New Zealand planning to cheat in Commonwealth Games

[Vicky.]

Look at this, its just nonsense

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/99233155/new-zealand-transgender-weightlifter-creates-uneven-playing-field-says-australias-weightlifting-chief

https://resources.stuff.co.nz/content/dam/images/1/h/z/0/p/3/image.related.StuffLandscapeSixteenByNine.620x349. 1n2wsj.png/1511549253956.jpg

Australia's weightlifting chief says New Zealand's selection of transgender athlete Laurel Hubbard will create an uneven playing field at next year's Commonwealth Games.

Hubbard, who will compete in the 90kg-plus division on the Gold Coast, will be the first transgender athlete to represent New Zealand at a Commonwealth Games.

As Gavin Hubbard, the 39-year-old was a national junior record-holder in the male 105kg class before she transitioned into a woman in her mid-30s.

Rival athletes complained that she had an unfair advantage after she won gold at the Australian Open this year, lifting 123kg in the snatch and 145kg in the clean and jerk.

He will be competing against women.

This is happening in many areas of sport, but is the Commonwealth Games well watched? I don't really watch any sport so don't know. If a load of people do watch it, then it will open a lot of peoples eyes to how ridiculous this whole thing is. And with a bit of luck, stop it and make womens sport fair again.

Trained as a man, has a mans muscle mass, a mans body...even if he has lowered testosterone (which I am not sure he has) he still has a huge unfair advantage in my eyes.

But just to check if its me who is being unfair, can people answer the poll? :suspect:

[Amy Jade]

That does seem very unfair to be honest

[Mystic Mock]

Is he/she pre-op or post-op?

[Jordan.]

It does seem a bit unfair in this case but it's also not inconceivable that a woman can be just as good or better than a man in their respective sport.

[Cherie]

Of course this is unfair, has there ever been a female to male trans try to compete in a male environment?

[Vicky.]

Is he/she pre-op or post-op?
No-op.

But tbh, even post op doesn't change the advantages as far as I can see..even male and female skeletons are different..and obviously that can't be changed no matter how many artificial hormones you pump into yourself. It matters even more in something like weightlifting. And even moreso when you know this guy trained and competed as a guy before deciding he was a woman...

It does seem a bit unfair in this case but it's also not inconceivable that a woman can be just as good or better than a man in their respective sport.
A woman could be better, but its unlikely. Anything thats speed or strength a bloke is going to have an advantage. Look at the difference in the 100m sprint, for example

https://www.olympic.org/rio-2016/athletics/100m-men
https://www.olympic.org/rio-2016/athletics/100m-women

And look at the difference in weightlifting also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting

Yes some women can be very good, but men have a huge biological advantage over them. Hence sex segregated sport, else women would never even place.

Of course this is unfair, has there ever been a female to male trans try to compete in a male environment?

I don't know, but if there was the FtM would not stand a chance really. Same biological reasons.

I genuinely feel like MtF do it simply to cheat as they know they have an advantage. I don't think it should be allowed. I do think when people watch this they will see how unfair it is. No one is realistically going to see this person and think 'oh yes, shes a strong woman, she deserved that win' as they will see..a bloke. Competing with women. Maybe other countries will click on and do the same...its the only way to make it fair, but its still unfair on both the females competing, and the female who did not make the 'female team' because a guy did instead,

[Niamh.]

It's ridiculous and completely unfair, womens rights taking a back seat again

[Vicky.]

There again, have been no real studies on this either. There was one which checked peoples timings as they got further into transition (and they did go down over time), but did not compare against actual female controls, so is pretty useless. And it was only done on 7 people too.

There was also this

http://www.eje-online.org/content/151/4/425.short

Androgen deprivation of M-F decreased muscle mass, increasing the overlap with untreated F-M, but mean muscle mass remained significantly higher in M-F than in F-M. Androgen administration to F-M increased muscle mass without inducing an advantage over nontreated M-F. The conclusion is that androgen deprivation in M-F increases the overlap in muscle mass with women but does not reverse it, statistically. The question of whether reassigned M-F can fairly compete with women depends on what degree of arbitrariness one wishes to accept, keeping in mind, for instance, that similar blood testosterone levels in men have profoundly different biologic effects on muscle properties, rendering competition in sports intrinsically a matter of how nature endows individuals for this competition.

IMO it goes without saying that average male physiology gives male people a large advantage though surely. And lets be honest, laurels physiology is way above average, even for men.

And given there have not actually been any studies into it, its hugely unfair to just chuck them in with the women. I am not saying they cannot compete if they want to, but the likes of this guy...he could compete with the men. Infact, transwomen should compete with men because of biological advantage, and also transmen should compete with men if they are actually transitioning(as they are doping). Neither transperson would actually have any advantage over men so it should not matter to men at all. I would think though, that competing would suddenly be less attractive if transwomen could not compete against women, as they would not be basically guaranteed a high placing and in all likelihood, would be very low down the male rankings. If they don;t want to do this, then they don't compete. People can't compete at professional level for a variety of reasons...I could not compete as I am not fit enough :shrug:

Oh, there are also male people fighting female people in MMA. And half of Irans womens football team is male (I suspect there are so many transwomen there, as being gay is illegal. Being gay while saying you are a woman is fine though). There are more, but those 2 spring to mind immediately.

[Niamh.]

There again, have been no real studies on this either. There was one which checked peoples timings as they got further into transition (and they did go down over time), but did not compare against actual female controls, so is pretty useless. And it was only done on 7 people too.

There was also this

http://www.eje-online.org/content/151/4/425.short



IMO it goes without saying that average male physiology gives male people a large advantage though surely. And lets be honest, laurels physiology is way above average, even for men.

And given there have not actually been any studies into it, its hugely unfair to just chuck them in with the women. I am not saying they cannot compete if they want to, but the likes of this guy...he could compete with the men. Infact, transwomen should compete with men because of biological advantage, and also transmen should compete with men if they are actually transitioning(as they are doping). Neither transperson would actually have any advantage over men so it should not matter to men at all. I would think though, that competing would suddenly be less attractive if transwomen could not compete against women, as they would not be basically guaranteed a high placing and in all likelihood, would be very low down the male rankings. If they don;t want to do this, then they don't compete. People can't compete at professional level for a variety of reasons...I could not compete as I am not fit enough :shrug:

Oh, there are also male people fighting female people in MMA. And half of Irans womens football team is male (I suspect there are so many transwomen there, as being gay is illegal. Being gay while saying you are a woman is fine though). There are more, but those 2 spring to mind immediately.

Do you watch any of Joe Rogans pod casts, (he talks about lots of things but is mainly an MMA guy) He went crazy over this

[Vicky.]

Do you watch any of Joe Rogans pod casts, (he talks about lots of things but is mainly an MMA guy) He went crazy over this

No. I have read the account of a woman that Fox fought though, saying she had never felt strength like it and such. Which is..obvious. Men and women have vastly different strengths. I have watched Fox fighting too and it really does look like a bloke beating a woman. Which is what it is, regardless of any cosmetic surgery thats been had.

I always thought I was fairly strong for a woman and could fight off most blokes if needs be. Until a tiny skinny male friend of mine slammed me against the wall (joking on mind, not seriously) and held me there with no effort at all.

Since then I have asked Gavin to use his proper strength on me (he is a fairly big bloke and I was curious, after that experience with tiny dude), and it scared the crap out of me.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/transgender-female-boxer-gives-female-opponent-concussion-breaks-her-eye-so

In addition to the damaged orbital bone that required seven staples, Brents received a concussion. In a post-fight interview this week, she told Whoa TV that "I've never felt so overpowered ever in my life."

“I’ve fought a lot of women and have never felt the strength that I felt in a fight as I did that night. I can’t answer whether it’s because [he] was born a man or not, because I’m not a doctor,” she stated. “I can only say, I’ve never felt so overpowered ever in my life, and I am an abnormally strong female in my own right. ”

His “grip was different,” she added. “I could usually move around in the clinch against...females but couldn’t move at all in Fox’s clinch

And this^ is even after years of hormones, and SRS. Yes lowering testosterone levels will cause loss of strength, but still stronger than female people. And still the advantage of a male frame.

Edit ahh I see that Rogan bloke is actually mentioned in that

Likewise, last year, UFC announcer Joe Rogan made his opinion unambiguously and graphically clear, saying on his podcast that a transgendered man would "have all the bone structure that comes with” being a man. “You have bigger hands, you have bigger shoulder joints."

[Niamh.]

No. I have read the account of a woman that Fox fought though, saying she had never felt strength like it and such. Which is..obvious. Men and women have vastly different strengths. I have watched Fox fighting too and it really does look like a bloke beating a woman. Which is what it is, regardless of any cosmetic surgery thats been had.

I always thought I was fairly strong for a woman and could fight off most blokes if needs be. Until a tiny skinny male friend of mine slammed me against the wall (joking on mind, not seriously) and held me there with no effort at all.

Since then I have asked Gavin to use his proper strength on me (he is a fairly big bloke and I was curious, after that experience with tiny dude), and it scared the crap out of me.

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/transgender-female-boxer-gives-female-opponent-concussion-breaks-her-eye-so



And this^ is even after years of hormones, and SRS.

Edit ahh I see that Rogan bloke is actually mentioned in that

Ovs0tJEkWMI

[Livia]

So how does this abomination compare with this? [from August 2016]:

Experts question the “gender tests” — examining genitals, chromosomes, and testosterone levels — required of some of the world's best female athletes.

Last summer, 19-year old sprinter Dutee Chand’s ability to compete in the Rio Olympics was in limbo. Her fate was not tied up in her race time, but rather a controversial rule for Olympians that said female athletes could be disqualified if their natural testosterone levels were too high. Chand’s were.

The rationale behind the rule was that women with high testosterone fall outside the limits of “normal” female biology, giving them an unfair advantage. If they wanted to compete as women, the rule stated, they would need to take hormones or undergo invasive surgeries. Otherwise, they could compete against the men.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/sex-testing-olympians?utm_term=.aaRR4ERJl#.uoaW40WKz

Dutee Chand's case, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been heard yet. So there are rules against born women with high testosterone levels, but having testosterone AND a cock? No problem.

[Vicky.]

So how does this abomination compare with this? [from August 2016]:

Experts question the “gender tests” — examining genitals, chromosomes, and testosterone levels — required of some of the world's best female athletes.

Last summer, 19-year old sprinter Dutee Chand’s ability to compete in the Rio Olympics was in limbo. Her fate was not tied up in her race time, but rather a controversial rule for Olympians that said female athletes could be disqualified if their natural testosterone levels were too high. Chand’s were.

The rationale behind the rule was that women with high testosterone fall outside the limits of “normal” female biology, giving them an unfair advantage. If they wanted to compete as women, the rule stated, they would need to take hormones or undergo invasive surgeries. Otherwise, they could compete against the men.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/azeenghorayshi/sex-testing-olympians?utm_term=.aaRR4ERJl#.uoaW40WKz

Dutee Chand's case, as far as I'm aware, hasn't been heard yet. So there are rules against born women with high testosterone levels, but having testosterone AND a cock? No problem.
I think they do have to lower their testosterone levels. But the level it has to be lowered to is still 3x higher than what average females have. And obviously they have the advantage of years and years of high testosterone levels.

Niamh just finished that Rogan video, my god he is annoyed :laugh: Don't blame him mind. Surely anyone can tell this is massively unfair.

[Niamh.]

I think they do have to lower their testosterone levels. But the level it has to be lowered to is still 3x higher than what average females have. And obviously they have the advantage of years and years of high testosterone levels.

Niamh just finished that Rogan video, my god he is annoyed :laugh: Don't blame him mind. Surely anyone can tell this is massively unfair.

He's really good, i watch alot of his stuff. Anyone who doesn't see this as unfair clearly thinks womens rights are bottom of every pile. I mean it's unfair in the example you gave here with the weightlifting but it's down right irresponsible and dangerous in combat sports like MMA

[Livia]

I felt pretty positive about all the equality stuff you know, especially lately with all the stuff about commemorating the suffragettes. But since Vicky opened my eyes to all this, it's made me think more deeply about women's place as dictated by men. I mean... we have a great women's football team. Who do they make their manager? A strong successful woman? No. A man who has in the past casually posted sexist tweets... but he's sorry now, so we gave him the top job in women's football. Now you don't even have to be a women to take part in women's sport! What a ****ing mess.

[Vicky.]

Sorry for killing your optimism :laugh:

I did think we were finally getting somewhere too. And them bam. This huge pushback against all rights that women have fought for for themselves..with mass support for removing those fought for rights/spaces. Kind of depressing.

[Cherie]

No-op.

But tbh, even post op doesn't change the advantages as far as I can see..even male and female skeletons are different..and obviously that can't be changed no matter how many artificial hormones you pump into yourself. It matters even more in something like weightlifting. And even moreso when you know this guy trained and competed as a guy before deciding he was a woman...


A woman could be better, but its unlikely. Anything thats speed or strength a bloke is going to have an advantage. Look at the difference in the 100m sprint, for example

https://www.olympic.org/rio-2016/athletics/100m-men
https://www.olympic.org/rio-2016/athletics/100m-women

And look at the difference in weightlifting also

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Olympic_records_in_weightlifting

Yes some women can be very good, but men have a huge biological advantage over them. Hence sex segregated sport, else women would never even place.



I don't know, but if there was the FtM would not stand a chance really. Same biological reasons.

I genuinely feel like MtF do it simply to cheat as they know they have an advantage. I don't think it should be allowed. I do think when people watch this they will see how unfair it is. No one is realistically going to see this person and think 'oh yes, shes a strong woman, she deserved that win' as they will see..a bloke. Competing with women. Maybe other countries will click on and do the same...its the only way to make it fair, but its still unfair on both the females competing, and the female who did not make the 'female team' because a guy did instead,

and if this isn't happening which I am pretty sure it isn't this would confirm that MtF really do have the edge when it comes to most competitive sports

[Tom4784]

I don't think it's right for trans women to compete with other women in physical sports, they will always have the advantage. I'm very much for trans rights but I think you have to accept that in certain situations you have to acknowledge the differences and the advantages between the two.