We are in the black. Is this a good thing or a bad thing?

[DemolitionRed]

George Osborne announced 5 days ago that we are in the black and the current government is now in budget surplus.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/03/01/back-black-uk-current-budget-surplus-imf-says-osborne-right/

Was all this suffering worth it? Was it something that had to be done? and will we now be better off as we move towards Brexit?

[bots]

It's great news. Money can now start to be used improving services etc rather than making interest payments.

[Alf]

All what suffering? Having to have a McDonalds only once a week instad of the usual five times?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Good news that we have steadied the ship and the IMF agree. Now we will have a quiet undramatic budget and steam ahead with Brexit.

[smudgie]

Hopefully now we are in the black there won’t be any need for more cuts.
The interest that was being paid on the day to day spending should be put to good use as well,

[Kazanne]

All what suffering? Having to have a McDonalds only once a week instad of the usual five times?

Spot on Alf, we only suffer if we expect want more than we need.

[Northern Monkey]

Terrible news!

F’king sick of these Tories :facepalm:

[smudgie]

Terrible news!

F’king sick of these Tories :facepalm:

Awful isn’t it.:joker:

[Jamie89]

I mean I don't really understand how it all works but I don't see how it could be a bad thing? Wouldn't that make being in the red a good thing? Or if they're both bad things then what's the point in anything :oh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Terrible news!

F’king sick of these Tories :facepalm:

:joker:

[bots]

I mean I don't really understand how it all works but I don't see how it could be a bad thing? Wouldn't that make being in the red a good thing? Or if they're both bad things then what's the point in anything :oh:

being in the red means you are spending other peoples money rather than your own, which i guess is a good thing, but only if you don't need to pay it back :laugh:

[DemolitionRed]

I mean I don't really understand how it all works but I don't see how it could be a bad thing? Wouldn't that make being in the red a good thing? Or if they're both bad things then what's the point in anything :oh:

A lot of people don't understand Jamie. Its obviously a good thing for home economics but government debt and balancing the books is hugely different to the way households survive.

When we have a deficit we can allow higher government spending because there's more money in circulation. The only way the government can run a surplus is by taking money from the public purse. It needs to tax the people more than it spends on the people. The problem with that is, there has to be a continuous filter of money coming from the private sector to keep the government afloat. The government has to rely on the private sectors willingness to keep borrowing but when borrowing reaches a stage where the debt can no longer be serviced, they go into liquidation (something we are seeing at the moment) and when they go into liquidation we then reach a point of stagnation and with stagnation comes economic crisis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A02ajx4Qz28

Time to remind ourselves of Bill Clintons celebrated 4 years of being in surplus before everything came to a grinding halt.

[DemolitionRed]

We have been running deficits since 1694!

[Toy Soldier]

Well a lot of people seem to be taking it as meaning there is no longer debt :umm2:... We are still in huge debt and still making huge interest payments. You could also make a strong argument that we are not in a "real" budget surplus until we are in the black and still properly funding councils and public services which we are currently not. I mean... Getting into the black is in theory never a difficult thing to do? You just cut outgoings. The government could have been in the black instantly 10 years ago, simply by cutting every penny of health spending. Yes, people would have been dying in the streets, but we would have been "in the black"...

So I guess it just depends how far you're willing to go on a sliding scale? I personally would much prefer that a budget surplus be achieved by increasing productivity, or at least increasing efficiency, rather than simply cutting what we already have.

[Kizzy]

Debt is doubled isn't it? What this effectively means is the govt are hoarding money, not paying anything whilst imposing austerity measures and wage caps on public services, which if we are in the black they have no reason or justification for...

Why do they want this money is it a war chest? further bungs to 'helpful' parties?
I too would like to know why anyone sees this as a positive, 'there is no magic money tree' may said... well where is this money from then and what is it for?

[Crimson Dynamo]

"Research published by the International Monetary Fund said Britain set an example for other countries to follow in slashing the deficit by cutting public spending, rather than raising taxes."

:clap1:

[Mystic Mock]

All what suffering? Having to have a McDonalds only once a week instad of the usual five times?

Not every family can afford a McDonalds nowadays in this country as the working class are getting poorer.

[Kizzy]

But the IMF warns that upbeat assessments of the global economy “ignore debt levels that remain close to historic highs and the inevitable end of the cyclical upswing”.

“Servicing debt will become a major burden,” it warns.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not every family can afford a McDonalds nowadays in this country as the working class are getting poorer.

that is patently not true

[kirklancaster]

I mean I don't really understand how it all works but I don't see how it could be a bad thing? Wouldn't that make being in the red a good thing? Or if they're both bad things then what's the point in anything :oh:

:joker: You make it all so simple to understand Jamie.

[Toy Soldier]

that is patently not true

Well no it's not but really what I find more concerning is that it's becoming difficult to make a half decent meal for a family from scratch for much less than a McDonalds :shrug:. Obviously it's better to do so because McDonalds has the nutritional content of hamster bedding... but still.

[Livia]

Whether it's a good thing or not depends entirely on your political leaning.

[Crimson Dynamo]

in terms of politics it will harden the general public's opinion that the Conservatives are much better with money than labour

[Kizzy]

Do economists get taught that macroeconomics is 99% political?

[Livia]

in terms of politics it will harden the general public's opinion that the Conservatives are much better with money than labour

That's the way the circle goes, isn't it. Labour spends, the Tories get in a nd have to make cuts to get the economy back on track, Labour gets back in, spend all the money, and so it continues...

[Kizzy]

in terms of politics it will harden the general public's opinion that the Conservatives are much better with money than labour

Good at keeping it... Not so good at funding the country.



* waits for the inevitable comment in relation to the world wide recession

[Kizzy]

:joker: You make it all so simple to understand Jamie.

Good to see you back now hopefully the accusations that I ran you off the forum will stop.

[Marsh.]

All what suffering? Having to have a McDonalds only once a week instad of the usual five times?

Spot on Alf, we only suffer if we expect want more than we need.

Or what about my brother having his disability cut. Not having the equipment he desperately needs to lead a good quality of life.

Silly him. All want, want, want. :rolleyes:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Or what about my brother having his disability cut. Not having the equipment he desperately needs to lead a good quality of life.

Silly him. All want, want, want. :rolleyes:

We all want a good quality of life

[Marsh.]

We all want a good quality of life

Well, you can go to the toilet unaided, walk where you need to go, feed and clothe yourself so I'd say you've got it good going.

Not everyone is as fortunate.

Again, we're talking about basic needs, not Maccies for tea.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, you can go to the toilet unaided, walk where you need to go, feed and clothe yourself so I'd say you've got it good going.

Not everyone is as fortunate.

Again, we're talking about basic needs, not Maccies for tea.

There are myriad reasons why benefits are cut and raised depending on personal circumstance.

[Marsh.]

There are myriad reasons why benefits are cut and raised depending on personal circumstance.

Yes, and helpless children left without the treatment and help they need to do even the most basic things in life is obviously a priority when it comes to slashing budgets. I'm not talking about personal benefit cuts, I'm talking about the services themselves designed to help, whose hands are tied because they can't afford to actually do what they're there to do.

They could kind of do without snide people who aren't affected making ill-informed comments about "We expect more than we need".

[Kizzy]

Well, you can go to the toilet unaided, walk where you need to go, feed and clothe yourself so I'd say you've got it good going.

Not everyone is as fortunate.

Again, we're talking about basic needs, not Maccies for tea.

Sorry to hear about your brother Marsh, I hope he has appealed any decision made many PIP rejections are overturned on appeal.

The feeling shown is one that I have picked up on for a bit and tried to ignore, that the onus is moving away from seeing anyone incapable of self supporting instead of being aided is effectively cast off, as well as there being a generalised impression that they are a drain on resources.

We see this the most in attitudes towards the homeless, there is however a public backlash beginning which is wonderful to see and restores my faith in people in this country.

We are a nation of animal lovers and when you see people being treated worse than dogs at the insistence of the local, regional or national authority then rightly there will be resistance.

[Twosugars]

not to mention mental health services, situation there is beyond bad

[Marsh.]

Sorry to hear about your brother Marsh, I hope he has appealed any decision made many PIP rejections are overturned on appeal.

The feeling shown is one that I have picked up on for a bit and tried to ignore, that the onus is moving away from seeing anyone incapable of self supporting instead of being aided is effectively cast off, as well as there being a generalised impression that they are a drain on resources.

We see this the most in attitudes towards the homeless, there is however a public backlash beginning which is wonderful to see and restores my faith in people in this country.

We are a nation of animal lovers and when you see people being treated worse than dogs at the insistence of the local, regional or national authority then rightly there will be resistance.

Thank you.
Oh, he has appeals coming out of his ears. We had to save, and some generous people even set up some fund raising initiatives to get him a motorised wheelchair and finally some semblance of independence.

The animal thing is a funny one, because there's always outrage when animal abuse is in the news but there's always some victimisation when it comes to people.

Sad, but makes my blood boil when I see people who are fortunate enough to find themselves unaffected in any huge way make glib remarks about McDonald's or some other bullsh*t as though anyone struggling is only struggling because they're not doing enough themselves. Or rather, not doing as much as they do.

[kirklancaster]

Good to see you back now hopefully the accusations that I ran you off the forum will stop.

You did not run me anywhere, but thank you for the welcome back.

[Toy Soldier]

Some of their criteria is ridiculous... my daughter's was cut almost in half because they said there was "no proof" that she required care through the night as well as during the day (she can be awake for 4 - 6 hours through the night several times a week). We asked what would constitute proof, and they said a letter from her paediatrician and a sleep specialist... so, we went to her paediatrician and told her exactly what we had already told them, got a sleep specialist nurse and told her the same (note: neither of them assessed her at night, they just believed us when we described it) and then THEY each wrote letters, saying exactly what we had already told DLA people... and that then apparently counts as proof. :think: it's just bizarre.

[Kizzy]

Thank you.
Oh, he has appeals coming out of his ears. We had to save, and some generous people even set up some fund raising initiatives to get him a motorised wheelchair and finally some semblance of independence.

The animal thing is a funny one, because there's always outrage when animal abuse is in the news but there's always some victimisation when it comes to people.

Sad, but makes my blood boil when I see people who are fortunate enough to find themselves unaffected in any huge way make glib remarks about McDonald's or some other bullsh*t as though anyone struggling is only struggling because they're not doing enough themselves. Or rather, not doing as much as they do.

Oh that's great, it really needs more people to speak out that all this austerity is not working insofar as it is putting so much pressure on families and communities to bear the weight of supporting those in need...Economists just don't see that all they see is numbers, meanwhile some are really struggling, some are dying and some are just shrugging their shoulders :/

There is a steep rise of 'I'm alright jacks' and it'd really distasteful, it's not 'British' we are always being sold this image of 'Britishness' and 'patriotism' this ideology that allows treatment like this could not be further in my mind to what being 'British stands for.

I hope that public feeling shifts soon, I have a feeling it will the public conscience has been pricked and more and more waking from their apathy towards those in need in society.

[Marsh.]

Some of their criteria is ridiculous... my daughter's was cut almost in half because they said there was "no proof" that she required care through the night as well as during the day (she can be awake for 4 - 6 hours through the night several times a week). We asked what would constitute proof, and they said a letter from her paediatrician and a sleep specialist... so, we went to her paediatrician and told her exactly what we had already told them, got a sleep specialist nurse and told her the same (note: neither of them assessed her at night, they just believed us when we described it) and then THEY each wrote letters, saying exactly what we had already told DLA people... and that then apparently counts as proof. :think: it's just bizarre.

Oh jeez, you must be knackered.

So I take it she got the DLA back?

[Marsh.]

Oh that's great, it really needs more people to speak out that all this austerity is not working insofar as it is putting so much pressure on families and communities to bear the weight of supporting those in need...Economists just don't see that all they see is numbers, meanwhile some are really struggling, some are dying and some are just shrugging their shoulders :/

There is a steep rise of 'I'm alright jacks' and it'd really distasteful, it's not 'British' we are always being sold this image of 'Britishness' and 'patriotism' this ideology that allows treatment like this could not be further in my mind to what being 'British stands for.

I hope that public feeling shifts soon, I have a feeling it will the public conscience has been pricked and more and more waking from their apathy towards those in need in society.

Yeah, a slow change but hopefully a start. Brexit fears probably started it, where everyone started to see how the actions of those at the top will trickle down into everything and everyone's lives in some way. I think I was guilty of it too, not blaming those in need I never did that, but kind of a sense of that apathy towards situations I was not familiar with or people coping with things I didn't have to contend with. Then when it hits you, it's like a tonne of bricks and you see it everywhere all the time.

[Toy Soldier]

Oh jeez, you must be knackered.

So I take it she got the DLA back?

Definitely knackered, about 5 hours sleep is standard :joker:. PLUS I always plan to have a nap in the day when I'm off and they're at school, but then I end up arguing the toss on here instead :think:.

DLA is still under review :notimpressed:. The process takes forever.

[Kizzy]

You did not run me anywhere, but thank you for the welcome back.

Definitely knackered, about 5 hours sleep is standard :joker:. PLUS I always plan to have a nap in the day when I'm off and they're at school, but then I end up arguing the toss on here instead :think:.

DLA is still under review :notimpressed:. The process takes forever.

I really hope it gets sorted quickly for you TS.
That's the thing austerity to me it lazy economics as it's all about clawing back the most amount of money in the shortest time....But how viable is that?

The debt has doubled, people are under increasing pressure, wages have stagnated, productivity affected due to overwork and/or stress, MOUNTAINS of personal debt,unemployment,homelessness,stress on councils, prisons, stress on public services, surge in specific crimes ( theft, burglary), welfare restrictions/reductions

This is all going to implode it is not sustainable, where is the long term plan for recovery?

Brexit?..... :/

[jet]

The debt has doubled, people are under increasing pressure, wages have stagnated, productivity affected due to overwork and/or stress, MOUNTAINS of personal debt,unemployment,homelessness,stress on councils, prisons, stress on public services, surge in specific crimes ( theft, burglary), welfare restrictions/reduction.

Brexit?..... :/

Jeez Kizzy, you're such a ray of sunshine. :hee:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Oh that's great, it really needs more people to speak out that all this austerity is not working insofar as it is putting so much pressure on families and communities to bear the weight of supporting those in need...Economists just don't see that all they see is numbers, meanwhile some are really struggling, some are dying and some are just shrugging their shoulders :/

There is a steep rise of 'I'm alright jacks' and it'd really distasteful, it's not 'British' we are always being sold this image of 'Britishness' and 'patriotism' this ideology that allows treatment like this could not be further in my mind to what being 'British stands for.

I hope that public feeling shifts soon, I have a feeling it will the public conscience has been pricked and more and more waking from their apathy towards those in need in society.

It has worked - he did what he said he would and the tactics worked, you may not like it but it worked

[DemolitionRed]

Do economists get taught that macroeconomics is 99% political?

Chris Giles, economics editor of FT clearly doesn't understand macroeconomics.

[Kizzy]

Jeez Kizzy, you're such a ray of sunshine. :hee:

I'm a realist.

[DemolitionRed]

It has worked - he did what he said he would and the tactics worked, you may not like it but it worked

But for who? don't kid yourself it was for us and that its somehow going to help out the future of Britain. Austerity was always a class wars... destroy and divide.

And what has worked? will the government suddenly start funding the very things they've spent the last eight years destroying? Honestly though, how do you think a budget surplus is going to help our economy?

[Kizzy]

It has worked - he did what he said he would and the tactics worked, you may not like it but it worked

Is this the state of the country when it's worked?... feck me what would it look like if we'd failed!?
It's already a Dickensian malady complete with ghoul mogg Moriarty!!

[Crimson Dynamo]

But for who? don't kid yourself it was for us and that its somehow going to help out the future of Britain. Austerity was always a class wars... destroy and divide.

And what has worked? will the government suddenly start funding the very things they've spent the last eight years destroying? Honestly though, how do you think a budget surplus is going to help our economy?

"Austerity was always a class wars... destroy and divide. "

no, it really wasn't

[Kizzy]

"Austerity was always a class wars... destroy and divide. "

no, it really wasn't

Well the country is more divided than ever, is that a happy accident then?

Like DR said what is the surplus for?...

[Beso]

The tories must be applauded for filling up that empty envelope that labour kindly left them....well done tories.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The Chancellor will have lots to batter the labour front benches with. Should be a good budget for the Tories

[Withano]

Imagine they could have charged a little bit more tax for the higher earners, and they thought 'nah, there a load of disabled kids, and mentally ill patients who are being well greedy'

I mean, to answer the question in a word.. yes.. but its just a bit ****ed how we got there.

[Maru]

You can always tell a good politician by their reaction to having a surplus ... "OH! We have more money now, so we can go spend it on XYZ things!..."...

[Marsh.]

Imagine they could have charged a little bit more tax for the higher earners, and they thought 'nah, there a load of disabled kids, and mentally ill patients who are being well greedy'

I mean, to answer the question in a word.. yes.. but its just a bit ****ed how we got there.

Spot on.

[DemolitionRed]

Jeez Kizzy, you're such a ray of sunshine. :hee:

How about you. How have you faired through these bleak times?

Its not just the lazy bums who won't get off their arse to do a days work and its not just the strapped for cash benefit claimants who can still afford a Big Mac, though the government and the Daily Mail would like you to think that.

We do have statistics that tell us millions of already impoverished people have struggled more than ever and hundreds of thousands of children now live in the poverty bracket. The cost of living has gone up, salaries haven't. Many of those living on the poverty line are full time workers trying to survive on a minimum wage.

But its not just the blue collar workers or those who can't find a job that pays a living wage; I know a lot of private sector workers who lost their contracts and have had to re-aply for positions they once believed were safe (before they were privatized). Those people who have mortgages, small children and the usual every day expenses are often working on temporary or zero hour contracts. More and more people have to borrow or cash in their pensions early, just so they can pay their rent or mortgage.

This has been one huge money grab and its been at the expense of millions and if you can't see that because you've done alright, then all I can say is, look beyond your own front door.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The good news just keeps on coming...

UK manufacturers on course to outpace GDP growth, survey finds

Britain’s manufacturers are set to outpace the rest of the economy this year with help from booming global demand for exports, according to a survey showing British firms started the year on a strong note.

According to the manufacturers’ organisation EEF and the accountancy firm BDO, factory output is on course to increase by 2% this year – beating the 1.5% GDP growth forecast for the wider economy.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/05/eef-survey-uk-manufacturers-outpace-gdp-growth-booming-demand-british-exports

[DemolitionRed]

The tories must be applauded for filling up that empty envelope that labour kindly left them....well done tories.

We had a world crash for fs. It wasn't just the UK!

[Crimson Dynamo]

It makes a change to see a good news thread about the government in SD for a change. Very positive like the economy seems to be

:clap1:

[Beso]

We had a world crash for fs. It wasn't just the UK!

Oh....well.
Thats even more remarkable...i must double my applause.

[jet]

How about you. How have you faired through these bleak times?

This has been one huge money grab and its been at the expense of millions and if you can't see that because you've done alright, then all I can say is, look beyond your own front door.

A lighthearted remark about Kizzy's eternal gloominess inspired that rant? Wind your neck in. :laugh:

[Kazanne]

George Osborne announced 5 days ago that we are in the black and the current government is now in budget surplus.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2018/03/01/back-black-uk-current-budget-surplus-imf-says-osborne-right/

Was all this suffering worth it? Was it something that had to be done? and will we now be better off as we move towards Brexit?

Oh Labour wont like that :hehe: get them in quick we need to be in the red !!!!

[kirklancaster]

Oh Labour wont like that :hehe: get them in quick we need to be in the red !!!!

:joker:

[DemolitionRed]

Well, well, well, what a surprise. One of the hard right leading figures has just driven his coach and horses through the austerity myth! http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/03/05/the-twin-deficits/ I have not been worried about the state deficit for sometime, ever since Mr Brown found out that the UK state can literally print money to pay its bills. Mr Osborne, originally a critic of this in opposition, then discovered its charms in office as well. It turned out to have no adverse consequences on shop price inflation, though of course it caused massive price inflation in government bonds, because it was accompanied by severe pressure against bank lending to the private sector to avoid an inflationary blow off. I always adjust the outstanding debt by the £435 bn the state has bought up, as this is in no sense a debt we owe. So our government borrowing level (excluding future state pensions which some here worry about and which have always been pay as you go out of taxation) is modest by world standards at around 65% of GDP, and at current interest rates is affordable.

Most of the state debt we owe to each other anyway. The government owes it to taxpayers who own the debt in their pension funds and insurance policies. The state can always raise enough money to pay the donestic bills backed by the huge powers to tax, and as we have just seen when credit expansion and inflation are low it can also use liquidity created by the monetary authorities.
The deficit I worry about much more is our external deficit. That is the one where we have to buy foreign currencies to pay for it. It is the reason why we keep selling some of our best property and business assets to foreigners, and why we have to borrow abroad. Running at around 5% of GDP it is high by world standards, and means we gradually get into more debt or sell more assets to keep up with it. When you owe money to foreigners they may not accept money created to pay them off but will need real assets.

[Kizzy]

Quantitative easing... yep easy to get back in the black when you print your own money :/

[Beso]

Quantitative easing... yep easy to get back in the black when you print your own money :/

Luckily for us the tories were compitent enough to find the plug socket that labour couldnt find for 8 years.

[Kizzy]

The good news just keeps on coming...

UK manufacturers on course to outpace GDP growth, survey finds

Britain’s manufacturers are set to outpace the rest of the economy this year with help from booming global demand for exports, according to a survey showing British firms started the year on a strong note.

According to the manufacturers’ organisation EEF and the accountancy firm BDO, factory output is on course to increase by 2% this year – beating the 1.5% GDP growth forecast for the wider economy.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/mar/05/eef-survey-uk-manufacturers-outpace-gdp-growth-booming-demand-british-exports

Where are you seeing the good news here... there is none :/

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/feb/22/markets-hit-by-interest-rate-hike-fears-uk-gdp-growth-report-business-live?page=with:block-5a8e8e23e4b0bcd7f42a6758#block-5a8e8e23e4b0bcd7f42a6758


Congratulations, everyone! We did it! The deficit has been eliminated! George Osborne, the architect of austerity, emerged from one of his non-jobs as the editor of the London Evening Standard to tell us all it was a “remarkable national effort” on Twitter, as if he’d ever broken a sweat over it. David Cameron, who will go down as arguably the worst prime minister in history thanks to the gigantic power move of doing a Brexit and running away, simply added: “It was the right thing to do” – safe in the knowledge that he was now out of the line of fire from tough questions.

That will all be cold comfort to the thousands of homeless people struggling to cope with sub-zero temperatures, or those having to choose between keeping the heating on, or risk going into rent arrears and losing their home entirely; to public sector workers in the NHS or local government, trying to keep the wheels from falling off as they deliver vital services in the face of budget cuts; and to disabled and unemployed people, bearing the brunt of the government’s spending cuts and facing harassment from the authorities.

Forget all that. We’ve eliminated the deficit, and all we had to do was attack the poor and vulnerable with a relentless fury, create a new generation of young people for whom the concept of pensions or even steady wages is a fantasy, and undermine public services to such a grotesque extent that it will take years to rebuild what we’ve lost. Hooray!

It’s worth pointing out, not that this hasn’t been said before, that the rationale for this strategy was always a confection of fear-mongering and economic illiteracy that misrepresented the causes of the 2008 crash as being something to do with “Labour overspending” rather than a global banking crisis. This was an ideologically driven attack on the concept of redistribution through public spending. The upper-class bumblers in charge latched on to any excuse, no matter how quickly it was debunked, to pursue their project of returning the country to the Victorian slum state of their romantic imaginations, where finally, at long last, poor but cheerful urchins would give them the respect they deserved for being born wealthy.



https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/05/eliminate-deficit-economic-hope-george-osborne-austerity-poverty

[jaxie]

Great news, can't say I noticed multitudes of suffering, certainly no more than there always is. Kudos to the government for managing it, if true.

Broccoli and Cauliflower TS, couple of chicken breasts, bit of garlic, stir fry. Super cheap, super healthy!

[jaxie]

:joker:

Welcome back! :wavey:

[jaxie]

Oh Labour wont like that :hehe: get them in quick we need to be in the red !!!!

Spend it like Jezza? It sounds like a movie to me!

[Kizzy]

Great news, can't say I noticed multitudes of suffering,certainly no more than there always is. Kudos to the government for managing it, if true.

Broccoli and Cauliflower TS, couple of chicken breasts, bit of garlic, stir fry. Super cheap, super healthy!

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[jaxie]

Good to see you back now hopefully the accusations that I ran you off the forum will stop.

Does anyone think you are that influential? :shrug:

[Marsh.]

Great news, can't say I noticed multitudes of suffering, certainly no more than there always is. Kudos to the government for managing it, if true.

OF COURSE!

If you didn't notice it, it didn't exist. All is right with the world.

[jaxie]

OF COURSE!

If you didn't notice it, it didn't exist. All is right with the world.

Are under the illusion there is never hardship, suffering or homelessness under any other party in government?

[kirklancaster]

Does anyone think you are that influential? :shrug:

Oh YES - Kizzy herself. :laugh:

[Ammi]

..I don’t profess to understand country black or red bank balances, it’s not my thing at all..but it would feel logical though that a black bank balance could or would be a good thing if the surplus was spent where needed most...if it had a purpose...with this government though, so much money seems to be ‘thrown’ at things like new systems and procedures etc and changing courses...things that just don’t seem to be priority and can often be a money waste because they haven’t been tweaked enough to work effectively...so they can be quite badly thought out or seemingly no thought at all...and nothing or very little throwing in those places in desperate need to be addressed...so a black balance would be a good thing..?..if used correctly and where needed to try to prevent less vulnerable in our world..?...perhaps, because I have very little knowledge of country finance stuff...

[bots]

the most important thing is not if it's black or red but if its being used efficiently and effectively. We can all argue the toss about effective use of money, but that's what elected government is for.

[Toy Soldier]

...so they can be quite badly thought out or seemingly no thought at all...and nothing or very little throwing in those places in desperate need to be addressed...so a black balance would be a good thing..?..if used correctly and where needed to try to prevent less vulnerable in our world..?

Well this is the point, isn't it... The national debt or lack of it, being in the black / red etc. means very little to any of us or any other average citizen... The only important factor is how the resources we have are actually being used. So even those who are celebrating being out of the red surely have to see... It is completely and utterly meaningless, if the government don't then start to use that money efficiently to improve our towns, our services, and the day to day lives of normal people. Does it really benefit anyone to say "Oh hooray the government has a positive cash flow now!" if nothing is being spent on improvements or at least on stopping further decay. Towns are literally crumbling across the country... Pretty much everywhere outside of London and affluent SoE areas... It's an embarrassment. Roads and public services are a disgrace. The health service is struggling. The disabled and vulnerable (whether people "see it" or not; I envy those who are in a position not to) have been hammered.

So yes it's great if it truly is an indication that things are on the up... But only if that momentum is used to make actual, meaningful changes and improvements? Otherwise I don't really know why anyone is keen to crow about these achievements.

[Ammi]

Well this is the point, isn't it... The national debt or lack of it, being in the black / red etc. means very little to any of us or any other average citizen... The only important factor is how the resources we have are actually being used. So even those who are celebrating being out of the red surely have to see... It is completely and utterly meaningless, if the government don't then start to use that money efficiently to improve our towns, our services, and the day to day lives of normal people. Does it really benefit anyone to say "Oh hooray the government has a positive cash flow now!" if nothing is being spent on improvements or at least on stopping further decay. Towns are literally crumbling across the country... Pretty much everywhere outside of London and affluent SoE areas... It's an embarrassment. Roads and public services are a disgrace. The health service is struggling. The disabled and vulnerable (whether people "see it" or not; I envy those who are in a position not to) have been hammered.

So yes it's great if it truly is an indication that things are on the up... But only if that momentum is used to make actual, meaningful changes and improvements? Otherwise I don't really know why anyone is keen to crow about these achievements.

..it’s the ‘wasted’ spending really, TS...the ‘pointless’ spending that won’t see improvement for anyone...just one little example of something a friend said to me only last week...with the weather conditions of winter..road markings were being addressed on done on some country roads he was travelling on..but no huge pot holes had been filled, so basically just marking around them, type thing...so crazy..:laugh:...the NHS yeah..but for me personally recently it hasn’t felt ‘lacking’ at all..I have nothing but huge praise for what we have in this day...but I also know I’m fortunate and blessed in my own experiences as well..it’s not so for everyone, sadly...one over the last few years when I was working more in schools...was ‘Prevent’...a huge government focus and expenditure...so did it ‘prevent’, has it prevented...was it justified and was it needed in justification etc..?....hmmm, no real signs that it was tbh...so ‘wasted money’...rather than have been focused expenditure on ‘actuals’, rather than ‘possibles’...?...a black bank balance still can’t afford to ‘waste’, waste is never really affordable...for the majority, regardless of politics or lifestyle...

[Crimson Dynamo]

Good to get a reminder of why I seldom come here anymore! There's no debate to be had on this forum. Just a load of kindergarden rivalry and bullsiht.

aha

so the thread is not going the way you planned and you resort to insulting forum members (which is against the forum rules)

last time it was the mods and admin's fault now its forum members..

:facepalm:

[Toy Soldier]

aha

so the thread is not going the way you planned and you resort to insulting forum members (which is against the forum rules)

last time it was the mods and admin's fault now its forum members..

:facepalm:

To be fair LT, if you're trying to say that this forum ISN'T full of childish squabbles and buhlshett then you are a LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE. Ur mom gay!

[Crimson Dynamo]

To be fair LT, if you're trying to say that this forum ISN'T full of childish squabbles and buhlshett then you are a LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE. Ur mom gay!

Its no different than QT or the House of Commons in that respect

slagging it off constantly but still using it is rather odd as I am sure you will agree

[Toy Soldier]

Its no different than QT or the House of Commons in that respect

slagging it off constantly but still using it is rather odd as I am sure you will agree

It's a dumpster fire, but god damn it it's my our dumpster fire :fist:

[Mystic Mock]

that is patently not true

It is true.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/inequality-class-britain-property-ownership-workers-income-poorer-2017-2

[Crimson Dynamo]

It is true.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/inequality-class-britain-property-ownership-workers-income-poorer-2017-2

that is not evidence to back up your specific claim i am afraid

[Mystic Mock]

It has worked - he did what he said he would and the tactics worked, you may not like it but it worked

It's not worked if people can't live out their lives.:laugh:

[Mystic Mock]

Are under the illusion there is never hardship, suffering or homelessness under any other party in government?

Nobody has said that, it's the fact that it's increasing dramatically without no let up under the Tories which has been the issue over these 8 or so years that they've been in charge for.

[Mystic Mock]

that is not evidence to back up your specific claim i am afraid

So people earning less money than they did 12 years ago is not a sign of how the poorest of society is living nowadays to you? I've seen alot of homeless people on the streets lately and I bet I'm not the only one on here that's seen them either, unless you are fortunate to live in a rich area.

But yeah homeless are not exactly gonna waste money on McDonald's are they as they couldn't afford to be so relaxed.

[DemolitionRed]

aha

so the thread is not going the way you planned and you resort to insulting forum members (which is against the forum rules)

last time it was the mods and admin's fault now its forum members..

:facepalm:

Its ridiculous that some people can't start what should be a decent debate on here without the constant refusal to take part in that debate other than to troll it.

You for example, who clearly have a lack of understanding around fiscal policy but still feels a need to join in and make glib insidious remarks in an attempt to derail others, makes a healthy and energetic discussion impossible. It wouldn't be tolerated in real life but for some reason its tolerated on here.

The dislike of others on here is probably more intense than anything I've ever come across online and there's rules in place to ensure people put up or shut up. Its like walking through treacle.

[Livia]

Its ridiculous that some people can't start what should be a decent debate on here without the constant refusal to take part in that debate other than to troll it.

You for example, who clearly have a lack of understanding around fiscal policy but still feels a need to join in and make glib insidious remarks in an attempt to derail others, makes a healthy and energetic discussion impossible. It wouldn't be tolerated in real life but for some reason its tolerated on here.

The dislike of others on here is probably more intense than anything I've ever come across online and there's rules in place to ensure people put up or shut up. Its like walking through treacle.

Every single word you've written applies to you yourself, DR, can't you see that? It mystifies me why you come here when you have so many other forums you're always banging on about, with much more intelligent people, apparently. There are plenty of big fish in this little pond already.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its ridiculous that some people can't start what should be a decent debate on here without the constant refusal to take part in that debate other than to troll it.

You for example, who clearly have a lack of understanding around fiscal policy but still feels a need to join in and make glib insidious remarks in an attempt to derail others, makes a healthy and energetic discussion impossible. It wouldn't be tolerated in real life but for some reason its tolerated on here.

The dislike of others on here is probably more intense than anything I've ever come across online and there's rules in place to ensure people put up or shut up. Its like walking through treacle.

Lets face facts you only made this thread to "dazzle us" with your knowledge but the thread actually ended up as a fan thread for how well the Government has actually done and you are a bit butt-hurt about it

lets not dress this up as anything else

[jaxie]

aha

so the thread is not going the way you planned and you resort to insulting forum members (which is against the forum rules)

last time it was the mods and admin's fault now its forum members..

:facepalm:

I did see them say they were going to talk to intelligent people instead. Maybe the intelligent people wouldn't play. :hehe:

[Mystic Mock]

Lets face facts you only made this thread to "dazzle us" with your knowledge but the thread actually ended up as a fan thread for how well the Government has actually done and you are a bit butt-hurt about it

lets not dress this up as anything else

It depends on if mistreating the people is considered doing a "good job."

[DemolitionRed]

Lets face facts you only made this thread to "dazzle us" with your knowledge but the thread actually ended up as a fan thread for how well the Government has actually done and you are a bit butt-hurt about it

lets not dress this up as anything else

I started this thread to discover peoples opinions and why they had those opinions. Most people have little to no interest in fiscal spending. My husbands one of them. Its nothing to be ashamed about, its tedious stuff and yet this is something so important to our future economy and even livelihoods that its worth putting out there before we all go off and blindly celebrate.

So it wasn't about dazzling anyone but about sharing some factual and well researched information that may just spark an interest. Debate has to start with a topic that could have two or more sides and varying influences and it takes persuasive reasoning and logic from all sides to thrash things out.

Taking what I said as trying to dazzle you explains why you came back with taunting and teasing comments that made little to no sense. Was I surprised?!?!

The good news is, team LT is pretty big... try not to let that go to your head :pat:

[Kizzy]

Every single word you've written applies to you yourself, DR, can't you see that? It mystifies me why you come here when you have so many other forums you're always banging on about, with much more intelligent people, apparently. There are plenty of big fish in this little pond already.

How does it, as far as I can see DR is one of the few who can quantify what she is saying and not simply state it as a fact without question.

You don't have to be a genius to do that, all you are attempting to do here is drive people with whom you don't agree away.
It is not for you to say who, how or where people post.

If you have something to counter an opinion with then lets see is occasionally but this refusal to engage opting only to scoff has worn very thin.

[Kizzy]

Oh YES - Kizzy herself. :laugh:

Well that didn't take long did it?

I didn't stand for the tag teaming and the baiting last year and I'm not about to start now.

There were accusations I had run you off the forum, but not from me.

As I said I'm glad you are back but I won't tolerate any of these mocking posts.

[Kizzy]

Lets face facts you only made this thread to "dazzle us" with your knowledge but the thread actually ended up as a fan thread for how well the Government has actually done and you are a bit butt-hurt about it

lets not dress this up as anything else

Where... Where has the government done well? :/

[bots]

I started this thread to discover peoples opinions and why they had those opinions. Most people have little to no interest in fiscal spending. My husbands one of them. Its nothing to be ashamed about, its tedious stuff and yet this is something so important to our future economy and even livelihoods that its worth putting out there before we all go off and blindly celebrate.

So it wasn't about dazzling anyone but about sharing some factual and well researched information that may just spark an interest. Debate has to start with a topic that could have two or more sides and varying influences and it takes persuasive reasoning and logic from all sides to thrash things out.

Taking what I said as trying to dazzle you explains why you came back with taunting and teasing comments that made little to no sense. Was I surprised?!?!

The good news is, team LT is pretty big... try not to let that go to your head :pat:

i was under the impression people had given their opinions. The vast majority seem to be happy that we are in the black. All we ever get is pessimism about this government. This thread was made to make what is a reasonable achievement into something that sucks once again purely because its a Tory government. It stinks

[Livia]

How does it, as far as I can see DR is one of the few who can quantify what she is saying and not simply state it as a fact without question.

You don't have to be a genius to do that, all you are attempting to do here is drive people with whom you don't agree away.
It is not for you to say who, how or where people post.

If you have something to counter an opinion with then lets see is occasionally but this refusal to engage opting only to scoff has worn very thin.

Hang on a minute... here you are ticking everyone off, but not DR? Her post was pretty rude and mocking of the forum. Again. And you have a go at everyone but her!

Your last paragraph is just stupid. I don't have to follow your rules, Kizzy. Only the forum rules.

[Twosugars]

i was under the impression people had given their opinions. The vast majority seem to be happy that we are in the black. All we ever get is pessimism about this government. This thread was made to make what is a reasonable achievement into something that sucks once again purely because its a Tory government. It stinks

Not true. It's important to point out HOW it was achieved. Otherwise it's ends justify the means.
Tories brought public services to their knees and burdened the poorest more than the richest. It would be very wrong not to recognize that.

[Twosugars]

Where... Where has the government done well? :/

..... Brexit negotiations?



nah, sorry, just kidding :laugh3:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not true. It's important to point out HOW it was achieved. Otherwise it's ends justify the means.
Tories brought public services to their knees and burdened the poorest more than the richest. It would be very wrong not to recognize that.

"Tories brought public services to their knees"


this obviously is false

[Kizzy]

Hang on a minute... here you are ticking everyone off, but not DR? Her post was pretty rude and mocking of the forum. Again. And you have a go at everyone but her!

Your last paragraph is just stupid. I don't have to follow your rules, Kizzy. Only the forum rules.

Nope, her issue was with those who mock and snipe but never have anything of substance to say.
It's one of my pet hates too so can fully understand the frustration.

[Livia]

Nope, her issue was with those who mock and snipe but never have anything of substance to say.
It's one of my pet hates too so can fully understand the frustration.

Yes, I can fully understand the frustration of someone purposefully mocking and baiting with very little to say... and then apparently not even know they're doing it!

[Kizzy]

"Tories brought public services to their knees"


this obviously is false

Why do you think this, are you ignoring the weight of evidence to the contrary?

[Twosugars]

"Tories brought public services to their knees"


this obviously is false

I'd rather go by reality and not by your interpretation of it, LT :smug:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why do you think this, are you ignoring the weight of evidence to the contrary?

its hyperbole

the type of twaddle that gets shouted through a loud hailer at rallies

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'd rather go by reality and not by your interpretation of it, LT :smug:

then provide actual and specific evidence and not "left wing rally porn"

[Kizzy]

Yes, I can fully understand the frustration of someone purposefully mocking and baiting with very little to say... and then apparently not even know they're doing it!

Is this directed at myself or DR?

Should it be myself I feel I do in the main go into chapter and verse about topics, I will research and find relevant material and then be mocked for that also.

I have yet to see any in depth analysis on any given subject in discussion from yourself as you prefer your perspective to be entirely subjective and based on your own personal circumstance or that of those in you social circle...which is all well and good except it isn't representative of the general public or based on any weighted stats is it?

[Twosugars]

then provide actual and specific evidence and not "left wing rally porn"

what, spend time proving white is white and black is black? Daily media coverage over the last years have been doing that. Not my fault if you haven't been paying attention.

[Kizzy]

its hyperbole

the type of twaddle that gets shouted through a loud hailer at rallies

That doesn't mean that it's false does it?...

[Livia]

Is this directed at myself or DR?

Should it be myself I feel I do in the main go into chapter and verse about topics, I will research and find relevant material and then be mocked for that also.

I have yet to see any in depth analysis on any given subject in discussion from yourself as you prefer your perspective to be entirely subjective and based on your own personal circumstance or that of those in you social circle...which is all well and good except it isn't representative of the general public or based on any weighted stats is it?

It was directed at both of you.

Haha... the summing up of my character by someone who has only ever seen me write on a forum. Doesn't bother me... you ought to hear what I think of you.

[Marsh.]

Are under the illusion there is never hardship, suffering or homelessness under any other party in government?
Would you like to try your hand at a post relevant to what I actually said?

You claimed there was no suffering. Or no more than usual.

Anyone with eyes and ears knows that's bull.

[Livia]

what, spend time proving white is white and black is black? Daily media coverage over the last years have been doing that. Not my fault if you haven't been paying attention.

If only everyone as a clever and caught on as you, eh? You must be a genius or something.

Or maybe people just have differing opinions.

[Crimson Dynamo]

That doesn't mean that it's false does it?...

Yes, it is designed to make people angry and excited and has little to do with fact

West Ham used to sing "hes fat, hes round, he fills up half the ground" to Gazza but it was inaccurate and had little basis in fact

[Crimson Dynamo]

what, spend time proving white is white and black is black? Daily media coverage over the last years have been doing that. Not my fault if you haven't been paying attention.

so i take it you cant actually back up your loud hailer claim?

[Twosugars]

If only everyone as a clever and caught on as you, eh? You must be a genius or something.

Or maybe people just have differing opinions.

Provide some factual basis for your opinions then.

And fgs, stop these personal attacks because it shows desperation and is a bit embarrassing to read.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Provide some factual basis for your opinions then.

And fgs, stop these personal attacks because it shows desperation and is a bit embarrassing to read.

"Provide some factual basis for your opinions then."

"Tories brought public services to their knees"



so lets see you walk the walk then?

[Kizzy]

Yes, it is designed to make people angry and excited and has little to do with fact

West Ham used to sing "hes fat, hes round, he fills up half the ground" to Gazza but it was inaccurate and had little basis in fact

Have you toyed with the idea that it makes people angry because it is fact, or taken any steps to find out whether it's fact or not?

Your comparison to political statements and football chants isn't helpful.

[Kizzy]

"Provide some factual basis for your opinions then."

"Tories brought public services to their knees"



so lets see you walk the walk then?

I would have a go at this if I didn't have to take me ma shopping.... I'll have a go later if you like :)

[Livia]

Provide some factual basis for your opinions then.

And fgs, stop these personal attacks because it shows desperation and is a bit embarrassing to read.

Where's all the facts supporting your own opinions? Or is it just me who has to provide evidence?

And again.... what did we do here before you wafted in in January to show us all where we've been going wrong? Or maybe you're not new at all, who knows...

[Marsh.]

then provide actual and specific evidence and not "left wing rally porn"
Right back at you. Provide actual and specific evidence and not baiting posts about the government doing well designed to mock people you don't like.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Right back at you. Provide actual and specific evidence and not baiting posts about the government doing well designed to mock people you don't like.

if you want to make a new thread about the Conservative governments record this term go ahead but the claim we are dealing with in this thread is that Public Services and by that statement it appears ALL are "on there knees"

perhaps you wish to try and evidence that in this thread?

[Twosugars]

"Provide some factual basis for your opinions then."

"Tories brought public services to their knees"



so lets see you walk the walk then?

LOL

OK, LT, you may have not heard but there's a funding crisis in the NHS, police numbers have been cut, police stations in London have been closed, benefits and services have been cut, local authorities have seen their governments grants cut, there's been reduction in armed services numbers and funding

google is your friend if you want to find out more

btw, how was the holiday on Mars?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I would have a go at this if I didn't have to take me ma shopping.... I'll have a go later if you like :)

Well good luck as Public Services is quite a big area and "on their knees" would suggest are broken and not working ie not providing that service - like say a bin strike?

[Marsh.]

if you want to make a new thread about the Conservative governments record this term go ahead but the claim we are dealing with in this thread is that Public Services and by that statement it appears ALL are "on there knees"

perhaps you wish to try and evidence that in this thread?
You're not dealing with any claim, all you're doing is making silly posts like "aha the government has done so well everyone. Aww everybody's agreed they've done us proud :clap1:" style baiting posts.

[Crimson Dynamo]

LOL

OK, LT, you may have not heard but there's a funding crisis in the NHS, police numbers have been cut, police stations in London have been closed, benefits and services have been cut, local authorities have seen their governments grants cut, there's been reduction in armed services numbers and funding

google is your friend if you want to find out more

btw, how was the holiday on Mars?

cutting benefits and streamlining services happens in every parliament. Im looking foir the services "on their knees"?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Courts
Electricity
Education, [e.g. state (public) schools, public universities, etc...]
Emergency services, (e.g. Fire, EMS, Law Enforcement, Search and Rescue, etc...)
Environmental protection
Health care
Military
Postal service
Public bank
Public broadcasting
Public library
Public security
Public transportation
Social services, (e.g. public housing, social welfare, food subsidies, etc...)
Telecommunications
Urban planning
Transportation infrastructure
Waste management, (e.g. wastewater, solid waste, recycling, etc...)
Water supply network

[Crimson Dynamo]

which of the above is "on its knees"?

[Twosugars]

Where's all the facts supporting your own opinions? Or is it just me who has to provide evidence?

And again.... what did we do here before you wafted in in January to show us all where we've been going wrong? Or maybe you're not new at all, who knows...

:joker::joker::joker:

the shade of it all! :laugh:

1/resenting new members
2/suggesting I'm a banned member or a multi

any more insults and innuendos? should I report you now or wait a bit longer?

[Twosugars]

which of the above is "on its knees"?

start with nhs

[Marsh.]

Well good luck as Public Services is quite a big area and "on their knees" would suggest are broken and not working ie not providing that service - like say a bin strike?
"On their knees" suggests they're still operating and trying with all their might to provide the service they were designed for. All the while not having the money or resources they need to provide that service effectively. So if it can't function properly it's not working.

Meanwhile, in London those people apparently in charge are keeping their second homes, three holidays a year and big bumper bonuses. But... we're all in it together...

[Livia]

:joker::joker::joker:

the shade of it all! :laugh:

1/resenting new members
2/suggesting I'm a banned member or a multi

any more insults and innuendos? should I report you now or wait a bit longer?

No, go ahead and report me now.

Since the first time you posted, you've talked to me like we've talked before.

And incidentally.... you body-swerved my first paragraph. Funny that.

[jaxie]

Would you like to try your hand at a post relevant to what I actually said?

You claimed there was no suffering. Or no more than usual.

Anyone with eyes and ears knows that's bull.

That was your interpretation of what I said anyway. :hee:

[kirklancaster]

what, spend time proving white is white and black is black? Daily media coverage over the last years have been doing that. Not my fault if you haven't been paying attention.

'Daily Media Coverage' - as you WILL discover when you have been on here a while longer - means absolutely ZILCH, NADA, NOTHING to certain members if it does not support and corroborate their viewpoints.

Such 'Daily Media Coverage', when quoted on here, elicits inane derision such as; "Pah.... It's the Daily Mail, Sun, Star, etc" and the content is irrationally dismissed - even though that same content has been reported in numerous other newspapers and by the BBC or ITV news etc.

And it is not just 'Daily Media Coverage' either which is so conveniently decried because DIRECT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is too and the poster is virtually made out to be a liar - if that direct personal experience also does not coincide with those same members viewpoints.

Opinions are opinions, preferences are preferences, but FACTS are FACTS.

Or should be.

[Marsh.]

That was your interpretation of what I said anyway. :hee:
It wasn't an interpretation, it was what you typed. It's right there.

[Twosugars]

'Daily Media Coverage' - as you WILL discover when you have been on here a while longer - means absolutely ZILCH, NADA, NOTHING to certain members if it does not support and corroborate their viewpoints.

Such 'Daily Media Coverage', when quoted on here, elicits inane derision such as; "Pah.... It's the Daily Mail, Sun, Star, etc" and the content is irrationally dismissed - even though that same content has been reported in numerous other newspapers and by the BBC or ITV news etc.

And it is not just 'Daily Media Coverage' either which is so conveniently decried because DIRECT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is too and the poster is virtually made out to be a liar - if that direct personal experience also does not coincide with those same members viewpoints.

Opinions are opinions, preferences are preferences, but FACTS are FACTS.

Or should be.

ok, so how about professional associations in nhs and police calling on government to stop cutting because it affects functioning of their services?
how about association of local councils warning of dangers to services due to cuts?

edit: and btw, welcome, I understand you are a returning and popular member.
it seems a bit funny for a newbie like me welcoming you, an old-timer

[kirklancaster]

Well that didn't take long did it?

I didn't stand for the tag teaming and the baiting last year and I'm not about to start now.

There were accusations I had run you off the forum, but not from me.

As I said I'm glad you are back but I won't tolerate any of these mocking posts.

No, it didn't take you long Kizzy - did it.

No one's 'Baiting' you and no one is 'Tag-Teaming' you.

You really need to lighten up Kizzy.

[Twosugars]

No, go ahead and report me now.

Since the first time you posted, you've talked to me like we've talked before.

And incidentally.... you body-swerved my first paragraph. Funny that.

I'd rather not report you, Livia. I don't like reporting and I'd rather your posts attacking me stayed here because I find the paranoia in them amusing.

I talk to you as I talk to everybody. We even agree in some threads, I hope you've noticed.

I swerved your paragraph because I'd already started listing areas that are underfunded in response to LT. So now it's your turn to show how everything is just fine.

[kirklancaster]

ok, so how about professional associations in nhs and police calling on government to stop cutting because it affects functioning of their services?
how about association of local councils warning of dangers to services due to cuts?

edit: and btw, welcome, I understand you are a returning and popular member.
it seems a bit funny for a newbie like me welcoming you, an old-timer

I am not disputing any of the above. I can find lots of faults with this Government - as I can EVERY other Government of the past 50 years or so - what I was referring to was your apparent faith that 'Daily Media Coverage' was some kind of 'irrefutable' evidence which can be used on here to help win an argument/debate/ prove a point.

It OUGHT to be, but on TIBB, that depends upon the argument and those whom you are arguing against.

Thank you for the 'Welcome Back', which I appreciate.

[Crimson Dynamo]

start with nhs

OK my mother just had a short stay in a modern well equipped hospital and was well looked after.

She has been in a few times of late and its been the same. You can get a Starbucks in there and an M And S sandwich

[Twosugars]

OK my mother just had a short stay in a modern well equipped hospital and was well looked after.

She has been in a few times of late and its been the same. You can get a Starbucks in there and an M And S sandwich

I'm glad for your Mum, I hope she's ok now.

Hers is not a universal experience though.

[Twosugars]

I am not disputing any of the above. I can find lots of faults with this Government - as I can EVERY other Government of the past 50 years or so - what I was referring to was your apparent faith that 'Daily Media Coverage' was some kind of 'irrefutable' evidence which can be used on here to help win an argument/debate/ prove a point.

It OUGHT to be, but on TIBB, that depends upon the argument and those whom you are arguing against.

Thank you for the 'Welcome Back', which I appreciate.

Thank you, I take your point.

[Livia]

I'd rather not report you, Livia. I don't like reporting and I'd rather your posts attacking me stayed here because I find the paranoia in them amusing.

I talk to you as I talk to everybody. We even agree in some threads, I hope you've noticed.

I swerved your paragraph because I'd already started listing areas that are underfunded in response to LT. So now it's your turn to show how everything is just fine.

Paranoia. That's a pretty hard knee-jerk opinion seeing that you only know me from a forum.

Do whatever you like, but you should know that I won't mind reporting you.

[jet]

'Daily Media Coverage' - as you WILL discover when you have been on here a while longer - means absolutely ZILCH, NADA, NOTHING to certain members if it does not support and corroborate their viewpoints.

Such 'Daily Media Coverage', when quoted on here, elicits inane derision such as; "Pah.... It's the Daily Mail, Sun, Star, etc" and the content is irrationally dismissed - even though that same content has been reported in numerous other newspapers and by the BBC or ITV news etc.

And it is not just 'Daily Media Coverage' either which is so conveniently decried because DIRECT PERSONAL EXPERIENCE is too and the poster is virtually made out to be a liar - if that direct personal experience also does not coincide with those same members viewpoints.

Opinions are opinions, preferences are preferences, but FACTS are FACTS.

Or should be.

Absolutely spot on Kirk!

Some decry the lack of debates when the truth is you can debate, post links and relate personal experiences until you're blue in the face and it is often just brushed off as nonsense as some just refuse to give due consideration to anything than conflicts with their own carved in stone stances.

It's the 'I don't like what you're saying/what that link is saying so I'm not going to believe a word of it' syndrome.
It often makes debates pointless really and a waste of time.

[jaxie]

I am not disputing any of the above. I can find lots of faults with this Government - as I can EVERY other Government of the past 50 years or so - what I was referring to was your apparent faith that 'Daily Media Coverage' was some kind of 'irrefutable' evidence which can be used on here to help win an argument/debate/ prove a point.

It OUGHT to be, but on TIBB, that depends upon the argument and those whom you are arguing against.

Thank you for the 'Welcome Back', which I appreciate.

Exactly the point.

[jaxie]

OK my mother just had a short stay in a modern well equipped hospital and was well looked after.

She has been in a few times of late and its been the same. You can get a Starbucks in there and an M And S sandwich

Glad your mum had a good experience LT, I hope she's feeling better.

[Marsh.]

OK my mother just had a short stay in a modern well equipped hospital and was well looked after.

She has been in a few times of late and its been the same. You can get a Starbucks in there and an M And S sandwich
Ooh well. They have a Starbucks.

Practically the cure of cancer. We've never had it so good.

I'd say the fact that the franchise shops set up in there are the only things you bother to list about this hospital either shows how bad things actually are or rather shows your complete disregard for the actual serious topic and are yet again taking the piss.

[Marsh.]

Exactly the point.
Every government has their faults, so that means we must applaud the current one and not discuss their faults despite that government being in power and those faults affecting us all in a massive way right here and now? Rubbish.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ooh well. They have a Starbucks.

Practically the cure of cancer. We've never had it so good.

I'd say the fact that the franchise shops set up in there are the only things you bother to list about this hospital either shows how bad things actually are or rather shows your complete disregard for the actual serious topic and are yet again taking the piss.

Just highlighting as if it needed it the absurdity of the claim public services are on their knees. I note the claimant has done a runner..

Lol

[Marsh.]

Just highlighting as if it needed it the absurdity of the claim public services are on their knees. I note the claimant has done a runner..

Lol
How does having a Starbucks in a hospital prove or add anything?

You're deliberately being facetious and you know it.

[Twosugars]

Paranoia. That's a pretty hard knee-jerk opinion seeing that you only know me from a forum.

Do whatever you like, but you should know that I won't mind reporting you.

I didn't say you are paranoid, I said there's paranoia in your posts re. me.

I prefer the thread to stay without deletions, including your suspicion of me.

Oh and report away, that's your prerogative.

[Crimson Dynamo]

How does having a Starbucks in a hospital prove or add anything?

You're deliberately being facetious and you know it.

I didn't say it did I was just taken by its inclusion in such a smart new hospital.

In fact through my father's illness and death I was equally impressed by the NHS service. Just as I am by the childrens brand new academy and my other public services like the roads department during this cold spell

[Twosugars]

Just highlighting as if it needed it the absurdity of the claim public services are on their knees. I note the claimant has done a runner..

Lol

Lol, your posts are being absurd. So the winter crisis never happened, people don't wait for hours in a&e, beds are not in corridors, nursing posts are not unfilled, etc etc ad nauseam

Don't know about you, but I have a RL to lead as well as post on here to convince you to get in touch with reality which is quite a boring game, LT.
So fine, argue away that nhs and other services are thriving, not struggling. It's your reputation not mine.

[Twosugars]

Paranoia. That's a pretty hard knee-jerk opinion seeing that you only know me from a forum.

Do whatever you like, but you should know that I won't mind reporting you.

I noticed you swerved my last paragraph.
Where is your list of how great things are in public services?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Lol, your posts are being absurd. So the winter crisis never happened, people don't wait for hours in a&e, beds are not in corridors, nursing posts are not unfilled, etc etc ad nauseam

Don't know about you, but I have a RL to lead as well as post on here to convince you to get in touch with reality which is quite a boring game, LT.
So fine, argue away that nhs and other services are thriving, not struggling. It's your reputation not mine.

I'm afraid you made a claim you can't back up and we all can see that. I provided a list of public services and so far you have not dealt with it save some generic statement about a part of the NHS?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Public sector workers are actually paid significantly better than their peers in the private sector – peers whose salaries and businesses pay the taxes that fund government to pay for the public sector in the first place. Accounting for so-called "worker characteristics", public sector pay is around 4 per cent higher.

And this is before you factor in the public sector’s longer holidays, shorter working hours, greater (or effectively total) job security and pension entitlements – which as a rule are considerably more generous.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/09/12/public-sector-workers-really-badly-paid/

[Twosugars]

I'm afraid you made a claim you can't back up and we all can see that. I provided a list of public services and so far you have not dealt with it save some generic statement about a part of the NHS?

:laugh:
:fist:hello! everybody! I'm so ashamed! LT asked me to prove public services are struggling and I can't be bothered! Which of course means they are not struggling and don't let anybody tell you otherwise and if you see any evidence of such struggles, remember, they don't exist!

Just kill me now, I can't stand this shame :facepalm:

[Crimson Dynamo]

:laugh:
:fist:hello! everybody! I'm so ashamed! LT asked me to prove public services are struggling and I can't be bothered! Which of course means they are not struggling and don't let anybody tell you otherwise and if you see any evidence of such struggles, remember, they don't exist!

Just kill me now, I can't stand this shame :facepalm:

There is no shame in being wrong, just in failure of admission.

[Marsh.]

I didn't say it did I was just taken by its inclusion in such a smart new hospital.

In fact through my father's illness and death I was equally impressed by the NHS service. Just as I am by the childrens brand new academy and my other public services like the roads department during this cold spell

So, when in a debate about how effective our public services are you chose to commend them on a completely different company and their lovely coffee. [emoji23]

Forgive me if I don't find coffee and M&S sandwiches a convincing counter argument to the state of the NHS and how much has been taken from the disabled and vulnerable.

I'm glad your father was treated well in his final days. There's a hell of a lot of fantastic staff who do a great job. Making it all of the more shameful that the government are tying their hands behind their backs and trying to destroy it.

[Twosugars]

There is no shame in being wrong, just in failure of admission.

so tell us other good stories from the sunny uplands of brexit britain
we had budget surplus achieved without public services struggling, but surely there must be more after 7 years of this glorious government

[jaxie]

Every government has their faults, so that means we must applaud the current one and not discuss their faults despite that government being in power and those faults affecting us all in a massive way right here and now? Rubbish.

I didn't say all that, that's all you Marsh.

[Marsh.]

I didn't say all that, that's all you Marsh.
Well if that's not what you meant then there's absolutely no reason for you to reply to criticisms of the current government with "they've all had their faults". Your comment is irrelevant and meaningless otherwise.

[jaxie]

Well if that's not what you meant then there's absolutely no reason for you to reply to criticisms of the current government with "they've all had their faults". Your comment is irrelevant and meaningless otherwise.

Oh well thanks for telling me and putting all the words in my mouth for me. I'll just sit over here and let you speak for me shall I?

[Marsh.]

Oh well thanks for telling me and putting all the words in my mouth for me. I'll just sit over here and let you speak for me shall I?
Well with every reply you're not adding anything but telling me my understanding of your post is wrong.

So, elaborate and discuss it...? You know, a discussion....

[DemolitionRed]

I had to leave the social service side of the NHS because I no longer agreed with its 'duty of care' standards. I couldn't work with a manager who used words like "get rid" when he was talking about patients. Everything was focused on reducing services and passing the buck to the local council who equally can't afford to deal with growing problems of a large aging population.

When you work for the Trust, especially if you're in admin, you know you're working for a private company. All the focus is on number crunching, cutting back on 'unnecessary' services and making profits. Staff aren't employed anymore on yearly contracts, they are employed on 3 month contracts and have to keep re-applying. The pressure to meet unreasonable deadlines is awful, the job often impossible. In the past 5 years its changed massively.

[Kizzy]

No, it didn't take you long Kizzy - did it.

No one's 'Baiting' you and no one is 'Tag-Teaming' you.

You really need to lighten up Kizzy.

Then stop with the sniping comments, I won't respond to any more I'll just report them.

[AnnieK]

I had to leave the social service side of the NHS because I no longer agreed with its 'duty of care' standards. I couldn't work with a manager who used words like "get rid" when he was talking about patients. Everything was focused on reducing services and passing the buck to the local council who equally can't afford to deal with growing problems of a large aging population.

When you work for the Trust, especially if you're in admin, you know you're working for a private company. All the focus is on number crunching, cutting back on 'unnecessary' services and making profits. Staff aren't employed anymore on yearly contracts, they are employed on 3 month contracts and have to keep re-applying. The pressure to meet unreasonable deadlines is awful, the job often impossible. In the past 5 years its changed massively.

I think the second paragraph of you post depends on the Trust. I work closely with a Trust here and their admin staff don't have to re apply every 3 months.

However, I do know of a number of people who feel that things changed dramatically in the NHS during and after Agenda for Change.

[Kizzy]

I had to leave the social service side of the NHS because I no longer agreed with its 'duty of care' standards. I couldn't work with a manager who used words like "get rid" when he was talking about patients. Everything was focused on reducing services and passing the buck to the local council who equally can't afford to deal with growing problems of a large aging population.

When you work for the Trust, especially if you're in admin, you know you're working for a private company. All the focus is on number crunching, cutting back on 'unnecessary' services and making profits. Staff aren't employed anymore on yearly contracts, they are employed on 3 month contracts and have to keep re-applying. The pressure to meet unreasonable deadlines is awful, the job often impossible. In the past 5 years its changed massively.

My sis is a specialist opmathological nurse and she had to leave for the same reason, they were sending old people away without a referral or follow up effectively knowing by the time they were referred back via a GP there was a good chance they would be blind.

[Kizzy]

'The latest public borrowing data shows that on a 12-month rolling sum basis, the current budget – which excludes capital investment – actually went into surplus in November 2017.'


'However, the IFS stressed on Friday that this improvement did not mean the pain of the cuts already pencilled in for benefits or public spending could – or were likely to be – cancelled simply due to the recent improvement.

“On current policy, ‘austerity’ is far from over,” said Carl Emmerson, deputy director of the IFS.'



Why?...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/austerity-spring-statement-institute-for-fiscal-studies-philip-hammond-chancellor-a8247226.html

[DemolitionRed]

'The latest public borrowing data shows that on a 12-month rolling sum basis, the current budget – which excludes capital investment – actually went into surplus in November 2017.'


'However, the IFS stressed on Friday that this improvement did not mean the pain of the cuts already pencilled in for benefits or public spending could – or were likely to be – cancelled simply due to the recent improvement.

“On current policy, ‘austerity’ is far from over,” said Carl Emmerson, deputy director of the IFS.'



Why?...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/austerity-spring-statement-institute-for-fiscal-studies-philip-hammond-chancellor-a8247226.html

Because the gilt side of government spending (which is huge) can no longer rely on new money. I'm not surprised a few big businesses have already gone under and that the government didn't step in to help Carilion. If the government were beyond full capacity by November they would of had to dip into their surplus to help out because they could no longer issue bonds. This, I suspect, is why there was a mad rush by investors to sell shares and buy bonds.

In normal circumstances the government would simply print new money and turn that new money into gilts/bonds which are purchased by investors looking and needing an asset free risk. Because the interest rates are so low on those bonds its a very attractive way of borrowing and for the government, those bonds are a very low security risk for the treasury. When a government can no longer print new money, new bonds dry up, which will happen if we continue to be in the black and this will create a spiral of chaos. The investors will have to turn to more expensive and unreliable borrowing and will likely default on the government debt they already possess.

This is what happened when Clinton celebrated nearly four years of being in the black. Things like subprime mortgages had continued on high risk borrowing and shortly after Bush came into office, they started defaulting on those debts. The sudden fall of the banks had been an accident waiting to happen and the reason we fell with them is because of the pounds ties to the dollar.

I suspect the government believe that if they can turn enough old money (tax payers money and what has created the surplus) into gilts and bonds which they can then sell to investors, they can survive with an ongoing surplus. The problem here is, its the tax payers that will take all responsibility for the bonds market and the only way they can do that is with less public spending.

[DemolitionRed]

We are all being fed a lie and those in precarious situations are about to get more vulnerable still. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/10/poverty-benefits-families-cuts-austerity-hammond-poor-welfare

[Brillopad]

We are all being fed a lie and those in precarious situations are about to get more vulnerable still. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/10/poverty-benefits-families-cuts-austerity-hammond-poor-welfare

The Guardian :rolleyes: They thrive on creating a bleak picture under the Tories and spewing their leftist bile. Does anyone really take this paper seriously anymore. :shrug:

[Twosugars]

The Guardian :rolleyes: They thrive on creating a bleak picture under the Tories and spewing their leftist bile. Does anyone really take this paper seriously anymore. :shrug:

The answer is yes, more seriously than ever before. :hee:
Even Tories publish in the Guardian, May herself wrote a piece a couple of days ago. Of course the paper is still centre-left, but they are not afraid to publish people who don't agree with the editorial line.
Also, The Guardian online is more and more influential globally, especially in the US.

[Kizzy]

The Guardian :rolleyes: They thrive on creating a bleak picture under the Tories and spewing their leftist bile. Does anyone really take this paper seriously anymore. :shrug:

This is govt policy do you think it would be any different depending on who reports on it?.... No, it would still be exactly the same policies, get some perspective!

[DemolitionRed]

The Guardian :rolleyes: They thrive on creating a bleak picture under the Tories and spewing their leftist bile. Does anyone really take this paper seriously anymore. :shrug:

Denying the truth doesn't change the facts.