who actually WANT to do it, and also where everyone gets along well. The reality is, most people just don't have that.

[Kizzy]

1,000 a month to rent! you would pay no where near that on a 25 year mortgage, what you save will depend on what you earn but if as a couple you could afford 1k a month in rent then you could save that if parents were willing to take you back for a few years? , 25K a year is probably an average wage in London so it is achievable, again with the rider not everyone will be earning this because I feel I have to clarify everything that I say

As a couple... So there are two wages to consider now? I'm sure in cals calculation there was only one.

If we are discussing buying property why mention rental values?
You do have to clarify everything you say as you have intimated it's relatively simple ,even Sajid Javid knows it's nigh on impossible!


Sajid Javid pointed out that the average first-time buyer in London last year needed a deposit of more than £90,000.

'The communities secretary, Sajid Javid, has lambasted baby boomers who believe young people could afford a home if they cut back on nights out and avocados, saying such critics were out of touch with a broken housing system.

Javid warned that without urgent action to make homes more affordable, an entire generation could becomes rootless, and resentful of both capitalism and politicians.

His speech in Bristol came shortly after Theresa May visited a social housing estate in north London, as part of a concerted government push on the issue ahead of next week’s budget.

Javid had tough words for “baby boomers who have long since paid off their own mortgage” who believed there was no need to build more homes, saying they were “living in a different world”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/16/sajid-javid-defends-millennials-housing-market-avocados

[Toy Soldier]

That's fair do's and perfectly obvious, however it doesn't detract from the fact that for many who traditionally would've been able to work and live (if frugally) and still save with their folks now cannot.
They have been totally priced out of the market.

This is only really true in London & the SoE Kizzy... even the graph confirms that. Prices vs Income seem to be relatively stable otherwise, with the national average being skewed upwards by London + South. This graph from one of your own link confirms that:

https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2017/11/17/sdsdsdddd.png

In Scotland and the North, average prices have been hovering around 3 to 4 times average income since at least the early 80's. Obviously that also differs by area, e.g. Edinburgh can get very expensive, and the village I live in has basically no property under £100k, but the next village over has 2-bed flats going for £35k. Not particularly nice ones, but still. I've also seen 3 bed houses for as little as £45k, though admittedly they would need at least and other £10-15000 spent on them before living in them.

[Kizzy]

I dunno Kizzy, if I was living rent-and-bills-free that would already be £800 a month. If we got rid of the car and took insurance, upkeep and fuel out of the equation that would easily be closer to £1100. I'd also say that, realistically, if we dramatically tightened our belts we could easily save another £500 a month on top of that so that's £1100 a month without changing our lifestyle or £1600 a month if we became hermits.

And I'm certainly not "rich" or even that well off. Obviously the "living with parents" scenario isn't a realistic one with kids unless your parents have a mansion, BUT in theory, if we were a childless couple both working full time, we could live with parents and save that amount. It would be a nightmare but possible. I guess the point is - an absolutely massive chunk of most people's monthly budget is rent and utility bills. If you take those out of the equation, you actually can save a lot of money pretty quickly.

A friend of mine did it - him and his girlfriend (now wife) lived with her parents for nearly 2 years when they were in their mid 20's, and they were saving over £1000 a month for a deposit on a flat just with him on full time £9 an hour, and her 20-hours at minimum wage. And then they had a relative die and leave them over £70k which they used to buy a place outright so it was all pointless in the end :joker:... ... lucky bastard...

Of course, ALL of this hinges on whether people have parents who are well off enough to have the space for it, who actually WANT to do it, and also where everyone gets along well. The reality is, most people just don't have that.

If you took out the car how would you get to work?... If I lived on a desert island and ate nothing but foraged nuts and berries I could pay my house off in 5yrs ... Let's try keep it real eh?

[Cherie]

As a couple... So there are two wages to consider now? I'm sure in cals calculation there was only one.

If we are discussing buying property why mention rental values?
You do have to clarify everything you say as you have intimated it's relatively simple ,even Sajid Javid knows it's nigh on impossible!


Sajid Javid pointed out that the average first-time buyer in London last year needed a deposit of more than £90,000.

'The communities secretary, Sajid Javid, has lambasted baby boomers who believe young people could afford a home if they cut back on nights out and avocados, saying such critics were out of touch with a broken housing system.

Javid warned that without urgent action to make homes more affordable, an entire generation could becomes rootless, and resentful of both capitalism and politicians.

His speech in Bristol came shortly after Theresa May visited a social housing estate in north London, as part of a concerted government push on the issue ahead of next week’s budget.

Javid had tough words for “baby boomers who have long since paid off their own mortgage” who believed there was no need to build more homes, saying they were “living in a different world”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/16/sajid-javid-defends-millennials-housing-market-avocados


dear God, do I really have to explain that, it people can afford that on rent, if they no longer rent they can afford to save it...


He is talking about Central London and probably a house!, you can get a one bed flat in the burbs for 225,000 upwards, we all have to start somewhere right? unless of course you want to move straight into your forever home, how much is a one bed in the suburbs of Leeds?

[Toy Soldier]

If you took out the car how would you get to work?... If I lived on a desert island and ate nothing but foraged nuts and berries I could pay my house off in 5yrs ... Let's try keep it real eh?

OK so keep the car in the equation; if I removed my rent, utilities alone that's £800 a month, which means I could save up a £10k deposit in just over a year. I could also quite feasibly save another £50 a week (IF I didn't have kids) without really feeling it too much. How is that not "keeping it real"? Again I think you need to look properly at the graph, it's from your own telegraph link, and quite clearly shows that house prices related to income in MOST of the UK hasn't actually changed much at all since the 80's. It's only the London bubble where there is a real crisis in terms of the cost of property. Property prices across the rest of the UK aren't really the major problem. Increasing rent, increasing utilities ARE a problem because "being real" most adults CANNOT live with family, and therefore a huge chunk of their take home income goes on those things. Also, social housing stock is obviously a problem. Basically, the private rentals market and the council housing stock are ****ed. For those looking to buy, things are actually not that bad at all outside of that London bubble.

[Cherie]

If you took out the car how would you get to work?... If I lived on a desert island and ate nothing but foraged nuts and berries I could pay my house off in 5yrs ... Let's try keep it real eh?

He could get a bike, or a scooter :hee:

[Cherie]

OK so keep the car in the equation; if I removed my rent, utilities alone that's £800 a month, which means I could save up a £10k deposit in just over a year. I could also quite feasibly save another £50 a week (IF I didn't have kids) without really feeling it too much. How is that not "keeping it real"? Again I think you need to look properly at the graph, it's from your own telegraph link, and quite clearly shows that house prices related to income in MOST of the UK hasn't actually changed much at all since the 80's. It's only the London bubble where there is a real crisis in terms of the cost of property. Property prices across the rest of the UK aren't really the major problem. Increasing rent, increasing utilities ARE a problem because "being real" most adults CANNOT live with family, and therefore a huge chunk of their take home income goes on those things. Also, social housing stock is obviously a problem. Basically, the private rentals market and the council housing stock are ****ed. For those looking to buy, things are actually not that bad at all outside of that London bubble.


We looked in Norwich to buy a flat for our son as he is studying there and likes the City, he could have got a studio for 70,000 ish or a one bed for 110,000 over a 25 year mortgage would be less than the rent he would pay to a landlord, still thinking about it... need to take a deep breath and close my eyes to do it though :bawling:

[Toy Soldier]

He could get a bike, or a scooter :hee:

I have a bike :hmph:. I've cycled it in summer when feeling particularly healthy, but it's 8 miles and not really doable at 11pm in winter :joker:.

Then again, if I moved in with my dad it would be about 40 miles and if I moved in with my in-laws it would be about 270 miles. I don't think my legs are up to a 540 mile round trip tbh :(. I'm not 20 any more.

[Cherie]

I have a bike :hmph:. I've cycled it in summer when feeling particularly healthy, but it's 8 miles and not really doable at 11pm in winter :joker:.

Then again, if I moved in with my dad it would be about 40 miles and if I moved in with my in-laws it would be about 270 miles. I don't think my legs are up to a 540 mile round trip tbh :(. I'm not 20 any more.


whats the matter with the youth of today :fist:

[Toy Soldier]

[/B]

We looked in Norwich to buy a flat for our son as he is studying there and likes the City, he could have got a studio for 70,000 ish or a one bed for 110,000 over a 25 year mortgage would be less than the rent he would pay to a landlord, still thinking about it... need to take a deep breath and close my eyes to do it though :bawling:

I knew a few people at Uni whose parents bought property in the city for their kids to stay in. Dundee though so it's not very expensive. Most bought bigger places, 3 or 4 bedrooms, in their kids second year after they had friends from uni halls looking to rent - so basically the rent paid by the other students sharing would more or less cover the mortgage (plus the extra costs of being a landlord). After their kids graduated, some sold up and some kept the properties on as rental student accommodation.

Obviously not something that everyone is in a position to do, but for those who are in a financial position to be able to secure a decent mortgage, it makes a LOT of sense, especially with extra rooms to rent out.

[DemolitionRed]

The big problem is London, outer London and anything within a decent commuting distance of London. These areas all require a massive amount of blue collar workers and blue collar workers aren't going to bother with commuting fees when they can earn almost the same money working in the north. Why would blue collar workers cripple themselves with a 275k mortgage when they can have the same property in a different location for 75k? What this inevitably means is, we drive the workers we need in that area out of that area.

We need to forget about cheap buyable housing in London cos it aint going to happen. We recently had a new build of one and two-bed flats, built and advertised as affordable housing close to where we live. The one beds were put on the market for 275k and the 2 beds 300k. That isn't first time buyers affordable housing but its the best anyone's going to get if they want to remain in the same area they work.

We need more social housing in the London area. We need housing for the average blue collar wage earner because if we lose the labor, London will crumble.

[Cherie]

I knew a few people at Uni whose parents bought property in the city for their kids to stay in. Dundee though so it's not very expensive. Most bought bigger places, 3 or 4 bedrooms, in their kids second year after they had friends from uni halls looking to rent - so basically the rent paid by the other students sharing would more or less cover the mortgage (plus the extra costs of being a landlord). After their kids graduated, some sold up and some kept the properties on as rental student accommodation.

Obviously not something that everyone is in a position to do, but for those who are in a financial position to be able to secure a decent mortgage, it makes a LOT of sense, especially with extra rooms to rent out.

I know it makes sense, I'm just need to take the leap :laugh:

[Toy Soldier]

We need to forget about cheap buyable housing in London cos it aint going to happen. We recently had a new build of one and two-bed flats, built and advertised as affordable housing close to where we live. The one beds were put on the market for 275k and the 2 beds 300k. That isn't first time buyers affordable housing but its the best anyone's going to get if they want to remain in the same area they work.

We need more social housing in the London area. We need housing for the average blue collar wage earner because if we lose the labor, London will crumble.

Are there no prisons? And the Union Workhouses... are they still in operation?

[Niamh.]

Are there no prisons? And the Union Workhouses... are they still in operation?

:flutter:

I can't wait for December so I can watch that again

[Kizzy]

This is only really true in London & the SoE Kizzy... even the graph confirms that. Prices vs Income seem to be relatively stable otherwise, with the national average being skewed upwards by London + South. This graph from one of your own link confirms that:

https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2017/11/17/sdsdsdddd.png

In Scotland and the North, average prices have been hovering around 3 to 4 times average income since at least the early 80's. Obviously that also differs by area, e.g. Edinburgh can get very expensive, and the village I live in has basically no property under £100k, but the next village over has 2-bed flats going for £35k. Not particularly nice ones, but still. I've also seen 3 bed houses for as little as £45k, though admittedly they would need at least and other £10-15000 spent on them before living in them.

So that proves my point, and cals... if you were raised in London or the SE there is zero chance of buying a property there.
Of course there are good and bad places everywhere, the playing field is not level at all you have areas of high social deprivation and areas where house prices have sky rocketed. In the 80s fuel, utilities, travel and food was much less, therefore even if your home was double your annual wage you could afford to live... Now you cant.

[Kizzy]

He could get a bike, or a scooter :hee:

And a triple sidecar for the wife and kids?

[Cherie]

And a triple sidecar for the wife and kids?

sure why not

[Kizzy]

dear God, do I really have to explain that, it people can afford that on rent, if they no longer rent they can afford to save it...


He is talking about Central London and probably a house!, you can get a one bed flat in the burbs for 225,000 upwards, we all have to start somewhere right? unless of course you want to move straight into your forever home, how much is a one bed in the suburbs of Leeds?

Dear god... Where are they going to live while they save this 90k
with mummy and daddy?... as said not always an option.
I love the way you mention almost a quarter of a million pound for a one bed flat like its a bargain.
We obviously live in very different worlds Cherie, that's why I can see where cal comes from when suggesting it would take 100yrs to save for that if on your own commuting paying all your own utilities ...and you can't.

[Toy Soldier]

Well for one you're still pretty stuck on the London bubble which is misleading; you're making out that it's a national issue when it's very much a London issue. Secondly... 100 years to save 90k is clearly a massive exaggeration: that would be £75 a month. I don't think anyone who can only save £75 a month is in a position to be buying, no matter what the price...

[Cherie]

Dear god... Where are they going to live while they save this 90k
with mummy and daddy?... as said not always an option.
I love the way you mention almost a quarter of a million pound for a one bed flat like its a bargain.
We obviously live in very different worlds Cherie, that's why I can see where cal comes from when suggesting it would take 100yrs to save for that if on your own commuting paying all your own utilities ...and you can't.

it boils down to what you are used to 225,000 for a flat in London is a bargain! and you would need nowhere near a 90K deposit. I have asked youthe price to buy of a one bed in Leeds and am still waiting

I have already said a number of times living with parents isn't always an option though you seem very fixated on it, what about renting a room, when my neighbours moved into their house they rented a room to a couple with a baby to help them get some money to make renovations, I don't know where they put these people as there are 5 of them, but anyway they did it and they got the money for a new bathroom or whatever it was, that worked both ways the family got their new bathroom and the couple got a cheap room for a year, throwing your hands up in the air and saying it can't be done is no good to anyone, sort term pain for long term gain I suppose

[bots]

it's simple economics really, if you want to save cash, you reduce your costs or earn more money, and you do that in whatever way is feasible/acceptable to you.

You don't need to live with parents, i didnt, when I was starting out, I paid rent while saving to buy, like everyone else. Saving for a house is a long term goal, but it needs to be broken down into achievable milestones. When you do that, you see progress, get encouragement and incentive to continue in the process.

[DemolitionRed]

In 1980 the average wage was £6,000 (the equivalent of £19,000 in todays money) A little less than todays average earnings but in 1980 you got paid time and a half for extra hours and double time if you worked Sundays or holidays, so you could substantially build up that wage to average out with todays earnings.

In 1980 an average three bed house (not including London and Surrey) was £24,000. By 1990 that same house was £62,00. By 2000 it was worth £116,000. By 2010 its worth was £216,000 That house today has an approximate worth of £275,000
So if you purchased a house in 1980, without doing very much at all other than sitting on your investment, you’ve made a whopping quarter of a £million.
Now we could say that’s all subjective because if you sell your house tomorrow and purchase the one next door, its going to swallow all of your investment. You can, of course, move to a much cheaper area and live in a bigger, grander house, but you have to make compromises to do that.
What about the new buyer though? Mr Joe average is now earning slightly more than you were earning when you purchased that house but he’s not like you, looking at a mortgage of £24K, but a mortgage of £275k or a quarter of a £million more than you had to find.

The heyday of property buying for the average earner attempting to get on the property ladder is gone. Whilst the big banks make it possible for even the average earner to buy a house in the north, the property is so expensive that they will probably never pay off their mortgages and until they pay off their the mortgage, the house isn’t theirs, it’s the banks.

When people who bought their homes in the 80s claim that they had to work equally hard to afford their homes… they must be living in Narnia.

[Toy Soldier]

It's not really technically true that a mortgaged house belongs to the bank and not the buyer, to be fair... A mortgage is simply a loan that is leveraged against the property as a guarantee that the money will be repaid. So long as you keep within the terms of the loan, the property does for all intents and purposes belong to you. For example... If you buy a run down flat for 25k on a small mortgage, do extensive work on the flat that doubles the value, you still only owe the original amount of your mortgage... The bank only owns the debt, not the property (which is now worth £50k).

Worked out pretty "well" for my parents in that sense, they bought a house (4 large bedroom, detached) for £69k in 1997... And got divorced at what turned out to be a very good point to do so - 2005, after the property value had soared in 8 years to nearly £125k but before the bubble burst. They had a nice chunk left each after the mortgage was paid back. Which they both blew through in like a year, but that's another story :joker:.

[Cherie]

In 1980 the average wage was £6,000 (the equivalent of £19,000 in todays money) A little less than todays average earnings but in 1980 you got paid time and a half for extra hours and double time if you worked Sundays or holidays, so you could substantially build up that wage to average out with todays earnings.

In 1980 an average three bed house (not including London and Surrey) was £24,000. By 1990 that same house was £62,00. By 2000 it was worth £116,000. By 2010 its worth was £216,000 That house today has an approximate worth of £275,000
So if you purchased a house in 1980, without doing very much at all other than sitting on your investment, you’ve made a whopping quarter of a £million.
Now we could say that’s all subjective because if you sell your house tomorrow and purchase the one next door, its going to swallow all of your investment. You can, of course, move to a much cheaper area and live in a bigger, grander house, but you have to make compromises to do that.
What about the new buyer though? Mr Joe average is now earning slightly more than you were earning when you purchased that house but he’s not like you, looking at a mortgage of £24K, but a mortgage of £275k or a quarter of a £million more than you had to find.

The heyday of property buying for the average earner attempting to get on the property ladder is gone. Whilst the big banks make it possible for even the average earner to buy a house in the north, the property is so expensive that they will probably never pay off their mortgages and until they pay off their the mortgage, the house isn’t theirs, it’s the banks. As for saying the property is the banks, as TS said any equity is yours and your are not paying for someone elses mortgage as you do when renting with nothing to show for it, pay rent for 25 years, pay a mortgage for 25 years I know which one I would prefer to do.



When people who bought their homes in the 80s claim that they had to work equally hard to afford their homes… they must be living in Narnia.


I didn't buy in the 80's I bought in the 90s when interest rates were 15 per cent and then we had a recession and Mr C had to travel long distances to get work, anyway as I said earlier we should leave London out of the equation as prices in London are ridiculous but as has been pointed out, outside London prices are not that extortionate and seem pretty affordable in general.

With regard to the property belonging to the bank, as TS pointed out any equity isn't the banks and pay rent for a roof for 25 years when you are at the whim of a landlord and might have to move frequently and have nothing to show for it in 25 years time, or pay a mortgage and own your house, plus have the stability that unless things go seriously wrong its your home. I can think of nothing worse than a landlord rocking up with a notice to quit especially if you have a family

so have had a look at Leeds prices they seem to range from 44,000 for a one bed to 150,000 for a two bed.

https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Location=Leeds-England%3a-Leeds/Salary

and the average wage is 26,000

https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Location=Leeds-England%3a-Leeds/Salary

how is that not affordable :think:

[DemolitionRed]

It's not really technically true that a mortgaged house belongs to the bank and not the buyer, to be fair... A mortgage is simply a loan that is leveraged against the property as a guarantee that the money will be repaid. So long as you keep within the terms of the loan, the property does for all intents and purposes belong to you. For example... If you buy a run down flat for 25k on a small mortgage, do extensive work on the flat that doubles the value, you still only owe the original amount of your mortgage... The bank only owns the debt, not the property (which is now worth £50k).

Worked out pretty "well" for my parents in that sense, they bought a house (4 large bedroom, detached) for £69k in 1997... And got divorced at what turned out to be a very good point to do so - 2005, after the property value had soared in 8 years to nearly £125k but before the bubble burst. They had a nice chunk left each after the mortgage was paid back. Which they both blew through in like a year, but that's another story :joker:.

Your property is your asset that ensures you can re-pay your loan. During the last recession, many people defaulted on their mortgage payments and many lost their homes back to the lender.

Yes, you only owe the amount agreed but if the bank forecloses on you, they still re-possess the house, re-sell it and give you the residue not owed to them. They can't only take a portion of the structural asset, unless, its been divided into apartments, in which case they could take one apartment.

We had quite a nice house in Surrey but we reached a stage where everything revolved around working hard and paying the endless bills. The decision to give that up was the best thing we ever did. We still work hard but we now have enough free cash to play hard too. Life's too short!

[bots]

its also worth pointing out that 95% or greater mortgages weren't available in the 80's, you had to cough up 25% minimum. There were no easy buy schemes either, interests rates were in the 20%+ range. So we can say times were better, but they weren't, they were just different. However, the same principles apply, as they have always done. For Mr & Mrs average to be able to buy a house, they need conviction to do it, they need to focus on that as their goal and go for it.

[Cherie]

Your property is your asset that ensures you can re-pay your loan. During the last recession, many people defaulted on their mortgage payments and many lost their homes back to the lender.

Yes, you only owe the amount agreed but if the bank forecloses on you, they still re-possess the house, re-sell it and give you the residue not owed to them. They can't only take a portion of the structural asset, unless, its been divided into apartments, in which case they could take one apartment.

We had quite a nice house in Surrey but we reached a stage where everything revolved around working hard and paying the endless bills. The decision to give that up was the best thing we ever did. We still work hard but we now have enough free cash to play hard too. Life's too short!


If you want a roof over your head you have to pay rent or a mortgage? if you have a family, you don't have the luxury of selling up and downsizing to a canal boat, good for you for doing that if it suits you, it wont suit everyone and I expect your kids are somewhere? are they renting?

[Toy Soldier]

Your property is your asset that ensures you can re-pay your loan. During the last recession, many people defaulted on their mortgage payments and many lost their homes back to the lender.

Yes, you only owe the amount agreed but if the bank forecloses on you, they still re-possess the house, re-sell it and give you the residue not owed to them. They can't only take a portion of the structural asset, unless, its been divided into apartments, in which case they could take one apartment.

We had quite a nice house in Surrey but we reached a stage where everything revolved around working hard and paying the endless bills. The decision to give that up was the best thing we ever did. We still work hard but we now have enough free cash to play hard too. Life's too short!Well exactly, it is yours, you own it but it is forfeit should you default on the terms of the loan... However, it is for all intents and purposes "yours", and you can make modifications / do pretty much what you want with it, so long as you do keep up with the repayments... If the bank literally owned mortgaged properties, you wouldn't even be able to paint the walls without seeking permission.

Also, the only thing you need to do to keep your home secure is make the payments... Which is a world away from the private rental sector, where if your tenancy is ending and your landlord fancies selling up, you're ****ed... Bye bye "home".

[smudgie]

When we bought our first house mortgage payments were way higher than rent.
If you rented in the same area now the rent is more than a mortgage would be.:shrug:
Varies area to area, even in the same district.
As has been said, it's down to choice how you spend what money you have, and what you are prepared to sacrifice to get that choice.

[DemolitionRed]

its also worth pointing out that 95% or greater mortgages weren't available in the 80's, you had to cough up 25% minimum. There were no easy buy schemes either, interests rates were in the 20%+ range. So we can say times were better, but they weren't, they were just different. However, the same principles apply, as they have always done. For Mr & Mrs average to be able to buy a house, they need conviction to do it, they need to focus on that as their goal and go for it.

They were better in that they were a fantastic investment. There was no quicker way for the average person to make money than own property.

[DemolitionRed]

[/B]

If you want a roof over your head you have to pay rent or a mortgage? if you have a family, you don't have the luxury of selling up and downsizing to a canal boat, good for you for doing that if it suits you, it wont suit everyone and I expect your kids are somewhere? are they renting?

We don't live on a canal boat. :conf:. Our living space is bigger than the house we previously sold on.

One is at York uni. One is engaged and living with his girlfriend and the others live with us.

Yes, we did what suited us because we didn't want to be burdened with debt. We could have moved up north but why should we. We've made our life here and this is where we want to stay.

Edited to add: I'm sorry you see it as downgrading. I never took you to be a snob Cheryl

[DemolitionRed]

Well exactly, it is yours, you own it but it is forfeit should you default on the terms of the loan... However, it is for all intents and purposes "yours", and you can make modifications / do pretty much what you want with it, so long as you do keep up with the repayments... If the bank literally owned mortgaged properties, you wouldn't even be able to paint the walls without seeking permission.

Also, the only thing you need to do to keep your home secure is make the payments... Which is a world away from the private rental sector, where if your tenancy is ending and your landlord fancies selling up, you're ****ed... Bye bye "home".

Private rentals are like throwing money into a pit and setting it on fire. I agree that private rentals are not a good option if you are trying to save up to buy. That said, more and more people, at least in London, are renting long term and seem happy with it.

[Cherie]

We don't live on a canal boat. :conf:. Our living space is bigger than the house we previously sold on.

One is at York uni. One is engaged and living with his girlfriend and the others live with us.

Yes, we did what suited us because we didn't want to be burdened with debt. We could have moved up north but why should we. We've made our life here and this is where we want to stay.

Edited to add: I'm sorry you see it as downgrading. I never took you to be a snob Cheryl

Way to put words in my mouth if you think using the word luxury to downsize is snobbery, Plus I used the word downsize which you have changed to downgrade :idc: first I'm middle class now I'm a snob...anything else? Could have sworn you said you lived on a canal boat must be confusing you with someone else :think: canal boats are beautiful btw

[Cherie]

They were better in that they were a fantastic investment. There was no quicker way for the average person to make money than own property.

People bought homes to live in and to pass to their kids, if they wanted to make money they invested in buy to let, no one had a crystal ball back then any more than we do now

[DemolitionRed]

Way to put words in my mouth if you think using the word luxury to downsize is snobbery, Plus I used the word downsize which you have changed to downgrade :idc: first I'm middle class now I'm a snob...anything else? Could have sworn you said you lived on a canal boat must be confusing you with someone else :think: canal boats are beautiful btw

Canal boats are small and narrow, which is fine for a single person or even a couple but they aren't very suited to a large family.

[smudgie]

Way to put words in my mouth if you think using the word luxury to downsize is snobbery, Plus I used the word downsize which you have changed to downgrade :idc: first I'm middle class now I'm a snob...anything else? Could have sworn you said you lived on a canal boat must be confusing you with someone else :think: canal boats are beautiful btw

I must admit I took it to be a barge type boat as well.

[DemolitionRed]

People bought homes to live in and to pass to their kids, if they wanted to make money they invested in buy to let, no one had a crystal ball back then any more than we do now

I'm not saying people bought houses back in the 80s to make money but make money they did and a lot of it.

[Cherie]

Canal boats are small and narrow, which is fine for a single person or even a couple but they aren't very suited to a large family.

I thought it was just two of you !

[Cherie]

I'm not saying people bought houses back in the 80s to make money but make money they did and a lot of it.

And they are resented for it! They were the crusaders good on them

[Cherie]

I must admit I took it to be a barge type boat as well.

Thanks Smudge

[Cherie]

When we bought our first house mortgage payments were way higher than rent.
If you rented in the same area now the rent is more than a mortgage would be.:shrug:
Varies area to area, even in the same district.
As has been said, it's down to choice how you spend what money you have, and what you are prepared to sacrifice to get that choice.



Sums it up really

[DemolitionRed]

Okay, I give in. Its a Thames barge. This means its too big to fit on any British canal. It has a mast and sails which makes it an ocean-going vessel.

[DemolitionRed]

And they are resented for it! They were the crusaders good on them

Where did I say they were resented for it. I don't resent my parents. I'm envious of the opportunities they were given regarding property. I'd love to be able to do what they did and make the sort of money they made but I don't resent them.

[smudgie]

Okay, I give in. Its a Thames barge. This means its too big to fit on any British canal. It has a mast and sails which makes it an ocean-going vessel.

Sounds heavenly.

[Cherie]

Where did I say they were resented for it. I don't resent my parents. I'm envious of the opportunities they were given regarding property. I'd love to be able to do what they did and make the sort of money they made but I don't resent them.

I didn't say you per se, but plenty people resent them for it, same as they are resented for having free uni and all the other stuff that was around back then, its pretty pointless being envious because it was just a fluke that they bought at that time, there were plenty people who didn't buy as well, same as now.

[Toy Soldier]

I didn't say you per se, but plenty people resent them for it, same as they are resented for having free uni and all the other stuff that was around back then, its pretty pointless being envious because it was just a fluke that they bought at that time, there were plenty people who didn't buy as well, same as now.I don't think there's resentment for them having things like free uni fees... It's more that a lot of people who did, are now totally against the idea of young people now having the same thing, now that they are working and it would be from their own taxes. They were happy to have it, but also happy to see it go as soon as they personally no longer needed it, which seems hypocritical and selfish. I think that's where the resentment comes from.

[DemolitionRed]

I don't think there's resentment for them having things like free uni fees... It's more that a lot of people who did, are now totally against the idea of young people now having the same thing, now that they are working and it would be from their own taxes. They were happy to have it, but also happy to see it go as soon as they personally no longer needed it, which seems hypocritical and selfish. I think that's where the resentment comes from.

Thank you for saying what I've been trying to say badly!

[Cherie]

I don't think there's resentment for them having things like free uni fees... It's more that a lot of people who did, are now totally against the idea of young people now having the same thing, now that they are working and it would be from their own taxes. They were happy to have it, but also happy to see it go as soon as they personally no longer needed it, which seems hypocritical and selfish. I think that's where the resentment comes from.

that's pretty sad as well, people can be incredibly petty, you pay tax where it goes nobody knows really and it's not like taxes would be specifically raised to fund it, I would love my kids to have free uni but it won't happen for them, hopefully for some down the line

[Toy Soldier]

that's pretty sad as well, people can be incredibly petty, you pay tax where it goes nobody knows really and it's not like taxes would be specifically raised to fund it, I would love my kids to have free uni but it won't happen for them, hopefully for some down the lineWell I'm a freeloading Scotsman so I did get free tuition :joker:... So who cares about you English folk, up it to 100k a year I say, price the English out of the market so that you all have to recruit graduates from Scotland.

:umm2:...

[Kizzy]

it boils down to what you are used to 225,000 for a flat in London is a bargain! and you would need nowhere near a 90K deposit. I have asked youthe price to buy of a one bed in Leeds and am still waiting

I have already said a number of times living with parents isn't always an option though you seem very fixated on it, what about renting a room, when my neighbours moved into their house they rented a room to a couple with a baby to help them get some money to make renovations, I don't know where they put these people as there are 5 of them, but anyway they did it and they got the money for a new bathroom or whatever it was, that worked both ways the family got their new bathroom and the couple got a cheap room for a year, throwing your hands up in the air and saying it can't be done is no good to anyone, sort term pain for long term gain I suppose

What about the young people of the south though.... We are sorted here in Leeds it's practically doable.
The solution you have come up with is whole families living in one room on a short term let?!... Well it's a step up from sofa surfing I suppose, it's still no replacement for affordable housing.

And it will take how many years of moving from bedsit to bedsit? Poor poor kids

[Kizzy]

[/B]

I didn't buy in the 80's I bought in the 90s when interest rates were 15 per cent and then we had a recession and Mr C had to travel long distances to get work, anyway as I said earlier we should leave London out of the equation as prices in London are ridiculous but as has been pointed out, outside London prices are not that extortionate and seem pretty affordable in general.

With regard to the property belonging to the bank, as TS pointed out any equity isn't the banks and pay rent for a roof for 25 years when you are at the whim of a landlord and might have to move frequently and have nothing to show for it in 25 years time, or pay a mortgage and own your house, plus have the stability that unless things go seriously wrong its your home. I can think of nothing worse than a landlord rocking up with a notice to quit especially if you have a family

so have had a look at Leeds prices they seem to range from 44,000 for a one bed to 150,000 for a two bed.

https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Location=Leeds-England%3a-Leeds/Salary

and the average wage is 26,000

https://www.payscale.com/research/UK/Location=Leeds-England%3a-Leeds/Salary

how is that not affordable :think:

Why are you so fixated on Leeds.... I'm not on nearly the 'average' wage or even a 'living' wage sadly, and neither are a lot of people in London and the rest of the south...What about them, why can't we talk about them?

[Toy Soldier]

Why are you so fixated on Leeds.... I'm not on nearly the 'average' wage or even a 'living' wage sadly, and neither are a lot of people in London and the rest of the south...What about them, why can't we talk about them?Because London is a shadow realm wot must never be named lest its influence spill out into the real world :worry:

[Cherie]

What about the young people of the south though.... We are sorted here in Leeds it's practically doable.
The solution you have come up with is whole families living in one room on a short term let?!... Well it's a step up from sofa surfing I suppose, it's still no replacement for affordable housing.

And it will take how many years of moving from bedsit to bedsit? Poor poor kids

It's good to see that you can finally see the wood from the trees and that it is possible to get onto the housing ladder outside London if you have a mind too only a few days ago you were hand wringing and agreeing with Cal's 100 year saving plan for everyone living in the UK, a 5 year plan would seem more realistic would you agree? With regard to London unless you feel I should personally solve the housing crises :suspect: we have a Mayor who put housing very squarely on his manifesto, I posted this link earlier in the thread, maybe you missed it, I urge you to be strong when you see what he advocates as starter home prices :worry: we are waiting for him to come good on his promise, so far he seems more fixated on getting rid of wood burning stoves to improve the atmosphere

http://www.sadiq.london/homes_for_londoners_manifesto

Finally average wages are what it says on the tin, average, it means not everyone will be earning that amount but equally some people will earn more, so you are able to buy your home on a non living wage how are you managing that?

[Vicky.]

I would have to save for like 20 years to get a deposit for a house. And noone would touch me with a barge pole for a mortgage. So I would have to buy outright which would take me like 200 years to save :laugh:

[Cherie]

I would have to save for like 20 years to get a deposit for a house. And noone would touch me with a barge pole for a mortgage. So I would have to buy outright which would take me like 200 years to save :laugh:

Credit history can be a bigger problem for a lot of people they can afford repayments but computer says no

[Toy Soldier]

Credit report clears after 6 years. Vicky has a criminal record :hehe:

[Vicky.]

I have both a terrible credit history, and a criminal record :(

[Cherie]

I have both a terrible credit history, and a criminal record :(

On the plus side you can't get into anymore debt I guess :laugh: I didn't realise you couldn't get a mortgage if you have a criminal record, does that mean you can't travel to the States either?

[Vicky.]

I can go to the states, as my record isn't for violence, its for fraud. Apparently its only violent crime they are worried about, or serious offenses.

I din't know a criminal record affected mortgage either, guess I have absolutely no chance ever then :laugh:

[Toy Soldier]

I can go to the states, as my record isn't for violence, its for fraud. Apparently its only violent crime they are worried about, or serious offenses.

I din't know a criminal record affected mortgage either, guess I have absolutely no chance ever then [emoji23]It'll affect you specifically because it's a financial crime Vicky :(. It's like the opposite of travel... They wouldn't care if it WAS violent crime, but fraud will make lenders run a mile probably.

Credit history doesn't have to be a problem, if you can clear debts and keep a clean credit record for 6 years you're fine. All defaults / even CCJ's etc. fall off of your credit report after 6 years.

[Vicky.]

I would never be in a position to get a mortgage anyway tbh. Unless doctors finally fix me. Given I cannot work at the moment and am dosed up on morphine near 24/7. They aren't even investigating anymore...they just have written me off on painkillers for life :S

[Cal.]

I would never be in a position to get a mortgage anyway tbh. Unless doctors finally fix me. Given I cannot work at the moment and am dosed up on morphine near 24/7. They aren't even investigating anymore...they just have written me off on painkillers for life :S

That's so annoying.

I hope your health issues subside some day soon Vicky.

[smudgie]

I would never be in a position to get a mortgage anyway tbh. Unless doctors finally fix me. Given I cannot work at the moment and am dosed up on morphine near 24/7. They aren't even investigating anymore...they just have written me off on painkillers for life :S

No bloody way:fist:
Don't let them give up on you Vicky, can you change your doctor?
Get in touch with your papers..MP etc.?

[Kizzy]

It's good to see that you can finally see the wood from the trees and that it is possible to get onto the housing ladder outside London if you have a mind too only a few days ago you were hand wringing and agreeing with Cal's 100 year saving plan for everyone living in the UK, a 5 year plan would seem more realistic would you agree? With regard to London unless you feel I should personally solve the housing crises :suspect: we have a Mayor who put housing very squarely on his manifesto, I posted this link earlier in the thread, maybe you missed it, I urge you to be strong when you see what he advocates as starter home prices :worry: we are waiting for him to come good on his promise, so far he seems more fixated on getting rid of wood burning stoves to improve the atmosphere

http://www.sadiq.london/homes_for_londoners_manifesto

Finally average wages are what it says on the tin, average, it means not everyone will be earning that amount but equally some people will earn more, so you are able to buy your home on a non living wage how are you managing that?

Cal didn't specify how many, isn't the whole of the south bad enough...Or do you want a mass exodus to Leeds?
I have never asked you to solve it I asked for ideas for southerners struggling heading north isn't always viable neither is kipping in some old dears back bedroom while she saves for a stairlift.
I get a 50% discount on this post war prefab which is not worth much to begin with, a mortgage on it would be less than my rent.

He can't have my woodburning stove! :fist: ( it's DEFRA approved though :) )
You of course know the real reason, the energy companies profits are affected so are pressuring the govt to do something to force people back to fossil fuels the dirtiest fuel there is. :/

[Vicky.]

No bloody way:fist:
Don't let them give up on you Vicky, can you change your doctor?
Get in touch with your papers..MP etc.?

No way am I going to the papers. Most people I know don't even know how ill I am as I mask it with a ****load of painkillers if I am going out and will be necking morphine in the loos. Or I cancel going out, if its too bad

Can't change doctors apparently as we tried to a while back because of a serious mistake a doctor made with Skye and were told that we have to use the one we are currently using, something to do with distance from surgeries or something :S

I have considered instead of doubling/tripling my morphine doses just going to A+E when its really bad and if I go enough they will have to actually sort it. But I don't want to waste A+Es time when I can sort it myself. Though when I sort it myself it means I have no morphine for half the week...a problem I have tonight actually. Had a really bad few days, and have no morphine left from my weeks supply, and can't get more til Tuesday. So may end up in A+E anyways at this rate for IV

My MP is crap and has not replied to the last 2 emails I sent him :bored:

[DemolitionRed]

From what I'm understanding Vicky, they are treating the symptoms without knowing the cause? Have they tried/attempted to give you a diagnosis of anything?

[Cherie]

I would never be in a position to get a mortgage anyway tbh. Unless doctors finally fix me. Given I cannot work at the moment and am dosed up on morphine near 24/7. They aren't even investigating anymore...they just have written me off on painkillers for life :S

:sad: Vicky a friends husband is in the same situation, constant pain that the docs can't pinpoint or cure

[Cherie]

Cal didn't specify how many, isn't the whole of the south bad enough...Or do you want a mass exodus to Leeds?
I have never asked you to solve it I asked for ideas for southerners struggling heading north isn't always viable neither is kipping in some old dears back bedroom while she saves for a stairlift.
I get a 50% discount on this post war prefab which is not worth much to begin with, a mortgage on it would be less than my rent.

He can't have my woodburning stove! :fist: ( it's DEFRA approved though :) )
You of course know the real reason, the energy companies profits are affected so are pressuring the govt to do something to force people back to fossil fuels the dirtiest fuel there is. :/

Defra approved means nothing now apparently, this will be the same as buying diesel cars


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/air-pollution-sadiq-khan-calls-for-ban-on-wood-burning-stoves/ar-AAsACWR

[smudgie]

Defra approved means nothing now apparently, this will be the same as buying diesel cars


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/air-pollution-sadiq-khan-calls-for-ban-on-wood-burning-stoves/ar-AAsACWR

We loved the idea of a wood burning stove, but since someone 2minutes away had their installed we have noticed black dust settling on our windowsills, even with double glazing.
Might settle for a gas or Bioethenol fake looking one now.

[Kizzy]

Defra approved means nothing now apparently, this will be the same as buying diesel cars


https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/air-pollution-sadiq-khan-calls-for-ban-on-wood-burning-stoves/ar-AAsACWR

Aw well good job there's nice big coal fed power stations to produce lots of nice 'clean' energy then eh?

[Vicky.]

From what I'm understanding Vicky, they are treating the symptoms without knowing the cause? Have they tried/attempted to give you a diagnosis of anything?

They aren't even treating the symptoms properly as the oramorph gives me a little bit of relief but only lasts like an hour, then I have to wait 3 hours for the next does (officially, as it happens I take it whenever necessary as its such a low dose I know I cannot OD on it and I would rather not be in pain when theres a way not to be, but this is how I end up with none for 3/4 days a week :S)

They originally diagnosed costocondritus. But then a specialist said that was a ridiculous diagnosis as the pain is in the wrong place to be that. Then they said it may be caused by gallstones, so took out my gallbladder and ****ed it up which left me in more pain than before as they had to open me back up to do a 'washout' and they had cut my bile duct too so I had to have huge drains out of my chest for 2 weeks which left me with new pain ontop of the old pain. Luckily the nerve damage caused by the drains is treated very effectively with the 600mg pregabin that they give me per day. I also since having gallbladder out, have had huge digestive issues and a very bad stomach ache on a regular basis. And feel sick near constantly, which is controlled by cyclizine pretty effectively, but not always.

And after this, nothing for 2 years. They did blood tests every so often which show inflammation but obviously..doesn't tell them where the inflammation is.

Recently they also tried a nerve block into my spine, which they called an 'intercostal muscle injection'...which was apparently meant to be a kind of long lasting anaesthetic if it worked. Which it did not, and left me again in more pain than before. 3 days after the injection I could not move at all and then after this I get random shooting pains up my spine. It did not relieve the pain at all..which was awful as I had been waiting for it for a year and looking forward to it as I had been lead to believe it was very very likely to be effective. I broke down in the GPs about this and they said that it was not likely to be effective, but it was done for diagnostic reasons so they can rule stuff out rather than expecting it to help me. So I was lied to, and again, what they tried to do left me worse off.

So yeah, pretty pathetic story so far. Everything they have tried to do to help me seems to have gone wrong (apparently them knacking up a keyhole gallbladder removal is really really rare, so just my luck they did mine wrong eh...) and what they are giving me to deal with the pain in the meantime does not even work properly.

[Cherie]

Aw well good job there's nice big coal fed power stations to produce lots of nice 'clean' energy then eh?

AS a Mayor he has been pretty poor, not sure why he is taking issue with government approved woodburners which cost a fortune, targetting the middle class?

[Kizzy]

They aren't even treating the symptoms properly as the oramorph gives me a little bit of relief but only lasts like an hour, then I have to wait 3 hours for the next does (officially, as it happens I take it whenever necessary as its such a low dose I know I cannot OD on it and I would rather not be in pain when theres a way not to be, but this is how I end up with none for 3/4 days a week :S)

They originally diagnosed costocondritus. But then a specialist said that was a ridiculous diagnosis as the pain is in the wrong place to be that. Then they said it may be caused by gallstones, so took out my gallbladder and ****ed it up which left me in more pain than before as they had to open me back up to do a 'washout' and they had cut my bile duct too so I had to have huge drains out of my chest for 2 weeks which left me with new pain ontop of the old pain. Luckily the nerve damage caused by the drains is treated very effectively with the 600mg pregabin that they give me per day. I also since having gallbladder out, have had huge digestive issues and a very bad stomach ache on a regular basis. And feel sick near constantly, which is controlled by cyclizine pretty effectively, but not always.

And after this, nothing for 2 years. They did blood tests every so often which show inflammation but obviously..doesn't tell them where the inflammation is.

Recently they also tried a nerve block into my spine, which they called an 'intercostal muscle injection'...which was apparently meant to be a kind of long lasting anaesthetic if it worked. Which it did not, and left me again in more pain than before. 3 days after the injection I could not move at all and then after this I get random shooting pains up my spine. It did not relieve the pain at all..which was awful as I had been waiting for it for a year and looking forward to it as I had been lead to believe it was very very likely to be effective. I broke down in the GPs about this and they said that it was not likely to be effective, but it was done for diagnostic reasons so they can rule stuff out rather than expecting it to help me. So I was lied to, and again, what they tried to do left me worse off.

So yeah, pretty pathetic story so far. Everything they have tried to do to help me seems to have gone wrong (apparently them knacking up a keyhole gallbladder removal is really really rare, so just my luck they did mine wrong eh...) and what they are giving me to deal with the pain in the meantime does not even work properly.

Did they ever wonder if it was dietary Vicky?

[Kizzy]

AS a Mayor he has been pretty poor, not sure why he is taking issue with government approved woodburners which cost a fortune, targetting the middle class?

Well as he came after bojo most were expecting good things, but to be fair this does smack of direct pressure from the big 6 and nothing else.

[Vicky.]

Did they ever wonder if it was dietary Vicky?

Yeah they have had me make changes, also wondered if it was vitamin deficiencies at one stage and made me have some injection, think it was vitamin e but not sure.

What I think it is, is hormonal. but they refuse to look into it. The reason I think this, is I have had this pain for years and year but it used to just be once a month or so so I could deal with it then. During both my pregnancies, it went away completely. And after giving birth to my son, it has been constant pain. So..the only thing that makes sense to me is its something to do with hormones. But no, they know best and refuse to even test. Why they think they know best when they have failed to find the source so far, I don't know.

[Kizzy]

Yeah they have had me make changes, also wondered if it was vitamin deficiencies at one stage and made me have some injection, think it was vitamin e but not sure.

What I think it is, is hormonal. but they refuse to look into it. The reason I think this, is I have had this pain for years and year but it used to just be once a month or so so I could deal with it then. During both my pregnancies, it went away completely. And after giving birth to my son, it has been constant pain. So..the only thing that makes sense to me is its something to do with hormones. But no, they know best and refuse to even test. Why they think they know best when they have failed to find the source so far, I don't know.

If that was the case wouldn't the answer be to just go on the full dose pill?

[Niamh.]

Yeah they have had me make changes, also wondered if it was vitamin deficiencies at one stage and made me have some injection, think it was vitamin e but not sure.

What I think it is, is hormonal. but they refuse to look into it. The reason I think this, is I have had this pain for years and year but it used to just be once a month or so so I could deal with it then. During both my pregnancies, it went away completely. And after giving birth to my son, it has been constant pain. So..the only thing that makes sense to me is its something to do with hormones. But no, they know best and refuse to even test. Why they think they know best when they have failed to find the source so far, I don't know.

That's really odd about it going away during pregnancies Vicky, would hormones cause chest pains though? They really should investigate that angle though, like try and find something that changed during pregnancy that could have stopped the pain :think:

[Vicky.]

If that was the case wouldn't the answer be to just go on the full dose pill?

I have tried checking the hormonal stuff myself. I have been on both the pill, the mini pill, the injection and currently the implant. None of which has made any difference. Still think its hormonal in some way though, with it disappearing totally during pregnancy, and then going as bad as it is now right after giving birth D:

[Vicky.]

That's really odd about it going away during pregnancies Vicky, would hormones cause chest pains though? They really should investigate that angle though, like try and find something that changed during pregnancy that could have stopped the pain :think:

No idea. Its not chest pains as such, its a stabbing pain in the side of my ribs. Have more problems now after botched surgeries and such, but the original pain was a pain in the right side, like right down the side of the ribcage, sometimes going into my stomach area.

[Niamh.]

No idea. Its not chest pains as such, its a stabbing pain in the side of my ribs. Have more problems now after botched surgeries and such, but the original pain was a pain in the right side, like right down the side of the ribcage, sometimes going into my stomach area.

sounds awful though, I can't believe they're not doing more to try and figure it out

[Kizzy]

I have tried checking the hormonal stuff myself. I have been on both the pill, the mini pill, the injection and currently the implant. None of which has made any difference. Still think its hormonal in some way though, with it disappearing totally during pregnancy, and then going as bad as it is now right after giving birth D:

That is so odd, was it deffo the full pill they gave you? I would've thought with the way it worked kidding the bod it's preggers that would solve it. What was the vit E suggested for?

[Vicky.]

That is so odd, was it deffo the full pill they gave you? I would've thought with the way it worked kidding the bod it's preggers that would solve it. What was the vit E suggested for?

I think it was, was just told it was the pill, then the minipill :S They don't know I am trying to find the source myself, I just keep telling them that I have reactions and stuff or don't trust the method any longer, and ask for the next one

Vitamin E was suggested as in my bloods it showed as severely aneamic and deficient in some vitamin, think it was E. They apparently had to order in the inection for that from germany, not sure on the reasons for that

[Kizzy]

I think it was, was just told it was the pill, then the minipill :S They don't know I am trying to find the source myself, I just keep telling them that I have reactions and stuff or don't trust the method any longer, and ask for the next one

Vitamin E was suggested as in my bloods it showed as severely aneamic and deficient in some vitamin, think it was E. They apparently had to order in the inection for that from germany, not sure on the reasons for that

The mini pill works a different way, what were you on? Try get on yasmin if you can it's more expensive so they are more reluctant to prescribe it but it's good, if you're overweight or have high blood pressure they wont let you have it though.

Are you sure it wasn't A?
Have to go to work and on nights for a couple of days so if I don't answer not being rude, chat soon x

[Vicky.]

The mini pill works a different way, what were you on? Try get on yasmin if you can it's more expensive so they are more reluctant to prescribe it but it's good, if you're overweight or have high blood pressure they wont let you have it though.

Are you sure it wasn't A?
Have to go to work and on nights for a couple of days so if I don't answer not being rude, chat soon x

It might have been A. Whatever it was had to be ordered in as apparently we don't stock it here

I am a bit overweight. Not massively so though.

Also sorry for hijacking your thread D:

[DemolitionRed]

It might have been A. Whatever it was had to be ordered in as apparently we don't stock it here

I am a bit overweight. Not massively so though.

Also sorry for hijacking your thread D:

Sorry you're having to go through this but I honestly think you need to push your doctors to be more pro-active. GP's are basically ear nose and throat specialists who rely on specialists for anything more complex.

It used to be that you went to your GP, who sent you to a specialist, who went through a process of elimination before sending you on to a specialist in another field. Now what they do is send you back to your doctor, perhaps with a suggested referral, which the doctor often doesn't act upon... because money is tight.

I'd start by getting all your medical records. All you have to do is go into your surgery with id like a passport or driving license and fill in a form asking all your records to be sent to you. When you get them, scrutinize them to see what each specialist has said and what they recommend. Your GP's will of had meetings about you and you can see what was said/suggested at those meetings.

Next time you see your doctor, reel off the list of specialists you've seen and tests you've had and then ask, "So what's the next step? where do we go from here?"
By doing that your saying, "we are in this together and I'm sure you want a diagnosis for me as much as I do"

It may be that you have something very rare but its more likely your just haven't' seen the right specialist yet.

[Vicky.]

Sorry you're having to go through this but I honestly think you need to push your doctors to be more pro-active. GP's are basically ear nose and throat specialists who rely on specialists for anything more complex.

It used to be that you went to your GP, who sent you to a specialist, who went through a process of elimination before sending you on to a specialist in another field. Now what they do is send you back to your doctor, perhaps with a suggested referral, which the doctor often doesn't act upon... because money is tight.

I'd start by getting all your medical records. All you have to do is go into your surgery with id like a passport or driving license and fill in a form asking all your records to be sent to you. When you get them, scrutinize them to see what each specialist has said and what they recommend. Your GP's will of had meetings about you and you can see what was said/suggested at those meetings.

Next time you see your doctor, reel off the list of specialists you've seen and tests you've had and then ask, "So what's the next step? where do we go from here?"
By doing that your saying, "we are in this together and I'm sure you want a diagnosis for me as much as I do"

It may be that you have something very rare but its more likely your just haven't' seen the right specialist yet.

I actually have all my medical notes due to the DWP deciding I no longer qualify for PIP. Judge whos doing my tribunal ordered them, and now that welfare rights have proof of what I was telling them, they say not only will I definitely get my award back, I will also be granted the higher level. Before I had the standard award.

I ask my GP all the time whats the next step..they always say its up to the pain clinic. Who wont give me a ****ing appointment :(

I actually think the problem might possibly be something called fibromyalgia. Having read up on it after someone on mumsnet said that sounded like my issue. Its basically, random unexplained pain..accompanied with fatigue and muscle aches. All of which suit me exactly.

Unfortunately,my GP says this is not a real illness :rolleyes: Even though it is.

[AnnieK]

I actually have all my medical notes due to the DWP deciding I no longer qualify for PIP. Judge whos doing my tribunal ordered them, and now that welfare rights have proof of what I was telling them, they say not only will I definitely get my award back, I will also be granted the higher level. Before I had the standard award.

I ask my GP all the time whats the next step..they always say its up to the pain clinic. Who wont give me a ****ing appointment :(

I actually think the problem might possibly be something called fibromyalgia. Having read up on it after someone on mumsnet said that sounded like my issue. Its basically, random unexplained pain..accompanied with fatigue and muscle aches. All of which suit me exactly.

Unfortunately,my GP says this is not a real illness :rolleyes: Even though it is.

Fibromyalgia is definitely a real illness. I have a friend who suffers with it and at her worst, she actually has considered suicide a few tines as the pain is that chronic. She has recently overhauled her diet which has helped a bit but she now eats virtually a vegan diet and says its so boring, she also has b12 injections, anti inflammatories and trammies (although she says they're ****). She also has regular reflexology but doesnt think that helps. Took her years to be told thats what she had.....kept getting fobbed off as wasting docs time though. Hope you get it sorted Vic

[Vicky.]

B12, thats the injection I got!

Made no difference with the one, but I was meant to have another to be sure and the docs decided it was a waste as the first made no difference?! Despite saying before I got the first that a second would be needed to see results.

I know fibro is very real. A friend has had it for a while and I never thought anymore into it until I started checking my symptoms. They reckon its what I have too as its nearly identical. Only thing I don't have thats apparently a requirement, it aching joints.

I can;t help thinking though that it HAS to be hormonal with it going away in pregnancies. Also it started with just the pain and has progressed since then, where apparently fibro starts with all of the symptoms.

[Cherie]

Well as he came after bojo most were expecting good things, but to be fair this does smack of direct pressure from the big 6 and nothing else.

Why would he need to cave to pressure from the Utility companies?

[Cherie]

B12, thats the injection I got!

Made no difference with the one, but I was meant to have another to be sure and the docs decided it was a waste as the first made no difference?! Despite saying before I got the first that a second would be needed to see results.

I know fibro is very real. A friend has had it for a while and I never thought anymore into it until I started checking my symptoms. They reckon its what I have too as its nearly identical. Only thing I don't have thats apparently a requirement, it aching joints.

I can;t help thinking though that it HAS to be hormonal with it going away in pregnancies. Also it started with just the pain and has progressed since then, where apparently fibro starts with all of the symptoms.


A friend of mine has Fibro, so it is a recognised complaint not sure why you have been told otherwise! think Parminion recently said his Mrs has it as well

[Vicky.]

A friend of mine has Fibro, so it is a recognised complaint not sure why you have been told otherwise! think Parminion recently said his Mrs has it as well

Apparently a lot of doctors don't believe its a real illness. 2 of the ones at my surgery don't, from experience of bringing it up :bored:

[Kizzy]

It might have been A. Whatever it was had to be ordered in as apparently we don't stock it here

I am a bit overweight. Not massively so though.

Also sorry for hijacking your thread D:

Ask at reception for a copy of your last bloods tell them you need to take to a hospital appointment it will have the levels and whether they are high or low on it.
I'd ask about yasmin, no worries about the thread :joker:

[Kizzy]

Why would he need to cave to pressure from the Utility companies?

To force more back from their woodburners to cranking up the thermostat of the central heating.
no profits no kickbacks

[Cherie]

To force more back from their woodburners to cranking up the thermostat of the central heating.
no profits no kickbacks

I understand why the utilise would want less wood burners, my question is why would the London Mayor be influenced by them in his decision making? So you are saying he is selling out the people who voted for him for kickbacks to the Mayors office?

[DemolitionRed]

I actually have all my medical notes due to the DWP deciding I no longer qualify for PIP. Judge whos doing my tribunal ordered them, and now that welfare rights have proof of what I was telling them, they say not only will I definitely get my award back, I will also be granted the higher level. Before I had the standard award.

I ask my GP all the time whats the next step..they always say its up to the pain clinic. Who wont give me a ****ing appointment :(

I actually think the problem might possibly be something called fibromyalgia. Having read up on it after someone on mumsnet said that sounded like my issue. Its basically, random unexplained pain..accompanied with fatigue and muscle aches. All of which suit me exactly.

Unfortunately,my GP says this is not a real illness :rolleyes: Even though it is.

Like others have said, Fibromyalgia is real but Fibromyalgia is a Latin word for 'muscle pain' and muscle pain can be many different illnesses. My sister was relieved when she was eventually told she had Fibromyalgia. The problem was, every time she went to the doctors with new symptoms they missed diagnosing her with a much more serious condition called 'spontaneous coronary artery dissection' a condition where the artery wall tears (SCAD is a rare condition btw that needs very specific tests). She'd already been diagnosed with hypermobility which people FM often have but hypermobility is also a pre-curser for other conditions, including SCAD. All the time she believed she had FM, she was attending pain clinics, changing her meds, upping her meds and having days when she couldn't get out of bed. She's now fully off painkillers and back to being fully mobile because she's taking the right meds for her now diagnosed condition.

I would caution on accepting a diagnosis of FM until you've had further tests for other things because once you get that diagnosis, all your going to get is pain management and doctors not taking you with the seriousness you deserve.

[DemolitionRed]

Apparently a lot of doctors don't believe its a real illness. 2 of the ones at my surgery don't, from experience of bringing it up :bored:

That's because they know its a symptom. Its not that they don't believe you have the symptoms but I think a lot of doctors see it as a copout. There are no tests for FM, they can only go on symptoms. When every test known to man has been done and when nothing points in any particular direction, then perhaps a diagnosis of FM should be given (though remember, its a diagnosis of unknown muscle pain symptoms) but because doctors know that many people just want a diagnosis, they tell them they have FM.

[Toy Soldier]

That's because they know its a symptom. Its not that they don't believe you have the symptoms but I think a lot of doctors see it as a copout. There are no tests for FM, they can only go on symptoms. When every test known to man has been done and when nothing points in any particular direction, then perhaps a diagnosis of FM should be given (though remember, its a diagnosis of unknown muscle pain symptoms) but because doctors know that many people just want a diagnosis, they tell them they have FM.

So it's a bit like ME / Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? There's a lot of debate around how "real" that is but I think it's sort of the same thing - it's a collection of symptoms with no defined cause or treatment. So I guess the possibilities are that it's one cause that they haven't figured out yet, OR it simply is a large variety of things but that all present in the same way. I'm sure it is very real, though, at school a friend of mine's older sister (also a friend of MY older sister...) was diagnosed with ME and she was definitely not very well at all.

I think there's also some debate over whether it's a sort of low-level, ongoing version of PVFS (post-viral fatigue syndrome) and triggered by a virus... which I KNOW is very real, as I had acute PVFS after a pretty minor viral throat infection 2 winters ago. It lasted about a month and it was just bizarre, like no other illness I've ever had... nearly fainted on the way to work one morning and thought I was having a stroke, followed by a month of just constant exhaustion, insomnia (but dropping in and out of sleep all day and night), and every single night like clockwork I'd get a raging fever for 5 / 6 hours and I'd just lie in bed pouring buckets of sweat. Totally horrendous. Then one day it just disappeared as suddenly as it started :shrug:. I got the distinct impression that the doctors just don't really understand it at all and it's a "wait and see what happens I guess" situation :think:.

[Kizzy]

I understand why the utilise would want less wood burners, my question is why would the London Mayor be influenced by them in his decision making? So you are saying he is selling out the people who voted for him for kickbacks to the Mayors office?

I am, I can't think of any other reason why the public are being blamed for the level of particulates in London can you? considering the percentage of the population which own a woodburner would be something like 0.000000000001%
What about fossil fuel power stations, heavy industry, traffic, or public transport?

[DemolitionRed]

So it's a bit like ME / Chronic Fatigue Syndrome? There's a lot of debate around how "real" that is but I think it's sort of the same thing - it's a collection of symptoms with no defined cause or treatment. So I guess the possibilities are that it's one cause that they haven't figured out yet, OR it simply is a large variety of things but that all present in the same way. I'm sure it is very real, though, at school a friend of mine's older sister (also a friend of MY older sister...) was diagnosed with ME and she was definitely not very well at all.

I think there's also some debate over whether it's a sort of low-level, ongoing version of PVFS (post-viral fatigue syndrome) and triggered by a virus... which I KNOW is very real, as I had acute PVFS after a pretty minor viral throat infection 2 winters ago. It lasted about a month and it was just bizarre, like no other illness I've ever had... nearly fainted on the way to work one morning and thought I was having a stroke, followed by a month of just constant exhaustion, insomnia (but dropping in and out of sleep all day and night), and every single night like clockwork I'd get a raging fever for 5 / 6 hours and I'd just lie in bed pouring buckets of sweat. Totally horrendous. Then one day it just disappeared as suddenly as it started :shrug:. I got the distinct impression that the doctors just don't really understand it at all and it's a "wait and see what happens I guess" situation :think:.

Again, there is no specific tests for ME. All they can go on is symptoms. Many people who were diagnosed with ME later went on to be diagnosed with MS and a proportion of people with FM are later being diagnosed with Lupus or MS.

They are starting to go down the line of viruses, especially post-hospital viruses causing ME and FM but like you say, they don't really understand what's going on. What they do know is, people with FM and ME are more likely to have hypermobility syndrome, suffer migraines and get nasal allergies. There are clearly links to these diseases but as yet, nobody knows why.

I'm glad you got better. It must of been quite frightening at the time, especially when we have google at our fingertips and can look up all the awful things it could be. Sounds like you just had a nasty virus that you managed to shake off.