The second 'great depression'

[Kizzy]

In 2010 osborne touted austerity as a 5yr fix for the economy, now hammond is projecting it won't end till 2025!

We are in the grip of the 2nd great depression but as pointed out it is not an economic necessity it's a political strategy.

So the question is, by shrinking the state is this achieved by cutting off the lifelines for those most in need, if yes could this be considered eugenics?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/analysis-and-features/uk-economy-latest-updates-feeble-recovery-record-spring-statement-ifs-recession-philip-hammond-a8255756.html

[DemolitionRed]

So homelessness has doubled since 2010 and they are going to let it continue. Its taken a decade for people to wake up and realize they are being robbed. Whilst some are still happy to remain oblivious and believe its all for the greater good, the general feeling about austerity isn't good.

[arista]

5 May 2022
is the next official date of the General Election
of course that date could change,
but 2025 - who will be in power?

[arista]

So homelessness has doubled since 2010 and they are going to let it continue. Its taken a decade for people to wake up and realize they are being robbed. Whilst some are still happy to remain oblivious and believe its all for the greater good, the general feeling about austerity isn't good.


All Over the Whole World
not just the UK.

[kirklancaster]

5 May 2022
is the next official date of the General Election
of course that date could change,
but 2025 - who will be in power?

The way things are going - Vladimir Putin. :hee:

[arista]

The way things are going - Vladimir Putin. :hee:


Well Kirk
that would be Fun.


My bunker would be busy

[Beso]

Not surprised homelessness has risen considering the amount of new citizens we are allowing in.

[smudgie]

Not surprised homelessness has risen considering the amount of new citizens we are allowing in.

Not forgetting us older beggars just wont pop off.

[Kazanne]

Not surprised homelessness has risen considering the amount of new citizens we are allowing in.


Exactly this ,I sometimes think some people think the powers that be can just click there fingers and solve these problems,it's like trying to put 2 litres into a one litre jug.Loads of people here aswell that shouldn't be,

[DemolitionRed]

Recessions have a habit of reversing themselves without austerity. The big depression of 1930 recovered quickly without austerity and it achieved that by growth, not cuts.

The governments of this country have been successfully running an over-drought since the late sixteen hundreds. Deficits (not the same as debt) are good because they allow spending and because spending comes before tax (something the general papers don't seem to get) collected taxes will eventually cancel that debt. If they don't collect enough taxes its not a problem because the government have the ability to cancel their own debt (MP John Redwood http://johnredwoodsdiary.com/2018/03/05/the-twin-deficits/)

Our economy is deflated enough. Its time for growth because if we continue saving and continue to stifle growth we will shrink further and as a nation, I don't believe we can afford to shrink much more.

[DemolitionRed]

Exactly this ,I sometimes think some people think the powers that be can just click there fingers and solve these problems,it's like trying to put 2 litres into a one litre jug.Loads of people here aswell that shouldn't be,

Nobody is suggesting anyone clicks their fingers! So you think continued austerity is something to do with 'loads of people here that shouldn't be'?

[Brillopad]

Nobody is suggesting anyone clicks their fingers! So you think continued austerity is something to do with 'loads of people here that shouldn't be'?

We aren’t responsible for those loads of people here that shouldn’t be so why should we be providing for them?

[DemolitionRed]

We aren’t responsible for those loads of people here that shouldn’t be so why should we be providing for them?

Yes okay but what does this have to do with austerity?

[Brillopad]

Yes okay but what does this have to do with austerity?

You’re the one saying the government should stop austerity to provide for people who have no right to be here.

[DemolitionRed]

You’re the one saying the government should stop austerity to provide for people who have no right to be here.

Really? can you point out where I said this?

[Brillopad]

Really? can you point out where I said this?

“So you think austerity is something to do with loads of people here who shouldn’t be’.

I read that a certain way. Reading it another way I think People have been sneaking into this country, or outstaying their welcome for decades - add the huge increase in recent years and I would say all those extra people are adding to the burden.

[Kizzy]

You’re the one saying the government should stop austerity to provide for people who have no right to be here.

Are you saying they are right not providing for anyone because in your mind some people do not belong here?... :/

Fuzziest logic ever.

[DemolitionRed]

“So you think austerity is something to do with loads of people here who shouldn’t be’.

I read that a certain way. Reading it another way I think People have been sneaking into this country, or outstaying their welcome for decades - add the huge increase in recent years and I would say all those extra people are adding to the burden.

Extra people has got zilch, diddly-squat, nunya, Jack-**** to do with austerity but if you want to rock on with that baffling belief, I'll converse with you on this subject no further.

[Oliver_W]

Extra people has got zilch, diddly-squat, nunya, Jack-**** to do with austerity but if you want to rock on with that baffling belief, I'll converse with you on this subject no further.

I think what Brillo's trying to say is ... if all the surplus people were on welfare, that'd be a lot of money being spent, and austerity would mean less of them were being given money ... ?

[Kizzy]

I think what Brillo's trying to say is ... if all the surplus people were on welfare, that'd be a lot of money being spent, and austerity would mean less of them were being given money ... ?

Well that is very presumptuous and very wrong ... Austerity isn't simply focused on welfare is it?

[Marsh.]

Wow, anything and everything somehow will always be pointed back at the pesky immigrants. :joker:

[kirklancaster]

I do not understand this thread??? We are NOWHERE remotely near THE 'Great Depression' :shrug:

[user104658]

We may not be in "the great depression" but we are in a serious mess. Towns outside of major city centres are dirty, falling apart, full of empty / boarded up buildings, lacking in decent amenities or even in any way being a desirable place to be. Also, having just driven from Scotland to London, I can quite confidently say that our roads are absolutely shocking nation wide. An actual disgrace, even on the motorways and major A roads. Barely fit for purpose and in some places just blatantly dangerous.

And things are only going to get worse if some money doesn't start being spent somewhere. WHY are some people so insistent that living in a dirty, grubby, un-modern and embarrassing country is somehow a badge of honour?? "Oh look at us! We spend so little money! We're so frugal! Look at all of our horrible, decaying mess!"

[Beso]

We may not be in "the great depression" but we are in a serious mess. Towns outside of major city centres are dirty, falling apart, full of empty / boarded up buildings, lacking in decent amenities or even in any way being a desirable place to be. Also, having just driven from Scotland to London, I can quite confidently say that our roads are absolutely shocking nation wide. An actual disgrace, even on the motorways and major A roads. Barely fit for purpose and in some places just blatantly dangerous.

And things are only going to get worse if some money doesn't start being spent somewhere. WHY are some people so insistent that living in a dirty, grubby, un-modern and embarrassing country is somehow a badge of honour?? "Oh look at us! We spend so little money! We're so frugal! Look at all of our horrible, decaying mess!"

I see what you are saying, but i am in the middle of a weeks holiday in my hometown in scotland...i hardly recognise it now after 6 yrs away as its been tarted up that much.

[user104658]

I see what you are saying, but i am in the middle of a weeks holiday in my hometown in scotland...i hardly recognise it now after 6 yrs away as its been tarted up that much.At the same time that I'm on a week down in London... Are you avoiding me, Parmy? :joker:

[DemolitionRed]

I do not understand this thread??? We are NOWHERE remotely near THE 'Great Depression' :shrug:


What I actually said was, the way to climb out of a depression and stagnation (created by the 2008 crisis not immigration) is by stimulating growth. After the world crash our national debt soured to 87% of GDP. After WW2 it stood at 243%. One of the first things Clement Attlee did was build the NHS.

A recession is not a time to start putting money in the piggy bank and making cuts that cripple future Growth. This isn't home economics, its a government that owes its debt to The Bank of England of which it owns. In other words, the £453 billion it borrowed to help pay off the debt was borrowed from itself and therefore could of been written off.

Instead it chose massive cuts on its nation and those cuts have created further economic stagnation.

[user104658]

London is mostly great by the way - it really is obvious how much more gets spent on this city than any other in the UK. Then again, I don't really begrudge it as there are also security guards at KFC and Poundland. Security guards! You're lucky if you get a manned till without shouting down the shop at my local Poundland [emoji23].

Also I get that underground station updates are ongoing and it takes time to get round all of them - but how come some of them look like modern art exhibits or futuristic scenes from Tron... While others are straight out of a Dickens novel? Or Edgar Allen Poe in some cases :worry:.

[DemolitionRed]

London is mostly great by the way - it really is obvious how much more gets spent on this city than any other in the UK. Then again, I don't really begrudge it as there are also security guards at KFC and Poundland. Security guards! You're lucky if you get a manned till without shouting down the shop at my local Poundland [emoji23].

Also I get that underground station updates are ongoing and it takes time to get round all of them - but how come some of them look like modern art exhibits or futuristic scenes from Tron... While others are straight out of a Dickens novel? Or Edgar Allen Poe in some cases :worry:.

I agree. Central London is great, especially Oxford St. Go and take a look around some of the deprived areas though. There's plenty of them but they are well hidden from the tourists. For the poor, London is hostile, expensive and depressing.

[waterhog]

The way things are going - Vladimir Putin. :hee:




kirky baby - if we all rally on TIBB we are a force that can take on putin - you don't min d being at front of our army kirky baby ? I have to go last to make sure no one is left behind.


come on lets all pull together - :joker:

[chuff me dizzy]

Not surprised homelessness has risen considering the amount of new citizens we are allowing in.

:clap1: And the same reason for NHS to be on its arse !

[smudgie]

I do not understand this thread??? We are NOWHERE remotely near THE 'Great Depression' :shrug:

Not even close the the 1970s even.:shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

:joker: :smug:

[DemolitionRed]

Not even close the the 1970s even.:shrug:

Its an odd thing. I said Recessions have a habit of reversing themselves without austerity. The big depression of 1930 recovered quickly without austerity and it achieved that by growth, not cuts.

Kirk then quoted me and said We are NOWHERE remotely near THE 'Great Depression'

which was an odd thing to say as it had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

You then agree with him which means you either didn't read what I said or just want to tag team.

All you lot are trying to do is kill a debate with glib sarcasms that have nothing to do with what this thread is about.

[Livia]

With all the crap going on in the world, I'm kind of surprised things are now being manufactured for us to worry about. Anyone who thinks this is anything like the recession in the 30s shows a rather pitiful lack of knowledge on the subject and what's worse, they're expecting the rest of us to be equally as ill-informed. As for eugenics... I sometimes think things like this are posted knowing most people are going to come in and say it's rubbish. And it is.

[user104658]

I agree. Central London is great, especially Oxford St. Go and take a look around some of the deprived areas though. There's plenty of them but they are well hidden from the tourists. For the poor, London is hostile, expensive and depressing.I won't disagree with that last part; yesterday I paid £16 for 4 ice creams... And £2.10 for a can of coke! I was like "Excuse me??" :umm2:

[Livia]

There won't be any poor left in London once they've shipped them all out to make way for more gentrification, more hipsters, more wealthy people, more Russians... The East End used to have a culture all of its own but it's been destroyed bit by bit.

[smudgie]

Its an odd thing. I said

Kirk then quoted me and said

which was an odd thing to say as it had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

You then agree with him which means you either didn't read what I said or just want to tag team.

All you lot are trying to do is kill a debate with glib sarcasms that have nothing to do with what this thread is about.

This part of “all you lot” was answering in a quote, from Kirk, he had stated that what we are experiencing now is nothing like the Great Depression.
I stated that it was also nothing like the 1970s.
Quite simple, debating, not tag teaming or anything else you care to call it.
The thread title is about the Great Depression, and its second coming, so of course what we both said has everything to do with what the thread is about.:shrug:

[Brillopad]

:joker:

Edited to add: Maybe I'll go off and pray for an adult conversation on here.

Patronising claptrap. :rolleyes:

[Beso]

I won't disagree with that last part; yesterday I paid £16 for 4 ice creams... And £2.10 for a can of coke! I was like "Excuse me??" :umm2:

Ice cream!!...in this weather..
Very irrisponsible.

[Beso]

There won't be any poor left in London once they've shipped them all out to make way for more gentrification, more hipsters, more wealthy people, more Russians... The East End used to have a culture all of its own but it's been destroyed bit by bit.

Ruined, i was greatly upset getting off the tube at aldgate east for the walk up to the blind begger.

[AnnieK]

Its an odd thing. I said

Kirk then quoted me and said

which was an odd thing to say as it had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

You then agree with him which means you either didn't read what I said or just want to tag team.

All you lot are trying to do is kill a debate with glib sarcasms that have nothing to do with what this thread is about.

I can't see where you were quoted DM?

[Marsh.]

I won't disagree with that last part; yesterday I paid £16 for 4 ice creams... And £2.10 for a can of coke! I was like "Excuse me??" :umm2:
Should've let the bloody blighters starve until they're earning themselves. :nono:

[jet]

:joker:

Edited to add: Maybe I'll go off and pray for an adult conversation on here.

Careful you don't fall off that high horse. :nono:

[Kizzy]

:laugh: Ahhhhhh.... Yes. I understand now. :laugh:

If you don't want to be part of the discussion then don't, had you chosen to read the linked article and the information contained you might understand better where I'm coming from, you quite obviously haven't which is why you've chosen to insult me personally instead.

I will report any further mockery/trolling.

[Cherie]

I agree. Central London is great, especially Oxford St. Go and take a look around some of the deprived areas though. There's plenty of them but they are well hidden from the tourists. For the poor, London is hostile, expensive and depressing.

I came to London 20 years ago, I was poor I found it exciting tbh, and one thing about London if you want to work you will get a job.

[Cherie]

I won't disagree with that last part; yesterday I paid £16 for 4 ice creams... And £2.10 for a can of coke! I was like "Excuse me??" :umm2:

I assume you are in Central London, it would be the same in Times Square, or St Peters or the hub of any City

[Kizzy]

With all the crap going on in the world, I'm kind of surprised things are now being manufactured for us to worry about. Anyone who thinks this is anything like the recession in the 30s shows a rather pitiful lack of knowledge on the subject and what's worse, they're expecting the rest of us to be equally as ill-informed. As for eugenics... I sometimes think things like this are posted knowing most people are going to come in and say it's rubbish. And it is.

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2018/03/14/14/ifs.jpg

The info is from the IFS, when measures are implemented that specifically target certain groups as has happened and continues to happen with regard to welfare then it's not too much of a leap to suggest that the focus is intentional.

It was a suggestion in a debate, made to inspire debate... What has it inspired in you? The usual scoffing mockery with no input as is the norm.

To come into a debate simply to insult the OP is rude and unnecessary.

[Kizzy]

I came to London 20 years ago, I was poor I found it exciting tbh, and one thing about London if you want to work you will get a job.

A lot can happen in 20yrs Cherie :)

[Livia]

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/thumbnails/image/2018/03/14/14/ifs.jpg

The info is from the IFS, when measures are implemented that specifically target certain groups as has happened and continues to happen with regard to welfare then it's not too much of a leap to suggest that the focus is intentional.

It was a suggestion in a debate, made to inspire debate... What has it inspired in you? The usual scoffing mockery with no input as is the norm.

To come into a debate simply to insult the OP is rude and unnecessary.

I wasn't mocking the topic, although there is plenty of room for it. I was mocking you telling people how you're going to report them for things you regularly do yourself. I think we're all going to be doing a little more reporting in future, I know I am.

[Cherie]

[[/QUOTE]

A lot can happen in 20yrs Cherie :)

You are right, I am no longer poor!

[smudgie]

[



You are right, I am no longer poor![/QUOTE]

Lend us a fiver.:joker:

[Kazanne]

I wish people would stop the woe is me attitude tbh,we aren't living under four poles with a sheet on for cover, where our water is limited and dirty and where they have probably never tasted ice cream or coke,can't we for once be grateful for what we have most of which are luxuries, ok I know there is a lot of room for improvement,but we do have it pretty good compared to a lot of people.

[Kizzy]

You are right, I am no longer poor!

Good for you, what's your take on the topic though?

[Kizzy]

I wasn't mocking the topic, although there is plenty of room for it. I was mocking you telling people how you're going to report them for things you regularly do yourself. I think we're all going to be doing a little more reporting in future, I know I am.

I kinda got that, what's your take on the topic then?

[Cherie]

Good for you, what's your take on the topic though?


I don't think we are in a depression, no, we have a lot to be thankful for, no era is perfect

[Cherie]

You are right, I am no longer poor!

Lend us a fiver.:joker:[/QUOTE]


I think you could lend me a tenner instead :laugh:

[Marsh.]

I wish people would stop the woe is me attitude tbh,we aren't living under four poles with a sheet on for cover, where our water is limited and dirty and where they have probably never tasted ice cream or coke,can't we for once be grateful for what we have most of which are luxuries, ok I know there is a lot of room for improvement,but we do have it pretty good compared to a lot of people.
I understand what you're trying to say about us collectively as a country that is far from third world.

However, being thankful for ice cream and coke doesn't come into it when you're disabled and having your money slashed to the point you can barely even be supported to live even the most basic of lives.

[jet]

I wish people would stop the woe is me attitude tbh,we aren't living under four poles with a sheet on for cover, where our water is limited and dirty and where they have probably never tasted ice cream or coke,can't we for once be grateful for what we have most of which are luxuries, ok I know there is a lot of room for improvement,but we do have it pretty good compared to a lot of people.

:clap1: The pity party is quite pathetic. There have been worse times, and there have been better times but we have always had it better than lots of other countries in a multitude of ways. Stop moaning!

[Kazanne]

:clap1: The pity party is quite pathetic. There have been worse times, and there have been better times but we have always had it better than lots of other countries in a multitude of ways. Stop moaning!

I just have to smile at some people who ring up about their benefits on £600 smartphones, and Jet that DOES happen.

[Marsh.]

I just have to smile at some people who ring up about their benefits on £600 smartphones, and Jet that DOES happen.
Even the ones with 4 year old smartphones with a cracked screen they were given from a friend who had it rattling in a drawer after renewing their contract?

It's easy to judge someone at face value with no insight into their actual life.

But then how many people have you sat watching ringing up about benefits on their smartphone?

[Kazanne]

I understand what you're trying to say about us collectively as a country that is far from third world.

However, being thankful for ice cream and coke doesn't come into it when you're disabled and having your money slashed to the point you can barely even be supported to live even the most basic of lives.

We had a disabled man my mom used to look after until he passed away, he was looked after moneywise by the DWP and Mobility benefit,he was able to get special equipment for free, the only one who wasn't looked after was my mom who looked after him 24/7,but did she moan? No she just did it because she cared, not everything has to have money attached to it, I do understand some people have great difficulties and it's not easy,but I think there is help if you look in the right places, but then again,I am not very intelligent so my opinion really wont matter to you.:smug:

[Marsh.]

We had a disabled man my mom used to look after until he passed away, he was looked after moneywise by the DWP and Mobility benefit,he was able to get special equipment for free, the only one who wasn't looked after was my mom who looked after him 24/7,but did she moan? No she just did it because she cared, not everything has to have money attached to it, I do understand some people have great difficulties and it's not easy,but I think there is help if you look in the right places, but then again,I am not very intelligent so my opinion really wont matter to you.:smug:
Yes my brother gets absolutely everything for free and my mum's just moaning for the sake of it. It's all want, want, want.

Thanks for that.

[Kazanne]

Yes my brother gets absolutely everything for free and my mum's just moaning for the sake of it. It's all want, want, want.

Thanks for that.

I wasn't on about your situation,I know nothing about it,I was commenting on my own experience with them, I aint gonna lie just to appease anyone, they were really good with him,the only stumbling block we found was the council, who wouldn't even give him a ramp for by his front door, but we had no problems with anything else.

[Marsh.]

I wasn't on about your situation,I know nothing about it,I was commenting on my own experience with them, I aint gonna lie just to appease anyone, they were really good with him,the only stumbling block we found was the council, who wouldn't even give him a ramp for by his front door, but we had no problems with anything else.

Explaining your experience is fine Kazanne.
I haven't asked you to lie.

"Did she moan?" However implies that everyone "moaning" is in a similar position and moaning over nothing.

The world extends beyond our own front yards sometimes.

[jet]

Some think that poverty these days means not having a smartphone and a big screen tv.

When we were kids in the late 50's/60's we couldn't afford coal for the fire, there was no central heating, we had the most basic of diets and we got our clothes handed down from the bigger kids. We had no TV, only a radio. Sweets and biscuits caused great excitement because we rarely got any. Most families were in the same boat - and you know what? - we were Happy!
I worked bloody hard long hours to get where I am today, which is pretty well off. Life isn't static, things change, you just have to work towards better times because nothing stays the same forever, including the economy.

[Kizzy]

I don't think we are in a depression, no, we have a lot to be thankful for, no era is perfect



https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/907311/Stock-market-crash-CAPE-Ratio-share-price-value-2018-Great-Depression

[Kizzy]

I know something this thread is more than depressing, wait while I go for a jog on the M6:laugh:

Is anyone forcing you to comment?...

[Marsh.]

The smartphone argument is kind of tired.

Owning a mobile is no longer a sign of affluence. :joker:

[Kizzy]

Yep it could be from brighthouse, 50p a week for 9542 weeks :/

[jet]

I understand what you're trying to say about us collectively as a country that is far from third world.

However, being thankful for ice cream and coke doesn't come into it when you're disabled and having your money slashed to the point you can barely even be supported to live even the most basic of lives.

I know quite a few disabled people through my friend who is a social worker and they all get a decent mobility benefit, free equipment and some had their houses altered at quite a cost to suit their disabilities. I wonder if it depends on where you live - is it the responsibility of local authorities? I'm in N. Ireland.
Anyone with a disability should get help to have the best possible quality of life.

[jet]

Yep it could be from brighthouse, 50p a week for 9542 weeks :/

Yes, people can have these things today for next to nothing. An example of how much better life is nowadays.

[Marsh.]

Local authorities and the underfunded special schools which don't have the staff to offer the children the one to one attention they desperately need. Who have one standing frame in the whole school when a lot of the kids require it's use for several hours a day.

[smudgie]

I know quite a few disabled people through my friend who is a social worker and they all get a decent mobility benefit, free equipment and some had their houses altered at quite a cost to suit their disabilities. I wonder if it depends on where you live - is it the responsibility of local authorities? I'm in N. Ireland.
Anyone with a disability should get help to have the best possible quality of life.

I think a lot can depend on where you live Jet.
Our council is pretty reasonable, you can have a stair lift or lift, providing you have little funding yourself and you apply when they have funding to spare.
My OT from the council said your wait for equipment depends on what's left in the kitty for that year.
Half steps, grab rails, perches and a few other things are free for all who need them, no matter if you have cash or not.

[Kizzy]

Yes, people can have these things today for next to nothing. An example of how much better life is nowadays.

Explain to me how high interest rates, the highest I've seen recently was an ad for loans at 4729% interest makes life 'better'?

[Beso]

From the age of 18 to 24 i used to sit freezing and hungry with barely enough money for heating and food...why?

Cause i was a lazy ****er to lazy to go to work, then to lazy to look for work..

Look at me now though, i have everything i need and want because i finally got off my arse and realised what lifes all about...now if i can get a good paying job with my past employment record then any able bodied person can...

[Kizzy]

From the age of 18 to 24 i used to sit freezing and hungry with barely enough money for heating and food...why?

Cause i was a lazy ****er to lazy to go to work, then to lazy to look for work..

Look at me now though, i have everything i need and want because i finally got if my arse and realised what lifes all about...now if i can get a good paying job with my past employment record then any able bodied person can...

I'm happy for you but what has this to do with the thread?

[Marsh.]

There are enough jobs for every able bodied person?

[Beso]

I'm happy for you but what has this to do with the thread?

Stuff was just the same for some then as it is now, maybe all these cold hungry poor souls need to take a leaf out of uncle parmys book and get off thier lazy arses and go where the work is...
Obvioysly not cold and hungry enough yet with the appeasment made for the idle by offering them foodbanks.

[Cherie]

https://www.express.co.uk/finance/city/907311/Stock-market-crash-CAPE-Ratio-share-price-value-2018-Great-Depression

"could" being the operative word in that headline

and if it does, it does, will we starve, probably not

[Cherie]

Local authorities and the underfunded special schools which don't have the staff to offer the children the one to one attention they desperately need. Who have one standing frame in the whole school when a lot of the kids require it's use for several hours a day.

kids need their own standing frames suited to their size and weight, the school I worked at had a standing frame per student that needed one, maybe its the management at the school that is at fault?

[Kizzy]

"could" being the operative word in that headline

and if it does, it does, will we starve, probably not

The point o posting that was primarily to silence the mocking voices that are suggesting that basically I'm one sandwich short of a picnic to even suggest that there is a direct correlation between the economy today and that of the 1930s.

Yet here we have a very similar theme running through the economic forecasts of a popular newspaper...

Whether or not is says 'could''might' 'may' or whatever the theory is out there isn't it, I'm not the only person in the UK to suggest it?

[DemolitionRed]

I came to London 20 years ago, I was poor I found it exciting tbh, and one thing about London if you want to work you will get a job.

I came to London twenty years ago as well. I walked straight into a job and so did my husband. We've done okay so I'm not going to complain about my personal circumstances.

Not everyone is as fortunate as us. If you have a qualification and you can earn more than the living wage; if you have enough money for a mortgage or a stable place to live and if you have a secure job, then London can be a fabulous place to live. If on the other hand you work a zero hour contract and can only afford to rent a grubby flat in Stockwell or Harlesden, then life in London isn't going to be easy or fun.

We can't say that because we did okay, everyone else has the same opportunity... they don't

[bots]

In economics, a depression is a sustained, long-term downturn in economic activity in one or more economies. It is a more severe economic downturn than a recession, which is a slowdown in economic activity over the course of a normal business cycle.

A depression is an unusual and extreme form of recession. Depressions are characterized by their length, by abnormally large increases in unemployment, falls in the availability of credit (often due to some form of banking or financial crisis), shrinking output as buyers dry up and suppliers cut back on production and investment, large number of bankruptcies including sovereign debt defaults, significantly reduced amounts of trade and commerce (especially international trade), as well as highly volatile relative currency value fluctuations (often due to currency devaluations). Price deflation, financial crises and bank failures are also common elements of a depression that do not normally occur during a recession.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(economics)

Unemployment is decreasing, there is still plenty credit available, there are still plenty buyers. We are not seeing an abnormal number of bankruptcies, our government has not defaulted on any loans, we are still doing plenty of trade and commerce. Our currency is relatively stable. We have not seen any recent financial crisis, our banks are recovering nicely.

No, we are not in a depression or anything close to it

[Cherie]

I came to London twenty years ago as well. I walked straight into a job and so did my husband. We've done okay so I'm not going to complain about my personal circumstances.

Not everyone is as fortunate as us. If you have a qualification and you can earn more than the living wage; if you have enough money for a mortgage or a stable place to live and if you have a secure job, then London can be a fabulous place to live. If on the other hand you work a zero hour contract and can only afford to rent a grubby flat in Stockwell or Harlesden, then life in London isn't going to be easy or fun.

We can't say that because we did okay, everyone else has the same opportunity... they don't

With all due respect there are as many job opportunities in London now as there every were, there are still jobs where you work on a contract, you can get lots of government which wasn't available 20 years ago to buy a property, help to buy isa, shared ownership, etc, not every rented flat is grubby, yes things have changed and you might not be able to own your property outright to begin with, but eventually you will get there and you have to roll with the times and appreciate the positives, like low interest rates, alot of people will also benefit from inheritances which really didn't happen in the past. You say not every one is as fortunate is you, maybe not, but then maybe not everyone has the same aspirations or drive or desire to do okay... it takes all sorts and you can't pidgeon hole everyone into neat boxes

[chuff me dizzy]

In economics, a depression is a sustained, long-term downturn in economic activity in one or more economies. It is a more severe economic downturn than a recession, which is a slowdown in economic activity over the course of a normal business cycle.

A depression is an unusual and extreme form of recession. Depressions are characterized by their length, by abnormally large increases in unemployment, falls in the availability of credit (often due to some form of banking or financial crisis), shrinking output as buyers dry up and suppliers cut back on production and investment, large number of bankruptcies including sovereign debt defaults, significantly reduced amounts of trade and commerce (especially international trade), as well as highly volatile relative currency value fluctuations (often due to currency devaluations). Price deflation, financial crises and bank failures are also common elements of a depression that do not normally occur during a recession.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(economics)

Unemployment is decreasing, there is still plenty credit available, there are still plenty buyers. We are not seeing an abnormal number of bankruptcies, our government has not defaulted on any loans, we are still doing plenty of trade and commerce. Our currency is relatively stable. We have not seen any recent financial crisis, our banks are recovering nicely.

No, we are not in a depression or anything close to it

Totally agree ,but sadly that doesn't suit everyones agendas :idc:

[Beso]

A lick of paint may help erradicate the grubbiness.

More DIY tips are available.

[Kizzy]

In economics, a depression is a sustained, long-term downturn in economic activity in one or more economies. It is a more severe economic downturn than a recession, which is a slowdown in economic activity over the course of a normal business cycle.

A depression is an unusual and extreme form of recession. Depressions are characterized by their length, by abnormally large increases in unemployment, falls in the availability of credit (often due to some form of banking or financial crisis), shrinking output as buyers dry up and suppliers cut back on production and investment, large number of bankruptcies including sovereign debt defaults, significantly reduced amounts of trade and commerce (especially international trade), as well as highly volatile relative currency value fluctuations (often due to currency devaluations). Price deflation, financial crises and bank failures are also common elements of a depression that do not normally occur during a recession.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(economics)

Unemployment is decreasing, there is still plenty credit available, there are still plenty buyers. We are not seeing an abnormal number of bankruptcies, our government has not defaulted on any loans, we are still doing plenty of trade and commerce. Our currency is relatively stable. We have not seen any recent financial crisis, our banks are recovering nicely.

No, we are not in a depression or anything close to it

Have you heard of Carillion? or Brexit? You don't think they've affected investment or trade :/

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/jan/26/uk-insolvencies-at-highest-level-since-2008-financial-crisis

[DemolitionRed]

With all due respect there are as many job opportunities in London now as there every were, there are still jobs where you work on a contract, you can get lots of government which wasn't available 20 years ago to buy a property, help to buy isa, shared ownership, etc, not every rented flat is grubby, yes things have changed and you might not be able to own your property outright to begin with, but eventually you will get there and you have to roll with the times and appreciate the positives, like low interest rates, alot of people will also benefit from inheritances which really didn't happen in the past. You say not every one is as fortunate is you, maybe not, but then maybe not everyone has the same aspirations or drive or desire to do okay... it takes all sorts and you can't pidgeon hole everyone into neat boxes

You're presuming the entire population are well educated and can therefore climb the ladder to success. Fortunately London still need cleaners, shop assistants, care assistants and waitresses but most of those contracts aren't sallaried and even if they are, many contracts aren't the needed 40hpw but more like 22hpw. You can't independently survive on £7.83 ph in a job that isn't salaried or only gives you part time hours without having a second job or even a third job and even if you slog a 50 hour week, your earnings, after tax, are still going to be a poor mans wage. If your'e a single earner, you are hardly going to afford your rent, never mind get on the housing ladder.

[Brillopad]

You're pressuring the entire population are well educated and can therefore climb the ladder to success. Fortunately London still need cleaners, shop assistants, care assistants and waitresses but most of those contracts aren't sallaried and even if they are, many contracts aren't the needed 40hpw but more like 22hpw. You can't independently survive on £7.83 ph in a job that isn't salaried or only gives you part time hours without having a second job or even a third job and even if you slog a 50 hour week, your earnings, after tax, are still going to be a poor mans wage. If your'e a single earner, you are hardly going to afford your rent, never mind get on the housing ladder.

That’s why people get an education and skills is it not - to improve their lifestyles. Not everyone can have the same. The world never has and never will work like that.

[MTVN]

Deleted a lot of posts in here. This is serious debates so let's keep the discussion on topic and serious

[Marsh.]

That’s why people get an education and skills is it not - to improve their lifestyles. Not everyone can have the same. The world never has and never will work like that.
Yes. But he was highlighting why everybody can't do what Cherie did because not everybody gets into higher education either because they don't pass the exams or they can't afford it etc etc rather than them not climbing the ladder because they lack drive.

Not everyone is going to reach huge heights with a posh car and 4 holidays a year but people who do honest work 50 hours a week should at least be able to show something for it. In the current climate, they cant.

[DemolitionRed]

That’s why people get an education and skills is it not - to improve their lifestyles. Not everyone can have the same. The world never has and never will work like that.

Anyone who works in a modern society, should be able to afford some level of comfort. That includes living accommodation, decent food and a way of paying the bills. There are many adults in the UK who can't afford to move out of their parents house.

[Maru]

As my husband would often say, "should" and "are" are two different things.

[jaxie]

We definitely are not in a depression like those of the past and it's mind boggling that anyone would think that. We are very lucky to live somewhere there are opportunities and even for those is dire situations there is some help available. It just isn't the same situation at all.

[Cherie]

You're presuming the entire population are well educated and can therefore climb the ladder to success. Fortunately London still need cleaners, shop assistants, care assistants and waitresses but most of those contracts aren't sallaried and even if they are, many contracts aren't the needed 40hpw but more like 22hpw. You can't independently survive on £7.83 ph in a job that isn't salaried or only gives you part time hours without having a second job or even a third job and even if you slog a 50 hour week, your earnings, after tax, are still going to be a poor mans wage. If your'e a single earner, you are hardly going to afford your rent, never mind get on the housing ladder.

and you are presuming that no one without a third level education can be successful which has been proven over the years to be untrue, as long as you are astute and are prepared to work hard lack of formal education does not need to be a barrier to success.

[Kizzy]

That’s why people get an education and skills is it not - to improve their lifestyles. Not everyone can have the same. The world never has and never will work like that.

And the country won't work without an 'unskilled' workforce, cleaners and such they are cogs in the machine like any other aren't they?

What's the point of a thousand solicitors or dentists when all you need is someone to make the bed in your hotel?

Unskilled work does not equal unnecessary work.

[Kizzy]

As my husband would often say, "should" and "are" are two different things.

Could you expand please?

[bots]

what seems to be implied here is that everyone should be rewarded equally whether they work hard or not, whether they are skilled or not, which of course is communist nonesense

[Cherie]

what seems to be implied here is that everyone should be rewarded equally whether they work hard or not, whether they are skilled or not, which of course is communist nonesense

that is how I am reading it as well

[DemolitionRed]

and you are presuming that no one without a third level education can be successful which has been proven over the years to be untrue, as long as you are astute and are prepared to work hard lack of formal education does not need to be a barrier to success.

No I'm not. But people have to be in the right place at the right time to be given opportunities. My husband has apprentices but they are carefully selected. They have to show a level of intelligence or he's wasting his time and theirs. He also has laborers. Guys he pays on a daily basis to come along and do the dirty work.
One of his laborers has now become his apprentice because he's committed, has an eye for detail and has a good head on his shoulders, this guy told me recently that he can't believe he's come this far because he always believed his working life would come to nothing. Lack of confidence and lack of the right contacts where you have the opportunity to prove yourself hold a lot of people back.

[DemolitionRed]

what seems to be implied here is that everyone should be rewarded equally whether they work hard or not, whether they are skilled or not, which of course is communist nonesense

Nobody has said that. What's being said is, even people on low wages should be able to earn enough to pay for the necessities in life.

I also said, though be it in a round about way; we will always need cleaners, waitresses, care assistants and so on. They are valued members of society who work hard and do very necessary jobs. These people haven't failed if they don't climb the carrier ladder! If everyone climbed the ladder we would have a shortage of such people.

It would be ridiculous to suggest these people earn the same as a professional but don't you think such people should be just as valued and able to enjoy their salaries?

[Cherie]

No I'm not. But people have to be in the right place at the right time to be given opportunities. My husband has apprentices but they are carefully selected. They have to show a level of intelligence or he's wasting his time and theirs. He also has laborers. Guys he pays on a daily basis to come along and do the dirty work.
One of his laborers has now become his apprentice because he's committed, has an eye for detail and has a good head on his shoulders, this guy told me recently that he can't believe he's come this far because he always believed his working life would come to nothing. Lack of confidence and lack of the right contacts where you have the opportunity to prove yourself hold a lot of people back.

I wouldn't disagree with that either, there can be an element of luck involved but that said if the labourer in question hadn't shown initiative and promise or was unreliable he wouldn't have got that opportunity, people have to take personal responsibility for their own "luck" as well.

[DemolitionRed]

I wouldn't disagree with that either, there can be an element of luck involved but that said if the labourer in question hadn't shown initiative and promise or was unreliable he wouldn't have got that opportunity, people have to take personal responsibility for their own "luck" as well.

I agree but we have to keep in mind that some people can work really hard but still not have the initiative to progress onto something better and some people just hugely lack confidence in their ability. Lack of confidence or not being able to read and write properly puts huge restrictions on progression. It doesn't mean they don't work hard, it just means they work hard for very little reward.

[Beso]

Nobody has said that. What's being said is, even people on low wages should be able to earn enough to pay for the necessities in life.

I also said, though be it in a round about way; we will always need cleaners, waitresses, care assistants and so on. They are valued members of society who work hard and do very necessary jobs. These people haven't failed if they don't climb the carrier ladder! If everyone climbed the ladder we would have a shortage of such people.

It would be ridiculous to suggest these people earn the same as a professional but don't you think such people should be just as valued and able to enjoy their salaries?

Are you saying cleaners etc cant enjoy their wages?

Cant go on a night out? Cant save up for a holiday? Cant have mobiles etc? Cant start a family?


Omg, however did me and my ex wife cope
:shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

Are you saying cleaners etc cant enjoy their wages?

Cant go on a night out? Cant save up for a holiday? Cant have mobiles etc? Cant start a family?


Omg, however did me and my ex wife cope
:shrug:

You can't say that because you managed everyone else can. There's a lot of difference between two salaries and one. There's difference according to what part of the country you live in. A full time cleaner living in Cumbria can afford a lot more than a full time cleaner living in Surrey.

[Beso]

You can't say that because you managed everyone else can. There's a lot of difference between two salaries and one. There's difference according to what part of the country you live in. A full time cleaner living in Cumbria can afford a lot more than a full time cleaner living in Surrey.

Ahh the north south divide....

People can always move, like thousands and thousands have done in coming to the uk and lots of them take these jobs up in london and surrounding areas....so is it really that bad for these low paid workers if they are willing to give up a home and a life, then travel 1000s of miles to work just so they cant have anything?


Doesnt make sense to me...i would move if i worked 50 hours a week to sit and stare at a 1 barred heater all evening. move with a good reference to help you find work in an area i could afford.

[Brillopad]

I agree but we have to keep in mind that some people can work really hard but still not have the initiative to progress onto something better and some people just hugely lack confidence in their ability. Lack of confidence or not being able to read and write properly puts huge restrictions on progression. It doesn't mean they don't work hard, it just means they work hard for very little reward.

It isn't about how hard people work. Higher paid jobs usually involve other skills such as decision making, responsibility and the resulting accountability - they also tend to take their work home with them. You cannot expect people to get the same financial rewards just for working hard.

[Brillopad]

Nobody has said that. What's being said is, even people on low wages should be able to earn enough to pay for the necessities in life.

I also said, though be it in a round about way; we will always need cleaners, waitresses, care assistants and so on. They are valued members of society who work hard and do very necessary jobs. These people haven't failed if they don't climb the carrier ladder! If everyone climbed the ladder we would have a shortage of such people.

It would be ridiculous to suggest these people earn the same as a professional but don't you think such people should be just as valued and able to enjoy their salaries?

What are the necessities in life exactly? I am sure many people and different generations may disagree on that.

[Marsh.]

It isn't about how hard people work. Higher paid jobs usually involve other skills such as decision making, responsibility and the resulting accountability - they also tend to take their work home with them. You cannot expect people to get the same financial rewards just for working hard.
Nobody's suggested they should get the same. But the lower earners need to be paid more than they do due to the increasing living costs.

[DemolitionRed]

Ahh the north south divide....

People can always move, like thousands and thousands have done in coming to the uk and lots of them take these jobs up in london and surrounding areas....so is it really that bad for these low paid workers if they are willing to give up a home and a life, then travel 1000s of miles to work just so they cant have anything?


Yes it is that bad. Why should a worker on a lower income have to move some distance from family and friends? Believe it or not, many of the low paid workers in London were born and raised there.



Doesnt make sense to me...i would move if i worked 50 hours a week to sit and stare at a 1 barred heater all evening. move with a good reference to help you find work in an area i could afford.

Why are you trying to belittle everything I say? One barred heater... Nice one!

I have a friend who's an SP. Works 42 hpw on a minimum wage. She has a council house, so cheap rent, which is okay but the house is tired and desperately needs re-decorating. She has a mobile phone, a tv and central heating, though she doesn't have a car. She pays all her bills at the beginning of the month before buying provisions. On the third week of the month she starts to run out of coffee and can't afford to buy any. On the third week of the month she declines friends requests to come and join them for a drink or lunch and on the third week of the month she's counting the days till payday. In other words, by the third week of the month she's broke, even though she's been frugal with her last salary.

People who work hard and haven't accrued a mountain of debt, regardless of their job, should be able to afford basic provisions between salaries and not for just three weeks. If you can't do that then you are living on the bread line.

[DemolitionRed]

Nobody's suggested they should get the same. But the lower earners need to be paid more than they do due to the increasing living costs.

Thank you. Wages haven't kept up with inflation for nine years now.

[DemolitionRed]

What are the necessities in life exactly? I am sure many people and different generations may disagree on that.

What are the necessities of live in a modern society in todays Britain (not 40 or 50 years ago)? Is that what you meant or do you want to make comparisons with the 1960-70s or continents like Africa?

In a modern society and a cold country like Britain, the necessities are a secure roof over your head. enough money to retain that roof. Enough money to buy services such as water, gas and electric. Enough money to buy healthy food for an entire month. Enough money to wash your clothes. Enough money to afford transport to and from work. Enough money to relax and forget about your long day... therefore a tv and radio. Enough money for the license of that tv and radio. Enough money to buy clothes (not just charity shop clothes) as needed. Enough money to run a mobile phone but not necessarily a home phone. (A lot of employers won't employ someone with no phone number and everyone should have a life line). Enough money to have the odd day trip out or the odd coffee with friends.

Anything less than this in modern Britain is someone who just works and attempts to scrape through life.

[jet]

What are the necessities of live in a modern society in todays Britain (not 40 or 50 years ago)? Is that what you meant or do you want to make comparisons with the 1960-70s or continents like Africa?

In a modern society and a cold country like Britain, the necessities are a secure roof over your head. enough money to retain that roof. Enough money to buy services such as water, gas and electric. Enough money to buy healthy food for an entire month. Enough money to afford transport to and from work. Enough money to relax and forget about your long day... therefore a tv and radio. Enough money for the license of that tv and radio. Enough money to buy clothes (not just charity shop clothes) as needed. Enough money to run a mobile phone but not necessarily a home phone. (A lot of employers won't employ someone with no phone number and everyone should have a life line). Enough money to have the odd day trip out or the odd coffee with friends.

Anything less than this in modern Britain is someone who just works and attempts to scrape through life.

Many in the 60's/70's had it worse, why were we less deserving? Now, in the 2000's many of us who went through those times have it pretty good.
Life and circumstances are not just about today, they are about the past and about the future.
Why do you go on as if the poor will always be poor as if there is no hope that the future for this generation 10, 20 years down the line could be any different.

[Marsh.]

Many in the 60's/70's had it worse, why were we less deserving? Now, in the 2000's many of us who went through those times have it pretty good.
Life and circumstances are not just about today, they are about the past and about the future.
Why do you go on as if the poor will always be poor as if there is no hope that the future for this generation 10, 20 years down the line could be any different.
So maybe it needs to be fixed so that the young don't need to be poor and then maybe possibly have it better if they're lucky enough to survive until retirement.

"It's been worse" is not a reason for things to remain the way they are. Conditions and poverty are worse the further back into history you go. So, really, we should be continuing to strive to improve going forward again.

[DemolitionRed]

Many in the 60's/70's had it worse, why were we less deserving? Now, in the 2000's many of us who went through those times have it pretty good.


My grandparents lived in a little house in the mountains that had no internal running water or electricity but what has that got to do with modern times? That's like saying, well they weren't poor because their grandparents didn't even have a well and had to walk miles every day to collect water. We live in a modern wealthy democracy, not the past. Modern day poverty is very different to times of old but its still poverty.


Life and circumstances are not just about today, they are about the past and about the future.
Why do you go on as if the poor will always be poor as if there is no hope that the future for this generation 10, 20 years down the line could be any different.

Sorry but that's what you've decided to read into what I wrote. I'm saying why there can be problems but to you I'm saying "there's no hope or future for anyone who is poor"

[Beso]

Yes it is that bad. Why should a worker on a lower income have to move some distance from family and friends? Believe it or not, many of the low paid workers in London were born and raised there.



Why are you trying to belittle everything I say? One barred heater... Nice one!

I have a friend who's an SP. Works 42 hpw on a minimum wage. She has a council house, so cheap rent, which is okay but the house is tired and desperately needs re-decorating. She has a mobile phone, a tv and central heating, though she doesn't have a car. She pays all her bills at the beginning of the month before buying provisions. On the third week of the month she starts to run out of coffee and can't afford to buy any. On the third week of the month she declines friends requests to come and join them for a drink or lunch and on the third week of the month she's counting the days till payday. In other words, by the third week of the month she's broke, even though she's been frugal with her last salary.

People who work hard and haven't accrued a mountain of debt, regardless of their job, should be able to afford basic provisions between salaries and not for just three weeks. If you can't do that then you are living on the bread line.

I dont know why disagreeing with you and typing out an explanation as to why i disagree with you is seen by you as belittling what you say:shrug:

As for running out of coffee, even though it deserves belittling i wont.

Your friend needs to cut her monthly bills down, im sure she could if she tried...maybe her other friends could help out with a lick of paint..one for all and all that.

[DemolitionRed]

I dont know why disagreeing with you and typing out an explanation as to why i disagree with you is seen by you as belittling what you say:shrug:

As for running out of coffee, even though it deserves belittling i wont.

Your friend needs to cut her monthly bills down, im sure she could if she tried...maybe her other friends could help out with a lick of paint..one for all and all that.

There's a difference between running out of coffee and not having enough money to buy more! If you can't afford coffee because that doesn't leave enough for your bus fares, you can't afford anything else.

How does she cut her monthly bills down. Her bills are rent, council tax, services, mobile phone bill. Answers on a postcard please?

Its not the disagreeing, its the mocking tone.

[Beso]

You get a tone from reading...okay...im away to bury an old alkey...who managed to live in london for 30 yrs on a low wage..
Have fun moaning.

[jet]

My grandparents lived in a little house in the mountains that had no internal running water or electricity but what has that got to do with modern times? That's like saying, well they weren't poor because their grandparents didn't even have a well and had to walk miles every day to collect water. We live in a modern wealthy democracy, not the past. Modern day poverty is very different to times of old but its still poverty.



Sorry but that's what you've decided to read into what I wrote. I'm saying why there can be problems but to you I'm saying "there's no hope or future for anyone who is poor"

The 60's and 70's were modern times, it was hardly the dark ages or 'times of old'. There were wealthy people then too.
I guess maybe its an age thing - those brought up in hardship look at what the young have today and think 'they have more than we did - things are improving' - and 'if things got better for a lot of us, it will for them too'. We just didn't have the 'I want it NOW' attitude that seems to be around today.
And many young people today have the advantage of help from their parents which we did not.
Nothing in life is static, including the economy. There will always be good times and bad times. You can either wait it out with the help available nowadays with low income allowances or look into ways of improving your lot if you are at all capable of doing so.

[jet]

I have a friend who's an SP. Works 42 hpw on a minimum wage. She has a council house, so cheap rent, which is okay but the house is tired and desperately needs re-decorating. She has a mobile phone, a tv and central heating, though she doesn't have a car. She pays all her bills at the beginning of the month before buying provisions. On the third week of the month she starts to run out of coffee and can't afford to buy any. On the third week of the month she declines friends requests to come and join them for a drink or lunch and on the third week of the month she's counting the days till payday. In other words, by the third week of the month she's broke, even though she's been frugal with her last salary.

People who work hard and haven't accrued a mountain of debt, regardless of their job, should be able to afford basic provisions between salaries and not for just three weeks. If you can't do that then you are living on the bread line.

Central heating, a TV, coffee, a phone....of course it is everyone's right to expect to have these things nowadays, but I was brought up with none of those things and if we'd had them I would have thought we were rich! :laugh:
Now I have them all and more and I'm not rich, just pretty well off.
It's interesting how priorities and times change - maybe in 30 years time not having a robot to do all the stuff around the home for you or a big drive - itself car will be seen as being impoverished. The young have lots to look forward to!

[jaxie]

Central heating, a TV, coffee, a phone....of course it is everyone's right to expect to have these things nowadays, but I was brought up with none of those things and if we'd had them I would have thought we were rich! :laugh:
Now I have them all and more and I'm not rich, just pretty well off.
It's interesting how priorities and times change - maybe in 30 years time not having a robot to do all the stuff around the home for you or a big drive - itself car will be seen as being impoverished. The young have lots to look forward to!

Isn't it weird what people think is poverty today? I can remember times when a jam sandwich was all there was for the days food and being so cold you felt like your toes were done for. :shrug:

[DemolitionRed]

In the past when someone struggled to make ends meet they were considered financially poor.
In modern times when someone struggles to make ends meet they are considered financially poor.

Now they may not be able to make ends meet because they 1) drink heavily, 2) they gamble, 3) they take out huge loans which they struggle to pay back or 4) they may simply struggle because their lowly salary doesn't pay for necessities.

So tell us Jaxie, why don't you consider number 4 not poor. What makes them better off than the 60s or 70s poor?

[jet]

Isn't it weird what people think is poverty today? I can remember times when a jam sandwich was all there was for the days food and being so cold you felt like your toes were done for. :shrug:

Absolutely. THAT was poverty!

[jaxie]

Absolutely. THAT was poverty!

Its all perceived here you can see that. A mobile phone and coffee. :hehe:

[jet]

Its all perceived here you can see that. A mobile phone and coffee. :hehe:

...and bloody central heating! :fist:

[Marsh.]

Isn't it weird what people think is poverty today? I can remember times when a jam sandwich was all there was for the days food and being so cold you felt like your toes were done for. :shrug:
And if you go even further back there was no electricity. But that's not the point neither.

[jaxie]

And if you go even further back there was no electricity. But that's not the point neither.

Isn't it wonderful how much better off people are these days? Glad you agree.

[jet]

And if you go even further back there was no electricity. But that's not the point neither.

Yep, electricity, a wonderful invention! That is the point - all the advantages and things this generation have that others didn't in the past.

[Marsh.]

Isn't it wonderful how much better off people are these days? Glad you agree.
In some ways? Yes it is. Compared to Victorian times? Yes it is. Compared to third world to? Yes it is.

Is it perfect? No. Is there still poverty and suffering right here in the UK? Yes.

So comparing it to a bygone era doesn't really help nor bear much relevance. We're talking about now. The things people put up with right now in 2018 is ridiculous since times have changed so much. That is the point.

[Marsh.]

Yep, electricity, a wonderful invention! That is the point - all the advantages and things this generation have that others didn't in the past.
Yes. But that's not got much to do with what's lacking today.

That was back then. This is now.

[Cherie]

In some ways? Yes it is. Compared to Victorian times? Yes it is. Compared to third world to? Yes it is.

Is it perfect? No. Is there still poverty and suffering right here in the UK? Yes.

So comparing it to a bygone era doesn't really help nor bear much relevance. We're talking about now. The things people put up with right now in 2018 is ridiculous since times have changed so much. That is the point.


Here's a viewpoint from a Kosovan immigrant, she has been in this country 12 years, she couldn't believe it when she recently went to an open evening for secondary school with her son that there was a frog in the science room ready for dissection just or the open evening, her sister in Kosovo who was training to be a doctor had to go to a lake to find a frog to dissect as part of her training just a few years ago :skull:....she thinks people in the UK are very spoiled and get far too much handed to them that is her view of the UK and I am sure of many ...

[jet]

In some ways? Yes it is. Compared to Victorian times? Yes it is. Compared to third world to? Yes it is.

Is it perfect? No. Is there still poverty and suffering right here in the UK? Yes.

So comparing it to a bygone era doesn't really help nor bear much relevance. We're talking about now. The things people put up with right now in 2018 is ridiculous since times have changed so much. That is the point.

Yep, the same was said back in the 60's/70's and 80's too and no doubt the generation before that...only we didn't moan half as much.

[Cherie]

Yep, the same was said back in the 60's/70's and 80's too and no doubt the generation before that...only we didn't moan half as much.

:omgno: stop prodding the beast

[jet]

[/B]

:omgno: stop prodding the beast

I did that. :omgno:
:hehe:

[Tom4784]

The Poverty line adjusts to the times, It's rather silly to compare what was considered poverty back in times of old and try to suggest that people aren't living in poverty these days in comparison.

A lot of people live on or under the poverty line, that's an indisputable fact, poverty is still a massive problem.

[user104658]

This thread amounts to little more than "Well let me tell you sonny, in my day..."

Cold hard facts time: it's not "your day" any more, just like "your day" wasn't a Victorian workhouse, and just like the victorian work house wasn't hunting wild game with sharpened sticks.

Relative poverty is relative poverty, and just because (you believe) you "had it rly hard back then and these young uns don't know they're born!" does not mean that anyone living in relative poverty today has it GOOD.

No, you didn't have central heating in every house me "back then". Do you know what else you didn't have? People getting themselves into huge amounts of unsecured personal debt in order to pay their rent and not lose their home, central heated or otherwise. And then you also didn't have interconnected, computerised credit files attached to that debt. "Back I the day" you could live in relative poverty and then find yourself on the up, with a fresh slate, at any time. Today's working poor have creditors banging down the door, interest payments and fines mounting day on day, and an electronic record of all of this that makes it a very real possibility that they will never, ever be able to escape that cycle and there is no such thing as a fresh slate.

You didn't have the same sort of benefits system - but you also didn't live in an economy where wages don't even cover a month's rent on their own, never mind a jam sandwich on top of that.

No one is saying that people have ever "had it easy" but honestly... Stop trying to pretend that having to "make your way" 40 years ago means that you have any idea, at all, of the issues that face people on low incomes today. I'm sure it's very easy to see modern luxuries and think "Oh lol they don't know wot poor means!" and laugh your little socks off, while kids in their 20's are literally killing themselves because they've found themselves under a mountain of debt that will follow them until the day they die.

Thats what you're missing here. You didn't "moan as much" back then because for most people, if not everyone, knuckling down and working your way out was a realistic possibility. Young people today are completely lacking in any sort of hope or optimism, a horrendous existence for anyone, and do people recognise that this is a huge and tragic problem? No, the young find themselves just like in this thread, laughed at and belittled by older generations who see themselves as being somehow stronger and more resilient. Who not only lack understanding, but have a stubborn and smug avoidance of any understanding. Who look at a depressed, hopeless young person and can only see all of their modern conveniences and think "lol pathetic!" instead of "how can we help young people to have hope and ambition again?"

But by all means continue to pat yourselves on the back, for what, I'm not quite sure. It's hugely beneficial to society. Rly.

[Marsh.]

Yep, the same was said back in the 60's/70's and 80's too and no doubt the generation before that...only we didn't moan half as much.
No moaning. Yeah.

The words rose and tinted spring to mind.

[user104658]

No moaning. Yeah.

The words rose and tinted spring to mind.Indeed. If the "older generations didn't moan much back in the day!" I have to seriously question what's changed since then... Because a lot of them don't half enjoy moaning about absolutely anything and everything today.

[AnnieK]

Every generation blames previous generations for their ills and problems. Doesn't solve anything. We need solutions for the here and now....getting people off the poverty line and back into properly paid employment. There is no quick fix for it and I honestly wouldn't have a clue about how to even begin to think about starting to sort it. If we all stop blaming the young or the old for the current situation and start finding ways to fix it we might all find ourselves in a better situation

[Marsh.]

[/B]

Here's a viewpoint from a Kosovan immigrant, she has been in this country 12 years, she couldn't believe it when she recently went to an open evening for secondary school with her son that there was a frog in the science room ready for dissection just or the open evening, her sister in Kosovo who was training to be a doctor had to go to a lake to find a frog to dissect as part of her training just a few years ago :skull:....she thinks people in the UK are very spoiled and get far too much handed to them that is her view of the UK and I am sure of many ...
Erm... you missed the part of my post, which listed the UK in 2018 "better off" in comparison to some other countries.

But, again, the point you missed. What relevance does it have?

Would you tell a homeless person in 2018 UK "Hey, at least it's not a warzone like Syria eh, pal!" No. You wouldn't. Because it's not relevant.

"There's always someone worse off" is a phrase and it's mostly true. But that doesn't mean that the problems are no longer problems. It's shifting the focus to something else.

[Cherie]

Indeed. If the "older generations didn't moan much back in the day!" I have to seriously question what's changed since then... Because a lot of them don't half enjoy moaning about absolutely anything and everything today.

I'm about 14 years older than you...:hehe: and DR would be about the same, so be careful who you are dissing :hee:

[Brillopad]

Indeed. If the "older generations didn't moan much back in the day!" I have to seriously question what's changed since then... Because a lot of them don't half enjoy moaning about absolutely anything and everything today.

Only after having to listen to many of the younger generation continually telling us all how hard done by they are and how it is everyone’s fault but theirs. Many people simply don’t buy it.

Just young labour’s attempt to politicize their ‘issues’ - effectively a young Labour party political broadcast.

[DemolitionRed]

I'm about 14 years older than you...:hehe: and DR would be about the same, so be careful who you are dissing :hee:

I think its obvious he was dissing you, not me :smug:

[Cherie]

I think its obvious he was dissing you, not me :smug:

Sorry luv you were being lumped in a generalisation

[DemolitionRed]

Sorry luv you were being lumped in a generalisation

He said 'a lot' not 'all'

[Marsh.]

Only after having to listen to many of the younger generation continually telling us all how hard done by they are and how it is everyone’s fault but theirs. Many people simply don’t buy it.

Just young labour’s attempt to politicize their ‘issues’ - effectively a young Labour party political broadcast.
Better a young Labour focussed on now rather than romanticising the past.

[Brillopad]

Better a young Labour focussed on now rather than romanticising the past.

Now will be the past tomorrow. Now is fleeting.

[Marsh.]

Now will be the past tomorrow. Now is fleeting.
Yes. So best to focus on issues we can affect right now and whats actually happening now as opposed to saying "well people enjoyed bread and jam in the 70s".

It would be funny if it wasn't actually serious.

[jaxie]

This thread amounts to little more than "Well let me tell you sonny, in my day..."

Cold hard facts time: it's not "your day" any more, just like "your day" wasn't a Victorian workhouse, and just like the victorian work house wasn't hunting wild game with sharpened sticks.

Relative poverty is relative poverty, and just because (you believe) you "had it rly hard back then and these young uns don't know they're born!" does not mean that anyone living in relative poverty today has it GOOD.

No, you didn't have central heating in every house me "back then". Do you know what else you didn't have? People getting themselves into huge amounts of unsecured personal debt in order to pay their rent and not lose their home, central heated or otherwise. And then you also didn't have interconnected, computerised credit files attached to that debt. "Back I the day" you could live in relative poverty and then find yourself on the up, with a fresh slate, at any time. Today's working poor have creditors banging down the door, interest payments and fines mounting day on day, and an electronic record of all of this that makes it a very real possibility that they will never, ever be able to escape that cycle and there is no such thing as a fresh slate.

You didn't have the same sort of benefits system - but you also didn't live in an economy where wages don't even cover a month's rent on their own, never mind a jam sandwich on top of that.

No one is saying that people have ever "had it easy" but honestly... Stop trying to pretend that having to "make your way" 40 years ago means that you have any idea, at all, of the issues that face people on low incomes today. I'm sure it's very easy to see modern luxuries and think "Oh lol they don't know wot poor means!" and laugh your little socks off, while kids in their 20's are literally killing themselves because they've found themselves under a mountain of debt that will follow them until the day they die.

Thats what you're missing here. You didn't "moan as much" back then because for most people, if not everyone, knuckling down and working your way out was a realistic possibility. Young people today are completely lacking in any sort of hope or optimism, a horrendous existence for anyone, and do people recognise that this is a huge and tragic problem? No, the young find themselves just like in this thread, laughed at and belittled by older generations who see themselves as being somehow stronger and more resilient. Who not only lack understanding, but have a stubborn and smug avoidance of any understanding. Who look at a depressed, hopeless young person and can only see all of their modern conveniences and think "lol pathetic!" instead of "how can we help young people to have hope and ambition again?"

But by all means continue to pat yourselves on the back, for what, I'm not quite sure. It's hugely beneficial to society. Rly.

Just exactly how long ago do you think we are talking about TS? :hehe:

[Kizzy]

[/B]

:omgno: stop prodding the beast

Too late....

[Marsh.]

Not Cherie laying bait and catching someone?

[Kizzy]

Not Cherie laying bait and catching someone?

http://33.media.tumblr.com/d7d20442c6f4211bdaa004bd66dded0d/tumblr_nw66pmRqiZ1r98xw9o6_r1_250.gif

[jet]

This thread amounts to little more than "Well let me tell you sonny, in my day..."

Cold hard facts time: it's not "your day" any more, just like "your day" wasn't a Victorian workhouse, and just like the victorian work house wasn't hunting wild game with sharpened sticks.

Relative poverty is relative poverty, and just because (you believe) you "had it rly hard back then and these young uns don't know they're born!" does not mean that anyone living in relative poverty today has it GOOD.

No, you didn't have central heating in every house me "back then". Do you know what else you didn't have? People getting themselves into huge amounts of unsecured personal debt in order to pay their rent and not lose their home, central heated or otherwise. And then you also didn't have interconnected, computerised credit files attached to that debt. "Back I the day" you could live in relative poverty and then find yourself on the up, with a fresh slate, at any time. Today's working poor have creditors banging down the door, interest payments and fines mounting day on day, and an electronic record of all of this that makes it a very real possibility that they will never, ever be able to escape that cycle and there is no such thing as a fresh slate.

You didn't have the same sort of benefits system - but you also didn't live in an economy where wages don't even cover a month's rent on their own, never mind a jam sandwich on top of that.

No one is saying that people have ever "had it easy" but honestly... Stop trying to pretend that having to "make your way" 40 years ago means that you have any idea, at all, of the issues that face people on low incomes today. I'm sure it's very easy to see modern luxuries and think "Oh lol they don't know wot poor means!" and laugh your little socks off, while kids in their 20's are literally killing themselves because they've found themselves under a mountain of debt that will follow them until the day they die.

Thats what you're missing here. You didn't "moan as much" back then because for most people, if not everyone, knuckling down and working your way out was a realistic possibility. Young people today are completely lacking in any sort of hope or optimism, a horrendous existence for anyone, and do people recognise that this is a huge and tragic problem? No, the young find themselves just like in this thread, laughed at and belittled by older generations who see themselves as being somehow stronger and more resilient. Who not only lack understanding, but have a stubborn and smug avoidance of any understanding. Who look at a depressed, hopeless young person and can only see all of their modern conveniences and think "lol pathetic!" instead of "how can we help young people to have hope and ambition again?"

But by all means continue to pat yourselves on the back, for what, I'm not quite sure. It's hugely beneficial to society. Rly.

Oh for goodness sake, stop this pity party. What age are you, TS? (That's not a sarcastic comment, I genuinely want to know). Many of us in our 50's have known more hardship and back breaking work and despair and poverty than the young ones of today can even imagine. Yes, they currently have it hard, but that doesn't mean you can denigrate the older generation who have also had it hard and know that you can come through it in the fullness of time.
It's not being smug to pass on our experiences, it's saying hope is there - we went through it, so can you. Your post smacks of hopelessness and bitterness and gives in to depressing pessimism and 'I'm owed this- ery and that -ery and why don't I have it'!! What message does that achieve? - lie down and die, it's hopelessness all round?
Well NO, it is not - not when I was young and not now! The future is all before you - with all its promises of better times down the line. Today does not define all your tomorrows.

I always find that the more optimistic you are, the more you realise what you already have and the more good luck finds you. It's worked for me.

[Tom4784]

Indeed. If the "older generations didn't moan much back in the day!" I have to seriously question what's changed since then... Because a lot of them don't half enjoy moaning about absolutely anything and everything today.

True, I can't count the amount of times I've been called down from the office to deal with some irate customer whining over something ultimately inconsequential and they are almost always older people. On Wednesday I literally had abuse from a woman because SHE missed a promotion and she wanted us to extend it just for her. Most of the time I get called down because an older person is having a tantrum over the fact that we haven't got something in stock, when you tell them you can order it in for them for the next day they screech it's not good enough, when you recommend that sell it, half the time you'll get abuse because they don't want to go anywhere else, they just expect you to pull what they want out of thin air.

I.ve seen bad customers of all ages and sizes but most customer complaints tend to come from people of older generations moaning about things no one can control. You can't say that people in older generations never moan about anything and they just got on with things because anyone that has ever worked in retail know differently.

The reality is that people have always complained about the present while romanticising the past. Nostalgia is dangerous when you use it to to push issues of the present under the rug.

[jet]

True, I can't count the amount of times I've been called down from the office to deal with some irate customer whining over something ultimately inconsequential and they are almost always older people. On Wednesday I literally had abuse from a woman because SHE missed a promotion and she wanted us to extend it just for her. Most of the time I get called down because an older person is having a tantrum over the fact that we haven't got something in stock, when you tell them you can order it in for them for the next day they screech it's not good enough, when you recommend that sell it, half the time you'll get abuse because they don't want to go anywhere else, they just expect you to pull what they want out of thin air.

I.ve seen bad customers of all ages and sizes but most customer complaints tend to come from people of older generations moaning about things no one can control. You can't say that people in older generations never moan about anything and they just got on with things because anyone that has ever worked in retail know differently.

The reality is that people have always complained about the present while romanticising the past. Nostalgia is dangerous when you use it to to push issues of the present under the rug.

You are off topic. This thread isn't about customer complaints.

[kirklancaster]

What I actually said was, the way to climb out of a depression and stagnation (created by the 2008 crisis not immigration) is by stimulating growth. After the world crash our national debt soured to 87% of GDP. After WW2 it stood at 243%. One of the first things Clement Attlee did was build the NHS.

A recession is not a time to start putting money in the piggy bank and making cuts that cripple future Growth. This isn't home economics, its a government that owes its debt to The Bank of England of which it owns. In other words, the £453 billion it borrowed to help pay off the debt was borrowed from itself and therefore could of been written off.

Instead it chose massive cuts on its nation and those cuts have created further economic stagnation.

:shrug::shrug::shrug::shrug: I have NOT referred to you or your posts in this thread???

[kirklancaster]

Its an odd thing. I said

Kirk then quoted me and said

which was an odd thing to say as it had absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

You then agree with him which means you either didn't read what I said or just want to tag team.

All you lot are trying to do is kill a debate with glib sarcasms that have nothing to do with what this thread is about.

:shrug::shrug::shrug::shrug: I have NOT quoted you on this thread?????

[kirklancaster]

There won't be any poor left in London once they've shipped them all out to make way for more gentrification, more hipsters, more wealthy people, more Russians... The East End used to have a culture all of its own but it's been destroyed bit by bit.

So TRUE Liv.

London is a 'FOREIGN COUNTRY to most people in the North and has been for a very long time.

Stanley Holloway, The 'Crazy Gang', Pearly Kings and Queens and The Lambeth Walk are but 'Museum Pieces', distant memories and the culture that spawned them is no more.

[Ammi]

...I don’t feel the younger generation of today, have anything easier...by definition of being younger they have yet to ‘achieve’ in terms of work and careers...there are specific things with each generation, which hadn’t applied so much to the generation before etc...so not easier, just different is all, I think...more younger people now have the opportunity of going to uni and achieving more academics...but the high price they’ve paid for that ‘priveledge’ is their debts before their working life has even started...and for many, sadly...any academic achievements won’t secure a higher earning job...there are many younger people who leave uni and have long periods of unemployment...or are presented with job opportunities...which would still have been presented had they not gone to uni and not incurred their debts...so there is a huge ‘deflation’ there for younger people of today...that their time in education feels ‘pointless’, which increases the ‘weight’ felt by the educutaupion debt...but with a lack of apprenticeships etc in the present day...the alternatives are not there so much...

...deteriating and poor mental health is increasing in younger people, so they definately don’t feel ‘priveledged’ in any way...many feel a sense of ‘hopelessness’...:sad:...for those who are not fortunate enough to be able to secure a job and an income...the benefit system of today is not as ‘easy’ as previous generations, I would say...younger people often spend more time living with parents because salaries often don’t increase and stay in line with inflation../...house prices etc...and when they are able to leave home to achieve independance...I think it’s more and more that younger people have to move great distances away from friends and family etc ...so they don’t have the ‘family unit’ support in the same way either...we do have great communication with technology etc in this day though...but it’s still hard for them ...suicide rates seem to be ever increasing with younger people...yeah problems and issues are just different in each younger generation... not better or worse, I don’t think...but the only ones we can address are the ones of today, to try and make the future feel less ‘hopeless’ to so many young people...’we survived’ as it were..:sad:...so it’s ensuring that our children do too....not just survive though, but grow and expand and progress also and feel a sense of worth and value...so that the next generation can be moaned at and etc, etc...

[Ammi]

..in terms of the ‘great depression’...was that not always predicted with a Brexit vote...by all who have financial knowledge in these things..?...it was always an inevitably, is what was always said...although the ‘depth’ would be unknown and not so easy to predict...how ‘great’ it would be...

[Brillopad]

Indeed. If the "older generations didn't moan much back in the day!" I have to seriously question what's changed since then... Because a lot of them don't half enjoy moaning about absolutely anything and everything today.

Careful TS you’re almost the older generation yourself in your mid-30s. 35 is official middle-age. The mid-life crisis can do funny things to people.

[DemolitionRed]

:shrug::shrug::shrug::shrug: I have NOT quoted you on this thread?????

My apologies. I've just re-read through the post and see it wasn't me.

[DemolitionRed]

...I don’t feel the younger generation of today, have anything easier...by definition of being younger they have yet to ‘achieve’ in terms of work and careers...there are specific things with each generation, which hadn’t applied so much to the generation before etc...so not easier, just different is all, I think...more younger people now have the opportunity of going to uni and achieving more academics...but the high price they’ve paid for that ‘priveledge’ is their debts before their working life has even started...and for many, sadly...any academic achievements won’t secure a higher earning job...there are many younger people who leave uni and have long periods of unemployment...or are presented with job opportunities...which would still have been presented had they not gone to uni and not incurred their debts...so there is a huge ‘deflation’ there for younger people of today...that their time in education feels ‘pointless’, which increases the ‘weight’ felt by the educutaupion debt...but with a lack of apprenticeships etc in the present day...the alternatives are not there so much...

...deteriating and poor mental health is increasing in younger people, so they definately don’t feel ‘priveledged’ in any way...many feel a sense of ‘hopelessness’...:sad:...for those who are not fortunate enough to be able to secure a job and an income...the benefit system of today is not as ‘easy’ as previous generations, I would say...younger people often spend more time living with parents because salaries often don’t increase and stay in line with inflation../...house prices etc...and when they are able to leave home to achieve independance...I think it’s more and more that younger people have to move great distances away from friends and family etc ...so they don’t have the ‘family unit’ support in the same way either...we do have great communication with technology etc in this day though...but it’s still hard for them ...suicide rates seem to be ever increasing with younger people...yeah problems and issues are just different in each younger generation... not better or worse, I don’t think...but the only ones we can address are the ones of today, to try and make the future feel less ‘hopeless’ to so many young people...’we survived’ as it were..:sad:...so it’s ensuring that our children do too....not just survive though, but grow and expand and progress also and feel a sense of worth and value...so that the next generation can be moaned at and etc, etc...

Both you and TS have made some very realistic posts.

Thank you both.

[DemolitionRed]

..in terms of the ‘great depression’...was that not always predicted with a Brexit vote...by all who have financial knowledge in these things..?...it was always an inevitably, is what was always said...although the ‘depth’ would be unknown and not so easy to predict...how ‘great’ it would be...

Austerity has created stagnation. Its nearly a decade since the collapse of the banks and we are on the brink of them collapsing again because austerity has allowed those rescued banks to continue (in tenfold) with the cause and effect of the last crash. Meanwhile we, because of he pull on austerity, have seen little stable growth compared to pre-crash norms. This means as we head towards Brexit we, as a country, are in a weak position.

We've had the slowest recovery from recession for over a hundred years and Brexit may be the thing that pushes us over a cliff.

[Cherie]

Austerity has created stagnation. Its nearly a decade since the collapse of the banks and we are on the brink of them collapsing again because austerity has allowed those rescued banks to continue (in tenfold) with the cause and effect of the last crash. Meanwhile we, because of he pull on austerity, have seen little stable growth compared to pre-crash norms. This means as we head towards Brexit we, as a country, are in a weak position.

We've had the slowest recovery from recession for over a hundred years and Brexit may be the thing that pushes us over a cliff.

Didn't you vote out though :think:

[jaxie]

Oh for goodness sake, stop this pity party. What age are you, TS? (That's not a sarcastic comment, I genuinely want to know). Many of us in our 50's have known more hardship and back breaking work and despair and poverty than the young ones of today can even imagine. Yes, they currently have it hard, but that doesn't mean you can denigrate the older generation who have also had it hard and know that you can come through it in the fullness of time.
It's not being smug to pass on our experiences, it's saying hope is there - we went through it, so can you. Your post smacks of hopelessness and bitterness and gives in to depressing pessimism and 'I'm owed this- ery and that -ery and why don't I have it'!! What message does that achieve? - lie down and die, it's hopelessness all round?
Well NO, it is not - not when I was young and not now! The future is all before you - with all its promises of better times down the line. Today does not define all your tomorrows.

I always find that the more optimistic you are, the more you realise what you already have and the more good luck finds you. It's worked for me.

Fantastic post Jet. :clap1:

[DemolitionRed]

Didn't you vote out though :think:

Yes I did and it was short sighted.

When I voted out, I desperately wanted to disable the TTIP because the thought of that really frightens me. It was disabled but now May's come up with something similar just for us, which is equally frightening. :(

[Brillopad]

Fantastic post Jet. :clap1:

I second that. Jet has a way of getting to the point with absolute clarity. I very much enjoy reading his posts. :thumbs:

[Tom4784]

You are off topic. This thread isn't about customer complaints.


I was replying to TS' point that, unlike what's been said by others, moaning is not exclusive to younger generations. My post is on topic.:hee:

[Beso]

This thread amounts to little more than "Well let me tell you sonny, in my day..."

Cold hard facts time: it's not "your day" any more, just like "your day" wasn't a Victorian workhouse, and just like the victorian work house wasn't hunting wild game with sharpened sticks.

Relative poverty is relative poverty, and just because (you believe) you "had it rly hard back then and these young uns don't know they're born!" does not mean that anyone living in relative poverty today has it GOOD.

No, you didn't have central heating in every house me "back then". Do you know what else you didn't have? People getting themselves into huge amounts of unsecured personal debt in order to pay their rent and not lose their home, central heated or otherwise. And then you also didn't have interconnected, computerised credit files attached to that debt. "Back I the day" you could live in relative poverty and then find yourself on the up, with a fresh slate, at any time. Today's working poor have creditors banging down the door, interest payments and fines mounting day on day, and an electronic record of all of this that makes it a very real possibility that they will never, ever be able to escape that cycle and there is no such thing as a fresh slate.

You didn't have the same sort of benefits system - but you also didn't live in an economy where wages don't even cover a month's rent on their own, never mind a jam sandwich on top of that.

No one is saying that people have ever "had it easy" but honestly... Stop trying to pretend that having to "make your way" 40 years ago means that you have any idea, at all, of the issues that face people on low incomes today. I'm sure it's very easy to see modern luxuries and think "Oh lol they don't know wot poor means!" and laugh your little socks off, while kids in their 20's are literally killing themselves because they've found themselves under a mountain of debt that will follow them until the day they die.

Thats what you're missing here. You didn't "moan as much" back then because for most people, if not everyone, knuckling down and working your way out was a realistic possibility. Young people today are completely lacking in any sort of hope or optimism, a horrendous existence for anyone, and do people recognise that this is a huge and tragic problem? No, the young find themselves just like in this thread, laughed at and belittled by older generations who see themselves as being somehow stronger and more resilient. Who not only lack understanding, but have a stubborn and smug avoidance of any understanding. Who look at a depressed, hopeless young person and can only see all of their modern conveniences and think "lol pathetic!" instead of "how can we help young people to have hope and ambition again?"

But by all means continue to pat yourselves on the back, for what, I'm not quite sure. It's hugely beneficial to society. Rly.

Ive said that...but hey i was unemployed or unemployable in the 80s..living on 40 pound a week...i sat hungry and shivering daily...

Now im no better than minimum wage yet here i am on a train coming back from my 2nd trip to scotland this year..i will be popping the heating on this evening, and will probably have a beer...its all down to not feeling like i need to have this or have that..for me anyway.

[Kizzy]

Ive said that...but hey i was unemployed or unemployable in the 80s..living on 40 pound a week...i sat hungry and shivering daily...

Now im no better than minimum wage yet here i am on a train coming back from my 2nd trip to scotland this year..i will be popping the heating on this evening, and will probably have a beer...its all down to not feeling like i need to have this or have that..for me anyway.

Well your alright jack, no need to worry then.

[Beso]

Well your alright jack, no need to worry then.

Imo there wouldnt be anything to worry about if everyone lived within thier own meens.


Ie, not moving from another country all the way to london if you havnt got a life sorted...or taking crack and chuffing fags whilst you wait on the phone to get your latest loan from the dole to pay for drink n drugs..or as some put it..a new washing machine
.

Ps, maybe ask me how i manage to be ok jack, rather than the belittling pish.

[Kizzy]

Imo there wouldnt be anything to worry about if everyone lived within thier own meens.


Ie, not moving from another country all the way to london if you havnt got a life sorted...or taking crack and chuffing fags whilst you wait on the phone to get your latest loan from the dole to pay for drink n drugs..or as some put it..a new washing machine
.

Ps, maybe ask me how i manage to be ok jack, rather than the belittling pish.

What if you are born there and grew up in poverty? Got a job as a cleaner, maybe you aren't that bright and working up ladders isn't an option?
My argument was what of those people...

How easy was it for you to find a place to live then, you are just not being objective enough. As you said you were feckless when you were young, that isn't an option now, if your feckless there's no safety net to cradle you till you get your **** together like you did.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

That said that has nothing to do with the topic which is austerity, the cost of living and cuts that is unprecedented in modern times.

[DemolitionRed]

Imo there wouldnt be anything to worry about if everyone lived within thier own meens.


Ie, not moving from another country all the way to london if you havnt got a life sorted...or taking crack and chuffing fags whilst you wait on the phone to get your latest loan from the dole to pay for drink n drugs..or as some put it..a new washing machine
.

Ps, maybe ask me how i manage to be ok jack, rather than the belittling pish.

So you want to make this about immigrants... thought you might!

[Beso]

So you want to make this about immigrants... thought you might!

Maybe quote that bit next time then....but yes i firmly believe that the huge influx of immigrants into this country is the one, and ONLY reason this country has started to struggle...

But you probably thought i might have said that..
Just like i think a lot about you, but i tend to keep it to myself cause im not a rude person.

[Crimson Dynamo]

So all public services are "on there knees" and now the "great depression" is coming?


oh and the roads are full of potholes..

time to look out the tin hat

[Kizzy]

So all public services are "on there knees" and now the "great depression" is coming?


oh and the roads are full of potholes..

time to look out the tin hat

Mock all you like.