View Full Version : What does feminism mean to you?
My addition to Vicky & Ammi's wonderful selection(s). :love:
uL-LstUyl7E
when a man can
take a stand
and wash his hands
of his scams
and watch his woman
stand unafraid
aid her in her fight
to get paid
help her get her
medicines made
let her step on out
of the shade
and i will call him
super solid
and i will call him
super solid
it takes a strongman
to stand by a strong woman
it takes a strongman
yes it does
it takes a strongman
to stand by a strong woman
it takes a strongman
yes it does
if love sex
is the soul vexed
is the earth next
we need respect
can we love outside
of the clan
where's the sister
in brotherman
back to back
divided we stand
can we put some love
in the land?
i will call him supersolid
i will call him supersolid
it takes a strongman
to stand by a strong woman
it takes a strong man
yes it does
it takes a strongman
to stand by a strong woman
it takes a strongman
yes it does
conquering, stealing
wheeling and dealing
tell me is this planet
healing?
conquering, stealing
wheeling and dealing
tell me is this planet
healing?
when a man knows
where he came from
he can't tell me
i am shameful
and i will call him
supersolid
i will call him
supersolid
it takes a strongman
to stand by a strong woman
it takes a strongman
to stand by a strong woman
it takes a strongman
it takes a strongman
he can stop trying
to get even
he will know he's
here for a reason
to stand beside
his woman in peace
she's got the way
to release him
..that’s the thing though, Vicky...in thinking about and discussing feminism so much as many of us have in the last few days...my thoughts are of one poem and yours are of another...and they’re both so contrasting in ‘vibe’...one a celebration, and the other obviously much less celebrating...which brings me and my thoughts right back to what TS has been saying and how he feels...of who sets the agenda of feminism, then...because females as a collective and the thoughts and opinions of females etc, stray off in different directions of what they feel will progress to a common goal of equality...obviously because within being women, we’re all individuals as well...and if men have been discounted to more being a supporting role, then surely, that would discount and deprive of, any potential or possible ‘lead male character parts’, that may make a big and positive difference in the progress of......?...
...anyways, obviously I hate to be always saying...yeah, I agree with you TS..because obviously he’s a man and knows nothing..but yeah, I do find I lean his way so much with this and the best progression would feel that ‘regardless of gender’ and not to exclude...it’s more about individuals and including all in any capacity of their strengths, to hope for the progression we all hope for and are all in the same page with, as it were...
..that’s the thing though, Vicky...in thinking about and discussing feminism so much as many of us have in the last few days...my thoughts are of one poem and yours are of another...and they’re both so contrasting in ‘vibe’...one a celebration, and the other obviously much less celebrating...which brings me and my thoughts right back to what TS has been saying and how he feels...of who sets the agenda of feminism, then...because females as a collective and the thoughts and opinions of females etc, stray off in different directions of what they feel will progress to a common goal of equality...obviously because within being women, we’re all individuals as well...and if men have been discounted to more being a supporting role, then surely, that would discount and deprive of, any potential or possible ‘lead male character parts’, that may make a big and positive difference in the progress of......?...
...anyways, obviously I hate to be always saying...yeah, I agree with you TS..because obviously he’s a man and knows nothing..but yeah, I do find I lean his way so much with this and the best progression would feel that ‘regardless of gender’ and not to exclude...it’s more about individuals and including all in any capacity of their strengths, to hope for the progression we all hope for and are all in the same page with, as it were...
This is a self-amusing aside, but I was actually going to post the Strongman video on TS' wall a week or so back. And then forgot. Starting to think my subconscious knows some things I don't when I choose songs for users on here. Though I think it might've had something to do with a superman avatar he had a few years back(?)... my creative brain tends to remember some things my logical brain sometimes forgets to recall
And no, he don't know squat, that's why for me he'll always be the Dale Gribble of TiBB :laugh: I can just see him looking up everything we say and putting it all together... getting it all figured out...
Vicky.
06-02-2018, 06:18 AM
I don't really think there is an agenda as such tbh. Many people do feminism in their own way. Have their own priorities and such. My point about women setting the agenda..was not really saying 'oh all women should agree on this and do this' but more..women should lead the discussion. Like, I don't appreciate men telling me something I experienced was not sexist, unless it was an incident actually involving them or they were there to see it and give their opinion. If that makes sense? It just seems a lot of men are very much like 'oh feminism is not needed in the West, you all just want to be better than us, go focus on female genital mutliation in third world cointries instead' and such which is not helpful at all, to anyone or anything. I'm not sure I am explaining myself properly here as I have not slept yet..but as usual it makes sense in my head, just probably does not come out right.
What feminism means to me..as I said earlier
Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women. So..anything goes, as long as the desired result is the same, in short :p
I don't really think there is an agenda as such tbh. Many people do feminism in their own way. Have their own priorities and such. My point about women setting the agenda..was not really saying 'oh all women should agree on this and do this' but more..women should lead the discussion. Like, I don't appreciate men telling me something I experienced was not sexist, unless it was an incident actually involving them or they were there to see it and give their opinion. If that makes sense? It just seems a lot of men are very much like 'oh feminism is not needed in the West, you all just want to be better than us, go focus on female genital mutliation in third world cointries instead' and such which is not helpful at all, to anyone or anything. I'm not sure I am explaining myself properly here as I have not slept yet..but as usual it makes sense in my head, just probably does not come out right.
What feminism means to me..as I said earlier
So..anything goes, as long as the desired result is the same, in short :p
...no you make perfect sense and explain well...and I think we’re all on the same page, it’s just more ...how does that page go forward and progress, as it were...because it’s feminism and striving for equality for females and also highlighting some of the ‘wrongs’ females endure, just through being the gender they are...females will always be and ‘play the bigger part’ because it’s about many things that they personally experience, which men don’t and haven’t because of their gender...and obviously that in itself, will mean that females will often be the ‘leads’ in discussion etc because they have personal experiences and insights that a man could never have...but then, there would be times for me also, when the lead of a man in a discussion, could be very progressive, also...so then the danger there is that feminism could ‘alienate’, some potential great allies...and could potentially alienate through gender alone, which is basically what we women and we feminists are giving our experiences of.../..of the discrimination and oppressions felt by us because of only our very gender...
...the men that would say...oh, stop complaining and go and look at female gender mutilation etc...well, they aren’t the men that feminism would ever want to have as an ally or ‘lead’ voice though...so yeah, we’ll just go ahead and not give their voices any part in the discussions....because those voices are obviously not recognising ‘feminism’...
...anyways, I’m probably the one who isn’t explaining well because I’m rushing, so I’ll just hope something makes some sense, somehow...
I haven't done much research on this, because it's sorta a newer revelation. There does seem to be a big correlation between some of the hard-left agendas out there and feminists in academia. For example, much of the stuff Vicky you take issue with, for example, the gender rules and pronouns, etc... a lot of the "scientific" and academic backing came from Women's Studies folk.
I didn't know this, but when I took a class in college that was supposed to be history (liberal arts), ended up being a weed-picking and artwork made of trash creating course... my essays were actual trash, but as long as I kept a certain tone (pro-hippy, super lefty stuff), then I was guaranteed a very easy A... one of my essays was titled "Trees are Good For The Environment"... that was the first time I was ever in school that felt highly influenced by some sort of political agenda and I was pissed I paid $400 to participate in a fraud (but it was required). This was years ago, but I looked up the professor recently and it was a Women's Studies professor... It wouldn't occur to me to take a Women's Studies course on my own, so I really had no idea the kind of agendas that come from them.
There was another class I signed up for, which was Asian history... it ended up being a philosophy course (???), as it had a ton of philosophy majors in it, and the lady was talking about how she was going to force us to think real hard, and answer all these super personal and penetrating questions to get into the base of our skulls. Except this would all be exposed and we would be meant to answer as honest as possible through group pressure. I dropped it right away as thankfully that was not required (kinda sad to lose the opportunity to learn the history tho...) and the last thing I needed was some nut-job digging into my business with the support of peer pressure in order to root out our "inner truths". No telling what the purpose was, as she didn't make this clear--it was just supposed to be a trust your professor sorta thing. It didn't have anything to do with Asian history, and I did not like the sound of it... at all...
So I'm a little cautious about certain rhetoric when it comes to mainstream opinions, because I'm not sure if my backing is what is allowing some of this to seep into the mainstream.
It is good that the movement(s) get criticism from men, because let's be honest, they're good bullsh*t detectors too. They also help to pump the brakes on some of the crazier sh*t that is getting passed for feminist theory these days. I guess I just think that resistance is balancing. It's not like men--well, non-trans men--can hijack a woman's movement. We would have to agree collectively, and I think there are some people who are sneaking things through as if it is some collective agreement... when really, it's not all women agreeing or a set agenda as you say... but that's what is being portrayed in the media, that we all agreeing to champion things that most women have no real clue about.
I did say to my husband that I thought after Trump's win, that women would be leading the way forward in terms of keeping up the pressure, but I think that that some is also needed at times the other direction to keep things from getting out o hand. In other words, Yin-Yang.
Vicky.
06-02-2018, 07:08 AM
Apparently 'womens studies' is now 'gender studies'..so my sister informs me. Not sure if thats just her uni or not but thats seriously depressing. Not gender as in sex (as some would read that as male and female studies, which would be more 'equal') but gender as in...a mythical soul...an essence inside us apparently. So basically..a religion. Womens studies has been replaced by another R.E.
Ammi we are totally on the same page, but writing essays about that same page in different ways :p
thesheriff443
06-02-2018, 07:34 AM
A true saying of mine in the company of women is, us girls got to stick together.
Ashley.
06-02-2018, 08:05 AM
Some members I get so wrong, I read them as very male and they turn out to be women. Others I read as female, and it turns out they are male. And some, I read as male, they claim they are female for ages and ages, and then it turns out they were male all along :D
I think avatars with newer members does this too. Once you get to know someone a bit more it seems more obvious...obviously. But I do tend to assume that those with male avatars are male and such, even when the avatars are of BB contestants.
I do this, too... Niamh will always be Conor McGregor, in my eyes.
Niamh.
06-02-2018, 10:04 AM
A slightly more depressing one, about the erosion of the very word woman...
From here, not sure if that poster actually wrote it or not
https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3159058-Disgusted-by-all-the-transphobia-here?msgid=75363686
Sorry, I read it like an hour ago and your poem reminded me of it so I had to share :laugh:
It's really well written and the total opposite to Ammis :laugh:
Niamh.
06-02-2018, 10:09 AM
I do this, too... Niamh will always be Conor McGregor, in my eyes.
I'm Eddie Vedder these days Ashley :hee:
user104658
06-02-2018, 11:00 AM
Supersolid
:smug:
Livia
06-02-2018, 03:22 PM
You're not helping this debate, Alf.
Niamh.
06-02-2018, 03:25 PM
You're not helping this debate, Alf.
Some how I don't think he's trying to :laugh:
Livia
06-02-2018, 03:29 PM
Some how I don't think he's trying to :laugh:
No I'm sure... but bloody hell... I could take about twenty seconds of the incoherent rantings of some random Scottish bloke. If I wanted the engage in that I'd PM Leather Trumpet.
Niamh.
06-02-2018, 03:30 PM
No I'm sure... but bloody hell... I could take about twenty seconds of the incoherent rantings of some random Scottish bloke. If I wanted the engage in that I'd PM Leather Trumpet.
https://media1.tenor.com/images/7702c2abc3ac7ea74ce376e8dc79e7d6/tenor.gif?itemid=7292475
So was they or wasn't they terrorists?
Livia
06-02-2018, 03:36 PM
So was they or wasn't they terrorists?
They were not. There's a discussion today that they are going to pardon some of the women. About time.
They were not. There's a discussion today that they are going to pardon some of the women. About time.Who's leading the discussion, is it terrorist sympathiser Corbyn?
I'm right, it is isn't it?
Niamh.
06-02-2018, 03:40 PM
Who's leading the discussion, is it terrorist sympathiser Corbyn?
Corbyn is like the new star of Godwins law :laugh:
Livia
06-02-2018, 03:41 PM
Who's leading the discussion, is it terrorist sympathiser Corbyn?
No, it's feminist Amber Rudd.
Livia
06-02-2018, 03:41 PM
Corbyn is like the new star of Godwins law :laugh:
Niamh! Niamh! He said Corbyn! Ban him!
Not really, I love Alfie...
Funny enough, if the American revolution occurred in the modern age, we would've probably been labeled as terrorists. :laugh::laugh: YT: TERRORIST Yankee Protesters Caught Red-Handed Destroying Private Property
Think of all that tea us Yanks spilt
I don't think it's a good idea to pardon crimes like arson and bombings tbh, gives a green light to anyone who thinks they have a worthy cause to use violence to achieve it
The Worlds gone bonkers! Never did I see myself quoting Jodie Marsh in agreement.
"In this day and age I’d be EMBARRASSED to call myself a feminist..... truly. New wave feminists are female-hating, man-hating, ranting hippies with far too much time on their hands who are offended by all the wrong things"
Jodie Marsh
Northern Monkey
08-02-2018, 08:12 PM
The Worlds gone bonkers! Never did I see myself quoting Jodie Marsh in agreement.
"In this day and age I’d be EMBARRASSED to call myself a feminist..... truly. New wave feminists are female-hating, man-hating, ranting hippies with far too much time on their hands who are offended by all the wrong things"
Jodie Marsh
:clap1:
Jack_
08-02-2018, 08:33 PM
I don't really know where else to put this, and don't think it warrants its own thread - but I watched this the other night after it was shared onto my social media feed, and I think there's some really interesting reflections on (toxic) masculinity, intersectionality, anti-feminism, white nationalism, and the rise Trump - among others.
wLVrvIpPmwo
I don't really know where else to put this, and don't think it warrants its own thread - but I watched this the other night after it was shared onto my social media feed, and I think there's some really interesting reflections on (toxic) masculinity, intersectionality, anti-feminism, white nationalism, and the rise Trump - among others.
wLVrvIpPmwo1.15 in, he says he was inspired by women's studies and gender studies. That explains his hatred of men.
Jack_
08-02-2018, 10:10 PM
1.15 in, he says he was inspired by women's studies and gender studies. That explains is hatred of men.
And, with all due respect Alf, '1.15 in' explains why this post has missed the mark completely. At no point does he imply or explicitly state he hates men. I expect you already know that, but if you don't then not watching is the reason why.
Be better.
RileyH
08-02-2018, 10:15 PM
The Worlds gone bonkers! Never did I see myself quoting Jodie Marsh in agreement.
"In this day and age I’d be EMBARRASSED to call myself a feminist..... truly. New wave feminists are female-hating, man-hating, ranting hippies with far too much time on their hands who are offended by all the wrong things"
Jodie Marsh
aah legend Jodie <33
Marches
08-02-2018, 10:18 PM
Omg if I hear the word toxic masculinity again in my life time I’ll scream
I don't really know where else to put this, and don't think it warrants its own thread - but I watched this the other night after it was shared onto my social media feed, and I think there's some really interesting reflections on (toxic) masculinity, intersectionality, anti-feminism, white nationalism, and the rise Trump - among others.
wLVrvIpPmwo
I managed to get through it and it seems like a fairly genre view of gender relations in society. Maybe this is not supposed to be rigorous, and I gathered that, but I feel like compared to what I’ve even read, heard and seen on women’s studies, this was a little bit thin on supporting it's premise...
He seems to be able to "emote" his points well and seems quite analytical at other points, but his interpretations of gender traits and his description of how this supports his interpretation of toxic masculinity is a little thin on detail and very analog in supporting his premise. The way I interpreted it is he was saying, “Well, society has these issues and it's occurring between these groups disproportionately” ... ok... but he doesn't seem to be looking at the other side of the coin, of how his view of masculinity (which we don't apparently share) has played a role in shaping society in a positive manner (to all the same groups benefit). So it seems like a bit of a paradox, almost religious at some segments... an us versus them perspective, evil versus good, sort of view if you will. We have to convince men to “be our allies”, etc. Which means he apparently thinks they’re the enemy…
What he does a lot of in his speech is trying to latch onto what the viewer is feeling about their position in society. For example, if you’re a woman and you have yourself been taught you’ve lost in the genetic lottery, then you’re going to feel like his points speak to you and how you feel about your placement in society. This doesn’t necessarily validate his argument(s) or yours and I’s experience.
The interviewer describes his views at sections as “inspiring” and “powerful”, which also clues us in right away this isn’t even a debate, but a call to arms for our empathy.
So the woman asks at about 9:15--I'll transcribe...
“@And out of that group of men that sort of have—the men that have been centered in our society so far—come a lot of men that we would say are somehow problematic and are creating social problems. So you have studied amongst them, militia men, mass shooters, anti-feminist men, domestic terrorists… and in your new book, nazi’s and white supremacists. These are men who perhaps come out of your interest that your activism and your pedagogy is in line with your research. Today we describe them, even in popular culture, as toxic men. Men who are embodying a toxic masculinity. And that’s what I’ve been asked to sorta focus on for our talk today…
So can you first like—define masculinity for me—and talk about a little bit about the difference between masculinity and being a person with a male body… and then reflect on that idea of toxic masculinity?”
“@Let me go back to the preface, the predicate of your question, um yes… I have focused on a lot of guys who are angry and complain a lot about masculinity. And the ones that think they’re not empowered—that they’re not privileged… and I do this for political reason… because we in the Gender Studies world—feminist studies world—come out of talking about um—masculinity as being powerful. And um-I think… I think that’s not men’s experience of this… and I think this is an interesting an important sort of entry point into this conversation… so like feminism basically offered women a symmetry between the social and the individual. The social observation was women as a group are not in power. And individually, women didn’t feel powerful. So feminism basically said let’s address both of those, the individual powerlessness and the social powerlessness. When you apply that same syllogism to men—men are in power—(everyone agrees)—but when you say, therefore men must feel powerful… they look at you cross-eyed, I don’t have any power, my wife bosses me around, my kids boss me around, my boss bosses me around. Now what happened as a result of that, so-so, with women have a kind of symmetry, with men you have asymmetry… no all of the power has not trickled down to individual men feeling powerful.”
I mean that’s a lot to unpack. The interviewer did a terrible job of stopping him at several points in the middle of his monologues to see where this was going and how this exactly supports his premise of toxic masculinity?... it seemed like a very confusing answer and he failed to describe what masculinity even is (in his definition).
Also, “Women don’t feel powerful”. Those aren’t just generalities, he’s claiming to know how all women feel. Does it make this the rule? There used to be a blockage on women's rights, but in 2018, can we really say the same is true? Do they have all the power and can they exercise control over the group? Of course not. But this wasn’t the purpose of suffrage or feminism.
It seems like he's arguing that there’s a big black hole underneath our feet sucking away at the foundation of women-hood to keep us in place. It’s big, it’s treacherous and oh it’s there… and you would feel it there if we just paid attention. Can we see how this is a problematic way to make any argument?
Personally speaking, I do think that men do tend to do a better relationship with the idea and word “power”, especially personal empowerment. Women, do tend to have more issues with personal power. It’s more common for women, but not necessarily the rule. Is this because of –grrr—evil socially constructed masculinity – or -- is this because of socially constructed femininity?
I'd argue--anecdotal of course--that I know more men (especially white men) that feel lost, disillusioned and disconnected from their personal power than I do women who feel lost and these things. The common link seems to be that these men are told they must be more feminine, must be more empathetic, must suppress their inner drive and not be aggressive...
I'd argue that a good case study should be done to examine the benefits of masculinity in women, but that it doesn't even have to be that. If women are being signaled in popular media that she is not in power, that she should be thin as a straw and etc in order to feel powerful... then someone out there will believe it. Just the same, they will also believe they are a victim if told enough... so our feelings are not a good indicator of what we need to do to tackle these divisions.
On the same token, what effect does popular culture have on men? I think this interview is very dis-compassionate (thanks identity politics). I'll give it to him that he's admitted that he helps to perpetuate these stereotypes against men for political reasons, but can anyone but me see the problems with this? He's using the same tools the other side would use while arguing against them.
Denver
09-02-2018, 12:53 AM
It means Equal Rights anybody who wants more is not a feminist
Mystic Mock
09-02-2018, 04:43 AM
Feminism is supposed to be equality for men and women, the good and the bad.
Livia
09-02-2018, 02:50 PM
The Worlds gone bonkers! Never did I see myself quoting Jodie Marsh in agreement.
"In this day and age I’d be EMBARRASSED to call myself a feminist..... truly. New wave feminists are female-hating, man-hating, ranting hippies with far too much time on their hands who are offended by all the wrong things"
Jodie Marsh
Sorry Alfie, but LOL... JODIE MARSH? Are you kidding me? Do you think that Jodie Marsh has ever spent any time thinking about feminism? She's only famous because she was a career cock-pleaser and obvious non-thinker and now she's being quoted in a thread about feminism? I'll tell you, Alfie... If feminist knowledge was gunpowder, Jodie Marsh wouldn't have enough to blow her hat off.
user104658
09-02-2018, 02:55 PM
Sorry Alfie, but LOL... JODIE MARSH? Are you kidding me? Do you think that Jodie Marsh has ever spent any time thinking about feminism? She's only famous because she was a career cock-pleaser and obvious non-thinker and now she's being quoted in a thread about feminism? I'll tell you, Alfie... If feminist knowledge was gunpowder, Jodie Marsh wouldn't have enough to blow her hat off.
Isn't that "slut shaming", Livia? :nono:
She is obviously a feminist...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/06/article-2045501-0E3835E800000578-851_634x865.jpg
Livia
09-02-2018, 03:00 PM
Isn't that "slut shaming", Livia? :nono:
She is obviously a feminist...
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/10/06/article-2045501-0E3835E800000578-851_634x865.jpg
No, idiot shaming, TS.
That picture makes her look like the product of a late-night knee-trembler between David Dickinson and a large string bag of walnuts.
Northern Monkey
09-02-2018, 04:29 PM
No, idiot shaming, TS.
That picture makes her look like the product of a late-night knee-trembler between David Dickinson and a large string bag of walnuts.
:joker:
Marches
09-02-2018, 05:43 PM
Feminists itt if you saw injustice for men’s rights would you campaign or help them?
Livia
09-02-2018, 06:31 PM
Feminists itt if you saw injustice for men’s rights would you campaign or help them?
Yes, without a doubt. And plenty of women do. One of my female friends from uni who is now a barrister regularly works pro bono for Fathers for Justice... for instance. Everyone faces injustice and it's the job of the whole society to recognise it and to stand up to it wherever and whenever it rears its head.
GoldHeart
09-02-2018, 06:53 PM
Yes, without a doubt. And plenty of women do. One of my female friends from uni who is now a barrister regularly works pro bono for Fathers for Justice... for instance. Everyone faces injustice and it's the job of the whole society to recognise it and to stand up to it wherever and whenever it rears its head.
The problem we have is there's injustice on both sides. But some people only care more about one gender.
Father's for justice needs support as there's some men out there who aren't allowed to see their kids because their ex partner's are using the kids as a weapon, so then it has to go through the court system .
Liberty4eva
13-02-2018, 07:54 AM
There's loads of debates as to wether Courtney can be a feminist because she's a man that dresses as a woman
People think Ann saying women are equal already doesn't make her a feminist
And obviously Donal Trump recent stated he wasn't a feminist
So what does the word and movement mean to you, and by your definition are you a feminist?
What Feminism is on paper is radically different than what it is in reality. When was the last time you heard a self-proclaimed "feminist" voice concern over the inequality men experience in child-custody cases or something like that? Feminism, if defined by what it is in practice, is for the advancement of the interests of one gender over the other. And do you know what the ironic thing is? It has made women more miserable today than they were generations ago.
Men and women are different, both in body and mind. Embrace what you are and you will live a happier life.
GoldHeart
13-02-2018, 09:58 AM
What Feminism is on paper is radically different than what it is in reality. When was the last time you heard a self-proclaimed "feminist" voice concern over the inequality men experience in child-custody cases or something like that? Feminism, if defined by what it is in practice, is for the advancement of the interests of one gender over the other. And do you know what the ironic thing is? It has made women more miserable today than they were generations ago.
Men and women are different, both in body and mind. Embrace what you are and you will live a happier life.
That's the problem we keep seeing the terrible examples of "feminists" , that's why I don't like that word it's been tainted .
I watched a video on YouTube and a woman was raising awareness on female abuse victims ,which is fair enough but as soon as the presenter mentioned that men get abused as well ,she suddenly went quiet and it's like it hurt her to agree with him and she barely agreed through gritted teeth style.
When we think back to when women couldn't vote and had trouble getting the jobs they wanted , it was then about fighting for them to be treated the SAME as men .And for EQUALITY .
But now we've gone backwards, there's alot of double standards. There's a few who abuse feminism and seem to have a stuck up bitchy attitude and think they're superior to men :bored: .
I'm a woman who hates INEQUALITY on both sides, one gender shouldn't get priority over the other .
Marches
13-02-2018, 10:08 AM
That's the problem we keep seeing the terrible examples of "feminists" , that's why I don't like that word it's been tainted .
I watched a video on YouTube and a woman was raising awareness on female abuse victims ,which is fair enough but as soon as the presenter mentioned that men get abused as well ,she suddenly went quiet and it's like it hurt her to agree with him and she barely agreed through gritted teeth style.
When we think back to when women couldn't vote and had trouble getting the jobs they wanted , it was then about fighting for them to be treated the SAME as men .And for EQUALITY .
But now we've gone backwards, there's alot of double standards. There's a few who abuse feminism and seem to have a stuck up bitchy attitude and think they're superior to men :bored: .
I'm a woman who hates INEQUALITY on both sides, one gender shouldn't get priority over the other .
Slay
I think the number of radical feminist that abuse the label is bigger than a lot of people think tho. I’ve met these sorta people before and I didn’t even think they existed irl
GoldHeart
13-02-2018, 10:18 AM
Slay
I think the number of radical feminist that abuse the label is bigger than a lot of people think tho. I’ve met these sorta people before and I didn’t even think they existed irl
I've seen tons of feminazi videos on YouTube and it's embarrassing and ridiculous .
There's some decent feminists around,but it's mostly the crazy ones that get all the lime light and they talk utter BS :facepalm: .
Marches
13-02-2018, 10:26 AM
I've seen tons of feminazi videos on YouTube and it's embarrassing and ridiculous .
There's some decent feminists around,but it's mostly the crazy ones that get all the lime light and they talk utter BS :facepalm: .
Yeah it’s pretty rediculous lol. A lot of the nice feminists really mean well they’re just told by other woman statistics and the mentality that ‘if you’re not a feminist, you don’t believe in equality!’. I’d literally adore the movement if a lot of people in it didn’t have this mentality as it’s so backwards.
...I think, whether female or male..most who support feminism, also support equalism...as those who support and strive for equalism also support feminism...apart from a few extremes and there are always some extremes in most things...feminism though by definition is about the support of women’s rights of equality and fairness in the things that haven’t reached that equality yet, those specific things...but that doesn’t mean that any inequalities for men are dismissed or disregarded though...that’s also very much in the focus as well and part of being a feminist...maybe feminism and equalism should be considered as two entirely separate things ..(even though for me, they’re both a combined thing and goal..)...just with a potential danger that ‘femism’ could alienate, to hinder progress...
Brillopad
13-02-2018, 07:14 PM
Yeah it’s pretty rediculous lol. A lot of the nice feminists really mean well they’re just told by other woman statistics and the mentality that ‘if you’re not a feminist, you don’t believe in equality!’. I’d literally adore the movement if a lot of people in it didn’t have this mentality as it’s so backwards.
You make it sound like feminist is a dirty word - why wouldn’t any woman be proud to be a feminist. Feminism simply means believing in female equality so it makes no sense for anyone who claims to believe in equality to deny being a feminist. I think they see feminism as meaning more than that when it doesn’t. People really need to grow a pair.
Kizzy
13-02-2018, 08:35 PM
It is a dirty word, it's been made one, like 'progressive' and 'pc' and 'socialist'
These are good and positive traits, but touted like dirty words... :/
Brillopad
13-02-2018, 10:32 PM
It is a dirty word, it's been made one, like 'progressive' and 'pc' and 'socialist'
These are good and positive traits, but touted like dirty words... :/
PC has become a dirty word due to the over-the-top controlling behaviour of those that indulge. Their doing - no-one elses.
Eddie.
14-02-2018, 12:00 AM
I don't believe in feminists, I think all genders should be equal tbh...
user104658
14-02-2018, 12:54 AM
PC has become a dirty word due to the over-the-top controlling behaviour of those that indulge. Their doing - no-one elses.
So some words can be tainted, but others can't? How do you come to that conclusion?
Feminism has become a dirty word for almost exactly the same reasons; aggressive, controlling and exclusionary behaviour from people who use the word as a banner term for their cause.
Niamh.
14-02-2018, 01:11 PM
I don't believe in feminists, I think all genders should be equal tbh...
So you do agree with feminists then
Withano
14-02-2018, 01:12 PM
So you do agree with feminists then
:joker: I think this is the earliest in the afternoon I have ever laughed.
Crimson Dynamo
14-02-2018, 01:13 PM
For me it comes across as a negative word.
Niamh.
14-02-2018, 01:24 PM
:joker: I think this is the earliest in the afternoon I have ever laughed.
Happy Valentines Day Withano :love:
GoldHeart
14-02-2018, 02:08 PM
So some words can be tainted, but others can't? How do you come to that conclusion?
Feminism has become a dirty word for almost exactly the same reasons; aggressive, controlling and exclusionary behaviour from people who use the word as a banner term for their cause.
That's what I've been saying the word Feminism has been tainted ,but when we say that people think we're being dramatic but it's true.
There's too many bad examples of feminists and it ruins it for the sane ones :facepalm:.
user104658
14-02-2018, 03:26 PM
That's what I've been saying the word Feminism has been tainted ,but when we say that people think we're being dramatic but it's true.
There's too many bad examples of feminists and it ruins it for the sane ones :facepalm:.
There's some weird refusal to admit it, though, as if doing so is in some way a "defeat". It's more about stubbornness than any sort of desire for equality, though :shrug:.
Niamh.
14-02-2018, 03:29 PM
There's some weird refusal to admit it, though, as if doing so is in some way a "defeat". It's more about stubbornness than any sort of desire for equality, though :shrug:.
Or people just don't think the same as you. Could be that aswell :think:
GoldHeart
14-02-2018, 04:47 PM
Or people just don't think the same as you. Could be that aswell :think:
:joker: :clap1:
user104658
14-02-2018, 06:29 PM
Or people just don't think the same as you. Could be that aswell :think:The general bitterness, snarkiness and sarcasm that often surrounds the issue would suggest otherwise though, surely? That it's just more team-forming and tribalism, "loyalty to the feminism team", and not actually all that concerned with solutions that increase equality. Which is supposedly the aim? It just doesn't seem that self-declared "feminists(tm)" would ever willingly diverge from that, for some reason, all-important label EVEN IF doing so would actually result in increased equality, and more quickly. And if that is the case, then the primary aim of feminism is clearly NOT equality, but rather, something else, if winning the battle is more important than the overall practical outcome.
Feminism HAS become a toxic term, there's vast amounts of evidence that it at this point promotes huge, unhelpful backlash. It's absolutely everywhere. And the huge denial campaign surrounding it is little more than pettiness and point scoring.
"In My Opinion", of course, if it's for some reason still necessary to point out that I am fully aware that "other people think differently".
Smithy
14-02-2018, 06:41 PM
I don't believe in feminists, I think all genders should be equal tbh...
Jesus ****ing Christ :laugh2::laugh2:
Vicky.
14-02-2018, 06:53 PM
The general bitterness, snarkiness and sarcasm that often surrounds the issue would suggest otherwise though, surely? That it's just more team-forming and tribalism, "loyalty to the feminism team", and not actually all that concerned with solutions that increase equality. Which is supposedly the aim? It just doesn't seem that self-declared "feminists(tm)" would ever willingly diverge from that, for some reason, all-important label EVEN IF doing so would actually result in increased equality, and more quickly. And if that is the case, then the primary aim of feminism is clearly NOT equality, but rather, something else, if winning the battle is more important than the overall practical outcome.
.
Like?
What do you think would actually increase equality? Which solutions are you talking about that would bring around change quickly that feminists are ignoring?
Genuinely interested in this.
user104658
14-02-2018, 07:04 PM
Like?
What do you think would actually increase equality? Which solutions are you talking about that would bring around change quickly that feminists are ignoring?
Genuinely interested in this.Redefining an equality movement that actually feels equal for those who currently don't feel like it's equal - even if it IS equal - is essential for the final push in equality. Completely essential. Whether right or wrong, whether those who happily wear the badge of feminism want to believe it or not, the term "feminism", and the idea that males can only support and not be a part of the dialogue, are themselves representation of inequality for many and will generate a degree of backlash.
The important part here is, that is the case whether rightly or wrongly and no amount of face-palming / laughing / insisting on the "real" definition will change that. Which is why in my opinion, clinging to the term is a collective act of defiance and stubbornness - "you can't and won't take this from us!" - rather than any sort of tool for achieving equality.
Why is it all-important? Because at this point, if the dialogue doesn't change, all that is happening is preaching to the choir. Campaign after campaign to gain the support of whom? To raise awareness with whom? The people who already believe in and support equality? its cyclical and pointless. At some point the focus has to shift. And sooner rather than later because, if you take a close look at at, its fairly evident that support is actually already slipping.
Vicky.
14-02-2018, 07:07 PM
OK so you think naming feminism, as something other than feminism will increase equality faster? Thats how that reads to me.
I reckon no matter what feminism is called, and even if male people were the ones 'setting the dialogue' so to speak, it would still be deeply unpopular. And always will be. Its all well and good saying 'I believe in equality' but when push comes to shove, so many actually do not, and this is shown up time and time again when moves that might actually go towards increasing equality are trashed left right and centre and feminists vilified. Hell half the stuff feminists get the blame for it not even anything to do with fmeinists D:
Same as BLM get a whole bunch of negativity tbh. Aims are admirable, but people are all 'surely ALL lives matter' and such.
Marches
14-02-2018, 07:13 PM
But why feminism and not humanitarian or egalitarian? Why must the focus be on women? Why has most of society prioritised protecting just women? Why are male abuse shelters being refused funding and why are men not allowed in most abuse shelters?
Vicky.
14-02-2018, 07:15 PM
This is all quite new to me tbh. I would not have described myself as a feminist a year or so ago. I remember niamh and livia ripping me a new one for saying I was not a feminist :laugh: I did think feminist means someone actively campaigning for change..and also did have the idea that feminists were all hairy legged dungaree wearing bra burning man hating lesbians. Which is what the press consistently try to make out is the case. Its fairly recently I have discovered this is not actually the case.
I don't understand a LOT of feminist arguments. So don't really feel I am 'qualified' to be talking about this stuff.
user104658
14-02-2018, 07:15 PM
OK so you think naming feminism as something other than feminism will increase equality faster? Thats how that reads to me.Renaming? No, not just that, the current way the cause focuses itself needs to be entirely redefined from the ground up. The name needs to be abandonned for two reasons. The first being that it has become heavily associated with angry, militant, sarcastic misandry. I know that self declared feminists who dont fall into that category find that hard to admit or accept, but it has, and at this point, it isn't a "small extreme minority" at all... It's a small extreme minority heavily backed by every idiot with a social media account and an axe to grind.
The second is relatively simple. The idea that a true end-game equality movement can be named "feminism" is obviously and immediately flawed.
user104658
14-02-2018, 07:22 PM
Here's something interesting though: I would have far less problem with feminism if it DID simply declare itself a movement championing / protecting women and addressing women's issues. The "transsexuals accessing female toilets and changing areas" campaign would fall exactly under that category... It is purely a women's rights issue and not a male/female equality issue.
My real problem with the movement, is that it DOES declare itself "THE" equality movement when it's not necessarily the best equipped for that role at all. Yet it's so large, and people get so... Hm... When it's questioned, that it leaves absolutely no room for actual equality campaigning.
Vicky.
14-02-2018, 07:22 PM
But why feminism and not humanitarian or egalitarian? Why must the focus be on women? Why has most of society prioritised protecting just women? Why are male abuse shelters being refused funding and why are men not allowed in most abuse shelters?
Those are already things, and people are free to define as those if they want to :shrug:
My understanding of feminism is not quite just equality of the sexes, that would be a humanist (which I am also). Feminism to me is liberation of women from oppression. Which is why IMO it makes sense for it to be female centred.
Female abuse shelters are refused funding also as funding is just not really there. Also its a supply and demand thing. Most shelters I know of are only still open due to fundraising/donations from the general public, and usually women. Men could also fundraise and set up shelters (most..possibly nearly all female ones were actually set up by women, to help women. So there is nothing stopping men opening one to help men) for themselves.
Men are not usually able to use female shelters because most women there are escaping violence from men. Unfortunately men are in a bit of a bad situation here as a lot DV against men is also committed by men (be they fathers, brothers, partners etc) so whilst it may be best for them mentally to not be around men, its not feasible when some shelters are split by sex.
I don't think women should be in male only shelters either BTW. I don;t know if they are allowed to be.
Vicky.
14-02-2018, 07:26 PM
Here's something interesting though: I would have far less problem with feminism if it DID simply declare itself a movement championing / protecting women and addressing women's issues. The "transsexuals accessing female toilets and changing areas" campaign would fall exactly under that category... It is purely a women's rights issue and not a male/female equality issue.
My real problem with the movement, is that it DOES declare itself "THE" equality movement when it's not necessarily the best equipped for that role at all. Yet it's so large, and people get so... Hm... When it's questioned, that it leaves absolutely no room for actual equality campaigning.
See this is actually what I understand feminism to be :shrug: I know many do say its about equality for both sexes, but I understand it to be addressing womens rights/issues, to eventually achieve equality with men. So yes, its about equality as an endgame, but the way to get there is to address womens rights.
If that makes sense.
Marches
14-02-2018, 07:27 PM
Here's something interesting though: I would have far less problem with feminism if it DID simply declare itself a movement championing / protecting women and addressing women's issues. The "transsexuals accessing female toilets and changing areas" campaign would fall exactly under that category... It is purely a women's rights issue and not a male/female equality issue.
My real problem with the movement, is that it DOES declare itself "THE" equality movement when it's not necessarily the best equipped for that role at all. Yet it's so large, and people get so... Hm... When it's questioned, that it leaves absolutely no room for actual equality campaigning.
This
The amount of times I’ve been told I don’t believe in equality because I don’t call myself a feminist :shocked:
Marches
14-02-2018, 07:32 PM
Those are already things, and people are free to define as those if they want to :shrug:
My understanding of feminism is not quite just equality of the sexes, that would be a humanist (which I am also). Feminism to me is liberation of women from oppression. Which is why IMO it makes sense for it to be female centred.
Female abuse shelters are refused funding also as funding is just not really there. Also its a supply and demand thing. Most shelters I know of are only still open due to fundraising/donations from the general public, and usually women. Men could also fundraise and set up shelters (most..possibly nearly all female ones were actually set up by women, to help women. So there is nothing stopping men opening one to help men) for themselves.
Men are not usually able to use female shelters because most women there are escaping violence from men. Unfortunately men are in a bit of a bad situation here as a lot DV against men is also committed by men (be they fathers, brothers, partners etc) so whilst it may be best for them mentally to not be around men, its not feasible when some shelters are split by sex.
I don't think women should be in male only shelters either BTW. I don;t know if they are allowed to be.
Feminism has a far bigger following than the other two and it’s considered the ‘cool’ thing to be. A lot of young people, including myself, have had the term shoved down my throat before as THE equality movement. It seems bizarre why feminism instead of something that campaignes for equality of all people
Also fundraising for said shelters is really hard because a lot of people simply think it’s black and white as only men abuse women and it doesn’t happen the other way around and that the few cases are anomalies.
Vicky.
14-02-2018, 07:38 PM
Feminism has a far bigger following than the other two and it’s considered the ‘cool’ thing to be. A lot of young people, including myself, have had the term shoved down my throat before as THE equality movement. It seems bizarre why feminism instead of something that campaignes for equality of all people
Also fundraising for said shelters is really hard because a lot of people simply think it’s black and white as only men abuse women and it doesn’t happen the other way around and that the few cases are anomalies.
Since when?! :laugh:
I have never ever heard anyone say that only men abuse women. Its much much more common (especially to a level where a shelter would be required in the first place), but to say it never happens the other way around is just ridiculous D: Even if a few people do think that, there is nothing stopping people from fundraising for male only shelters (if they don't exist already).
user104658
14-02-2018, 07:43 PM
See this is actually what I understand feminism to be :shrug: I know many do say its about equality for both sexes, but I understand it to be addressing womens rights/issues, to eventually achieve equality with men. So yes, its about equality as an endgame, but the way to get there is to address womens rights.
If that makes sense.
But the suggestion that equality can be achieved by addressing only women's rights is a gross oversimplification... To the extent that the two are, in my opinion, barely related. They're both valuable causes, sure, but entirely separate... In fact, trying to ensure equality is respected whilst trying to tackle women's rights issues specifically is hugely difficult, AND trying to address equality issues whilst keeping the focus squarely on women's rights is near impossible. In both cases, it's needlessly tying one arm behind our backs, and to be frank, there's a reason that it quite blatantly isn't really working as a combined cause. Is there anyone who can say with a straight face that it's currently effective? It's a bar brawl.
Vicky.
14-02-2018, 07:52 PM
So again, what would be effective? Should we just do nothing at all while women are still treat like crap..
Of course not all mens lives are totally rosy either, but it really is mainly women who receive the ****ty end of the stick.
user104658
14-02-2018, 08:03 PM
So again, what would be effective? Should we just do nothing at all while women are still treat like crap..
Of course not all mens lives are totally rosy either, but it really is mainly women who receive the ****ty end of the stick.
No, there are plenty of issues facing women still, especially globally, that need to be tackled for what they are, and by all means call that movement feminism, though I personally think the term itself is permanently damaged.
When it comes to the actual pursuit of equality, though, feminism monopolies the narrative in destructive ways and that's what needs to end. The idea that the path to equality lies solely in female empowerment is fundamentally flawed. In fact the idea that any equality battle is limited to "imbalances between the sexes" is hugely short sighted... There are huge amounts of oppression in our society, massive inequalities across the board, and yes maybe a lot of those "at the top of the pile" happen to be men but that misses the point by a country mile. Real inequality has absolutely nothing to do with penises and vaginas, its all just a distraction.
Withano
14-02-2018, 08:15 PM
Lets be serious, the issue is people confusing feminists with misandrists, and misandrists confusing their views for feminism. Take those idiots out of the equation, and feminism (its real meaning) is an essential part of the 21st century.
user104658
14-02-2018, 08:23 PM
Lets be serious, the issue is people confusing feminists with misandrists, and misandrists confusing their views for feminism. Take those idiots out of the equation, and feminism (its real meaning) is an essential part of the 21st century.
Its misandrists confusing their views for feminism, calling their views feminism, being recognised by others as misandrists who call themselves feminists, and other non-misandrist feminists flat out refusing to accept that there are many feminists who are misandrists. "Those aren't real feminists tho" is nothing more than a head planted firmly in the sand.
You CANNOT untangle the two at this point, it's an impossible task. The real meaning of feminism was an essential part of the 20th century, the 21st century needs to develop a more modern, nuanced and inclusive drive for equality that separates itself from that or it will simply fail.
Or doggedly cling to the current rhetoric and continue to engage in confused, scrappy skirmishes forever I guess, because the mantras must be protected at all costs. That's bound to result in some really positive outcomes.
Withano
14-02-2018, 08:27 PM
Its misandrists confusing their views for feminism, calling their views feminism, being recognised by others as misandrists who call themselves feminists, and other non-misandrist feminists flat out refusing to accept that there are many feminists who are misandrists. "Those aren't real feminists tho" is nothing more than a head planted firmly in the sand.
You CANNOT untangle the two at this point, it's an impossible task. The real meaning of feminism was an essential part of the 20th century, the 21st century needs to develop a more modern, nuanced and inclusive drive for equality that separates itself from that or it will simply fail.
Or doggedly cling to the current rhetoric and continue to engage in confused, scrappy skirmishes forever I guess, because the mantras must be protected at all costs. That's bound to result in some really positive outcomes.
I can :shrug: misandrists and feminists are different things in my head, those that think otherwise are idiots. I have that **** covered.
user104658
14-02-2018, 08:32 PM
I can :shrug: misandrists and feminists are different things in my head, those that think otherwise are idiots. I have that **** covered.You can untangle it in your head, sure. I'm sure if you really tried you could even untangle it in a few other people's heads. But you can't untangle it from the direction of the movement itself, certainly not faster than its falling apart.
I have to go back to the "preaching to the choir" part here. If the only people who are listening to "real feminist rhetoric" are people who are *already* "real feminists"... Then it isnt worth anything. At all. Unless you are particularly fond of a good circlejerk.
Withano
14-02-2018, 08:35 PM
You can untangle it in your head, sure. I'm sure if you really tried you could even untangle it in a few other people's heads. But you can't untangle it from the direction of the movement itself, certainly not faster than its falling apart.
I have to go back to the "preaching to the choir" part here. If the only people who are listening to "real feminist rhetoric" are people who are *already* "real feminists"... Then it isnt worth anything. At all. Unless you are particularly fond of a good circlejerk.
But if I can untangle it in my head, and you can untangle it in your head, and others can untangle it in their head... all thats left are the idiots who are confusing a feminist for a misandrist..
Ignoring the people discussing something they know nothing about is a much easier solution to the issue you think you have surely.
user104658
14-02-2018, 08:40 PM
But if I can untangle it in my head, and you can untangle it in your head, and others can untangle it in their head... all thats left are the idiots who are confusing a feminist for a misandrist..
Ignoring the people discussing something they know nothing about is a much easier solution to the issue you think you have surely.
Not if the primary group confusing misandry for feminism are self-titled feminists and increasing in number at a rapid pace. Its not a small group. Its rapidly becoming the distinct majority.
It also ignores the fact that trying to achieve equality under a banner that is fundamentally unequal is completely flawed logically to the extent that I don't think it's even feasible.
Marches
14-02-2018, 08:45 PM
Equality still has a far way to go for both women and men. Just puzzles me why the two are separated into different movements, one of which has like 100000x the following and both of them hating each other. It won’t ultimately achieve equality
Marches
14-02-2018, 08:47 PM
I’m also just sick and tired of these movements holding a monopoly on the idea of equality and the victim complexes it has spawned it’s not productive whatsoever
But the suggestion that equality can be achieved by addressing only women's rights is a gross oversimplification... To the extent that the two are, in my opinion, barely related. They're both valuable causes, sure, but entirely separate... In fact, trying to ensure equality is respected whilst trying to tackle women's rights issues specifically is hugely difficult, AND trying to address equality issues whilst keeping the focus squarely on women's rights is near impossible. In both cases, it's needlessly tying one arm behind our backs, and to be frank, there's a reason that it quite blatantly isn't really working as a combined cause. Is there anyone who can say with a straight face that it's currently effective? It's a bar brawl.
No, there are plenty of issues facing women still, especially globally, that need to be tackled for what they are, and by all means call that movement feminism, though I personally think the term itself is permanently damaged.
When it comes to the actual pursuit of equality, though, feminism monopolies the narrative in destructive ways and that's what needs to end. The idea that the path to equality lies solely in female empowerment is fundamentally flawed. In fact the idea that any equality battle is limited to "imbalances between the sexes" is hugely short sighted... There are huge amounts of oppression in our society, massive inequalities across the board, and yes maybe a lot of those "at the top of the pile" happen to be men but that misses the point by a country mile. Real inequality has absolutely nothing to do with penises and vaginas, its all just a distraction.
..that’s the thing, your first post...it’s almost like we have to look at feminism and equalism as two separate things which are being striven for, even though feminism is about equalism and equalism is feminism...it all feels as though it’s becoming quite blurred and hazy, in keeping a female perspective in feminism...and that’s sad, that’s wrong but it’s strange how things can start to feel as though their positives values and intentions are being perceived as more negatives...this is not a man v woman thing, not a battle of the sexes in any way, it’s an all on board thing because how could anybody not want equality in humans in society...?...and if the term feminism has suffered permanent damage, as you fear...then the striving to ‘reclaim’ it, as it were...would take too much time, which hinders the progress whilst that’s been focused on.../..that reclaiming process and turning it back to the positive necessity that it was meant to be, kind of sets it all back a bit, which is very frustrating...
user104658
15-02-2018, 09:20 AM
That's the thing though, even when it speaks of equality, feminism is about seeking equality from a female-lead perspective which is an oxymoron in itself. It isn't possible. You can seek empowerment from a female-lead perspective, trying to address imbalances on that side, and that MIGHT lead to equilibrium in the process... But you can only "seek equality" from an equal perspective.
That's the thing though, even when it speaks of equality, feminism is about seeking equality from a female-lead perspective which is an oxymoron in itself. It isn't possible. You can seek empowerment from a female-lead perspective, trying to address imbalances on that side, and that MIGHT lead to equilibrium in the process... But you can only "seek equality" from an equal perspective.
..but if there were an ‘equal perspective’, there would be no equality to seek, which we all know is not a place in time that we’ve reached yet...this is the frustration felt by many, I think...that ‘stale mate’ and how it ‘uncomplicates’ Itself so progression can continue...
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 10:01 AM
..but if there were an ‘equal perspective’, there would be no equality to seek, which we all know is not a place in time that we’ve reached yet...this is the frustration felt by many, I think...that ‘stale mate’ and how it ‘uncomplicates’ Itself so progression can continue...
Yes absolutely. Also, mens rights are pretty much only ever brought up in these discussions as a counter to feminism. I'm pretty sure if a poster on here started a thread on Fathers rights or any other mens issues then I'm sure members who consider themselves feminists would be supportive of those issues too, I know I would but why don't men bring them up more? and why do they only seem to be brought up to say but why don't you want rights for men? My answer to that is why don't men bring them up as they are men and would be the best people to do that?
Marches
15-02-2018, 10:30 AM
Yes absolutely. Also, mens rights are pretty much only ever brought up in these discussions as a counter to feminism. I'm pretty sure if a poster on here started a thread on Fathers rights or any other mens issues then I'm sure members who consider themselves feminists would be supportive of those issues too, I know I would but why don't men bring them up more? and why do they only seem to be brought up to say but why don't you want rights for men? My answer to that is why don't men bring them up as they are men and would be the best people to do that?
Because they get no support from anyone
You can sit here saying feminists would but they don’t and most of the public wouldn’t either because the media makes men out to be these sinister beings that can’t be trusted and have everything peachy. People often LAUGH when male abuse is brought up as if it’s unfathomable
user104658
15-02-2018, 11:36 AM
..but if there were an ‘equal perspective’, there would be no equality to seek, which we all know is not a place in time that we’ve reached yet...this is the frustration felt by many, I think...that ‘stale mate’ and how it ‘uncomplicates’ Itself so progression can continue...This is all entirely based on the idea that there are "two entities" seeking (or not seeking) equality, though. A hive mind of females and a hive mind of males.
How is it even feasible to achieve individual equality if the very process for doing so involves dividing us into our collective "camps"? It makes absolutely no sense whatsoever? You can't overcome division by not only following the status quo OF division... But actually encouraging or even insisting on it.
"Men should be the ones to ______"
"Women should be the ones to ______"
This is the language OF division, of sexism. And yet, somehow, accepting that "Women should be the ones to lead the way with equality issues" is supposedly part of the solution?
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 11:40 AM
Because they get no support from anyone
You can sit here saying feminists would but they don’t and most of the public wouldn’t either because the media makes men out to be these sinister beings that can’t be trusted and have everything peachy. People often LAUGH when male abuse is brought up as if it’s unfathomable
People don't laugh when male domestic abuse is brought up. Who laughs?
user104658
15-02-2018, 12:30 PM
People don't laugh when male domestic abuse is brought up. Who laughs?
My wife is on a make-up community on FaceBook (used to admin, but no longer has time for it)... it now has just under 8000 members... and some of their discussions are utterly horrendous. Several of them DO laugh and joke about punching / hitting / slapping / verbally abusing their partners. Sometimes far worse, including (but not limited to) deliberately slamming hands in doors, or even deliberately backing a car over their partners foot. Often it's claimed to be in response to infidelity but that's not really the point (and quite often it's along the lines of "I *thought* he was texting someone else").
These messages get dozens of positive replies... "LOL go girl he won't do that again!!" ... relatively few saying that it's awful (because it's an all female community, and if any try to say that it's abuse they get shouted down)... but really the most worrying part, is that they get HUNDREDS of likes / loves / "crying laughing face" emoji responses.
It's not very common in normal adult relationships, no (but then, is domestic abuse in general?) but to suggest that it doesn't happen, or that it doesn't get treated as "omg can't believe u did that hilarious!" a hell of a lot in certain circles, is just incorrect. I've seen multiple horrendous threads.
I also can't imagine a male saying "LOL I slammed my girlfriend's hand in a door and ran over her foot :laugh: " ... or even just "I thought she was cheating so I slapped her in the face" ... and not being immediately (and of course, rightly) torn to shreds for it. There's a large and actually quite well documented discrepancy.
Hell I even just watched an episode of "Friends" where Joey has a "teeny" girlfriend and she keeps punching him, and he tells them all that she's hurting him and they all treat it as a joke / make fun of him as he's "a big guy and she's so little" (until she does it to Rachel and she hits her back ... heh ... at which point they conceed that her punches really were painful). Scenarios like that are really common :shrug:. Even when I was at school it was quite "accepted" for girls to hit / kick guys if they pissed them off, but DEFINITELY never the other way around.
Jamie89
15-02-2018, 12:50 PM
People don't laugh when male domestic abuse is brought up. Who laughs?
I remember seeing a clip from an american talk show where the subject was brought up and the panel and audience were all laughing... and then later on one of them gave an apology and they all started laughing during that too :umm2:
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 01:15 PM
My wife is on a make-up community on FaceBook (used to admin, but no longer has time for it)... it now has just under 8000 members... and some of their discussions are utterly horrendous. Several of them DO laugh and joke about punching / hitting / slapping / verbally abusing their partners. Sometimes far worse, including (but not limited to) deliberately slamming hands in doors, or even deliberately backing a car over their partners foot. Often it's claimed to be in response to infidelity but that's not really the point (and quite often it's along the lines of "I *thought* he was texting someone else").
These messages get dozens of positive replies... "LOL go girl he won't do that again!!" ... relatively few saying that it's awful (because it's an all female community, and if any try to say that it's abuse they get shouted down)... but really the most worrying part, is that they get HUNDREDS of likes / loves / "crying laughing face" emoji responses.
It's not very common in normal adult relationships, no (but then, is domestic abuse in general?) but to suggest that it doesn't happen, or that it doesn't get treated as "omg can't believe u did that hilarious!" a hell of a lot in certain circles, is just incorrect. I've seen multiple horrendous threads.
I also can't imagine a male saying "LOL I slammed my girlfriend's hand in a door and ran over her foot :laugh: " ... or even just "I thought she was cheating so I slapped her in the face" ... and not being immediately (and of course, rightly) torn to shreds for it. There's a large and actually quite well documented discrepancy.
Hell I even just watched an episode of "Friends" where Joey has a "teeny" girlfriend and she keeps punching him, and he tells them all that she's hurting him and they all treat it as a joke / make fun of him as he's "a big guy and she's so little" (until she does it to Rachel and she hits her back ... heh ... at which point they conceed that her punches really were painful). Scenarios like that are really common :shrug:. Even when I was at school it was quite "accepted" for girls to hit / kick guys if they pissed them off, but DEFINITELY never the other way around.
FB comments are horrendous in general though, the s**t that people come out with on there, I really hope that most are trolling but I fear not :worry:
But anyway, why not campaign about that then, why do you expect women to do it for you? Women had to campaign for there own rights (and still do). I would stand right with you on any of your issues I agreed with
Jords
15-02-2018, 01:18 PM
annoying
GoldHeart
15-02-2018, 01:22 PM
I remember seeing a clip from an american talk show where the subject was brought up and the panel and audience were all laughing... and then later on one of them gave an apology and they all started laughing during that too :umm2:
If a man is brutally attacks by a woman, bruises the lot then there's some seriousness but you always get idiots saying the man is a "wimp" or should "walk away from her & man up " .
There's always that daft macho mentality ,where they think men should be strong all the time and not affected by anything :bored: .
Some think it's funny if a man gets slapped across the face by a woman and they assume he deserved it or they find it amusing still :notimpressed: . Double standards.
Marches
15-02-2018, 01:23 PM
FB comments are horrendous in general though, the s**t that people come out with on there, I really hope that most are trolling but I fear not :worry:
But anyway, why not campaign about that then, why do you expect women to do it for you? Women had to campaign for there own rights (and still do). I would stand right with you on any of your issues I agreed with
Men are fighting for them, in numbers that pale in comparison to the following feminism has. I’ve actually been to a men’s rights activism gathering before and it got a turn out of like 10 people. I’ve seen some online too and the numbers are similar, while felimisn protests, women’s march ect get thousand of participants. There are millions of feminism supporters in the western world. Female celebrities often get humiliated and attacked online for not identifying as feminists. It’s hard to do anything when 99.9% of the world either doesn’t care or is aiding the mentality that women ARE the victims. It’s just stupid that the word equality has been hijacked by a movement that only focuses on women, when both sexes in the western world deal with a lot of ****
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 01:24 PM
If a man is brutally attacks by a woman, bruises the lot then there's some seriousness but you always get idiots saying the man is a "wimp" or should "walk away from her & man up " .
There's always that daft macho mentality ,where they think men should be strong all the time and not affected by anything :bored: .
Some think it's funny if a man gets slapped across the face by a woman and they assume he deserved it or they find it amusing still :notimpressed: . Double standards.
Alot of times its other men who are the worst for doing that though, infact most times I've heard the phrase "man up" it was being said by a man
GoldHeart
15-02-2018, 01:43 PM
Alot of times its other men who are the worst for doing that though, infact most times I've heard the phrase "man up" it was being said by a man
Yeah I know that's mostly who I was talking about , but some women find it funny .
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 01:56 PM
Yeah I know that's mostly who I was talking about , but some women find it funny .
well they're idiots, there's always going to be idiots but my point is if men have issues that need addressing then I think they need to get organised themselves and start educating eachother as well as women and I'm sure alot of women would get behind them too
user104658
15-02-2018, 02:00 PM
But anyway, why not campaign about that then, why do you expect women to do it for you? Women had to campaign for there own rights (and still do). I would stand right with you on any of your issues I agreed with
But on one hand you're saying that women should campaign for women's stuff, and men should campaign for men's stuff... Whilst on the other saying that the aim of all of it is equality. The two concepts are totally incompatible - especially when the tribalism of "men stuff" and "women stuff" will always, inevitably, lead to a degree of misogyny / misandry on each side.
There shouldn't be a need for a separation between "men campaigning against violence against men" and "women campaigning against violence against women" because the aim is supposed to be a fundamental understanding that it makes no difference who is being abused or by whom, because no individual should be being abused, full stop. Suggesting that there need to be different campaigns is a statement that they are different issues. The suggestion that they are different issues is a clear message that "men and women are different, men's rights and women's rights are different things"... And that mindset is the opposite of one that seeks true equality.
I guess the reason that I struggle with this entire concept is that I'm individualist to the bone. I don't care if you're male or female, I don't care if I'm male or female, I refuse to categorise individuals on arbitrary attributes for any reason. Being born with male chromosomes doesn't mean that I automatically joined "the men's team" at birth, and likewise, I refuse to be essentially FORCED into legitimising "the women's team".
Wizard.
15-02-2018, 02:02 PM
It means your a femme girly girl but sometimes there's rude guys who are masc 4 masc only and it's so anti-feministic!
GoldHeart
15-02-2018, 02:03 PM
well they're idiots, there's always going to be idiots but my point is if men have issues that need addressing then I think they need to get organised themselves and start educating eachother as well as women and I'm sure alot of women would get behind them too
Not many men would admit to domestic violence though , I'm not sure how it works in same sex relationships I'm guessing they're just as scared or ashamed to report it or get help.
The men who are insensitive and harsh probably haven't experienced it . Or they'll probably just run away from their partners and decided to forget about it .
They need more awareness and support, it's like male suicide . It feels like that's only recently being acknowledged and they say more men are taking their own lives .
user104658
15-02-2018, 02:07 PM
well they're idiots, there's always going to be idiots but my point is if men have issues that need addressing then I think they need to get organised themselves and start educating eachother as well as women and I'm sure alot of women would get behind them tooThe men who try get shouted down, dismissed as "male tears", reminded to "shut up because women have it worse", accused of trying to take attention away from "real" domestic abuse...
There's a reason that these organised movements don't really exist and it's not because people haven't tried to start them. The reason is, as above, division and tribalism. A united anti-abuse campaign would be taken more seriously by the "out there" element, both male and female, than the segregated campaigns which only generate backlash. And you can say "yes but only backlash from the idiots who think it's OK!" ... But who exactly are these campaigns trying to reach? Precisely those idiots! If they only reach the non-idiots who already understand that abuse is never justified, then they are pointless, preaching to the choir, and little more than exercises in self-congratulation. Which tbqfh sort of sums up current feminism. The only people really listening and engaging are those who already define themselves as feminists, or those like me (and others on here) who don't identify with the feminism brand but nonetheless do support equality. What's the point in that, exactly?
-Sue-
15-02-2018, 02:08 PM
To me feminism is no longer is it ok for a man to say 'women belong in the kitchen' ..
Its ok for me to hold a door open for others
Its ok for me to pay for a meal for two
Its ok for me to get the drinks in
Its ok for me to be a car mechanic or any other 'mostly for men employments' if I want to (apart from sperm donor as honestly that's the one thing I cant do..)
Its ok for me to not to be treated like a piece of meat and to speak up if I feel the need to stand up for myself without someone thinking Im on my period!
^ to name but a few
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 02:15 PM
Not many men would admit to domestic violence though , I'm not sure how it works in same sex relationships I'm guessing they're just as scared or ashamed to report it or get help.
The men who are insensitive and harsh probably haven't experienced it . Or they'll probably just run away from their partners and decided to forget about it .
They need more awareness and support, it's like male suicide . It feels like that's only recently being acknowledged and they say more men are taking their own lives .
I know all this though, I don't see why any of this means feminism is bad though?
GoldHeart
15-02-2018, 02:20 PM
I know all this though, I don't see why any of this means feminism is bad though?
I've already explained in this thread why I dislike feminism the word, as too many idiots have destroyed it with BS , and they seem to want special treatment and think they're better than men . And they only care about the welfare of the female race and men don't matter to them .
I have no problem with genuine feminism ,which supports equality for both .
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 02:20 PM
The men who try get shouted down, dismissed as "male tears", reminded to "shut up because women have it worse", accused of trying to take attention away from "real" domestic abuse...
There's a reason that these organised movements don't really exist and it's not because people haven't tried to start them. The reason is, as above, division and tribalism. A united anti-abuse campaign would be taken more seriously by the "out there" element, both male and female, than the segregated campaigns which only generate backlash. And you can say "yes but only backlash from the idiots who think it's OK!" ... But who exactly are these campaigns trying to reach? Precisely those idiots! If they only reach the non-idiots who already understand that abuse is never justified, then they are pointless, preaching to the choir, and little more than exercises in self-congratulation. Which tbqfh sort of sums up current feminism. The only people really listening and engaging are those who already define themselves as feminists, or those like me (and others on here) who don't identify with the feminism brand but nonetheless do support equality. What's the point in that, exactly?
I've seen lots of things about especially male suicide that have gotten plenty of support though.
Which tbqfh sort of sums up current feminism
Self congratulation?
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 02:21 PM
I've already explained in this thread why I dislike feminism the word, as too many idiots have destroyed it with BS , and they seem to want special treatment and think they're better than men . And they only care about the welfare of the female race and men don't matter to them .
I have no problem with genuine feminism ,which supports equality for both .
what kind of special treatment do they want?
Marches
15-02-2018, 02:24 PM
Stuff like this
MNH0bmYT7os
user104658
15-02-2018, 02:27 PM
I've seen lots of things about especially male suicide that have gotten plenty of support though.
Which tbqfh sort of sums up current feminism
Self congratulation?And preaching to the choir, yes. Articles / blogs / speeches / campaigns and groups aimed at, listened to, and agreed with by the people who already agreed with them anyway. Not furthering equality nor even really maintaining current equality, and in some cases, promoting tribalism and backlash that actually erodes the progress that has been made in the past. And uncaringly with the attitude that it "shouldn't" do that and therefore a complete refusal to recognise that it does.
GoldHeart
15-02-2018, 02:29 PM
what kind of special treatment do they want?
Come on Niamh :facepalm: , you only have to watch these ridiculous feminazis on YouTube and TV to see how crazy and delusional they are . Problem is those are the morons that get a voice :bored: .
Jamie89
15-02-2018, 02:30 PM
Stuff like this
MNH0bmYT7os
Tbf if what she's saying is true I think she actually has a point :laugh: Although the headline does make it sound silly. Men do have thicker skin than women so maybe we do feel temperatures differently (I don't know if that'd have anything to do with it) and all she's actually saying is that instead of the temperature being controlled to suit men, why not have a middle ground that would better suit both, which seems fair
GoldHeart
15-02-2018, 02:31 PM
Stuff like this
MNH0bmYT7os
This is nothing, there's worst out there on YouTube :facepalm:.
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 02:32 PM
Tbf if what she's saying is true I think she actually has a point :laugh: Although the headline does make it sound silly. Men do have thicker skin than women so maybe we do feel temperatures differently (I don't know if that'd have anything to do with it) and all she's actually saying is that instead of the temperature being controlled to suit men, why not have a middle ground that would better suit both, which seems fair
no no she's a feminazi :nono:
I'm actually leaving this discussion now because it just winds me up tbh
Crimson Dynamo
15-02-2018, 02:33 PM
Meanwhile The Truth is rolling around his flat foaming at the mouth
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 02:35 PM
Meanwhile The Truth is rolling around his flat foaming at the mouth
:hehe:
GoldHeart
15-02-2018, 02:36 PM
no no she's a feminazi :nono:
I'm actually leaving this discussion now because it just winds me up tbh
Yes feminazis are what they are but they abuse the word "feminism" . Why you getting wound up ?? :conf: .
Marches
15-02-2018, 02:36 PM
Tbf if what she's saying is true I think she actually has a point :laugh: Although the headline does make it sound silly. Men do have thicker skin than women so maybe we do feel temperatures differently (I don't know if that'd have anything to do with it) and all she's actually saying is that instead of the temperature being controlled to suit men, why not have a middle ground that would better suit both, which seems fair
There is probs truth to it but it’s like she can’t ask to turn the air con down a bit which is what I think she’s trying to imply, because any normal rational human being would compromise if you said ‘I’m a bit chilly pls turn the ac down’
Niamh.
15-02-2018, 02:37 PM
Yes feminazis are what they are but they abuse the word "feminism" . Hy you getting wound up ?? :conf: .
This subject annoys me so much, it always has done, from when I was a kid :laugh:
user104658
15-02-2018, 02:40 PM
no no she's a feminazi :nono:
I'm actually leaving this discussion now because it just winds me up tbhIt winds you up because it's frustrating, it's frustrating because it is going in circles and not heading towards any further understanding or equality, and that is representative of the current movement as a whole. Disjointed, frustrating and going nowhere. And yet there's a complete refusal to even consider that this might suggest that it is no longer working and that new, inclusive and creative approaches to equality are probably a good idea at this point.
Basically... Being frustrated and wound up by the discussion in itself proves the point :shrug:.
GoldHeart
15-02-2018, 02:42 PM
This subject annoys me so much, it always has done, from when I was a kid :laugh:
We all get annoyed by it . But that's life :shrug: .
VanessaFeltz.
15-02-2018, 06:22 PM
For me it is about removing the double standarts in different areas of life. Everyone should be able to have equal chance at being anything in life. Women shouldnt have to be afraid of being sexually abused or being oppressed or have less of a shot at getting a job just because of their gender. Also men shouldnt have to work for massive amount of hours to provide for their families (if they have one) by themselves and they shouldnt have to hide their emotions just because of their gender, there is a massive amount of male suicide instances and we have to get to bottom of it as well.
This is not just about who has it worse but it is about how to move forward as a whole, if we only look at a small portion of the problems then we are not going to move forward as a society
VanessaFeltz.
15-02-2018, 06:37 PM
Also no one should touch other people's body to harm them. It also goes for women hitting men and expecting them to "take it like a man" . Just because i said this few years ago i was attacked here by someone and he said disgusting things about me just based on my country and he said that i support those extremist ideas without knowing anything about me at all and that just goes to show the hypocrisy of the some people.
We all have prejudices, we all gravitate towards some groups and we all have bad opinions of some groups (For example as a gay male i have lots of prejudices about heterosexual people and judge them hard like all the time but i also know some of my opinions and thought progresses are just not true at all) but the imporant thing is that we all need to know our limits and grounds and not discriminate other people just because they are diffrent from us. If we remember this i think we can move forward better.
People don't laugh when male domestic abuse is brought up. Who laughs?
My wife is on a make-up community on FaceBook (used to admin, but no longer has time for it)... it now has just under 8000 members... and some of their discussions are utterly horrendous. Several of them DO laugh and joke about punching / hitting / slapping / verbally abusing their partners. Sometimes far worse, including (but not limited to) deliberately slamming hands in doors, or even deliberately backing a car over their partners foot. Often it's claimed to be in response to infidelity but that's not really the point (and quite often it's along the lines of "I *thought* he was texting someone else").
These messages get dozens of positive replies... "LOL go girl he won't do that again!!" ... relatively few saying that it's awful (because it's an all female community, and if any try to say that it's abuse they get shouted down)... but really the most worrying part, is that they get HUNDREDS of likes / loves / "crying laughing face" emoji responses.
It's not very common in normal adult relationships, no (but then, is domestic abuse in general?) but to suggest that it doesn't happen, or that it doesn't get treated as "omg can't believe u did that hilarious!" a hell of a lot in certain circles, is just incorrect. I've seen multiple horrendous threads.
I also can't imagine a male saying "LOL I slammed my girlfriend's hand in a door and ran over her foot :laugh: " ... or even just "I thought she was cheating so I slapped her in the face" ... and not being immediately (and of course, rightly) torn to shreds for it. There's a large and actually quite well documented discrepancy.
Hell I even just watched an episode of "Friends" where Joey has a "teeny" girlfriend and she keeps punching him, and he tells them all that she's hurting him and they all treat it as a joke / make fun of him as he's "a big guy and she's so little" (until she does it to Rachel and she hits her back ... heh ... at which point they conceed that her punches really were painful). Scenarios like that are really common :shrug:. Even when I was at school it was quite "accepted" for girls to hit / kick guys if they pissed them off, but DEFINITELY never the other way around.
FB comments are horrendous in general though, the s**t that people come out with on there, I really hope that most are trolling but I fear not :worry:
But anyway, why not campaign about that then, why do you expect women to do it for you? Women had to campaign for there own rights (and still do). I would stand right with you on any of your issues I agreed with
..the thing is, as Niamh has said..’who laughs’?...surely those who might laugh don’t practise or believe in feminism..?..so those aren’t any females which feminism would be concerning anyway because essentially, even though they’re females.. they have ‘opted out’ of feminism..if they really, genuinely do feel that any men’s issues are not to be taken seriously or are in any way amusing to them..
...I don’t doubt the things your wife reads on Facebook, TS...I don’t do social sites like that but I imagine it’s all quite similar to playground conversations, when you get some females all grouping together in ‘anti-male’ chats, which is something I’ve experienced over many years of ‘familiar’ playground behaviour which is practised by a few...and it is quite unpleasant, I know....but ‘seeing the whole playground’ as it were...I also know and observe that most women don’t get involved in it../..want no part of it...even if it may be just ‘jokey’, rather than...yes, I did actually run my car over his foot...I mean if someone said that and I actually thought it was serious, I would be thinking about police involvement as most women also would...most would not laugh at all...anyway, I think on Facebook and the likes, what we see and focus on is silly females who say these things ..oh, LOL that was funny...(..even though they might not think it was funny at all..)...just because it’s the nature of the Facebook beast...but what we don’t see and focus on...(..as in the playground..)...is that so many more females and I think, the majority of females who are not lolling or takin* part in...and those for me are the ‘feminists’...
...and no, men may not say similar things on Facebook of...oh, I just ran my car over her foot, or whatever, lolllsies....because their male Facebook lol people would be saying...hang on, you’ve just abused your partner, what the heck...!!!!!!....and as you say, there would be ‘tearing to shreds’....but then it could be argued, that the reason for that is because it’s always been much more typical for women to be abused by a male partner...so if a man says it on Facebook, it would be taken more seriously as a possible reality...but if a woman says it, then maybe taken that she’s joking and not being literal in her Facebook entry...?....
...I mean, a progression there has been with feminism, is that male on female domestic abuse is now acted on in a way that it wasn’t always in the past...because it was sadly quite often..’oh this is not a police matter, we can’t get involved in domestics unless that person directly reports and we see the injuries when they’re at their worst’, that type of thing...?...the reason for the progression is because male on female domestic violence has been and is more common...whereas, female on male domestic violence is very much still in its ‘infancy’ in comparison in terms of the awareness if it...?...only in recent years, the awareness is starting to grow, quite rightly...and actually, that’s when Facebook and such sites can be a positive because ‘social experiment’ vids and such the like are probably posted on there...(..and by women also, I would think...in fact, maybe more by women, I don’t know..?..)...with people laughing if a set up involved a man being physically abused but people intervening more to prevent, if it were the opposite..?...and this is a mindset that has to change and hopefully will but it’s still relatively in its infancy, with both males and females..(..feminists..)...striving for that change....I don’t know in the past days, whether males ‘lolled’ at things like...oh, I gave her a slap when she moaned at me....thinking that it wasn’t a serious statement but just ‘male bantzzzzz’...but then because those slaps are known to be very real in their common nature over time....those lols just don’t happen anymore...but these things do evolve and take time though, surely...that nervous, knee jerk laughter stops because people ‘become aware of’ the reality and seriousness of something...the thoughts begin and the laughter stops...
....anyways, I think I stopped making any sense around 500 words ago as my thoughts are a bit floaty this morning so I’ll leave it at that for any sense to be made....
..oh Joey btw, I think he wasn’t taken seriously as he should have been because his individuality is that he’s quite the drama person by nature and quite exaggerates many things, so I think that was more it as well...
no no she's a feminazi :nono:
I'm actually leaving this discussion now because it just winds me up tbh
It winds you up because it's frustrating, it's frustrating because it is going in circles and not heading towards any further understanding or equality, and that is representative of the current movement as a whole. Disjointed, frustrating and going nowhere. And yet there's a complete refusal to even consider that this might suggest that it is no longer working and that new, inclusive and creative approaches to equality are probably a good idea at this point.
Basically... Being frustrated and wound up by the discussion in itself proves the point :shrug:.
...anyways, im going to follow Niamh’s lead and leave it there with the discussion..(..for the moment..)...the circles are frustrating but I personally feel, that’s because the focus has to be one step at a time and bit by bit..rather than looking at a whole of ‘equality’...because that’s just too big a thing to look at..its a breaking down thing, I think...isolating things to make progress with so that the ‘whole’ can be tackled and progressed on eventually...like our own individual huge things we have to go through in life...we’ll never get there if we try to address the whole ‘monster’, the whole monster being complete equality..:laugh:...because that monster is just too huge a mountain to climb and reach the top of and overcome in one step...so we break off a little that can be progressed on and the bit that requires the most progression, the inequality of females that still exists...rather than going off in so many different directions that nothing gets achieved with those circles...and I have to say, although it is only my opinion...I don’t think Niamh is becoming frustrated because feminism is no longer working or that the thread is proving anything in its discussion...I think it’s a frustration that too many things are diverting off by very definition of total ‘equality’ of genders, when this is specifically about feminism and an equality that has to be reached first, as has been said....before many other things can be brought in as comparisons and unfairnesses etc...before we all ‘get to that point’...
Yes absolutely. Also, mens rights are pretty much only ever brought up in these discussions as a counter to feminism. I'm pretty sure if a poster on here started a thread on Fathers rights or any other mens issues then I'm sure members who consider themselves feminists would be supportive of those issues too, I know I would but why don't men bring them up more? and why do they only seem to be brought up to say but why don't you want rights for men? My answer to that is why don't men bring them up as they are men and would be the best people to do that?
..actually just touching back on this...it reminds me a bit of two parents having a discussion about their children...:laugh:...obviously the same, aims, the same goals etc and both equal in importance...but the conversation going..darling, can we talk about Annie, we need to talk about Annie because she is having some specific girl issues atm, she told me...
...yes, we need to talk about Charlie as well because he is also having some specific boy problems atm...
..yes of course, we’ll talk about both but can we do Annie first, me go first...?...
...but why, would that not be sexism, darling..:laugh:..
...no because someone has to talk first../..set the agenda of our talk first and I mentioned it first, I asked for this chat..so that would seem logical and essential, for one of us to speak first...and then you followed, you took that opportunity and were pleased for that opportunity for this to be a good time and place etc...
...we could both talk at the same time, you telling about Charlie and me telling about Annie, that would be fair and equal...but that would just be a mess because we wouldn’t even hear what each other was saying, let alone get to a place of addressing problems and issues ..(feminism)...and so the circles would begin, with poor Annie and Charlie both getting lost in it all and their issues continuing....
...so someone has to set the agenda of addressing it all with equality, which the ultimate goal would be but in the first instance, it would be addressing Annie’s issues and unfairnesses first, just because that was the first starting point in it all being vocalised..?...but then it led to it opening out to Charlie as well and his specific boy things..?...I mean surely that’s the only way to avoid and prevent those circles and stumbling places and stalemates...for feminism and females to lead as it were, because they have voiced through feeling inequality still to be reached...?...but all aiming for the same end goal..?....just because some or many men are not at the point of feeling they can talk openly about, yet because of some society views and judgements..?..but women or many women are completely ready..?...(feminism)...
..well, it made sense in my head anyway..
Marches
16-02-2018, 08:55 AM
Equality doesn’t have to focus on one side of the coin we can call out and work to fight injustices whenever we see them without just focusing on women!
..I know this thread/discussion is long forgotten as it were but I’ll post to myself anyway because I solved it all last night while watching Wonder Woman..:laugh:..and yeah, maybe just movie thoughts, but though...
...(some men) are all for the support and catching up of women in those areas that have needed it...(some men)..are all for the equality of in many things as well...(some men)..get a bit shaky and twittery with the ‘empowerment’ of though, the taking the lead with and in etc...so (some men) will say things like, oh lovely boobs, great skimpy outfits, I’m really loving that Wonder Woman and go girl, kick that ass...why do (some men) do that..?...because it’s a form of oppression, because it detracts from an individuals strength and character and the person who they are.. because sexism is still alive and kicking with (some men)...Wonder Woman didn’t wear that sexy outfit for any male ‘benefit’, none of the Amazons did because there were no males in their world...it was all women doing it for themselves...and in doing it they were achieving more physical strength than (some men)...
..:laugh:...so then, that’s that of that then..keep up with the feminism ladies, we’re doing ok, I think..we are Wonder Womans..:love:..
user104658
18-02-2018, 07:28 AM
........... I dunno Ammi, I kinda think WW's outfit was maybe a little bit designed for men... :joker:
...there wasn’t a man in sight though when any of the Amazon outfits were designed....slaps TS...:laugh:..
..it’s true though TS, maybe it’s a not to be taken too seriously movie etc...but (some men)..are totally supportive and on board with feminism and female equality etc...so long as (some men) get to decide when that equality has been reached, when it all becomes ‘stop’, that’s it now...and (some men) get defensive because (some men) may feel they’re being painted as some type of mysoginists, type thing...which (some men) absolutely know they’re not and far from it...(some men) absolutely adore women, they adore everything about women, they want women to feel their equality, they feel women deserve their equality and all of that etc stuff...so they’re fully supportive...but I think (some men) ‘have fear’...not fear of strong females in any way but a fear that female will lose its feminininity, lose a huge part of what (some men) adore, what (some men)..appreciate so much and respect so much and love so much so ‘change and progression’ can make (some men) apprehensive and a little nervous because (some men) love women just as they are and as it is, type thing and what society has known...thats why the resistance also and the labelling of ‘feminazi’ because with (some females), it’s harder to see the femininity that is adored so much, with shouty dungaree wearing people..:laugh:.../...more masculine identifiable things, not what (some men) feel comfortable with at all or what (some men) want to see of a representative of what they have come to love and appreciate so much...
...but it’s not a fear that needs to be felt by (some men)...the women in this thread, women like Livia, Vicky and Niamh etc for instance...are very focused feminists but are still every essence of femininity, because we all remain who and what we are...
..who would have thought Wonder Woman would have solved it all...well, it was obvious really../..goddess..:lovedup:...feminism, femininity, sexiness, great outfits etc...she has it all..as (some/most females) do...
Northern Monkey
18-02-2018, 09:47 AM
But then some feminists are jealous of the pretty girls and some feminists don’t like people’s freedom to choose their own career path if it doesn’t fit in with their own ideology.Some feminists don’t enjoy watching Darts walk on girls or F1 Grid girls or page 3 girls so some feminists want to take those opportunities away from other women who actually really enjoy those jobs.Some feminists say they want women to have the freedom to choose but only if it fits the narrative they want it to.Some feminists just want to impose a certain ideology on all of society but those feminists need to understand that not everyone fits into one homogeneous group and women are individuals with their own ideas,plans and choices.
user104658
18-02-2018, 10:14 AM
I don't disagree with you Ammi but I also agree with what NM is saying. I actually do think WW does it well because it manages to portray a powerful female character whilst still having that character be deliberately feminine / attractive / utilise sexuality. Which is so often seen as objectifying, but really, it's exactly the same with many male action stars, and it shouldn't be a problem? Why is display and admiration of physical attributes (of either sex) necessarily objectifying? And I guess the interesting question is... Why DON'T people who generally have a problem with these things seem to have a problem with WW's costume? Not that I'm saying they should.
Marches
18-02-2018, 10:21 AM
It’s cntradictory because they usually make a big deal out of media portraying women sexually saying its objectifying but if u were to make a deal out of wonder women you’re oppressing women? You can’t win
But then some feminists are jealous of the pretty girls and some feminists don’t like people’s freedom to choose their own career path if it doesn’t fit in with their own ideology.Some feminists don’t enjoy watching Darts walk on girls or F1 Grid girls or page 3 girls so some feminists want to take those opportunities away from other women who actually really enjoy those jobs.Some feminists say they want women to have the freedom to choose but only if it fits the narrative they want it to.Some feminists just want to impose a certain ideology on all of society but those feminists need to understand that not everyone fits into one homogeneous group and women are individuals with their own ideas,plans and choices.
..but it is only a ‘perspective’, or a conclusion if you like that some feminists are jealous of pretty girls, of darts walk on girls or F1 grid girls etc...it doesn’t have any logic to it but has just become a ‘society perepective’...as you say, individuals within feminism have their reasons for feeling certain things don’t ‘represent’ in a positive way, for either them or their children and it has nothing to do with any physically attractive stuff....whether that’s agreed with or not, I don’t think ‘jealousy’ comes into it..(for most women and most feminists..)...it’s more an aversion and resistance to sexism and sexist remarks because it’s felt those are not helpful in any progression...and every one of us fits our own narrative../..our own individuality...some females disregard all aspects of feminism completely and some focus on aspects where they feel the focus could help in progressions to be made etc...and that’s absolutely fine..we all focus on different things, depending on our individuality...and because of our individualism we won’t always agree when bans should be looked at or not looked at etc...but that all hazes it as well and detracts the focus, it oppresses, it suppresses...as has been said, there has to be femism before true equality can be achieved in some areas that are needed...why..?...because it’s only in more recent times that women have been given opportunities to set any agendas which have influenced legislation and changes...legislation/rules etc has been a ‘typical male job’ through most decades and most times...so now feminism is trying to reach the equal status needed for every individual....
I don't disagree with you Ammi but I also agree with what NM is saying. I actually do think WW does it well because it manages to portray a powerful female character whilst still having that character be deliberately feminine / attractive / utilise sexuality. Which is so often seen as objectifying, but really, it's exactly the same with many male action stars, and it shouldn't be a problem? Why is display and admiration of physical attributes (of either sex) necessarily objectifying? And I guess the interesting question is... Why DON'T people who generally have a problem with these things seem to have a problem with WW's costume? Not that I'm saying they should.
...but display and admiration of physical attributes isn’t objectifying so long as the character values/all strengths of a female are displayed as well, so the ‘problem’ I think is when those ‘displays’ don’t have that balance by the very ‘percieved’ nature of them, as has been through time...WW is the ultimate feminists because all of her ‘ddisplays’ are there, isn’t that the point or should be...
..I wish I hadn’t watched the movie now..:laugh:...I have to go people, you all have a good day..:love:..
waterhog
18-02-2018, 10:48 AM
There's loads of debates as to wether Courtney can be a feminist because she's a man that dresses as a woman
People think Ann saying women are equal already doesn't make her a feminist
And obviously Donal Trump recent stated he wasn't a feminist
So what does the word and movement mean to you, and by your definition are you a feminist?
it is all about woman having rights as if you go back in history it has not always been this way. delightful we have a word that is on guard to stand up and fight for the woman. I am poemmist and a bigamist but that's a different story and as a true gent I am going to sit back and let ladys speak :laugh:
user104658
18-02-2018, 11:06 AM
...but display and admiration of physical attributes isn’t objectifying so long as the character values/all strengths of a female are displayed as well, so the ‘problem’ I think is when those ‘displays’ don’t have that balance by the very ‘percieved’ nature of them, as has been through time...WW is the ultimate feminists because all of her ‘ddisplays’ are there, isn’t that the point or should be...
Her DDisplays? Ammi u perv...
Cherie
18-02-2018, 11:22 AM
But then some feminists are jealous of the pretty girls and some feminists don’t like people’s freedom to choose their own career path if it doesn’t fit in with their own ideology.Some feminists don’t enjoy watching Darts walk on girls or F1 Grid girls or page 3 girls so some feminists want to take those opportunities away from other women who actually really enjoy those jobs.Some feminists say they want women to have the freedom to choose but only if it fits the narrative they want it to.Some feminists just want to impose a certain ideology on all of society but those feminists need to understand that not everyone fits into one homogeneous group and women are individuals with their own ideas,plans and choices.
Yeah I don't really get the objectifying thing, when females get to ogle men with good bodies with no censure, yet if its the other way around it's deemed to be a terrible thing and women are seen as pieces of meat, even though they have willingly chosen to show off their attributes, I don't know how that can be seen as equality, its basically denying them the opportunity because someone somewhere has decided its not the "proper" way for a woman to be perceived, it's like we are going backward if anything
Northern Monkey
18-02-2018, 03:20 PM
..but it is only a ‘perspective’, or a conclusion if you like that some feminists are jealous of pretty girls, of darts walk on girls or F1 grid girls etc...it doesn’t have any logic to it but has just become a ‘society perepective’...as you say, individuals within feminism have their reasons for feeling certain things don’t ‘represent’ in a positive way, for either them or their children and it has nothing to do with any physically attractive stuff....whether that’s agreed with or not, I don’t think ‘jealousy’ comes into it..(for most women and most feminists..)...it’s more an aversion and resistance to sexism and sexist remarks because it’s felt those are not helpful in any progression...and every one of us fits our own narrative../..our own individuality...some females disregard all aspects of feminism completely and some focus on aspects where they feel the focus could help in progressions to be made etc...and that’s absolutely fine..we all focus on different things, depending on our individuality...and because of our individualism we won’t always agree when bans should be looked at or not looked at etc...but that all hazes it as well and detracts the focus, it oppresses, it suppresses...as has been said, there has to be femism before true equality can be achieved in some areas that are needed...why..?...because it’s only in more recent times that women have been given opportunities to set any agendas which have influenced legislation and changes...legislation/rules etc has been a ‘typical male job’ through most decades and most times...so now feminism is trying to reach the equal status needed for every individual....I’m all for total equality for men and women but to me equality doesn’t mean that we’re the same.For me it would be everyone having the choice to do what they want or what makes them happiest.For some women modelling or advertising is what they enjoy.All i see from the current iteration of feminism is feminist women trying to oppress everyone.Men and other women or anyone that doesn’t agree with their particular brand.Yes i know that there are many differing feminist views but it seems that there is a current hardline and dictatorial ideology which is becoming more mainstream and tries to demonise anybody(men and women) who don’t subscribe to the narrative.
Northern Monkey
18-02-2018, 03:22 PM
Yeah I don't really get the objectifying thing, when females get to ogle men with good bodies with no censure, yet if its the other way around it's deemed to be a terrible thing and women are seen as pieces of meat, even though they have willingly chosen to show off their attributes, I don't know how that can be seen as equality, its basically denying them the opportunity because someone somewhere has decided its not the "proper" way for a woman to be perceived, it's like we are going backward if anything
Totally agree
GoldHeart
18-02-2018, 07:28 PM
Yeah I don't really get the objectifying thing, when females get to ogle men with good bodies with no censure, yet if its the other way around it's deemed to be a terrible thing and women are seen as pieces of meat, even though they have willingly chosen to show off their attributes, I don't know how that can be seen as equality, its basically denying them the opportunity because someone somewhere has decided its not the "proper" way for a woman to be perceived, it's like we are going backward if anything
It's double standards for sure :clap1:
user104658
18-02-2018, 09:28 PM
So what we're saying is, not only is it acceptable to ogle Gal Gadot, it is actually politically incorrect NOT to ogle? :think: And if one does not have at least a slight ogle... one might not even be able to claim to be a feminist any more? Well, that sounds fair enough really.
https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/6BFD/production/_99554672_035984327-1.jpg
user104658
18-02-2018, 09:33 PM
https://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2018/02/18/femrar.jpg
Kizzy
18-02-2018, 09:56 PM
Psychologically I wonder what fantasising over strong female characters means?
Marches
18-02-2018, 10:08 PM
^ It means oppression the patriarchy are holding women down
smudgie
18-02-2018, 10:27 PM
Feminism to me is just being able to be me, I can be what I want, when I want.
Soooooooo, open them doors for me fellas, I will always smile and say thank you.:wink:
The same as when I open a door for a fella.
user104658
18-02-2018, 11:19 PM
Psychologically I wonder what fantasising over strong female characters means?
Feminism Kizzy. We already covered this. Feminism. Or, for males, you might say...
...Feminjism?
I’m all for total equality for men and women but to me equality doesn’t mean that we’re the same.For me it would be everyone having the choice to do what they want or what makes them happiest.For some women modelling or advertising is what they enjoy.All i see from the current iteration of feminism is feminist women trying to oppress everyone.Men and other women or anyone that doesn’t agree with their particular brand.Yes i know that there are many differing feminist views but it seems that there is a current hardline and dictatorial ideology which is becoming more mainstream and tries to demonise anybody(men and women) who don’t subscribe to the narrative.
...but that’s the thing though, NM...we’re not ‘the same’, that sameness and that equality still hasn’t been reached yet...:laugh:..that ‘level playing field’, as it were, in things that have been in past times, ‘male dominated’ in decisions of the roles (some males) have ‘allowed’ females in, less participants of equality and more ‘faces’ and ‘poster girls’, type thing...eye candy stuff....so it’s still coming back to what TS said, that equality has to be reached first, which feminism is aiming for...so that everyone does have equal choices ...feminism isn’t against things like modelling or advertising or any individual choice that people should have...it just wants to change perceptions of ‘objectifying’ and judgements because of a chosen profession, feminism is trying to prevent judgements based on what a person might chose to be in life in their job...and sadly there are some jobs, which still attract judgements from what is seen in media and society views...oh, she’s a model, surely she is used to being objectified, surely she must like it also, why didn’t she question this or that ...so if a guy was to be inappropriate in behaviour, can she not ‘handle’ that, why is she fussing about it../...that type of thing is often read in media stuff and also very strongly still felt by (some people), sadly...
...and I actually don’t think ‘hardline feminism’ is becoming mainstream...no feminist, either male or female that I know is ‘hardline’ in their views and thoughts...but that’s interesting as well though, NM...because maybe (some people) are looking for hardline, so that negativity can be attached to feminism, to detract from the positive ‘movement it is’....
Her DDisplays? Ammi u perv...
...ooops..:laugh:...what can I say TS, yes I do fully appreciate all physical attributes, whatever the gender...so yeah, I accept that perviness, I embrace it...
...this darn iPad though, I thought it was meant to autocorrect and know what was meant to be typed....
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