Trump: Teachers should carry guns

[Amy Jade]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/22/thursday-briefing-trump-offers-guns-to-fix-gun-problem

His answer to cries of survivors of repeated gun attacks in schools and the parents of the deceased is to give more guns.

How is this mad man still in the presidential role?

[Crimson Dynamo]

No, he said he would listen to an idea to let a teacher who was trained to use a firearm to carry one to deter shooters

one of a number of ideas he is listening to


still lets not spoil a grrrr kill him boooo thread



:idc:

[Beso]

He is making changes, unlike his predecesers....i must say though...all these plebs on the streets demanding action....blocking ambulances on emergences...absolute scum.

[Underscore]

Idiot

[Crimson Dynamo]

It takes around 8 minutes for first responders to arrive after being alerted


8 minutes is an awful lot of dead children

[Amy Jade]

No, he said he would listen to an idea to let a teacher who was trained to use a firearm to carry one to deter shooters

one of a number of ideas he is listening to


still lets not spoil a grrrr kill him boooo thread


:idc:

Who here is wishing him dead? or are you just being dramatic to cause argumemts to deter healthy debate?

If America had more stringent rules over gun control teachers would not have to have guns and could focus on teaching. A novel thought I know.

[jaxie]

They have to stop selling guns like candy and limit guns sales. No member of the public needs an automatic or semi automatic.

Arming teachers is a stupid idea but let's be honest the lack of gun control in the US is about the power and money of the NRA. They dish out cash and are allowed far to much influence.

People with mental health issues isn't their problem either. It's mental people getting easy access to guns that is their problem.

http://www.dailyherald.com/news/20180220/a-cartoon-about-school-shootings-is-breaking-peoples-hearts

[Kazanne]

No, he said he would listen to an idea to let a teacher who was trained to use a firearm to carry one to deter shooters

one of a number of ideas he is listening to


still lets not spoil a grrrr kill him boooo thread



:idc:

Yes, a more accurate version of what is actually going on,at least he is listening,it's always a step in the right direction,plus shooters were killing in schools long before he became president and nothing was done then,maybe this time something will change.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Who here is wishing him dead? or are you just being dramatic to cause argumemts to deter healthy debate?

If America had more stringent rules over gun control teachers would not have to have guns and could focus on teaching. A novel thought I know.

There is only healthy debate if the premis is correct and your headline is incorrect


President Trump: Listens to an idea Some teachers should be trained to carry a gun.


does not sound so good to trigger "the pitchforks" does it?

[Jessica.]

no, he said he would listen to an idea to let a teacher who was trained to use a firearm to carry one to deter shooters

one of a number of ideas he is listening to


still lets not spoil a grrrr kill him boooo thread



:idc:

966495718478417921

[Oliver_W]

Maybe not every teacher should carry a firearm, but allowing someone on the premises the means to defend themselves isn't the worst idea.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes, a more accurate version of what is actually going on,at least he is listening,it's always a step in the right direction,plus shooters were killing in schools long before he became president and nothing was done then,maybe this time something will change.

I think he may actually get something done as the NRA feel he is onside - if Clinton was in charge they would have just blocked everything. I think ironically Trump is probably their best hope right now.

[Niamh.]

He is making changes, unlike his predecesers....i must say though...all these plebs on the streets demanding action....blocking ambulances on emergences...absolute scum.

adding more guns is making negative changes not good ones

[Niamh.]

Who here is wishing him dead? or are you just being dramatic to cause argumemts to deter healthy debate?

If America had more stringent rules over gun control teachers would not have to have guns and could focus on teaching. A novel thought I know.

Logic but everyone knows why he isn't doing that and it's not because he wants to help stop incidents like this.

[waterhog]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/22/thursday-briefing-trump-offers-guns-to-fix-gun-problem

His answer to cries of survivors of repeated gun attacks in schools and the parents of the deceased is to give more guns.

How is this mad man still in the presidential role?

the tide is turning and the usa people are seeing change - it is the start and this is going to be a one more regret interview for the trump :shrug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Logic but everyone knows why he isn't doing that and it's not because he wants to help stop incidents like this.

The President is the spokesperson for the democratic majority of people in America

He is their choice and as such he is them - he isnt some MD of a company he created

[Niamh.]

The President is the spokesperson for the democratic majority of people in America

He is their choice and as such he is them - he isnt some MD of a company he created

On this particular issue he is very much the spokes person for the NRA which you know very well but carry on pretending that isn't true if you like

[Crimson Dynamo]

On this particular issue he is very much the spokes person for the NRA which you know very well but carry on pretending that isn't true if you like

Totally untrue

[Jessica.]

I just watched a news report about this and even the presenters were uncomfortable. He actually said it in front of the survivors of mass shootings and parents who lost their children. It was disgusting. He also explained what concealed carry was, as if he was speaking to complete morons. It's disgusting what some people will do for money.

[Niamh.]

Totally untrue

Ok then :hehe:

Donald Trump tells NRA: 'I am going to come through for you'

[lewis111]

I agree with Jessica - what he said infront of the survivors and victim's families made me extremely uncomfortable. Even if he knew he wasn't going to do exactly what they wanted he should've just comforted them and assured them things were going to be ok and get better - instead he made them more worried and angry

He has no heart or compassion for anyone, which is quite scary

[Livia]

We all know the answer to the firearms problem in the USA is not to have more guns. Trump's between a rock and a hard place... Oppose the NRA and lose support among his core voters, or side with the NRA, keep all the funding and the kickbacks and lose the trust of the rest of the USA. This is probably the dodgiest place he's been since he took up office, and let's face it, that's a pretty strong field.

[Amy Jade]

We all know the answer to the firearms problem in the USA is not to have more guns. Trump's between a rock and a hard place... Oppose the NRA and lose support among his core voters, or side with the NRA, keep all the funding and the kickbacks and lose the trust of the rest of the USA. This is probably the dodgiest place he's been since he took up office, and let's face it, that's a pretty strong field.

Personally I would risk losing office and put the safety of others, including young children, first.

I understand guns are a big thing in America, I have been to Texas and saw people walking around supermarkets carrying guns but the laws need changing BADLY. I saw something on TV the other day and a 14 year old was refused alcohol, cigatettes and even scratch cards but allowed to buy a gun without a problem, that is insane to me. I don't believe arming teachers is the answer at all.

[bots]

Honestly, if they want to stop mass killings at schools etc having armed teachers or police/guards is the only realistic solution. We may say WTF over here, but banning guns wont solve anything in the USA, arming people that can protect the kids will

[Niamh.]

Honestly, if they want to stop mass killings at schools etc having armed teachers or police/guards is the only realistic solution. We may say WTF over here, but banning guns wont solve anything in the USA, arming people that can protect the kids will

It worked in Australia

[Livia]

Personally I would risk losing office and put the safety of others, including young children, first.

I understand guns are a big thing in America, I have been to Texas and saw people walking around supermarkets carrying guns but the laws need changing BADLY. I saw something on TV the other day and a 14 year old was refused alcohol, cigatettes and even scratch cards but allowed to buy a gun without a problem, that is insane to me. I don't believe arming teachers is the answer at all.

Oh yes, me too... but it's not hard to predict which way Trump will jump.

You can buy a gun at 18, you can't drink alcohol until you're 21. And I can't see what anyone wants with an automatic or semi automatic weapon unless you're up to no good or prone to showing off... and the Darwin Awards are packed with people showing off...

[Crimson Dynamo]

It worked in Australia

Australia has 20 million people and is nothing at all like the USA in make-up history, politically or geograpically

[Niamh.]

Australia has 20 million people and is nothing at all like the USA in make-up history, politically or geograpically

Similarities are they had a gun problem, they banned guns and sorted it.

[user104658]

Honestly, if they want to stop mass killings at schools etc having armed teachers or police/guards is the only realistic solution. We may say WTF over here, but banning guns wont solve anything in the USA, arming people that can protect the kids will

I sort of agree with this, I think it's too late for gun controls to curb school violence, because it's become a cultural phenomenon sadly. That is to say... at this point, the reason the US has a crazy number of school shootings, is that the US has a crazy number of school shootings. They need to tighten up their gun laws anyway, that's a given, but in terms of school violence... I think sadly, the kids who want to commit these acts would find other ways. It's become a deep rooted social psychology problem amoungst American teens. There are also so many illegal / unregistered weapons in the US already, that I think it would take decades from the point of a ban for it to be actually "difficult" to obtain one, especially with access to the darkweb etc.

That said, an outright ban on high powered / rapid firing weapons could in theory at least limit the number of casualties in each incident over time.

I sort of agree that in the short term, it seems like there needs to be solutions IN schools though. Though I would never advocate arming teachers / having guns IN the classroom. I mean honestly... teachers snap and hit kids sometimes... how long before a teacher with psychological problems flips under pressure and ends up shooting a pupil? Imagine the issues that would end up causing. Imagine then sending your kids to school knowing that their teacher is armed :/. It's not an environment that encourages learning, at all. So personally, my two solutions would be:

1) An armed security guard in the school, with their own secure office (otherwise they're just going to be the first one shot). More than one for larger schools maybe.

2) Secure doors on every classroom that deadbolt from the inside. This would surely limit casualties MASSIVELY if it was as-standard? As soon as a shot is fired, teacher deadbolts the classroom door, and no one is getting in.

[Livia]

MY fiance is from Texas, as some of you know... He doesn't think that the gun laws will ever be changed because it would be a virtually impossible task, and even if it was possible, would probably cause civil unrest. Arming teachers and bolting doors will teach everyone that the state cannot protect you from the bad guys, so you'll have to live in a state of lock-down. What a sad state of affairs...

[Tom4784]

The answer to America's mass shooting problem is not to throw more guns at it. If this came into effect how long would it be until it's a teacher that goes on a rampage?

It's simple really, ban assault rifles (No practical purpose other than to kill other people) and make the background and mental health checks more than just a formality they are now in states like Florida.

[user104658]

MY fiance is from Texas, as some of you know... He doesn't think that the gun laws will ever be changed because it would be a virtually impossible task, and even if it was possible, would probably cause civil unrest. Arming teachers and bolting doors will teach everyone that the state cannot protect you from the bad guys, so you'll have to live in a state of lock-down. What a sad state of affairs...

It seems to be going that way already though... a lot of states do these "armed attack drills", where they sound an alarm and everyone has "roles" assigned like where they're supposed to go and designated people to barricade doors. I mean WTF is that?? How utterly terrifying to have that as part of what constitutes a normal school routine. What a messed up learning environment :umm2:.

I read a story earlier, some mum on facebook being "so proud" of her son because he had volunteered to be one of those who barricades the door at school, saying that "He would rather get killed saving his friends than live knowing that any of them had died". Which is a great attitude to have, and technically yes something to be proud of... except that a ten year old kid shouldn't even be having to think about those sorts of things!

[user104658]

The answer to America's mass shooting problem is not to throw more guns at it. If this came into effect how long would it be until it's a teacher that goes on a rampage?

Well yeah that was my thinking. Teachers sometimes will snap and punch a kid. Teachers sometimes abuse their pupils. How long before a teacher ends up shooting someone? And even without it going that far, I can DEFINITELY see teachers using the fact that they have a gun in their desk as an empty, yet still terrifying, threat.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If the pupils thought that the teacher was packing heat they may behave better

not me though, Id pack my own gun in my bag in case the teacher went rogue

or if people were bothering me

[Tom4784]

Well yeah that was my thinking. Teachers sometimes will snap and punch a kid. Teachers sometimes abuse their pupils. How long before a teacher ends up shooting someone? And even without it going that far, I can DEFINITELY see teachers using the fact that they have a gun in their desk as an empty, yet still terrifying, threat.

Yeah, it's an insane thing to do really, all these pro gun people are wrapping themselves in knots offering up silly suggestions to take gun control off the table when proper gun control laws would not affect responsible owners anyway.

[Oliver_W]

Yeah, it's an insane thing to do really, all these pro gun people are wrapping themselves in knots offering up silly suggestions to take gun control off the table when proper gun control laws would not affect responsible owners anyway.
I think the argument is they wouldn't affect irresponsible owners anyway, with black market purchases...

[Tom4784]

I think the argument is they wouldn't affect irresponsible owners anyway, with black market purchases...

Which aren't all that common as they are made out to be, remember that almost all of these mass shootings are committed legally owned guns. Make it harder for the wrong people to buy guns and these Mass Shootings would stop happening because buying something off the Black Market isn't like popping into Asda for a loaf of bread, if you don't have the knowledge or the connections then you don't have the access to it.

The UK has an illegal gun trade but that doesn't mean we should take back gun laws and give everyone access to one just in case.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Go look at my thread about buying a semi auto rifle on facebook no questions asked

[Niamh.]

Go look at my thread about buying a semi auto rifle on facebook no questions asked

Regardless of that, it's not an argument to have them so readily available to anyone legally

[Crimson Dynamo]

Regardless of that, it's not an argument to have them so readily available to anyone legally

As i have said it would seem that most americans, or the majority think that the odd shooting every now and then in a country of 300m is a fair price to pay.

[thesheriff443]

I dont think you can prevent school shootings, having teachers with guns is a deterrent and could save life's by shooting the kid with a gun.

[Niamh.]

As i have said it would seem that most americans, or the majority think that the odd shooting every now and then in a country of 300m is a fair price to pay.

Clearly the surviving victims of these shootings think otherwise

[Crimson Dynamo]

Clearly the surviving victims of these shootings think otherwise

yes as do lots of other people but thats now how it works in a democracy

[Niamh.]

I dont think you can prevent school shootings, having teachers with guns is a deterrent and could save life's by shooting the kid with a gun.

The University of Sydney, in a 2016 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, found Australia hadn't experienced a fatal mass shooting — one in which five or more people are killed — since the 1996 shooting. In the 18 years prior, 1979-1996, there were 13 fatal mass shootings in Australia.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/15/australia-hasnt-had-fatal-mass-shooting-since-1996-heres-what-did/340345002/

[Niamh.]

yes as do lots of other people but thats now how it works in a democracy

Those in favor of stricter gun legislation outnumber those opposed by a measure of more than two-to-one, according to the poll. Sixty-six percent of respondents said they would support more stringent laws, while just 31% said they would not. That’s the highest favorable percentage ever recorded by a Quinnipiac University National Poll, and a considerable increase from the 47% to 50% split measured in late 2015, according to an announcement from the school released Tuesday.

http://time.com/5167216/americans-gun-control-support-poll-2018/

[montblanc]

yeah how about no

[thesheriff443]

The University of Sydney, in a 2016 study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association, found Australia hadn't experienced a fatal mass shooting — one in which five or more people are killed — since the 1996 shooting. In the 18 years prior, 1979-1996, there were 13 fatal mass shootings in Australia.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/02/15/australia-hasnt-had-fatal-mass-shooting-since-1996-heres-what-did/340345002/
But America was founded on the right to carry arms.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Those in favor of stricter gun legislation outnumber those opposed by a measure of more than two-to-one, according to the poll. Sixty-six percent of respondents said they would support more stringent laws, while just 31% said they would not. That’s the highest favorable percentage ever recorded by a Quinnipiac University National Poll, and a considerable increase from the 47% to 50% split measured in late 2015, according to an announcement from the school released Tuesday.

http://time.com/5167216/americans-gun-control-support-poll-2018/

That is great to vote in a poll like that but its only their state legislators that can do anything about it

[montblanc]

But America was founded on the right to carry arms.

America was founded on a lot of terrible things :skull:

[Niamh.]

But America was founded on the right to carry arms.

How is that an argument against whether gun laws would help against mass shootings? :/ There was no such thing as an assault rifle back when the USA was founded btw

[Beso]

adding more guns is making negative changes not good ones

I think the guns will already be there pet.....arm the teachers then that hero teacher coyld maybe have shot the shooter rather than have to put his body i the line of fire....anyway, im sure teachers have been listened to prior to any decision.

[Niamh.]

That is great to vote in a poll like that but its only their state legislators that can do anything about it

aren't they supposed to be democratic and do what the people want though? I thought that's what you said a minute ago :think:

[montblanc]

i wouldn't feel that safe knowing that my teacher has a gun tbh

[Niamh.]

I think the guns will already be there pet.....arm the teachers then that hero teacher coyld maybe have shot the shooter rather than have to put his body i the line of fire....anyway, im sure teachers have been listened to prior to any decision.

Unless they get an unhinged teacher on a bad day........sugarplum

[Beso]

Unless they get an unhinged teacher on a bad day........sugarplum

Ifs and buts...what if guns were banned..will all the idiots hand them in...no course not....they will hoard them then walk into a school unchallenged breezing from room to room as everyone looks around for a gun that wont be there....8 mins later as the cops arrive......at least give tge kids a fighting chanxe fgs....do you have another idea?

[The Slim Reaper]

He is making changes, unlike his predecesers....i must say though...all these plebs on the streets demanding action....blocking ambulances on emergences...absolute scum.

That is obscenely ignorant I'm afraid. Because of how the American political system works, republicans have prevented anyone even having a vote on stricter laws, because the NRA basically owns them.

As for those plebes on the street, what is an appropriate protest to highlight fact they are getting shot while attending lessons in school?

[montblanc]

That is obscenely ignorant I'm afraid. Because of how the American political system works, republicans have prevented anyone even having a vote on stricter laws, because the NRA basically owns them.

As for those plebes on the street, what is an appropriate protest to highlight fact they are getting shot while attending lessons in school?

!!!

[Oliver_W]

owns them.

As for those plebes on the street, what is an appropriate protest to highlight fact they are getting shot while attending lessons in school?

How many of the people attending that particular protest has been shot at in lessons?

[montblanc]

How many of the people attending that particular protest has been shot at in lessons?

you don't have to experience it to know that it's wrong and protest it?

[Beso]

That is obscenely ignorant I'm afraid. Because of how the American political system works, republicans have prevented anyone even having a vote on stricter laws, because the NRA basically owns them.

As for those plebes on the street, what is an appropriate protest to highlight fact they are getting shot while attending lessons in school?

Ignorant...nah sorry..

Trump is up against exactly the same **** as the former presidents, yet here he is, inviting survivors and teachers to discuss and brainstorm...dont ever remember seeing that before..hes gonna make it harder to get guns...unlike the former presidents....


The plebs on the street would be better advised not to block ambulances on the way to save lives when they are protesting at the loss of life....yes, it would be more appropriate and less scummy not to block ambulances whilst protesting about saving lives.

[Niamh.]

Ifs and buts...what if guns were banned..will all the idiots hand them in...no course not....they will hoard them then walk into a school unchallenged breezing from room to room as everyone looks around for a gun that wont be there....8 mins later as the cops arrive......at least give tge kids a fighting chanxe fgs....do you have another idea?

Yes stricter gun laws

[Crimson Dynamo]

aren't they supposed to be democratic and do what the people want though? I thought that's what you said a minute ago :think:

No a poll for Time is capitalism at work, choosing and petitioning your state legislator is democracy

[Beso]

Yes stricter gun laws

Looks to me like thats what he is striving for.

[Niamh.]

No a poll for Time is capitalism at work, choosing and petitioning your state legislator is democracy

A Poll represents what the public want, what the public want is democracy

Looks to me like thats what he is striving for.

I'll believe that when I see it tbh

[The Slim Reaper]

Ignorant...nah sorry..

Trump is up against exactly the same **** as the former presidents, yet here he is, inviting survivors and teachers to discuss and brainstorm...dont ever remember seeing that before..hes gonna make it harder to get guns...unlike the former presidents....


The plebs on the street would be better advised not to block ambulances on the way to save lives when they are protesting at the loss of life....yes, it would be more appropriate and less scummy not to block ambulances whilst protesting about saving lives.

That's because Obama had his meetings with the families by enforcing a press blackout.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/editorial/opinion--an-hour-by-hour-comparison-of-trump-and-obama-responding-to-school-shootings/2018/02/20/6fa06f66-165b-11e8-930c-45838ad0d77a_video.html?utm_term=.6248fc3e9450

I hate posting that link, because I don't view the situation as a competition between trump and president Obama, but hopefully with more information, you'll be better informed.

Where has the blocking ambulances stuff come from? Were the kids on the street with the intention of blocking them or was it an accident? If it was an accident, do you believe any form of public protest, which is one of the tenets of free speech should be allowed?

[The Slim Reaper]

How many of the people attending that particular protest has been shot at in lessons?

Is this a serious question?

Only people directly affected by issues have the right to stand against them?

[Beso]

No accident...protestors waving others into the path of the ambulance as other protestors cheer and clap if they aint filming on thier phones....have a look, get yourself better informed.

[The Slim Reaper]

No accident...protestors waving others into the path of the ambulance as other protestors cheer and clap if they aint filming on thier phones....have a look, get yourself better informed.

You see, I'm not impervious to outside information. If this is true, then I agree that's not a good thing to do and they should be prosecuted.

Have you got a link?

Have you looked at the link that I provided to you?

[Beso]

You see, I'm not impervious to outside information. If this is true, then I agree that's not a good thing to do and they should be prosecuted.

Have you got a link?

Have you looked at the link that I provided to you?

Yeah i looked...not sure what a meeting with grieving families would achieve without teachers being there but still..it was behind closed doors so i guess we will never know.

[The Slim Reaper]

Yeah i looked...not sure what a meeting with grieving families would achieve without teachers being there but still..it was behind closed doors so i guess we will never know.

https://media1.tenor.com/images/2587bcbb64ced9d41cb4dd1291a37951/tenor.gif?itemid=5403163

[The Slim Reaper]

Trump needed a cheat sheet to remind him to show empathy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWnbuEwW0AA7HHK.jpg

[AnnieK]

I don't know how many fatalities there has to be before America admit the problem, my guess is many more.

When I worked in the States in 97 there was a fatal murder suicide of a lifeguard at the community pool by her steriod addled boyfriend with a legally owned gun in front of families and young children. It was awful, there was outcry, kids were traumatised and most people reacted by further arming themselves. One guy told me he had bought a higher powered gun as the one he had would just make a gunman more pissed off if he shot him with it. For most Americans they believe it is their right to bear arms and so they do....how anyone would begin to tackle the problem there is beyond me.

[Beso]

https://media1.tenor.com/images/2587bcbb64ced9d41cb4dd1291a37951/tenor.gif?itemid=5403163

Pathetic and boring...bye bye.:wavey:

[Jessica.]

Trump needed a cheat sheet to remind him to show empathy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWnbuEwW0AA7HHK.jpg

That is extremely depressing.....

[thesheriff443]

How is that an argument against whether gun laws would help against mass shootings? :/ There was no such thing as an assault rifle back when the USA was founded btw

I'm not arguing , it does not matter if weapons have evolved people will not give up their weapons, my brother has family in Texas on his wife's side they have said they hide their weapons if any law was ever passed to limit them.

[Beso]

That is extremely depressing.....

Whats more depressing is that becoming the story....pathetic.

[Twosugars]

Trump needed a cheat sheet to remind him to show empathy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWnbuEwW0AA7HHK.jpg

I wonder... is he heartless and demented or just demented? :shrug:

[montblanc]

I wonder... is he heartless and demented or just demented? :shrug:

maybe both :hehe:

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWnbuEwW0AA7HHK.jpg

why has he got Neems age on his cuff?

[Marches]

Well yeah why can’t a trained teacher have the means to protect herself and her class instead of letting them get shot or attacked?

But ykno **** trump

[Withano]

Trump needed a cheat sheet to remind him to show empathy.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWnbuEwW0AA7HHK.jpg

Jfc

[GiRTh]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWnbuEwW0AA7HHK.jpg

why has he got Neems age on his cuff?Surely its not to remind himself what number president he is.:umm2:

[The Slim Reaper]

Well yeah why can’t a trained teacher have the means to protect herself and her class instead of letting them get shot or attacked?

But ykno **** trump

A few reasons; when professionals fire guns at people, most of the shots don't actually hit the people they're aiming at, so in an environment with mass panic and kids fleeing everywhere you're now adding another gun into the equation which just doesn't make anyone safer.

What happens if a couple of kids decide to overpower a teacher and take their gun from them?

Again, when professionals deal with these situations, they don't just send one person in to fire back, they secure areas and methodically work their way towards the gunmen (any situation not just schools).

What happens if the professionals arriving at the scene just see a person firing/holding a gun and have a split second to make a decision?

They had an armed guard at columbine, they had armed guards in Florida.

But yno **** logic.

[Maru]

I'll just make some points here and bullet it to keep it simpler...


Several of the laws that people have been talking about in the media already exist. The media and our govt officials know this, and yet they're not mentioning this for some reason?...


Some of the laws we do have, are very poorly enforced. For example, felons are not allowed to obtain guns under any condition and yet they find a way, regardless of our knowing about even who has them, the govt does nothing to act on this information... (might also have to do with overcrowded jails and being short-staffed in many agencies)


It would be a much simpler political feat as well to at least start with fixing the broken system we currently have. Both sides have already reached this consensus? As there is a enough support there to do so. But for some odd, quite unusual reason they keep asking for bans in lieu of fixing the broken system that's already in use... hmm.


Columbine occurred during the assault weapons ban.


Actually, a handgun that I own is semi-automatic as are apparently many are (I have learned this since). So banning weapons that fire at high rates of speeds or use high caliber bullets, that's most anything... my handgun is not an AR-15, but it sure manages a high rate of fire for not being one. (I actually prefer revolvers, more accurate and easier to work with)


Hence, Virginia Tech being done with two pistols and yet killed more people. (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/04/14/va-tech-shooting-gun-laws-debate/100458024/)


Banning bumstocks is nice and all, except you can still make those on your own since. All it is is a piece that you use to easily tap the trigger quicker between pulls. Essentially.


Even more home-made solutions will become the reality when 3D printing evolves to be able to work with metal well-enough. Maybe even make entire weapons. Especially compartmentalized systems such as the AR-15, which is basically any combination of parts that you can imagine... it's not all one solid gun. That's why it's so ridiculous popular, is that it's highly customizable and can be tailored for different types of use (including hunting).


As for other reasons the AR-15 ban is not going to just change things... here's a short-ish video... to keep my post shorter...
f0WgYfqgoHQ


The background checks do need to be more robust. Especially if someone is committed to a facility, then there needs to be a checklist... if that person has a violent history, then they need to be able to prohibit their ability to buy guns up to a certain period (pending approval) not only to prevent them from harming others, but themselves... I'm all about improving these systems. I just don't think bans will stop the wrong people from obtaining weapons...

I did agree with AR-15 age restriction up to a mid 20's (to allow mental illnesses to fully appear)... but after learning that my own handgun can handle a similar rate of fire, it wouldn't make a bit of a difference...

Here is a video...(fast forward to 4minutes to see rate of fire)
5RyHpxjiXsc


Another issue I have, the politicians who are demanding we have more laws, know even less about guns than probably most here as they don't do their research. That's been proven the past few days by many of the stupid things being said in the media...without making my post much too long, let's just say there are things that should be completely banned, but then there are a lot of things that aren't, because of the way stupid laws are written... and it's because they're written by uninformed citizens who only care about scoring political points and know jack all about weapons...


Last point, as it's not being discussed at all... gun homicides have actually been cut in half since the 90's... it might be worth looking into the statistics (http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2013/05/07/gun-homicide-rate-down-49-since-1993-peak-public-unaware/) to see if there are other areas we can improve in as well to keep them going down...

Also not surprising given the media's own ignorance...

https://i.imgur.com/904D7Zq.jpg



So as to the thread topic, I don't disagree with teachers having the ability to arm themselves. It shouldn't be compulsory though, just simply their choice. If the govt is incompetent, which let's be honest govt typically is, then citizens should have every right to protect themselves and each other... this is the moral thing to do, not to pander to rhetoric...

Anyway, we can keep pushing for more laws and more laws, but in the end it won't keep criminals from being able to obtain them and thus citizens should be able to protect themselves. And with as many weapons in the US as there are today and also coming through black market from places like Mexico i.e. drugs, etc, that's a lot to ask of law-abiding citizens I think... whichever way we want to look at it...

[Tom4784]

America was not founded on the right to bear arms, it was an amendment and not even the first one....

[Withano]

sRGp0S7qZLw

[GoldHeart]

America was not founded on the right to bear arms, it was an amendment and not even the first one....

If they had proper gun control then there wouldn't be an insane debate about teachers carrying guns :bored: .

Has to be the worst idea!, Literally teachers with guns in schools which are supposed to be a safe & nurturing environment. Teachers baring arms will just make the situation a million times worse especially when innocent children are around and I can guarantee they'd be more casualties :facepalm:.

[Marsh.]

So he'd rather try and lessen the number of dead children by having the perpetrator themselves shot sooner by a member of staff in the school itself.

Rather than maybe prevent the shooting altogether by stopping handing assault rifles out like candy.

[Beso]

A few reasons; when professionals fire guns at people, most of the shots don't actually hit the people they're aiming at, so in an environment with mass panic and kids fleeing everywhere you're now adding another gun into the equation which just doesn't make anyone safer.

What happens if a couple of kids decide to overpower a teacher and take their gun from them?

Again, when professionals deal with these situations, they don't just send one person in to fire back, they secure areas and methodically work their way towards the gunmen (any situation not just schools).

What happens if the professionals arriving at the scene just see a person firing/holding a gun and have a split second to make a decision?

They had an armed guard at columbine, they had armed guards in Florida.

But yno **** logic.

At least the teachers would be in the building making it harder for them to run away like say, an armed guard standing at the gates.

[Marches]

If there was better gun control this wouldn’t even be a debate

Ffs America sort out ur gun control stop giving rifles to people that made it obvious af they were gonna do something...l

[Crimson Dynamo]

There was an armed guard at that Florida school but he was too afraid to enter the school


he has resigned


!

[thesheriff443]

The argument about teachers not having guns is like saying the cops should not have guns just a selection of cuddle toys and game consoles to bring the killing to an end.

Someone can tick all the boxes and still end up killing lots of people.

[bots]

It's much easier to enforce gun control when the effectiveness of using them is reduced. The first priority is surely to protect the vulnerable from harm. Once that is a priority and enforced, the usefulness of having a weapon will be diminished.

[The Slim Reaper]

At least the teachers would be in the building making it harder for them to run away like say, an armed guard standing at the gates.

Again, you just willfully ignore the content in order to spew out throw away nonsense. It may add some weight to your ideas if you actually addressed the issues raised and tried to counter them.

It's really easy to talk with such bravado when it's someone else's life. The fact this trained armed guard lost his nerve was a really sad incident, but it happens with trained soldiers too. Personally I'd like to think I'd run in there with my gun and take him out, but this isn't TV and I'm not Jack Bauer. I have no idea how I would react in that situation and neither do you.

Teachers are educators not soldiers and schools are places of learning, not battlefields. If the solution to school shootings is throwing more guns into the mix, rather than taking them away then that just seems insane.

There is no good reason for any civilian to have a gun.

[Niamh.]

A few reasons; when professionals fire guns at people, most of the shots don't actually hit the people they're aiming at, so in an environment with mass panic and kids fleeing everywhere you're now adding another gun into the equation which just doesn't make anyone safer.

What happens if a couple of kids decide to overpower a teacher and take their gun from them?

Again, when professionals deal with these situations, they don't just send one person in to fire back, they secure areas and methodically work their way towards the gunmen (any situation not just schools).

What happens if the professionals arriving at the scene just see a person firing/holding a gun and have a split second to make a decision?

They had an armed guard at columbine, they had armed guards in Florida.

But yno **** logic.

Also, do teachers actually want to be armed? Has anyone even asked them if they'd be ok with that?

[The Slim Reaper]

The argument about teachers not having guns is like saying the cops should not have guns just a selection of cuddle toys and game consoles to bring the killing to an end.

Someone can tick all the boxes and still end up killing lots of people.

I'll take "two things that aren't even remotely similar" for £500.

[Niamh.]

The argument about teachers not having guns is like saying the cops should not have guns just a selection of cuddle toys and game consoles to bring the killing to an end.

Someone can tick all the boxes and still end up killing lots of people.

How did you get to that comparison? A teacher is there to teach, that's their job, a Police Officers job is to tackle criminals

[Crimson Dynamo]

Also, do teachers actually want to be armed? Has anyone even asked them if they'd be ok with that?

Id imagine a large proportion already have a gun

[Niamh.]

Id imagine a large proportion already have a gun

That's not what I'm asking and it's also a guess on your part. I'd like to know their actual opinions on the proposal

[The Slim Reaper]

Also, do teachers actually want to be armed? Has anyone even asked them if they'd be ok with that?

Well of course they do. Everyone knows that Mr Davies in 2nd period geography is desperate to pop a cap in a couple of homeboys asses.

[AnnieK]

Also, do teachers actually want to be armed? Has anyone even asked them if they'd be ok with that?

Yeah, that was my initial thought. Can't think of many teachers who go into the profession on the fact that one day, maybe, Tommy will go crazy and they can then do their best hero impression and save the school.

Its a massive responsibility to put on someone and would never work for the multiple reasons already discussed in this thread.

[Niamh.]

Yeah, that was my initial thought. Can't think of many teachers who go into the profession on the fact that one day, maybe, Tommy will go crazy and they can then do their best hero impression and save the school.

Its a massive responsibility to put on someone and would never work for the multiple reasons already discussed in this thread.

Yeah, when I heard it first I thought, ah come on that's absolute madness, I'm actually shocked that some people think it's a great idea tbh

[Crimson Dynamo]

That's not what I'm asking and it's also a guess on your part. I'd like to know their actual opinions on the proposal

Well that is not possible but Id imagine that you could get a stat on how many teachers have guns

[Niamh.]

Like I would be more nervous to know that there was going to be guns in the classroom than worry about there being a possible school shooting. It's creating a potential situation imo. Like I'm pretty sure I read that it's more common for people to accidentally get hurt or killed by their own guns/kids getting their hands on those guns than people being saved from bad guys with those same guns

[Crimson Dynamo]

The gun would be kept in a locked drawer

and the key would be on a hook by the door


:skull:

[thesheriff443]

How did you get to that comparison? A teacher is there to teach, that's their job, a Police Officers job is to tackle criminals

The guns are not going any where soon!, in the mean time at least have some sort of protection for the teachers and kids.

Bad guys have guns but the good guys need them too, people on here talk like hippies and flower power.

[Niamh.]

The guns are not going any where soon!, in the mean time at least have some sort of protection for the teachers and kids.

Bad guys have guns but the good guys need them too, people on here talk like hippies and flower power.

How patronising. Hippy and flower power is not my way of thinking actually, it's more adding more guns into the mix will probably end up creating more situations rather than solving them.

Gun ownership doubled the risk of homicide and tripled the risk of suicide. This research is bolstered by a national survey that found that a gun in the home was far more likely to be used to threaten a family member or intimate partner than to be used in self-defense.

http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/medical_examiner/2015/01/good_guy_with_a_gun_myth_guns_increase_the_risk_of _homicide_accidents_suicide.html

[Maru]

Like I would be more nervous to know that there was going to be guns in the classroom than worry about there being a possible school shooting. It's creating a potential situation imo. Like I'm pretty sure I read that it's more common for people to accidentally get hurt or killed by their own guns/kids getting their hands on those guns than people being saved from bad guys with those same guns

That's because you're not culturally conditioned to be around guns. Many Americans are, and so this isn't really a stretch for those folk... my husband carries (mainly because of his risk of retaliation due to his law enforcement job) and it's concealed. 99% of the time I forget he's even carrying...

I imagine anything the teachers bring in would be concealed and people wouldn't even know they are carrying... and there are months of background checks involved with conceal carry permits, at least here. It took my husband several months to get his carry and he had to divulge a mountain of information to even apply... and that's how it really should work, with very strict screening methods.

We have open carry, but it's rare to see anyone use it here (I've yet to see it myself). Prior to open carry, most who carry on the hip where it is visible are law enforcement officers or are part of some kind of security detail.

Despite this, many shops can have state mandated signage up where they can prohibit citizens to not bring in weapons (there's different signs for open and concealed). Doing so is a major violation of the law. And I doubt there would be open carry in schools, unless it were a security detail such as school police...

Honestly, I prefer this to the giant brick walls they're throwing up around the schools in our area. They look so depressing when I've driven by. The schools I grew up in now have Catholic private school-esk fencing and they've always had police, but seems like they try to be more visible than before. They also put in metal detectors. Mainly because of gang activity and them bringing in weapons, but yeah...

If an AR ban would actually work, then I think many more people would be in support of it.... but Columbine occurred during the last AR ban so... yeah.

[Niamh.]

I don't think we're ever going to be on the same page about this tbh Maru. To me, a teacher coming into a school with a gun on them is horrific

[Maru]

I don't think we're ever going to be on the same page about this tbh Maru. To me, a teacher coming into a school with a gun on them is horrific

And that's fine. :love:

[thesheriff443]

To quote arista, it's a sign of the times.

[Livia]

I find the whole notion of arming teachers unworkable. Being responsible for a class is one thing, being responsible for their safety against a shooter is too much to ask. Anything can happen... highly trained soldiers and police officers make mistakes, suppose a teacher accidentally shot someone other than the shooter. How would they be affected legally? Mentally? And of course, it would mean the teacher was the first target.

I think until they sort out their archaic gun laws, every school needs and airport-style security entrance.

[Vicky.]

Yup..the solution to shootings in schools is definitely to put more guns into schools.

However, I did see this yesterday, but then on the news apparently he was denying saying this and saying teachers just needed training but no guns, AND THEN later on he was apparently saying that the gun laws need to be tightened. Like, his opinion did a Uturn over the space of a few hours.

Even if arming teachers was a good solution (its not)..are they going to pay these teachers more given they are now teachers + police..expected to chase down gunmen or stand up in the middle of it all to try and shoot a student? Will they be safe from being sued, if they shoot someone else by mistake? And so on. Its just nuts.

But America will never give up its guns..no matter what happens so all discussion is futile

[Niamh.]

Yup..the solution to shootings in schools is definitely to put more guns into schools.

However, I did see this yesterday, but then on the news apparently he was denying saying this and saying teachers just needed training but no guns, AND THEN later on he was apparently saying that the gun laws need to be tightened. Like, his opinion did a Uturn over the space of a few hours.

Even if arming teachers was a good solution (its not)..are they going to pay these teachers more given they are now teachers + police..expected to chase down gunmen or stand up in the middle of it all to try and shoot a student? Will they be safe from being sued, if they shoot someone else by mistake? And so on. Its just nuts.

But America will never give up its guns..no matter what happens so all discussion is futile

Exactly, LT keeps raising the point that alot of these teachers may already own guns and they might but for all the reasons you've just stated that doesn't mean they want to be a designated Police Officer/Sniper should a student decide to go rogue. Look at the scrutney a Police Officer faces when someone is shot, why would a teacher want to put themselves in that kind of a situation when it isn't even their job

[Crimson Dynamo]

Exactly, LT keeps raising the point that alot of these teachers may already own guns and they might but for all the reasons you've just stated that doesn't mean they want to be a designated Police Officer/Sniper should a student decide to go rogue. Look at the scrutney a Police Officer faces when someone is shot, why would a teacher want to put themselves in that kind of a situation when it isn't even their job

one magic thing would make this job very attractive to a teacher


$

[Vicky.]

one magic thing would make this job very attractive to a teacher


$

Are they willing to give teachers a salary that includes

Teaching
Security guard
Armed police

Which would mean tripling the wages at the very least

Along with giving them training in all of these areas? I doubt it.

[Niamh.]

one magic thing would make this job very attractive to a teacher


$

It would want to be a hell of a lot of money, the potential down sides are huge

[Crimson Dynamo]

It would want to be a hell of a lot of money, the potential down sides are huge

Its America, the dollar bill is King

[Niamh.]

Its America, the dollar bill is King

Ok Arista :laugh:

[The Slim Reaper]

one magic thing would make this job very attractive to a teacher


$

A teaching qualification is a degree course but the teaching profession is poorly paid. The kind of person that goes into teaching isn't doing it for money to begin with, so throwing more at them is the wrong answer to the wrong question.

[Crimson Dynamo]

A teaching qualification is a degree course but the teaching profession is poorly paid. The kind of person that goes into teaching isn't doing it for money to begin with, so throwing more at them is the wrong answer to the wrong question.

If they are poorly paid they will welcome the extra money, for sure

[The Slim Reaper]

If they are poorly paid they will welcome the extra money, for sure

It's not just extra free money though, is it? When US soldiers are killed in action, their families receive 100,000 USD, when teachers are killed in action, they are removed from school salary outgoings.

I would leave the profession rather than take on these extra duties. Trumps budget actually cuts money for school security.

The whole debate is absurd; the American people are strongly in favour of gun control and regulations, yet politicians being paid by the NRA are able to even prevent them having to debate it.

Arming teachers fails to attack the root cause of the problem. You can't just throw more guns into the mix and let everyone have an old weststyle shootout. Take the guns away from the people because they are unnecessary.

If the government wanted to kill every American citizen, there is not a thing they could do about it, even with all 370m guns in the country. They could just hide in their bunkers, and send drones/chemicals, so even the initial reason for allowing/encouraging them is outdated.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's not just extra free money though, is it? When US soldiers are killed in action, their families receive 100,000 USD, when teachers are killed in action, they are removed from school salary outgoings.

I would leave the profession rather than take on these extra duties. Trumps budget actually cuts money for school security.

The whole debate is absurd; the American people are strongly in favour of gun control and regulations, yet politicians being paid by the NRA are able to even prevent them having to debate it.

Arming teachers fails to attack the root cause of the problem. You can't just throw more guns into the mix and let everyone have an old weststyle shootout. Take the guns away from the people because they are unnecessary.

If the government wanted to kill every American citizen, there is not a thing they could do about it, even with all 370m guns in the country. They could just hide in their bunkers, and send drones/chemicals, so even the initial reason for allowing/encouraging them is outdated.

"The whole debate is absurd; the American people are strongly in favour of gun control and regulations, yet politicians being paid by the NRA are able to even prevent them having to debate it. "


You have not long ago had an election and elected a very republican candidate so what you say obviously isnt quite true is it.

[The Slim Reaper]

"The whole debate is absurd; the American people are strongly in favour of gun control and regulations, yet politicians being paid by the NRA are able to even prevent them having to debate it. "


You have not long ago had an election and elected a very republican candidate so what you say obviously isnt quite true is it.

I'm not sure how you can link those 2 things. Elections are about more than one thing, and a lot of democrats actually live in fear of the NRA too. Republicans are more pro gun statistically, but if I wish to use your logic I could just simply point out that if the US was so pro-gun, then how has a post civil rights act Democrat ever been elected?

[user104658]

They're also overlooking something totally fundamental here:

What they're essentially expecting, is for a teacher to aim and fire at someone who is likely to be a student that they have known for years. Now... WW2 stats show that a huge percentage of conscripted SOLDIERS (on both sides) never fired their rifles, or deliberately aimed high, so that they wouldn't actually have to kill anyone. It's one of the reasons that most countries have completely replaced conscription with paid / trained army - because it takes a lot of psychological prep (and a few psychological "tricks") to turn normal people into effective killers.

So basically... there's a very high chance that the vast majority of these "armed teachers" won't actually pull the trigger when it comes down to it, or at the very least, will hesitate for long enough to be shot first.

[thesheriff443]

If you don't have kids going to school in America, it actually means nothing to anyone on this forum, we are just chewing the fat.

[thesheriff443]

In fact you can be as outrageous as you want in this thread because it's all talk and no trousers.

[Niamh.]

They're also overlooking something totally fundamental here:

What they're essentially expecting, is for a teacher to aim and fire at someone who is likely to be a student that they have known for years. Now... WW2 stats show that a huge percentage of conscripted SOLDIERS (on both sides) never fired their rifles, or deliberately aimed high, so that they wouldn't actually have to kill anyone. It's one of the reasons that most countries have completely replaced conscription with paid / trained army - because it takes a lot of psychological prep (and a few psychological "tricks") to turn normal people into effective killers.

So basically... there's a very high chance that the vast majority of these "armed teachers" won't actually pull the trigger when it comes down to it, or at the very least, will hesitate for long enough to be shot first.

Yeah well isn't that what happened with the on campus Police guy and he was a trained police officer (incidentally I think the backlash he's getting is disgusting)

[Livia]

Yeah well isn't that what happened with the on campus Police guy and he was a trained police officer (incidentally I think the backlash he's getting is disgusting)

Yes, me too.

[jet]

Similarities are they had a gun problem, they banned guns and sorted it.

I agree, ban guns and to hell with the gun lobbyists. No - one needs a gun to protect themselves if nobody else has a gun.

[Tom4784]

What happens when the Teacher panics in the chaos and accidentally shoot the wrong person? Or, if there's a misunderstanding and a teacher shoots someone they perceive to be a threat when they aren't? It happens enough with trained officers in America, is giving untrained teachers who aren't likely mentally prepared for that kind of situation a gun really the best idea?

[bots]

I don't think teachers is a particularly good idea but armed guards/police are. This also isn't only about guns, its about America breeding generations of people that think their only course of action is to go shoot up a school. Why isn't there more focus on that side of things too

[Vicky.]

966495718478417921

[Marches]

You wouldn’t do a shooting if u thought u would die before u got to kill anyone even these psychopaths know that

[Marches]

I agree, ban guns and to hell with the gun lobbyists. No - one needs a gun to protect themselves if nobody else has a gun.

Other means of killing people exist?

But yeah let’s unarm the law obiding citizens because some people don’t like the look of guns so that criminals have an easier time whisk we sit here hide in a cupboard and wait for the police to arrive

Like ffs this forum is full of leftist ideal world escapist idiots that are trying to propose ideas that only work in the ideal world they created I can’t deal with this anymore

[thesheriff443]

Other means of killing people exist?

But yeah let’s unarm the law obiding citizens because some people don’t like the look of guns so that criminals have an easier time whisk we sit here hide in a cupboard and wait for the police to arrive

Like ffs this forum is full of leftist ideal world escapist idiots that are trying to propose ideas that only work in the ideal world they created I can’t deal with this anymore

Trust me! You are not alone.

[Marsh.]

If you don't have kids going to school in America, it actually means nothing to anyone on this forum, we are just chewing the fat.

Well, if discussing news and world events/politics was predicated on what actually involves us, SD would be a very empty place.

[Marsh.]

Other means of killing people exist?

You'd be hard pressed to find another weapon that can cause massacres on the scale of guns.

[The Slim Reaper]

Other means of killing people exist?

But yeah let’s unarm the law obiding citizens because some people don’t like the look of guns so that criminals have an easier time whisk we sit here hide in a cupboard and wait for the police to arrive

Like ffs this forum is full of leftist ideal world escapist idiots that are trying to propose ideas that only work in the ideal world they created I can’t deal with this anymore

A science-based liberal country (leftist ideal world escapistan), based on the ideas and writings of people like Thomas Paine and Voltaire has never actually existed, so we have no way to know how it would pan out.

I think it's fairly clear that the world is in a bit of a mess right now, so we can keep moving further and further to the right, or we can try to inject some common sense and rationality into the discussion.

I do think the most illuminating aspect of this thread is the fact that we have many people explaining why it's a bat**** crazy idea, and then we have the other side of the discussion not really offering any type of counter other than give them more guns and money, with a few ridiculous one sentence idioms thrown in for good measure.

[Marsh.]

Other means of killing people exist?

But yeah let’s unarm the law obiding citizens because some people don’t like the look of guns so that criminals have an easier time whisk we sit here hide in a cupboard and wait for the police to arrive

Like ffs this forum is full of leftist ideal world escapist idiots that are trying to propose ideas that only work in the ideal world they created I can’t deal with this anymore

People who view the world differently to you are "idiots"? Well aren't you a ray of sunshine.

"Don't like the look of guns" yeah, that's the one. Nothing to do with the absolutely disgusting loss of life that could've easily been avoided in another situation.

[jet]

Other means of killing people exist?

But yeah let’s unarm the law obiding citizens because some people don’t like the look of guns so that criminals have an easier time whisk we sit here hide in a cupboard and wait for the police to arrive

Like ffs this forum is full of leftist ideal world escapist idiots that are trying to propose ideas that only work in the ideal world they created I can’t deal with this anymore

How many USA school kids get murdered per year with guns compared to the UK and other European countries? The USA should have the same gun laws as we do. How many law abiding citizens in the UK do you know that owns a gun?

[GoldHeart]

How many USA school kids get murdered per year with guns compared to the UK and other European countries? The USA should have the same gun laws as we do. How many law abiding citizens in the UK do you know that owns a gun?

I hope people realise Trump even expects school kids to be armed , that's what he means when he says "kids should protect themselves" . And he thinks if teachers have concealed guns then everything will be ok :bored: he's a crazy lunatic!! .

It's so easy to scape goat this police campus guy as well, poor guy has resigned . He was 1 person and I bet if he intervened people would still slag him down or he'd lose his life .

[Niamh.]

I hope people realise Trump even expects school kids to be armed , that's what he means when he says "kids should protect themselves" . And he thinks if teachers have concealed guns then everything will be ok :bored: he's a crazy lunatic!! .

It's so easy to scape goat this police campus guy as well, poor guy has resigned . He was 1 person and I bet if he intervened people would still slag him down or he'd lose his life .He's a nice deflection for them though blame him instead of looking at the gun laws

[Kizzy]

The whole thing is like some black mirror episode... it's just so bizarre I'm just waiting everyday for the next crazy thing to happen :/

[thesheriff443]

You'd be hard pressed to find another weapon that can cause massacres on the scale of guns.

Il thrown in a bomb.

[Marsh.]

Il thrown in a bomb.
Yeah a common thing to be carried around and sold to the general public with laws giving everyone the right to own one.

Good one. :thumbs:

[Beso]

Im sure the gun carrying teacher will have been well vetted, and trained.

[Beso]

The whole thing is like some black mirror episode... it's just so bizarre I'm just waiting everyday for the next crazy thing to happen :/



Thats life.:sad:

[Smithy]

The President is the spokesperson for the democratic majority of people in America


Actually the MAJORITY voted for Hilary :idc:

[Smithy]

Im sure the gun carrying teacher will have been well vetted, and trained.

Just like the all the other guns they hand out in America eh? :joker::joker:

[Maru]

Yeeeah....

BREAKING: CNN Reports FOUR Broward County Deputies Waited Outside School As Children Were Massacred
https://www.dailywire.com/news/27523/breaking-cnn-reports-four-broward-county-deputies-ben-shapiro

Quoted @ CNN

When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.

I posted another thread, there's some documentation going around that are obviously only rumors at this point, but apparently some of the media are looking into it. Supposedly Broward County Sheriff's Office had a policy to not arrest students (they had a specific quota), so that the school district got federal grant money for improving their stats.

It's apparently so rampant now that school police are not only in on the scheme, it's an open secret with criminals and gangs that they can use high school students to commit their worst stuff at certain times of the month... because they know it is almost guaranteed they won't arrest them.

Whatever their policy is, something isn't adding up about their response to all this.

[Twosugars]

Like ffs this forum is full of leftist ideal world escapist idiots that are trying to propose ideas that only work in the ideal world they created I can’t deal with this anymore

Take a chill pill and stop calling forum members idiots.
This is a discussion, not a council of war to save the world. Trump is not waiting to action our ideas.

[Ammi]

...if teachers were to be armed, they wouldn’t be just armed to protect...they would be armed to attack also...equally as much as a student would...a teacher could just as easily use a weapon against students or a colleague/parent etc..it’s just the dumbest of thought processes to add more weapons to an overused weapon system, that isn’t a ‘fix’ at all...and from the recent stories of there being more armed sheriffs outside who didn’t ‘act’...?...they were armed so it isn’t about the arming of and carrying of guns being the issue...it makes me wonder if the gun freedom in America is such now, that even trained officers are ‘reluctant’...that it’s all got to a situation where it’s deterring them from doing their jobs out of fear...or in some cases, the opposite...of over reactions from some, when firing an arm can be done to readily before assessments seem to have been made and where life could have possibly been preserved...so extremes could be starting to unfold and be created etc through a system/..a way of life which is just quite crazy...gun crazy...

[Macie Lightfoot]

That's not what I'm asking and it's also a guess on your part. I'd like to know their actual opinions on the proposal

Nearly every teacher I've talked to thinks the idea of having armed teachers in the classroom is insanely absurd and would cause them to quit the profession :)

[bots]

The other disadvantage to arming teachers is that then provides a ready supply of weapons within the school and that is sure to be abused by students, so it could easily put students at even greater risk. It would have to be armed guards or police.

[Ammi]

Nearly every teacher I've talked to thinks the idea of having armed teachers in the classroom is insanely absurd and would cause them to quit the profession :)

...it would be the same in any profession, wouldn’t it Macie...yeah, I’ll give you the waiter../..waitressing job, just carry this gun under the tray at all times in case of crazy customers who might open fire on you at any moment...yes ok, that sounds all very reasonable to me, I feel quite safe and assured now, how very thoughtful...well don’t thank me, thank Mr Trump...

[Ammi]

The other disadvantage to arming teachers is that then provides a ready supply of weapons within the school and that is sure to be abused by students, so it could easily put students at even greater risk. It would have to be armed guards or police.

..there were armed people present outside who didn’t act..so I don’t think ‘arming’ is the solution, whatever official role that person has...

[Ammi]

..guns have bred guns, have bred guns, have bred guns, have bred guns..and now the guns are killing the children...:sad:...America learn and remove the guns.../...tighten control, don’t breed more guns...

[Niamh.]

The whole thing is like some black mirror episode... it's just so bizarre I'm just waiting everyday for the next crazy thing to happen :/[emoji23] it actually is

[Niamh.]

Nearly every teacher I've talked to thinks the idea of having armed teachers in the classroom is insanely absurd and would cause them to quit the profession :)That's not at all surprising, such a ridiculous idea

[GoldHeart]

That's not at all surprising, such a ridiculous idea

It's going to get to a stage where America will be like a crazy apocalyptic place where every citizen , including kids carries a weapon of their choice from guns to knives you name it anything they can get their hands on :facepalm:.

It will be every man for themselves like the world is going to end , people will justify bashing someone's brain out as "self defense" :umm2: .utter carnage !! . Schools are suppose to feel safe for students ,but if teachers carry guns then it's going to make kids feel uneasy .

[lime]

Yeeeah....

BREAKING: CNN Reports FOUR Broward County Deputies Waited Outside School As Children Were Massacred
https://www.dailywire.com/news/27523/breaking-cnn-reports-four-broward-county-deputies-ben-shapiro

Quoted @ CNN



I posted another thread, there's some documentation going around that are obviously only rumors at this point, but apparently some of the media are looking into it. Supposedly Broward County Sheriff's Office had a policy to not arrest students (they had a specific quota), so that the school district got federal grant money for improving their stats.

It's apparently so rampant now that school police are not only in on the scheme, it's an open secret with criminals and gangs that they can use high school students to commit their worst stuff at certain times of the month... because they know it is almost guaranteed they won't arrest them.

Whatever their policy is, something isn't adding up about their response to all this.
You Know what Maru..you come across as a loving parent.I come from Africa so I know the importance of having a weapon...but your post that I have quoted comes across to me and many globaly as blame anyone but the gun laws....there is something wrong in America right now.....why must citizenes be militrised

[Maru]

You Know what Maru..you come across as a loving parent.I come from Africa so I know the importance of having a weapon...but your post that I have quoted comes across to me and many globaly as blame anyone but the gun laws....there is something wrong in America right now.....why must citizenes be militrised

I do think the gun laws need major improvement, for example, private sale should be handled through an intermediary so background checks are done. That is a major and often undiscussed loophole. It wouldn't have helped in Parkland though as it was an institutional failure, which is another issue. (edit)

For all the leaks and failures, the rallying cry seems to think the only solution is ban things and run and hide in a corner. Most by folk who have either never owned or are being quite judgemental (which is understandable) so they don't understand that most of the laws they've asked for are either already a law, using false terms or what they're asking is actually a full ban using theur logic... (edit) this is where advocates start to poo poo the stuff being said.. most ppl here want gun laws improved... just not the type the media outcry would have you think would be most effective (thats why some think their agenda is really to push for a total ban)

I do not want schools to give teachers the JOB of protecting the students. However, if a teacher already has a carry permit, then I'm open to them being able to bring it on campus as long as the holster is secure and they've passed background. I don't think it should be allowed across the board as one size fits all because that is assinine. It is legal here already but it should be up to the school to ban, etc if they don't want them on their campus like it is with local businesses...

There is no one size fits solution to this though. That's just too idealistic.

[Maru]

Wow

967935040847048706

967964856812032000

[lime]

I do think the gun laws need major improvement, for example, private sale should be handled through an intermediary so background checks are done. That is a major and often undiscussed loophole. It wouldn't have helped in Parkland though as it was an institutional failure, which is another issue. (edit)

For all the leaks and failures, the rallying cry seems to think the only solution is ban things and run and hide in a corner. Most by folk who have either never owned or are being quite judgemental (which is understandable) so they don't understand that most of the laws they've asked for are either already a law, using false terms or what they're asking is actually a full ban using theur logic... (edit) this is where advocates start to poo poo the stuff being said.. most ppl here want gun laws improved... just not the type the media outcry would have you think would be most effective (thats why some think their agenda is really to push for a total ban)
I do not want schools to give teachers the JOB of protecting the students. However, if a teacher already has a carry permit, then I'm open to them being able to bring it on campus as long as the holster is secure and they've passed background. I don't think it should be allowed across the board as one size fits all because that is assinine. It is legal here already but it should be up to the school to ban, etc if they don't want them on their campus like it is with local businesses...

There is no one size fits solution to this though. That's just too idealistic.
I maru like many others have no plan to ban Americans from holding weapons..what is bizare to to us is the need to hold a Auto or a semi Auto weapon..they are military weapons

[Maru]

I maru like many others have no plan to ban Americans from holding weapons..what is bizare to to us is the need to hold a Auto or a semi Auto weapon..they are military weapons

Fully automatic weapons are already banned and have been since the 80's. Semi-auto are most handguns... all it is means is that you don't have to rack the weapon to fire another shot. It has nothing to do with being a "military" style weapon...

[Twosugars]

But why do Americans need guns in the first place? At what point, for an average civilian, is a gun necessary to lead their lives?

The argument that the country was founded on guns? That was back then and now is now. Back then they had native Americans to kill to steal their land. What's the excuse now?

[Maru]

But why do Americans need guns in the first place? At what point, for an average civilian, is a gun necessary to lead their lives?

The argument that the country was founded on guns? That was back then and now is now. Back then they had native Americans to kill to steal their land. What's the excuse now?

It comes down to our founding philosophy.

The overarching ideal is not just about guns or even tyranny. 2A itself is about self-preservation (that could also mean feeding yourself) as much as it is linking to our founding desire to be independent of the state and hold the most power over the state. This means we are freer as individuals, but on the other hand, we are solely responsible for our way in life and consequences as individiauls. Because we are sovereign and therefore there isn't as high of a dependence on govt... so theoretically, it wouldn't need to grow any larger than is fundamentally necessary for society to function. This is where conservative ideals largely are based upon, this founding philosophy of individualism.

If we are dependent on ourselves for protection for example, then we don't need police the same way as we would need them in areas where there are stricter gun control. But in general, the idea is that more power (not necessarily defense capabilities) stays with the people, and less with the govt... 2A was put there to ensure that we wouldn't be lulled into a false sense of security again as a safeguard... like we were during the revolution. Many of the people in colonies wanted to pursue a new quality of life, one they crafted themselves, 100% on their own terms, to be completely free to make their own choices... and so the idea was that they did not want a big brother to be involved in how they conduct their business, thus has shaped our independent spirit as a nation.

For example, in states that have very strict gun laws, they tend to have a militarized police force, more laws, more regulations to accommodate. As they are more reliant on the state for those needs, their encroachment and footprint into daily life is much more palpable, their taxes are much higher, and their rights are fewer. And that tends to extend beyond security... it tends to lead to govt dominating other facets of life as well. (edit)

But many people here feel we should only be accountable for ourselves. We don't need a govt or other people to come in and tell us how to conduct our business. That's the concept of protecting the "good guys"... that just because there are a few bad guys, doesn't mean we want our rights to be removed. We can and should self-manage, as we had since founding and it's shaped our culture to be stronger as a result. So certain segments of govt growing too large or interfering in our lives is highly controversial as it contradicts basically the foundation of our traditions. Yes, there's a rise in certain crime as a result of this higher responsibility on the public, as we see more gun crime to some degree, more poverty due to being responsible for our own choices, etc... but there is no systemic failure if there is no overarching system in place there to help "manage" everything ... that's why these ideals are so contentious and controversial throughout public discourse... it's just people have forgotten why we have the rights we do or aren't being taught the significance of certain history (yay ****ty education) beyond "guns go bang" "so what if I don't like guns that go bang?", etc

Our constitution was never meant for this pseudo-socialist, 200 page bills, huge govt mess. That's why our system is so broken and people are so frustrated. It's also why some people are hanging onto the 2A and will never allow it to be repealed. There are a lot of us who maybe own one home defense weapon and are strongly pro-2A... just because we love our country how it was, we don't want this abomination it's become...

[Twosugars]

It comes down to our founding philosophy.

The overarching ideal is not just about guns or even tyranny. 2A itself is about self-preservation (that could also mean feeding yourself) as much as it is linking to our founding desire to be independent of the state and hold the most power over the state. This means we are freer as individuals, but on the other hand, we are solely responsible for our way in life and consequences as individiauls. Because we are sovereign and therefore there isn't as high of a dependence on govt... so theoretically, it wouldn't need to grow any larger than is fundamentally necessary for society to function. This is where conservative ideals largely are based upon, this founding philosophy of individualism.

If we are dependent on ourselves for protection for example, then we don't need police the same way as we would need them in areas where there are stricter gun control. But in general, the idea is that more power (not necessarily defense capabilities) stays with the people, and less with the govt... 2A was put there to ensure that we wouldn't be lulled into a false sense of security again as a safeguard... like we were during the revolution. Many of the people in colonies wanted to pursue a new quality of life, one they crafted themselves, 100% on their own terms, to be completely free to make their own choices... and so the idea was that they did not want a big brother to be involved in how they conduct their business, thus has shaped our independent spirit as a nation.

For example, in states that have very strict gun laws, they tend to have a militarized police force, more laws, more regulations to accommodate. As they are more reliant on the state for those needs, their encroachment and footprint into daily life is much more palpable, their taxes are much higher, and their rights are fewer. And that tends to extend beyond security... it tends to lead to govt dominating other facets of life as well. (edit)

But many people here feel we should only be accountable for ourselves. We don't need a govt or other people to come in and tell us how to conduct our business. That's the concept of protecting the "good guys"... that just because there are a few bad guys, doesn't mean we want our rights to be removed. We can and should self-manage, as we had since founding and it's shaped our culture to be stronger as a result. So certain segments of govt growing too large or interfering in our lives is highly controversial as it contradicts basically the foundation of our traditions. Yes, there's a rise in certain crime as a result of this higher responsibility on the public, as we see more gun crime to some degree, more poverty due to being responsible for our own choices, etc... but there is no systemic failure if there is no overarching system in place there to help "manage" everything ... that's why these ideals are so contentious and controversial throughout public discourse... it's just people have forgotten why we have the rights we do or aren't being taught the significance of certain history (yay ****ty education) beyond "guns go bang" "so what if I don't like guns that go bang?", etc

Our constitution was never meant for this pseudo-socialist, 200 page bills, huge govt mess. That's why our system is so broken and people are so frustrated. It's also why some people are hanging onto the 2A and will never allow it to be repealed. There are a lot of us who maybe own one home defense weapon and are strongly pro-2A... just because we love our country how it was, we don't want this abomination it's become...

Thank you for the background, very interesting.
My original post was really rhetorical. I would not expect guns to be banned in America. Guns are ingrained in American culture and psyche.
I didn't know though that philosophical justification for A2 went beyond shooting natives and feeding yourself. Interesting.
As you say, in practice it hasn't worked too well. The government has slowly crept into people's lives anyway. So maybe it is time to rethink the issue?
Also, as I see it, police in US is not used much less as a result of self-defence capabilities of citizens than it is the case in Europe where citizens are unarmed.
I get the lofty ideals, but does it really work in practice?
I get that Americans are big on individualism, but surely, for a social species like us, a healthy mix of individualism and collectivism is the best solution?
Sure, too much collectivism gives you communism, but American model of individualism seems like a step too far in the other direction.

[The Slim Reaper]

Are you a libertarian Maru?

[The Slim Reaper]

Thank you for the background, very interesting.
My original post was really rhetorical. I would not expect guns to be banned in America. Guns are ingrained in American culture and psyche.
I didn't know though that philosophical justification for A2 went beyond shooting natives and feeding yourself. Interesting.
As you say, in practice it hasn't worked too well. The government has slowly crept into people's lives anyway. So maybe it is time to rethink the issue?
Also, as I see it, police in US is not used much less as a result of self-defence capabilities of citizens than it is the case in Europe where citizens are unarmed.
I get the lofty ideals, but does it really work in practice?
I get that Americans are big on individualism, but surely, for a social species like us, a healthy mix of individualism and collectivism is the best solution?
Sure, too much collectivism gives you communism, but American model of individualism seems like a step too far in the other direction.

I wouldn't advise you take that at face value.

[Maru]

Thank you for the background, very interesting.
My original post was really rhetorical. I would not expect guns to be banned in America. Guns are ingrained in American culture and psyche.
I didn't know though that philosophical justification for A2 went beyond shooting natives and feeding yourself. Interesting.
As you say, in practice it hasn't worked too well. The government has slowly crept into people's lives anyway. So maybe it is time to rethink the issue?
Also, as I see it, police in US is not used much less as a result of self-defence capabilities of citizens than it is the case in Europe where citizens are unarmed.
I get the lofty ideals, but does it really work in practice?
I get that Americans are big on individualism, but surely, for a social species like us, a healthy mix of individualism and collectivism is the best solution?
Sure, too much collectivism gives you communism, but American model of individualism seems like a step too far in the other direction.

I think I would hit the post data character max in the forum database if I were to answer all those questions in a single post. Or maybe just the soft limit. :laugh:

Indeed, it's a complex issue, and there is already encroachment. And some is desirable. However, for the most part, that's on a state-by-state basis. That's why Republicans have such a hard on for "let states decide their own laws" rather than allow for expansion of federal regulations, etc...

There's not many as federal (national) laws that govern our behavior actually as some would think. I would say the biggest encroachment is our social programs, but I think most people are OK with some degree of socialism (like disability, temporary welfare). Some states have more socialism than others, and that's fine. It's when we start getting into bigger policy discussions of how we regulate things up to the federal level... Democrats would tend to lean towards enlarging the overall state as an answer to solve problems. Republicans, the opposite, they try to keep it local. Texas is probably a good model for the "ideal" form of governing, because our economy is for the most part self-sustaining and so that model would be more feasible. While our property and sales tax is kind higher, our cost of living is not and we don't have an income tax. We also have a healthy amount of import/export... we are one of the few states that could probably secede and be fine... as long as we take care of our own problems, like flooding, wildfires, etc. Our economy did OK despite the recession. (and yes oil is part of that, but we tend to be big in energy in general)

I don't mind if we have some federal laws as an "interface" (i.e. require states to write some penal code). For example, we have severe and separate punishments for people who are caught drunk driving. (big no no here). There is no CAP laws (Child Access Prevention) federally so it would require states have a law on the books and not all do... and it may be because some states have so small of a population, the laws are possibly more localized (by town)... however, it's not like if a child harms themselves with a gun, there isn't a charge. (Negligent Homocide) But I would not be surprised if some homeowners think that wrongly keeping an arm that even has a remote possibility of falling into a child's hands is legal, and I think that there should be explicit legislature, or at least guidance to create these statutes... and to some degree, it is technically legal, until the child accidentally gets a hold of it and hurts themselves anyway... which seems to add to the issue of morons hiding guns in places where kids have access to. (I'd lose my sh*t if my husband did that or I saw a friend had a gun laying around in their home)

I am also a huge proponent for red flag laws and hope something like this eventually makes it's way to legislature...

Trump Weighs ‘Red Flag’ Orders to Take Guns Away Quickly
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-24/white-house-said-to-consider-protection-orders-to-curb-shootings

[Tozzie]

Its a horrible idea. Teachers go into teaching to educate young people, not to possibly have to shoot someone dead, teachers aren't the military. They need to stop selling automatic rifles/guns. Trump is an absolute arsehole saying that. Beggars belief

[Maru]

Are you a libertarian Maru?

I wouldn't advise you take that at face value.

:suspect: I'll pass. Thanks.

[bots]

I think the teachers should all have to wear cowboy hats too and then they can have fastest draw contests to liven things up during quiet periods