Saudi prince visit

[Kizzy]

Ok... Why are we not discussing this?

'Saudi Arabia has signed a provisional agreement with the British Government to buy 48 of the UK’s Typhoon fighter jets.

If finalised, the deal struck on the final day of the visit from Saudi Crown Prince Mohammad bin Salman would be a major boost for BAE Systems – which employs some 35,000 people in Britain.

But with the Saudi regime embroiled in a bloody bombing campaign in Yemen, which has killed large numbers of civilians and precipitated a humanitarian crisis, the deal will anger anti-war campaigners.'

Thoughts?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/saudi-arabia-uk-typhoon-jets-defence-mohammad-bin-salman-yemen-visit-williamson-a8247971.html

[Beso]

Disgusting photo.....the handshake one.....

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well if you don't understand business I guess you will be disappointed but I guess you don't count?

[DemolitionRed]

Well if you don't understand business I guess you will be disappointed but I guess you don't count?

Well you clearly don't. We have just given the Saudis a £100million aid deal before making a deal with them to buy something off us for £10million. Do the maths!

[smudgie]

I thought the deal target was 65billion altogether.

[MTVN]

Valuable allies who have prevented several terror attacks in the UK

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yep, good business

[DemolitionRed]

What about the humanitarian side. Does that matter to you guys or do you think mass famine and the bombing of civilians is worth it if it makes our economy stronger?

[Kizzy]

Valuable allies who have prevented several terror attacks in the UK

And that's the crux of it really, if no white people die ethically you're clean as a whistle?

ok

[Toy Soldier]

Well you clearly don't. We have just given the Saudis a £100million aid deal before making a deal with them to buy something off us for £10million. Do the maths!Dr... As horrifying as this figure is; Typhoons cost upwards of £100 million EACH. 45 of them would sell for at least £4.5 Billion.

[MTVN]

And that's the crux of it really, if no white people die ethically you're clean as a whistle?

ok

What has race got to do with the Yemini civil war?

[Kizzy]

What has race got to do with the Yemini civil war?

Everything, that's where this 'business angle' comes from, should the guy be wanting to buy arms to attack say Denmark or Canada... Would the reaction be the same?

[MTVN]

Everything, that's where this 'business angle' comes from, should the guy be wanting to buy arms to attack say Denmark or Canada... Would the reaction be the same?

Well they are not 'attacking' Yemen, they are supporting the government there

[Kizzy]

Well they are not 'attacking' Yemen, they are supporting the government there

ok

[Northern Monkey]

Apparently beheadings have gone up under this guy too.
But tbh,If we refused to do deals with any shady characters around the world we probably wouldn’t do any deals at all.Nobody’s whiter than white.Plus it pays to keep your allies sweet incase you ever need them.

[Ammi]

What about the humanitarian side. Does that matter to you guys or do you think mass famine and the bombing of civilians is worth it if it makes our economy stronger?

..there is no one who is saying ‘mass famine and the bombing of civilians is worth it’ though, DR...that’s a very strawman thing to throw out there and quite unfair and unnecessary...sadly as unsavoury as it may feel at times with things like this, ‘foreign relations’ are necessary though for any country and all countries and their ‘national interests’ as deemed by their governments...sometimes trade deals like this have to be done, it’s a sad reality of life because the world is not and will never be ‘ideal’ ...or anywhere near really...people have just expressed an understanding of that, the necessity of that...not any type of ‘satisfaction of...oh, that’s worth it then...

[kirklancaster]

Why does Colour - especially 'WHITE' - and Race have to be brought into this topic?

The Left-Wing ethos is sooooo confusing.

Everyone working (below Managerial level anyway, it seems) should be paid 'Top Dollar'

Everyone on benefits (scammers inclusive) should be paid 'Top dollar'

Everyone in the UK should own and live in a beautiful cottage with a white-picket fence and roses growing around the front porch.

Everyone in the UK (AND anyone from outside it) should get 'Top Dollar' treatment on the NHS - buckshee.

Of course, this 'Shangri La' would have to be paid for.

And THAT entails Businesses, Corporations and Government MAKING money.

And when it comes to making money when EVERY company, EVERY Corporation, and EVERY Government on this Globe are competing against each other, OUR Businesses, OUR Corporations and OUR Government should be guided by Brech

“First comes food then morality”

I said 'guided' - not slavishly and blindly followed, because it is obviously cretinous for, say, a local hardware store to sell bomb-making equipment to a one-eyed, scar-faced, Middle-Eastern-looking gent in full camouflage gear as much as it would be for our Government to sell fighter jets to terrorist regimes.

But the Saudis are NOT a 'Terrorist Regime. As Matt says - they are supporting the legitimate government in Yemen.

And just WHERE does all this Left-Wing, P.C. B.S. end?

Let's stop all sales of carving knives in case some psycho uses one for stabbing someone.

Stop all sales of rope in case some abductor uses a length to bind his victim.

Stop all sales of cars/trucks/buses in case some terrorist nut-job uses one to plough into innocent pedestrians.

It is ALL B.S.

Let everyone and anyone into the UK on P.C./Humanitarian grounds, then moan and whine;

that our already creaking services - cannot cope and are failing.

You get the idea.

This Saudi deal SHOULD be applauded.

And is being by this member.

[Kizzy]

..there is no one who is saying ‘mass famine and the bombing of civilians is worth it’ though, DR...that’s a very strawman thing to throw out there and quite unfair and unnecessary...sadly as unsavoury as it may feel at times with things like this, ‘foreign relations’ are necessary though for any country and all countries and their ‘national interests’ as deemed by their governments...sometimes trade deals like this have to be done, it’s a sad reality of life because the world is not and will never be ‘ideal’ ...or anywhere near really...people have just expressed an understanding of that, the necessity of that...not any type of ‘satisfaction of...oh, that’s worth it then...

No it isn't... It's entirely relevant and part of the bigger picture. It's just that the bigger picture i so heinous many can't bring themselves to acknowledge it exists.

Effectively what is being said is they have money, we need money, we'll turn a blind eye?

[Kizzy]

Why does Colour - especially 'WHITE' - and Race have to be brought into this topic?

The Left-Wing ethos is sooooo confusing.

Everyone working (below Managerial level anyway, it seems) should be paid 'Top Dollar'

Everyone on benefits (scammers inclusive) should be paid 'Top dollar'

Everyone in the UK should own and live in a beautiful cottage with a white-picket fence and roses growing around the front porch.

Everyone in the UK (AND anyone from outside it) should get 'Top Dollar' treatment on the NHS - buckshee.

Of course, this 'Shangri La' would have to be paid for.

And THAT entails Businesses, Corporations and Government MAKING money.

And when it comes to making money when EVERY company, EVERY Corporation, and EVERY Government on this Globe are competing against each other, OUR Businesses, OUR Corporations and OUR Government should be guided by Brech

“First comes food then morality”

I said 'guided' - not slavishly and blindly followed, because it is obviously cretinous for, say, a local hardware store to sell bomb-making equipment to a one-eyed, scar-faced, Middle-Eastern-looking gent in full camouflage gear as much as it would be for our Government to sell fighter jets to terrorist regimes.

But the Saudis are NOT a 'Terrorist Regime. As Matt says - they are supporting the legitimate government in Yemen.

And just WHERE does all this Left-Wing, P.C. B.S. end?

Let's stop all sales of carving knives in case some psycho uses one for stabbing someone.

Stop all sales of rope in case some abductor uses a length to bind his victim.

Stop all sales of cars/trucks/buses in case some terrorist nut-job uses one to plough into innocent pedestrians.

It is ALL B.S.

Let everyone and anyone into the UK on P.C./Humanitarian grounds, then moan and whine;

that our already creaking services - cannot cope and are failing.

You get the idea.

This Saudi deal SHOULD be applauded.

And is being by this member.

Because is is specifically relevant to MY point in MY post, it is not a left wing ethos.

I too believe we should be guided by Brecht in particular 'Zweckpropaganda'

I'm not sure what your intention was when posting 'first the grub, then the morality' (correct translation) it was however written to show the hypocrisy of the church siding with the establishment of the day while all around people died of poverty and starvation.... How cyclic history can be.

They may not be a terrorist regime to us that's correct, and in his own country there may have been some concession on the strict laws governing the rights of women, however to the people of Yemen...

My PC BS will NEVER end., your knives and rope analogy reminds me of the thread in which the republican asks 'should we ban homework?' when the kids asked for revised gun laws, it's the same hysterical nonsensical response.

Oh I doubt we will be accepting any more refugees from anywhere, least of all the Yemen no matter how much blood we have on our hands.

[Oliver_W]

What would be achieved by cutting ties with the Saudis?
- we'd lose out on a lot of money
- we'd be in the bad books of a powerful islamic nation, who could easily send terrorists our way
- we would possibly lose out on a lot of oil
- they would get their weapons from elsewhere anyway.

We should only cut them off when we have sustainable renewable energy, and if we were willing to control our borders and properly and fully vet people coming from the Middle East.

[DemolitionRed]

..there is no one who is saying ‘mass famine and the bombing of civilians is worth it’ though, DR...that’s a very strawman thing to throw out there and quite unfair and unnecessary...sadly as unsavoury as it may feel at times with things like this, ‘foreign relations’ are necessary though for any country and all countries and their ‘national interests’ as deemed by their governments...sometimes trade deals like this have to be done, it’s a sad reality of life because the world is not and will never be ‘ideal’ ...or anywhere near really...people have just expressed an understanding of that, the necessity of that...not any type of ‘satisfaction of...oh, that’s worth it then...

"Strawman" an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.

"Strawman" a person regarded as having no substance or integrity.

What a very odd use of a word when what I said has everything to do with the reasons people, not just me, are campaigning against arms sales to the Saudis.
I agree that foreign relations are necessary but not if it means we have to get blood on our hands. Like Kizzy said, "would we sell arms to a country that wanted to bomb Denmark or Canada"? Why is the suffering in Yemen less serious than other countries we would staunchly protect? fcuk keeping good relations with a country that publicly beheads women that secretly date a man of their choosing.

And what I said has everything to do with the topic. We were asked for thoughts and that's what I gave. I didn't give thoughts about picking up dog siht, I gave thoughts on the topic so get off your high horse and just for a moment, think about why I said what I said.

[DemolitionRed]

What would be achieved by cutting ties with the Saudis?
- we'd lose out on a lot of money
- we'd be in the bad books of a powerful islamic nation, who could easily send terrorists our way
- we would possibly lose out on a lot of oil
- they would get their weapons from elsewhere anyway.

We should only cut them off when we have sustainable renewable energy, and if we were willing to control our borders and properly and fully vet people coming from the Middle East.

It was the West that put the Saudi Royals in place and it will be the West who destroy the Saudis if they ever close their door to the West. From our history of wars in the Middle East, I suspect its the Saudi's that are more wary of us than we are of them.

[bots]

You form bonds of trust and friendship by mutually beneficial trade. By creating those bonds of trust and friendship, you increase your influence and lessen the chances of future conflict. It's not hard to understand

[DemolitionRed]

The now ex president of Yemen did littles to stop the al-Qaeda, a separatist movement and that's why Shia and Sunni's alike decided to overthrow their government. We know that al-Qaeda are offshoots of Wahhabism and that Wahhabism is a Saudi ideology. We also know that ISIS are offshoots of al-Qaeda. Since the Saudis intervened al-Qaeda have taken back swathes of the country. To support the Saudi's in this war is to support al-Qaeda.

[Northern Monkey]

If we weren’t selling them aircraft and weapons and offering expertise then they’d only be using less accurate unguided Russian bombs with more civilian casualties and Russia reaping the benefits.Of course it would be great if military weapons weren’t used or needed but If There’s arms to be sold then it may aswell be us selling them and creating the jobs for our people whilst gaining the financial benefits.Along with having an ally in the Middle East.

[DemolitionRed]

If we weren’t selling them aircraft and weapons and offering expertise then they’d only be using less accurate unguided Russian bombs with more civilian casualties and Russia reaping the benefits.Of course it would be great if military weapons weren’t used or needed but If There’s arms to be sold then it may aswell be us selling them and creating the jobs for our people whilst gaining the financial benefits.Along with having an ally in the Middle East.

Russia has repeatedly condemned Saudi airstrikes and firmly support a peaceful resolution, unlike America who immediately took sides with the Saudis. If the Russians were going to support anyone or sell arms to anyone it would be pro-Iran factions.

[Northern Monkey]

Russia has repeatedly condemned Saudi airstrikes and firmly support a peaceful resolution, unlike America who immediately took sides with the Saudis. If the Russians were going to support anyone or sell arms to anyone it would be pro-Iran factions.

I’m sure they’d be happy to sell arms to almost anyone for the right price.

[DemolitionRed]

I’m sure they’d be happy to sell arms to almost anyone for the right price.

Well they clearly haven't. As protectorates of Iran and the only reason the West isn't obliterating Iran, they have taken the side of the Shiite but from my research, they haven't yet provided them with arms.

[Oliver_W]

It was the West that put the Saudi Royals in place and it will be the West who destroy the Saudis if they ever close their door to the West. From our history of wars in the Middle East, I suspect its the Saudi's that are more wary of us than we are of them.

I wouldn't suggest we "destroy" anyone, but if we close our doors to the Saudis, we should do so to the Middle East. And I didn't necessarily mean they would openly announce war, but just send more terrorists our way through asylum or otherwise normal immigration.

[DemolitionRed]

I wouldn't suggest we "destroy" anyone, but if we close our doors to the Saudis, we should do so to the Middle East. And I didn't necessarily mean they would openly announce war, but just send more terrorists our way through asylum or otherwise normal immigration.

But that would suggest that we are holding their hands to prevent further terrorism on our small island. We are holding their hand because of money. Money therefore is worth more than random lives. Some people can accept that, I can't.

[Oliver_W]

But that would suggest that we are holding their hands to prevent further terrorism on our small island.
I don't necessarily think we're "holding hands" to specifically prevent terrorism, but terrorism will possibly be a consequence of letting go.

[DemolitionRed]

So Oliver, are you saying we are doing this out of fear?

[Oliver_W]

No, for money and oil mainly.

[bots]

Russia were quite happy to sell weapons to Iraq during Saddam's time, the country whom Iran were at war with almost constantly, so they didn't give a crap then about arming anyone

[Ammi]

No, for money and oil mainly.

..sadly I’m feeling the Brexit vote will only make these unsavoury foreign relations deals become more and more for the UK government specifically...that Brexit won’t make for ‘’independance’ at all...we haven’t given ourselves more freedom of ‘selectivity’ in foreign trade deals, surely...?...what we’ve done..(..as a nation’s vote..)...is tied and bonded ourselves more and more to these kinds of deals which cause so much life loss...

[DemolitionRed]

Russia were quite happy to sell weapons to Iraq during Saddam's time, the country whom Iran were at war with almost constantly, so they didn't give a crap then about arming anyone

Its not only Russia that make irresponsible arms transfers. Russia, USA, Germany, China, France, Germany and the UK all inadvertently armed ISIS.

[Northern Monkey]

If the West didn’t do deals with the Saudis can you honestly see Russian arms manufacturers passing up lucrative contracts with them?I can’t.
Money trumps politics.

[Kizzy]

..sadly I’m feeling the Brexit vote will only make these unsavoury foreign relations deals become more and more for the UK government specifically...that Brexit won’t make for ‘’independance’ at all...we haven’t given ourselves more freedom of ‘selectivity’ in foreign trade deals, surely...?...what we’ve done..(..as a nation’s vote..)...is tied and bonded ourselves more and more to these kinds of deals which cause so much life loss...

I'm glad the penny is propping for some, if we are not trading with our closest allies and neighbours in Europe the ones for whom it has always been assured we had the 'shared values' with whom will we trade?... Where will the workforce we so desperately need come from.... Outside Europe, from those countries with dubious at best human rights records, or no human rights at all. How will that affect out workers rights?

The leavers who voted leave in the hope that indeed their passports will be blue and faces white are going to be VERY dissapointed :/

[Kizzy]

If the West didn’t do deals with the Saudis can you honestly see Russian arms manufacturers passing up lucrative contracts with them?I can’t.
Money trumps politics.

So it doesn't matter is you are complicit in the killing of innocent people for money? Right so from now on should I hear on this forum any mention of anyone cosying up to anyone as they align themselves with those who kill I will just quote this. Thank you.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/british-arms-deals-with-saudi-arabia-high-court

[Crimson Dynamo]

So it doesn't matter is you are complicit in the killing of innocent people for money? Right so from now on should I hear on this forum any mention of anyone cosying up to anyone as they align themselves with those who kill I will just quote this. Thank you.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/british-arms-deals-with-saudi-arabia-high-court

I dont think that is a concern here

[Brillopad]

Its not only Russia that make irresponsible arms transfers. Russia, USA, Germany, China, France, Germany and the UK all inadvertently armed ISIS.

What is this - an attempt to excuse ISIS themselves for their own actions and simply blame the West yet again.

[Kizzy]

I dont think that is a concern here

ok

[Twosugars]

..sadly I’m feeling the Brexit vote will only make these unsavoury foreign relations deals become more and more for the UK government specifically...that Brexit won’t make for ‘’independance’ at all...we haven’t given ourselves more freedom of ‘selectivity’ in foreign trade deals, surely...?...what we’ve done..(..as a nation’s vote..)...is tied and bonded ourselves more and more to these kinds of deals which cause so much life loss...
:clap2:

[DemolitionRed]

I dont think that is a concern here

Well its obviously not a concern to you but please don't speak for us all.

[DemolitionRed]

What is this - an attempt to excuse ISIS themselves for their own actions and simply blame the West yet again.

Why would that be excusing ISIS. Do you actually know anything about ISIS. How they formed, how they got the arms they needed? If you think the history behind how ISIS grew is somehow excusing them, you need to go and have a serious word with yourself.

[Twosugars]

What is this - an attempt to excuse ISIS themselves for their own actions and simply blame the West yet again.

Far from it.
But don't you think that the West has a duty of care as to where their weapons may end up? I mean possible likely scenarios. Saudi-wahhabism-terror groups link has been open secret for decades. As the west we constantly put ourselves on moral high ground and interfere in other countries based on that. It's only right we make sure and apply our highly moral stance to arms sales.

[Brillopad]

Why would that be excusing ISIS. Do you actually know anything about ISIS. How they formed, how they got the arms they needed? If you think the history behind how ISIS grew is somehow excusing them, you need to go and have a serious word with yourself.

Spare me! I don’t need to have a word with myself as I simply don’t care about any of it.

[jet]

So it doesn't matter is you are complicit in the killing of innocent people for money? Right so from now on should I hear on this forum any mention of anyone cosying up to anyone as they align themselves with those who kill I will just quote this. Thank you.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/12/british-arms-deals-with-saudi-arabia-high-court

So it doesn't matter if you are complicit in the killing of innocent people as long as you don't do it for money?

[DemolitionRed]

Spare me! I don’t need to have a word with myself as I simply don’t care about any of it.

I know you don't but you still have this urge to make me out as a terrorist sympathizer!

[Kizzy]

So it doesn't matter if you are complicit in the killing of innocent people as long as you don't do it for money?

In what universe did I say it didn't matter if you are complicit in the killing of innocent people as long as it wasn't for money....I know for damn sure it wasn't this one!

Do not put words in my mouth please!

[jet]

In what universe did I say it didn't matter if you are complicit in the killing of innocent people as long as it wasn't for money....I know for damn sure it wasn't this one!

Do not put words in my mouth please!

I wasn't talking about you personally, I was talking about someone you admire.

[Kizzy]

I wasn't talking about you personally, I was talking about someone you admire.

Nobody I admire is complicit in the deaths of innocents either.

[jet]

Nobody I admire is complicit in the deaths of innocents either.

Ok.

[arista]

Saudi Arabia Prince, Again
this October 2023
is Flying to the UK
to meet our King,

New UK - Saudi Arabia Free Trade deal to be Signed



Protest all you want
he will not meet them................................

[bots]

is he bringing his usual suitcase of cash for the king?

[arista]

is he bringing his usual suitcase of cash for the king?


Yes
in secret.

[arista]

Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman invited to visit UK


[It would be the prince's first UK visit since the
Evil murder of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi
at the Saudi consulate in Istanbul, Turkey in 2018.]

[arista]

ew

hate those evil saudi's

He has Massive Money
Owns many Football Clubs.

Has WWE performing in their nation
features a few Arab Wrestlers.

Macron had him in France last year.


The King will shake his hand.

Life Moves On.