Ann v India poll

[chuff me dizzy]

On tonights show we see India trying to get a rise out of Ann ( getting a tad boring now :bored:) Ann being a great Lady she is told India in no uncertain terms that NHS cash should go on medical ,life saving things BEFORE it goes on peoples fancies ...... Who is in the right ?

[Marches]

Gender dysphoria isn’t just getting a vagina or a penis ‘because I fancy it’ sorta deal tho. Said medical condition is insane psychological torture for everyone with it and has contributed to very high sucide attempt rates among thes group of people. It’s quite hard to describe without going through it yourself, but it is an issue that plagues all the people suffering with it. I don’t think it’s like the no1 priority or anything I just believe it should be taken a little more seriously by the nhs

[waterhog]

great topic chuff and hard one to decide - mental torment trying to be something you are not and that is a health problem - and when you have a shortage - is it fare for there need to be cut - trying to be objective but have no solution.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Gender dysphoria isn’t just getting a vagina or a penis ‘because I fancy it’ sorta deal tho. Said medical condition is insane psychological torture for everyone with it and has contributed to very high sucide attempt rates among thes group of people. It’s quite hard to describe without going through it yourself, but it is an issue that plagues all the people suffering with it. I don’t think it’s like the no1 priority or anything I just believe it should be taken a little more seriously by the nhs

do you have any links to medical evidence that supports all your claims?

[Marches]

do you have any links to medical evidence that supports all your claims?

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Study conducted in California about transgender suicide rates, with 42% for trans women and 46% for trans men

There’s a bunch of other articles if you search gender dysphoria sucide rates which basically confirm those rates

Keep in mind in California the sucide rate averaged at around 9.4-11% over the years

[chuff me dizzy]

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Study conducted in California about transgender suicide rates, with 42% for trans women and 46% for trans men

There’s a bunch of other articles if you search gender dysphoria sucide rates which basically confirm those rates

Keep in mind in California the sucide rate averaged at around 9.4-11% over the years

People commit suicide over debt, losing their jobs and home, the gay " community" is not exclusive to suffering

[Christmas Dynasnow]

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

Study conducted in California about transgender suicide rates, with 42% for trans women and 46% for trans men

There’s a bunch of other articles if you search gender dysphoria sucide rates which basically confirm those rates

Keep in mind in California the sucide rate averaged at around 9.4-11% over the years

no i meant

"insane psychological torture" and "plagues all the people suffering with it"

?

[Christmas Dynasnow]

People commit suicide over debt, losing their jobs and home, the gay " community" is not exclusive to suffering

also most people commit suicide and dont leave a reason why

[chuff me dizzy]

no i meant

"insane psychological torture" and "plagues all the people suffering with it"

?

Oh please make it stop :facepalm:

[chuff me dizzy]

also most people commit suicide and dont leave a reason why

Exactly ! it is 2018 ,gays are fully accepted now, in fact its the norm, the bleating and poor mes are so a hundred years ago

[Marches]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/
Just look up literally any blog or YouTube video with someone detailing their experience of gender dysphoria

Also like you can’t really argue with a spike of suicide rates there’s obviously at least some issue at hand with these groups of people. I’m not saying the nhs should put all their money towards it I’m just saying atm access to said treatment isn’t the easiest thing in the world

[Greg!]

People commit suicide over debt, losing their jobs and home, the gay " community" is not exclusive to suffering

What a ridiculous comment. Obviously suicide is not something that ONLY happens to trans people but the rates are much higher.

[Cherry Christmas]

I don't understand why India brought up that topic when she agreed with Ann in the house, I think the prods were banking on Ann not recalling India's stance :laugh:

[chuff me dizzy]

I don't understand why India brought up that topic when she agreed with Ann in the house, I think the prods were banking on Ann not recalling India's stance :laugh:

India was pushing for a row,but then ended up looking silly

[Christmas Dynasnow]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/
Just look up literally any blog or YouTube video with someone detailing their experience of gender dysphoria

Also like you can’t really argue with a spike of suicide rates there’s obviously at least some issue at hand with these groups of people. I’m not saying the nhs should put all their money towards it I’m just saying atm access to said treatment isn’t the easiest thing in the world

"some issue at hand" is not really medical evidence

[Cherry Christmas]

India was pushing for a row,but then ended up looking silly

the silly cow agreed with Ann when she was in the house, talk about walking into a situation where you end up with even more egg on your face

[Greg!]

"some issue at hand" is not really medical evidence

It's literally the NHS website

[Christmas Dynasnow]

It's literally the NHS website

yes its a description of the disorder but its not a medical diagnosis, that is why it asks you to see your GP

:shrug:

[Marches]

Because there is very little information about gender dysphoria online because more often than not medical proffesionals dismiss it as not a medical illness, which I believe to be false from seeing the sucide rates/people recounting their experiences with the condition

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Because there is very little information about gender dysphoria online because more often than not medical proffesionals dismiss it as not a medical illness, which I believe to be false from seeing the sucide rates/people recounting their experiences with the condition

so you are saying your opinion is better than a qualified doctor?

because you "googled it"?

[Marches]

Gasp having a different opinion

It’s been fairly unexplored ever since it was added to the dsm and a lot of people dismiss it as like social justice warriory gender non conforming crap, mostly because certain people who call themselves trans are the sort of people who cross dress for attention. It’s cheapened it’s reputation but it’s a real condition that just hasn’t been classified as a medical illness yet, which a lot of people suffering from it have been trying to change

[Paula D]

As someone who's been waiting for an operation for 3 1/2 years now for something that affects me both physically and mentally I'd have to agree with Ann.

Priorities have to be set where's there's a limited amount of money.

[bots]

Do people think India is a well adjusted, stable person after her treatment?

[Marches]

Do people think India is a well adjusted, stable person after her treatment?

No, and India lost that debate

I just happen to agree with her on gender dysphoria

[bots]

No, and India lost that debate

I just happen to agree with her on gender dysphoria

so then the argument about suicide rates is irrelevant.

[chuff me dizzy]

Because there is very little information about gender dysphoria online because more often than not medical proffesionals dismiss it as not a medical illness, which I believe to be false from seeing the sucide rates/people recounting their experiences with the condition

Which it isn't

[chuff me dizzy]

As someone who's been waiting for an operation for 3 1/2 years now for something that affects me both physically and mentally I'd have to agree with Ann.

Priorities have to be set where's there's a limited amount of money.

Exactly Paula .. Medical ALWAYS should come first, anything else should be paid for yourself, . India bragged that £14,000 had been spent on her "chosen" op ,while people like you are sat waiting in pain or discomfort

[Marches]

so then the argument about suicide rates is irrelevant.

India is not all, and is a poor representative, of the trans community

[Marches]

No one is doubting anything, the debate is about priority in the NHS

maybe if you read the thread instead of jumping in on your little tykes bandwagon you would contribute to it?

Why do most of the people on this forum have to be so aggro when they post? Why would people feel incentified to contribute to it if they talk about something they care about and get shut down?

[bots]

India is not all, and is a poor representative, of the trans community

I've seen you post the % of suicide rates pre treatment, what were they post treatment? That is where any benefit is highlighted. Without both figures, the statistic is meaningless.

[chuff me dizzy]

Anyone who thinks the money spent on India was justified need to sit back and take stock .. Does she look like a woman ? No she doesn't .. Does she act like a woman ? No she doesn't .Is she happy? No she isn't ...So all that money that could have been spent on cancer treatment was wasted on her

[Christmas Lights]

Do people think India is a well adjusted, stable person after her treatment?

India is a very unstable argumentative person.
She still has issues she needs to sort out , whether that's because she transitioned so late in her life who knows.

But NHS is there for serious medical conditions and illnesses :nono: . It's not there exclusively for gender reasignments .

[chuff me dizzy]

India is a very unstable argumentative person.
She still has issues she needs to sort out , whether that's because she transitioned so late in her life who knows.

But NHS is there for serious medical conditions and illnesses :nono: . It's not there exclusively for gender reasignments .

If he had the op to feel better about himself he's wasted NHS money because Ive never seen a more bitter, miserable woman

[ChristmasNeeve]

Can people stick to the topic please....it's not eachother

[Greg!]

Niamh isn't transphobia against forum rules like other forms of prejudice?

[Cherry Christmas]

Niamh isn't transphobia against forum rules like other forms of prejudice?

you mean like ageism

[Greg!]

you mean like ageism

Yes but I'm not sure what that's got to do with this thread.

[Cherry Christmas]

Yes but I'm not sure what that's got to do with this thread.

You mentioned forum rules in general so it is very relevant

[chuff me dizzy]

you mean like ageism

Love it :joker: In going to get myself a "phobia" or an" ist" when i go Tesco on Saturday then i can demand special treatment

[ChristmasNeeve]

Niamh isn't transphobia against forum rules like other forms of prejudice?

This is a discussion about the NHS and whether or not people believe it should be paying for these operations, people are allowed have an opinion on that, I understand this is a sensitive subject but I'm not going to shut down peoples opinions on it unless they're being deliberately offensive

[Greg!]

You mentioned forum rules in general so it is very relevant

Okay. :)

[Greg!]

This is a discussion about the NHS and whether or not people believe it should be paying for these operations, people are allowed have an opinion on that, I understand this is a sensitive subject but I'm not going to shut down peoples opinions on it unless they're being deliberately offensive

I meant Chuff's misgendering of India

[Greg!]

And sorry but many of the posts are "deliberately offensive"

[chuff me dizzy]

This is a discussion about the NHS and whether or not people believe it should be paying for these operations, people are allowed have an opinion on that, I understand this is a sensitive subject but I'm not going to shut down peoples opinions on it unless they're being deliberately offensive

When we pay into the NHS every month I fell we have a right to discuss if its been used as it should be

[ChristmasNeeve]

I meant Chuff's misgendering of India

Well, the way I read Chuffs post, it seemed to me like she was differentiating between India pre and post op as she refers to her as a woman post op

[Greg!]

Well, the way I read Chuffs post, it seemed to me like she was differentiating between India pre and post op as she refers to her as a woman post op

That's really not the way most people would read it

[chuff me dizzy]

Well, the way I read Chuffs post, it seemed to me like she was differentiating between India pre and post op as she refers to her as a woman post op

Thats right I did, but don't let facts get in the way :joker: I used HE before the op ( When Jonathon wasn't happy ) and SHE after the op ( When India still wasn't happy)

[Christmas Lights]

I meant Chuff's misgendering of India

I think chuff meant pre- op as before India became a woman ,she was a HE .

[ChristmasNeeve]

That's really not the way most people would read it

How do you know how other people would read it Greg? It makes sense to read it that way for the point she was trying to make

[Greg!]

Thats right I did, but don't let facts get in the way :joker: I used HE before the op ( When Jonathon wasn't happy ) and SHE after the op ( When India still wasn't happy)

Not to be pedantic but you said "he's" wasted NHS money

[Greg!]

How do you know how other people would read it Greg? It makes sense to read it that way for the point she was trying to make

Not really

[Christmas Lights]

Not to be pedantic but you said "he's" wasted NHS money

You sound exactly like India now :rolleyes: .

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Not to be pedantic but you said "he's" wasted NHS money

he was a he before his operation?

[Greg!]

he was a he before his operation?

You mean "she" was. And actually, no, you are incorrect, she has always been a woman and it is very disrespectful to misgender a transgender person after their transition, even when talking about their pre-op past.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

You mean "she" was. And actually, no, you are incorrect, she has always been a woman and it is very disrespectful to misgender a transgender person after their transition, even when talking about their pre-op past.

No what I meant was chuff was talking about when she was a male newsreader and called herself a he which was before her operation when she turned into a woman

She called herself a he then too

[Greg!]

Just because she used to call herself a "he" before she came out and transitioned doesn't mean it's fine to call her a "he" now.

[Cherry Christmas]

You mean "she" was. And actually, no, you are incorrect, she has always been a woman and it is very disrespectful to misgender a transgender person after their transition, even when talking about their pre-op past.

that makes no sense, if you are speaking about their lives pre op you would refer to them as to whatever gender they were before the op? and how is that disrespectful

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Just because she used to call herself a "he" before she came out and transitioned doesn't mean it's fine to call her a "he" now.

of course not but when referring to him in his newsreading days as Jonathan Willoughby it would be silly to call him a her :shrug:

You cant now go back and say "oh do you remember that woman who read the news what was she called, oh yeah Jonathan Willoughby?

because it would be untrue

[Christmas Lights]

that makes no sense, if you are speaking about their lives pre op you would refer to them as to whatever gender they were before the op? and how is that disrespectful

That's what I was trying to say as well , nevermind things get taken the wrong way on here :rolleyes: .

[Greg!]

of course not but when referring to him in his newsreading days as Jonathan Willoughby it would be silly to call him a her :shrug:

You cant now go back and say "oh do you remember that woman who read the news what was she called, oh yeah Jonathan Willoughby?

because it would be untrue

It is not that hard to say "her in her news reading days" and say "she used to live as a man". Whatever I cba arguing about this anymore so bye

[chuff me dizzy]

Not to be pedantic but you said "he's" wasted NHS money

Stop nit picking fgs

[Cal.]

Exactly ! it is 2018 ,gays are fully accepted now, in fact its the norm, the bleating and poor mes are so a hundred years ago

And your evidence for this as a straight woman is ?

[Christmas Lights]

And your evidence for this as a straight woman is ?

Pretty sure we've gone off topic now :facepalm:

[Christmas Dynasnow]

:joker:

[chuff me dizzy]

Just because she used to call herself a "he" before she came out and transitioned doesn't mean it's fine to call her a "he" now.

She WAS a he before she had the op

[chuff me dizzy]

Can we get back to NHS funding these type of operations please

[Christmas Lights]

She WAS a he before she had the op

Here we go round the Mulberry bush

[Jamie89]

Gender reassignment is also medical (it's a treatment for gender dysphoria) so I can't really vote in the poll.

I think what a lot of people don't realise is that reassignment surgery isn't actually meant to be a cure for anything, it's done to reduce the dysphoria that a trans person feels to make their lives easier (it can be extremely debilitating for some people), but yeah it doesn't mean they are automatically 'cured'/happy/no longer experience problems. And as well as it being about how they view themselves it's also about how other people treat them, whether they 'pass' or not most people are respectful enough to treat them as the gender they present, which is why misgendering can cause problems for some of them and heighten their dysphoria.
And if you're looking for something physically diagnosible you're not going to find it, it's about the 'feeling' that trans people have. You're either going to have to accept that it exists without hard evidence, or I guess just assume that they're all making it up, up to you really, but knowing trans people, as well as considering what they go through not only in terms of actual treatment but the impact on their lives as well, I know where I stand on it.

[Paula D]

You mean "she" was. And actually, no, you are incorrect, she has always been a woman and it is very disrespectful to misgender a transgender person after their transition, even when talking about their pre-op past.

Sorry Greg but that is bs.

Someone pre-op is a man.

I listened to an interview with Caitlyn Jenner the other night and she referred to her former self as "he" so now you're just trying to stir trouble.

[Christmas Lights]

Can we get back to NHS funding these type of operations please

Like I said we've gone off topic :joker:

[Greg!]

She WAS a he before she had the op

And she is now a she and that is what SHE should be referred as

[Cal.]

Anyway, I think that life threatening procedures and treatments should be implemented before anything else. However, I do think gender reassignment should also be high up on the priority list as it's for a medical condition like anything else. But like people have been saying all series, you wouldn't have a cancer doctor/ward etc dealing with gender reassignment since that is a plastic surgeon's job I believe.

[bots]

And she is now a she and that is what SHE should be referred as

sorry, but you cant re-write the past

[Bluelight]

Exactly ! it is 2018 ,gays are fully accepted now, in fact its the norm, the bleating and poor mes are so a hundred years ago

Maybe gays are. But transsexuals are not gays. Gay and transsexual are not related. You have proved India’s point about how the grouping of LGBT confuses.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

Maybe gays are. But transsexuals are not gays. Gay and transsexual are not related. You have proved India’s point about how the grouping of LGBT confuses.

so we should stop saying LGBTQI?

[Cal.]

so we should stop saying LGBTQI?

That was India's point.

I disagree with her however as it's quite easy to distinguish between the L, G, B, T and Q.

You wouldn't call a gay man a lesbian.

[Christmas Lights]

That was India's point.

I disagree with her however as it's quite easy to distinguish between the L, G, B, T and Q.

You wouldn't call a gay man a lesbian.

What is this thread even about anymore :conf:

[Christmas Dynasnow]

That was India's point.

I disagree with her however as it's quite easy to distinguish between the L, G, B, T and Q.

You wouldn't call a gay man a lesbian.

Well i would not be surprised if a gay man-lesbian was a thing nowadays so i would be careful what you say there

[bots]

That was India's point.

I disagree with her however as it's quite easy to distinguish between the L, G, B, T and Q.

You wouldn't call a gay man a lesbian.

but you can call a lesbian a gay woman, how can this be seen as equality :fist:

[Jamie89]

Sorry Greg but that is bs.

Someone pre-op is a man.

I listened to an interview with Caitlyn Jenner the other night and she referred to her former self as "he" so now you're just trying to stir trouble.

Different people refer to themselves differently in this respect tbh. It's a complicated one, because their biological sex didn't match how they felt, some people will refer to the sex they were biologically and some will refer to the gender they felt they were. So it can really depend what aspect of themselves they're talking about, if it's something mental or physical for example.
Also some people refer to their biological sex in the past tense just to please others.
And some actually refer to their pre-op selves in the 3rd person although I think it's generally advised by medical professionals that they shouldn't.
Everyone's different basically, what Greg's saying isn't actually wrong in terms of how a trans person might feel, it can just be really complicated and one trans person can't really be used as a representative example because of those reasons ^ as well as gender dysphoria just being more/less extreme in different people. I think it's easy for those of us without issues like this to simplify it into biological terms only it's just a much more complex way of thinking about gender and sex for those that do.

[Bluelight]

If he had the op to feel better about himself he's wasted NHS money because Ive never seen a more bitter, miserable woman

“He”?

As someone with a transgender relative I’m shocked at the ignorance here. Trans people ARE in pain. Gender Dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, and it can kill people. I don’t think anyone would actually op for it on a shopping list of procedures, because being trans clearly still carries a major stigma. It’s a tough life. And I for one think india looks amazing!!!

[bots]

“He”?

As someone with a transgender relative I’m shocked at the ignorance here. Trans people ARE in pain. Gender Dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, and it can kill people. I don’t think anyone would actually op for it on a shopping list of procedures, because being trans clearly still carries a major stigma. It’s a tough life. And I for one think india looks amazing!!!

try reading the rest of the thread

[Christmas Dynasnow]

“He”?

As someone with a transgender relative I’m shocked at the ignorance here. Trans people ARE in pain. Gender Dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, and it can kill people. I don’t think anyone would actually op for it on a shopping list of procedures, because being trans clearly still carries a major stigma. It’s a tough life. And I for one think india looks amazing!!!

this is what happens when you dont read the thread

[Bluelight]

Anyway, I think that life threatening procedures and treatments should be implemented before anything else. However, I do think gender reassignment should also be high up on the priority list as it's for a medical condition like anything else. But like people have been saying all series, you wouldn't have a cancer doctor/ward etc dealing with gender reassignment since that is a plastic surgeon's job

If you have gender dysphoria it’s almost fifty/fifty that you might kill yourself to stop the torment. Official medical stats. That’s actually worse than some cancers, so the surgery is life saving. For the people who have it (and their families) it’s just as important as cancer surgery.

[Vicky.]

What a ridiculous comment. Obviously suicide is not something that ONLY happens to trans people but the rates are much higher.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882090/

Of the 298 transgender women, 41.5%of participants had 1 or more mental health or substance dependence diagnoses; 1 in 5 (20.1%) had 2 or more comorbid psychiatric diagnoses. Prevalence of specific disorders was as follows: lifetime and current major depressive episode, 35.4%and 14.7%, respectively; suicidality, 20.2%; generalized anxiety disorder, 7.9%; posttraumatic stress disorder, 9.8%; alcohol dependence, 11.2%; and nonalcohol psychoactive substance use dependence, 15.2%.
This is likely a large part of it. A lot of co-morbid mental health issues.

Also suicide rates are actually higher for trans people after transitioning (not right after, but I think it was 5/10 years later..will find the study in a bit) so it does not actually reduce the suicide rate at all. It does short term, proabbly the same was that someone with BDD having plastic surgery makes them feel better for a short period of time.

As for the question in the OP..I really do not know. I do agree life saving treatments should come first tbh but who decides whats life saving? I think its ridiculous that some kids with cancer have to be crowdfunding for treatments whilst boob jobs and such are given out though. I think there needs to be more studies done on transgender people and the medical outcomes of various treatments though, to understand it all better as it does not seem that surrect treatment regimes actually do work. Research into detransitioners was blocked recently...its odd.

[Bluelight]

On tonights show we see India trying to get a rise out of Ann ( getting a tad boring now :bored:) Ann being a great Lady she is told India in no uncertain terms that NHS cash should go on medical ,life saving things BEFORE it goes on peoples fancies ...... Who is in the right ?

The post title is flawed. Gender Dysphoria treatment is a medical condition. If not treated, it can kill. Death rates are high. And it’s not a “choice” as you imply by the word “fancy.” Read up on it, but not in the tabloid newspapers.

[Vicky.]

Gasp having a different opinion

It’s been fairly unexplored ever since it was added to the dsm and a lot of people dismiss it as like social justice warriory gender non conforming crap, mostly because certain people who call themselves trans are the sort of people who cross dress for attention. It’s cheapened it’s reputation but it’s a real condition that just hasn’t been classified as a medical illness yet, which a lot of people suffering from it have been trying to change

This is not helped by the definition of trans including crossdressers tbh

Needs to go back to being transsexual, not 'transgender' IMO. Transgender encompasses a ridiculous amount of people. I am classed as ****ing transgender when I do not actually have sex dysphoria.

[Bluelight]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882090/


This is likely a large part of it. A lot of co-morbid mental health issues.

Also suicide rates are actually higher for trans people after transitioning (not right after, but I think it was 5/10 years later..will find the study in a bit) so it does not actually reduce the suicide rate at all. It does short term, proabbly the same was that someone with BDD having plastic surgery makes them feel better for a short period of time.

As for the question in the OP..I really do not know. I do agree life saving treatments should come first tbh but who decides whats life saving? I think its ridiculous that some kids with cancer have to be crowdfunding for treatments whilst boob jobs and such are given out though. I think there needs to be more studies done on transgender people and the medical outcomes of various treatments though, to understand it all better as it does not seem that surrect treatment regimes actually do work. Research into detransitioners was blocked recently...its odd.

Those figures are based on research in the 50s. More than 90% of people who surgically transition are happy. Again, it’s medically accepted around the world as the right treatment route. Have you thought about this though: imagine transitioning and then still living in a world where people call you “he” and “him”, make fun of how you look, and don’t treat you with dignity. Do you think that might make someone depressed?
Personally, I think that reaction by OTHERS would wear me down - even though I personally had done everythjng I could to be happy. So, as one of the “others”, why can’t we just treat people with respect and stop denigrating them?

This article explains, with sources https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6160626

[Patricia4]

Ann is right

[Jamie89]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4882090/


This is likely a large part of it. A lot of co-morbid mental health issues.

Also suicide rates are actually higher for trans people after transitioning (not right after, but I think it was 5/10 years later..will find the study in a bit) so it does not actually reduce the suicide rate at all. It does short term, proabbly the same was that someone with BDD having plastic surgery makes them feel better for a short period of time.

As for the question in the OP..I really do not know. I do agree life saving treatments should come first tbh but who decides whats life saving? I think its ridiculous that some kids with cancer have to be crowdfunding for treatments whilst boob jobs and such are given out though. I think there needs to be more studies done on transgender people and the medical outcomes of various treatments though, to understand it all better as it does not seem that surrect treatment regimes actually do work. Research into detransitioners was blocked recently...its odd.

Detransitioning's an interesting one, I've looked into that too and it's hard to really find much on it, but from what I've seen there's actually a lot of people who detransition and then later transition back again... de-de-transitioning :laugh: (I say 'a lot' but the figures for trans people is small to start with never mind detransitioners.) But from individual accounts the reasons for detransitioning seem to be mainly because of difficulties in life after transitioning, relationships with loved ones breaking down, problems within careers, etc etc, rather than actually being because they are no longer trans or incorrectly diagnosed (although that could also be possible for some). So it's like weighing up the struggle of coping with gender dysphoria and presenting as their biological sex, with struggling post-op for whatever reason, but then like I say for a lot of them the dysphoria ends up increasing again after detransitioning and they try again, (and I wonder if these people are still included in figures of detransitioners). And perhaps a part of it could be down to some of them not being fully mentally prepared for such a change and they end up needing more time I don't know. Completely off topic sorry :laugh:

[Bluelight]

Detransitioning's an interesting one, I've looked into that too and it's hard to really find much on it, but from what I've seen there's actually a lot of people who detransition and then later transition back again... de-de-transitioning :laugh: (I say 'a lot' but the figures for trans people is small to start with never mind detransitioners.) But from individual accounts the reasons for detransitioning seem to be mainly because of difficulties in life after transitioning, relationships with loved ones breaking down, problems within careers, etc etc, rather than actually being because they are no longer trans or incorrectly diagnosed (although that could also be possible for some). So it's like weighing up the struggle of coping with gender dysphoria and presenting as their biological sex, with struggling post-op for whatever reason, but then like I say for a lot of them the dysphoria ends up increasing again after detransitioning and they try again, (and I wonder if these people are still included in figures of detransitioners). And perhaps a part of it could be down to some of them not being fully mentally prepared for such a change and they end up needing more time I don't know. Completely off topic sorry :laugh:

My advice: talk to someone who’s actually transgender/transsexual. There are lots of studies funded by religious, conservative or radical feminist groups that go on about detransitiing. Actually, it’s very uncommon. But it helps portray people who ate transgender as being simply confused, or mixed up. And puts a wuestion over whether funding surgery is worthwhile. You find what you look for on the internet.

Here’s a link. Sub heafing number 3 Regret is uncommon https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6160626

[Vicky.]

I don't call transwomen he or transmen she. But I do have issues occasionally (India was one of those ones actually) where my brain just cannot help seeing a male merson, and as such, I use he by mistake.

And yes, other peoples reactions to you could well make you feel suicidal I guess. But dismissing any other reason is a bit silly.

And its not research from the 50s at all. It specifically says where its from

Between 2012 and 2015, 300 young transgender women were enrolled in Project LifeSkills, an ongoing multisite trial in Chicago, Illinois (51%), and Boston, Massachusetts (49%), testing the efficacy of a culturally tailored, empowerment-based, and group-delivered HIV prevention intervention aimed at reducing youths’ risk for HIV acquisition and transmission.

I guess you didn't read it and just want to dismiss any possibility that there are other mental health issues going on at the same time in many many trans people, for some reason.

Much much more research needs to go into the whole thing. issue it, research is deemed transphobic. And asking questions is deemed transphobic. And any medical intervention besides surgery and hormones is deemed gatekeeping.

[Vicky.]

My advice: talk to someone who’s actually transgender/transsexual. There are lots of studies funded by religious, conservative or radical feminist groups that go on about detransitiing. Actually, it’s very uncommon. But it helps portray people who ate transgender as being simply confused, or mixed up. And puts a wuestion over whether funding surgery is worthwhile. You find what you look for on the internet.

Research into detransitioners is blocked for some reason

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/25/bath-spa-university-transgender-gender-reassignment-reversal-research

According to Caspian, the university said: “Engaging in a potentially politically incorrect piece of research carries a risk to the university. Attacks on social media may not be confined to the researcher, but may involve the university

Scared of the social media reaction, and the reaction of rabid transactivists.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/psychotherapist-gender-assignment-surgery-reverse-research-stop-trans-bath-spa-university-james-a7965281.html

Mr Caspian argued the research needed to be done as he had found growing numbers of young people who were regretting having surgery, and he said some were even “traumatised”.

His research proposal was influenced by a conversation with Dr Miroslav Djordjevic of the Belgrade Centre for Genital Reconstructive Surgery in 2014. Mr Djordjevic said he had carried out seven reversals that year, more than ever before.

Could it be that certain people just do not want to acknowledge that there are detransitioners and they are not as rare as unicorns like some would have you believe :think:

Surely ANY research into transgender stuff should be welcomed to understand the whole thing better

[chuff me dizzy]

Ann is right

Thank God for a voice of reason ,who answered the simple question above

[Jamie89]

My advice: talk to someone who’s actually transgender/transsexual. There are lots of studies funded by religious, conservative or radical feminist groups that go on about detransitiing. Actually, it’s very uncommon. But it helps portray people who ate transgender as being simply confused, or mixed up. And puts a wuestion over whether funding surgery is worthwhile. You find what you look for on the internet.

Here’s a link. Sub heafing number 3 Regret is uncommon https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6160626

I agree with what you're saying, that's what I mean about the figures for it being so small, I wasn't trying to make it sound like something common I just think detransitioning is interesting to try and understand - and I don't doubt a lot of information out there is agenda driven propaganda. A close friend of mine is a transsexual man and I feel like I have a good understanding of what he's been through and continues to go through (although we don't talk about it very often) so I know gender dysphoria isn't about simply being confused or anything like that. Thanks for the link I'll check it out.

[Bluelight]

They don’t “want”. They NEED. If this survery is not available, a high percentage of trans people kill themselves. Unless you - like Ann - believe that conversion therapy is an option, the only treatment is gender reassignment surgery. You deem to be labouring under the impression it’s a lifestyle choice?

[chuff me dizzy]

They don’t “want”. They NEED. If this survery is not available, a high percentage of trans people kill themselves. Unless you - like Ann - believe that conversion therapy is an option, the only treatment is gender reassignment surgery. You deem to be labouring under the impression it’s a lifestyle choice?

A lot of people kill themselves, it doesn't mean the NHS should panderer to their "wants"

[Bluelight]

I don't call transwomen he or transmen she. But I do have issues occasionally (India was one of those ones actually) where my brain just cannot help seeing a male merson, and as such, I use he by mistake.

And yes, other peoples reactions to you could well make you feel suicidal I guess. But dismissing any other reason is a bit silly.

And its not research from the 50s at all. It specifically says where its from



I guess you didn't read it and just want to dismiss any possibility that there are other mental health issues going on at the same time in many many trans people, for some reason.

Much much more research needs to go into the whole thing. issue it, research is deemed transphobic. And asking questions is deemed transphobic. And any medical intervention besides surgery and hormones is deemed gatekeeping.

You find what you seek on the internet, in terms of studies. We could play tennis all day. I’ll stick with what the accepted medical view is around the globe, from people who know a good study from a bad one. To be blunt. - it’s clear you do not have respect for transgender people, or take them seriously. So no point in exchanging huff and puff counter arguments.

[susie q]

The NHS has a limited budget, which means that sometimes tough decisions have to be made. Someone is always going to loose out. More money for the NHS isnt always option either, because that would mean paying more NI, tax etc. Speaking as someone who struggles to make ends meet, I would find this difficult, and wouldnt be happy to fund things that dont require treatment for medically recognised conditions. Im happy for transgender to undergo surgery to achieve there goal, but not at someone elses expense.
Perhaps there are other workable solutions out there that they shoould explore.

[chuff me dizzy]

The NHS has a limited budget, which means that sometimes tough decisions have to be made. Someone is always going to loose out. More money for the NHS isnt always option either, because that would mean paying more NI, tax etc. Speaking as someone who struggles to make ends meet, I would find this difficult, and wouldnt be happy to fund things that dont require treatment for medically recognised conditions. Im happy for transgender to undergo surgery to achieve there goal, but not at someone elses expense.
Perhaps there are other workable solutions out there that they shoould explore.

Ive no problem either with it, as long as they fund it themselves, why should people forfeit life saving operations for someones fancy? same with all plastic surgery without its after a crash or cancer etc, not their choice

[poppsywoppsy]

Research into detransitioners is blocked for some reason

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/sep/25/bath-spa-university-transgender-gender-reassignment-reversal-research



Scared of the social media reaction, and the reaction of rabid transactivists.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/psychotherapist-gender-assignment-surgery-reverse-research-stop-trans-bath-spa-university-james-a7965281.html



Could it be that certain people just do not want to acknowledge that there are detransitioners and they are not as rare as unicorns like some would have you believe :think:

Surely ANY research into transgender stuff should be welcomed to understand the whole thing better

I think it should be the same as IVF treatment and has to be paid for if there are no medical reasons.

India could well afford her costs but used NHS facilities anyway.

Surely medical needs should be addressed before sexual needs, if money is short isn't this something the LGBT could fund for their members (No pun intended) by starting a fund for those who need help.

By relying on a very stretched NHS service, would this be a self help idea to put forward which could benefit all.

[Bluelight]

The NHS has a limited budget, which means that sometimes tough decisions have to be made. Someone is always going to loose out. More money for the NHS isnt always option either, because that would mean paying more NI, tax etc. Speaking as someone who struggles to make ends meet, I would find this difficult, and wouldnt be happy to fund things that dont require treatment for medically recognised conditions. Im happy for transgender to undergo surgery to achieve there goal, but not at someone elses expense.
Perhaps there are other workable solutions out there that they shoould explore.

Be interesting to know your view if you had a son or daughter who was born with gender dysphoria. I guess then it would become very important. I don’t think we can accept that 50% of people with a particulat condition (whatever it is) will die - when a treatment is there. Only 1% of the world population are transgender. So in terms of funding, it’s tiny. How many people who have transitioned do you onow? Puts it in perspective.

[Vicky.]

You find what you seek on the internet, in terms of studies. We could play tennis all day. I’ll stick with what the accepted medical view is around the globe, from people who know a good study from a bad one. To be blunt. - it’s clear you do not have respect for transgender people, or take them seriously. So no point in exchanging huff and puff counter arguments.

You can think whatever you like. I have a transsexual woman in my family ffs. I just think there obviously needs to be a hell of a lot more research than there is, especially with so many kids these days identifying as trans.

To be clear, I am not saying SRS should not be an option. I am saying proper research needs to go into the whole thing. And yes, research needs to be done on the growing number of detransitioners too.

I also think for the good of transsexual people, they need to be known as transsexual, not transgender. As the transgender group encompasses so many different groups, fetishists and the likes. I don't see why transsexual people should be associated with crossdressers and drag queens and the likes, as they are nothing alike.

[chuff me dizzy]

Be interesting to know your view if you had a son or daughter who was born with gender dysphoria. I guess then it would become very important. I don’t think we can accept that 50% of people with a particulat condition (whatever it is) will die - when a treatment is there. Only 1% of the world population are transgender. So in terms of funding, it’s tiny. How many people who have transitioned do you onow? Puts it in perspective.

Its not a medical treatment

[Bluelight]

You can think whatever you like. I have a transsexual woman in my family ffs. I just think there obviously needs to be a hell of a lot more research than there is, especially with so many kids these days identifying as trans.

To be clear, I am not saying SRS should not be an option. I am saying proper research needs to go into the whole thing. And yes, research needs to be done on the growing number of detransitioners too.

I also think for the good of transsexual people, they need to be known as transsexual, not transgender. As the transgender group encompasses so many different groups, fetishists and the likes. I don't see why transsexual people should be associated with crossdressers and drag queens and the likes, as they are nothing alike.

Think you make some good points ❤️

[Bluelight]

Its not a medical treatment

What is it then? It’s listed as a medical condition by the World Health Organisation. You need to see pyscotherapists, doctors, surgeons...you go to hospital.
Tell me why gender dysphoria and the resulting treatment is not medical?

[chuff me dizzy]

I think it should be the same as IVF treatment and has to be paid for if there are no medical reasons.

India could well afford her costs but used NHS facilities anyway.

Surely medical needs should be addressed before sexual needs, if money is short isn't this something the LGBT could fund for their members (No pun intended) by starting a fund for those who need help.

By relying on a very stretched NHS service, would this be a self help idea to put forward which could benefit all.

Totatly agree with IVF should not be funded by the NHS and only plastic surgery after fires,crash .,cancer etc . no nose jobs ,eye lifts, boob reductions ...India stood in the garden talking about the surgeon book of fannys that he chose from ( what a load of BS ) and they fact she took over £14,000 for the NHS which could have saved lives ,when as you say he had a good job and could afford to pay

[Bluelight]

Totatly agree with IVF should not be funded by the NHS and only plastic surgery after fires,crash .,cancer etc . no nose jobs ,eye lifts, boob reductions ...India stood in the garden talking about the surgeon book of fannys that he chose from ( what a load of BS ) and they fact she took over £14,000 for the NHS which could have saved lives ,when as you say he had a good job and could afford to pay

“He”.

It did save India’s life.

[chuff me dizzy]

“He”.

It did save India’s life.

India was Jonathon before the op ( We paid for) and during looking at a book which had photos of 20,000 different Mucky Marys in it

[Vicky.]

Its not a medical treatment

It is a medical treatment, as its done to relieve dysphoria.

The 50% figure is a bit wrong though, 50% of transpeople will not actually kill themselves. They will attempt to though, which is obviously a problem. Its unclear whether this is because of the sex dysphoria or because of underlying mental health issues that seem extremely prevalent though.

People took the piss when I mentioned my family member before (in a serious debates thread) as it was a long introduction, so I will instead say cousin. She has had hormones for the past 10 years and has had a boob job (paid for herself, before you go off on one) but has had absolutely huge issues finding a suitable therapist to try and work through her issues as apparently they absolutely have to go down the affirmation route. She wants to come to terms with being male, and while she does want genital surgery, her partner says that...bluntly...she wants a penis to shag as she is not a lesbian. So my cousin is between a rock and a hard place, wanting full SRS but if she gets it she will be single. So has been trying to find a counsellor to help her try and get over the dysphoria. And found it ridiculously hard to do so. She does have one now though, but it took forever.

I do not see it the same as gay conversion therapy at all. Gay people are gay. Where male people are male. Female people are female. So basically...gay conversion therapy is trying to get someone to get over what they are. Where therapy to help trans people come to terms with their sex, it trying to help them to come to terms with what they are. So I guess this would be, when equated to gay people, the same as having a counselor to help you accept being gay. Obviously this kind of approach would not work for all trans people, maybe not even many...but the option should be there, and easy to find.

[Bluelight]

I think it should be the same as IVF treatment and has to be paid for if there are no medical reasons.

India could well afford her costs but used NHS facilities anyway.

Surely medical needs should be addressed before sexual needs, if money is short isn't this something the LGBT could fund for their members (No pun intended) by starting a fund for those who need help.

By relying on a very stretched NHS service, would this be a self help idea to put forward which could benefit all.

Few things. Transgender has nothing to do with sexuality, or needs. This was India’s point about being grouped with LGB.

LGBT is not a union. There is no HQ. You do not pay money in every month.

Honestly, I’m shocked at some of the level of understanding here.

[chuff me dizzy]

It is a medical treatment, as its done to relieve dysphoria.

The 50% figure is a bit wrong though, 50% of transpeople will not actually kill themselves. They will attempt to though, which is obviously a problem. Its unclear whether this is because of the sex dysphoria or because of underlying mental health issues that seem extremely prevalent though.

People took the piss when I mentioned my family member before (in a serious debates thread) as it was a long introduction, so I will instead say cousin. She has had hormones for the past 10 years and has had a boob job (paid for herself, before you go off on one) but has had absolutely huge issues finding a suitable therapist to try and work through her issues as apparently they absolutely have to go down the affirmation route. She wants to come to terms with being male, and while she does want genital surgery, her partner says that...bluntly...she wants a penis to shag as she is not a lesbian. So my cousin is between a rock and a hard place, wanting full SRS but if she gets it she will be single. So has been trying to find a counsellor to help her try and get over the dysphoria. And found it ridiculously hard to do so. She does have one now though, but it took forever.

I do not see it the same as gay conversion therapy at all. Gay people are gay. Where male people are male. Female people are female. So basically...gay conversion therapy is trying to get someone to get over what they are. Where therapy to help trans people come to terms with their sex, it trying to help them to get over what they are not. Obviously this kind of approach would not work for all trans people, maybe not even many...but the option should be there, and easy to find.

My point and the subject of this thread and poll is, people can have whatever op they want,as long as they pay for it

[Vicky.]

My point and the subject of this thread and poll is, people can have whatever op they want,as long as they pay for it

I get thats the point of the poll. Just felt I had to reply to that as its false that its not a medical treatment. It clearly is a medical treatment. Jurys out on if it should be actually paid for on the NHS. I don't know how I feel about that myself and do think that this whole thing is going to get worse as the NHS becomes more and more skint.

I think my opinion on this is probably that the therapies and hormones and such should be provided on the NHS. But actual SRS should be means tested. If its deemed to be absolutely necessary and the person cannot afford it then yes, NHS. But if they can afford to pay then thats how it should be.

That opens the door though to many many issues and a whole other debate though. Should everything on the NHS be means tested? Quite possibly, would ease the pressure on the NHS for sure. Either that, or the government can start funding the NHS properly...which is not likely to happen :laugh:

[Bluelight]

My point and the subject of this thread and poll is, people can have whatever op they want,as long as they pay for it

Including cancer and heart operations.

[chuff me dizzy]

Including cancer and heart operations.

Don't be ridiculous .... have you voted in the poll which is about sex change ops, nothing else

[Bluelight]

I get thats the point of the poll. Just felt I had to reply to that as its false that its not a medical treatment. It clearly is a medical treatment. Jurys out on if it should be actually paid for on the NHS. I don't know how I feel about that myself and do think that this whole thing is going to get worse as the NHS becomes more and more skint.

I think my opinion on this is probably that the therapies and hormones and such should be provided on the NHS. But actual SRS should be means tested. If its deemed to be absolutely necessary and the person cannot afford it then yes, NHS. But if they can afford to pay then thats how it should be.

That opens the door though to many many issues and a whole other debate though. Should everything on the NHS be means tested? Quite possibly, would ease the pressure on the NHS for sure. Either that, or the government can start funding the NHS properly...which is not likely to happen :laugh:

Good post - and very fair I think ❤️

[Bluelight]

Don't be ridiculous .... have you voted in the poll which is about sex change ops, nothing else

So you’re starting point is that dying from a heart condition is worse than dying from gender dysphoria? You are not treating it as the serious situation it is - but on a par with botox or a boob job. It’s not. As the NHS or any medical organisation will tell you.

[Bluelight]

Don't be ridiculous .... have you voted in the poll which is about sex change ops, nothing else

You love Ann. There is nothing more to say on this matter. And your ridiculous, offensively titled introduction to this thread. Gender Dysphoria IS just as “medical” as cancer or heart treatments, and is not a “fancy.” Don’t forget your copy of the Daily Mail.

[poppsywoppsy]

Few things. Transgender has nothing to do with sexuality, or needs. This was India’s point about being grouped with LGB.

LGBT is not a union. There is no HQ. You do not pay money in every month.

Honestly, I’m shocked at some of the level of understanding here.

I know it is not, but they do have influence enough to start a fund. But no, let it be a drain on the NHS, when other people have to pay for their procedures.


There is a woman who has crowd funded for her own medical fees for transitioning and other procedures.http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5339369/Transgender-woman-crowdfunds-transition-surgery.html

She has over £21,000 pounds already, now that's the way forward and I respect that woman for her not using the NHS but doing it herself.

So the moral is put your money where your mouth is and cough up.

What's not to like?

[susie q]

Be interesting to know your view if you had a son or daughter who was born with gender dysphoria. I guess then it would become very important. I don’t think we can accept that 50% of people with a particulat condition (whatever it is) will die - when a treatment is there. Only 1% of the world population are transgender. So in terms of funding, it’s tiny. How many people who have transitioned do you onow? Puts it in perspective.

My opinion wouldnt change, but as mother would support my child and do what I to help them achieve their goal, and would probably look into fund raising loans etc.

So does this mean that you would be happy to give up your sick childs place on the surgical waiting list, so that a transgender person could have there surgery instead? Like I said a limited budget sometimes means making harsh decisions.

[chuff me dizzy]

So you’re starting point is that dying from a heart condition is worse than dying from gender dysphoria? You are not treating it as the serious situation it is - but on a par with botox or a boob job. It’s not. As the NHS or any medical organisation will tell you.

How bloody dramatic ?

[jaxie]

Of course Ann is right that people who have life threatening illness should come first. While it seems to help in making those with this problem happy, gender reassignment is basically just cosmetic and doesn't in reality 'change sex' so is no more than a band aid. You will not die from gender dysphoria. If you commit suicide, people do that for a variety of reasons.

[chuff me dizzy]

My opinion wouldnt change, but as mother would support my child and do what I to help them achieve their goal, and would probably look into fund raising loans etc.

So does this mean that you would be happy to give up your sick childs place on the surgical waiting list, so that a transgender person could have there surgery instead? Like I said a limited budget sometimes means making harsh decisions.

Exactly my point ,its about priorities and a sex change is not a medical condition and certainly not a priority for NHS money ... If you want this type of op pay for it ....Simples

[chuff me dizzy]

Of course Ann is right that people who have life threatening illness should come first. While it seems to help in making those with this problem happy, gender reassignment is basically just cosmetic and doesn't in reality 'change sex' so is no more than a band aid. You will not die from gender dysphoria. If you commit suicide, people do that for a variety of reasons.

:clap1:

[susie q]

My opinion wouldnt change, but as mother would support my child and do what I to help them achieve their goal, and would probably look into fund raising loans etc.

So does this mean that you would be happy to give up your sick childs place on the surgical waiting list, so that a transgender person could have there surgery instead? Like I said a limited budget sometimes means making harsh decisions.

Forgot to add that I am an ex nurse, who once nursed (in her old age) the first ever British person to undergo transition surgery. It wasnt done on the NHS nor did she expect it. She was a lovely, caring, lively lady, who didnt expect everything to be handed to her on a plate, (ok that was probably a generational thing) she led an interesting life, and I was glad to have known her. I dont blame you for making genrelisations about people you dont know, its easy on line, its just not for me. Furthermore Im pretty sure that Im not the onlly one who finds it hard to make ends meet, without paying extra taxes. perhaps you dont work as yet.

[Christmas Dynasnow]

You love Ann. There is nothing more to say on this matter. And your ridiculous, offensively titled introduction to this thread. Gender Dysphoria IS just as “medical” as cancer or heart treatments, and is not a “fancy.” Don’t forget your copy of the Daily Mail.

Oh dear

[chuff me dizzy]

Oh dear

Someone who doesn't like the truth :joker:

[Bluelight]

Of course Ann is right that people who have life threatening illness should come first. While it seems to help in making those with this problem happy, gender reassignment is basically just cosmetic and doesn't in reality 'change sex' so is no more than a band aid. You will not die from gender dysphoria. If you commit suicide, people do that for a variety of reasons.

I’m not sure who to believe here abour Gender Dysphoria being a serious medical condition. Should I trust the NHS and World Health Organisation - or you two? Keyboard professors https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

[Christmas Dynasnow]

I’m not sure who to believe here abour Gender Dysphoria being a serious medical condition. Should I trust the NHS and World Health Organisation - or you two? Keyboard professors https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

where does it say "serious"?

[Cherry Christmas]

I’m not sure who to believe here abour Gender Dysphoria being a serious medical condition. Should I trust the NHS and World Health Organisation - or you two? Keyboard professors https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

There is a difference between being "seriously ill" and a condition to be taken seriously

[poppsywoppsy]

I’m not sure who to believe here abour Gender Dysphoria being a serious medical condition. Should I trust the NHS and World Health Organisation - or you two? Keyboard professors https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

It still will not kill you

There are mental health professionals for suicidal tendencies and the voluntary Samaritans.

There are other options out there.

[chuff me dizzy]

It still will not kill you

There are mental health professionals for suicidal tendencies and the voluntary Samaritans.

There are other options out there.

Lots of people commit suicide for lots of reasons, trans and gay people are just part of the numbers of them,they are not a special case

[Christmas Dynasnow]

and rarely does a suicide come with a detailed explanation as to why it happened