Florida School Shooting - 17 confirmed dead

[andybigbro]

At least 17 people were dead after a 19-year-old former student opened fire at a South Florida high school on Wednesday afternoon, officials said.

The suspect was identified as Nikolaus Cruz, a former student who had been expelled from Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said. He said 14 to 18 other peopole were injured in addition to the 17 people who were killed.

Florida school shooting suspect 'approximately 18 years old', sheriff says

The suspect "was taken into custody about an hour after he left Stoneman Douglas after he committed this horrific, detestable act," Israel said. Federal and local authorities told NBC News there was no indication that the gunman had an accomplice or accomplices.

Read more here: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-respond-shooting-parkland-florida-high-school-n848101

[arista]

[17 in Florida high school shooting

The suspected gunman, named by an official as Nikolaus Cruz,
is a former student and was arrested near the school, police say.]

https://news.sky.com/story/twenty-hurt-in-shooting-at-florida-school-11250721

https://e3.365dm.com/18/02/1096x616/skynews-florida-school_4231351.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180214220444


Sad day in Florida

[RileyH]

</3

[andybigbro]

It’s so horrendous. The poor kids and the families of the children dead :sad:

They need to get rid of guns. It’s ridiculous! :mad:

[smudgie]

Sorry, I didn’t see this when I posted my thread..I did look.
Can mods delete mine please.:blush:

This is the 18th school shooting this year in America.
That’s roughly 3 each school week.
Total madness.:sad:

[Rob!]

Jesus :(

"This is not the time for that conversation."

[Robertocarlo]

Terrible. What is it with American school kids these days? I remember a time when we went to school and if there was a falling out then it was sorted out with a fight at the school gate?

[LaLaLand]

Just so awful.

[arista]

It’s so horrendous. The poor kids and the families of the children dead :sad:

They need to get rid of guns. It’s ridiculous! :mad:


Sadly America
was built on guns
never gonna change.

[LaLaLand]

Saddens and shocks me that so, so many years after the whole Columbine incident we're no different or better off in regards to guns in America. In fact, probably worse.

[arista]

https://d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/7svrGlSvQLuXLL0WfP1h_i%20front%20page%2015%20Feb.j pg?bypass-service-worker

[Vicky.]

Oh god :(

RIP to those who have died, and quick recoveries to those injured

[Macie Lightfoot]

"Why get rid of guns when we can just get rid of no gun zones" --Conservatives after the 18th school shooting in the past 45 days.

[Jessica.]

It was done by a white guy called Nikolas Cruz and there is outrage from American people of all ethnicities because they don't think he can identify as white with a "hispanic" surname. :umm2: Why is nobody still accepting that the main problem is just Americans in general having access to guns and it's nothing to do with ethnic background. :skull:

[Alf]

According to a student, in an interview, he said people predicted that he would do that, and the students used to joke about how he'd be the one to do something like that.

[Maru]

I read this when it broke before there was a count. Someone also attempted to enter the NSA unauthorized today and ended up having their vehicle's windshield shot through... bad news day.

[Ninastar]

Awful. Just about crying reading all the updates

[Eddie.]

WTF RIP </3

[-Sue-]

awful and heartbreaking for all the innocent victims and their families our thoughts and prayers are with you all

[Liberty4eva]

Sadly America
was built on guns
never go change.

Yep.
https://cdn3.volusion.com/3fyq2.mno9q/v/vspfiles/photos/HAFLG002-2.jpg?1423145343

[Ammi]

...this is so, so sad..so tragic..:sad:...those poor helpless young people and what their families are going through right now, awful...’little was known about Cruz’ and yet the gun laws allowed him to be so easily armed with a rifle, someone who little was known about...its, so wrong, the American gun laws are so wrong...

[Ammi]

Sadly America
was built on guns
never go change.

..well then it should be rebuild without so many guns, Arista..with a much stricter control..because this ‘building’ isn’t working for so many grieving families...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its just a symptom of a different culture and society, pretty pointless trying to judge it by our own. Its the price Americans pay for their gun freedom and most are happy to pay it - hence all the shootings/

[Ammi]

..but isn’t that the ‘vogue’ of society atm...to ‘judge cultures by our own’...and to ‘judge’ what is and what is not needed ‘by our own’...what isn’t needed (imo..)...is a leader who absolutely in his judgement, supports, rather than addresses the deaths in his country that may have been avoided...those 17 young people who have lost their lives, may have not wished for any type of ‘gun freedom’ but they and their families have paid very, very dearly for the ease of control which had been forced on them...

[Alf]

..but isn’t that the ‘vogue’ of society atm...to ‘judge cultures by our own’...and to ‘judge’ what is and what is not needed ‘by our own’...what isn’t needed (imo..)...is a leader who absolutely in his judgement, supports, rather than addresses the deaths in his country that may have been avoided...those 17 young people who have lost their lives, may have not wished for any type of ‘gun freedom’ but they and their families have paid very, very dearly for the ease of control which had been forced on them...More people were killed in the Manchester arena massacre and there wasn't a gun in sight, he used a bomb, bombs are illeagal, but that didn't stop him, They were killed by a lunatic criminal.

86 people were killed in Nice when a truck drove into people, trucks are legal in France, did you call for this deadly weapon to be made illeagal? They were killed by a lunatic criminal.

And these children were also killed by a lunatic criminal.


A far better argument would be, better security in schools. Give jobs to veterans and ex police as security roaming the school corridors. Teachers armed and trained. Just that would prevent anybody from even attempting doing this sort of thing in the first place. The alternative is try and take the peoples guns of them, and you'll get civil war.

[Ammi]

..so we remove the very essence and ethos of a school environment, then..?...the safety that should be there for the students and felt by the students..that whole ‘nurturing’ environment is taken away and arms are taken up by school staff, we create and encourage hostility and weaponry as the ‘solution’..?...we become the very opposite of what should be in any school...I’m not ‘arguing’ or creating an argument at all, Alf...

[Cal.]

Oh no

[Ammi]

More people were killed in the Manchester arena massacre and there wasn't a gun in sight, he used a bomb, bombs are illeagal, but that didn't stop him, They were killed by a lunatic criminal.

86 people were killed in Nice when a truck drove into people, trucks are legal in France, did you call for this deadly weapon to be made illeagal? They were killed by a lunatic criminal.

And these children were also killed by a lunatic criminal.


A far better argument would be, better security in schools. Give jobs to veterans and ex police as security roaming the school corridors. Teachers armed and trained. Just that would prevent anybody from even attempting doing this sort of thing in the first place. The alternative is try and take the peoples guns of them, and you'll get civil war.

..yes, there are not always guns involved, I know...in tragic losses of lives like this...but there are some things that are more preventable with closely looked at and tighter controls in gun laws...

[Eddie.]

The American government always says they will do something, but they end up not doing it and they NEVER learn from their mistakes, it's a shame that due to their actions, many innocent and maybe young lives are lost...

[Kazanne]

Unfortunately we don't seem shocked over these incidents anymore it happens so often,what the answer is ? I don't know,there will always be lunatics that want their 15 mins of fame in this way, Thoughts with the victims and injured also their families,terrible to see this on the news again.

[Tom4784]

Difference between bombs and these mass shootings is that it's hard to prevent the former, anyone can get the ingredients to make a bomb and you can only foil plots like those if the person attempting them is particularly stupid.

These mass shootings however are different, in these shootings, it's almost always done with a gun that was purchased legally and would have been easily prevented if the right checks were put in place.

You'll never get rid of guns in America, it's too ingrained in the culture but assault rifles and weaponry does not need to be sold to the public and they should do more to check who is actually buying these guns in question. Most Gun owners in the US will never have to use their weapons outside of a controlled environment, it's not them that should be worried about the idea of Gun control because sensible owners shouldn't be affected but you got the NRA with all it's sway preventing anything from happening and then you've got the government who profits too much from the Gun industry to truly ever want to restrict it in any way. They are more than happy with the scores of dead children just as long as the NRA get to play with their guns and the tax money keeps rolling in.

[GoldHeart]

If anything Trump encouraged this, mr gun nut himself :crazy: .
In America these gun massacres / shootings are pretty much all the time, it's got to the stage where we're not shocked anymore, we're just more angry and tired with it all as we know nothing will ever change .

Too many Americans love their guns and seem to think that's the answer to everything, nearly everyone in the states owns a gun just for the sake of it . They go to the park with their kids while carrying a gun :bored: .

They go shopping to the supermarket and guns are on display, it's a surreal mess !.

17 lose their lives because once again a deranged lunatic had access to guns and decides to go on a killing spree , no action will be taken. This will continue to happen.

Is anywhere safe or protected in America seriously !?? . The place of trigger happy .

[-Sue-]

More people were killed in the Manchester arena massacre and there wasn't a gun in sight, he used a bomb, bombs are illeagal, but that didn't stop him, They were killed by a lunatic criminal.

86 people were killed in Nice when a truck drove into people, trucks are legal in France, did you call for this deadly weapon to be made illeagal? They were killed by a lunatic criminal.

And these children were also killed by a lunatic criminal.


A far better argument would be, better security in schools. Give jobs to veterans and ex police as security roaming the school corridors. Teachers armed and trained. Just that would prevent anybody from even attempting doing this sort of thing in the first place. The alternative is try and take the peoples guns of them, and you'll get civil war.

So you want MORE guns in schools? :shrug::nono:
Australia had the balls to sort out their gun problem now it's america's turn to stop pretending that 'daily gun deaths & mass shootings' are just normal life in america! where does it end..?? more guns?? more ammo? more security? with NRA members or people that own many guns all saying about their 2nd amendment right .. blah blah blah.. (sure have a handgun & hunting rifle if you must to shoot wabbits during hunting season or protect whats yours home family etc) but should HIGH POWERED guns be so readily available? that have cartridges that fire up to 100 bullets+ ?? the wish is no noone can get them but sadly they have..

Im talking do some not all americans really need 50 guns rocket launchers and many other insane weapons that should be only available if you are in the forces and diployed....

Today you hear blame schools? blame FBI? blame people 'that knew' - blame he was a nut job.. etc how about we blame many things... guns being readily available being just one of them

It's time america stop wanting it both ways you can't have a 2nd amendment right when such insane weaponry is readily available without any form of
gun control!! and not protect people in the country from those terrible people that do unthinkable things to innocent people...

we protect money in banks.. with walls - locks - security - safe etc so why not schools? business? government buildings? post office? etc...are children the innocent victims in grown ups lack of ability to remove their heads from their arse and do something about america's insane gun problem??

(disclaimer i am sure there are some good responsible gun owners over the pond)
makes me angry and upset - as a parent I am sure I would home school if I lived over the pond..


PS on a lighter note..I have a home security system.. a baseball bat and run at them naked (eek mental image sorry)

[Crimson Dynamo]

"This debate has become just one part of America’s self-defeating and circular culture wars. To liberal New Yorkers and assorted East Coasters, gun owners can be put in the same categories as evangelical Christians who believe in creationism and who oppose abortion and feminism, while law-abiding gun owners grow ever more resentful of the liberal elite who seek to leave ordinary citizens at the mercy of gangsters and villains who will always carry and use guns, whatever the legal framework currently in effect.

Neither of these stereotypes is wholly accurate, but neither is prepared to shift ground. The more consensual approach, the more conciliatory language demanded for this crisis – and it is a crisis – is as distant today as it has ever been, perhaps even more so. American politics has led this great nation to a point where it is utterly, perhaps irreconcilably, divided, on guns – as in much else."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/15/americas-gun-crisis-will-never-end-liberals-learn-make-peace/

[montblanc]

i'm so tired of this happening in my country

[-Sue-]

i'm so tired of this happening in my country

:hug: I am so sorry such terrible innocent loss I truly hope somethings changes over there soon we live in hope

[Tom4784]

"This debate has become just one part of America’s self-defeating and circular culture wars. To liberal New Yorkers and assorted East Coasters, gun owners can be put in the same categories as evangelical Christians who believe in creationism and who oppose abortion and feminism, while law-abiding gun owners grow ever more resentful of the liberal elite who seek to leave ordinary citizens at the mercy of gangsters and villains who will always carry and use guns, whatever the legal framework currently in effect.

Neither of these stereotypes is wholly accurate, but neither is prepared to shift ground. The more consensual approach, the more conciliatory language demanded for this crisis – and it is a crisis – is as distant today as it has ever been, perhaps even more so. American politics has led this great nation to a point where it is utterly, perhaps irreconcilably, divided, on guns – as in much else."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/02/15/americas-gun-crisis-will-never-end-liberals-learn-make-peace/

What a hypocritical article. He tries to make out that it's a problem on both sides but the whole point of the article is to blame the left for it. Trash article.

[lewis111]

I've said It after every one of these mass shootings but the politicians who vote against stricter gun laws or even vote for less gun control in Ameriva are partly responsible for the loss of 17 lives today and should be punished accordingly
If you are ok with the current gun laws in America then you are happy to constantly see children be gunned down and killed - simple as

[Cherie]

I don't understand the mentality . ..access to guns aside, kids get suspended from school or bullied every day of the week in every country in the world, why do American kids react in this way...every kid has access to knives but they don't go on the rampage with them after a suspension

[-Sue-]

the 'right to bear arms' has a lot to answer for!

when the constitution was written didn't they use a musket - gun powder and could load a single pellet(or whatever it was called) ? perhaps it's time for a rethink!

[Crimson Dynamo]

I don't understand the mentality . ..access to guns aside, kids get suspended from school or bullied every day of the week in every country in the world, why do American kids react in this way...every kid has access to knives but they don't go on the rampage with them after a suspension

the attraction of fame and the attraction of what has gone before

ingrained in the USA psyche

[Ramsay]

The fact that people still defend the gun laws baffles my mind

[-Sue-]

The fact that people still defend the gun laws baffles my mind

I feel the same way! It angers me that despite numerous shootings and it continues to happen people in the states have done nothing to try and make things safer! not a single thing...

[Crimson Dynamo]

as I have said many times before people see this as the price one pays for liberal gun laws and they are happy to pay it in a country of 300,000,000 people

[GoldHeart]

The fact that people still defend the gun laws baffles my mind

These gun enthusiasts have no brain cells , they'll defend their pointless right to own guns till the end of time,things will never change.
The fact a student can go into his own school and massacre kids & teachers like it's the norm just makes us sick & tired of it all :rant: .

There's zero gun control in America, it's far too easily to own a gun it's scary .

[montblanc]

:hug: I am so sorry such terrible innocent loss I truly hope somethings changes over there soon we live in hope

thank you x

These gun enthusiasts have no brain cells , they'll defend their pointless right to own guns till the end of time,things will never change.
The fact a student can go into his own school and massacre kids & teachers like it's the norm just makes us sick & tired of it all :rant: .

There's zero gun control in America, it's far too easily to own a gun it's scary .

i'm not even joking we can go to Walmart (a supermarket) and buy guns it's horrific

[Niamh.]

The fact that people still defend the gun laws baffles my mind

yeah or more guns is the answer to these incidents ffs but yeah not even going to bother repeating the same old s**t, nothing will change, too much money involved now

[GoldHeart]

thank you x



i'm not even joking we can go to Walmart (a supermarket) and buy guns it's horrific

:umm2: I know it's disturbing AF , families grocery shopping can literally pick up a weapon .

Just for the sake of it people carry guns over there ,it's insane. And it's unhealthy that people feel the need to carry a gun while with their kids in the park :facepalm: .

[arista]

One big teacher (sadly died)
took the bullets, saving pupils.

A Great Hero

[Maru]

https://i.imgur.com/cxn4MS7.jpg

Source: TMZ (http://www.tmz.com/2018/02/15/florida-shooting-nikolas-cruz-trained-florida-white-supremacist-group-rof/)

https://i.imgur.com/ikJ8fv0.jpg

Source: https://republicofflorida.wordpress.com/

Nikolas Cruz, Florida shooting suspect: Guns, depression and a life in trouble
https://www.facebook.com/markberman
11 ～ 13 分

Nikolas Cruz, 19, is the man suspected of fatally shooting at least 17 people at a South Florida high school on Feb. 14. Here's what you should know. (Amber Ferguson/The Washington Post)

He had been getting treatment at a mental health clinic, but he had stopped. He had been expelled from school for disciplinary problems. Many of his acquaintances had cut ties in part because of his unnerving Instagram posts and reports that he liked shooting animals. His father died a few years ago, and his mother, among the only people with whom he was close, died around Thanksgiving. He was living at a friend’s house. He was showing signs of depression.

And Nikolas Cruz, 19, had a fascination with guns. He owned an AR-15 assault-style rifle.

Although school officials, students and others who knew him were aware that something was off with Cruz, it is unclear whether anyone had a full picture of what was building within him in recent months. Had everyone who knew of his struggles sat down in a room and compared notes about his recent past, perhaps an alarm would have sounded ahead of what emerged on Valentine’s Day, when Cruz allegedly walked into a suburban South Florida high school and carried out one of the nation’s deadliest school shootings.

[‘I’m not really shocked’: Florida high school prepared for the worst. Then it happened.]

“Weird” was the word students had used to describe Cruz since middle school. At first “it was nothing alarming,” said Dakota Mutchler, 17, who attended middle school with Cruz, adding that there was something “a little off about him.” But that was it — for a while.

Read more:

As Cruz transitioned into high school, he “started progressively getting a little more weird,” Mutchler told The Washington Post. Cruz, he said, was selling knives out of a lunchbox, posting on Instagram about guns and killing animals, and eventually “going after one of my friends, threatening her.”

On Wednesday night, Mutchler recalled Cruz as an increasingly frightening figure, being suspended from school repeatedly, before he was expelled last year. “When someone is expelled,” Mutchler said, “you don’t really expect them to come back. But, of course, he came back.”

He came back to Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School with a vengeance, according to the Broward County sheriff, who identified Cruz as the gunman who marched through the school with an AR-15 assault-style rifle, killing 17 people and wounding at least 15 others. He has been booked on 17 counts of premeditated murder.

Police arrested Nikolas Cruz, who is suspected of killing 17 people in a shooting rampage at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on Feb. 14. (Reuters)

“I think everyone in this school had it in the back of their mind that if anyone was supposed to do it, it was most likely going to be him,” Mutchler said.

Mutchler spoke as he stood outside a Marriott Hotel where families and students had been told to gather so they could find one another and go home. Still looking dazed, the young man also spoke with the benefit of hindsight.

Math teacher Jim Gard, who taught Cruz at Stoneman Douglas last year before he was expelled, said that at some point the school administration sent out a note with a vague suggestion of concern, asking teachers to keep an eye on Cruz. “I don’t recall the exact message,” Gard said, “but it was an email notice they sent out.”

“We were told last year that he wasn’t allowed on campus with a backpack on him,” Gard told the Miami Herald. “There were problems with him last year threatening students, and I guess he was asked to leave campus.”

Broward County Mayor Beam Furr told CNN that Cruz had been receiving treatment at a mental health clinic for a while but that he had not been to the clinic for more than a year. “It wasn’t like there wasn’t concern for him,” Furr told CNN. “We try to keep our eyes out on those kids who aren’t connected. … In this case, we didn’t find a way to connect with this kid.”

Cruz apparently fell off the radar, but he was having a rough time.

Roger Cruz — who along with his wife, Lynda, had adopted Nikolas — died of a heart attack several years ago. Then in November, Lynda Cruz, 68, died of pneumonia, according to her sister-in-law, Barbara Kumbatovic.

With her death, Cruz and his half-brother lost one of the only relatives they had left, according to family members and friends.

“Lynda was very close to them,” Kumbatovic told The Post. “She put a lot of time and effort into those boys, trying to give them a good life and upbringing.”

One boy was quiet and seemed to stay out of trouble, but Nikolas kept having problems at school, Kumbatovic said.

“Lynda dealt with it like most parents did. She was probably too good to him,” Kumbatovic said. “She was a lovely woman. She was a hard-working woman. She made a beautiful home for them. She put a lot of effort and time into their schooling, their recreation, whatever they needed. She was a good parent. And she went over and above, because she needed to compensate for being a single parent.”

“I don’t think it had anything to do with his upbringing,” she said. “It could have been the loss of his mom. I don’t know.”

Neighbors told the Sun-Sentinel that police were called out repeatedly to deal with complaints about Cruz. Shelby Speno said he was seen shooting at chickens owned by a resident. Malcolm Roxburgh told the Sun-Sentinel that Cruz took a dislike to the pigs another family kept as pets. “He sent over his dog … to try to attack them.”

After Lynda Cruz’s death, Nikolas Cruz and his half-brother stayed with friends in Lake Worth, in Palm Beach County. Then he asked a former classmate from Stoneman Douglas High School whether he could move in with him. Cruz’s friend and his friend’s parents agreed and opened their home to him, said Jim Lewis, an attorney representing the family who took in Cruz. “It wasn’t working out” in Lake Worth, Lewis said.

“The family brought him into their home,” Lewis told The Post. “They got him a job at a local dollar store. They didn’t see anything that would suggest any violence. He was depressed, maybe a little quirky. But they never saw anything violent. … He was just a little depressed and seemed to be working through it.”

Analysis | More than 50 years of U.S. mass shootings: The victims, sites, killers and weapons

Those who were acquainted with Cruz through school, such as Mutchler, had seen enough to disturb them in recent years.

Joshua Charo, 16, a former classmate during their freshman year, told the Miami Herald that all Cruz would talk about “is guns, knives and hunting.” While Charo said Cruz joined the Junior Reserve Officers’ Training Corps as a freshman, he continued to be “into some weird stuff,” such as shooting rats with a BB gun.

Drew Fairchild, also a classmate during Cruz’s freshman year, agreed. “He used to have weird, random outbursts,” he told the Herald, “cursing at teachers. He was a troubled kid.”

He was suspended from Stoneman Douglas for fighting, Charo told the Herald, and because he was found with bullets in his backpack.

A classmate, Victoria Olvera, 17, told the Associated Press that Cruz was expelled last school year after a fight with his ex-girlfriend’s new boyfriend.

Officials would not comment on Cruz’s school record for privacy reasons. Broward County Sheriff Scott J. Israel said at a news conference that Cruz was ultimately expelled from Stoneman Douglas for “disciplinary reasons.”

He had since enrolled in a GED program, Lewis said.

Cruz already owned the AR-15 rifle when he moved in with his friend’s family, Lewis said, noting that he was told that Cruz had bought it legally. “It was his gun. He had brought it to the house when he moved in. It was secured in a gun cabinet in the house, but he had the key to it. I believe it was secured in his room,” Lewis said. The family had not seen Cruz shooting the AR-15 since he moved in.

Authorities confirmed that Cruz bought the AR-15 himself, and it is the only gun that has been recovered as part of the investigation, said Peter J. Forcelli, special agent in charge of the Miami field division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

“He purchased the firearm legally,” Forcelli said in an interview Thursday morning. “No laws were broken in his acquisition of the firearm.”

In his social media postings, Cruz has been seen wielding other firearms, so officials are continuing to look for any additional weapons, Forcelli said. Investigators also are contacting gun shops across the region to find out whether Cruz had tried to buy other weapons.

Mackenzie Hill, a 17-year-old junior at Stoneman Douglas, told The Post that she has known Cruz since middle school, and that he was always getting into trouble. More recently, she remembered seeing him at the dollar store where he worked.

“He would talk to me like he knew me, and it creeped me out,” Hill said. “I always had a bad feeling about him.” Hill, like others, also cited Instagram posts, which, in the wake of the killings, Israel called “very, very disturbing.”

An Instagram account that appeared to belong to the suspect showed several photos of guns. And one appeared to show a gun’s holographic laser sight pointed at a neighborhood street. A second showed at least six rifles and handguns laid out on a bed with the caption “arsenal.” Other pictures showed a box of large-caliber rounds with the caption “cost me $30.” One appeared to show a dead frog’s bloodied body. Most of the photos were posted in July.

The day before the shooting, Cruz had gone to work at the dollar store, Lewis said. On most days, the father of the family with whom he was staying dropped Cruz off at his school. But Lewis said that on Wednesday, Cruz told the family something to the effect of: “I don’t go to school on Valentine’s Day.”

Authorities arrested Cruz not far from the house where he lived Wednesday afternoon after a manhunt that transfixed the region and spread panic through many nearby schools.

Michael Nembhard, a retiree who lives in Coral Springs, said he saw police arrest Cruz just outside his house near Wyndham Lake Boulevard and Coral Ridge Drive. A little after 3 p.m., Nembhard was sitting in his garage watching the news on television with the door open when he heard an officer yell, “Get on the ground!”

When he looked up, he saw a teenager lying on the ground, wearing a burgundy hoodie and dark pants. “The cop had his gun drawn and pointed at him,” Nembhard said.

Nembhard said he thinks Cruz had been on foot when he was arrested. At first, Nembhard saw only the one officer and his police cruiser alongside the suspect on the ground with no other vehicles in sight. Within minutes, however, a swarm of officers and cruisers had descended on the quiet neighborhood.

From about 150 feet away, Nembhard watched as authorities handcuffed Cruz and put him into a police cruiser. A few minutes later, authorities put him into an ambulance.

[jaxie]

So very sad and in my view a symptom of the gun owning politics of the USA. It just keeps happening.

[Alf]

The Third Reich enforced gun controls against the German people, particularly Jews, which made holocaust victims weaker to resist oppression.

It's security against tyranny. We have our Monarch that gives us security against tyranny.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I dont think we have a local White Supremacist group?

I expect Id have to go to Edinburgh if the need came up

[Crimson Dynamo]

8th Feb 2018:



Yesterday, a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee passed Senate Study Bill 3155 to propose an amendment to the state Constitution guaranteeing “the right of the people to acquire, keep, possess, transport, carry, transfer, and use arms” and Senate File 2106 to enact permitless carry in Iowa. Both bills will now go to the Senate Judiciary Committee, which could take them up for consideration as early as next week.

Senate Study Bill 3155, authored by Senator Brad Zaun (R-20), is the companion bill to House Joint Resolution 13. They will need to pass this year and next before a constitutional amendment is put on the ballot for Iowa voters to decide in 2020. Currently, Iowa is one of six states that do not have a right to keep and bear arms amendment in its state constitution, including California, Maryland, Minnesota, New Jersey, and New York.

Senate File 2106, authored by Senator Rick Bertrand (R-7), would allow law-abiding adults to legally carry a firearm without first needing to obtain a Permit to Carry Weapons (PCW). Self-defense situations are difficult, if not impossible, to anticipate. Accordingly, a law-abiding adult’s right to defend themselves in such situations should not be conditioned by government-mandated time delays and taxes. The PCW will still be available for those who wish to take advantage of reciprocity agreements when traveling to other states.

Stay tuned to www.nraila.org and your email inbox for further updates as these bills and others affecting your Second Amendment rights in Iowa.

https://twitter.com/NRA?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr% 5Eauthor

[Cherie]

Looks like the signs were there but people distanced themselves rather than getting him help, his fascination with guns should have been a red flag to someone somewhere

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/874276197357596672/kUuht00m_400x400.jpgDonald J. Trump



So many signs that the Florida shooter was mentally disturbed, even expelled from school for bad and erratic behavior. Neighbors and classmates knew he was a big problem. Must always report such instances to authorities, again and again!

[Maru]

Looks like the signs were there but people distanced themselves rather than getting him help, his fascination with guns should have been a red flag to someone somewhere

He was getting help to some degree, but apparently it didn't work as he quit going. Also I read somewhere he was reported to authorities at least once... maybe the article I shared mentioned it, but I thought I read maybe a few times more than that... teachers were certainly aware because they wrote an ominous email saying "to keep an eye" on him.

Usually killing animals for pleasure and self-gratification is a precursor to killing human beings. He put it all out there, so the picture was pretty complete in terms what he was capable of. Just nobody really acted on it. It seemed like a cry for help. (edit)

Our culture is in a mental health crisis. This may sound strange, but I think guns are going to be the least of our issues if they don't do something about our kids. Faux Twitter sympathy and social media doesn't replace real human contact... how can you help and really reach out to another person from behind a cellphone?

[GoldHeart]

So very sad and in my view a symptom of the gun owning politics of the USA. It just keeps happening.

And Trump doesn't give a damn, he was spouting BS about mental health. It's interesting how when an American teenager massacres students & teachers it's "mental illness" that's the only issue to him instead of the elephant in the room regarding easy access to guns .

When it's middle eastern terrorists then Trump wants them deported.

Things will never change, they don't care about these victims atall otherwise they'd of taken action already.

[Crimson Dynamo]

he was torturing animals, sounds like a typical psychopath

[Crimson Dynamo]

And Trump doesn't give a damn, he was spouting BS about mental health. It's interesting how when an American teenager massacres students & teachers it's "mental illness" that's the only issue to him instead of the elephant in the room regarding easy access to guns .

When it's middle eastern terrorists then Trump wants them deported.

Things will never change, they don't care about these victims atall otherwise they'd of taken action already.

stop talking rot. Donald is a father, you are not, to say he does not care is beyond stupid, in fact its insulting

get a grip

[Alf]

He was getting help to some degree, but apparently it didn't work as he quit going. Also I read somewhere he was reported to authorities at least once... maybe the article I shared mentioned it, but I thought I read maybe a few times more than that... teachers were certainly aware because they wrote an ominous email saying "to keep an eye" on him.

Usually killing animals for pleasure and self-gratification is a precursor to killing human beings. He put it all out there, so the picture was pretty complete in terms what he was capable of. Just nobody really acted on it.

Our culture is in a mental health crisis. This may sound strange, but I think guns are going to be the least of our issues if they don't do something about our kids. Faux Twitter sympathy and social media doesn't replace real human contact... how can you help and really reach out to another person from behind a cellphone?As you'd say it in the States, parents and teachers need to give problem children a whooping.

[Withano]

stop talking rot. Donald is a father, you are not, to say he does not care is beyond stupid, in fact its insulting

get a grip

Does he care enough to try and stop this from happening again though?

[Alf]

Does he care enough to try and stop this from happening again though?Now you want him to be God!

[Withano]

Now you want him to be God!

He is the president of the united states, Alf. He has the power required already.

[Maru]

He is the president of the united states, Alf. He has the power required already.

Congress can override very easily. That's what they did to Obama's executive orders.

[Maru]

I actually don't like executive orders. They're power-trippy. I prefer they pass legislation through and it's in the budget, etc.

[Withano]

Congress can override very easily. That's what they did to Obama's executive orders.

Well I did say 'to try'

[Maru]

Well I did say 'to try'

We need federal regulations at this point. The issue is public's trust of Congress is around the 30s and that's probably only counting people who regularly vote, are engaged in politics.

If the idea behind 2A is to prevent govt corruption, then why would the public trust the govt to handle gun control correctly? Trust needs to be restored before we naturally find a common ground, otherwise the rules go in and they get stripped out every 4-8 years.

Much of the violence that does occur are in areas with high gun control regulations have high gun violence and pretty much all cities are blue. So their record on gun control is actually not that great either. i.e. it needs to be federal to be "complete"...

[GoldHeart]

Does he care enough to try and stop this from happening again though?

Exactly !!! And he DOESN'T. Screw the fact he's a father . He hasn't even acknowledged that guns are the problem!!! .

The teenager was a white supremacist so he's only "mentally ill " to Trump . This will keep happening and nothing will be done about it .

Some Americans think the answer is more guns in schools , the stupidity is beyond words !.

[jaxie]

And Trump doesn't give a damn, he was spouting BS about mental health. It's interesting how when an American teenager massacres students & teachers it's "mental illness" that's the only issue to him instead of the elephant in the room regarding easy access to guns .

When it's middle eastern terrorists then Trump wants them deported.

Things will never change, they don't care about these victims atall otherwise they'd of taken action already.

Trump always spouts mental health. Get a clue Trump, if you have so many crazies who want to go shoot your countries kids, stop making it easy for them to get guns!

[jaxie]

We need federal regulations at this point. The issue is public's trust of Congress is around the 30s and that's probably only counting people who regularly vote, are engaged in politics.

If the idea behind 2A is to prevent govt corruption, then why would the public trust the govt to handle gun control correctly? Trust needs to be restored before we naturally find a common ground, otherwise the rules go in and they get stripped out every 4-8 years.

Much of the violence that does occur are in areas with high gun control regulations have high gun violence and pretty much all cities are blue. So their record on gun control is actually not that great either. i.e. it needs to be federal to be "complete"...

I quite often dislike the government and there has certainly been some corruption. I don't want to go and shoot any of them though. :shrug:

[GoldHeart]

Trump always spouts mental health. Get a clue Trump, if you have so many crazies who want to go shoot your countries kids, stop making it easy for them to get guns!

:clap1:

I can't stand him !! .

[Crimson Dynamo]

Does he care enough to try and stop this from happening again though?

he is a figurehead not a dictator

what did obama do

jack sh1te

[Maru]

I quite often dislike the government and there has certainly been some corruption. I don't want to go and shoot any of them though. :shrug:

Nobody is walking up to the govt and shooting anyone? That's only part of the prevention. It's for extreme cases, like if the govt were to be tyrannical, we could defend ourselves if they invaded our homes, but that's only a small part of it.

Having the means to arm ourselves also means we have the ability to police our own communities and are not completely dependent on the govt for our means of self-preservation. The government is large and inefficient. In my area there's a major peace officer shortage, and part of the reason they have gotten away with it for so long is because of 2A.

What the Democrats often advocate for is bigger govt, which leads to more spending, heavier policing and those are the issues advocates have with their method of gun control. They want laws, but then they also want to create new agencies and infrastructure, levy new taxes, add a lot of red tape and make it very difficult. They're heavy handed in the cities they run and that's part of why crime rates are skyrocket.

The other philosophy (Libertarian) is that govt sucks at virtually everything so therefore it would be better that the public have the ability to manage of their own interests with as little of the govt involved as reasonably necessary. Adding more just leads to more corruption, more interests, and more gridlock... part of the reason Congress and our govt is in the shape it is in is because it was never meant to be this large, require 200 page bills and pass sweeping regulations. It was meant to be smaller and not run the way it is now.

Here's an example though of interference. In places where you see police agencies being militarized in the media (largely north US/NE), with heavy armor, SWAT, AR-15's, etc, these are also the same areas where people's right to own or carry are limited and/or discourage. Therefore, in an attempt to solve the rising crime rates, have some of the highest income disparities, they invest more in policing... which that doesn't apparently work, so they give police more leeway to be aggressive... which leads to over-policing in places like Baltimore.

Maryland has strict gun laws and yet Baltimore has some of the highest homicide rates in the country and they are now talking about dismantling their police agency and starting over. (http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/maryland/politics/bs-md-ali-disband-20180213-story.html) When many citizens will tell you if they could just simply defend themselves against armed criminals they wouldn't need to call the police.

The US is a different culture, with it's an own philosophy. It's not as simple as disarm the public and peace will prevail. It will have to be a broader solution, on a federal (national scale)... but understand, there are a lot of arguments to solve to get there and it's not as simple as "pass more regulation"... the Democrats have done that and it does not always help. Also, they want to above and beyond that, and those of us who have lived in areas where self-policing is a way of life do not want to end up like Chicago or Baltimore. I lived outside Baltimore for 8 years.

[BBUK-Fan]

This is truly awful. They need to get rid of guns.

[BBUK-Fan]

Hearing these things have happened is just awful and it repulses how somebody would do something like that and hurt innocent people. Why does guns have to be the answer?

[Tozzie]

I've just seen a question on BBC News website, 'is it time to arm the teachers' FGS it's time to get rid of the guns!!!!!! Some say guns don't kill, it's the people who use them that kill, well if there were no guns those people couldn't kill with them!!!

[Alf]

I've just seen a question on BBC News website, 'is it time to arm the teachers' FGS it's time to get rid of the guns!!!!!! Some say guns don't kill, it's the people who use them that kill, well if there were no guns those people couldn't kill with them!!!And law abiding citizens couldn't defend themselves against criminals who obtain their guns illegally, they'd just be sitting ducks.

Why give the criminal all the power while at the same time taking away the power of the law abiding citizen?

[Alf]

Apparently a witness was interviewd on TV and claimed that there was another shooter other than the arrested guy. And Barbara has some questions.


8sV28fD8ABw

[Tom4784]

he is a figurehead not a dictator

what did obama do

jack sh1te

Trump has mostly a republican Congress on his side, Obama was a democrat with that same republican congress shooting down anything he tried to do just 'cus.

[GoldHeart]

Trump has mostly a republican Congress on his side, Obama was a democrat with that same republican congress shooting down anything he tried to do just 'cus.

You've pretty much said it how it was .
Obama was trying to sort out the gun control but it didn't work , and the white house was always blocking him left right and centre with decisions in general . The republicans were ruling the roost from then :bored:.

And now the country has a maniac running things who's worse than just a republican .

[bots]

passing a law one way or another isn't going to change anything though, so blaming governments for not implementing gun control doesn't achieve anything.

There is no simple solution. It requires a raft of measures first of which should be to protect the communities effectively. Once communities are protected, there is little point in having a gun, so why bother. It will regulate itself once the other measures are in place

[Alf]

These evil cowards only go for no guns zones, if there was the chance of retaliation, they wouldn't contemplate it. They're cowards who target defenceless people. Mentally sick. No law can stop that.

[Northern Monkey]

No president would ever attempt to actually ban guns.The only thing vaguely possible would be stricter controls on purchasing them.
To ban them would mean having to try and disarm the population which would probably end up with the bloodiest civil war in history.Guns are in Americas DNA.

[Maru]

Trump has mostly a republican Congress on his side, Obama was a democrat with that same republican congress shooting down anything he tried to do just 'cus.

Obama had control of both houses the first two years (at least). They bungled that though (somehow) and lost some of that majority, but I think they may have kept the House of Representatives. Can't remember why. I was on bedrest on and off during those years and fighting through college

(edit) Even without a theoretical "total control" (which is unlikely given the state of our politics), both parties can still filibuster just about anything from being able to go through. That's how the system was intended though.

They know this, but both parties prefer to sit to throw their hands up and pretend they're "powerless" and make it into a football game. But, that's also not their fault because the public keeps voting them in. Easy job...

[Tom4784]

Banning them in America is a fool's dream but so is trying to control them, the people in power and those with influence do not care about dead children, not as long as the gun industry is proftable and brings in the tax dollars.

These shootings are just going to get more and more deadlier with more casualties and nothing will happen. the whole student body of that school could have been killed and the conversation would have died after a few weeks with nothing like it always has.

These kids died for no reason, their deaths will be in vain and there will be more shootings like this before the year's out, there always is.

[Maru]

Not that it matters all that much in the grand scheme of things, but the leader of that white supremacist group may have lied about him being in them for publicity.

Local law enforcement: No ties between militia and Florida high school shooter
http://www.tallahassee.com/story/news/2018/02/15/florida-school-shooting-suspect-nikolas-cruz-member-white-nationalist-militia-tallahassee-leader-say/341751002/

Jordan Jereb, local leader for the Republic of Florida, a separatist group on the Southern Poverty Law Center's Hate Watch

Authorities say Nikolas Cruz, a former student, opened fire at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Fla., Wednesday, Feb. 14, 2018, killing more than a dozen people and injuring several.(Photo: Broward County Jail)

Local law enforcement sources have not found a connection between accused Parkland school shooter Nikolas Cruz and a Tallahassee-based paramilitary group.

Leon County law enforcement sources told the Tallahassee Democrat that they could not find information linking Cruz, 19, to the Republic of Florida Militia, as claimed by the group’s self-proclaimed leader Jordan Jereb.

His comments to the Anti-Defamation League and The Associated Press set off a media firestorm Thursday at about midday that Cruz was connected to the alt-right, white nationalist group.

Hours after news outlets around the nation reported Cruz's alleged ties, Leon County Sheriff’s Office spokesman Lt. Grady Jordan told the Tallahassee Democrat investigative work did not yield any connections.

“We are still doing some work but we have no known ties between the ROF, Jordan Jereb or the Broward shooter,” Jordan said.

Jordan and other law enforcement sources declined to confirm whether they had spoken to Jereb, who is no stranger to Tallahassee law enforcement.

Cruz entered Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Wednesday, investigators say, with an AR-15 and opened fire, killing 17 people and injuring 14. He faces 17 counts of premeditated murder.

Jereb said Cruz was a member of the group and had participated in paramilitary training drills in Tallahassee.

In a brief phone call with the Tallahassee Democrat, Jereb said there was “No way to put a good spin on all of this."

“This is a negative situation,” he added before hanging up to speak with ABC News.

At least 17 dead in school shooting in Parkland, Fla.

Jereb did not answer repeated phone calls following law enforcement officials saying they found little to lead them to believe Cruz was connected to the organization which has a scant following of around a dozen members.

In a profanity-laced post hours later on a social media site, an account bearing Jereb's name said the whole thing was a "legit misunderstanding," saying they have more than one member named Nikolas. He also said he not slept "for like 2 days."

Jereb, a self-described "right-wing extremist nut," faced charges in 2016 after threatening a high-ranking staff member of Gov. Rick Scott's office.

Jereb is known to ride a bike through neighborhoods wearing paramilitary garb and stand at the side of the road with an ROF flag. He has filmed numerous run-ins with law enforcement in Tallahassee in which he consistently tells officers when he is stopped, "I'm a free man traveling the land."

“Jordan Jereb, the leader of the Republic of Florida Militia (ROF), a white nationalist hate group that we have been monitoring, earlier today claimed that Nikolas Cruz, the suspect in the massacre at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, is a member of his group. Hours after claiming a connection to Cruz, Jereb said he had been misunderstood.

“On its website, the ROF describes itself as ‘a white civil rights organization fighting for white Identitarian politics, And the ultimate creation of a white ethnostate so we can be free from anti-white policies and have policies that reflect our values as white westerners. The ROF Militia is the armed forces of the Republic Of Florida.’

“Jereb initially claimed that Cruz was a member, that he had participated in one or more ROF training exercises in the Tallahassee area, and that he carpooled with other members from South Florida. Though the link was reported by several news organizations, the SPLC has not confirmed it.

“It may seem odd that Jereb would bring attention to his group by claiming a connection to Cruz, but Jereb has always been somewhat of a publicity seeker. In 2014, in fact, he wrote us to complain that we had not already listed ROF as a hate group. In April 2017, Michael Tubbs, the leader of the Florida chapter of the League of the South, a well-known hate group, wrote that Jereb ‘never misses a photo op’ and called him ‘a nut job who should be avoided.’”

[Marches]

Guns are good if gun control was properly implemented so that psychos like this who showed signs would never get their hands on one

Tho these people would probably murder anyway. If you were to get rid of guns you’re taking the power of self defence from the general public who have done no wrong

[Crimson Dynamo]

I still think its pretty pointless trying to judge America by our own standards and worldview.

Most away from the East coast cities and LA seem happy with the current gun laws and have voted to say so.

[Withano]

Guns are good if gun control was properly implemented so that psychos like this who showed signs would never get their hands on one

Tho these people would probably murder anyway. If you were to get rid of guns you’re taking the power of self defence from the general public who have done no wrong

He wasnt a psycho 'like that' a few months ago though. Theres someone out there right now, with an excellent mindset going about their day not doing much, who will turn to a violent psychopath when triggered by something that nobody can predict.

Theres not much you can do. Obviously dont give dangerous people a weapon, but dangerous people will still find a weapon.. dangerous people will still be given weapons during a time that they werent so dangerous.

Idk what the solution is, its isnt easy, if it was, it wouldnt be a problem.

I think they got to start from the top down, get rid of the most deadly guns in this decade, and make owning certaing guns and making or selling the bullets for certain guns a punishable offence.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Id imagine it must be pretty scary going to school at the moment

[Tom4784]

Guns are good if gun control was properly implemented so that psychos like this who showed signs would never get their hands on one

Tho these people would probably murder anyway. If you were to get rid of guns you’re taking the power of self defence from the general public who have done no wrong

Gun control isn't 'taking guns away' though, that's the mindset that prevents gun control from ever happening in the US. Gun control, if implemented properly would only affect people who would be a danger in the first place. There's millions of gun owners in the US who would be unaffected by increased checks and a ban on the sale of military grade weapons since who could truly justify owning an AR-15 for the purpose of 'Self Defense'?

If guns weren't an issue and this wankstain of a human being decided to go on a rampage with, say, a knife, he would not have killed or hurt as many people as he did with a gun. Chances are he wouldn't have killed anyone. Access to guns is absolutely the problem here, you can't do anything about people being psychotic but you can try to ensure they don't have access to weapons that give them the best chances to kill as many people as they can before they are caught.

[-Sue-]

Gun control isn't 'taking guns away' though, that's the mindset that prevents gun control from ever happening in the US. Gun control, if implemented properly would only affect people who would be a danger in the first place. There's millions of gun owners in the US who would be unaffected by increased checks and a ban on the sale of military grade weapons since who could truly justify owning an AR-15 for the purpose of 'Self Defense'?

If guns weren't an issue and this wankstain of a human being decided to go on a rampage with, say, a knife, he would not have killed or hurt as many people as he did with a gun. Chances are he wouldn't have killed anyone. Access to guns is absolutely the problem here, you can't do anything about people being psychotic but you can try to ensure they don't have access to weapons that give them the best chances to kill as many people as they can before they are caught.

:clap1: well said

[arista]

I still think its pretty pointless trying to judge America by our own standards and worldview.

Most away from the East coast cities and LA seem happy with the current gun laws and have voted to say so.


Yes whoever is running USA
Guns are the Tradition of all Americans.

This 19 year old Killer
is Guilty

[GoldHeart]

And law abiding citizens couldn't defend themselves against criminals who obtain their guns illegally, they'd just be sitting ducks.

Why give the criminal all the power while at the same time taking away the power of the law abiding citizen?

So by that crazy logic , what about all the knife crime and acid attacks here in the UK how should we solve that problem?? shall we all go around carrying knives and harmful chemicals in our bags and pockets just incase we get hurt by some violent person :facepalm:.

The answer isn't more guns . If those teachers had guns in that Florida school can you imagine the carnage that would of took place , it was already horrific but if the teachers had guns the firing would of been a bigger blood bath !! . And more innocent lives would of been lost :shocked: .

Teachers aren't there to defend themselves with weapons ,they're there to teach the students and help them . Yes teachers will try and keep students safe but they shouldn't have to use guns to do that .

If we end up living in a world where every citizen carries a weapon , what kind of life is that?. It won't make people feel safer it will just cause paranoia and make everyone feel uneasy !.

[Maru]

Teachers already carry guns here. Several states have or have always had open carry. Texas has had open carry for a while now and I've yet to see a single person. My husband has seen one... in a city of over 2 million. A carry permit is required for concealed carry, as well as classes and training. There's not a ton of people who carry, but my husband does (mainly for his job), and it takes a while to go through while all the necessary background checks, etc are made. They ask you everything from your history, your reasons, any arrests, etc... an omission can get you flagged so you have to divulge everything during application. It takes a few months to go through. It took 6-8 months for my husband to get into law enforcement as they had to go out of state for his records and this process felt very similar to the paperwork side of that.

As for how "bloody" it could've been if more carried. There was a mass shooting at a church last year and it would have been a lot worse had it not been for armed citizens intervening.

Hero' exchanged fire with gunman, then helped chase him down
https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/05/us/texas-church-shooting-resident-action/index.html

(CNN) The deadliest shooting in Texas history could have claimed even more lives if it weren't for two strangers who jumped into action, authorities said.

When Devin Patrick Kelley opened fire inside First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs on Sunday, Stephen Willeford, who lives near the church, grabbed his own gun and ran out of the house barefoot to confront the gunman.

"What do you say to the man who stepped up when he heard the gunshots? I'd say he's a hero," Wilson County Sheriff Joe Tackitt Jr. told CNN's Chris Cuomo on Monday. "I don't think there's any question about that. Had he not done what he did, we could have lost more people."

I can understand though how many feel here about weapons, and I'm quite sympathetic to that and not really bothersome in that aspect. In UK culture no individual would even have to fathom owning one so it's understandable that others are critical of something that they are not even exposed to it. We don't even have that option, even if they were outlawed, there would be a great deal of them grandfathered in (like in Australia).

All I can say is that most people who are at the range, they are safety-focused and quite mature when it comes to how they are handled. It's not a social engagement or a place where people go to chat. Safety is a big deal and they have someone who stands around monitoring how everything is run and they have regular periods where everyone stops and they check to make sure everyone is following the range's rules. It's not walk in and do whatever you please. They have strict procedures they follow and there are any number of things that could get you in trouble or kicked out. They also go up to people and help train them a bit if they're having trouble and will make sure they are not doing anything stupid. Have been to several and have always found the staff to be helpful and committed to safety.

There are kids that act like fools, but they're not going to do it in those places. It's usually on YT and FB actually... to complete strangers I guess. Especially here, where people are homeowners and gun ownership is only so common, but even someone who doesn't own will be quick to "have a word". They're not going to mouth off in front of adults... it'll be to peers who are stupid and have had no training. But for the most part, people take care of their business and they receive some education at the range. I've never really seen a gun out in the open (maybe in a gun cabinet? If that...) when visiting someone's home. And even if they had one, it's not something that you pay that much attention to?... we are so adjusted to it and feel safe enough to take it for granted I guess.

I do think AR-15s need to be banned up until at least 24 years. Most mental health issues have started to well manifest by that point, so it makes sense to push it off until at least around that age to also allow for people to mature before owning. Kids seem to be maturing later and later, so it makes sense to move the law up accordingly. Handguns can't be carried until 21, which is ironic, but it's probably because handguns are what are most often used in violent crimes. AR-15s are a smaller percentage. Rifles tend to be a home defense kind of thing. I've never seen anyone carrying those around for fun. :laugh: They tend to be something that stays with you in your home for home protector or when you visit the range to practice. If you live near an open field like literally in the middle of no where, you may take it out... but in areas with a denser population, that isn't the case.

However, even if we ban them, I get the feeling eventually there will be 3D printers that can handle making gun parts and it's going to make a lot of this much more complicated to resolve. We can buy an entire AR-15, but generally many people buy kits (with some assembly necessary) or they buy individual parts and build them from scratch. The latter is common as it's a very customizable weapon. So when there is 3D printing for metal--which makes sense would happen eventually as we get away from the old way of buying one new thing after another. It makes sense that people will be able to build parts for old weapons or even make entirely new ones...

Ammunition is actually quite easy to make as well. It's called "reloading". You need to have certain tools to do it, but they're simple tools. The most difficult part is buying brass... well, if you can buy bullets, you have brass--as long as you buy a certain grade, the brass can usually be reused.

Bumstocks are also relatively easy to make (supposedly).

There's also the issue of criminals being able to obtain these weapons one way or another, and there's already areas with strict laws in places with high homicide rates that do such a swell job of keeping those people from owning (it doesn't)... so that more laws would not help in those cases. Even an age restriction.


As for the shooter, they're saying at this point he should've been flagged up the *ss in the ATF, but law enforcement dropped the ball... several times. The law is there, but if they don't enforce it, it wouldn't have mattered if a stricter law were in put in it's place.

I had listened to a podcast saying his mother had wanted him to be committed, as he is prone to fits of rage I need to find a source for that. Supposedly their neighbor would let him over and he would have one of his fits and had torn up their place. His history of violence was well-charted. There had been numerous police calls to his residence, 39 times over the course of seven years (https://nypost.com/2018/02/16/deputies-called-to-suspected-shooters-home-39-times-over-seven-years/).

We don't have a system in the US where we can voluntarily or involuntarily commit someone and that's a much bigger issue imo. California has a 5150 hold (Britney Spears was detained using that protocol), but that is to a hospital for 3 days iirc, so not to a true psych facility. Certainly not nearly long enough for anyone to be monitored, for their medications to be put in order, much less for them to respond... (which sometimes takes months).

He was able to legally obtain a weapon even though he had a substantial history of violence, of making threats to other citizens, of psychiatric treatment, etc... but yet nothing was done. The FBI already has said they were notified but failed to do anything about it. Yet on his background check, nothing came back. (http://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-florida-school-shooting-guns-20180215-story.html) He should've been flagged...

Another example of where he may have been caught--if he had committed a felony, especially a violent crime, those folk are not allowed to own under any circumstance. There are obviously many cases where they will do it anyway. For example, one of our friends pulled over a guy in a security guard uniform who was reporting to work... he talked about starting a new job, which required a firearm, and he was arrested on the spot. But the person has to interact with an officer for their full record to be looked into, and even then they have to be searched. Do we suggest now that we search all vehicles who are linked to a felon who driving weird on the road?... my crystal ball and witch broom are in my closet, but I can already see those headlines.

Alleged Florida school shooter Nikolas Cruz was reported to FBI, cops, school -- but warning signs missed
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16/alleged-florida-school-shooter-nikolas-cruz-was-reported-to-fbi-cops-school-but-warning-signs-missed.html

Attorney General Jeff Sessions on Friday ordered an "immediate review" after it emerged that the FBI had not acted on a recent tip that Florida school shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz wanted to “kill people” and there was the “potential of him conducting a school shooting.”

In a statement, the bureau admitted to receiving a call on Jan. 5 from a person close to Cruz who contacted the FBI through its Public Access Line (PAL) tipline to express concerns about his erratic behavior and disturbing social media posts.


Cruz, 19, opened fire at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School on Wednesday, killing 17 people. He has confessed, according to court documents.

"Under established protocols, the information provided by the caller should have been assessed as a potential threat to life," the FBI statement said. "We have determined that these protocols were not followed for the information received by the PAL on Jan. 5."

"It is now clear that the warning signs were there and tips to the FBI were missed," Sessions said in a Friday afternoon statement. "We see the tragic consequences of those failures."

"The FBI in conjunction with our state and local partners must act flawlessly to prevent all attacks," Sessions continued. "This is imperative, and we must do better. I have ordered the deputy attorney general to conduct an immediate review of our process here at the Department of Justice and FBI to ensure that we reach the highest level of prompt and effective response to indications of potential violence that come to us."

The FBI concluded that the caller's information was not forwarded to the Miami FBI field office, and that "no further investigation was conducted at the time." FBI Director Christopher Wray said the bureau would review what had happened.

“We are still investigating the facts. I am committed to getting to the bottom of what happened in this particular matter, as well as reviewing our processes for responding to information that we receive from the public," Wray said in the statement. "It’s up to all Americans to be vigilant, and when members of the public contact us with concerns, we must act properly and quickly."

He continued: "We have spoken with victims and families, and deeply regret the additional pain this causes all those affected by this horrific tragedy. All of the men and women of the FBI are dedicated to keeping the American people safe, and are relentlessly committed to improving all that we do and how we do it.”

"Under normal protocol, this information should have been provided to the Miami field office," FBI special agenst Robert Lasky said in a Friday afternoon press conference. "The FBI is still investigating the facts of this situation. We will conduct an in-depth review of our procedures."

Cruz reportedly had dozens of run-ins with law enforcement prior to Wednesday's shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High dating back to 2010. Broward County Sheriff Scott Israel said Friday that there were "20 calls for services in the last few years."

"Everyone of these calls for service will be looked at and scrutinized," he said.

Many 911 calls emanated from 80th Terrace St. in Parkland – the suburban address where the teenager lived with his younger brother, Zachary, and their adoptive mother, Lynda, BuzzFeed reported.

The calls – dating as far back as 2010 and continuing until November 2016 – shed a light on two erratic and violent boys who repeatedly “threw items,” were “out of control” and fought with their mother and each other on an apparently regular basis.

NIKOLAS CRUZ WAS LIVING WITH HS STUDENT IN MONTHS LEADING UP TO MASSACRE, ATTORNEY SAYS

Despite the repeated calls to authorities, Cruz was never arrested – and was basically cleared as being “no threat to anyone or himself,” as one therapist said in a police report from Sept. 28, 2016.

In that particular call, the sheriff’s office said Nikolas and his mother were fighting over paperwork needed for him to get an ID card. In their report, deputies detailed how the teen had been harming himself and had talked about buying a gun.

The therapist on scene, Jared Bienenfeld with Henderson Mental Health, and the deputies concluded there were “no signs of mental illness or criminal activity.”

TRUMP: 'SO MANY SIGNS' FLORIDA SHOOTING SUSPECT WAS 'MENTALLY DISTURBED'

According to reports, Cruz and his brother both suffered from mental health issues, including ADHD and OCD, and took medication as treatment. Cruz's lawyer said Thursday her client was "a broken human being" and the team was looking into an evaluation for autism.

Cruz was able to legally purchase the AR-15 he used in the mass shooting. Attorney Jim Lewis told the Sun-Sentinel that the teenager already owned the gun when he moved in with his friend’s family around Thanksgiving, after his mother's November death.

Cruz was expelled from Marjory Stoneman last year for “disciplinary problems,” with one report saying bullets were discovered in his backpack at one point.

FLORIDA HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL COACH WHO WAS SEEN SHIELDING STUDENTS FROM GUNFIRE DIES

"No other information was included in the comment which would indicate a particular time, location or the true identity of the person who posted the comment," the FBI said in a subsequent statement.

On Thursday, Florida Sen. Marco Rubio said it was "inexcusable" that the FBI had failed to follow protocols that could have prevented Wednesday's shooting.

"The fact that the FBI is investigating this failure is not enough. Both the House and Senate need to immediately initiate their own investigations into the FBI’s protocols for ensuring tips from the public about potential killers are followed through," the Republican senator said in a statement.

Also Friday: Florida Gov. Rick Scott called for Wray to resign. "We constantly promote ‘see something, say something,’ and a courageous person did just that to the FBI," Scott said in a statement. "And the FBI failed to act. ‘See something, say something’ is an incredibly important tool and people must have confidence in the follow through from law enforcement. The FBI Director needs to resign."

"The potential for the FBI to miss something is always there," Lasky said. "We will be looking into where and how the protocol broke down."

Cruz was charged with 17 counts of premeditated murder on Thursday and is being held without bail.

Many folk here have been feeling like most in this thread, like a dark cloud has gone over our hearts. I listen to both liberal and conservative media and the vibe is the same across. Nobody wants this to continue, but the road to correcting this epidemic is going to be long and complicated...

As I've mentioned before, there are states that are already strict with gun laws, and all it's done is cause a jump in a crime overall. But, the gun control issue is only a small part of it... it's an easy thing to blame, which is our gun culture, but there is also an impending mental health crisis... this is pretty obvious given the toxic nature of our politics, the amount of rage that is being vented into online and the nature that most people "handle" (i'd say "mishandle") their social media and how they conduct themselves in our society. I think much of the West is dealing with this actually. We can't just ask for more authorities to police us, we have to some degree police ourselves and each other... right now the solution seems to be retweets and Facebook likes, but that's faux social engagement. It's a placebo, not really a fix.

America needs an intervention, and I think the psych facilities--as much scandal as there was associated with running them (and there will always be scandals with any public institution... sadly...), they should return.

I think a vast majority of the reason they do not return to having public facilities is because nobody wants the inevitable **** stain that will be on their policy record when they are brought back. It would be expensive to run correctly and if done too inexpensively or poorly administrated, there would be a nightmare of public outcry when the inevitable scandals and medical abuses do occur with lower-paid contractors... we already see this with the hospitals, jails and nursing homes when they take shortcuts.

We are having that issue with our local jails with one of the largest mental health facilities in the country. Those local authorities would be more than ecstatic to move them to a private contract rather than deal with them directly. That will likely never happen though, because nobody wants to face that issue head-on. I fear though what that would look like if they moved those facilities to contracting.

We've had three Sheriffs now and all three are doing what they can with the funding they have and have setup mental health training for all their officers (which my husband helped to build the state program for), but society asks for a solution... and none are willing to pay the money or cut spending in other programs in order to to create these solutions, so we are stuck with the bare minimum...

Many do seem to think outlawing guns (and this is by no means a small group) or establishing more infrastructure, or more laws, or more money to XYZ useless committee... when actually, I think the money would be best spent on improving mental health training in schools and having our mental health system build back to where it used to be. If we had to choose between the two, I'd pick mental health.

None of this will be addressed yet because we haven't even tackled Obamacare and the issues there. And these are not the only issues in our country where the buck has been passed for a generation or so now and that's part of the reason these crisises are occuring non-stop... and it seems like to tackle one thing, we have to tackle another thing.

I think it's also nonsensical to keep putting more and more responsibility on the Criminal Justice system. It's no wonder this is breaking down, because too much of society is put onto law enforcement to solve all our issues, and yet... also to adjust to resolve racism and inequality as well now? It shouldn't be a solution to all our issues. The more roles we give this system, the more it will strain those systems and may even lead to the kind of police state (or criminal epidemic) that most people would rather we avoid. In some cities, it already has...

Parents should be able to sign a form to have a child committed, especially if it's after numerous phone-calls to the police and they are having a difficult time keeping them under control. That would avoid the calls. They should be able to obtain paperwork to keep them from owning for sure and that should be given when they enter a facility to the parent. This will flag a lot of people during application process for carries as well... so they probably wouldn't be approved with that type of history even if they do manage to get approval again.

Anyway, I could keep going... but there are many issues in our country that need solving. And nothing that our current administration and Congress seems capable of handling without immature pandering... This year we will be possibly losing the Republican majority and may end up with a Senate that is red and a House that is blue as typically happens during midterms... and so that will possibly mean more gridlock... and if we get a blue Congress, then that shall also be interesting, because Trump is able to veto everything that comes from Congress. His Twitter is already trollish... his account might actually burn a hole into the universe if the Republicans somehow lose the majority in both houses and the Russian investigation gets into full swing. I'm trying not to think about the midterms tqbh.

[Maru]

I still think its pretty pointless trying to judge America by our own standards and worldview.

Most away from the East coast cities and LA seem happy with the current gun laws and have voted to say so.

America does this too, the judging of other cultures by our standards :inamood:... so it's not like we're not getting a taste of our own medicine. :laugh:

The West could do with a little bit less ethnocentrism, and a lot more humility, especially if we are to fix our own societies... basically we are the enemy of our own making.

[Ammi]

yeah or more guns is the answer to these incidents ffs but yeah not even going to bother repeating the same old s**t, nothing will change, too much money involved now

..no I don’t think it will, not in any significant way which could possibly make a difference...it’s so heartbreakingly sad for those lives lost and for all loved ones ...but one thing I’ve noticed over time...in real life I mean, as opposed to forum threads on awful things like this...is the ‘shock’ seems to have gone, almost like...another America school shooting...and that’s so terribly, terribly sad that it is becoming or has become so ‘commonplace’...is how it can feel with reactions to the news...the western world should always feel the shock and loss of 17 young people as equally as ever before...

[GoldHeart]

..no I don’t think it will, not in any significant way which could possibly make a difference...it’s so heartbreakingly sad for those lives lost and for all loved ones ...but one thing I’ve noticed over time...in real life I mean, as opposed to forum threads on awful things like this...is the ‘shock’ seems to have gone, almost like...another America school shooting...and that’s so terribly, terribly sad that it is becoming or has become so ‘commonplace’...is how it can feel with reactions to the news...the western world should always feel the shock and loss of 17 young people as equally as ever before...


We're all use to hearing about gun shootings, think of all the school shootings that happen that we hear about it's shocking & still horrible but it's all too familiar.

Now think about the general gun violence in America we don't hear about, because it happens every day in America and it's treated as the norm :facepalm:.

If they won't get rid of guns entirely, you'd think they'd at least take action to have restrictions so these weapons aren't readily available to lunatics who are trigger happy .

But nothing will change :bored: .

[arista]

Live All Media

Florida Court Verdict.

1st Degree Murders


N. Cruz Now Sentenced To Life with No Parole

[Mystic Mock]

Live All Media

Florida Court Verdict.

1st Degree Murders


N. Cruz Now Sentenced To Life with No Parole

Great news to hear.

[arista]

Great news to hear.


Many wanted him to be Sentenced to Death.

[Mystic Mock]

Many wanted him to be Sentenced to Death.

Realistically I knew that wasn't gonna happen as most of America are trying to stop using the Death Penalty as often.