Drag queens and feminism - a contradiction

[Brillopad]

http://www.feministcurrent.com/2014/04/25/why-has-drag-escaped-critique-from-feminists-and-the-lgbtq-community/

Came across this and have to agree with much of it. Gay Drag queens such as ShaneJ claim to believe in feminism and to deplore ‘ists’ but aren’t their words a complete contradiction to their actions. It seems to me that parodying women the way they do speaks volumes about how they really see women.

[Smithy]

Just happened to “come across” an article from 2014 eh?

I’m kind of bored of the feminism debate, it’s like hitting your head against a brick wall because it’s about equality, nothing more or less and some people will never seem to understand that

[Brillopad]

Just happened to “come across” an article from 2014 eh?

I’m kind of bored of the feminism debate, it’s like hitting your head against a brick wall because it’s about equality, nothing more or less and some people will never seem to understand that

What do you understand about how women feel about equality if you support drag queens parodying women in the usual same-old sterotypical way that white privilidged males have got away with for centuries. Dressing up and prancing around makes it no less offensive.

[Greg!]

Feminism is about equality and fair treatment of the sexes. Including both sexes being allowed to dress however they want.

[Cherie]

Men know everything Brillo, and they know more about women then we do ourselves surely you have grasped that by now :laugh:

[Smithy]

“White privileged males” cahhh

So what about drag queens of colour?

Not to mention every drag queen you ever meet will be gay, I imagine that cancels out any white provilidge

[Greg!]

“White privileged males” cahhh

So what about drag queens of colour?

Not to mention every drag queen you ever meet will be gay, I imagine that cancels out any white provilidge

Exactly.

[Brillopad]

“White privileged males” cahhh

So what about drag queens of colour?

Not to mention every drag queen you ever meet will be gay, I imagine that cancels out any white provilidge

How exactly do drag queens of colour disprove that drag queens are mocking women. Just suggests a lot of hypocricy to me if both gay men and men of colour fail to see or give a damn about how they condone the blatant sexist stereotyping of women.

[Smithy]

Because they’re not mocking women?

If you’ve ever seen a drag queen or done some actual research most drag queens do it as homage to women, because they love women.

If they were mocking women then why aren’t they performing in men’s clubs with everyone laughing at them? HAHAHA look a man in a wig, he’s like a woman HAHAHA WOMEN HAHAHA

[Brillopad]

Men know everything Brillo, and they know more about women then we do ourselves surely you have grasped that by now :laugh:

Men always think they know better than women it seems - can’t see a lot has changed judging by MANY of the posts on here. :fist:

[jaxie]

Men know everything Brillo, and they know more about women then we do ourselves surely you have grasped that by now :laugh:

:clap1:

[jaxie]

Because they’re not mocking women?

If you’ve ever seen a drag queen or done some actual research most drag queens do it as homage to women, because they love women.

If they were mocking women then why aren’t they performing in men’s clubs with everyone laughing at them? HAHAHA look a man in a wig, he’s like a woman HAHAHA WOMEN HAHAHA

I'm a woman, I'm not feeling homage from some bloke dressed as a pantomime women.

[Brillopad]

I'm a woman, I'm not feeling homage from some bloke dressed as a pantomime women.

Here, here - are men telling us how we should feel now! No surprises there.

[jaxie]

And I'll tell you this, Bianca Del Rio has not done much for drag queens or LGBT by calling Ann Widdicombe a c.u.n.t. in the clip that was posted on the CBB forum. I've always been fairly open and live and let live about people and preferences but the way people have been acting over Ann and the narrow minded hysteria over her opinions has shocked me. As a community you ask for acceptance but that road goes both ways dear.

[Livia]

As soon as feminism is mentioned, in come the males, telling us what feminism is. Feminism isn't men posting on the subject, quite dismissively. That may be news to some men.

[Brillopad]

As soon as feminism is mentioned, in come the males, telling us what feminism is. Feminism isn't men posting on the subject, quite dismissively. That may be news to some men.

Very true.

[Greg!]

How dare "the males" have an opinion on feminism which is supposed to mean equality for all genders. A disgrace!

[Shaun]

As soon as feminism is mentioned, in come the males, telling us what feminism is. Feminism isn't men posting on the subject, quite dismissively. That may be news to some men.

I get the feeling if a woman had won and spent all series telling the men to shut up and listen rather than speak you'd be reeling and whining that feminism isn't misandry, so I'm not entirely sure what it is exactly you want.

[Cherie]

How dare "the males" have an opinion on feminism which is supposed to mean equality for all genders. A disgrace!

Of course males can have an opinion, but in thinking theirs is the only one that matters, therein lies the problem

[Jamie89]

Drag isn't about parodying women, it's about parodying and exploring gender stereotypes/social constructs. And it works both ways, drag queens and drag kings.

[Livia]

How dare "the males" have an opinion on feminism which is supposed to mean equality for all genders. A disgrace!

And then they get all hissy and talk about "equality", like it's something men haven't experienced! It's hilarious!

You can have an opinion. But you can't tell women what our opinion ought to be.

[jaxie]

How dare "the males" have an opinion on feminism which is supposed to mean equality for all genders. A disgrace!

Agreed. Need to get off the telling women what to do perch.

[lewis111]

Courntey is clearly a feminist and the fact she wears female clothes doesn't change that
Ann is more difficult to define as she believes that men and women should be equal, but also believes the already are so I doubt she would class herself as a feminist

[Marsh.]

Men always think they know better than women it seems - can’t see a lot has changed judging by MANY of the posts on here. :fist:
When you so clearly misunderstand what feminism is are you surprised?

[lewis111]

And then they get all hissy and talk about "equality", like it's something men haven't experienced! It's hilarious!

You can have an opinion. But you can't tell women what our opinion ought to be.

No one is telling you how you have to feel? Men can have opinions on what is and isn't feminism too?

[Greg!]

And then they get all hissy and talk about "equality", like it's something men haven't experienced! It's hilarious!

You can have an opinion. But you can't tell women what our opinion ought to be.

As a gay male I have indeed experienced inequality. But then it's not a competition, is it?

Where on earth have I "told women what their opinion ought to be."

[Jack_]

You know what I'm looking forward to? Pointing out to the 'mansplaining' complainers today (who, to be fair, do have a point to a certain extent - I'm aware of the irony here btw!) every instance in future in which they pass judgement and comment on an instance of social exclusion or discrimination that they would have no experience of. Because it'll definitely happen.

[Livia]

I get the feeling if a woman had won and spent all series telling the men to shut up and listen rather than speak you'd be reeling and whining that feminism isn't misandry, so I'm not entirely sure what it is exactly you want.

Shaun, I don't reel and whine. No need for that.

I am a feminist and I have a little fight against inequality and discrimination most day of my life. I don't need someone with a penis to tell me what that means.

The whole of CBB was really good, they came to some kind of respectful peace between then, while still knowing that they aren't on the same page. I loved Courtney, even though I didn't always agree, I loved Ann, even though I didn't always agree.

But the crap I've seen on this forum beggars belief, and I am tired of men on here mansplaining to females what feminism is and holding up a drag queen and telling us, look! A feminist!

[lewis111]

So, Livia, do you believe that Courtney/Shane J isn't a feminist? (Just curious)

[Livia]

As a gay male I have indeed experienced inequality. But then it's not a competition, is it?

Where on earth have I "told women what their opinion ought to be."

I'm Jewish, I've experienced all kinds of crap. But that's not what we're talking about here, is it. Like you say, it's not a competition.

[Brillopad]

How dare "the males" have an opinion on feminism which is supposed to mean equality for all genders. A disgrace!

They can have an opinion on feminism but to think their opinion can be better informed than actual women who have experienced sexism is a disgrace.

[lewis111]

They can have an opinion on feminism but to think their opinion can be better informed than actual women who have experienced sexism is a disgrace.

Saying this is true, what about all the members claiming gays don't face inequality anymore in 2018? Isn't that just as bad or even worse

[Withano]

http://www.feministcurrent.com/2014/04/25/why-has-drag-escaped-critique-from-feminists-and-the-lgbtq-community/

Came across this and have to agree with much of it. Gay Drag queens such as ShaneJ claim to believe in feminism and to deplore ‘ists’ but aren’t their words a complete contradiction to their actions. It seems to me that parodying women the way they do speaks volumes about how they really see women.

Arent you anti-abortion? Who are you (in all seriousness) to comment on feminism.

[Greg!]

They can have an opinion on feminism but to think their opinion can be better informed than actual women who have experienced sexism is a disgrace.

Ok but where has anyone said that

[Withano]

As soon as feminism is mentioned, in come the males,

Rightly so too. You think men cant be feminists?

[jaxie]

Shaun, I don't reel and whine. No need for that.

I am a feminist and I have a little fight against inequality and discrimination most day of my life. I don't need someone with a penis to tell me what that means.

The whole of CBB was really good, they came to some kind of respectful peace between then, while still knowing that they aren't on the same page. I loved Courtney, even though I didn't always agree, I loved Ann, even though I didn't always agree.

But the crap I've seen on this forum beggars belief, and I am tired of men on here mansplaining to females what feminism is and holding up a drag queen and telling us, look! A feminist!

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

[Livia]

Rightly so too. You think men cant be feminists?

I think you can. But suddenly you have to have a penis to be an expert? I can be passionate about all kinds of rights without them applying to me. I'm not so keen to tell others how they should think and feel. And it's getting a little bit like that...

[jaxie]

Arent you anti-abortion? Who are you (in all seriousness) to comment on feminism.

Who are you? :shrug:

[Livia]

Arent you anti-abortion? Who are you (in all seriousness) to comment on feminism.

I rest my case.

Withano telling a woman who is allowed to be a feminist, and what you must believe if you are.

[Greg!]

Who are you? :shrug:

An icon!

[Livia]

Who are you? :shrug:

He's a man, with all the rights and entitlements that brings.

[Withano]

I rest my case.

Withano telling a woman who is allowed to be a feminist, and what you must believe if you are.

Anyone is allowed to be a feminist... someone against their rights isnt though imo.

[jaxie]

I rest my case.

Withano telling a woman who is allowed to be a feminist, and what you must believe if you are.

:clap1: I'm going to get sore hands clapping you today Livia. You are on fire!

[Greg!]

I rest my case.

Withano telling a woman who is allowed to be a feminist, and what you must believe if you are.

As a mere man I won't give my opinion on this, but out of interest Livia, do you think someone can really be a feminist if they don't support a woman's right to choose?

[Withano]

As a mere man I won't give my opinion on this, but out of interest Livia, do you think someone can really be a feminist if they don't support a woman's right to choose?

:joker: thanks for pointing that out. Its absurd.

[Brillopad]

When you so clearly misunderstand what feminism is are you surprised?

As a woman I misunderstand but as a man you understand - get it now.

[Brillopad]

:clap1: I'm going to get sore hands clapping you today Livia. You are on fire!

Big claps from me too.

[Tom4784]

I think it's silly to take the act of drag as some sort of attack against women, I think a lot of gay/bi men tend to empathise and fiercely support feminism because they understand what it's like to be discriminated against, it's not the same kind of discrimination but there's an overlap in understanding there. I think it's stupid to demonise allies or pretend that their opinion is somehow worth less, it goes against the whole idea of feminism to think so, in fact.

The article is quite dumb simply because the comparison of blackface and drag is just dumb in general and shows a lack of understanding of what Drag is.

I do find it hilarious though, Brillo, that you, in all your hatred towards PC culture, has linked and is arguing for an article written by hardcore PC person that is looking for reasons to be offended. The irony is beautiful.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm a feminist because I believe in gender equality. My husband is a feminist because he believes in gender equality. That means we both recognize male inequality as well as female inequality. It has to work both ways.

[Brillopad]

Arent you anti-abortion? Who are you (in all seriousness) to comment on feminism.

I’m not anti abortion - never have been so don’t start making things up. I will put you on ignore now as I won’t rise to your tactics today.

[Tom4784]

As a mere man I won't give my opinion on this, but out of interest Livia, do you think someone can really be a feminist if they don't support a woman's right to choose?

That's true, it's pretty much impossible to find a way for a pro lifer to also be a feminist without having to admit to having hypocritical views on the issue. Feminism is about equality and women's rights, Pro life is about taking a woman's right to choose away.

You can't really reconcile those opposing view points.

[Vicky.]

I would say Shane is a feminist ally indeed. But drag is a bit...dodgy. Not so much in Shanes style (to be honest I had never seen drag queens who try to look like actual women) but all of the drag round here is basically getting dressed up as a pantomime dame and taking the piss out of women. I don't personally find it offensive, but I can see why some others do.

[Brillopad]

I think it's silly to take the act of drag as some sort of attack against women, I think a lot of gay/bi men tend to empathise and fiercely support feminism because they understand what it's like to be discriminated against, it's not the same kind of discrimination but there's an overlap in understanding there. I think it's stupid to demonise allies or pretend that their opinion is somehow worth less, it goes against the whole idea of feminism to think so, in fact.

The article is quite dumb simply because the comparison of blackface and drag is just dumb in general and shows a lack of understanding of what Drag is.

I do find it hilarious though, Brillo, that you, in all your hatred towards PC culture, has linked and is arguing for an article written by hardcore PC person that is looking for reasons to be offended. The irony is beautiful.

Hatred is your word not mine. You can label me all you like trying to make a point but it isn’t so because you say so. It is merely your biased opinion. Enjoy.

[Vicky.]

As a mere man I won't give my opinion on this, but out of interest Livia, do you think someone can really be a feminist if they don't support a woman's right to choose?

I don't think someone can truly be a feminist if they do not support a womans ownership over her own body. its not so much the 'choose' part, though I get that this is semantics really. I feel modern day feminism has been a bit..bastardized into 'any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice, as a woman chose it!' when to be honest I do not subscribe to this new notion of 'sex positive liberal feminism'. It seems to me that liberal feminism is mainly about making men happy. Obviously making men happy is not a bad thing, but its not what feminism should be about for me and honestly, near all lib fems I know spend their time going on about how prostitution is such an empowering job, and stuff like that :umm2:

[Vicky.]

Also as a side note, I ****ing love Meghan Murphy.

Why is it understood that the appropriation of a marginalized ethnicity, race or culture is facilitated by white privilege and that it’s offensive, but not that the same arguments could be applied to a group of men (who benefit from male privilege) who appropriate femininity as a form of entertainment?

And this does give me food for thought if I am honest.

As I said, I am not personally offended by drag (possibly as I spend so much time on the gay scene so see it a LOT) but I can definitely see why others may be. And yes, I can understand the blackface arguments also in a way

[Tom4784]

Hatred is your word not mine. You can label me all you like trying to make a point but it isn’t so because you say so. It is merely your biased opinion. Enjoy.

....I didn't mention anything about hatred nor did I label you at any point in that post?

[jaxie]

I don't think someone can truly be a feminist if they do not support a womans ownership over her own body. its not so much the 'choose' part, though I get that this is semantics really. I feel modern day feminism has been a bit..bastardized into 'any choice a woman makes is a feminist choice, as a woman chose it!' when to be honest I do not subscribe to this new notion of 'sex positive liberal feminism'. It seems to me that liberal feminism is mainly about making men happy. Obviously making men happy is not a bad thing, but its not what feminism should be about for me and honestly, near all lib fems I know spend their time going on about how prostitution is such an empowering job, and stuff like that :umm2:

I agree with you about a woman's ownership over her body and her right to choose but I will say I can also see the view that the child is alive and the other side of the coin. I've been pregnant and felt that life moving in my body. Personally I could never have an abortion.

Also we have lots of contraceptive options nowadays and I think that should be encouraged more.

[Crimson Dynamo]

In a future war between the gays and the feminists I will side with the women

Essentially they have the numbers and will wipe the gays out in minutes

then the men can make peace with the woman and we can live in harmony, but keeping an eye on them and their warring ways

:suspect:

[Vicky.]

I agree with you about a woman's ownership over her body and her right to choose but I will say I can also see the view that the child is alive and the other side of the coin. I've been pregnant and felt that life moving in my body. Personally I could never have an abortion.

Also we have lots of contraceptive options nowadays and I think that should be encouraged more.

Oh I can definitely see that view, don't get me wrong. I had an abortion when I was much much younger and I know I could not bring myself to do it now that I have actually gone through pregnancies and had children. I did used to see it as a bunch of cells, and tbh at the stage I had one it WAS just a bunch of cells, certainly not a baby. But I just cannot equate being 'pro-life' with feminism. It may be possible to be against abortion (for everyone, not just for yourself) and be a feminist, but I do not see how.

[Withano]

I’m not anti abortion - never have been so don’t start making things up. I will put you on ignore now as I won’t rise to your tactics today.

Just looked, not anti-abortion, just very open to lowering the cutoff point an abortion can be had. Super feminismy, tell us more.

[bots]

In simplistic terms a man can be a feminist, but only at a superficial, supportive level. So being blunt, Courtney's support of feminism is superficial, because by definition, he can't be anything more

[Vicky.]

Just looked, not anti-abortion, just very open to lowering the cutoff point an abortion can be had. Super feminismy, tell us more.

Its a hard balancing act though. I am pro-choice but at the stage where a baby could survive outside of the womb I do think the cutoff point should be before that. You seem to think not? Given this post? When do you think it should be? I have seen some feminists say the only acceptable feminist opinion on this is that abortion should be available right up to term, which I absolutely cannot agree with no matter how 'pro-woman' I am.

[Withano]

Its a hard balancing act though. I am pro-choice but at the stage where a baby could survive outside of the womb I do think the cutoff point should be before that. You seem to think not? Given this post? When do you think it should be? I have seen some feminists say the only acceptable feminist opinion on this is that abortion should be available right up to term, which I absolutely cannot agree with no matter how 'pro-woman' I am.

Its really not up to me is where i stand. This was discussed in detail before, i cant go through it all right now.

I consider myself a feminist, and Shane J quite obviously is one too. I just cant have a person who wants to limit women's rights to dictate what does, and what doesnt constitute as feminism. Especially with an article like that as a backup. Its all just absurd.

[Brillopad]

Just looked, not anti-abortion, just very open to lowering the cutoff point an abortion can be had. Super feminismy, tell us more.

Most people believe in a cut-off point - don’t try to backtrack now with your false allegations.

Btw I only unblocked you for this post because I wanted to see your justification for calling me an anti-abortionist. None then, as expected, just a weak attempted dress-up for jumping to conclusions. Back now.

[Vicky.]

Its really not up to me is where i stand. This was discussed in detail before, i cant go through it all right now.

I consider myself a feminist, and Shane J quite obviously is one too. I just cant have a person who wants to limit women's rights to dictate what does, and what doesnt constitute as feminism. Especially with an article like that as a backup. Its all just absurd.

OK. Just your post came across as very snipey, and for seemingly no reason. Surely near all people believe there should be a cut off point somewhere for stuff like that. Not believing in abortion fullstop is very very different (and quite evil, if I am honest, extremely misogynistic either way) to thinking the cutoff age should be lowered I think.

[Brillopad]

You know what I'm looking forward to? Pointing out to the 'mansplaining' complainers today (who, to be fair, do have a point to a certain extent - I'm aware of the irony here btw!) every instance in future in which they pass judgement and comment on an instance of social exclusion or discrimination that they would have no experience of. Because it'll definitely happen.

At least you are honest Jack.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Shane put up with Andrews woman hating becuase basically he wanted to suck his cock

he is a disgusting example of what women have to put up with

:bored:

[Smithy]

As soon as feminism is mentioned, in come the males, telling us what feminism is. Feminism isn't men posting on the subject, quite dismissively. That may be news to some men.

Please, go ahead and tell me what feminism is then, because according to you the dictionary definition isn’t quite correct