Donald Trump denounces immigration from 's***hole countries'

[Northern Monkey]

President Donald Trump has questioned why the US should allow more immigrants from "****hole countries" during a meeting with legislators about a proposed bipartisan deal on immigration.

Mr Trump made the profane remark after Democratic senator Richard Durbin told him a lottery for visas would be ended under the proposal, according to several sources who spoke on condition of anonymity.

In exchange, Mr Durbin said people fleeing from countries suffering from natural disasters or civil strife, including Haiti and El Salvador, would be allowed to stay in the US.

Mr Trump specifically questioned why the US would want to admit more people from Haiti, and also mentioned Africa, the sources said.

One of the sources who was briefed on the conversation quoted Mr Trump as saying: "Why do we want all these people from Africa here? They're ****hole countries... We should have more people from Norway."





https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trump-denounces-immigration-from-hole-countries-11204049

[Crimson Dynamo]

in other words he said what most of America would say (and most of the UK)

[arista]

Donald Trump abandons plans to open US embassy in London because of 'bad deal'

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trump-abandons-plans-to-open-new-us-embassy-in-london-11204052

[Crimson Dynamo]

Donald Trump abandons plans to open US embassy in London because of 'bad deal'

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trump-abandons-plans-to-open-new-us-embassy-in-london-11204052

yes they sold the Grosvenor place spot for a song and moved it to some "sarf" of the river place

:umm2:

[bots]

:skull:

[Smithy]

Donald trump in racism shocker

[Kazanne]

Well Trump is supposed to be doing the best for America not other countries,maybe we should all look after our own.

[Crimson Dynamo]

pointless pretending all countries are the same or that you want folk from these countries

truth hurts

[DemolitionRed]

Thats all fine and good, but why would the blue eyed, blonde haired pale skinned Norwegians want to emigrate to America when they live in a country that has low corruption, a decent living wage, reliable health care, a more accepted passport and higher happiness?

[Oliver_W]

Not the best choice of words, but why would you want people to come from the worst countries? What would they have to offer to their prospective host country?

[Alf]

Not the best choice of words, but why would you want people to come from the worst countries? What would they have to offer to their prospective host country?Is the top answer crime?

[DemolitionRed]

Not the best choice of words, but why would you want people to come from the worst countries? What would they have to offer to their prospective host country?

What do conditions in the whole of Africa (many African countries have very good conditions), Haiti, or El Salvador have to do with whether or not someone can contribute to their country? He's talking about immigration and so he's not just saying these are siht countries, he's saying they are siht people.

[bots]

Not the best choice of words, but why would you want people to come from the worst countries? What would they have to offer to their prospective host country?

Many people that arrive from other countries are very hard working. We only need to look at the UK to see how much we have benefited from their arrival. Granted the EU have ruined that perception, but its true none the less

[Tom4784]

The president, everybody.

[Vicky.]

Ouch..he is getting worse by the day.

[Smithy]

Well Trump is supposed to be doing the best for America not other countries,maybe we should all look after our own.

Not the best choice of words, but why would you want people to come from the worst countries? What would they have to offer to their prospective host country?

951615037973594113

:wavey:

[MB.]

The lengths people are willing to go to in order to defend this man are embarrassing

[Vicky.]

951615037973594113

:wavey:

Indeed. Trump is an embarrassment. Absolute man child. And one of the most powerful people in the world too...its really quite scary

[Kazanne]

The lengths people are willing to go to in order to defend this man are embarrassing

I am not defending him,I am just not sure everything the media puts out about him is actually true,in other words I do not trust what some of the media say,there seems to be certain sectors that revel in digging up any old dirt and twisting it because they do not like him ,if he was proven to be all these things surely he would have been impeached now.

[Smithy]

The lengths people are willing to go to in order to defend this man are embarrassing

Imagine the uproar if he’d have said the “shïthole Conservative party”

[Denver]

Im surprised he hasnt been assassinated

[GiRTh]

I am not defending him,I am just not sure everything the media puts out about him is actually true,in other words I do not trust what some of the media say,there seems to be certain sectors that revel in digging up any old dirt and twisting it because they do not like him ,if he was proven to be all these things surely he would have been impeached now.:conf:

And he comes out with more falsehoods than many media organisatons. Just the other day he talked about selling military hardware that doesn't exist.

Trump just said the US sold Norway F-52s — but no such aircraft exists (http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-us-sold-norway-f-52s-2018-1?r=US&IR=T)

Not many republicans denouncing these comments

[arista]

Donald Trump denies '****hole countries' slur saying it was 'not the language used'

https://news.sky.com/story/trump-****hole-slur-not-the-language-used-11204521

[Donald Trump has responded to criticism about his alleged use
of the word "****hole" to describe migrant countries, saying
"this was not the language used".
While the President appeared to deny using the offensive term,
he did admit the language he used "was tough".
The President tweeted on Friday following criticism
from the UN and other countries.]

[Crimson Dynamo]

Thats all fine and good, but why would the blue eyed, blonde haired pale skinned Norwegians want to emigrate to America when they live in a country that has low corruption, a decent living wage, reliable health care, a more accepted passport and higher happiness?

some move for the weather and some for love

[Underscore]

Leader of the Free World guys.

[Oliver_W]

951615037973594113

:wavey:

Good for her!

Rubbish countries need doctors too, so hopefully she'll be an asset to her homeland <3

[DemolitionRed]

the NYTimes ran a story about a White House meeting in June where trump said all the Haitians had aids and the Africans needed to go back to their huts.
the White House vehemently denied that trump had made those comments. Well here we are a couple of weeks later and trump has made similar comments that pretty much confirms the NYTimes story. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/23/us/politics/trump-immigration.html

[Tom4784]

I am not defending him,I am just not sure everything the media puts out about him is actually true,in other words I do not trust what some of the media say,there seems to be certain sectors that revel in digging up any old dirt and twisting it because they do not like him ,if he was proven to be all these things surely he would have been impeached now.

He has told 1,950 lies in one year of being in office...... He's far more unreliable than the media.

The whole 'he'd have been impeached now if he did what they say he did' argument is a weak one, the investigation is still ongoing, it's not an instant thing you know, investigations like the one Trump is under takes time.

[GiRTh]

Sen. Tim Scott: Sen. Graham confirmed Trump's reported 's---hole' quote was accurate (http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/368744-sen-tim-scott-sen-graham-confirmed-trumps-reported-****hole)

Three people two Republicans and a Democrat appearing to confirm Trump's comment

EDIT - The site wont let me post the full link cuz of the word 'sh&t'

[Withano]

Daft ****

[Vanessa]

:facepalm:

[Alf]

Daft ****Is it punk?

[The Slim Reaper]

Donald Trump abandons plans to open US embassy in London because of 'bad deal'

https://news.sky.com/story/donald-trump-abandons-plans-to-open-new-us-embassy-in-london-11204052

His excuse was to blame Obama for a deal that was struck before he even became president.

[Kizzy]

Has he been to Detroit?

[Maru]

He's put himself in a perpetual sh*thole over his tweeting, but I won't hold my breath it'll change. He seems to love people obsessing over it as it keeps him the topic of the day...

[Northern Monkey]

The guy could be right.There are countries which are indeed ****holes.He can think what he likes.

However he’s not just your average bloke.He’s the POTUS and that role requires a thing called DIPLOMACY with a good dose of TACT.
Both arts that this president has certainly NOT mastered.

[DemolitionRed]

The guy could be right.There are countries which are indeed ****holes.He can think what he likes.

However he’s not just your average bloke.He’s the POTUS and that role requires a thing called DIPLOMACY with a good dose of TACT.
Both arts that this president has certainly NOT mastered.

He should of also reminded himself that America has a lot of **** holes.

[Northern Monkey]

He should of also reminded himself that America has a lot of **** holes.

Very true

[Crimson Dynamo]

He should of also reminded himself that America has a lot of **** holes.

but is a wealth creating hugely successful country that does massive good around the world

to try and pretend that a lot of country's are not sh1tholes is a bit daft

[user104658]

but is a wealth creating hugely successful country that does massive good around the world

to try and pretend that a lot of country's are not sh1tholes is a bit daftMaybe but for one, at least equally daft to sweeping claim that every country in an entire continent is a sh*thole (at the very least demonstrates that he knows next to nothing about Africa) and secondly... His point isn't just that they are failing states... It's that any person who COMES FROM a failing state will be a "failing person", which is obviously nonsense. Plenty of people from tough backgrounds are intelligent, productive and driven adults and plenty of people from privileged western backgrounds are lazy, thick and pig-ignorant.

Country of origin really says very little about an individual.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Maybe but for one, at least equally daft to sweeping claim that every country in an entire continent is a sh*thole (at the very least demonstrates that he knows next to nothing about Africa) and secondly... His point isn't just that they are failing states... It's that any person who COMES FROM a failing state will be a "failing person", which is obviously nonsense. Plenty of people from tough backgrounds are intelligent, productive and driven adults and plenty of people from privileged western backgrounds are lazy, thick and pig-ignorant.

Country of origin really says very little about an individual.

Hence the reason we should not be discussing bits of a conversation that was leaked with a pure agenda

[DemolitionRed]

but is a wealth creating hugely successful country that does massive good around the world

to try and pretend that a lot of country's are not sh1tholes is a bit daft

Nobody is saying a lot of countries aren't **** holes or that America doesn't do good around the world, but when you consider the massive domestic issues making America one of the most violent, racist countries in the world, soon bereft of even the most fundamental health care, saturated with guns and continual mass shootings, living in a hazy cowboy fantasy, governed by a repressive religious minority, so oppressive it jails more of its own citizens than any other regime inthe world I thing its accurate to say... it's a ****hole.

[Northern Monkey]

Nobody is saying a lot of countries aren't **** holes or that America doesn't do good around the world, but when you consider the massive domestic issues making America one of the most violent, racist countries in the world, soon bereft of even the most fundamental health care, saturated with guns and continual mass shootings, living in a hazy cowboy fantasy, governed by a repressive religious minority, so oppressive it jails more of its own citizens than any other regime inthe world I thing its accurate to say... it's a ****hole.

See this is where it’s gone too far for me.
I’d agree that America has places that are indeed ****holes but not that America as a whole is one.

When you look at the world the US is one of the best places you could live.

[DemolitionRed]

See this is where it’s gone too far for me.
I’d agree that America has places that are indeed ****holes but not that America as a whole is one.

When you look at the world the US is one of the best places you could live.

We will have to agree to disagree. Whilst California and New York are great places for a short holiday, America is on my list of countries I would least like to live.

Why would anyone want to move to a country where you pay around $400 a month in medical insurance and if you do fall ill a claims assessor looks for every possible way to not pay your claim?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkYCf4h5XgE

[Tom4784]

US is up there with Japan for countries I would not like to live in (obviously not counting war torn countries and the like).

It's nice for a holiday but I wouldn't live there, if you come down with a serious illness, you need to start a gofundme for a chance of getting treatment. **** that.

[Maru]

Nobody is saying a lot of countries aren't **** holes or that America doesn't do good around the world, but when you consider the massive domestic issues making America one of the most violent, racist countries in the world, soon bereft of even the most fundamental health care, saturated with guns and continual mass shootings, living in a hazy cowboy fantasy, governed by a repressive religious minority, so oppressive it jails more of its own citizens than any other regime inthe world I thing its accurate to say... it's a ****hole.

We will have to agree to disagree. Whilst California and New York are great places for a short holiday, America is on my list of countries I would least like to live.

Why would anyone want to move to a country where you pay around $400 a month in medical insurance and if you do fall ill a claims assessor looks for every possible way to not pay your claim?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkYCf4h5XgE

So blindly ethnocentric...

[Maru]

US is up there with Japan for countries I would not like to live in (obviously not counting war torn countries and the like).

It's nice for a holiday but I'm not living anywhere where, if you come down with a serious illness, you need to start a gofundme for a chance of getting treatment. **** that.

Well thankfully, most people/families are insured through employers and it's usually an 80/20 (80% coverage, 20% you pay), 90/10 plan... Most plans cover treatment and diagnostics 100%. The percentage is usually if you have to do inpatient/outpatient procedures, (edit) but in most cases it's a deductible. ERs are copays, so I've dropped stones that have cost $20,000K to only have a $300 copay (which is higher than average). (edit) Also the overall price is actually marked down... just because it's billed $20,000K, isn't the contracted rate. It's usually far less once Medicare/insurance contract rates kick in.

Usually the lifetime deductibles are like $1million, etc, but it varies widely. Also, the giant bills you see from hospitals are usually from people who have either maxed out or are uninsured or are in some crazy rare instance where their insurance company is a moron.

My mother has severe Dystonia and she's had two brain surgeries fully covered by Medicare which are entirely experimental. My whole family has had a lot of experimental research done because the form of it is so unusual. 100% of that research was covered by insurance. We wouldn't have the research capabilities we have if it weren't for private insurance. Not saying it doesn't happen where the insurance companies **** up, but from what I hear the NHS isn't a picnic either.

Anyway, I've never known anyone but myself who has opened a Gofundme, and it was for a dog I was nursing from being emaciated through a dog rescue I was with and who also needed diabetes testing. But Americans are very charitable... even those horrible Christian people and believe me the hospitals/medical center is floating in money. It's just that you hear the worst cases because that's all the media will cover... they'll never tell you how our system though makes a lot of things that don't happen in other places possible. It's just what it is.


Edit: Oh, as far as Japan, I'd agree (personally). I speak the language and I have had friends there for many years who we communicate daily with. It's not quite Western culture, and I don't really feel like doing English teaching for the rest of my life :laugh: ... . I was a member at a gaijin forum for the longest time so I knew a lot of expats and we talked about it when I wanted to go into Linguistics. It's got it's issues, but so does any country.

[DemolitionRed]

So blindly ethnocentric...

I can only assume you mean that in a negative way because it’s a word that’s meaning is inherently bad. Nice try!

I am only ethnocentric towards the American political system because Americas political system appears to be blind towards human rights violations. I’m ethnocentric about human rights in many countries around the world, aren’t you? I wouldn’t want to live in SA or other Arabic cultures where life is cheap or African countries that perform FFGM. So to correct your attempt to insult, I’ll make it clear that my ethnocentrism isn’t trivial and certainly isn't blind. Its not about culture or multiculturalism but about the wrongs of their healthcare system, their gun laws; their death sentences in certain states and about the great divide between real wealth and real poverty. And now with Trump, I'm ethnocentric about a president who appears to thrive on racial hatred.

[Ammi]

So blindly ethnocentric...

..to be fair though Maru, it’s Trump himself who has placed the definition on what is an awful country...I mean what he’s essentially saying is that if a country has problems then all of the people of the country ‘are a problem also’ and not people the USA would want or should have...so isn’t that the very definition of being ethnocentric in some kind of stance of superiority.../...so it’s obvious really that similar opinions will come back at him...well take a look at yourself and your own country, Donald../..type thing...I can understand that...hasn’t every country in the world got specific problems and issues, but we don’t define their whole people by that...he has though and so he’s the one that’s then opened his own people and country up for the same scrutiny ...Donald did that...

....anyways, he feels that Norway is ‘acceptable’ so therefore Norwegian people are welcome...maybe they should send him Anders Behring as one of his citizens to spend the rest of his days in a US prison...Anders Behring shot and killed over 70 people and Trump does nothing to restrict his own country’s gun laws so that things like that are less likely to happen and to help lessen deaths of his own people...and It would only be possible for Norway to send Anders anyway because they don’t practice the death penalty, which the US as a westernised country still do in some states, not very progressive.../...so I guess it could be said by Norway and Norwegians...why would we ever think of emigrating to a ****hole like the US...he represents his citizens very badly I’m afraid....

[DemolitionRed]

Well thankfully, most people/families are insured through employers and it's usually an 80/20 (80% coverage, 20% you pay), 90/10 plan... Most plans cover treatment and diagnostics 100%.

I don't know many Americans but the two I do know I consider my best friends. One of those friends couldn't return to America when she fell pregnant because nobody would insure her. The other ones sister got throat cancer after working on the 9/11 clear up operation. She'd paid insurance all her working life. She lives in a modern, fully paid for Manhattan apartment. When she fell ill, her medical records were scrutinized by her insurers before she was rejected. The reason: she'd had thrush in her mouth about ten years previous and hadn't told them. She was suddenly faced with inevitable death if she couldn't get treatment or the loss of everything she owned to pay privately. Fortunately for her the 9/11 trust stepped in. Fortunately she had a charity she could turn to but many don't.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Nobody is saying a lot of countries aren't **** holes or that America doesn't do good around the world, but when you consider the massive domestic issues making America one of the most violent, racist countries in the world, soon bereft of even the most fundamental health care, saturated with guns and continual mass shootings, living in a hazy cowboy fantasy, governed by a repressive religious minority, so oppressive it jails more of its own citizens than any other regime inthe world I thing its accurate to say... it's a ****hole.

what utter nonsense, the USA is the most sought after destination in the world, why id wager 95% of Tibb would jump at a free holiday there and half want to live there

:joker:

[Maru]

..to be fair though Maru, it’s Trump himself who has placed the definition on what is an awful country...I mean what he’s essentially saying is that if a country has problems then all of the people of the country ‘are a problem also’ and not people the USA would want or should have...so isn’t that the very definition of being ethnocentric in some kind of stance of superiority.../...so it’s obvious really that similar opinions will come back at him...well take a look at yourself and your own country, Donald../..type thing...I can understand that...hasn’t every country in the world got specific problems and issues, but we don’t define their whole people by that...he has though and so he’s the one that’s then opened his own people and country up for the same scrutiny ...Donald did that...

....anyways, he feels that Norway is ‘acceptable’ so therefore Norwegian people are welcome...maybe they should send him Anders Behring as one of his citizens to spend the rest of his days in a US prison...Anders Behring shot and killed over 70 people and Trump does nothing to restrict his own country’s gun laws so that things like that are less likely to happen and to help lessen deaths of his own people...and It would only be possible for Norway to send Anders anyway because they don’t practice the death penalty, which the US as a westernised country still do in some states, not very progressive.../...so I guess it could be said by Norway and Norwegians...why would we ever think of emigrating to a ****hole like the US...he represents his citizens very badly I’m afraid....

Yes, that's why I quoted the post :laugh:

[Northern Monkey]

We will have to agree to disagree. Whilst California and New York are great places for a short holiday, America is on my list of countries I would least like to live.

Why would anyone want to move to a country where you pay around $400 a month in medical insurance and if you do fall ill a claims assessor looks for every possible way to not pay your claim?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkYCf4h5XgE

And how long do you think the NHS is going to be viable?It’s unsustainable.
It’ll have died on its arse by the end of the century.It’s inevitable with an ever rising population.The whole model was designed for there to be less need for it over time not more.
There’s only so far you can raise taxes and throw money at it before it outgrows the ability to fund it.
Then we’ll all be on some kind of insurance based system.We’re just not there yet.

[DemolitionRed]

what utter nonsense, the USA is the most sought after destination in the world, why id wager 95% of Tibb would jump at a free holiday there and half want to live there

:joker:

A free holiday is something most people would jump at but a free holiday isn't living there is it?

As for wanting to live there, do you have any statistics for this bizarre claim ?

[Crimson Dynamo]

A free holiday is something most people would jump at but a free holiday isn't living there is it?

As for wanting to live there, do you have any statistics for this bizarre claim ?

are you familiar with the term "why id wager"?

and i doubt many, apart from the foolhardy, would jump at a free holiday to many 3 world African countries - if any

[user104658]

And how long do you think the NHS is going to be viable?It’s unsustainable.
It’ll have died on its arse by the end of the century.It’s inevitable with an ever rising population.The whole model was designed for there to be less need for it over time not more.
There’s only so far you can raise taxes and throw money at it before it outgrows the ability to fund it.
Then we’ll all be on some kind of insurance based system.We’re just not there yet.These are problems that could and should be tackled if there was any inclination to do so, though. The NHS could function perfectly well if it was well managed... There is no real government drive to do so. It would be funded perfectly well if it wasn't horrendously over-used because of people not understanding their own health or knowing how to properly care for themselves (e.g. running to the GP for every cough and cold, or mismanaging hydration with the flu and ending up in A&E, or calling ambulances / going to hospital for all sorts of minor injuries that could be patched up at home). But there's no real focus on improving that, either.

It is sort of a massive hulking beast that would do better if broken down further into smaller scale local (but cooperative) health services but, the fact remains, if it wasn't for the government quite clearly INTENDING to sell it off by making it seem unmanageable, it could still be a well oiled and exemplary health care system with a few tweaks.

The taxation thing is another issue of course. People don't seem to realise just how much is paid out in insurance based systems. If the government whacked 2% onto everyone's taxes and gave it all to a (well managed) NHS it would do wonders for the service but people would go nuts over it - apparently not realising that private insurance would cost most normal working people a LOT more than a 2% tax increase, and along with it, always the risk of it going wrong and ending up bankrupt or simply unable to pay for certain treatments :shrug:. These things do happen in the US. And there are far more examples of the poor, elderly and vulnerable falling through the cracks... Especially when it comes to things like mental health.

Its obviously incorrect to call the US a **** hole. It IS a great country with many great things going for it. But it's health care record, for a first world country, is pretty shocking and varies wildly from state to state in direct correlation with wealth. There are some states where infant mortality rates are nearly 1 in 100 which is as bad as some literally starving third world nations.

So yeah... If you're university educated, middle-earning-and-upward then the US can be a great place to live. My wife's uncle and his wife recently moved semi-permanently to Texas (plan to stay for 10 years then play it by ear) and they absolutely love it - but she's a renowned University lecturer with multiple PhD's and a published author and they bought a 5 bedroom house with several acres of land / a swimming pool, etc...

It's not quite the same story for another guy I know, who came over on a University exchange for a year when I was at Uni. Even though he IS a graduate - his life now basically involves plastering on a fake grin as a waiter, because he knows that if he doesn't get tipped well he can't pay his rent and will be on the street. And if he gets ill, he's ****ed.

Its a system that works well for some, at the expense of many others. And no, that's not uncommon in the modern world... It's basically how the entire global economy works... But supposedly the greatest country in the world failing to care for its own native-born citizens on something as basic as fundamental healthcare is a total shambles.

[user104658]

Other thing I would add - Trumps ideas about people from poorer countries are really quite inevitable based on a large part of American rhetoric.

As I've said... The US is, and certainly has been, a great country. It's also one that peddles (hard) the idea of patriotism; that if America is great, and you are American, then YOU must be great... So, some seriously "sh*t hole people" believe that they are great people, based on nothing more than coming from a great place.

What's the obvious flipside of this idea? .... If coming from a great country makes you a great person, then coming from a sh*tty country makes you a sh*tty person.

Obviously neither is even slightly true but US patriotism relies on the first part being bought into.

[DemolitionRed]

And how long do you think the NHS is going to be viable?It’s unsustainable.

Why do you think I fight the neoliberal model. We have been going down the American route for years now (including New Labour's term in office). Its only unstable because its been deliberately made unstable.

It’ll have died on its arse by the end of the century.


It will of died on its arse long before that.


It’s inevitable with an ever rising population.The whole model was designed for there to be less need for it over time not more.
There’s only so far you can raise taxes and throw money at it before it outgrows the ability to fund it.
Then we’ll all be on some kind of insurance based system.We’re just not there yet.

Tax doesn’t pay for government expenditure. Obviously, there’s a relationship between the two but its an indirect one. Popular tabloids has convinced the masses that tax comes before spending which means if we don’t pay enough tax we simply can’t spend the money… not true. It’s a misconception that make us wrongly believe the NHS isn’t affordable because there’s not enough tax! Its also a popular myth that government spending must be constrained when in fact all government services can be paid for and maintained without tax and without the risk of inflation so long as the government continues reclaiming tax from the economy.
This means, regardless of a growing population, the government can simply fund the NHS according to its needs so long as it corrects inflation.

£1.5 billion has left the NHS and gone into the pockets of just 15 private companies linked to 23 Tory MPs and Lords, who were all able to vote for the Health and Social Care Act: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/oct/03/healthcare-companies-links-tories-nhs-contracts

What this government is doing is betraying the interests of its people.

[Maru]

There are some states where infant mortality rates are nearly 1 in 100 which is as bad as some literally starving third world nations.

Where in the world did you hear that? O_o The one I found says X in 1000... not 1 in 100.

Infant mortality rate in the United States as of 2017, by state (deaths per 1,000 live births)*
https://www.statista.com/statistics/252064/us-infant-mortality-rate-by-ethnicity-2011/

Infant Mortality Rate (Deaths per 1,000 Live Births)
https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/infant-death-rate/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22 :%22asc%22%7D

There is some serious misinformation in this thread, but I can't really fault anyone here for picking up on what they hear because it sounds like you guys have to deal with some of the same filters we deal with daily in terms of outside information coming in. I would trust you guys for UK information before I would trust my own research just because I know how there's always a skew to things, so you really don't get an accurate picture but either someone's opinion or an informal narrative of things... when the Tohoku earthquake happened in Japan, English news was not just worthless but unreliable... I followed the news through Japanese media sources and that was pretty much the only way I knew whether or not my close friends there would be irradiated or not.

Also, for Texas, it is one of the most easiest places to live. You can literally buy so much land and housing for dirt cheap. You don't need 5 PhD's to live here, and in many cases not even a college education and medical is pretty affordable, even out of pocket. We don't have income tax either and our state keeps a budget and we have a strong economy to boot. When we had Hurricane Harvey, Houston was almost entirely inundated, but Texas picked up a lot of the bill to pay back FEMA (Federal disaster relief)...

The US is far from a sh1thole and our healthcare is some of the best in the world (I wouldn't say the best because I'm not an encyclopedia :laugh:). Keeping in mind too the private insurance we pay and for all the charities that funnel money through the system, that allows for much of the research that has done good in many countries across the world... that's not even up for debate. I mean Trump sucks and Congress sucks, but much of the country is doing much better economically speaking even without their intervention. (Edit) We've had to manage for decades now one way or another, so it's not like America isn't resilient.

[Tom4784]

Well thankfully, most people/families are insured through employers and it's usually an 80/20 (80% coverage, 20% you pay), 90/10 plan... Most plans cover treatment and diagnostics 100%. The percentage is usually if you have to do inpatient/outpatient procedures, (edit) but in most cases it's a deductible. ERs are copays, so I've dropped stones that have cost $20,000K to only have a $300 copay (which is higher than average). (edit) Also the overall price is actually marked down... just because it's billed $20,000K, isn't the contracted rate. It's usually far less once Medicare/insurance contract rates kick in.

Usually the lifetime deductibles are like $1million, etc, but it varies widely. Also, the giant bills you see from hospitals are usually from people who have either maxed out or are uninsured or are in some crazy rare instance where their insurance company is a moron.

My mother has severe Dystonia and she's had two brain surgeries fully covered by Medicare which are entirely experimental. My whole family has had a lot of experimental research done because the form of it is so unusual. 100% of that research was covered by insurance. We wouldn't have the research capabilities we have if it weren't for private insurance. Not saying it doesn't happen where the insurance companies **** up, but from what I hear the NHS isn't a picnic either.

Anyway, I've never known anyone but myself who has opened a Gofundme, and it was for a dog I was nursing from being emaciated through a dog rescue I was with and who also needed diabetes testing. But Americans are very charitable... even those horrible Christian people and believe me the hospitals/medical center is floating in money. It's just that you hear the worst cases because that's all the media will cover... they'll never tell you how our system though makes a lot of things that don't happen in other places possible. It's just what it is.


Edit: Oh, as far as Japan, I'd agree (personally). I speak the language and I have had friends there for many years who we communicate daily with. It's not quite Western culture, and I don't really feel like doing English teaching for the rest of my life :laugh: ... . I was a member at a gaijin forum for the longest time so I knew a lot of expats and we talked about it when I wanted to go into Linguistics. It's got it's issues, but so does any country.

The NHS isn't perfect but compared to the US system, it's pretty damn close. So many lives would be lost were it not for the NHS.

When it comes to Japan it's the high suicide rates, the backwards attitudes towards sexual crimes and the whole Karoshi thing that puts me off. I always wanted to go there as a tourist but living there? Nope.

[user104658]

Where in the world did you hear that? O_o The one I found says X in 1000... not 1 in 100.

Infant mortality rate in the United States as of 2017, by state (deaths per 1,000 live births)*
https://www.statista.com/statistics/252064/us-infant-mortality-rate-by-ethnicity-2011/

Infant Mortality Rate (Deaths per 1,000 Live Births)
https://www.kff.org/other/state-indicator/infant-death-rate/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22 :%22asc%22%7D

There is some serious misinformation in this thread.

Yes the figures I saw were also /1000 but the stats I saw earlier were quoting 9.x/1000 for a couple of states which is close enough to 10/1000... Which is 1 in 100? Those links quote 8.5 and 8.9 in 1000 for Alabama and Mississippi which is lower than what I saw before, but only marginally, and way below the wealthier US states and every other "1st world" country (which tend to sit 1 in 200). It is similar to a number of struggling African nations. That quite clearly demonstrates a quite serious wealth divide in the US as a whole and I'd be very interested to see the stats when it comes to low income vs. medium to high income in wealthier states, because I'd hypothesise based on this that there IS a significant difference. Those stats don't seem to exist, however, or at least aren't readily available.

I also quite clearly stated that it's a great place for those that are "doing OK"... I didn't say that you need 5 PhD's. Middle income and above - and especially those who are in any job that comes with built in insurance - it's a perfectly functional system. However, it's a system that leaves behind a large chunk of the population... But that's how capitalism works, I guess. But it's also a system that adds the stress and anxiety of worrying about funding (even when there turn out to be no problems securing it) at times when that's the last thing people should have to be thinking about.

Basically there is abundant economic dense that decent, well managed universal healthcare across the board results in better outcomes than insurance based models. But pharma and medical care are huge industries that a lot of people have an interest in so they're pushed, hard. I mean ffs... We're at the point where they have American parents wetting their pants over bloody CHICKEN POX with massive amounts of peer pressure to "buy" yet another vaccine. Chicken pox!

[user104658]

The NHS isn't perfect but compared to the US system, it's pretty damn close. So many lives would be lost were it not for the NHS.

When it comes to Japan it's the high suicide rates, the backwards attitudes towards sexual crimes and the whole Karoshi thing that puts me off. I always wanted to go there as a tourist but living there? Nope.Karoshi is seriously toxic and really quite dystopian... And I honestly think it's an indicator of where we're all headed - or at least where our governments would like us to be headed. Not succeeding in life? Not working hard enough! Work more hours!

But then look at the effects. High suicide rates, on top of deaths literally caused by pure exhaustion, and also sky high unemployment. I mean... It's hardly surprising that you'd end up with high unemployment when those who are employed are ready, willing... Even keen... To work 90 hour weeks.

[Maru]

Yes the figures I saw were also /1000 but the stats I saw earlier were quoting 9.x/1000 for a couple of states which is close enough to 10/1000... Which is 1 in 100? Those links quote 8.5 and 8.9 in 1000 for Alabama and Mississippi which is lower than what I saw before, but only marginally, and way below the wealthier US states and every other "1st world" country (which tend to sit 1 in 200). It is similar to a number of struggling African nations. That quite clearly demonstrates a quite serious wealth divide in the US as a whole and I'd be very interested to see the stats when it comes to low income vs. medium to high income in wealthier states, because I'd hypothesise based on this that there IS a significant difference. Those stats don't seem to exist, however, or at least aren't readily available.

I also quite clearly stated that it's a great place for those that are "doing OK"... I didn't say that you need 5 PhD's. Middle income and above - and especially those who are in any job that comes with built in insurance - it's a perfectly functional system. However, it's a system that leaves behind a large chunk of the population... But that's how capitalism works, I guess. But it's also a system that adds the stress and anxiety of worrying about funding (even when there turn out to be no problems securing it) at times when that's the last thing people should have to be thinking about.

Basically there is abundant economic dense that decent, well managed universal healthcare across the board results in better outcomes than insurance based models. But pharma and medical care are huge industries that a lot of people have an interest in so they're pushed, hard. I mean ffs... We're at the point where they have American parents wetting their pants over bloody CHICKEN POX with massive amounts of peer pressure to "buy" yet another vaccine. Chicken pox!

I was exaggerating with the 5 PhD's :laugh: Ok, I'll look into the infant mortality rates, because I'm curious what is causing the more negative numbers. My hope with medical reform is that they regulate it to stop the price gouging (for the uninsured). I don't mean price fixing. I just mean reasonable regulations like you can't charge %200,000 percent margin for something silly like an IV cable and adding billing regulations so that pricing is more transparent so that people can very easily price shop. (increasing competition)

[Maru]

The NHS isn't perfect but compared to the US system, it's pretty damn close. So many lives would be lost were it not for the NHS.

When it comes to Japan it's the high suicide rates, the backwards attitudes towards sexual crimes and the whole Karoshi thing that puts me off. I always wanted to go there as a tourist but living there? Nope.

Karoshi is seriously toxic and really quite dystopian... And I honestly think it's an indicator of where we're all headed - or at least where our governments would like us to be headed. Not succeeding in life? Not working hard enough! Work more hours!

But then look at the effects. High suicide rates, on top of deaths literally caused by pure exhaustion, and also sky high unemployment. I mean... It's hardly surprising that you'd end up with high unemployment when those who are employed are ready, willing... Even keen... To work 90 hour weeks.

Yeah Karoushi would be my other reason. My friend lucked out after a few years and got in with a good company, but before that he was paid peanuts with a smaller company on a salary working 80 hours of OT a week. I'd probably go on strike :laugh:

[Tom4784]

It's ridiculous, we should be moving towards encouraging people to work less and making it possible for them to do so, one of the scandinavian countries (can't remember which) has regulations that make it so that an employer can't ask someone to work more than five hours a day and that's great, I think. It's not likely to ever take effect anywhere else but it's the right direction to move in.

Our lives are too short to base them around work when most people do not like the work they do.