andrew calling india a prick

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

was this borderline transphobic?

idk ‘prick’ just doesn’t seem like a gender neutral insult to me and something you are much more likely to say to a man

[Wizard.]

I did kind of think that tbh you don't usually call a woman a prick.

[chuff me dizzy]

Oh fgs, keep digging :idc:

[Fetch The Bolt Cutters]

I did kind of think that tbh you don't usually call a woman a prick.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/b88ee88e08b82141869dac81bc814c2c/tenor.gif?itemid=7589161

[Crimson Dynamo]

His "Dickhead" comment was made to a man not a woman so he sees her as a man not a woman

disgusting transphobia from the "Forum pinup"

:idc:

[GoldHeart]

was this borderline transphobic?

idk ‘prick’ just doesn’t seem like a gender neutral insult to me and something you are much more likely to say to a man

FFS give me a break!!!! :notimpressed:. Women get called male insults all the time and this isn't the first time in BB history .

You're basically clutching at straws and you're falling for India's victim card :bored:.

[BBDodge]

I'd call her a c word. Would that be better?

[Gusto Brunt]

India could drive a Priest to swear. She is an appalling housemate and person.

[Livia]

Oh please... Something else they're not allowed to say to India? She IS a prick. And she's also a 'see you en teee'. There... two genders covered.

[Niamh.]

I've often heard women be called dickhead not so much Prick but still though depends on the person, where they're from etc For example Gav calls my boy all the time, it's just a thing where we're from to put boy at the end of sentences :laugh:

[TomC]

Stephanie McMichael was called a prick!

[GoldHeart]

Oh please... Something else they're not allowed to say to India? She IS a prick. And she's also a 'see you en teee'. There... two genders covered.

Exactly
I'm sick of this ! . Men get called Bitch and the C word all the time and women get called what Andrew called India all the time as well .
People should get over it :bored: .

[caprimint]

He also said that he has always seen her as a woman, so can't really disagree just because of the word 'prick' when it's not gender specific

[LemonJam]

I've called women pircks before. I wouldn't say it's a gender exclusive insult.

[waterhog]

great vocabulary - I feel like some poetry - going to do one on on my fav desert - spotted ???? :laugh:

[LemonJam]

Perched for waterhogs poetry about throbbing cock.

[Daniel-X]

I've called my friends pricks before in arguments/as a joke, I don't consider any insult besides 'bitch' 'slag' etc. gender specific really.

[bots]

He used the word dickhead which more often than not is directed at men. I'm quite sure he meant it as such. I don't honestly blame him as he was angry and India was being insufferable

[Niamh.]

He used the word dickhead which more often than not is directed at men. I'm quite sure he meant it as such. I don't honestly blame him as he was angry and India was being insufferable

he used both words, dickhead and prick

[Crimson Dynamo]

listen, take it from me, when he was calling India a dickhead he was calling HIM a dickhead


fact

[Crimson Dynamo]

and he chose his words carefully....to hurt

[Cherie]

was this borderline transphobic?

idk ‘prick’ just doesn’t seem like a gender neutral insult to me and something you are much more likely to say to a man

No

[bots]

he used both words, dickhead and prick

whether subconsciously or not, he was insulting her as if she were a man. I think because he was angry it was a subconscious thing and I'm sorry, but no-one can help that, its just a fact of life.

[GoldHeart]

I've called my friends pricks before in arguments/as a joke, I don't consider any insult besides 'bitch' 'slag' etc. gender specific really.

But men get called bitch and slag as well :rolleyes: .

[Niamh.]

whether subconsciously or not, he was insulting her as if she were a man. I think because he was angry it was a subconscious thing and I'm sorry, but no-one can help that, its just a fact of life.

Quite possibly

[Shaun]

I generally consider all swear words to be neutral and apply to either gender, tbh, even if they're slang words for either set of genitals. So no. India's a prick and Daniel's a twat.

[Daniel-X]

But men get called bitch and slag as well :rolleyes: .

Well I associate them with women, personally. Not saying that men wouldn't get called it but I associate it with a woman.

[bots]

Quite possibly

I mean LT and I are both straight guys, we know exactly what we mean when we say these things. That's where our judgments come from. Prick is a much softer slur than dickhead, and dickhead is most definitely restricted to males

[GoldHeart]

Well I associate them with women, personally. Not saying that men wouldn't get called it but I associate it with a woman.

Maybe so but they're just insults towards both men & women :idc: .
And if Andrew called Rachel that word I bet nobody would find it weird :sleep: .

[Niamh.]

Well I associate them with women, personally. Not saying that men wouldn't get called it but I associate it with a woman.

They definitely are "female" insults but when they're used towards men it's usually because they're accusing the man of displaying some sort of stereotypical negative female trait ie. Slag : Sleeping around in a negative view=woman (whereas if you're complimenting or admiring the man for getting all the ladies then he goes back to being male like a stud or whatever) Then Bitch - The guy is behaving like a woman because he's talking nastily behind a persons back etc because of course a man acting like a man could never do something as petty as that...................all very standard everyday sexism

[Niamh.]

I mean LT and I are both straight guys, we know exactly what we mean when we say these things. That's where our judgments come from. Prick is a much softer slur than dickhead, and dickhead is most definitely restricted to males

It still does depend where you're from though, I have very often heard girls being referred to as dickheads, I've called women dickheads before as well

[chuff me dizzy]

It still does depend where you're from though, I have very often heard girls being referred to as dickheads, I've called women dickheads before as well

So have I if they don't indicate or pull out straight in front of me !!

[Brillopad]

was this borderline transphobic?

idk ‘prick’ just doesn’t seem like a gender neutral insult to me and something you are much more likely to say to a man

Clutching at straws there I would say. She is lucky he is as nice as he is and didn’t give her the piece of their mind she deserved that many would have.

And some of those stupid women need to stop pandering to her just because they think it will get them brownie points with the PC brigade.

[Jamie89]

It still does depend where you're from though, I have very often heard girls being referred to as dickheads, I've called women dickheads before as well

This. It's more common in the north of England for example (which is where Andrew's from I think?) than the south, really don't think there was anything gender related in either the 'prick' or 'dickhead' comments or that he was thinking of her as a man when he said them. Some people don't consider gender at all when using those words.

[GoldHeart]

Godsake this debate is tiresome :sleep: .
I have heard women get called those insults in BB in the past and on other TV shows .
Just like I've heard guys get called all sorts on TV shows as well .

[Northern Monkey]

In these modern times of progressive gender neutrality and female equality women should be afforded the opportunity to be insulted in the same manner that a man would be.We need to move on from these gender specific slurs and embrace a new more inclusive way to communicate.


So basically India = Prick and Dickhead.

[Kazanne]

Oh please... Something else they're not allowed to say to India? She IS a prick. And she's also a 'see you en teee'. There... two genders covered.

:joker::joker: Only our Livia

[armand.kay]

prick is gender neutral where I'm from?

[AnnieK]

I mean LT and I are both straight guys, we know exactly what we mean when we say these things. That's where our judgments come from. Prick is a much softer slur than dickhead, and dickhead is most definitely restricted to males

Not where I'm from its not. Anyone can be a dickhead....or a prick.....or a twat.....etc etc......not gender specific in the slightest. Maybe a northern thing but as I said in another thread here in Manchester if you act like a dickhead you'll get called.one, man or woman

[Tom4784]

I didn't think it was. I've heard prick and dickhead used as insults towards women before.

[smudgie]

I have both called women dickheads and pricks before and been called both myself.

Daft prick is a quite common saying to either sexes.

[Niamh.]

I have both called women dickheads and pricks before and been called both myself.

Daft prick is a quite common saying to either sexes.

I can't believe that Smudgie :o

[Vanessa]

He was right though :joker:

[GoldHeart]

He was right though :joker:

Thank you :clap1: . Someone should call that to her face .

[jaxie]

I think people have words thy use when they are angry and obviously prick and dickhead are words that Andrew uses. I don't think it's any indication of the sex of the person he is angry at. They are just go to words. Some people will always use the word c you next tuesday but they aren't calling every one they are mad at a woman.

[Firewire]

She is a prick

[Crimson Dynamo]

Prickhead?

[Ashley.]

Gender-specific swear words? Now I've heard everything.

I can think of numerous women who I'd classify as a prick. India's one of them.

[hijaxers]

Gender-specific swear words? Now I've heard everything.

I can think of numerous women who I'd classify as a prick. India's one of them.

Same she's a massive one !

[Jimrod]

His "Dickhead" comment was made to a man not a woman so he sees her as a man not a woman

disgusting transphobia from the "Forum pinup"

:idc:

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

[GoldHeart]

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

:clap1: That's it say the truth it's music to our ears .

[Patricia4]

He did right because that is what she is a big one.

[Livia]

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Great post.

At least 90% of people claiming a "phobia" need a reality check, in my opinion.

[Brillopad]

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Spot on.

[Northern Monkey]

This modern use of "phobia" is a bollocks term, is there any indication that Andrew has an irrational fear or aversion to India because she's trans? No.

If Andrew sees India as a man, as you say he does, then tough - just because someone wants to identify as they please it doesn't mean they can force others to think how they want them to as well. India grew as a man, she's a man who's had surgery and feels that that she's a woman inside, that's all.

India's "phobia" of drag queens is far worse than any other in the house because it's a lie, it's jealousy that someone's stealing her thunder, taking her preachy self-righteous limelight. She's a crap example of a human being and will do trans people no favours with her behaviour.

Truth right here.

[Vicky.]

Is it really transphobic to see a transwoman as a male person though? Especially a transwoman who goes on constantly about 'when I was a man' and such? I really don't think it is.

But I agree, the prick and dickhead were likely as he does see India as a male person. But India IS a male person. And reminds everyone of this on a regular basis.

Personally I would say transphobic would be saying (for example) 'disgusting ******' or something about how India is trans and you disagree with India being trans. Not that India is a male person.

[Vicky.]

Gender-specific swear words? Now I've heard everything.

I can think of numerous women who I'd classify as a prick. India's one of them.

Do you really not have swear words that tend to be for one sex? A lot of people in this thread have said that and a few in the other thread...where I am from dickhead and wanker and prick are typically used for men (though not exclusively) and the likes of bitch are used for women. Twat is for both.

This is news to me, that it seems to be my area :laugh: And scotts, possibly

[Livia]

Is it really transphobic to see a transwoman as a male person though? Especially a transwoman who goes on constantly about 'when I was a man' and such? I really don't think it is.

But I agree, the prick and dickhead were likely as he does see India as a male person. But India IS a male person. And reminds everyone of this on a regular basis.

Personally I would say transphobic would be saying (for example) 'disgusting ******' or something about how India is trans and you disagree with India being trans. Not that India is a male person.

Agree with all of that.

[Shaun]

Is it really transphobic to see a transwoman as a male person though? Especially a transwoman who goes on constantly about 'when I was a man' and such? I really don't think it is.

But I agree, the prick and dickhead were likely as he does see India as a male person. But India IS a male person. And reminds everyone of this on a regular basis.

Personally I would say transphobic would be saying (for example) 'disgusting ******' or something about how India is trans and you disagree with India being trans. Not that India is a male person.

If you'd said India WAS a male person I'd understand but nah this is just pretty ignorant and not really helping, tbh. I get the trans women =/= cis women argument but calling her a male person now just doesn't make sense to me.

Her talking about her past is understandable in explaining the context of what motivated her to transition, but shouldn't give green light to a group of people just calling her a man because they don't like her and she's an annoying housemate. If someone were to get a gastric band and then talk about why they didn't enjoy being fat, and how different they feel now, people wouldn't really still call them fat if they were now of an average shape :laugh:

I think this series is just giving ignorant people justification to get away with all sorts of insults about transgender people.

[Vicky.]

If you'd said India WAS a male person I'd understand but nah this is just pretty ignorant and not really helping, tbh. I get the trans women =/= cis women argument but calling her a male person now just doesn't make sense to me.

Her talking about her past is understandable in explaining the context of what motivated her to transition, but shouldn't give green light to a group of people just calling her a man because they don't like her and she's an annoying housemate. If someone were to get a gastric band and then talk about why they didn't enjoy being fat, and how different they feel now, people wouldn't really still call them fat if they were now of an average shape :laugh:

I think this series is just giving ignorant people justification to get away with all sorts of insults about transgender people.

Why? She IS a male person. Yes she has had surgeries and such to resemble a woman but she is still male. And you cannot undo 50 years of male social conditioning.

I reckon if she just st fu for a bit about her transition and being male, people would actually maybe see her as a woman. But whilst shes constantly going on about it and...dare I say acting like a male person...a lot of people will see her as a male person. Compared to the likes of Nadia and Luke A...who barely spoke about it and for them it seemed being trans was a small part of who they are, whilst being trans seems to be ALL India is.

[Livia]

If you'd said India WAS a male person I'd understand but nah this is just pretty ignorant and not really helping, tbh. I get the trans women =/= cis women argument but calling her a male person now just doesn't make sense to me.

Her talking about her past is understandable in explaining the context of what motivated her to transition, but shouldn't give green light to a group of people just calling her a man because they don't like her and she's an annoying housemate. If someone were to get a gastric band and then talk about why they didn't enjoy being fat, and how different they feel now, people wouldn't really still call them fat if they were now of an average shape :laugh:

I think this series is just giving ignorant people justification to get away with all sorts of insults about transgender people.


India keeps talking about when she was a man and (and I say this with no insult intended) she looks like a man and dresses like a teenage girl.

I think that by putting India in the house they've set back the Trans community a couple of years. I've seen trans women on TV before, and I've met a few in real life, worked with one even, and I have never in my life seen someone so self-centred and ready to be a victim as India. Shame... it might have been a good experience, like it was when Luke A won. He was a good ambassador the the trans community, I think.

[Livia]

Why? She IS a male person. Yes she has had surgeries and such to resemble a woman but she is still male. And you cannot undo 50 years of male social conditioning.

I reckon if she just st fu for a bit about her transition and being male, people would actually maybe see her as a woman. But whilst shes constantly going on about it and...dare I say acting like a male person...a lot of people will see her as a male person. Compared to the likes of Nadia and Luke A...who barely spoke about it and for them it seemed being trans was a small part of who they are, whilst being trans seems to be ALL India is.

Sentence of the week, for me.

[Shaun]

Why? She IS a male person. Yes she has had surgeries and such to resemble a woman but she is still male. And you cannot undo 50 years of male social conditioning.

I reckon if she just st fu for a bit about her transition and being male, people would actually maybe see her as a woman. But whilst shes constantly going on about it and...dare I say acting like a male person...a lot of people will see her as a male person. Compared to the likes of Nadia and Luke A...who barely spoke about it and for them it seemed being trans was a small part of who they are, whilst being trans seems to be ALL India is.

Oh definitely, she's deeply insecure and taking offense to everything, but I don't see why that still makes her male. The social conditioning is a good point, and an example of why she'd never be able to relate to women fully, but at the same time you could argue that gay people, in the closet for however many number of years, are/were subject to a lifetime of heterosexual conditioning by family members, the media, friends etc. and yet are still gay.

Male social conditioning could mean many things really and as Andrew pointed out in his argument with India, he wouldn't be comfortable with how he dresses/speaks in, say, a more macho environment. Yet he's still benefited from this male conditioning, whereas she's presumably been suppressed by it (I say 'presumably' because I don't know how long ago it was that she transitioned / even wanted to transition).

India keeps talking about when she was a man and (and I say this with no insult intended) she looks like a man and dresses like a teenage girl.

I think that by putting India in the house they've set back the Trans community a couple of years. I've seen trans women on TV before, and I've met a few in real life, worked with one even, and I have never in my life seen someone so self-centred and ready to be a victim as India. Shame... it might have been a good experience, like it was when Luke A won. He was a good ambassador the the trans community, I think.

I don't really buy the "ambassador for the _____ community" stuff, really, and not sure why she should be an example of how to treat and view everyone else inside it. If it's set them back then that's because people are viewing them all as the same :shrug: The only community she's really set back imo is the "narcissistic crybaby" community, and thankfully that's just This Morning guests.

[Vicky.]

Oh definitely, she's deeply insecure and taking offense to everything, but I don't see why that still makes her male. The social conditioning is a good point, and an example of why she'd never be able to relate to women fully, but at the same time you could argue that gay people, in the closet for however many number of years, are/were subject to a lifetime of heterosexual conditioning by family members, the media, friends etc. and yet are still gay.

Male social conditioning could mean many things really and as Andrew pointed out in his argument with India, he wouldn't be comfortable with how he dresses/speaks in, say, a more macho environment. Yet he's still benefited from this male conditioning, whereas she's presumably been suppressed by it (I say 'presumably' because I don't know how long ago it was that she transitioned / even wanted to transition).




Well being insecure is not what makes India male. Biology is what makes India male. And India constantly going on about being male (and acting male) is why others are seeing India as male rather than as a woman.

I just said in admin actually that its quite unnerving for me this year as with Luke and Nadia I did see them as the sex they wanted to be...but with India I just do not at all. Not sure if its because India passes so badly, or Indias attitude/behaviour (like a typical male..sorry but no woman would be creaming her breasts infront of others and stating that breasts are just like an arm) or what but generally I do see fully transitioned transsexuals as the sex they wish they were. Or if its because my eyes have been opened to the behavior of extreme transactivists fairly recently which has changed my opinion on the whole topic almost completely. Whatever it is, I don't like it at all :S

I don't think gay people are a relevant comparison here. Do people treat gay people differently on whether they are out or not? In the same extreme way that women and men are treat differently from birth?

[Niamh.]

Oh definitely, she's deeply insecure and taking offense to everything, but I don't see why that still makes her male. The social conditioning is a good point, and an example of why she'd never be able to relate to women fully, but at the same time you could argue that gay people, in the closet for however many number of years, are/were subject to a lifetime of heterosexual conditioning by family members, the media, friends etc. and yet are still gay.

Male social conditioning could mean many things really and as Andrew pointed out in his argument with India, he wouldn't be comfortable with how he dresses/speaks in, say, a more macho environment. Yet he's still benefited from this male conditioning, whereas she's presumably been suppressed by it (I say 'presumably' because I don't know how long ago it was that she transitioned / even wanted to transition).



I don't really buy the "ambassador for the _____ community" stuff, really, and not sure why she should be an example of how to treat and view everyone else inside it. If it's set them back then that's because people are viewing them all as the same :shrug: The only community she's really set back imo is the "narcissistic crybaby" community, and thankfully that's just This Morning guests.

That's different though, being gay is just who you are sexually attracted to. Where as part of being a woman involves how you are treated all through your life as a woman, as a girl, as a teenager. Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

[Vicky.]

That's different though, being gay is just who you are sexually attracted to. Where as part of being a woman involves how you are treated all through your life as a woman, as a girl, as a teenager. Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

Yes, you put it much better than me :laugh:

[tanussa]

FFS give me a break!!!! :notimpressed:. Women get called male insults all the time and this isn't the first time in BB history .

You're basically clutching at straws and you're falling for India's victim card :bored:.

you took the words out of my mouth

[GreenIce]

Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

And married a woman and fathered a son. So was India a lesbian woman trapped in a man's body back then and now she's a straight woman? :puzzled:

[Niamh.]

And married a woman and fathered a son. So was India a lesbian woman trapped in a man's body back then and now she's a straight woman? :puzzled:

Well that's a different point entirely to what I was trying to make. I guess people live lies alot when trying to hide stuff

[Shaun]

Well being insecure is not what makes India male. Biology is what makes India male. And India constantly going on about being male (and acting male) is why others are seeing India as male rather than as a woman.

I just said in admin actually that its quite unnerving for me this year as with Luke and Nadia I did see them as the sex they wanted to be...but with India I just do not at all. Not sure if its because India passes so badly, or Indias attitude/behaviour (like a typical male..sorry but no woman would be creaming her breasts infront of others and stating that breasts are just like an arm) or what but generally I do see fully transitioned transsexuals as the sex they wish they were. Or if its because my eyes have been opened to the behavior of extreme transactivists fairly recently which has changed my opinion on the whole topic almost completely. Whatever it is, I don't like it at all :S

I don't think gay people are a relevant comparison here. Do people treat gay people differently on whether they are out or not? In the same extreme way that women and men are treat differently from birth?

I guess a better example for India would be - did you watch the series with Kellie Maloney? She was also deeply insecure and largely unpopular on here (perhaps not to the overbearing extent that India is now - because she had James Jordan, Frenchy and White Dee to contest with :laugh:) and because of the very recent nature of her transition at that time, she, obviously, still looked very 'male' and as such I think was treated more as a joke than as a fully fledged transition that was now happy and who they wanted to be.

Botched surgery is definitely a factor and I think that's unfortunate (also perhaps age: if someone transitions when younger, as indeed Luke and Nadia did, the effect is probably more 'convincing' because of, idk, young skin being more malleable and forgiving :p)

India is a unique (to Big Brother anyway) case though in that she keeps distancing herself from the more feminine housemates. Even wanting the males to enter the house because she thought the women were too bitchy (how progressive :rolleyes:) so I definitely think there's some internalised misogyny on her part.

That's different though, being gay is just who you are sexually attracted to. Where as part of being a woman involves how you are treated all through your life as a woman, as a girl, as a teenager. Whilst India may have felt like she was a woman for those 50 years when she was living as a man, she was still being treated like a boy, a teenage boy and a man

It does have a large influence over who you socialise with and feel comfortable with, though, which is why I suggested it - the enforcement of heterosexuality as the norm does also have a demoralising effect. Without even taking into consideration the legality aspect (it would've been decriminalised the year she was born so not TOO important I guess lol, but still recent history), it's an example of how the idea of masculinity and male privilege isn't as all-encompassing as it may be seen as, if it's not including queer/trans people.

I'll concede though that I know nothing of the female struggle so I'm trying my best not to mansplain :laugh: my point is just that there are times when "male privilege" doesn't feel that powerful (and I admit, there are many times when it's taken for granted and not noticed)

[Vicky.]

And married a woman and fathered a son. So was India a lesbian woman trapped in a man's body back then and now she's a straight woman? :puzzled:

Its not really any different to gay people marrying women (or men in the cases of lesbians...not sure if thats as common though) and having kids. India was a gay man not admitting to themselves about being gay, or purposely hiding it...

Or India is and always was bi. As sexuality does not just change like that..surely :laugh: That would kind of imply its a choice, and I am sure many people would disagree with that. I know I disagree that sexuality is a choice, which is why I have no issues at all with Genuwine not wanting to shag a male person, as a straight man.

I am kind of uncomfortable talking in depth about someone elses sexuality tbh. Only India knows this for sure.

[ethanjames]

honestly I call people regardless of the gender they identify as pricks or dickheads idk why anyone would be debating

[Niamh.]

I guess a better example for India would be - did you watch the series with Kellie Maloney? She was also deeply insecure and largely unpopular on here (perhaps not to the overbearing extent that India is now - because she had James Jordan, Frenchy and White Dee to contest with :laugh:) and because of the very recent nature of her transition at that time, she, obviously, still looked very 'male' and as such I think was treated more as a joke than as a fully fledged transition that was now happy and who they wanted to be.

Botched surgery is definitely a factor and I think that's unfortunate (also perhaps age: if someone transitions when younger, as indeed Luke and Nadia did, the effect is probably more 'convincing' because of, idk, young skin being more malleable and forgiving :p)

India is a unique (to Big Brother anyway) case though in that she keeps distancing herself from the more feminine housemates. Even wanting the males to enter the house because she thought the women were too bitchy (how progressive :rolleyes:) so I definitely think there's some internalised misogyny on her part.



It does have a large influence over who you socialise with and feel comfortable with, though, which is why I suggested it - the enforcement of heterosexuality as the norm does also have a demoralising effect. Without even taking into consideration the legality aspect (it would've been decriminalised the year she was born so not TOO important I guess lol, but still recent history), it's an example of how the idea of masculinity and male privilege isn't as all-encompassing as it may be seen as, if it's not including queer/trans people.

I'll concede though that I know nothing of the female struggle so I'm trying my best not to mansplain :laugh: my point is just that there are times when "male privilege" doesn't feel that powerful (and I admit, there are many times when it's taken for granted and not noticed)

I'm not taking it as mansplaining :laugh: I think we're each looking at it it from our own experiences which will be totally different but that in itself kind shows what I mean (or else I've just confused you even more, one or the other)

[Vicky.]

I guess a better example for India would be - did you watch the series with Kellie Maloney? She was also deeply insecure and largely unpopular on here (perhaps not to the overbearing extent that India is now - because she had James Jordan, Frenchy and White Dee to contest with :laugh:) and because of the very recent nature of her transition at that time, she, obviously, still looked very 'male' and as such I think was treated more as a joke than as a fully fledged transition that was now happy and who they wanted to be.

Botched surgery is definitely a factor and I think that's unfortunate (also perhaps age: if someone transitions when younger, as indeed Luke and Nadia did, the effect is probably more 'convincing' because of, idk, young skin being more malleable and forgiving :p)

India is a unique (to Big Brother anyway) case though in that she keeps distancing herself from the more feminine housemates. Even wanting the males to enter the house because she thought the women were too bitchy (how progressive :rolleyes:) so I definitely think there's some internalised misogyny on her part.



I guess thats a fair point. I did have issues taking Kellies transition seriously...not helped by the first thing Kellie did in the house was trying to get Audley to say something transphobic :laugh: I loved Audley just being so...'whatever' about it all. Another reason I had problems accepting Kellie 'as a woman' was her blaming every bad thing about her personality on Frank. She blamed trying to kill her wife on Frank and said Kellie is a different person...no. Kellie IS frank. Also Kellie from what I remember squared up to a woman...which made me think 'man', just the way it was done. Kellie brought up Frank on a regular basis. So again, Kellie was one who acted like a male person and constantly brought up her 'alter ego' I am sure she called it :S

Even with all of this said though, I admit I did not see Kellie as a woman, but not quite to the extent that I am having problems accepting India as a woman.

And yes, India is misogynistic. Which does not help in trying to see her 'as a woman'. I know some women are misogynistic, but it just shows more from a male person I think

[Vicky.]

And no, you are not mansplaining :p This is a really interesting conversation to me actually. Its great to disagree so much, but in a civil way rather than throwing 'isms' and 'phobia' about. Kind of like Shane disagreeing with Ann about the gay rights thing the other day. Adults should be able to discuss things without trying to shut the other down IMO. Dialogue is very much needed

[Niamh.]

I guess thats a fair point. I did have issues taking Kellies transition seriously...not helped by the first thing Kellie did in the house was trying to get Audley to say something transphobic :laugh: I loved Audley just being so...'whatever' about it all. Another reason I had problems accepting Kellie 'as a woman' was her blaming every bad thing about her personality on Frank. She blamed trying to kill her wife on Frank and said Kellie is a different person...no. Kellie IS frank. Also Kellie from what I remember squared up to a woman...which made me think 'man', just the way it was done. Kellie brought up Frank on a regular basis. So again, Kellie was one who acted like a male person and constantly brought up her 'alter ego' I am sure she called it :S

Even with all of this said though, I admit I did not see Kellie as a woman, but not quite to the extent that I am having problems accepting India as a woman.

And yes, India is misogynistic. Which does not help in trying to see her 'as a woman'. I know some women are misogynistic, but it just shows more from a male person I think

Also, I'm finding all this dragqueenphobic stuff in really poor taste as well, Shane J seems like a really lovely person, tolerant, level headed and accepting of everyone but the way India is carrying on around him being a drag queen/making people up as drag queens is so rude and offensive, it's such hypocrisy

[Ashley.]

Do you really not have swear words that tend to be for one sex? A lot of people in this thread have said that and a few in the other thread...where I am from dickhead and wanker and prick are typically used for men (though not exclusively) and the likes of bitch are used for women. Twat is for both.

This is news to me, that it seems to be my area :laugh: And scotts, possibly

Not really, no... And besides, I hate the word 'bitch'.

[Vicky.]

Not really, no... And besides, I hate the word 'bitch'.

I hate the word too oddly enough, but I use it even when I don't want to. Possibly as I heard it so much as a teen so its kind of..deeply ingrained. I also use the C word pretty regularly when I hate that too D: Though it is quite satisfying to say if someone is being an utter dick

[Shaun]

I guess thats a fair point. I did have issues taking Kellies transition seriously...not helped by the first thing Kellie did in the house was trying to get Audley to say something transphobic :laugh: I loved Audley just being so...'whatever' about it all. Another reason I had problems accepting Kellie 'as a woman' was her blaming every bad thing about her personality on Frank. She blamed trying to kill her wife on Frank and said Kellie is a different person...no. Kellie IS frank. Also Kellie from what I remember squared up to a woman...which made me think 'man', just the way it was done. Kellie brought up Frank on a regular basis. So again, Kellie was one who acted like a male person and constantly brought up her 'alter ego' I am sure she called it :S

Even with all of this said though, I admit I did not see Kellie as a woman, but not quite to the extent that I am having problems accepting India as a woman.

And yes, India is misogynistic. Which does not help in trying to see her 'as a woman'. I know some women are misogynistic, but it just shows more from a male person I think

I guess I understand, in that it takes more than just the surgical procedure to become an entirely opposite part of the spectrum (just as how it's impossible to go from 'gay' to 'straight' - unless you're TwentyOneThrones' ex-boyfriend :worry:) but with the reasoning explained by Shane J on why gender and sex are two different things, that's where I disagree with still calling her 'male' (indeed you still keep saying 'her' or 'she', I've noticed :laugh:)

There's not really a comparable instance to relate, I guess, to people who believe they're born in the wrong body, which is why it makes explaining the idea of transitioning a bit like trying to explain death to a 5 year-old... it's there but idk what it is :shrug: :laugh: and it's more difficult a term to put under one label than, say, black and white people, Jewish and Christian people, or any other more obvious divisions, since everyone has different experiences with how they've been raised (did they have open-minded parents, were they ever in a relationship with someone they wouldn't now, do they have children, were they abused, have they always known, are they even sure, do they want to fully transition, do they keep the penis/vagina... x100) which is why I get annoyed when people treat India as a green card to laugh at the word '******' and whatever dumb nonsense is also all over Facebook and Twitter posts about her, because of other (hopefully more reasonable and likeable) people who are in a similar boat to her that may be reading.

I forgot about Kellie referring to Frank as if it were her Mr. Hyde persona, that was weird. But I seem to recall her getting along with Audley? He was just a bit taken aback on launch night because I don't think he knew? idk it's been a while lol.

....remember when Scott made threads and people would just reply with 'PTL' :unsure:

[Ashley.]

Is it really transphobic to see a transwoman as a male person though? Especially a transwoman who goes on constantly about 'when I was a man' and such? I really don't think it is.

But I agree, the prick and dickhead were likely as he does see India as a male person. But India IS a male person. And reminds everyone of this on a regular basis.

Personally I would say transphobic would be saying (for example) 'disgusting ******' or something about how India is trans and you disagree with India being trans. Not that India is a male person.

I agree. But I think it's definitely down to the fact that India won't stop talking about it... Because I never had a problem with seeing Luke A as a male.

[Ashley.]

I hate the word too oddly enough, but I use it even when I don't want to. Possibly as I heard it so much as a teen so its kind of..deeply ingrained. I also use the C word pretty regularly when I hate that too D: Though it is quite satisfying to say if someone is being an utter dick

Yeah, those two words are pretty much no-go's for me. :laugh:

[Vicky.]

I guess I understand, in that it takes more than just the surgical procedure to become an entirely opposite part of the spectrum (just as how it's impossible to go from 'gay' to 'straight' - unless you're TwentyOneThrones' ex-boyfriend :worry:) but with the reasoning explained by Shane J on why gender and sex are two different things, that's where I disagree with still calling her 'male' (indeed you still keep saying 'her' or 'she', I've noticed :laugh:)

There's not really a comparable instance to relate, I guess, to people who believe they're born in the wrong body, which is why it makes explaining the idea of transitioning a bit like trying to explain death to a 5 year-old... it's there but idk what it is :shrug: :laugh: and it's more difficult a term to put under one label than, say, black and white people, Jewish and Christian people, or any other more obvious divisions, since everyone has different experiences with how they've been raised (did they have open-minded parents, were they ever in a relationship with someone they wouldn't now, do they have children, were they abused, have they always known, are they even sure, do they want to fully transition, do they keep the penis/vagina... x100) which is why I get annoyed when people treat India as a green card to laugh at the word '******' and whatever dumb nonsense is also all over Facebook and Twitter posts about her, because of other (hopefully more reasonable and likeable) people who are in a similar boat to her that may be reading.

I forgot about Kellie referring to Frank as if it were her Mr. Hyde persona, that was weird. But I seem to recall her getting along with Audley? He was just a bit taken aback on launch night because I don't think he knew? idk it's been a while lol.

....remember when Scott made threads and people would just reply with 'PTL' :unsure:

I got told off last night for using them/they. But the reason I was using gender neutral pronouns is because I do see India as male through her behaviour and such...so I know trying to use she I will slip up sometimes. But someone pointed out how using 'them/they' was dehumanizing or something like that so I realised that it may not be looking as I intended it to look so am now trying to use she...but if I use he unintentionally I know there will be someone waiting to pounce to say 'aha'. And I would never ever use the word '******' even though its apparently fine now (according to some people) same as I would never use queer, as far too many mates find it ridiculously offensive, even if a few people say its fine to use now. Yes, many of the facebook/twitter comments are way out of line and definitely transphobic. I feel there is a difference between having my opinions (basically that you can have surgeries to mimic the opposite sex but socialization is also important and sex cannot actually be changed) and being transphobic. And I also do not think that saying a straight man would not shag a transsexual woman is transphobic either, which luckily the majority seem to agree with :laugh:

Yes, to me gender and sex are different things too. Another reason why I do in the back of my mind see transwomen as male. As they are male people. Its fairly easy to forget that they are male though, if they do not act like male people (and possibly look like male people too..though I know thats shallow)

[Amy Jade]

I don't think he's that malicious to be honest.

I can understand why somebody could see otherwise though I suppose

[Greg!]

Stephanie McMichael was called a prick!

worreva ur a fookin prick!

[Withano]

I would say that dickhead and prick are most commonly swears aimed at men, but theyre not exclusively aimed at men. It might be transphobia (on some subconscious level) but we'll never know either way.

[montblanc]

subconsciously i do believe so

[Ammi]

whether subconsciously or not, he was insulting her as if she were a man. I think because he was angry it was a subconscious thing and I'm sorry, but no-one can help that, its just a fact of life.

..yeah I think this also...the shame of it is as well I think, with the few ‘misgenders’ from the female housemates it’s all just feeding into India’s ‘victim complex’ more and more..becAuse she’s able to interpret is as...oh the women don’t accept me as a woman, because of the ‘he’ references and obviously now the name calling as if she were a man from one of the men....so for India..?...she doesn’t have to look at or address her behaviour which isn’t great, she just becomes more and more the victim as she will see it I fear and because she’s transgender and ‘unaccepted’....rather than just an irritation to those sharing a space with her because of her personality....