The UK PM Expels 23 Russian diplomats

[arista]

Just one of her measures
against Russia .


Live all Media now


https://news.sky.com/story/live-spy-poison-deadline-passes-as-russia-threatens-response-11289189
Russia warns of retaliation for diplomat expulsions

[hijaxers]

A stronger response than i thought there would be.

[Tom4784]

A good move although it ultimately won't achieve anything as Russia will respond in kind and that will be that until diplomatic relations are quietly resumed a few months down the line once the story's blown over.

We're not really in a position to put any pressure on Russia.

[arista]

A stronger response than i thought there would be.


Yes but Russia will tit for tat
they have said they can match all attacks on them,

[jet]

Good. A strong response is appropriate because of the use of a nerve agent for the first time in the alliance since the foundation of NATO and is against international law. It endangered the lives of many innocent citizens and the security forces.
We can't show a bully and egomaniac like Putin any weakness.

[Livia]

I was gratified to see that NATO has backed us 100%. I wonder whether this will give May the impetus to invoke NATO's Article 5 on Collective Defence which states "‘the Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all’. It's only ever been used once before, by the USA after 9/11

[Oliver_W]

I think this situation will make her come into her own as PM. Her speech on Monday was brilliant, and showed great strength, and showed Corbyn's usual pointless mewlings as what they were, especially when he made a misjudged swipe at party donations.

[Livia]

I agree with that, Oliver. I've not been impressed with May generally... but she is showing strength in this. Corbyn's reaction has been predictable claiming that he doesn't believe it was the Russians and that MI5&6 may be wrong. Labour'a Welsh first minister, Carwyn Jones, tweeted his support for what May said. It gives me faith in Labour when I see a prominent Labour minister distancing himself from Corbyn.

[jet]

Yes, Corbyn showed he isn't up to dealing with vitally important defence issues with his wishy washy appeasement spiel and being the usual opportunist in trying to score cheap political points at a time when there should be an all - party unity.
Thank goodness he isn't PM. Putin would make mincemeat out of him.

[Northern Monkey]

Yes, Corbyn showed he isn't up to dealing with vitally important defence issues with his wishy washy appeasement spiel and being the usual opportunist in trying to score cheap political points at a time when there should be an all - party unity.
Thank goodness he isn't PM. Putin would make mincemeat out of him.

Yep he doesn’t fill me with confidence.I saw his response to the PM’s latest speech.He floats around the issue of Russia and tried scoring points again going on about cuts to diplomats or something.It didn’t go down well.

[Kizzy]

Only fools rush in.....Especially with Russ ia

[Underscore]

Credit where credit's due.

She's been absolutely amazing this week and has been the kind of strong PM (foreign policy wise) I want to see more of.

[Kizzy]

Imagine if this heavy handed approach creates a refugee crisis from the UK, and we are in boats to France and they push us back?....

#bestofBitishblackhumour

[AnnieK]

I think she has handled it well although it makes me nervous as Russia will not be intimidated and will just retaliate with like for like.

Think Mrs May was damned if she did and damned if she didn't this week....whatever she did would be condemned by some and celebrated by others

[Kizzy]

She's trying to protect the money tree is all...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-vladimir-putin-theresa-may-sergei-skripal-magnitsky-laws-a8253786.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/corbyn-russia-sergei-skripal-money-laundering-magnitsky-act-understands-foreign-policy-a8253446.html

[Twosugars]

I'm glad Rudd announced an inquiry into the 14 suspicious deaths connected to Russia. It's too late but it is needed.
I hope May does more than expelling "diplomats", Russia has been taking the piss for long enough.

[MTVN]

Jeremy Corbyn's spokesman has said there is not yet definitive proof the Russian state was behind the attempted murder of a former spy in Salisbury.

He said the most likely explanation was Russia that was "directly or indirectly responsible" for the attack but "culpability takes many forms".

He pointed to the "problematic history" of UK intelligence on chemical weapons.

It came as several Labour MPs called for their leader to be firmer in his condemnation of Russia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43405680

973949487424077829

[Twosugars]

I agree with Corbyn that we should be going after dirty money from Russia. But I wish he stopped pussy-footing and be more convincing on Russia, nato and defence in general.

[user104658]

Honestly, I thought I had seen it all when it comes to the UK / political delusion, but apparently not. Now people seem to believe that the UK can actually "do something about" Russia.

Are you serious?

The UK can't "do anything to Russia" that amounts to more than shooting peas at an attack helicopter.

"Oh yes I know that the United States of America - the world's largest military and an economic superpower - hasn't been able to effectively tackle Russia's bull**** for the past half century or more... But hey... Theresa May's finally going to give them what for!"

:facepalm:

[Kizzy]

How much more convincing do you need to be?... He he been shown to be correct in all matters when it comes to intervention of this type.

I feel it's the conservatives attempts at creating a political sandstorm around this issue to mask their own involvement with regard to money laundering, the purchase of citizenship as well as questionable donations.

[jet]

Honestly, I thought I had seen it all when it comes to the UK / political delusion, but apparently not. Now people seem to believe that the UK can actually "do something about" Russia.

Are you serious?

The UK can't "do anything to Russia" that amounts to more than shooting peas at an attack helicopter.

"Oh yes I know that the United States of America - the world's largest military and an economic superpower - hasn't been able to effectively tackle Russia's bull**** for the past half century or more... But hey... Theresa May's finally going to give them what for!"

:facepalm:

Who is saying this?
I haven't heard anything of that sort being said. :conf:

[MTVN]

How much more convincing do you need to be?... He he been shown to be correct in all matters when it comes to intervention of this type.

I feel it's the conservatives attempts at creating a political sandstorm around this issue to mask their own involvement with regard to money laundering, the purchase of citizenship as well as questionable donations.

Hardly, he just takes the default line of opposing any action by NATO and the West

[Oliver_W]

Jeremy Corbyn's spokesman has said there is not yet definitive proof the Russian state was behind the attempted murder of a former spy in Salisbury.

Yup, so did Mrs May herself.

[Kizzy]

Hardly, he just takes the default line of opposing any action by NATO and the West

And how difficult is it to go against the majority and toe the line every time and be totally vindicated every single tine?...

What do people want in a leader, one who bumbles along on the misinformation of the majority or who has the courage of convictions?

Isn't that what was admired in Churchill?....

[user104658]

This is a completely insane piece of posturing and Ms May is flat out incompetent. I have little more to say on this than that. Absolutely ****ing barmy, I hope Wee Nic is on the phone to Moscow letting them know that we don't agree with May's actions.

[Twosugars]

Honestly, I thought I had seen it all when it comes to the UK / political delusion, but apparently not. Now people seem to believe that the UK can actually "do something about" Russia.

Are you serious?

The UK can't "do anything to Russia" that amounts to more than shooting peas at an attack helicopter.

"Oh yes I know that the United States of America - the world's largest military and an economic superpower - hasn't been able to effectively tackle Russia's bull**** for the past half century or more... But hey... Theresa May's finally going to give them what for!"

:facepalm:
you are incorrect re. the west not tackling russia - we won the cold war.

as for now, nobody is saying we should be starting another war!
but at the same time we cannot just ignore yet another incident like that
it's all about appropriate response.
some people in russia (putin etc) never gave up on russian empire and try to turn the clock back any way they can. they can't compete economically, so they do it by force (crimea, georgia, ukraine) or they resort to dirty tricks like trying to destabilise the west from the inside
we need to start reacting, not ignoring it coz it will make them even bolder

[MTVN]

Not sure what makes Russia so invincible really - their economy is the size of Italy, a lot of their infrastructure is crumbling, they no longer have as much control over Eastern Europe and they don't have many friends internationally

And how difficult is it to go against the majority and toe the line every time and be totally vindicated every single tine?...

What do people want in a leader, one who bumbles along on the misinformation of the majority or who has the courage of convictions?

Isn't that what was admired in Churchill?....

No he has not been vindicated every single time, have a look at his record on Kosovo

[user104658]

Not sure what makes Russia so invincible really - their economy is the size of Italy, a lot of their infrastructure is crumbling, they no longer have as much control over Eastern Europe and they don't have many friends internationally



No he has not been vindicated every single time, have a look at his record on KosovoThey have a gargantuan, un-invadable land mass, tens of thousands of nuclear warheads, and a large chip on their shoulder.

[Kizzy]

Not sure what makes Russia so invincible really - their economy is the size of Italy, a lot of their infrastructure is crumbling, they no longer have as much control over Eastern Europe and they don't have many friends internationally



No he has not been vindicated every single time, have a look at his record on Kosovo

This record?...
https://www.parliament.uk/edm/2004-05/392

[MTVN]

They have a gargantuan, un-invadable land mass, tens of thousands of nuclear warheads, and a large chip on their shoulder.

But there is no prospect of a nuclear war or a land invasion in this day and age, they aren't the only ways to damage a country

[MTVN]

This record?...
https://www.parliament.uk/edm/2004-05/392

Yes thank you for highlighting the fact he denied genocide and tried to downplay the crimes committed in Kosovo

[arista]

Yes it is not a war
its the death of Ex Russians. (who have crossed the power)
Which was going on long before Putin.

[jet]

This is a completely insane piece of posturing and Ms May is flat out incompetent. I have little more to say on this than that. Absolutely ****ing barmy, I hope Wee Nic is on the phone to Moscow letting them know that we don't agree with May's actions.

It's not just May though, the majority of the house are in unified agreement including most of the Opposition. :shrug:

[jet]

you are incorrect re. the west not tackling russia - we won the cold war.

as for now, nobody is saying we should be starting another war!
but at the same time we cannot just ignore yet another incident like that
it's all about appropriate response.
some people in russia (putin etc) never gave up on russian empire and try to turn the clock back any way they can. they can't compete economically, so they do it by force (crimea, georgia, ukraine) or they resort to dirty tricks like trying to destabilise the west from the inside
we need to start reacting, not ignoring it coz it will make them even bolder

:clap1: I wonder what Putin really thinks about Corbyn, if he thinks of him at all. Putin despises weakness so he has to be dealt with in return with something of the ruthlessness which he displays himself.
You can't dither about and do nothing when an egomaniac thinks he can do want he wants. It is just handing him empowerment on a plate and saying 'We're scared of you' or 'You're not bad really, just misunderstood'. :inamood:

[Underscore]

This is a completely insane piece of posturing and Ms May is flat out incompetent. I have little more to say on this than that. Absolutely ****ing barmy, I hope Wee Nic is on the phone to Moscow letting them know that we don't agree with May's actions.

973913089828687872

:shrug:

[Brillopad]

She's trying to protect the money tree is all...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/jeremy-corbyn-vladimir-putin-theresa-may-sergei-skripal-magnitsky-laws-a8253786.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/corbyn-russia-sergei-skripal-money-laundering-magnitsky-act-understands-foreign-policy-a8253446.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5499271/Corbyn-told-MPs-country-Russia.html

He is in the minority bigtime.

[Kizzy]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5499271/Corbyn-told-MPs-country-Russia.html

He is in the minority bigtime.

So.... And Dacre is aiding his cash cow cover her tracks, no change there then :/

[AnnieK]

This is a serious question Kizzy with no malice or undercurrent meant at all but if Jeremy Corbyn had wholeheartedly supported this action against Russia would you have done too or would you have disagreed with these actions and still have been against it?

[Kizzy]

Yes thank you for highlighting the fact he denied genocide and tried to downplay the crimes committed in Kosovo

Haha nice try!

without any sanction of the United Nations Security Council;

the leader of a Spanish forensic team sent to Kosovo returned home, complaining angrily that he and his colleagues had become part of 'a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines, because we did not find one mass grave'

[arista]

I watched PMQ's in full
Corbyn did have a go at Putin.

Everyone appears to edit that out?

[MTVN]

Haha nice try!

without any sanction of the United Nations Security Council;

the leader of a Spanish forensic team sent to Kosovo returned home, complaining angrily that he and his colleagues had become part of 'a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines, because we did not find one mass grave'

All based on an article that was largely discredited

I won't say more about it because I'm aware I've gone off topic but anyone who thinks Corbyn has an unblemished record on foreign policy hasn't done enough research imo

[Kizzy]

This is a serious question Kizzy with no malice or undercurrent meant at all but if Jeremy Corbyn had wholeheartedly supported this action against Russia would you have done too or would you have disagreed with these actions and still have been against it?

I had no idea about Corbyns stance when I gave my opinion I think it was last Sunday after seeing Marina Litvenenko on the Marr show Annie.

[jet]

The Guardian view on Theresa May and Russia: tackling the troll state...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/mar/14/the-guardian-view-on-theresa-may-and-russia-tackling-the-troll-state

[Niamh.]

I'm on Putin's side, russia's greatest love machine


like he cares about what Theressa Mai has to say :fan:

Yeah he should be allowed murder whoever he wants because he's so sexy etc :umm2:

[Twosugars]

I'm on Putin's side, russia's greatest love machine


like he cares about what Theressa Mai has to say :fan:

Is that you, Donald?

[Nicky91]

Is that you, Donald?

:joker: :joker:

[Beso]

Berwick upon tweed is primed and ready.

[Alf]

One thing about this news story, it's taken the spotlight of Telford.

[jaxie]

With a joint statement released today by the UK, Germany, France and the US, this situation is hotting up considerably. It's very worrying indeed. More worrying is the callous disregard towards the public with the use of the nerve agent in the first place. This is literally an attack on the UK.

I see Corbyn the sympathiser is at it again.

[jaxie]

973913089828687872

:shrug:

Oh my, she said 'our' streets. :cheer2: Maybe she's coming round to the UK after all.

[jet]

With a joint statement released today by the UK, Germany, France and the US, this situation is hotting up considerably. It's very worrying indeed. More worrying is the callous disregard towards the public with the use of the nerve agent in the first place. This is literally an attack on the UK.

I see Corbyn the sympathiser is at it again.

He's a sympathiser of anything anti - British. :wavey:

[Kizzy]

At the time Corbyn made the statement there had been no word from Russia regarding culpability... That may have changed therefore his stance may have changed, but don't let that stop the pitchfork waving :/

[Beso]

At the time Corbyn made the statement there had been no word from Russia regarding culpability... That may have changed therefore his stance may have changed, but don't let that stop the pitchfork waving :/

Has it changed?

[Kizzy]

Has it changed?

I don't know... I don't know him personally. If he's made a statement you'll know when I do.

[Beso]

I don't know... I don't know him personally. If he's made a statement you'll know when I do.

Right well, who are you to tell people they are pitchfork waving when you have no bloody idea if his stance has changed..im sure its not or you would have heard by now.

[Kizzy]

Right well, who are you to tell people they are pitchfork waving when you have no bloody idea if his stance has changed..im sure its not or you would have heard by now.

As I said I don't know him personally... I wouldn't know before anyone else would I?

We also don't know whether there has been any assurance he is involved yet do we?
Just that may is all of a sudden loving her European neighbours :/

[Beso]

As I said I don't know him personally... I wouldn't know before anyone else would I?

We also don't know whether there has been any assurance he is involved yet do we?
Just that may is all of a sudden loving her European neighbours :/

She always has loved our nieghbours but she has to do the publics bidding though seeing as we voted out.So you are making a rather bitter sounding and mute point:conf:

[Kizzy]

She always has loved our nieghbours but she has to do the publics bidding though seeing as we voted out.So you are making a rather bitter sounding and mute point:conf:

Am I?... Oh well.

[Beso]

Well jezza has just come out..


It points to russia.

[Kizzy]

Is it better that that was a conclusion that was jumped to?... Not for me.

How unsavory is it that this seemingly has morphed into a corbyn v may popularity contest complete with #imwithmay hashtags :/

I would literally piss my pants laughing if it turns out that it's nothing to do with putin, you can get anything on the dark web it's prob just some nutter.

https://twitter.com/ainemichellel/status/974294210798026752/photo/1

[Beso]

https://mobile.twitter.com/withcorbyn?lang=en


Bit sad you find the whole thing one giant laugh mind.

[jet]

Sky news centre nationally representative sample poll of how the public feel May and Corbyn were handling the diplomatic situation with Russia.

Is May doing a good or bad job dealing with Russia.
Good 61%
Bad 29%

Is Corbyn doing a good or bad job dealing with Russia.
Good 18%
Bad 57%

Who would you prefer to deal with Russia.
May 69%
Corbyn 31%

[Kizzy]

Sky news centre nationally representative sample poll of how the public feel May and Corbyn were handling the diplomatic situation with Russia.

Is May doing a good or bad job dealing with Russia.
Good 61%
Bad 29%

Is Corbyn doing a good or bad job dealing with Russia.
Good 18%
Bad 57%

Who would you prefer to deal with Russia.
May 69%
Corbyn 31%

That proves my point... this isn't a popularity exercise.....it it?

[Kizzy]

https://mobile.twitter.com/withcorbyn?lang=en


Bit sad you find the whole thing one giant laugh mind.

I thought you liked a laugh... Suddenly you are serious parmy, where's funtime parmy gone? I liked him!

[Beso]

I thought you liked a laugh... Suddenly you are serious parmy, where's funtime parmy gone? I liked him!

Sorry, but i dont find a serious threat to world peace very amusing


Each ti thier own though, just a shame that you lack emphathy.

[Tom4784]

It's gross that people are turning this incident into a popularity contest.

[jet]

That proves my point... this isn't a popularity exercise.....it it?

What point?

[jet]

It's gross that people are turning this incident into a popularity contest.

How is comparing the reactions of the PM and the leader of the Opposition and what the public think of those reactions anything to do with popularity? It is to do with the threat to our - and other - countries and how people want the threat dealt with.
It is important for a PM to know they have the backing of the public in these matters, and this poll shows that she has.

[Twosugars]

Sorry, but i dont find a serious threat to world peace very amusing


Each ti thier own though, just a shame that you lack emphathy.

To be fair, it isn't a serious threat. It is an incident that needs responding to, but it's not likely to lead to war. Russia has been interfering for a long time now and need to be called out on it.

I need to remember this answer of yours and quote it back to you when you ridicule something serious. It's only a matter of time and politics, isn't it.

[AnnieK]

This situation shouldn't be a pissing contest, either in the polls or on here. Its a fairly serious situation that needs dealing with....not a tit for tat war of words.

[Tom4784]

How is comparing the reactions of the PM and the leader of the Opposition and what the public think of those reactions anything to do with popularity? It is to do with the threat to our - and other - countries and how people want the threat dealt with.
It is important for a PM to know they have the backing of the public in these matters, and this poll shows that she has.

Let's be realistic, this is just another issue being turned into a pro-Corbyn/Anti-Corbyn debate.

It's not a partisan issue yet Sky News is trying to turn it into one.

[Twosugars]

Jezza takes his bleeding time over some things. I wish he didn't. But I guess he got there in the end.
This is today's Guardian opinion piece by Corbyn

The Salisbury attack was appalling. But we must avoid a drift to conflict
Jeremy Corbyn

Britain needs to hold the perpetrators to account. Yet this is not a time for hasty judgments that could lead to a new cold war

Thu 15 Mar 2018 17.45 GMT Last modified on Thu 15 Mar 2018 18.02 GMT


There can be no one in Britain who is not outraged by the appalling attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury last week. The use of military nerve agents on the streets of Britain is barbaric and beyond reckless. This horrific event demands first of all the most thorough and painstaking criminal investigation, conducted by our police and security services. They have a right to expect full support in their work, just as the public should also be able to expect calm heads and a measured response from their political leaders. To rush way ahead of the evidence being gathered by the police, in a fevered parliamentary atmosphere, serves neither justice nor our national security.

Theresa May was right on Monday to identify two possibilities for the source of the attack in Salisbury, given that the nerve agent used has been identified as of original Russian manufacture. Either this was a crime authored by the Russian state; or that state has allowed these deadly toxins to slip out of the control it has an obligation to exercise. If the latter, a connection to Russian mafia-like groups that have been allowed to gain a toehold in Britain cannot be excluded.

On Wednesday the prime minister ruled out neither option. Which of these ultimately prove to be the case is a matter for police and security professionals to determine. Hopefully the next step will be the arrest of those responsible.

As I said in parliament, the Russian authorities must be held to account on the basis of the evidence, and our response must be both decisive and proportionate. But let us not manufacture a division over Russia where none exists. Labour is of course no supporter of the Putin regime, its conservative authoritarianism, abuse of human rights or political and economic corruption. And we pay tribute to Russia’s many campaigners for social justice and human rights, including for LGBT rights.

However, that does not mean we should resign ourselves to a “new cold war” of escalating arms spending, proxy conflicts across the globe and a McCarthyite intolerance of dissent. Instead, Britain needs to uphold its laws and its values without reservation. And those should be allied to a foreign policy that uses every opportunity to reduce tensions and conflict wherever possible.

I will not step back from demanding that Russian money be excluded from our political system
This government’s diplomacy is failing the country. Unqualified support for Donald Trump and rolling out the red carpet for a Saudi despot not only betrays our values, it makes us less safe.

And our capacity to deal with outrages from Russia is compromised by the tidal wave of ill-gotten cash that Russian oligarchs – both allied with and opposed to the Russian government – have laundered through London over the past two decades. We must stop servicing Russian crony capitalism in Britain, and the corrupt billionaires who use London to protect their wealth.

So I will not step back from demanding that Russian money be excluded from our political system. We will be holding the government’s feet to the fire to fully back Labour’s proposed Magnitsky-style sanctions against human rights abusers, along with a wider crackdown on money laundering and tax avoidance.

We agree with the government’s action in relation to Russian diplomats, but measures to tackle the oligarchs and their loot would have a far greater impact on Russia’s elite than limited tit-for-tat expulsions. We are willing to back further sanctions as and when the investigation into the Salisbury attack produces results.

But if we are to unite our allies behind action that needs taking, we must make full use of existing international treaties and procedures for dealing with chemical weapons. That means working through the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to reduce the threat from these horrific weapons, including if necessary an investigation by chemical weapons inspectors into the distribution of Soviet-era weapons.

There can and should be the basis for a common political response to this crime. But in my years in parliament I have seen clear thinking in an international crisis overwhelmed by emotion and hasty judgments too many times. Flawed intelligence and dodgy dossiers led to the calamity of the Iraq invasion. There was overwhelming bipartisan support for attacking Libya, but it proved to be wrong. A universal repugnance at the 9/11 attacks led to a war on Afghanistan that continues to this day, while terrorism has spread across the globe.

The continuing fallout from the collapse of the Soviet Union and the virtual collapse of the Russian state in the 1990s must be addressed through international law and diplomacy if we are to reverse the drift to conflict.

Right now, the perpetrators of the Salisbury attack must be identified and held to account. Only through firm multilateral action can we ensure such a shocking crime never happens again.

[Beso]

To be fair, it isn't a serious threat. It is an incident that needs responding to, but it's not likely to lead to war. Russia has been interfering for a long time now and need to be called out on it.

I need to remember this answer of yours and quote it back to you when you ridicule something serious. It's only a matter of time and politics, isn't it.

Have we forgot how the simple assasination of franz ferdinand started the worst war in history...


Its all about posturing, and there are some strong words comming from both sides as we speak..

So sorry, i dont agree eith your glibness today.

[jet]

Let's be realistic, this is just another issue being turned into a pro-Corbyn/Anti-Corbyn debate.

It's not a partisan issue yet Sky News is trying to turn it into one.

So you don't think the leader of the Oppositions stance is relevant in all this? That nobody should mention it to either criticise or otherwise?

[Twosugars]

Have we forgot how the simple assasination of franz ferdinand started the worst war in history...


Its all about posturing, and there are some strong words comming from both sides as we speak..

So sorry, i dont agree eith your glibness today.

True re. WW1 etc
And there will be some posturing. Let's wait for Russia's response, that should be "interesting". Putin uses this type of stuff mainly for domestic consumption (warning for enemies, cause for nationalists to vote for him, maybe even an election turnout boost). The narrative of Russia as a victim of the West plays very well there.

Since you turned into a statesman, someone else has to be glib :blush:

[Tom4784]

So you don't think the leader of the Oppositions stance is relevant in all this? That nobody should mention it to either criticise or otherwise?

Where did I say that? Can you point it out for me?

I'm just against the idea of turning this situation into a popularity contest which it's rapidly becoming.

[user104658]

This situation shouldn't be a pissing contest, either in the polls or on here. Its a fairly serious situation that needs dealing with....not a tit for tat war of words.Indeed. A potentially serious international incident is being turned into "Corbyn vs May", seemingly everywhere, that's very much the impression I get on here and from looking at the various tabloid front pages.

That says a lot about the times we're living in all on its own, in my opinion.

[bots]

Where did I say that? Can you point it out for me?

I'm just against the idea of turning this situation into a popularity contest which it's rapidly becoming.

It's not a popularity contest though its a competence comparison, which is quite a bit different. People are not saying they like May more than Corbyn, they are saying that May is dealing with the situation better than Corbyn (in the majority).

It's at times of trouble that we see what people are made of and which we prefer to be representing us.

[jet]

Indeed. A potentially serious international incident is being turned into "Corbyn vs May", seemingly everywhere, that's very much the impression I get on here and from looking at the various tabloid front pages.

That says a lot about the times we're living in all on its own, in my opinion.

You've changed - very recently you were saying it was a relatively minor incident and how the gov. were over - reacting big time (or words to that effect.)

[Beso]

It's not a popularity contest though its a competence comparison, which is quite a bit different. People are not saying they like May more than Corbyn, they are saying that May is dealing with the situation better than Corbyn (in the majority).

It's at times of trouble that we see what people are made of and which we prefer to be representing us.


Last paragraph deserves applause.

[jet]

It's not a popularity contest though its a competence comparison, which is quite a bit different. People are not saying they like May more than Corbyn, they are saying that May is dealing with the situation better than Corbyn (in the majority).

It's at times of trouble that we see what people are made of and which we prefer to be representing us.

Well said!

[Tom4784]

It's not a popularity contest though its a competence comparison, which is quite a bit different. People are not saying they like May more than Corbyn, they are saying that May is dealing with the situation better than Corbyn (in the majority).

It's at times of trouble that we see what people are made of and which we prefer to be representing us.

I don't think one incident is proof of competency on either side. May and her government are weak and wishy washy and doing her best impression of Churchill won't change that.

She's handled this situation well so far but I don't think that makes her the leader we need going forward, it doesn't change her myriad of mistakes.

It's one incident and not one that will define either party going forward.

[Tom4784]

I also disagree with the last sentence.

Most people will rise to the challenge in times of crisis but you see a person for who they truly are in the small moments when they aren't forced to act in a certain way.

[Twosugars]

The language in this conflict is getting less and less diplomatic.

Williamson, defence secretary told Russia to shut up and go away.
Russian defence ministry replied: "The extreme level of the intellectual impotence of the head of the British Ministry of Defence Gavin Williamson was clearly demonstrated today by his rhetoric - of a vulgar old harpy".

Now, I don't know about vulgar harpy, but Williamson is not old.

Also, Russian media is floating a theory that the Skripals were poisoned by the Brits in order to pick a fight with Russia and turn attention away from Brexit.

[Kizzy]

Sorry, but i dont find a serious threat to world peace very amusing


Each ti thier own though, just a shame that you lack emphathy.

It's a shame you lack objectivity.

[Kizzy]

Is it better that that was a conclusion that was jumped to?... Not for me.

How unsavory is it that this seemingly has morphed into a corbyn v may popularity contest complete with #imwithmay hashtags :/

I would literally piss my pants laughing if it turns out that it's nothing to do with putin, you can get anything on the dark web it's prob just some nutter.

https://twitter.com/ainemichellel/status/974294210798026752/photo/1

What point?

That one.

[Kizzy]

Jezza takes his bleeding time over some things. I wish he didn't. But I guess he got there in the end.
This is today's Guardian opinion piece by Corbyn

The Salisbury attack was appalling. But we must avoid a drift to conflict
Jeremy Corbyn

Britain needs to hold the perpetrators to account. Yet this is not a time for hasty judgments that could lead to a new cold war

Thu 15 Mar 2018 17.45 GMT Last modified on Thu 15 Mar 2018 18.02 GMT


There can be no one in Britain who is not outraged by the appalling attack on Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia in Salisbury last week. The use of military nerve agents on the streets of Britain is barbaric and beyond reckless. This horrific event demands first of all the most thorough and painstaking criminal investigation, conducted by our police and security services. They have a right to expect full support in their work, just as the public should also be able to expect calm heads and a measured response from their political leaders. To rush way ahead of the evidence being gathered by the police, in a fevered parliamentary atmosphere, serves neither justice nor our national security.

Theresa May was right on Monday to identify two possibilities for the source of the attack in Salisbury, given that the nerve agent used has been identified as of original Russian manufacture. Either this was a crime authored by the Russian state; or that state has allowed these deadly toxins to slip out of the control it has an obligation to exercise. If the latter, a connection to Russian mafia-like groups that have been allowed to gain a toehold in Britain cannot be excluded.

On Wednesday the prime minister ruled out neither option. Which of these ultimately prove to be the case is a matter for police and security professionals to determine. Hopefully the next step will be the arrest of those responsible.

As I said in parliament, the Russian authorities must be held to account on the basis of the evidence, and our response must be both decisive and proportionate. But let us not manufacture a division over Russia where none exists. Labour is of course no supporter of the Putin regime, its conservative authoritarianism, abuse of human rights or political and economic corruption. And we pay tribute to Russia’s many campaigners for social justice and human rights, including for LGBT rights.

However, that does not mean we should resign ourselves to a “new cold war” of escalating arms spending, proxy conflicts across the globe and a McCarthyite intolerance of dissent. Instead, Britain needs to uphold its laws and its values without reservation. And those should be allied to a foreign policy that uses every opportunity to reduce tensions and conflict wherever possible.

I will not step back from demanding that Russian money be excluded from our political system
This government’s diplomacy is failing the country. Unqualified support for Donald Trump and rolling out the red carpet for a Saudi despot not only betrays our values, it makes us less safe.

And our capacity to deal with outrages from Russia is compromised by the tidal wave of ill-gotten cash that Russian oligarchs – both allied with and opposed to the Russian government – have laundered through London over the past two decades. We must stop servicing Russian crony capitalism in Britain, and the corrupt billionaires who use London to protect their wealth.

So I will not step back from demanding that Russian money be excluded from our political system. We will be holding the government’s feet to the fire to fully back Labour’s proposed Magnitsky-style sanctions against human rights abusers, along with a wider crackdown on money laundering and tax avoidance.

We agree with the government’s action in relation to Russian diplomats, but measures to tackle the oligarchs and their loot would have a far greater impact on Russia’s elite than limited tit-for-tat expulsions. We are willing to back further sanctions as and when the investigation into the Salisbury attack produces results.

But if we are to unite our allies behind action that needs taking, we must make full use of existing international treaties and procedures for dealing with chemical weapons. That means working through the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons to reduce the threat from these horrific weapons, including if necessary an investigation by chemical weapons inspectors into the distribution of Soviet-era weapons.

There can and should be the basis for a common political response to this crime. But in my years in parliament I have seen clear thinking in an international crisis overwhelmed by emotion and hasty judgments too many times. Flawed intelligence and dodgy dossiers led to the calamity of the Iraq invasion. There was overwhelming bipartisan support for attacking Libya, but it proved to be wrong. A universal repugnance at the 9/11 attacks led to a war on Afghanistan that continues to this day, while terrorism has spread across the globe.

The continuing fallout from the collapse of the Soviet Union and the virtual collapse of the Russian state in the 1990s must be addressed through international law and diplomacy if we are to reverse the drift to conflict.

Right now, the perpetrators of the Salisbury attack must be identified and held to account. Only through firm multilateral action can we ensure such a shocking crime never happens again.

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

This is what I want from a statesman, not reactionary knee jerks or insults like Gavin Williamsons 'Go away and shut up'.... :/

[Kizzy]

The language in this conflict is getting less and less diplomatic.

Williamson, defence secretary told Russia to shut up and go away.
Russian defence ministry replied: "The extreme level of the intellectual impotence of the head of the British Ministry of Defence Gavin Williamson was clearly demonstrated today by his rhetoric - of a vulgar old harpy".

Now, I don't know about vulgar harpy, but Williamson is not old.

Also, Russian media is floating a theory that the Skripals were poisoned by the Brits in order to pick a fight with Russia and turn attention away from Brexit.

Possible, I was thinking that this may revival smacked of thatcher during the Falklands.

[Kazanne]

It's not a popularity contest though its a competence comparison, which is quite a bit different. People are not saying they like May more than Corbyn, they are saying that May is dealing with the situation better than Corbyn (in the majority).

It's at times of trouble that we see what people are made of and which we prefer to be representing us.

:clap1::clap1:

[Nicky91]

not all russians are evil, just Putin and his regime ;)


he is not suited for presidency, but then again neither is Trump so Russia & America are now similar to each other

[Beso]

It's a shame you lack objectivity.

Why, cause i firmly support may in this?

Suddenly anyone supporting may in this lacks objectivity?

Wow, go back to your life hating, go back to laughing about a poisoning, go back to laughing about the possibility of a cold war.

Judge yourself before others, some people need to look deep inside themselves..


Lack objectivity my arse.

[Nicky91]

Putin is basically the russian Trump


both unstable world leaders

[DemolitionRed]

We are already in a Cold War. It was re-launched in 2014 over the Ukraine. This attempted assassination incident has just stepped things up a notch. Russia has been receiving sanctions from the West for the last few years. Why else would Putin be telling the Russian people that they are under attack from the West?

[DemolitionRed]

not all russians are evil, just Putin and his regime ;)


he is not suited for presidency, but then again neither is Trump so Russia & America are now similar to each other

Trump and Putin aren't a good mix :(

[jaxie]

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/15/corbyn-defies-critics-calls-for-calm-over-russia-nerve-agent-attack

After a smidge of condemnation yesterday it looks like Jeremy is sneaking back to his original stance.

I wonder if this incident and his behaviour towards it will be where he shoots himself on the foot.

[DemolitionRed]

The Guardian: Corbyn backed May’s decision to expel 23 diplomats, but suggested a financial crackdown on Russian oligarchs would be more effective.

“We agree with the government’s action in relation to Russian diplomats, but measures to tackle the oligarchs and their loot would have a far greater impact on Russia’s elite than limited tit-for-tat expulsions,” he said.

The shadow chancellor, John McDonnell, also pledged to “hammer” money-laundering, saying that would be a more effective weapon against Vladimir Putin’s regime than expelling diplomats.

He's basically saying what many said from day one of this nightmare. It may well of been the Russian government... an order from the embassy. It likely was but it could also of been carried out by any one of the oligarchs who reside here and therefore, until the investigation reaches a conclusion, I don't think anyone should be making snap decisions.

Cold War is only called 'cold' because its not physical but a Cold War has the potential to become a 'Hot War'.

[Vicky.]

However, that does not mean we should resign ourselves to a “new cold war” of escalating arms spending, proxy conflicts across the globe and a McCarthyite intolerance of dissent. Instead, Britain needs to uphold its laws and its values without reservation. And those should be allied to a foreign policy that uses every opportunity to reduce tensions and conflict wherever possible.


LOL

Corbyn saying this with all the **** thats happening in the Labour party, with people being suspended for thought crimes is ****ing hilarious tbh. :D

[Denver]

Corbyn would defend Putin.

Anyway Russia wouldn't be able to cope with starting a war because they have pissed off every single country they have no allies

[Nicky91]

Corbyn would defend Putin.

Anyway Russia wouldn't be able to cope with starting a war because they have pissed off every single country they have no allies

lol, i would seriously believe that either


thank god for corbyn not having the power then in UK


Russia has an ally in Trump, Putin's little bitch :fan:

[Denver]

lol, i would seriously believe that either


thank god for corbyn not having the power then in UK


Russia has an ally in Trump, Putin's little bitch :fan:

America has already said they are on Britains side

[DemolitionRed]

Corbyn would defend Putin.
He's already condemned Putin so why would he defend him?


Anyway Russia wouldn't be able to cope with starting a war because they have pissed off every single country they have no allies

Apart from China who are more than capable of carrying out a wide scale war. And North Korea would join them.

[Denver]

He's already condemned Putin so why would he defend him?



Apart from China who are more than capable of carrying out a wide scale war. And North Korea would join them.

Russia lost a lot of freinds in China over North Korea

[Denver]

And North Korea isn't much of a threat

[Nicky91]

America has already said they are on Britains side

me SHOOK D:

[Denver]

Also don't the UK and China have a strong relationship?

[user104658]

You've changed - very recently you were saying it was a relatively minor incident and how the gov. were over - reacting big time (or words to that effect.)Yes. Over-reacting and risking a major international incident by poking and prodding at cold war tensions needlessly. These are not contradictory statements.

However at the moment I'm just more bewildered about the fact that this has been (here, and across the media) turned into yet another UK domestic politics playground spat. Just ridiculous :facepalm:. Great Britain, ladies and gentlemen :clap1:.

[AnnieK]

Yes. Over-reacting and risking a major international incident by poking and prodding at cold war tensions needlessly. These are not contradictory statements.

However at the moment I'm just more bewildered about the fact that this has been (here, and across the media) turned into yet another UK domestic politics playground spat. Just ridiculous :facepalm:. Great Britain, ladies and gentlemen :clap1:.

Indeed, it is madness at the moment.

[Twosugars]

TS has a point. Turning this into party politics is not helpful.
UK and the West need to be consistent and show Russia they have had enough of the interference.
Williamson's comment was childish though, but then again Russian Embassy's tweets have been pure trolling.

[Nicky91]

i side with the UK now

[Tom4784]

And North Korea isn't much of a threat

The threat of NK comes not from the country itself but the fact that a conflict with NK could easily spin into another World War.

[jet]

Glushkov's death now a murder enquiry.


https://news.sky.com/story/british-police-launch-murder-probe-into-death-of-russian-nikolai-glushkov-in-london-11292406

[bots]

Yes. Over-reacting and risking a major international incident by poking and prodding at cold war tensions needlessly. These are not contradictory statements.

However at the moment I'm just more bewildered about the fact that this has been (here, and across the media) turned into yet another UK domestic politics playground spat. Just ridiculous :facepalm:. Great Britain, ladies and gentlemen :clap1:.

Corbyn is 100% to blame for that. If he had supported the government, which is the norm on occasions like this, no matter who is in power, there would be no issue. Corbyn decided to be an idiot and try and point score.

[arista]

Glushkov's death now a murder enquiry.


https://news.sky.com/story/british-police-launch-murder-probe-into-death-of-russian-nikolai-glushkov-in-london-11292406


The Hit Man had Gloves on.
I assume.
No cameras, No Security Film?

Case will get closed

[DemolitionRed]

Glushkov's death now a murder enquiry.


https://news.sky.com/story/british-police-launch-murder-probe-into-death-of-russian-nikolai-glushkov-in-london-11292406

I'm not surprised but so far it doesn't have a connection with Sergei Skripal.

[arista]

Putin is basically the russian Trump


both unstable world leaders


For Sure

[jet]

I'm not surprised but so far it doesn't have a connection with Sergei Skripal.

It seems not. They are saying Russia asked for him to be extradited in 2015 but Britain refused.

[jet]

Corbyn is 100% to blame for that. If he had supported the government, which is the norm on occasions like this, no matter who is in power, there would be no issue. Corbyn decided to be an idiot and try and point score.

You hit the nail on the head yet again. :clap2:

[DemolitionRed]

Good god, we have just moved 2 notches further into the Cold War and we are still point scoring about Corbyn!

[jaxie]

Corbyn is 100% to blame for that. If he had supported the government, which is the norm on occasions like this, no matter who is in power, there would be no issue. Corbyn decided to be an idiot and try and point score.

This exactly. :clap1:

[jet]

Good god, we have just moved 2 notches further into the Cold War and we are still point scoring about Corbyn!

His point scoring stance and the reaction to it from the public and his own party are very topical at the moment. Are you suggesting we should all pull together at a time like this - just like Corbyn did? :think:

[Twosugars]

Glushkov was connected to Berezovsky, who died in mysterious circumstances.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/27/boris-berezovsky-inquest-open-verdict-death

[Twosugars]

i side with the UK now

:joker:
Good decision, Donald.
You can get a golden shower here too, y'know.

[user104658]

Good god, we have just moved 2 notches further into the Cold War and we are still point scoring about Corbyn!Yes but the entire country is the same, apparently. Increasing tensions with Russia and every tabloid front page is plastered with headlines about Corbyn... The leader of the UK opposition. Its beyond bizarre but it quite aptly sums up how petty, insular and self-important the UK is becoming.

[Tom4784]

Yes but the entire country is the same, apparently. Increasing tensions with Russia and every tabloid front page is plastered with headlines about Corbyn... The leader of the UK opposition. Its beyond bizarre but it quite aptly sums up how petty, insular and self-important the UK is becoming.

Better to delude ourselves with hating Corbyn then to focus on the fact we're sliding right into a potential world War 3 situation, I guess. :shrug:

[Northern Monkey]

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

[user104658]

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.That's May all over though NM... And frankly, most of our current politicians - immediately do what you think will make you most popular with the voting public, no matter what that is, and then worry about the specifics and potential repercussions later. Because UK politics (and media) has descended entirely into petty in fighting and childish squabbling.

[Northern Monkey]

That's May all over though NM... And frankly, most of our current politicians - immediately do what you think will make you most popular with the voting public, no matter what that is, and then worry about the specifics and potential repercussions later. Because UK politics (and media) has descended entirely into petty in fighting and childish squabbling.

Yep it’s a joke but an unfunny one when **** gets this serious.
I actually heard someone on a politics show the other day saying how this might be good for May’s image.Like that’s the main thing at stake here :facepalm:

[DemolitionRed]

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

Good points, especially the one in bold.

[MTVN]

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

I see your point but the trouble is that this fits into a long pattern of Russian behaviour which has been going on for years. I think everyone agrees now that they were behind Litvinienko but there's also been numerous suspicious deaths that they were probably responsible for both in this country and abroad. But every time it happens they just react with sarcasm and sneer at any suggestion they were involved. A lot of their reaction is pure trolling. It's not just assassinations either, look at stuff like the passenger plane that was shot down over Ukraine where everything pointed to it having been shot by the Russian backed rebels on the ground but Russia kept on denying everything and put forward a load of dodgy evidence that a Ukrainian jet had shot it down instead. And they've been caught trying to pass off video game footage as 'evidence' in the past as well

Basically they just can't be trusted to take any incident like this seriously so it's pointless to indulge any of their excuses

[Northern Monkey]

I see your point but the trouble is that this fits into a long pattern of Russian behaviour which has been going on for years. I think everyone agrees now that they were behind Litvinienko but there's also been numerous suspicious deaths that they were probably responsible for both in this country and abroad. But every time it happens they just react with sarcasm and sneer at any suggestion they were involved. A lot of their reaction is pure trolling. It's not just assassinations either, look at stuff like the passenger plane that was shot down over Ukraine where everything pointed to it having been shot by the Russian backed rebels on the ground but Russia kept on denying everything and put forward a load of dodgy evidence that a Ukrainian jet had shot it down instead. And they've been caught trying to pass off video game footage as 'evidence' in the past as well

Basically they just can't be trusted to take any incident like this seriously so it's pointless to indulge any of their excuses
Oh i know.They have a track record for this stuff.But if there’s any possibility that it wasn’t the Russian government this time and someone trying to create a diplomatic crisis(And even the PM’s speech didn’t say they know 100%) then shouldn’t we maybe look into it a little deeper before jumping the gun.Atleast wait for the investigation to get abit further.

[Kizzy]

omyG6ZSbil0

[waterhog]

I feel better after reading all these comments. its not only me that has to look over shoulder with putin.

[kirklancaster]

Corbyn is 100% to blame for that. If he had supported the government, which is the norm on occasions like this, no matter who is in power, there would be no issue. Corbyn decided to be an idiot and try and point score.

:clap1: As others have said already - you have 'Hit The Nail Squarely On The Head'.

[kirklancaster]

Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.


:joker:

[bots]

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

Military grade nerve agents are not something that can be cobbled together from items found down the local supermarket. There have been incredibly tight controls on these things for decades. They are manufactured in completely isolated laboratories. So, given this particular weapons signature, it could only have come from Russia. So the PM was correct. The Russian state were ultimately responsible for its security. If it was deployed by them, they are to blame, if they let someone else deploy it, they are to blame. If it was stolen from their facility, they are to blame for allowing it to be stolen and need to be forthcoming about who stole it and in what quantity. As the Russian state did not respond with any reasonable explanation, the only conclusion that can be drawn was that it was a state sponsored attack.

As to things escalating out of control. We can't have any events like this repeating. What happens if the next time it is deployed, its in a cinema, the underground, an enclosed shopping center?

The diplomats that are being kicked out are those without specific responsibility, which means they are spies who either carried out the attempted murder of the father and daughter or coordinated it. It seems perfectly reasonable to eject anyone who is not here performing a specific diplomatic role, so on that basis, the PM is perfectly justified in her actions.

[Brillopad]

Military grade nerve agents are not something that can be cobbled together from items found down the local supermarket. There have been incredibly tight controls on these things for decades. They are manufactured in completely isolated laboratories. So, given this particular weapons signature, it could only have come from Russia. So the PM was correct. The Russian state were ultimately responsible for its security. If it was deployed by them, they are to blame, if they let someone else deploy it, they are to blame. If it was stolen from their facility, they are to blame for allowing it to be stolen and need to be forthcoming about who stole it and in what quantity. As the Russian state did not respond with any reasonable explanation, the only conclusion that can be drawn was that it was a state sponsored attack.

As to things escalating out of control. We can't have any events like this repeating. What happens if the next time it is deployed, its in a cinema, the underground, an enclosed shopping center?

The diplomats that are being kicked out are those without specific responsibility, which means they are spies who either carried out the attempted murder of the father and daughter or coordinated it. It seems perfectly reasonable to eject anyone who is not here performing a specific diplomatic role, so on that basis, the PM is perfectly justified in her actions.

Good points. Whichever way you look at it the Russian government have accountability. Besides they have form - they can’t cry wolf now. But fans of Corbyn are so desperate to justify his inappropriate comments they will apparently believe anything.

[DemolitionRed]

omyG6ZSbil0

Interesting to listen to an intelligent debate from a man who's got no political leaning.

Thanks for that Kizzy.

[Underscore]

she should go further and confiscate russian oligarch property in london

[DemolitionRed]

she should go further and confiscate russian oligarch property in london

Corbyn has been saying that for a long time.

[DemolitionRed]

James O'Brien asks a very pertinent question:

"Would you be prepared to send your sons to war over this?

[Brillopad]

Corbyn has been saying that for a long time.

He has been full of bizarre ideas for a long time. Tell us something we don’t know!

[Brillopad]

James O'Brien asks a very pertinent question:

"Would you be prepared to send your sons to war over this?

And daughters - they are equal in the forces now are they not! :shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

He has been full of bizarre ideas for a long time. Tell us something we don’t know!

So you think confiscating Russian oligarch property in London is a bizarre idea? I mean Mays spoken about it but only because she was under pressure from her inner government and the Labour Party.

All this gaslighting at Corbyn is getting boring.

[DemolitionRed]

And daughters - they are equal in the forces now are they not! :shrug:

Someone needs to remain and hold up the home front.

[James]

Who has said we are going to war? The response has been moderate if anything.

[Brillopad]

Someone needs to remain and hold up the home front.

But we are still associating women with the ‘Home ‘ are we. :shrug:

Women have equal status in the forces and otherwise so the women won’t just be kept safe at home. Neither would women in the forces want that as they are as courageous as their male counterparts. Or don’t you agree?

[AnnieK]

James O'Brien asks a very pertinent question:

"Would you be prepared to send your sons to war over this?

Surely thats emotional blackmail though?

You could just as easily ask do you want to risk your children being affected by another hit on the streets of the UK by not responding?

No one wants armed conflict, no one has suggested it yet as I understand but we have a military to be prepared to protect citizens.

If using military grade nerve agents on our soil on a busy street is not a reason to lock down and protect citizens then what is? (Disclaimer obviously if it can be proven to have been a government ordered hit)

[Brillopad]

So you think confiscating Russian oligarch property in London is a bizarre idea? I mean Mays spoken about it but only because she was under pressure from her inner government and the Labour Party.

All this gaslighting at Corbyn is getting boring.

As are your constant excuses for him!

I don’t think anyone has the right to confiscate private property from anyone other than if it was stolen or gained as the result of criminal activity.

You can’t just steal from people because they are rich. If they choose to leave their properties empty that is their business as it is their property. Or is the PC brigade going to dictate exactly what people can do with their property now to keep it.

[DemolitionRed]

This is heating up and it is worrying.
I don’t know if i have confidence in either Labour or the Tories on this.
Corbyn did try and score points the other day by going on about diplomat cuts after it’d just happened which was not the time and tbh i don’t think he’s strong enough to run a bath nevermind a country and deal with people such as Putin.
However i do wonder if May could use abit of his caution.
We definitely do need a leader who has the balls to stand up and be strong in times like these and to give us confidence but we don’t want to rush headlong into possibly irreversible decisions either.
With how delicate this situation is i’m thinking she was maybe abit hasty.When we’re hearing things like it was “more than likely” the Russian state.Is that good enough really?Should’nt we be sure before expelling 23 diplomats and taking other harsh measures against a military superpower?
She gave Russia 24 hours to give an explanation before she acted.She knew she wouldn’t get one because Russia doesn’t respond to ultimatums.
What if this wasn’t a government sanctioned hit?What if this Novichok was leaked to somebody by someone lower down than Putin who wanted to stir up a diplomatic crisis before his election?
It may not be likely but possible.Even Theresa May said they could have “lost control” of it.
Should we as a country be acting so strongly on “more than likelies”?
Maybe it would’ve been wise to let the investigation go on abit longer for more certainty.
Gavin Williamson’s speech was nothing more than embarrassing.He didn’t sound tough,diplomatic or intelligent.I mean “shut up and go away”.Come on.

It wasn't a speech from Gavin Williams, it was his and others thoughts on what's just happened. Why was it embarrassing? because he understood Corbyn (a man he can't stand) wanted to know why plan B had been scrapped? You may not see him as intelligent but you're wrong, he's a brilliant critical thinker and he's not afraid to put that critical thinking out to an audience. That debate was a lot more intelligent than most debates we ever see on here. I suggest it was boring and embarrassing because you don't agree with him.

As for nerve agents (Novichok) falling into someone else's hands. Its entirely possible. We know that US and other Nato intelligence services visited Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and that they visited the factory in Uzbekistan where this nerve agent was made. It could of fallen into a number of hands and not only the Russians.

[Brillopad]

As for nerve agents (Novichok) falling into someone else's hands. Its entirely possible. We know that US and other Nato intelligence services visited Russia after the fall of the Soviet Union and that they visited the factory in Uzbekistan where this nerve agent was made. It could of fallen into a number of hands and not only the Russians.

So now you are trying to blame the West!!! You are incredible. You appear to have a distinct dislike of the West - it is ever present in just about everything you say on the subject.

[DemolitionRed]

Surely thats emotional blackmail though?

You could just as easily ask do you want to risk your children being affected by another hit on the streets of the UK by not responding?

No one wants armed conflict, no one has suggested it yet as I understand but we have a military to be prepared to protect citizens.

If using military grade nerve agents on our soil on a busy street is not a reason to lock down and protect citizens then what is? (Disclaimer obviously if it can be proven to have been a government ordered hit)

Why emotional blackmail? It could become a reality. If we ever do go to war with Russia we will need a lot more than are disbanded armed services.
Why is it emotional blackmail when May has just walked us back into the bowels of a Cold War? This isn't some random country in the Middle East, its Russia, a country that's could quickly wipe us out.

Why wasn't plan B implemented? France, Italy and the Labour government are asking that same question.

I'm not saying something didn't need doing... clearly it did, but we've done this on a strong hunch and nothing more.

[arista]

Who has said we are going to war? The response has been moderate if anything.


Very True
so far its tit for tat

https://news.sky.com/story/british-ambassador-summoned-to-russian-ministry-11293252
23 British diplomats now expelled.

[DemolitionRed]

As are your constant excuses for him!

I don’t think anyone has the right to confiscate private property from anyone other than if it was stolen or gained as the result of criminal activity.

You can’t just steal from people because they are rich. If they choose to leave their properties empty that is their business as it is their property. Or is the PC brigade going to dictate exactly what people can do with their property now to keep it.

Sorry, I'm not even going to get into this topic with someone like you because from what you just said, you clearly don't have any understanding about the problems with laundered Russian money on our shores.

[DemolitionRed]

But we are still associating women with the ‘Home ‘ are we. :shrug:

Women have equal status in the forces and otherwise so the women won’t just be kept safe at home. Neither would women in the forces want that as they are as courageous as their male counterparts. Or don’t you agree?

So you think the women in WW2 sat at home waiting for their husbands?!?!
The reason it became acceptable for women to go out and work after WW2 is because during WW2 they were expected to be part of the war effort. The built guns, made bullets, nursed the sick and dying and a whole lot more and for the first time in history, women got a taste for work and refused to go back to being the 'woman at home'.

Of course women are in the army and would partake and of course women would enlist but under the threat of war on our soil, its the men would be enlisted for front line service.

I know people will say we will all just be evaporated but that wasn't true in the Middle East. There are plenty more wars to be had around the world before we eventually blow ourselves up.

[Brillopad]

Sorry, I'm not even going to get into this topic with someone like you because from what you just said, you clearly don't have any understanding about the problems with laundered Russian money on our shores.

You patronising yet again - I forgot you know everything about everything.

Even when criminal activity is suspected - you still need proof positive before you start stealing the property of others.

[Brillopad]

So you think the women in WW2 sat at home waiting for their husbands?!?!
The reason it became acceptable for women to go out and work after WW2 is because during WW2 they were expected to be part of the war effort. The built guns, made bullets, nursed the sick and dying and a whole lot more and for the first time in history, women got a taste for work and refused to go back to being the 'woman at home'.

Of course women are in the army and would partake and of course women would enlist but under the threat of war on our soil, its the men would be enlisted for front line service.

I know people will say we will all just be evaporated but that wasn't true in the Middle East. There are plenty more wars to be had around the world before we eventually blow ourselves up.

That will eventually change like everything else. There is no reason that women of a certain age who do not have children, or LGBTs come to that, can’t be enlisted in times of war. Some may not like the idea of that but that is part and parcel of equality. No pick and mix when it suits.

I am fully aware of what women did and didn’t do in WW2 thank you - mainly what they were allowed to do. Times have changed and many women would expect to be much more involved. Anything else would be sexism.

[DemolitionRed]

Even when criminal activity is suspected - you still need proof positive before you start stealing the property of others.
[QUOTE]

Nobody said otherwise. This was spoken about about more depth on a recent topic.

[DemolitionRed]

Even when criminal activity is suspected - you still need proof positive before you start stealing the property of others.

So on that note, should we be investigating every avenue of who poisoned those Russians? You know... plan B

[jaxie]

I was gratified to see that NATO has backed us 100%. I wonder whether this will give May the impetus to invoke NATO's Article 5 on Collective Defence which states "‘the Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all’. It's only ever been used once before, by the USA after 9/11

Both the US and French changed their tune pretty fast from their initial reactions to the suggestion it was Russia, I did wonder if she'd mentioned Article 5 on the phone.

[Brillopad]

So on that note, should we be investigating every avenue of who poisoned those Russians? You know... plan B

Well if you are quite happy to appear gullible and quite content to let the man take the p***. We all know it was hiim - he has form - no use crying wolf now.

And if in the by some tiny, minute chance he isn’t he is still accountable for letting people get their hands on it in the first place. But if you want to believe it go ahead.

[Brillopad]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-43422184/poisoned-ex-spy-why-does-uk-think-it-was-russia

A fair and reasoned assessment which is why so many have come out in support of May on this.

[DemolitionRed]

So now we have 23 British diplomats expelled from Russia with further threats from May and Putin.

The Chemical Weapons Act page 9, section 2, clearly states that evidence (as proof) must be available, so how is May refusing the Russian embassy requests to collect evidence?

[bots]

So now we have 23 British diplomats expelled from Russia with further threats from May and Putin.

The Chemical Weapons Act page 9, section 2, clearly states that evidence (as proof) must be available, so how is May refusing the Russian embassy requests to collect evidence?

Genuine question here DR, why are you so keen to see things from a Russian perspective, when its UK citizens that have been attacked?

I lived and worked in Russia, have many good Russian friends, but I still side with the UK in the face of an outrageous attack

[DemolitionRed]

Genuine question here DR, why are you so keen to see things from a Russian perspective, when its UK citizens that have been attacked?

I lived and worked in Russia, have many good Russian friends, but I still side with the UK in the face of an outrageous attack

Good question

1) I want to see things from all sides and not be blinded by the one sided hysteria.

2) I'm not going to roll over and believe everything that's said. I can't because different papers are saying different things. https://edition.cnn.com/2018/03/13/world/novichok-former-soviet-chemist/index.html Some papers are asking why there weren't further investigations and asking why Russia is being refused evidence whilst others are riding on the back of patriotism and saying May was absolutely right.

3) As I'm not the only person asking these questions (there's a lot of us) we don't see it as siding with Britain or Russia, we see it as an open and frank discussion with all questions answered.

[Kizzy]

Surely thats emotional blackmail though?

You could just as easily ask do you want to risk your children being affected by another hit on the streets of the UK by not responding?

No one wants armed conflict, no one has suggested it yet as I understand but we have a military to be prepared to protect citizens.

If using military grade nerve agents on our soil on a busy street is not a reason to lock down and protect citizens then what is? (Disclaimer obviously if it can be proven to have been a government ordered hit)

That's the point... It hasn't been proven, you can't condemn one man for saying what he did, even if every one else is throwing their hands up in outrage because at the minute he has every right to make that point as there is no evidence to the contrary.

[Brillopad]

That's the point... It hasn't been proven, you can't condemn one man for saying what he did, even if every one else is throwing their hands up in outrage because at the minute he has every right to make that point as there is no evidence to the contrary.

Weren’t you accusing Russia of interfering in the American elections because you didn’t support Trump?

[AnnieK]

That's the point... It hasn't been proven, you can't condemn one man for saying what he did, even if every one else is throwing their hands up in outrage because at the minute he has every right to make that point as there is no evidence to the contrary.

I didn't condemn him, I queried his use of language? As none of us or the media are privy to the intelligence gathered and no military action has been threatened to my knowledge I felt it was an inflammatory thing to say to the public. Not one of us outside of the government has a say in this and trying to whip up opposition by pulling on people's heartstrings seems wrong to me.....although the fear mongering from some tabloids also deserves derision too.

This whole situation is a mess, there are far too many what ifs, buts and maybes

[Tom4784]

The difference being the election business is and has been investigated and that situation isn't likely to be escalated further until the investigation is complete. I do think that Russia is behind this but I won't slate anyone for wanting to be cautious and verify the facts before we throw ourselves into a potential war situation.

I don't think people should surrender their views to 'get in line' with everyone else.

[Brillopad]

You have a one-track mind Brillo. This issue is not about May or Corbyn and the obsession (not just from you, from many people, including the tabloid media) with trying to make it about May/Corbyn/Tories/Labour politics is bizarre.

I think political leanings have a lot to do with it for some. Otherwise I don’t think they would give two hoots about Putin and whether he did it or not, especially as there is more than enough reason to believe he did.

I have my own opinion on who exactly has a one-track mind!

[Kizzy]

Weren’t you accusing Russia of interfering in the American elections because you didn’t support Trump?

There has been media speculation around several elections and referendums that may have been influenced by AI and bots, I don't know where they originated.

[kirklancaster]

I see your point but the trouble is that this fits into a long pattern of Russian behaviour which has been going on for years. I think everyone agrees now that they were behind Litvinienko but there's also been numerous suspicious deaths that they were probably responsible for both in this country and abroad. But every time it happens they just react with sarcasm and sneer at any suggestion they were involved. A lot of their reaction is pure trolling. It's not just assassinations either, look at stuff like the passenger plane that was shot down over Ukraine where everything pointed to it having been shot by the Russian backed rebels on the ground but Russia kept on denying everything and put forward a load of dodgy evidence that a Ukrainian jet had shot it down instead. And they've been caught trying to pass off video game footage as 'evidence' in the past as well

Basically they just can't be trusted to take any incident like this seriously so it's pointless to indulge any of their excuses

:clap1: Great post as usual.

[Kizzy]

I didn't condemn him, I queried his use of language? As none of us or the media are privy to the intelligence gathered and no military action has been threatened to my knowledge I felt it was an inflammatory thing to say to the public. Not one of us outside of the government has a say in this and trying to whip up opposition by pulling on people's heartstrings seems wrong to me.....although the fear mongering from some tabloids also deserves derision too.

This whole situation is a mess, there are far too many what ifs, buts and maybes

It does give a little perspective to the situation though doesn't it?
Makes you rationalise a little better
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE!!! .....YEAH!
WE SHOULDN'T STAND FOR IT!.... NO!

ALL YOUR KIDS SHOULD SIGN UP IMMEDIATELY!! .... er, hang on a minute :/

We shouldn't accept this rabble rousing reactionary politics, we need examination, discussion, evidence before there is a response.
All this 'we should get behind the govt' Why?

[Twosugars]

there won't be any war over this, any talk of a war is just hysteria

Russia sabotaged the Litvinienko investigation so I wouldn't be involving Russia in any investigation now. It's enough for UK to get confirmation from un chemical weapons inspectors who arrive on Tuesday.

[Kazanne]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/theresa-may-has-embarrassed-vladimir-putin-at-his-own-political-game-russia-expert-says/ar-BBKli2x?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp

She's done what needed to be done I think.

[Northern Monkey]

This was most likely the Russian government and i think most people would agree including myself but I think it’s a perfectly reasonable position for people to question things with situations as volatile and important as this.Specially after Iraq.There’s always that 1% chance that there’s another explanation.Like a leak for instance.
I didn’t agree with Corbyn politicising this,going on about diplomat cuts but I don’t think anybody should be getting criticised and called unpatriotic for trying to look at this objectively.
Yes there will be silly conspiracy theories but i think they’re quite easy to weed out.

[Kizzy]

Why destroy your stockpile if you were going start killing people?

https://www.opcw.org/news/article/opcw-marks-completion-of-destruction-of-russian-chemical-weapons-stockpile/

[Twosugars]

Don't believe they destroyed everything.


In other news British intelligence services warn that a cyber attack by Russia on British financial system or utilities may be coming
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/17/uk-finance-power-water-on-high-alert-threat-russian-cyber-reprisal-grows

[Northern Monkey]

Don't believe they destroyed everything.


In other news British intelligence services warn that a cyber attack by Russia on British financial system or utilities may be coming
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/mar/17/uk-finance-power-water-on-high-alert-threat-russian-cyber-reprisal-grows

I don’t know.I heard an interview with the Russian ambassador to Britain saying that a cyber attack from Britain would be seen by Russia as an act of war.
If that’s how they consider it,Would they do it to us?Basically declaring war.
Unless maybe we’re doing it to them?May did say that there might be other measures which she can’t discuss publicly.
Scary.

[Nicky91]

I don’t know.I heard an interview with the Russian ambassador to Britain saying that a cyber attack from Britain would be seen by Russia as an act of war.
If that’s how they consider it,Would they do it to us?Basically declaring war.
Unless maybe we’re doing it to them?May did say that there might be other measures which she can’t discuss publicly.
Scary.

russian ambassador to Britain hmmm, i feel a next victim of poisoning coming :suspect:


Putin must be stopped, him and his regime :fist: :fist: