JK Rowling likes transphobic tweet

[Greg!]

JK Rowling has come under fire from her fans after she appeared to 'like' a tweet which referred to transgender women as 'men in dresses'.

The tweet was posted during a row about the status of transgender women in the Labour party.



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5538421/Furious-Harry-Potter-fans-accuse-J-K-Rowling-transphobia.html

She's such a disappointment. And I don't buy her claim that it was an accident.

[MB.]

Well I suppose that's one way for her to take the attention away from her endorsing a perpetrator of domestic violence

[Marsh.]

People need to look a little deeper. Twitter doesn't allow that so you get ridiculous overreactions like this.

[Greg!]

976507192202481664

Oh what a coincidence that she's "accidentally" done this before.

[Marsh.]

Well I suppose that's one way for her to take the attention away from her endorsing a perpetrator of domestic violence

You mean the domestic violence that police found no evidence of, he's never been charged for, the accusations the other party withdrew and engaged in a joint statement after getting the payout she was more concerned with?

[Marsh.]

976507192202481664

Oh what a coincidence that she's "accidentally" done this before.

There's nothing transphobic about that though?

[Marsh.]

I regret posting now, I see a repeat of the thread we had here only a few days ago. :joker:

[Oliver_W]

If I were feeling charitable, I'd say she skimread the tweet, and was liking it to show support to the MP(?) who said she got yelled out when she was 18 and asked for a page three calendar to be taken down, and the accident was missing the "men in dresses" bit.

[Marsh.]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/03/23/23/4A7E779800000578-0-image-a-56_1521848103267.jpg

Yes, aggressively ordering someone to do what you want is definitely the way to go about it.

[Marsh.]

"she's written books about people turning into cats and dead people, but trans folk are beyond all comprehension?"

Where do they find these brainless idiots????

[MB.]

You mean the domestic violence that police found no evidence of, he's never been charged for, the accusations the other party withdrew and engaged in a joint statement after getting the payout she was more concerned with?

No, I mean the domestic violence that his own managers filed written evidence of in court and that is referred to when it states in their joint statement that she made no false claims for financial gain

[Marsh.]

No, I mean the domestic violence that his own managers filed written evidence of in court and that is referred to when it states in their joint statement that she made no false claims for financial gain

"Written evidence" being her word and hers alone.

[MB.]

"Written evidence" being her word and hers alone.

The written evidence was written and filed by his former managers, as I said in my post

[Marsh.]

Such strong evidence it led to zero convictions.

But, regarding the Depp scandal, it amazed me the people who spoke out against that (in the public eye) and yet would fawn over your Meryl Streeps and your Woody Allens.

[MB.]

And the fact that it was setted doesn't automatically imply innocence either

Also mmm that Meryl Streep sure is one of Hollywood's greatest monsters, she must be brought to justice

[Marsh.]

And the fact that it was setted doesn't automatically imply innocence either

No, but innocent until proven guilty seemed to get forgotten in the little witch hunt that followed him.


Also mmm that Meryl Streep sure is one of Hollywood's greatest monsters, she must be brought to justice

I was referring to her being such an open supporter of the recent Time's Up and Me Too movements whilst simultaneously being a supporter of Roman Polanski, the child rapist.

[Maru]

What is it about social media that makes people go out of their way to check other people's likes & other activities for what their political affiliations are? I'm starting to think the connecting with other people concept is a bit of a scam, that what it often does is enable people to stalk & harass each other... tbh, TiBB has gotten like that too. There never used to be this fixation on accosting folk for not agreeing with each other on their particular views... I remember when there was the interacting and getting to know each other and stuff... now it's I need to know them so I can determine if they're my enemy or not.

[Marsh.]

What is it about social media that makes people go out of their way to check other people's likes & other activities for what their political affiliations are? I'm starting to think the connecting with other people concept is a bit of a scam, that what it often does is enable people to stalk & harass each other... tbh, TiBB has gotten like that too. There never used to be this fixation on accosting folk for not agreeing with each other on their particular views... I remember when there was the interacting and getting to know each other and stuff... now it's I need to know them so I can determine if they're my enemy or not.

It is dangerous. It's like agreeing with one poster on one topic spilling into another where you're accused of agreeing with everything that poster says/believes and people automatically assigning their opinions to you.

[MB.]

What is it about social media that makes people go out of their way to check other people's likes & other activities for what their political affiliations are? I'm starting to think the connecting with other people concept is a bit of a scam, that what it often does is enable people to stalk & harass each other... tbh, TiBB has gotten like that too. There never used to be this fixation on accosting folk for not agreeing with each other on their particular views... I remember when there was the interacting and getting to know each other and stuff... now it's I need to know them so I can determine if they're my enemy or not.

I'd say there's a difference between forum members and someone like JK Rowling, who has over 14 million Twitter followers and as such creates 'news' with every tweet she writes, retweets or likes... she's entitled to have her own opinions, write about them and like tweets about them, but once they're out in the open, there's a certain responsibility there that most of us don't carry

[Marsh.]

Also dangerous that within the click of a button, no actual words of her own people are assigning all manner of opinions as hers without her doing anything. :joker: Twitter is insane.

[Maru]

It is dangerous. It's like agreeing with one poster on one topic spilling into another where you're accused of agreeing with everything that poster says/believes and people automatically assigning their opinions to you.

Yeah... I find it pretty disturbing actually. That someone would monitor and put so much emotional effort into analyzing someones particular views and motives... Twitter is the absolute worst for enabling these stalker types. Thankfully I can just deregister from there without it affecting my work... there's just something not right about the way people are carrying on on these sites.

[Maru]

I'd say there's a difference between forum members and someone like JK Rowling, who has over 14 million Twitter followers and as such creates 'news' with every tweet she writes, retweets or likes... she's entitled to have her own opinions, write about them and like tweets about them, but once they're out in the open, there's a certain responsibility there that most of us don't carry

She's a fiction writer though, not a legislator.

[Tom4784]

It sounds to me like the original tweet was probably referring to that labour mess where a trans person who hadn't go through the transition was made Women's officer which is quite ridiculous. Post op, I could understand that calling them a man in a dress is transphobic but if you haven't started transitioning then the term 'man in a dress' is quite....well....factual?

The trans community is cannabilising itself by attacking anyone and everyone that makes a mistake or says something ignorant whether or not the ignorance is innocent or not, people are just gonna push back against trans rights and such if it continues. People like the journalist quoted above by Marsh need to realise that you don't win hearts and minds by attacking people until they do what you say. Gay rights have come as far as they have, not through the gays attacking anyone and everyone but through education and understanding over the generations. in most countries where gay rights have been written into law, it wouldn't have been enough for just the gays to demand it, it's the allies that have helped push Gay Rights acts into law. Allies are vital and you don't create allies and dispel ignorance by screaming at people to do what you say.

[MB.]

Liked tweets can appear on the timelines of JK's followers, there's no 'stalking' involved

[MB.]

She's a fiction writer though, not a legislator.

But regardless, she's still a high profile media figure who would use a platform like Twitter with that in mind... I can't imagine she wouldn't be conscious of the fact that anything she likes/retweets would be construed as an endorsement/reflection of her views, and when something relatively controversial slips through the net, then there would have almost definitely been a reason behind that

[Maru]

Liked tweets can appear on the timelines of JK's followers, there's no 'stalking' involved

But regardless, she's still a high profile media figure who would use a platform like Twitter with that in mind... I can't imagine she wouldn't be conscious of the fact that anything she likes/retweets would be construed as an endorsement/reflection of her views, and when something relatively controversial slips through the net, then there would have almost definitely been a reason behind that

I'm not going to argue with your opinion. It is your opinion. However, I feel that this is a dangerous reflection of society when we can't have a simple disagreement on things without members of society resorting to mob mentality.

Liked tweets do appear in the feed, but it doesn't always start there. A lot of times it's a retweet and then someone jumps on board with the harassment campaign... and it is absolutely stalking when folk who are energized in this respect go out of their way to comb all media for occurrences of "injustices" in order to begin these campaigns... I often read threads below tweets and a lot of times, it's this type of tit for tat in every single comment and then those turn into stalking where those members go and check those commenter's profiles and go "Hey you like X... you must like X...", etc... I find that to be obsessive... it can't be just comments on the subject itself, it has to be on each other on the personal basis.

[MB.]

Yeah, there's definitely a line that can be, and has been, crossed many times in that respect, I agree... I think it's just, unfortunately, part and parcel of being so high profile, though, as if your personal opinions (or the public's perception of what your personal opinions are, based on the little they can get) automatically become public and subject to whatever scrutiny social media is able to throw at them

[MB.]

That said, the sooner she stops retroactively rewriting the Harry Potter books, the better

[Maru]

Yeah, there's definitely a line that can be, and has been, crossed many times in that respect, I agree... I think it's just, unfortunately, part and parcel of being so high profile, though, as if your personal opinions (or the public's perception of what your personal opinions are, based on the little they can get) automatically become public and subject to whatever scrutiny social media is able to throw at them

I agree. It's a little ironic we're having this discussion on a Big Brother website of all places. It's not like it's fans are angels and to a degree the show is literally about stalking our faves :laugh:... and celebrity does attract the obsessive/stalking types. Short version, I do feel like social media, Twitter particularly, has crafted their recipes from these overly-obsessive types. That instead of connecting all kinds of people, we're being encouraged to be little brands for ourselves and create bubbles around ourselves filled with like-minded folk... and inevitably that does engage the more ideologically obsessive personalities who take over and translate that sort of "fervor" for one's "crew" to fanaticism...

I remember watching Trump fuel his base on the idea of his presidential campaign many years ago and he had an energized cache of followers even then... never thought he'd even run, much less win, and yet here we are... so I understand why a celebrity who sees that energy feels they have to develop a sort of defensive strategy against it, with fear it may actually destroy careers instead of help make them.

[y.winter]

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/NeatGiddyBlackmamba-size_restricted.gif

@ another trans drama :worry:

[Withano]

I think, unlike racism and homophobia, theres a lack of understanding as to what constitutes as transphobia. People seem to be unintentionally transphobic far more often than any ism or phobia before.

[kirklancaster]

This entire subject is becoming 'All Too Much' apart from tedious - in my opinion.

[AnnieK]

I think, unlike racism and homophobia, theres a lack of understanding as to what constitutes as transphobia. People seem to be unintentionally transphobic far more often than any ism or phobia before.

That is because to a lot of.people this is a fairly new ism as its only recently come to the fore of the media etc. I completely agree with Dezzy that there appears to be a lot of anger in the trans community and that is having a negative impact at the moment. Shouting loudest doesn't mean you get heard. Educating people is the key, not vilifying. Transphobia will soon become as abhorrent to most as racism and homophobia if people are educated and understand. Being attacked for what are sometimes quite unintentional comments will only cause further alienation imo

[Withano]

That is because to a lot of.people this is a fairly new ism as its only recently come to the fore of the media etc. I completely agree with Dezzy that there appears to be a lot of anger in the trans community and that is having a negative impact at the moment. Shouting loudest doesn't mean you get heard. Educating people is the key, not vilifying. Transphobia will soon become as abhorrent to most as racism and homophobia if people are educated and understand. Being attacked for what are sometimes quite unintentional comments will only cause further alienation imo

Yeh I agree, I just dont think its entirely the same situation. Most people that needed the education back then were happily racist/homophobic because they didnt want to be their equal, nowadays people are unapologetically transphobic because they dont see how theyre treating them unequally.

(Making huge generalisations, obvs this doesnt apply to everybody).

Conversations seem to go
Thats transphobic
No its not, im not transphobic
Ok but thats transphobic language
No it isnt

Instead of
Thats racist
Yeah.. so?

Its much easier to educate the latter imo, you can educate stupid, but how do you educate stubborn?

[Crimson Dynamo]

i will never buy another one of Harry Potters books in protest of this outrage

[Vicky.]

976507192202481664

Oh what a coincidence that she's "accidentally" done this before.

There is nothing transphobic at all in that one, not even something that could possibly come across as transphobic.
It sounds to me like the original tweet was probably referring to that labour mess where a trans person who hadn't go through the transition was made Women's officer which is quite ridiculous. Post op, I could understand that calling them a man in a dress is transphobic but if you haven't started transitioning then the term 'man in a dress' is quite....well....factual?

The trans community is cannabilising itself by attacking anyone and everyone that makes a mistake or says something ignorant whether or not the ignorance is innocent or not, people are just gonna push back against trans rights and such if it continues. People like the journalist quoted above by Marsh need to realise that you don't win hearts and minds by attacking people until they do what you say. Gay rights have come as far as they have, not through the gays attacking anyone and everyone but through education and understanding over the generations. in most countries where gay rights have been written into law, it wouldn't have been enough for just the gays to demand it, it's the allies that have helped push Gay Rights acts into law. Allies are vital and you don't create allies and dispel ignorance by screaming at people to do what you say.
Well said.

[Brillopad]

976507192202481664

Oh what a coincidence that she's "accidentally" done this before.

She made a perfectly valid point. Criticism of it sounds intensely sexist to me.

[Brillopad]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/03/23/23/4A7E779800000578-0-image-a-56_1521848103267.jpg

Yes, aggressively ordering someone to do what you want is definitely the way to go about it.

Ms Gwendoline Smith sounds very controlling with a hint of ‘I dare you’ in that message - almost menacing. Dare I say it - what a hypocrite.

[Crimson Dynamo]

and no trans dementors in her books?

a little too convenient in my book

vile hate filled woman

:bored:

[Brillopad]

That is because to a lot of.people this is a fairly new ism as its only recently come to the fore of the media etc. I completely agree with Dezzy that there appears to be a lot of anger in the trans community and that is having a negative impact at the moment. Shouting loudest doesn't mean you get heard. Educating people is the key, not vilifying. Transphobia will soon become as abhorrent to most as racism and homophobia if people are educated and understand. Being attacked for what are sometimes quite unintentional comments will only cause further alienation imo

As long as this total nonsence about non-transitioned men using female-only places is put to bed once and for all. Women will never accept that blatant double-standard.

[jaxie]

The internet likes to get bent out of shape over trivia. This seems one of those occasions. There could be any number of reasons why she liked the tweet, including accidental clicks and I've accidentally clicked something on Facebook before so I know it happens.

[Mystic Mock]

Yeah... I find it pretty disturbing actually. That someone would monitor and put so much emotional effort into analyzing someones particular views and motives... Twitter is the absolute worst for enabling these stalker types. Thankfully I can just deregister from there without it affecting my work... there's just something not right about the way people are carrying on on these sites.

The problem for JK Rowling is that Celebrities do get stalked alot on the Internet and she knows this that's why she should be careful on what she likes on Social Media as rightly or wrongly, if she holds a controversial opinion it could be a career killer.

I agree with you that alot of people do get too emotionally invested on sites like Twitter and Facebook etc, but JK Rowling and other Celebrities shouldn't be giving these kinds of people ammunition.

[jaxie]

Ms Gwendoline Smith sounds very controlling with a hint of ‘I dare you’ in that message - almost menacing. Dare I say it - what a hypocrite.

If the passive aggressive in the tweet is a journalist she could start with learning to spell hear correctly.

[kirklancaster]

If the passive aggressive in the tweet is a journalist she could start with learning to spell hear correctly.

:laugh: I noticed that too Jaxie.

[Tom4784]

I think, unlike racism and homophobia, theres a lack of understanding as to what constitutes as transphobia. People seem to be unintentionally transphobic far more often than any ism or phobia before.

I think what the trans community really needs to understand is that ignorance does not always come from a place of malice. Going on the attack against people who simply aren't well versed on the subject will just likely turn potential allies against the cause. Helping people understand is how you win hearts and minds, ostracising them essentially just alienates them from the cause and gives ammunition to the people who are maliciously opposed to trans rights and people.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think what the trans community really needs to understand is that ignorance does not always come from a place of malice. Going on the attack against people who simply aren't well versed on the subject will just likely turn potential allies against the cause. Helping people understand is how you win hearts and minds, ostracising them essentially just alienates them from the cause and gives ammunition to the people who are maliciously opposed to trans rights and people.

id agree with that

[Brillopad]

id agree with that

On the whole I would agree - but referring to those that don’t as ignorant is not the way to go either. Disagreement is not necessarily either malice or ignorance.

[Ashley.]

976507192202481664

Oh what a coincidence that she's "accidentally" done this before.

I wouldn't want to undress next to a stranger with a penis either.

[Greg!]

Well tough beans hon gays have to do it all the time. Go in a private cubicle if it bothers you that much. And anyway, I doubt a pre-op trans woman who hates all of her male features is just going to casually have her dick flopping about for the world to see in a changing room, that is if she even has the courage to use the correct changing rooms for her gender identity, which usually doesn't happen until post-op.

[Brillopad]

I wouldn't want to undress next to a stranger with a penis either.

I don’t think most women would Ashley which seems to be the
Point that many simple aren’t getting- conveniently I might add.

Womens’’ rights to privacy and safety are clearly being eroded in an attempt to appease an increasingly hostile trans community - we are effectively being sacrificed against our will. It is not on!

[Tom4784]

On the whole I would agree - but referring to those that don’t as ignorant is not the way to go either. Disagreement is not necessarily either malice or ignorance.

Ignorant is not a bad word nor should it be considered as such when it's intent is innocent. Not knowing something about a subject simply does make you ignorant of it, I'm ignorant when it comes to, I dunno, building ****.

Somebody who is unaware of trans issues should not be demonised for making a genuine mistake, that's how you create malicious ignorance, people who don't want to learn because they prefer the idea that they have in their heads to the facts.

Lots of people are ignorant when it comes to trans issues, it's not a negative thing to say that. It's simply how it is and unfortunately attacks like the ones against people like J.K Rowling simply do not help the cause.

[Brillopad]

Well tough beans hon gays have to do it all the time. Go in a private cubicle if it bothers you that much. And anyway, I doubt a pre-op trans woman who hates all of her male features is just going to casually have her dick flopping about for the world to see in a changing room, that is if she even has the courage to use the correct changing rooms for her gender identity, which usually doesn't happen until post-op.

No tough beans for you then hon. You have missed the point entirely and women are not simply going to roll over on this.

[Withano]

She said she didnt mean to like the tweet

[Ashley.]

Well tough beans hon gays have to do it all the time. Go in a private cubicle if it bothers you that much. And anyway, I doubt a pre-op trans woman who hates all of her male features is just going to casually have her dick flopping about for the world to see in a changing room, that is if she even has the courage to use the correct changing rooms for her gender identity, which usually doesn't happen until post-op.

Yeah, "Tough beans" is the exact mentality that women have had to put up with for numerous years and denying us our privacy is just yet another step backwards.

[Greg!]

How is it denying your privacy. No one is forced to use a public changing room. The clue is in the name - public. And if a trans woman wants to use the correct room that is her right.

[Greg!]

I might feel uncomfortable if an old obese smelly wrinkly man was in the same changing room as me but I would just try and and use a private cubicle in future rather than constantly moaning and trying to ban old wrinkly men from changing rooms

[Brillopad]

Yeah, "Tough beans" is the exact mentality that women have had to put up with for numerous years and denying us our privacy is just yet another step backwards.

Exactly - it is a step backwards and we won’t have our rights sacrificed to suit others.

What planet are these people on that they either don’t see the issue for many women or they don’t give two hoots and think women will just have to put up and shut up. It’s so patronising.

Why would we shut up - we have right on our side!

[Brillopad]

I might feel uncomfortable if an old obese wrinkly man struts around changing room naked but I would just try and and use a private cubicle in future rather than constantly moaning and trying to ban old wrinkly men from changing rooms

Do you not get that any male predator can easily self-identify as a trans woman and gain access to female only areas - which puts women and girls at risk of physical harm. Women have rights too you know whether you like it or not.

Apart from that women also have a right to privacy whether you agree or not.

[Brillopad]

How is it denying your privacy. No one is forced to use a public changing room. The clue is in the name - public. And if a trans woman wants to use the correct room that is her right.

We are not talking about transitioned trans women but men claiming to be via self-identification with the obvious risks attached.

[Kizzy]

I might feel uncomfortable if an old obese smelly wrinkly man was in the same changing room as me but I would just try and and use a private cubicle in future rather than constantly moaning and trying to ban old wrinkly men from changing rooms

Why are your agephobic, sizephobic comments acceptable?

You can't crow about rights while making offensive remarks about the physical appearance of others.

[kirklancaster]

Why are your agephobic, sizephobic comments acceptable?

You can't crow about rights while making offensive remarks about the physical appearance of others.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Greg!]

Why are your agephobic, sizephobic comments acceptable?

You can't crow about rights while making offensive remarks about the physical appearance of others.

Old, obese, smelly and wrinkly are just adjectives. I would never personally slag someone off for being that (apart from maybe smelly as BO is absolutely disgusting - like have a wash)

[Ashley.]

How is it denying your privacy. No one is forced to use a public changing room. The clue is in the name - public. And if a trans woman wants to use the correct room that is her right.

And what will become of it, if any man is allowed to enter a woman-only space should they wake up in the morning and decide that they would like to identify as female?

[Denver]

Well tough beans hon gays have to do it all the time. Go in a private cubicle if it bothers you that much. And anyway, I doubt a pre-op trans woman who hates all of her male features is just going to casually have her dick flopping about for the world to see in a changing room, that is if she even has the courage to use the correct changing rooms for her gender identity, which usually doesn't happen until post-op.

WOW.

So trans people come before women in your world?

being gay also has nothing to do with what gender you are so this statement is pretty much pointless.

[Denver]

It sounds to me like the original tweet was probably referring to that labour mess where a trans person who hadn't go through the transition was made Women's officer which is quite ridiculous. Post op, I could understand that calling them a man in a dress is transphobic but if you haven't started transitioning then the term 'man in a dress' is quite....well....factual?

The trans community is cannabilising itself by attacking anyone and everyone that makes a mistake or says something ignorant whether or not the ignorance is innocent or not, people are just gonna push back against trans rights and such if it continues. People like the journalist quoted above by Marsh need to realise that you don't win hearts and minds by attacking people until they do what you say. Gay rights have come as far as they have, not through the gays attacking anyone and everyone but through education and understanding over the generations. in most countries where gay rights have been written into law, it wouldn't have been enough for just the gays to demand it, it's the allies that have helped push Gay Rights acts into law. Allies are vital and you don't create allies and dispel ignorance by screaming at people to do what you say.

This is the most intelligent post in here tbh

[Greg!]

And what will become of it, if any man is allowed to enter a woman-only space should they wake up in the morning and decide that they would like to identify as female?

I think their gender should be legally changed first in order to weed out any potential pervs. But at the end of the day, no one is stopping anyone from entering any room they like. That's a risk we all have to take every day. It's not like there's bouncers outside bathroom doors. There's a risk that you will get struck by lightening after leaving your house and walking down the street. However, the chances of that happening, much like a creep dressing up as a woman and pretending to be trans to perv on women in a changing room, are extremely unlikely. I think the trans debate should focus on the fact that 45% of trans youth attempt suicide, rather than these ridiculous hypothetical bathroom scenarios with no basis.

[Brillopad]

I think their gender should be legally changed first in order to weed out any potential pervs. But at the end of the day, no one is stopping anyone from entering any room they like. That's a risk we all have to take every day. It's not like there's bouncers outside bathroom doors. There's a risk that you will get struck by lightening after leaving your house and walking down the street. However, the chances of that happening, much like a creep dressing up as a woman and pretending to be trans to perv on women in a changing room, are extremely unlikely. I think the trans debate should focus on the fact that 45% of trans youth attempt suicide, rather than these ridiculous hypothetical bathroom scenarios with no basis.

Our local swimming pool had a problem with men sneaking into female changing rooms some time ago and holding phones and cameras under doors taking grimy pictures of young girls getting changed and I heard it was a common problem in many public areas like that.

Wake up - we have huge problems with sexual assault against women and young girls in this country and the world as a whole and such proposals will simply make it easier for such creeps to gain access - as it will be harder to challenge men who are hanging around.

Plus I think you will find it will be a lot more than 45% of women will not support this proposal - and we need to focus on them and their rights.

[Babayaro.]

and no trans dementors in her books?

a little too convenient in my book

vile hate filled woman

:bored:

Dobby was trans

[Vicky.]

I think their gender should be legally changed first in order to weed out any potential pervs. But at the end of the day, no one is stopping anyone from entering any room they like. That's a risk we all have to take every day. It's not like there's bouncers outside bathroom doors. There's a risk that you will get struck by lightening after leaving your house and walking down the street. However, the chances of that happening, much like a creep dressing up as a woman and pretending to be trans to perv on women in a changing room, are extremely unlikely. I think the trans debate should focus on the fact that 45% of trans youth attempt suicide, rather than these ridiculous hypothetical bathroom scenarios with no basis.

I know you probably won't read, but others might.
https://www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

[Crimson Dynamo]

Dobby was trans

exactly and she picked the most miserable servile non-human character


this evil hag needs exposing

[Greg!]

I know you probably won't read, but others might.
https://www.transgendertrend.com/stonewall-school-report-what-does-suicide-rate-mean/

You're right, I'm not going to read from a source called "transgender trend". (Recent evidence shows it is neurological and not a choice or trend.)

[Vicky.]

Which evidence would this be?

Also of course being transsexual is not a trend. 'Transgender' is though. There is a huge difference between the two.

[Greg!]

Which evidence would this be?



LT made a thread about it


https://www.biospace.com/article/new-study-indicates-dna-plays-role-in-gender-identity/

[Vicky.]

LT made a thread about it


https://www.biospace.com/article/new...nder-identity/

Thanks, had not seen that, will read it now.

I have always been more than willing to accept that there may be some biological reason for people being transsexual. 'Transgender' though is just nonsense.

[Mystic Mock]

How is it denying your privacy. No one is forced to use a public changing room. The clue is in the name - public. And if a trans woman wants to use the correct room that is her right.

I'm not a woman so it's not my place to state it as fact, but imo I don't think many women would want pre-op Trans male being able to use the women's Toilet's as they're not officially a woman yet, just like how not many men would want a pre-op Trans female to use the men's Toilets.

[jaxie]

I might feel uncomfortable if an old obese smelly wrinkly man was in the same changing room as me but I would just try and and use a private cubicle in future rather than constantly moaning and trying to ban old wrinkly men from changing rooms

And you think that your stereotype speak will help gain sympathy for the cause you are speaking up for? :shrug:

[Brillopad]

You're right, I'm not going to read from a source called "transgender trend". (Recent evidence shows it is neurological and not a choice or trend.)

Recent evidence showed it MAY be neurological and not a choice - but was based on small numbers of people. It is not conclusive as yet.

Besides what does that have to do with either self-identification of men with no clinical diagnosis claiming to be female to access female only areas or the rights of one smaller group trampling over the rights of others.

[Greg!]

And you think that your stereotype speak will help gain sympathy for the cause you are speaking up for? :shrug:

Who am I stereotyping? Old people? Smelly people? Wrinkly people? Spill beans

[Brillopad]

Who am I stereotyping? Old people? Smelly people? Wrinkly people? Spill beans

Old people clearly as 2 out 3 ageist comments = ageism. Maybe you think old people are smelly to - they were your words. :shrug:

[jaxie]

Who am I stereotyping? Old people? Smelly people? Wrinkly people? Spill beans

And thus you make everything you say pointless and not worth listening to. :shrug:

[Greg!]

I have NOWT against oldies I was just using it as an example of why people's personal tastes shouldn't lead to people being banned from places

[Vicky.]

Recent evidence showed it MAY be neurological and not a choice - but was based on small numbers of people. It is not conclusive as yet.

Besides what does that have to do with either self-identification of men with no clinical diagnosis claiming to be female to access female only areas or the rights of one smaller group trampling over the rights of others.

Well quite.

I have never ever had an issue with transsexual people, crack on, whatever makes you happy/feel better.

SelfID though I will always be against. Along with the lumping in of transsexual people with people who just do not follow stereotypes, crossdressers and drag queens under the 'trans' label. Transsexual people have bugger all in common with the other groups.

[Brillopad]

I have NOWT against oldies I was just using it as an example of why people's personal tastes shouldn't lead to people being banned from places

It has nothing to do with personal taste and everything to do with the privacy, SAFETY and the rights of half the population. The world is full of sex attacks by men on women - fact- and such a proposal puts women at risk. Simple as.

[Kizzy]

Old, obese, smelly and wrinkly are just adjectives. I would never personally slag someone off for being that (apart from maybe smelly as BO is absolutely disgusting - like have a wash)

so is bloke in a dress.

[Kizzy]

I have NOWT against oldies I was just using it as an example of why people's personal tastes shouldn't lead to people being banned from places

I have nowt against transpersonies

[Jack_]

976965765441011712

[Jack_]

What is it about social media that makes people go out of their way to check other people's likes & other activities for what their political affiliations are? I'm starting to think the connecting with other people concept is a bit of a scam, that what it often does is enable people to stalk & harass each other... tbh, TiBB has gotten like that too. There never used to be this fixation on accosting folk for not agreeing with each other on their particular views... I remember when there was the interacting and getting to know each other and stuff... now it's I need to know them so I can determine if they're my enemy or not.

I agree with this to an extent (maybe not so much with reference to the OP though)

One of THE most annoying things about this forum and the Big Brother fandom on Twitter is the insistence EVERY series on scouring the housemates social media profiles searching for buzzwords which might bring up some not-so-palatable opinions - as if it has ANY ****ing relevance as to what they're going to be like as a housemate, or the show at all tbh :conf: it's tiresome, obsessive and frankly pathetic, and is one of the many dreadful things about modern BB

[Greg!]

so is bloke in a dress.

Innacurate and offensive way to describe a trans woman though.

[Greg!]

976965765441011712

Omg a legend!

[Vicky.]

Why is Paris saying she is the only trans person who has ever been on QT? Jack Munroe was on a while back :suspect:

[Ashley.]

Innacurate and offensive way to describe a trans woman though.

Why is that any more offensive than shaming somebody for their age or size? You keep contradicting yourself in this thread.

[Oliver_W]

Why is Paris saying she is the only trans person who has ever been on QT? Jack Munroe was on a while back :suspect:

Is Jack Munroe actually trans, or just specialgender nonbinary snowflake?

[Greg!]

Why is that any more offensive than shaming somebody for their age or size? You keep contradicting yourself in this thread.

Soz I'll try and not be uncomfortable around BO ridden old men strolling around changing rooms with their dicks out in future then

[Greg!]

Is Jack Munroe actually trans, or just specialgender nonbinary snowflake?

I think they(?) say that they're non-binary, which I personally am slightly skeptical about but that's a whole different topic

[Ashley.]

Soz I'll try and not be uncomfortable around BO ridden old men strolling around changing rooms with their dicks out in future then

And I'll try not to feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a man I don't know, to suit your opinion.

[Oliver_W]

I think they(?) say that they're non-binary, which I personally have issues with but that's a whole different topic

Ah, so she's not really trans then. Cool.

[Greg!]

And I'll try not to feel uncomfortable getting changed in front of a man I don't know, to suit your opinion.

You don't have to worry about that though sis because this discussion isn't about men getting changed in women's changing rooms, it's about trans women being allowed to use the correct facilities. And if you still feel uncomfortable about it then that's a shame but it doesn't mean they should be banned from using certain rooms to suit how you feel. That's the point I was making.

[Denver]

I think they(?) say that they're non-binary, which I personally have issues with but that's a whole different topic
This is laughable

[Vicky.]

Non-binary IS trans. Going off stonewalls definitions

Though personally I reckon every damn person on this earth is non-binary

[Denver]

You don't have to worry about that though sis because this discussion isn't about men getting changed in women's changing rooms, it's about trans women being allowed to use the correct facilities. And if you still feel uncomfortable about it then that's a shame but it doesn't mean they should be banned from using certain rooms to suit how you feel. That's the point I was making.

They should only be allowed if they are legally that gender not because they go around saying they are

[Greg!]

They should only be allowed if they are legally that gender not because they go around saying they are

I agree, I've already said that

[Oliver_W]

This is laughable

It really is. Also, specialgender types nearly all seem to be well off people with no real problems in life. I've never heard of someone who lives on a council estate and has real problems say crap like "I'm an agender nonbinary, and my pronouns are they/ze"

[Greg!]

Lol just want to clarify that I don't consider myself "non binary" or whatever, I meant I am skeptical about it but I worded my post wrong

[Vicky.]

I am a special snowflake when going off the labels people like to use these days :D

I am a non-binary a-gender female

Yay,. go me :laugh: I am special and everyone must bow down to my demands. My pronouns are 'your highness' if you please

[Brillopad]

I am a special snowflake when going off the labels people like to use these days :D

I am a non-binary a-gender female

Yay,. go me :laugh: I am special and everyone must bow down to my demands. My pronouns are 'your highness' if you please

:joker:

[Ashley.]

You don't have to worry about that though sis because this discussion isn't about men getting changed in women's changing rooms, it's about trans women being allowed to use the correct facilities. And if you still feel uncomfortable about it then that's a shame but it doesn't mean they should be banned from using certain rooms to suit how you feel. That's the point I was making.

Once they've had the operation, they can use whatever facility they damn well please. The topic of discussion that you brought up was based around a statement made by J.K. Rowling saying that women should be allowed to feel uncomfortable if a man with a penis claiming to be a woman stepped foot in a woman-only space.

[Brillopad]

Once they've had the operation, they can use whatever facility they damn well please. The topic of discussion that you brought up was based around a statement made by J.K. Rowling saying that women should be allowed to feel uncomfortable if a man with a penis claiming to be a woman stepped foot in a woman-only space.

It was indeed.

[Greg!]

Once they've had the operation, they can use whatever facility they damn well please. The topic of discussion that you brought up was based around a statement made by J.K. Rowling saying that women should be allowed to feel uncomfortable if a man with a penis claiming to be a woman stepped foot in a woman-only space.

Just because they've not had the op doesn't make them a man

[kirklancaster]

I am a special snowflake when going off the labels people like to use these days :D

I am a non-binary a-gender female

Yay,. go me :laugh: I am special and everyone must bow down to my demands. My pronouns are 'your highness' if you please

:laugh:

[Marsh.]

Soz I'll try and not be uncomfortable around BO ridden old men strolling around changing rooms with their dicks out in future thenThat doesn't make sense. You can feel uncomfortable about old men walking about swinging their dick around but others can't feel the same if that person happens to identify as a woman?

[Brillopad]

Just because they've not had the op doesn't make them a man

But women don’t want to share changing rooms with men with willies. It isn’t men’s place to try to force them.

[Greg!]

That doesn't make sense. You can feel uncomfortable about old men walking about swinging their dick around but others can't feel the same if that person happens to identify as a woman?

People can (rightfully or wrongfully) feel uncomfortable about anything they want, it doesn't mean a whole group of people should be banned from using changing rooms because some people feel uncomfortable standing next to them or whatever.

[Oliver_W]

I kind of agree that whether or not someone has had the snippedy-doo-dah-dey should be a determining factor - they will be biologically male no matter what they have done, so such things aren't particularly relevant. But I also agree that diagnosed sex-dysphoria should be a determining factor, rather than self-ID.

[Brillopad]

People can (rightfully or wrongfully) feel uncomfortable about anything they want, it doesn't mean a whole group of people should be banned from using changing rooms because some people feel uncomfortable standing next to them or whatever.

Are you going to continue to ignore the obvious potential safety issue for women - or do you simply not give a damn - as your continual refusal to address it suggests.

[Greg!]

Are you going to continue to ignore the obvious potential safety issue for women - or do you simply not give a damn - as your continual refusal to address it suggests.

We're talking about legally recognised trans women who are transitioned or transitioning being allowed to use the correct changing rooms, not men.

[Denver]

People can (rightfully or wrongfully) feel uncomfortable about anything they want, it doesn't mean a whole group of people should be banned from using changing rooms because some people feel uncomfortable standing next to them or whatever.

I dont think its a man's right to say what women should feel comfortable with because that is what most o the campaigners are men and they dont know what is going through a womans mind

[Ashley.]

We're talking about legally recognised trans women who are transitioned or transitioning being allowed to use the correct changing rooms, not men.
Since when? We're talking about the statement that you highlighted on the first page, which had nothing to do with legally recognised trans women.

[Brillopad]

We're talking about legally recognised trans women who are transitioned or transitioning being allowed to use the correct changing rooms, not men.

If they still have a Willie they are a man and women should not have to share their private areas with them.

There will have to be a third option because women have a right to say NO to this - trans women do not have more rights than biological women.

[Greg!]

If they still have a Willie they are a man and women should not have to share their private areas with them.


Incorrect

[Brillopad]

Incorrect

This is not law yet - it is a proposal and biological women can shout as loud as trans women if they have to. Trans women have no more rights than anyone else.





I

[Vicky.]

This is not law yet - it is a proposal and biological women can shout as loud as trans women if they have to. Trans women have no more rights than anyone else.





I

Actually current law does state that a person with a penis can be legally a woman. For a GRC, whats needed is a small fee, a diagnosis of sex dysphoria and to 'live as' (pretty sure this means follow stereotypes...) the opposite sex for 2 years.

Whats being fought for, is removal of any medical intervention AT ALL (ie not even a diagnosis..:suspect: ). Which is clearly stupid.

But yeah, currently no actual transition is required in order to get a GRC.

[jaxie]

I dont think its a man's right to say what women should feel comfortable with because that is what most o the campaigners are men and they dont know what is going through a womans mind

Comment of the thread. Exactly. :wavey:

[Brillopad]

Actually current law does state that a person with a penis can be legally a woman. For a GRC, whats needed is a small fee, a diagnosis of sex dysphoria and to 'live as' (pretty sure this means follow stereotypes...) the opposite sex for 2 years.

HOw how do we know if trans women in the ladies’ areas are legally women then - are they card-carrying or something so that If someone asked them for proof they had a right to be there they would have to produce it. Confused!

I’m sure the only reason they are not being expected to have the op is so the NHS doesn’t have to pay for all those expensive operations. A diagnosis at least should be a must - anything else is a joke.

[Vicky.]

Legally women is just a stupid term IMO also. But its law already..

We have men, we have women, we have transmen and we have transwomen. No need for any 'legally' ****.

And you don't know if anyone has a GRC. The guy who lives next door could technically have one if he has a diagnosis of dysphoria. Its all just a little bit daft. And now businesses and such are taking on a 'self ID' model, which makes things worse

[user104658]

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea". :idc:

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it :shrug:.

[Kizzy]

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea". :idc:

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it :shrug:.

So basically this is you saying if you don't like it you're transphobic?...

Is this your 'juicy morsel', you don't have an opinion either way so nobody else is allowed one? Nobody as far as I see are 'fixated' Interested or invested even but not fixated.

[Ashley.]

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea". :idc:

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it :shrug:.

I should have known that a post like this was going to crop up eventually.

Nobody's "fixated" for contributing to a discussion that they feel strongly about.

[Northern Monkey]

Can’t see where it was transphobic.Women don’t want people with penises(otherwise known as men) in their changing rooms.Just as men don’t want women in their changing rooms.That seems to be what she said.Nothing about post-op transexuals.

[user104658]

So basically this is you saying if you don't like it you're transphobic?...

No.

Is this your 'juicy morsel', you don't have an opinion either way so nobody else is allowed one?

No.

Nobody as far as I see are 'fixated' Interested or invested even but not fixated.

Recently it seems like some people are a bit fixated, in my opinion, and a general idea that "trans is wrong" or that somehow the sanctity of womanhood(?) is being threatened by it is contributing to some over-the-top assessments of various issues.

[AnnieK]

I don't see fixation as such. I see people with firm opinions on both sides. I can't honestly see either side changing their views but I wouldn't class it as fixated.

[user104658]

I don't see fixation as such. I see people with firm opinions on both sides. I can't honestly see either side changing their views but I wouldn't class it as fixated.For an issue that's as old as the hills, it seems to be coming up an awful lot, doesn't it? It's the new "immigrants / Brexit". I felt quite nostalgic when a good old fashioned immigrants thread resurfaced today.

[Cherie]

Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment

If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

[Kizzy]

No.

Well sorry that's how you're coming across.

No.

Well sorry that's how you're coming across.



Recently it seems like some people are a bit fixated, in my opinion, and a general idea that "trans is wrong" or that somehow the sanctity of womanhood(?) is being threatened by it is contributing to some over-the-top assessments of various issues.

Nobody has said or even suggested that.
So before you didn't have an opinion but now you have an opinion and that is that mine or 'some' opinions are 'over the top assessments'?

Remember your view that women my age couldn't have an opinion on gaming or games? What qualifies you to comment here...
Not saying you can't or anything, but what?

I'm holding you to the same standard, how can you who have zero experience being a woman, or trans claim that my or 'some' opinions are over the top?

[Kizzy]

For an issue that's as old as the hills, it seems to be coming up an awful lot, doesn't it? It's the new "immigrants / Brexit". I felt quite nostalgic when a good old fashioned immigrants thread resurfaced today.

You created the issue... you suggested in a thread that there was a problem with opinions being 'vitriolic' and then started another thread to explore that further :/

[Northern Monkey]

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea". :idc:

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it :shrug:.
I think it’s just a big story at the mo because of the self gender I.D thingy law.I don’t think this forum as a whole is particularly fixated.Apart from a couple of posters.
It’s a pretty big thing now.Specially in the Labour Party.It’s causing massive division in there atm and making mainstream politics shows.Two groups of ‘oppressed’ people(Trans and Feminists) duking it out all over the internet.
I’m not particularly passionate about this being a man but i agree with the feminists on this (one) issue.

If you wanna see fixated and blown out of proportion just click on one of Vicky’s Mumsnet feminism forum links.
I had a read on a few topics on there and they’re in hysterics over this stuff.

[Maru]

The problem for JK Rowling is that Celebrities do get stalked alot on the Internet and she knows this that's why she should be careful on what she likes on Social Media as rightly or wrongly, if she holds a controversial opinion it could be a career killer.

I agree with you that alot of people do get too emotionally invested on sites like Twitter and Facebook etc, but JK Rowling and other Celebrities shouldn't be giving these kinds of people ammunition.

I disagree. I think people shouldn't hide their true beliefs (their real identity) because a mob mentality could develop. That's part of the issue. Nobody wants to be called racist or some other -phobic word. So people hide their true opinion and craft false personas. When you add it all up, it makes a toxic environment, because it means that everything is--at best--"true" only on a surface level.

That doesn't sound like the open world I'd want myself or my children to grow up in... anyway, beating a dead horse I think with Twitter because it's already too far gone imo :laugh:... I think I will just stop using social media entirely and move my news feeds back to RSS.

[kirklancaster]

I disagree. I think people shouldn't hide their true beliefs (their real identity) because a mob mentality could develop. That's part of the issue. Nobody wants to be called racist or some other -phobic word. So people hide their true opinion and craft false personas. When you add it all up, it makes a toxic environment, because it means that everything is--at best--"true" only on a surface level.

That doesn't sound like the open world I'd want myself or my children to grow up in... anyway, beating a dead horse I think with Twitter because it's already too far gone imo :laugh:... I think I will just stop using social media entirely and move my news feeds back to RSS.

:clap1:

[Cherie]

This thread reminds me of any immigrant thread, you can't have an opposing opinion or point out the obvious disadvantages to self identifying without being labelled

[kirklancaster]

This thread reminds me of any immigrant thread, you can't have an opposing opinion or point out the obvious disadvantages to self identifying without being labelled

I got this impression too Cherie.

[user104658]

Nobody has said or even suggested that.
So before you didn't have an opinion but now you have an opinion and that is that mine or 'some' opinions are 'over the top assessments'?

Remember your view that women my age couldn't have an opinion on gaming or games? What qualifies you to comment here...
Not saying you can't or anything, but what?

I'm holding you to the same standard, how can you who have zero experience being a woman, or trans claim that my or 'some' opinions are over the top?Because I'm not criticising the opinions or saying that people don't have the right to have or state their opinions however they want. I'm questioning the way those opinions are being delivered because I'm wondering if people are being completely honest about the feelings that they have that are actually driving those opinions. :shrug:

I don't really care if people have anti-trans ideologies or aversions. Honestly. What dies bother me, is people bull****ting and pretending that their opinions are driven by other things.

Also, once again Kizzy, I'm at a total loss as to how you've managed to read my posts and decide that it's you that I'm talking about. So self-important... It's a bit ridiculous.

[jaxie]

Because I'm not criticising the opinions or saying that people don't have the right to have or state their opinions however they want. I'm questioning the way those opinions are being delivered because I'm wondering if people are being completely honest about the feelings that they have that are actually driving those opinions. :shrug:

I don't really care if people have anti-trans ideologies or aversions. Honestly. What dies bother me, is people bull****ting and pretending that their opinions are driven by other things.

Also, once again Kizzy, I'm at a total loss as to how you've managed to read my posts and decide that it's you that I'm talking about. So self-important... It's a bit ridiculous.

Aren't you being just as self important in deciding that other people are pretending their opinions? You don't know how other people think. :shrug:

[user104658]

Aren't you being just as self important in deciding that other people are pretending their opinions? You don't know how other people think. :shrug:I'm sharing my opinion, anyone who wants to disagree is free to do so... that's entirely different from assuming that any and all posts that don't mention someone by name are "about you", as Kizzy has done at least 3 times with my posts recently. I am rarely, if ever, talking about Kizzy in these posts :think:.

[user104658]

Also, I didn't say that anyone was "pretending their opinion", I said I'm interested in knowing what actually lies behind those opinions, because (for me) a lot of it doesn't quite add up :shrug:.

[Kazanne]

I disagree. I think people shouldn't hide their true beliefs (their real identity) because a mob mentality could develop. That's part of the issue. Nobody wants to be called racist or some other -phobic word. So people hide their true opinion and craft false personas. When you add it all up, it makes a toxic environment, because it means that everything is--at best--"true" only on a surface level.

That doesn't sound like the open world I'd want myself or my children to grow up in... anyway, beating a dead horse I think with Twitter because it's already too far gone imo :laugh:... I think I will just stop using social media entirely and move my news feeds back to RSS.

Good Post Maru,we should be able to say how we truly feel, please or offend.

[Kizzy]

Because I'm not criticising the opinions or saying that people don't have the right to have or state their opinions however they want. I'm questioning the way those opinions are being delivered because I'm wondering if people are being completely honest about the feelings that they have that are actually driving those opinions. :shrug:

I don't really care if people have anti-trans ideologies or aversions. Honestly. What dies bother me, is people bull****ting and pretending that their opinions are driven by other things.

Also, once again Kizzy, I'm at a total loss as to how you've managed to read my posts and decide that it's you that I'm talking about. So self-important... It's a bit ridiculous.

You think that people are saying one thing but meaning another?... That's a very paranoid attitude, I'm not for a second suggesting you aimed this at me but rest assured I'm NOT in the habit of saying the opposite of what I mean... What I say is 99.9% of the time EXACTLY what I mean.

For clarification the post you made in relation to 'vitriolic' comments when I asked you for an example you QUOTED me... That might have been where I got the impression you were suggesting your reference included me.

I'm not going to apologise for your misleading accusation.
There are not that many people so deeply involved in this discussion that share my opinion but as you've stated categorically it isn't me I'll let you jab your little pointy finger at someone else.

[Kizzy]

Also, I didn't say that anyone was "pretending their opinion", I said I'm interested in knowing what actually lies behind those opinions, because (for me) a lot of it doesn't quite add up :shrug:.

What's your theory columbo?..
http://33.media.tumblr.com/83d79b17294f9081fb0af7705f32fac1/tumblr_ng53t0FLbs1tfbtrwo1_400.gif

[Marsh.]

Nothing better to help your cause about women's rights, feminism and sexism than a bit of sexism thrown at men. Never change TiBB.

[Maru]

Why does a difference in opinion have to lead to an examination of our morals as individuals? This is the toxic ingredient in these discussions.

The thought process behind an idea in our mind involves free will. We break social norms all the time when using our free will. We have to. It's impossible to be emotionally healthy otherwise, much less be open as an individual, if we can't test one idea fully against one another. So I don't see the point of looking for potential "minefields" in someone's way of thinking simply on the basis it could lead to immoral conclusions... free thinking is supposed to be hazardous to our belief systems, otherwise we will tend to only form idealistic and unrealistic conclusions from ideas in general... that's the critical thinking process in a nutshell.

Some of us want to hear all ideas, not just those from the current events echo chamber. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any discussion without a sounding board to test our ideas... if there need be moral qualifiers in order to engage in the competition of ideas, then those aren't real debates.

[Kizzy]

Nothing better to help your cause about women's rights, feminism and sexism than a bit of sexism thrown at men. Never change TiBB.

http://brooklynbuttah.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/sexism-4-bb.gif

[Marsh.]

http://brooklynbuttah.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/sexism-4-bb.gif

No, Kizzy, when you're sexist, you're sexist regardless of the attitude behind it.

[Kizzy]

Why does a difference in opinion have to lead to an examination of our morals as individuals? This is the toxic ingredient in these discussions.

The thought process behind an idea in our mind involves free will. We break social norms all the time when using our free will. We have to. It's impossible to be emotionally healthy otherwise, much less be open as an individual, if we can't test one idea fully against one another. So I don't see the point of looking for potential "minefields" in someone's way of thinking simply on the basis it could lead to immoral conclusions... free thinking is supposed to be hazardous to our belief systems, otherwise we will tend to only form idealistic and unrealistic conclusions from ideas in general... that's the critical thinking process in a nutshell.

Some of us want to hear all ideas, not just those from the current events echo chamber. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any discussion without a sounding board to test our ideas... if there need be moral qualifiers in order to engage in the competition of ideas, then those aren't real debates.

Free will?! hahaha there's no such thing here, collective will is the cultural norm the majority will prevails.

[Marsh.]

Free will to you is having an opinion that is above being questioned or debated by someone else? Because sharing your opinion on a public forum is pointless if you take this stance at someone daring to pick out what they see as holes in your argument.

[Kizzy]

No, Kizzy, when you're sexist, you're sexist regardless of the attitude behind it.

Am I a sexist, What drove you to that conclusion?

[Kizzy]

Free will to you is having an opinion that is above being questioned or debated by someone else? Because sharing your opinion on a public forum is pointless if you take this stance at someone daring to pick out what they see as holes in your argument.

Nobody has picked out anything, and you can't mean TS as he doesn't even have an argument :/

[Marsh.]

Am I a sexist, What drove you to that conclusion?

Kizzy, you constantly bring up the fact a member is a man and use that to disparage their contributions to the thread on a frequent basis.

You could be quoted by a female member and a male member with the exact same question or response and you'd automatically accuse the male member of "mansplaining" or of daring to tell a woman how she should think.

It's ridiculous.

[Kizzy]

Kizzy, you constantly bring up the fact a member is a man and use that to disparage their contributions to the thread on a frequent basis.

You could be quoted by a female member and a male member with the exact same question or response and you'd automatically accuse the male member of "mansplaining" or of daring to tell a woman how she should think.

It's ridiculous.

In the context of this thread that's ridiculous as this whole premise here now is me reacting to what TS suggested was the 'problem' with the women on the forum and him not thinking they are reacting appropriately!

As I mentioned earlier it's happened before on other threads I just started to point it out recently and it became a bit of a 'thing'.

[Marsh.]

In the context of this thread that's ridiculous as this whole premise here now is me reacting to what TS suggested was the 'problem' with the women on the forum and him not thinking they are reacting appropriately!

As I mentioned earlier it's happened before on other threads I just started to point it out recently and it became a bit of a 'thing'.

In the context of this thread, he hasn't mentioned a problem with women once.

Also, my understanding of his complaint was the intent behind their reactions/stance, not the reactions themselves.

[Kizzy]

In the context of this thread, he hasn't mentioned a problem with women once.

Also, my understanding of his complaint was the intent behind their reactions/stance, not the reactions themselves.

Ah well any complaints relating to my stance must be issued in writing to www.dontgiveafeck.co.uk

[Vicky.]

The intent behind my stance is to hopefully stop all men from being able to access female areas. I think its just a bonkers proposal and do not understand how anyone can support it tbh. I have no issue with transsexual people and do think that fully transitioned people should use the areas for the sex they are trying to be..and before that I guess if they 'pass', noone would know anyway. But honestly, I would very much prefer no penises in female prisons and such. I think its dangerous and it is a disaster waiting to happen (infact it has happened already..and the person with a penis was just moved...to another female prison :umm2: )

I think most people who say they are 'transgender' are just jumping on the bandwagon so to speak,especially children..or are convinced that not following the correct stereotypes makes them trans...rather than just an individual. I also think that stonewall should stop linking fetishists with transsexual people as this is doing transsexual people a lot of harm. I don't see why they are linked in the first place.

I am very very much against self ID in any form. This is why I am suddenly posting a lot on trans threads, as the law change is actually being considered NOW. And before rabid transactivists started their ****, noone really cared. But when asking one question leads to a variety of death and rape threats..this tends to make people look up on the topic that noones meant to talk about, it did with me anyway.

Answering as I am 99% sure TS was on about me, not you kizzy :p

[Marsh.]

Ah well any complaints relating to my stance must be issued in writing to www.dontgiveafeck.co.uk

There you go again.

It's a public forum, we're all entitled to air our views, including about what's others have posted. I don't need you to give a ****, but if you have such an issue with people commenting then why you bother with a discussion forum is a ****ing mystery.

[Marsh.]

The intent behind my stance is to hopefully stop all men from being able to access female areas. I think its just a bonkers proposal and do not understand how anyone can support it tbh. I have no issue with transsexual people and do think that fully transitioned people should use the areas for the sex they are trying to be..and before that I guess if they 'pass', noone would know anyway. But honestly, I would very much prefer no penises in female prisons and such. I think its dangerous and it is a disaster waiting to happen (infact it has happened already..and the person with a penis was just moved...to another female prison :umm2: )

I think most people who say they are 'transgender' are just jumping on the bandwagon so to speak,especially children..or are convinced that not following the correct stereotypes makes them trans...rather than just an individual. I also think that stonewall should stop linking fetishists with transsexual people as this is doing transsexual people a lot of harm. I don't see why they are linked in the first place.

I am very very much against self ID in any form. This is why I am suddenly posting a lot on trans threads, as the law change is actually being considered NOW. And before rabid transactivists started their ****, noone really cared. But when asking one question leads to a variety of death and rape threats..this tends to make people look up on the topic that noones meant to talk about, it did with me anyway.

Answering as I am 99% sure TS was on about me, not you kizzy :p

Don't be daft Vicky, everything's about Kizzy.

[Kizzy]

Thanks for that Vicky, I feel the same although I'd say that was clear from the off to be fair.

[Kizzy]

Don't be daft Vicky, everything's about Kizzy.

https://m.popkey.co/313d6e/Ep3Ov.gif

Not everything....Most things.

[Ammi]

You know, I'm not saying there aren't valid concerns (some blown pretty far out of proportion, but valid nonetheless) however... I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea". :idc:

Its gotten to that stage where it feels like there are stories about it, and certain people are like "Ooh yay a juicy morsel to jump on".

Like I'll be honest and say that I'm not even 100% what my position on the whole debate is, I haven't given it much thought, because (on here, especially) the most worrying thing about the whole issue is people's fixation on it :shrug:.

..I’m not sure it’s so much ‘fixation’ TS...but more about the proposed legislation being very much a discussion thing atm...whatever the topic, we tend to often become ‘momentarily fixated’....with concerns about many things...?...

...I’m still trying to get my thoughts together with this, I have to say...so maybe I’m becoming a little fixated myself, you could say..:love:...but yeah, there will seem to be ‘fixation’, in trying to understand because of the proposed legislation etc...

...this is a good article actually TS, which I’ve found helpful...I’m sure there are many articles about the topic but this is something I found last week through these discussions....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40713645


...I hope that links ok, I hate iPads...there should be a safe space to protect against ipad stuff...

...anyways..(..my belief and understanding atm..)... is the concerns are very specific...of protecting vulnerability against ‘predatory males’...because of the legislation leaving ‘open to abuse’...so when terms are used as has been discussed recently..of ‘guys in frocks’ for instance...which does feel ‘transphobic’, I understand completely...but what makes such terms not transphobic though...is that they’re not being applied to any transgender person..?...they’re being applied to exactly what they say on the tin..to those who specific individuals who would abuse because of the proposed legislation...?...predatory males in frocks is maybe how it should more be, for a better understanding and clarity..?...

....as I say, I’m still trying to get my thoughts and my own understandings completely with this...so a Gender Recognition Certificate, which would mean that someone has ‘lived for two years’ if (..for whatever reason..)...surgical procedures haven’t been opted for..?...atm that is, that two year period is required for gender transition to be recognised..?....which would seem similar to requiring a DBS certificate to be around vulnerables in certain jobs etc...so I do understand when jobs are involved and obviously that certificate will always be shown and seen...but with a Gender Recognition Certificate...how will that be known in someone using a public loo for instance, how is it known atm...?...how is it known if someone is transgender or a ‘predatory male’...is the certificate carried everywhere...like an ‘ID proof’ would be..?...


...it’s all quite complex and confusing..:laugh:...for me anyway but it might just be me...TS it’s like the feminism discussion a little while ago...’a place of equality has to be reached first..’...which is what you rightly said....and a place of equality has not been reached for transgender people because transgender is only in the infancy of being understood in recent times...and the ‘clash’ it’s having atm ..(..with this proposed legislation..)...is with feminism which still hasn’t reached its equal state either...so there the ‘sticking points’ come again...feminism knows and understands inequality completely...which is surely why it would naturally understand and want to give..that equality to transgender people...but in doing that, it would also be ‘giving’ to those who would seek to abuse, the predatory male..?...the guys in frocks as it were..?...so there is obvious reasons why the resistance is such as it seems to be which is seeming ‘fixated’...?....
.

[Ammi]

...I guess what I’m saying is that the resistance to the resistance...would (..appear..)..to be coming from males...and why would that be...because that ‘equal place’ which feminism continues to strive for, never had to be reached for by males..?...

[jaxie]

Why does a difference in opinion have to lead to an examination of our morals as individuals? This is the toxic ingredient in these discussions.

The thought process behind an idea in our mind involves free will. We break social norms all the time when using our free will. We have to. It's impossible to be emotionally healthy otherwise, much less be open as an individual, if we can't test one idea fully against one another. So I don't see the point of looking for potential "minefields" in someone's way of thinking simply on the basis it could lead to immoral conclusions... free thinking is supposed to be hazardous to our belief systems, otherwise we will tend to only form idealistic and unrealistic conclusions from ideas in general... that's the critical thinking process in a nutshell.

Some of us want to hear all ideas, not just those from the current events echo chamber. Otherwise, what would be the point of having any discussion without a sounding board to test our ideas... if there need be moral qualifiers in order to engage in the competition of ideas, then those aren't real debates.

It's always the same moral accusations from the same people. Whatever the discussion.

[Brillopad]

...I guess what I’m saying is that the resistance to the resistance...would (..appear..)..to be coming from males...and why would that be...because that ‘equal place’ which feminism continues to strive for, never had to be reached for by males..?...

Agree completely Ammi. If I have read this right some men are questioning female intent behind the views they hold regarding self-identification of men as women - which demonstrates to me a question mark over either the intent or the understanding of the men doing this.

It demonstrates to me on the whole that they don’t really understand where we are coming from as put simply they have never been there. They don’t understand how it feels as a woman when walking alone at night and the heart-stopping moment they realise they are being followed. Even when it is just a man walking behind them - the relief when he turns off and the fear when he doesn’t. I have been in both scenarios as have many, many women.

Men simply do not understand that vulnerability which explains why so many cannot see the potential risks faced by women if any bloody man can enter an enclosed women only area, where other women may not be at that time, and a woman is alone with a potential predator. It is potentially dangerous day or night when others are not around and when there is no safety in numbers.

Why does there have to be an ulterior motive other than the very real fear of attack. The fact this may seem ludicrous to some men shows how little they get it as they have no sense of that vulnerability. I also think men struggle more with putting themselves in the shoes of others and trying to imagine how it must feel - especially if it is something they have never experienced and are unlikely to do so. In my experience most men would think little of walking in an isolated place day or night whereas most women simply wouldn’t do so with good reason.

So for me most men genuinely don’t understand, whilst others have no interest in doing so because they don’t give a cr**. That is what women face daily and is why this is such a big issue for many women.

[Beso]

Do you think men never **** themselves when walking home alone brillo?

[Brillopad]

Do you think men never **** themselves when walking home alone brillo?

Maybe if they see a group of men ahead or something but it isn’t the same. They rarely have reason to fear just one man and most attacks and sexual assaults are carried out by lone men.

[Cherie]

You think that people are saying one thing but meaning another?... That's a very paranoid attitude, I'm not for a second suggesting you aimed this at me but rest assured I'm NOT in the habit of saying the opposite of what I mean... What I say is 99.9% of the time EXACTLY what I mean.

For clarification the post you made in relation to 'vitriolic' comments when I asked you for an example you QUOTED me... That might have been where I got the impression you were suggesting your reference included me.

I'm not going to apologise for your misleading accusation.
There are not that many people so deeply involved in this discussion that share my opinion but as you've stated categorically it isn't me I'll let you jab your little pointy finger at someone else.

tbf this is levied at people a lot in different discussions on TiBB so it should come as no surprise really

[Beso]

Maybe if they see a group of men ahead or something but it isn’t the same. They rarely have reason to fear just one man and most attacks and sexual assaults are carried out by lone men.

I got to disagree what with the increase of people carrying knives. I think most men are being dishonest if they claim to never be scared walking alone at night.

[Cherie]

Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment

If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

asking for a second time? anyone care to comment

[Brillopad]

I got to disagree what with the increase of people carrying knives. I think most men are being dishonest if they claim to never be scared walking alone at night.

I don’t doubt that Parmy but that is a more recent development whereas women have experienced such vulnerability since the year dot.

[Beso]

I don’t doubt that Parmy but that is a more recent development whereas women have experienced such vulnerability since the year dot.

Ah, yes very true.

But so will some men have, we aint all big brave rufty tufty types

[Brillopad]

asking for a second time? anyone care to comment

They really hsven’t Thought this through in their rush to appease have they.

Or are they planning to make religious exceptions which to me undermines the whole concept of equality. I hope such a move would be contested if so.

[kirklancaster]

asking for a second time? anyone care to comment

Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment


I'm your man on this Cherie, because - to be quite honest - I had no idea what all this 'palaver' was about until reading through as the thread progressed, and now I think it is neo-Liberal PC gone UTTERLY and DANGEROUSLY 'La La'.


If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

True, but the real concern is; that it gives a 'Free Pass' to ANY pervert to indulge his voyeuristic inclinations or to any 'Flasher' who gets off on exhibiting himself to women.

Totally, totally BONKERS. :shrug:

[Cherie]

They really hsven’t Thought this through in their rush to appease have they.

Or are they planning to make religious exceptions which to me undermines the whole concept of equality. I hope such a move would be contested if so.

Originally Posted by Cherie View Post
Isn't it the self identication that is the issue here? So here are two issues I have and maybe someone from the "no issues here guv" part of the forum can comment


I'm your man on this Cherie, because - to be quite honest - I had no idea what all this 'palaver' was about until reading through as the thread progressed, and now I think it is neo-Liberal PC gone UTTERLY and DANGEROUSLY 'La La'.


If the self identification law is passed....any male can access a women's refuge

Any male can convert to Islam and access female only areas

Any female can identify as male and access men only clubs

Any female can convert to Islam and attend male only gatherings

I don't really have an issue with changing rooms as cubicles are more the norm than communal changing areas, I don't think trans is wrong and I don't think anyone else thinks that either ...transitioning...post op no issue, but wake up and decide today's the day ...no as the above are concerning to me, I know these are extreme examples but people do go to extremes at times

True, but the real concern is; that it gives a 'Free Pass' to ANY pervert to indulge his voyeuristic inclinations or to any 'Flasher' who gets off on exhibiting himself to women.

Totally, totally BONKERS. :shrug:

Thanks both, I'm still waiting for a comment from those who feel women are making a big fuss over nothing and are in reality transphobic although apparently we don't know this yet and need it pointed out to us by males :laugh:

[jaxie]

...I guess what I’m saying is that the resistance to the resistance...would (..appear..)..to be coming from males...and why would that be...because that ‘equal place’ which feminism continues to strive for, never had to be reached for by males..?...

I've said this before too though less gently and been accused of transphobia and sexism. But it's basically men telling women what think and feel. :shrug:

[Withano]

I havent commented on the self-ID thing, cos I'm pretty sit-ty-on-the-fensey with it. As in I dont agree people can just claim their gender before entering an area not designed for them, nor do I think they have to wait until after the transistion to use them. (I think anybody actively planning on getting, or hoping to get, the op should get the option, that idea doesnt seem to float about much though?).

Regarding the list Cherie made, I, again, am pretty in the middle. There should be areas designed for gender, and areas designed for sex. I'd argue the ones on Cherie's list should be an issue of sex (their current physical sex, not birth sex), not gender.

Its actually pretty comfortable on the fense on this one.. why are we all fighting for one extreme or the other?

[Brillopad]

I've said this before too though less gently and been accused of transphobia and sexism. But it's basically men telling women what think and feel. :shrug:

It is indeed - in part because they don’t and can’t understand, but some fail to understand that apparently - and in part because others don’t want to understand - and although will protest they support female equality - actions suggest that actually maybe they don’t. Maybe there is something in their sub-conscious that is still resisting as giving up that top-dog position has its drawbacks.

[user104658]

The intent behind my stance is to hopefully stop all men from being able to access female areas. I think its just a bonkers proposal and do not understand how anyone can support it tbh. I have no issue with transsexual people and do think that fully transitioned people should use the areas for the sex they are trying to be..and before that I guess if they 'pass', noone would know anyway. But honestly, I would very much prefer no penises in female prisons and such. I think its dangerous and it is a disaster waiting to happen (infact it has happened already..and the person with a penis was just moved...to another female prison :umm2: )

I think most people who say they are 'transgender' are just jumping on the bandwagon so to speak,especially children..or are convinced that not following the correct stereotypes makes them trans...rather than just an individual. I also think that stonewall should stop linking fetishists with transsexual people as this is doing transsexual people a lot of harm. I don't see why they are linked in the first place.

I am very very much against self ID in any form. This is why I am suddenly posting a lot on trans threads, as the law change is actually being considered NOW. And before rabid transactivists started their ****, noone really cared. But when asking one question leads to a variety of death and rape threats..this tends to make people look up on the topic that noones meant to talk about, it did with me anyway.

Answering as I am 99% sure TS was on about me, not you kizzy :pThankyou Vicky. See, I find the entirety of this post to be totally fair and well-reasoned. It makes a lot of sense, and it's. Well reasoned. I personally feel like the scope of just how many men are going to suddenly declare themselves females just to perv and flash is, perhaps, blown a bit out of proportion... But I do understand the concern, and I do also think the change in law (if it is as extensive as this) is ridiculous.

Where my issue lies, for clarification, is that the posts on this topic are NOT always so well reasoned and the arguments not always so well set out, and they descend into mocking / "crying laughing face type" / posts that scream "dick dick dick cock cock" over and over pointedly.

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

And these sentiments get a lot of support from others, too.

Basically, there's quite a lot of "evidence" that suggests to me that this is not at all "just about the issue of self-id". That clearly is a big PART of what the issue is here, but it doesn't seem to be the whole issue, and that seems to be being tip-toed around and that frustrates me.

[Withano]

Its not at all a 'men telling women' issue. Tibb is a small bubble, and men being farrrr more fine with transrights than women on this one single website bares no resemblance to the real world.

[Beso]

Its not just this example of things that people/men can or could take advantage off...2 male paedos could get a civil partnership..

fool the appropriate departments..

Then most scarily, adopt a child...
But we have had that discussion.

[user104658]

As for the chorus of "It's just the man's telling the women's wot to fink!!"... Come on guys you can do better than this. Well most of you can anyway.

[jaxie]

Its not at all a 'men telling women' issue. Tibb is a small bubble, and men being farrrr more fine with transrights than women on this one single website bares no resemblance to the real world.

In denial.

[Brillopad]

Its not at all a 'men telling women' issue. Tibb is a small bubble, and men being farrrr more fine with transrights than women on this one single website bares no resemblance to the real world.

Of course men are more supportive of it for all the reasons constantly pointed out by women. Isn’t that the point! The fact it needs pointing out is very telling.

[jaxie]

Thankyou Vicky. See, I find the entirety of this post to be totally fair and well-reasoned. It makes a lot of sense, and it's. Well reasoned. I personally feel like the scope of just how many men are going to suddenly declare themselves females just to perv and flash is, perhaps, blown a bit out of proportion... But I do understand the concern, and I do also think the change in law (if it is as extensive as this) is ridiculous.

Where my issue lies, for clarification, is that the posts on this topic are NOT always so well reasoned and the arguments not always so well set out, and they descend into mocking / "crying laughing face type" / posts that scream "dick dick dick cock cock" over and over pointedly.

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

And these sentiments get a lot of support from others, too.

Basically, there's quite a lot of "evidence" that suggests to me that this is not at all "just about the issue of self-id". That clearly is a big PART of what the issue is here, but it doesn't seem to be the whole issue, and that seems to be being tip-toed around and that frustrates me.

I can't say I've seen any cock dick posts, can you link examples?

[jaxie]

As for the chorus of "It's just the man's telling the women's wot to fink!!"... Come on guys you can do better than this. Well most of you can anyway.

Just because you aren't aware of the controlling, patronising sexism doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Mystic Mock]

Just because they've not had the op doesn't make them a man

You can't have pre-op Trans people going into the opposite gender's Toilets as they've not had the surgery yet to be that gender, otherwise if I wanted to I could claim to want to be a woman go then go into the Toilets and harass the women in them (not that I actually would) but it definitely becomes a risk imo that shouldn't be experimented.

[Withano]

Of course men are more supportive of it for all the reasons constantly pointed out by women. Isn’t that the point! The fact it needs pointing out is very telling.

They are on this one single website, which was the point I was making. They're not, in general, in the grand scheme of things. They tend to be more resistant and less open to trans issues than women are.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/cumulus_uploads/document/537rxhcloa/US%20Results%20(Transgender%20Issues)%20025%2002.1 0.2017.pdf

A lot of people have jumped to the conclusion of 'huh lol well of course men are okay with it' because of the opinions of like 3? 4? Blokes on this is big brother dot com. Its ridiculous lol, and completely subtracts from any interesting discussion happening.


So this whole 'men telling women' thing is nonsense. It has more to do with age and education if you look at the results from that huge survey a bit closer.

[Vicky.]

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.


By me?

Lily Madigan is not a genuine transsexual. Lily Madigan is a misogynistic knobjockey who has done nothing since gaining his post as 'womans officer' except for actively trying to get women kicked out of the party for acknowledging ****ing biology. If this is what thats about. Yes my thread about him was literred with boy and such, as thats what he is. I actually half think he is a Tory plant, there to destroy the Labour party from the inside.

The weightlifting cheat, I called he yes. I have no idea if he actually has sex dysphoria, however I kind of doubt it and even if he does, its clearly cheating to be competing against female people as a male. I have a lot of contempt for people like that, and its silly to deny he is male. I reckon the commonwelath games will wake a LOT of people up to the crazyness of this actually.

I called Lauren Harries male the other day yes, but the context is a bit important I reckon. I also used she and her for her...but it is undeniable that she is male. Male is a biological term and sex changes are not possible.

If I am being completely honest here, even post SRS transsexual people I still do not generally see as the sex they are trying to be. Because..they aren't. I acknowledge that their dysphoria made them wish to have hormones, or surgery to resemble the opposite sex more and I think it must be horrific tbh to be so at odds with your sexed body that you would need to go to such lengths to feel better about yourself but I feel that way about people with BDD, and to a lesser extent anorexia too.However, when it comes to single sex spaces, no issue with post SRS people using the areas they chose.

Self-ID is the main issue. But I also have issues with a lot of transactivists and their behaviour (and their threats towards me and my children) and much of trans ideology itself actually. I think the whole thing is homophobic and sexist (towards both men and women!). I have issues with certain people who claim they are trans. I have huge issues with giving puberty blockers to children, and the few doctors who prescribe hormones or do irreversible surgeries on under 18s. I have huge issues with trans pressure groups such as mermaids going into primary schools to tell children that you can change the sex you are and that if you follow the incorrect stereotypes you may be trans, and basically teaching antiscience nonsense. I have issues with stonewall lumping in transsexuals with fetishists and such, and feel that a lot of the problems today are coming from that decision (which they appear to stand by). I have issues with the whole disgusting concept of the 'cotton ceiling' and how prevalent it is in the trans community, I think its lesbophobic and just vile and rapey. I have issues with the many people who attempt to shame women into ignoring their concerns on this topic by yelling transphobe or bigot or 'terf' at them. I think thats a comprehensive list of all my problems with this, but I may have missed something out. But on the whole, I have no issue with actual transsexual people. But if having issues with the things I list above makes me transphobic, so be it tbh.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

I really do not see what this has to do with anything at all. I DON'T believe in biological gender really. I mean few things like hormone levels making women tend to be more caring and such, yes. Thats tied into biological sex too though... But generally 'gender' is mainly socially imposed stereotypes. And to believe the 'a man can be born in a womans body' or whatever does require a belief in gendered souls really. Which I don't buy at all. But have always been open to actual proof to show the opposite.

[user104658]

Just because you aren't aware of the controlling, patronising sexism doesn't mean it isn't there.It's a ham-fisted strawman attempt to use supposed misogyny to shut down an opposing argument. I'm not sexist in the slightest and accusing me of Mansplaining or being "a patronising sexist" is not a shortcut to getting me to shut up just because the person I am disagreeing with happens to be female :facepalm:. It's bull**** jaxie and I'm not playing. I wasn't playing when the "mansplainennnn" cries started up a few months ago, and I'm not playing now. It's not going to stop me from saying what I have to say, ever... It is a complete waste of time. Continue to try to do it if you feel like you must but it genuinely is only your own time that you're wasting.

[Vicky.]

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/

This is long, but it explains my views on this all exactly tbh.

Also this

https://fairplayforwomen.com/misogyny_hate_silencing/

And near every article on that site

[Brillopad]

Thankyou Vicky. See, I find the entirety of this post to be totally fair and well-reasoned. It makes a lot of sense, and it's. Well reasoned. I personally feel like the scope of just how many men are going to suddenly declare themselves females just to perv and flash is, perhaps, blown a bit out of proportion... But I do understand the concern, and I do also think the change in law (if it is as extensive as this) is ridiculous.

Where my issue lies, for clarification, is that the posts on this topic are NOT always so well reasoned and the arguments not always so well set out, and they descend into mocking / "crying laughing face type" / posts that scream "dick dick dick cock cock" over and over pointedly.

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

And these sentiments get a lot of support from others, too.

Basically, there's quite a lot of "evidence" that suggests to me that this is not at all "just about the issue of self-id". That clearly is a big PART of what the issue is here, but it doesn't seem to be the whole issue, and that seems to be being tip-toed around and that frustrates me.

So basically you are doing what you accuse others of - and dancing around what you really mean that you think people are being transphobic.

[Cherie]

It's a ham-fisted strawman attempt to use supposed misogyny to shut down an opposing argument. I'm not sexist in the slightest and accusing me of Mansplaining or being "a patronising sexist" is not a shortcut to getting me to shut up just because the person I am disagreeing with happens to be female :facepalm:. It's bull**** jaxie and I'm not playing. I wasn't playing when the "mansplainennnn" cries started up a few months ago, and I'm not playing now. It's not going to stop me from saying what I have to say, ever... It is a complete waste of time. Continue to try to do it if you feel like you must but it genuinely is only your own time that you're wasting.

Welcome to TiBB, being on the other side is a revelation..yes? :laugh:

[Brillopad]

It's a ham-fisted strawman attempt to use supposed misogyny to shut down an opposing argument. I'm not sexist in the slightest and accusing me of Mansplaining or being "a patronising sexist" is not a shortcut to getting me to shut up just because the person I am disagreeing with happens to be female :facepalm:. It's bull**** jaxie and I'm not playing. I wasn't playing when the "mansplainennnn" cries started up a few months ago, and I'm not playing now. It's not going to stop me from saying what I have to say, ever... It is a complete waste of time. Continue to try to do it if you feel like you must but it genuinely is only your own time that you're wasting.

Which is exactly how women feel!

[jaxie]

It's a ham-fisted strawman attempt to use supposed misogyny to shut down an opposing argument. I'm not sexist in the slightest and accusing me of Mansplaining or being "a patronising sexist" is not a shortcut to getting me to shut up just because the person I am disagreeing with happens to be female :facepalm:. It's bull**** jaxie and I'm not playing. I wasn't playing when the "mansplainennnn" cries started up a few months ago, and I'm not playing now. It's not going to stop me from saying what I have to say, ever... It is a complete waste of time. Continue to try to do it if you feel like you must but it genuinely is only your own time that you're wasting.

Of course, the only one not trying to shut down others opinions is you. :nono:

I don't want to shut you or anyone else down, certainly not after my own experiences of attempts to mock and shut me down on this forum. But I am prepared to point out the rife sexism on these threads. However it's not all about you, you could take a leaf there.

[user104658]

You can't have pre-op Trans people going into the opposite gender's Toilets as they've not had the surgery yet to be that gender, otherwise if I wanted to I could claim to want to be a woman go then go into the Toilets and harass the women in them (not that I actually would) but it definitely becomes a risk imo that shouldn't be experimented.See I do understand this argument. In theory. Sort of. If you actually break it down logically it kind of falls apart but I do understand why people would be concerned about it becoming "easier" for women to be made victims

In actual practical terms though, here are the issues;

1) Some real women kinda look like men. So if a Predatory male was, currently, under no law change, to dress as a woman and enter a female toilet or changing area... How do you stop them? Do you ask them to show their genitals on entry? :think:. You simply can't know who is "really" female when they walk into a toilet in the first place. And you can't accuse just because you suspect. So...

2) What exactly do you think is currently stopping a full-on unambiguous bearded male from following a women into a public toilet currently? There isn't an invisible force field that stops them. They can just walk right on in. Is a sign that says "women only" going to stop them? "Oh I was going to sexually assault someone, but this sign says I'm not allowed in." Barmy.

3) You may suggest that it's because then other people can stop them from going in, but if it's a busy area with lots of people around then there's not really much risk of an assault anyway. It would happen when no one else is around and, as above, when no one else is around... A rapist doesn't need to pretend to be a woman to get into the ladies toilets. He can just walk right on in?


So yeah... I suppose I do understand the fear that people may have around this and I'm not trying to downplay that at all - but I also think in rational, practical terms the risk of increased assaults isn't anywhere near as high as is being suggested.

[user104658]

Welcome to TiBB, being on the other side is a revelation..yes? [emoji23]



Which is exactly how women feel!



Of course, the only one not trying to shut down others opinions is you. :nono:

No u.

[Brillopad]

See I do understand this argument. In theory. Sort of. If you actually break it down logically it kind of falls apart but I do understand why people would be concerned about it becoming "easier" for women to be made victims

In actual practical terms though, here are the issues;

1) Some real women kinda look like men. So if a Predatory male was, currently, under no law change, to dress as a woman and enter a female toilet or changing area... How do you stop them? Do you ask them to show their genitals on entry? :think:. You simply can't know who is "really" female when they walk into a toilet in the first place. And you can't accuse just because you suspect. So...

2) What exactly do you think is currently stopping a full-on unambiguous bearded male from following a women into a public toilet currently? There isn't an invisible force field that stops them. They can just walk right on in. Is a sign that says "women only" going to stop them? "Oh I was going to sexually assault someone, but this sign says I'm not allowed in." Barmy.

3) You may suggest that it's because then other people can stop them from going in, but if it's a busy area with lots of people around then there's not really much risk of an assault anyway. It would happen when no one else is around and, as above, when no one else is around... A rapist doesn't need to pretend to be a woman to get into the ladies toilets. He can just walk right on in?


So yeah... I suppose I do understand the fear that people may have around this and I'm not trying to downplay that at all - but I also think in rational, practical terms the risk of increased assaults isn't anywhere near as high as is being suggested.

As less people are likely to challenge men with self-identification in place it is an increased risk and any increased risk is not acceptable. No-one knows for sure until there is a victim - which will be too late for her - but I suppose some would just shrug their shoulders and mumble something about collateral damage! Women would be more aware and more likely to notice a man who was not supposed to be there than one who was. They would be more likely to look out for each other.

[Vicky.]

I am not thrilled with giving predatory males an easier time. Also no actual assault needs to take place for it to be a problem. A guy could just stand there intensely watching everyone get changed..and if the business has adopted 'self ID' (or if self ID becomes law) then theres nothing anyone can do about it, where they can currently complain and have him removed.

Yes some women look masculine, but lets not pretend that its really hard to tell what sex someone is.

The place where this apparent overblown fear of predatory males thing that falls apart though...possibly the most important of the problems here, refuges and prisons. Break it down for me how predatory males can access females in those places currently?

Completely aside from the predatory male aspect of this, I reckon that both sexes deserve some privacy from the opposite sex. I don't think many men would be happy changing clothes with a random woman watching, and vice versa.

[Vicky.]

As less people are likely to challenge men with self-identification in place it is an increased risk and any increased risk is not acceptable. No-one knows for sure until there is a victim - which will be too late for her - but I suppose some would just shrug their shoulders and mumble something about collateral damage! It would also make all women more aware and look out for each other.

Nah. it would be her fault in some way. She was wearing a short dress, she was drunk...etc

[jaxie]

No u.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/08/sexual-assault-women-crime-survey-england-wales-ons-police-figures

The figures show that women are fives times more likely than men to have experienced some kind of sexual assault.

[user104658]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/08/sexual-assault-women-crime-survey-england-wales-ons-police-figures

The figures show that women are fives times more likely than men to have experienced some kind of sexual assault. Who is denying this, and what does this have to do with what I or anyone else has had to say? How is "women get assaulted more!" evidence that only women can have an opinion on this topic and men need to be expelled from the discussion and / or mocked?

[jaxie]

Who is denying this, and what does this have to do with what I or anyone else has had to say? How is "women get assaulted more!" evidence that only women can have an opinion on this topic and men need to be expelled from the discussion and / or mocked?

It's the exhibited lack of understanding I was attempting to address.

[user104658]

Nah. it would be her fault in some way. She was wearing a short dress, she was drunk...etcThis is what I mean by people creating over-the-top strawmen arguments about this. It doesn't do you any favours? Like several posts of really well constructed arguments but then peppered with passive aggressive, pointed hyperbole. Why?

[user104658]

It's the exhibited lack of understanding I was attempting to address.What's given you the impression that I'm unaware that women are more at risk of sexual assault than men?

[Vicky.]

This is what I mean by people creating over-the-top strawmen arguments about this. It doesn't do you any favours? Like several posts of really well constructed arguments but then peppered with passive aggressive, pointed hyperbole. Why?

Is it not true that many people will blame the woman no matter what?! Have you never seen women being effectively blamed for their rapes/assaults? How on earth is this an over the top strawman.

[Brillopad]

Nah. it would be her fault in some way. She was wearing a short dress, she was drunk...etc

Undoubtedly - as we hear it all the time whenever women get raped or assaulted. How dare they go out on their own at night etc!

[user104658]

Is it not true that many people will blame the woman no matter what?! Have you never seen women being effectively blamed for their rapes/assaults? How on earth is this an over the top strawman.There are people who will blame the victim, always, that much is true. Far from the majority in my experience; more like a toxic few. However the way that it was stated is sarcastic and passive aggressive and over-riding the point. In my opinion.

I would also point out that in my experience, the types of comments you mention come from other women far more often than they do from men.

[Vicky.]

Basically this...'predatory men will get into womens areas anyway if they want to' argument...lets put this into another context

Burglars are going to burgle anyway. Why lock our doors?

The reason being, that it makes us feel safer, and it is a deterrent of sorts. It protects us against 'opportunistic burglars' too. It makes us feel we have done all we can to stop such people taking our stuff.

Women are taught by society that they need to protect themselves from men. Not all men of course, but a significant minority. I disagree with blaming women for the behaviour of men, but I agree that it makes sense to do what you can to be safe. We are told to basically, safeguard ourselves. Yet with this one topic, we are supposed to ignore all of our instincts, all of our fears. I don't get it. There is proof that when stores adapt unisex changing, voyeurism shoots up. So clearly there are a lot of people who would not offend usually (despite being able to walk into the opposite sex changing areas) but who do offend when its easier for them to do so for whatever reason. My issue with some of the arguments used on this topic, are that yes, theres technically nothing stopping predators from..being predators...but I am 100% against making it easier for them to be predators, and adopting self-ID will make things easier. We have sex segregation for a reason. And adopting self-ID is effectively ending sex segregation, but dressed up under 'trans rights'. Add the word trans, and some people seem to not be able to actually see the real problem as they automatically feel the need to agree with whatever will apparently give trans people more rights. All the while while not realising that trans is not just shorthand for transsexual...it includes the likes of crossdressers. And Transvestic fetishism is the most common paraphilia among sex offenders too. Worth thinking about really.

[Tom4784]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/feb/08/sexual-assault-women-crime-survey-england-wales-ons-police-figures

The figures show that women are fives times more likely than men to have experienced some kind of sexual assault.

I think it's difficult to gauge how much men are affected by sexual assault since report rates for such crimes tend to be insanely low, I'm not sure you can really get an accurate comparison with that in mind.

I do think women tend to be targeted more but I don't really see the point of drawing comparisons between the sexes when the data at hand will never be truly accurate.

[Vicky.]

There are people who will blame the victim, always, that much is true. Far from the majority in my experience; more like a toxic few. However the way that it was stated is sarcastic and passive aggressive and over-riding the point. In my opinion.

I would also point out that in my experience, the types of comments you mention come from other women far more often than they do from men.

OK thats not how it was meant, apologies. I did not mean that you personally would blame the victim. It was more a general comment tbh

[user104658]

Right; but why not always state it like that, at least in this section Vicky? I really don't want to go back here again but... You yourself are the mod who has made now four (I think?) attempts to "clean up SD's", make it about posts like the one you just made and NOT about posts like your previous ones or the stream of belittling / jibes / opinions disregarded I've had in this thread for having a penis.

I feel like it's worth stating again, as I have in other threads but may be forgotten:

- I don't really agree with untransitioned males entering female toilets and changing areas (I am heavily in favour of self-contained unisex facilities wherever possible)

- I totally agree about the labour officer thing in principle, again its the "angry language" that tips it over into something else

- I also totally agree that male to female trans people should never be eligible to enter female sporting events, as it presents a clear and unfair advantage.



The real debate is getting lost under "something else" and you quite clearly know fine well that that is the major problem with every topic on this section... But again, it just feels like your ideas on that go straight out the window as soon as the topic being discussed is a personal bugbear.

[Vicky.]

OK I am not really understanding what I have done wrong here. Does every post I make need to be an essay? Am I not allowed to say that women do not have penises? What exactly is your problem with my posts here, please be specific. I could of course go into huge essays on every post in SD..but thats holding me to a MUCH higher standard than anyone else on here. I am not allowed to be sarcastic? I am not allowed to make one line posts? I am not allowed to call men men, or to say the word dick? I genuinely am not understanding the issue and if I did have a clear outline of quite what it is you think I should and should not be posting, I could maybe get myself up to your standards. But I won't be censoring my opinions on things to suit others. In SD and on the main forum in general I self censor various insulting posts that I do feel like posting sometimes, I self censor when I go OTT into a rant..and have to delete it rather than post (happens a fair bit :blush2: ), but I refuse to self censor just...opinions that some people happen to not like. Or posts they reckon are a bit too sharp..thats just my posting style and always has been.

[user104658]

OK I am not really understanding what I have done wrong here. Does every post I make need to be an essay? Am I not allowed to say that women do not have penises? What exactly is your problem with my posts here, please be specific. I could of course go into huge essays on every post in SD..but thats holding me to a MUCH higher standard than anyone else on here. I am not allowed to be sarcastic? I am not allowed to make one line posts? I am not allowed to call men men, or to say the word dick? I genuinely am not understanding the issue and if I did have a clear outline of quite what it is you think I should and should not be posting, I could maybe get myself up to your standards.They're YOUR standards, Vicky, read your own topics and posts on "cleaning up this section"?

[Vicky.]

They're YOUR standards, Vicky, read your own topics and posts on "cleaning up this section"?

I have read that, I wrote it. Still not understanding where I am going wrong in your opinion. I don't bait and snipe, I don't insult people (and if I do, I do apologize). I don't make multiple threads on the same topic. I rarely post one word/line replies...still not getting it.

I think your real problem is still that you reckon I permabanned thetruth off my own back. As its been alluded to a few times now and it seems to be then that you seemed having an issue with me. I did not permaban the truth as I had argued with him. His ban had been discussed for literally months in the admin section, and his posts in that topic (not the arguing with me, the posts in general) were just the straw that broke the camels back, so to speak. he got a short ban, and over the course of that night and the following morning, it was decided that now was the time to finally bite the bullet and put a longer ban on him. I understand how it might come across as me just doing it, but no mod just does a permaban because they feel like it. Its a long (too long sometimes) drawn out process and needs near 100% agreement between all staff members.

If the problem is not this, then fair enough..but I feel it maybe needed explained anyway as you do seem to be pretty pissed off about that ban.

[Niamh.]

I assume I'm probably a person you're talking about aswell since you named me along with Vicky in a different thread. Are you saying that I'm transphobic and pretending to be bothered about the impact it's going to have on women or what? If so you can check back along to when the first time it was brought up about trans people using the bathroom of their choice and I know originally it didn't bother me at all, it was only after I did more reading up on it, the whole transsexual vs transgender stuff came about, self IDing etc that I changed my stance on it

[user104658]

Again it's not about the opinions or about anyone being transphobic, it's about the straight up fact that certain "ways of speaking" about this topic are seen as OK that would not be on other topics. I've seen this denied endlessly... By the people making the comments. It's not going away for me; there are huge double standards around this and similar issues and now it's all being intermingled with this recent (and ridiculous) idea that "men can't comment on women stuff".

Can British comment on US stuff?

Can white people comment on race issues?

Can Brillo comment on Muslims? Because its hammered home constantly that that is her right, despite not being a Muslim, and here's a strange one: the people shouting that the loudest are Jaxie and Cherie... And yet here we have in this thread, lo and behold, Brillo, Jaxie and Cherie arguing that I *cannot* comment on this issue as a man. Hmmmmm.

Men can comment on women stuff. That is the nature of debate. And it's being totally overlooked that there's a now constant attempt to shut down this variety of debate.

[Vicky.]

The real debate is getting lost under "something else" and you quite clearly know fine well that that is the major problem with every topic on this section... But again, it just feels like your ideas on that go straight out the window as soon as the topic being discussed is a personal bugbear.

As for this part, my ideas have actually gone right out the window in general. As when I attempted to actually do the stuff I said, there were just a lot of accusations of bias (from both sides) and people moaning. A lot of posts being deleted and ending up with 'why was that deleted' stuff and just generally a massive pain in the arse. I have now decided to just leave this section to burn tbh, as I cannot win no matter what it seems. Infact, I barely do any moderating at all these days because of this same reason. Its just not worth the stress. It will please you to know I have asked to step down a few times, and have just a few days ago again offered to step down to allow new blood. Not sure how that will go really but at the min I am basically a 'normal member' but with a green name.

[Ashley.]

It's a ham-fisted strawman attempt to use supposed misogyny to shut down an opposing argument.

Did you not use transphobia to shut down an opposing argument yesterday?

I have to be honest and say that I increasingly get the impression that the multiple "terrible issues!" people are having with trans, are pretty much just excuses to jump on it because they just plain "don't like the idea". :idc:

Go figure.

[Vicky.]

I don't think men cannot comment, but I agree that men (in general) are not really going to understand this from a womans POV, and in many cases do not even seem to try to. And this is 'proved' time and time again when it always seems to be men who are the ones saying women are overreacting or being 'hysterical' or whatever. Its just not going to affect men to the extent it will affect women.

[Niamh.]

I don't think men cannot comment, but I agree that men (in general) are not really going to understand this from a womans POV, and in many cases do not even seem to try to. And this is 'proved' time and time again when it always seems to be men who are the ones saying women are overreacting or being 'hysterical' or whatever. Its just not going to affect men to the extent it will affect women.

.

[user104658]

I don't think men cannot comment, but I agree that men (in general) are not really going to understand this from a womans POV, and in many cases do not even seem to try to. And this is 'proved' time and time again when it always seems to be men who are the ones saying women are overreacting or being 'hysterical' or whatever. Its just not going to affect men to the extent it will affect women.That doesn't mean that these isn't an element of Over-reaction, does it? Is it valid if a female says there's Over-reaction?

[Cherie]

Again it's not about the opinions or about anyone being transphobic, it's about the straight up fact that certain "ways of speaking" about this topic are seen as OK that would not be on other topics. I've seen this denied endlessly... By the people making the comments. It's not going away for me; there are huge double standards around this and similar issues and now it's all being intermingled with this recent (and ridiculous) idea that "men can't comment on women stuff".

Can British comment on US stuff?

Can white people comment on race issues?

Can Brillo comment on Muslims? Because its hammered home constantly that that is her right, despite not being a Muslim, and here's a strange one: the people shouting that the loudest are Jaxie and Cherie... And yet here we have in this thread, lo and behold, Brillo, Jaxie and Cherie arguing that I *cannot* comment on this issue as a man. Hmmmmm.

Men can comment on women stuff. That is the nature of debate. And it's being totally overlooked that there's a now constant attempt to shut down this variety of debate.


excuse me I never said any such thing, what I did say was you were trying to tell me how to feel about this issue, just like now you are putting words in my mouth that I never said.

You branded practically everyone on this thread who didn't agree with you a closet transphobe for goodness sake

[Vicky.]

That doesn't mean that these isn't an element of Over-reaction, does it? Is it valid if a female says there's Over-reaction?

I don't think theres an element of overreaction at all. Obviously.

Of course there may well be. But I really don't think so.

[user104658]

I don't think theres an element of overreaction at all. Obviously.

Of course there may well be. But I really don't think so.Do you have to agree with an opinion in order for it to be valid?

[Vicky.]

Do you have to agree with an opinion in order for it to be valid?

No?

[kirklancaster]

As for this part, my ideas have actually gone right out the window in general. As when I attempted to actually do the stuff I said, there were just a lot of accusations of bias (from both sides) and people moaning. A lot of posts being deleted and ending up with 'why was that deleted' stuff and just generally a massive pain in the arse. I have now decided to just leave this section to burn tbh, as I cannot win no matter what it seems. Infact, I barely do any moderating at all these days because of this same reason. Its just not worth the stress. It will please you to know I have asked to step down a few times, and have just a few days ago again offered to step down to allow new blood. Not sure how that will go really but at the min I am basically a 'normal member' but with a green name.

:nono: You most certainly must NOT step down Vicky because you are a good moderator.

[jaxie]

Again it's not about the opinions or about anyone being transphobic, it's about the straight up fact that certain "ways of speaking" about this topic are seen as OK that would not be on other topics. I've seen this denied endlessly... By the people making the comments. It's not going away for me; there are huge double standards around this and similar issues and now it's all being intermingled with this recent (and ridiculous) idea that "men can't comment on women stuff".

Can British comment on US stuff?

Can white people comment on race issues?

Can Brillo comment on Muslims? Because its hammered home constantly that that is her right, despite not being a Muslim, and here's a strange one: the people shouting that the loudest are Jaxie and Cherie... And yet here we have in this thread, lo and behold, Brillo, Jaxie and Cherie arguing that I *cannot* comment on this issue as a man. Hmmmmm.

Men can comment on women stuff. That is the nature of debate. And it's being totally overlooked that there's a now constant attempt to shut down this variety of debate.

You are confusing 'cannot comment because you are a man' with 'stop trying to tell us how we think and feel as women because you are not a woman.'

No one has said you can't comment, you are being daft.

[Cherie]

You are confusing 'cannot comment because you are a man' with stop trying to tell us how we think and feel as women because you are not a woman.

No one has said you can't comment, you are being daft.

exactly

[Niamh.]

You are confusing 'cannot comment because you are a man' with 'stop trying to tell us how we think and feel as women because you are not a woman.'

No one has said you can't comment, you are being daft.

Very well put

[user104658]

No?Well your point was that a man's opinion of it being an over reaction is invalid because he is male, so I asked if it would be more valid if a female had that opinion, to which you replied stating that you disagree with the opinion (not answering the question of whether or not the opinion would then be VALID).

So I was left having to assume that the opinion being a valid one (if stated by another female) was in some way linked to whether or not you agree with it?

[Vicky.]

I just cannot imagine women telling blokes they were bigoted for discussing an issue that will affect them in a negative way. And thats basically what you are saying here, that women are pretending this will be a problem in order to hide their transphobia.

Its not transphobia. Its doing what we have been taught to do. Minimizing the risk to ourselves from male people.

[Kizzy]

tbf this is levied at people a lot in different discussions on TiBB so it should come as no surprise really

It's a surprise to me here, I thought people had been very heartfelt in their views, you included.

[user104658]

You are confusing 'cannot comment because you are a man' with 'stop trying to tell us how we think and feel as women because you are not a woman.'

No one has said you can't comment, you are being daft.When have I told you how you think or feel or how you should think or feel? Is my thinking differently to you somehow being confused with me insisting that you should think the same as me? Am I not just stating my own thoughts? Or do we now circle back to "... Well yeah but your thoughts are irrelevant because you aren't female"

Or in other words; I can indeed comment, but if my comments are not in agreement with female commentators, my comments are not relevant.

Is that how this works?

Because again, it sure doesn't seem to be the case when Brillo comments on race issues :think:.

[Niamh.]

It's a surprise to me here, I thought people had been very heartfelt in their views, you included.

yep, in fact pretty much all the women in here seem to share the exact same view which on any subject is almost unheard of, that in itself should make it more obvious that our concerns are coming from a genuine place :shrug:

[Brillopad]

:nono: You most certainly must NOT step down Vicky because you are a good moderator.

:thumbs: Vicky is both respected and liked by many judging by peoples’ reactions to her and her posts generally. The forum would not be the same without her!

The fact she has offered to step down demonstrates how fair she tries to be - but she had better not leave! :fist:

[user104658]

I just cannot imagine women telling blokes they were bigoted for discussing an issue that will affect them in a negative way. And thats basically what you are saying here, that women are pretending this will be a problem in order to hide their transphobia..

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

[Jack_]

The thing for me is, and the reason why I now make a conscious decision to not partake in these debates - is because they're conducted in a really hostile and exclusionary environment. I personally think it's less about your posts Vicky, and more those who agree with you. We went through a stage years ago where people who dared to have some left-field opinions were being belittled and patronised, and I stopped enjoying and contributing to these kind of threads. Then things got better for a time, and we were able to have a more civilised and productive discourse. But now if anything it's WORSE than it was years ago.

Look, I totally, TOTALLY understand why some women feel the way they do about these issues. And I also totally acknowledge and recognise my privilege as a man (and have explicitly done so before when I've decided to partake, or in similar threads - like the feminism one). This is a really emotive, contemporary issue for people on both sides of the argument - it strikes at the core of people's very being and their legitimacy - and that's why I wasn't surprised when the discussion a few days ago ended up heading in a very sour and reactionary direction.

The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content.

This is my favourite topic in the world, I spent a year of my life writing and researching about it. I LOVE talking about this, and have done so with female friends. But that's partly why I don't feel comfortable contributing anymore, because I too have a (completely different, granted) personal stake in it. And when you're too emotionally involved, it is very easy to feel personally slighted by the hostile environment these discussions are now conducted in. I just wish we could have these debates in a more fleshed out, academic, civilised manner...with less of the sniping, the baiting, the sarcasm, the exclusion, the inflammatory language, and the like.

[jaxie]

yep, in fact pretty much all the women in here seem to share the exact same view which on any subject is almost unheard of, that in itself should make it more obvious that our concerns are coming from a genuine place :shrug:

In a way that makes all the trying to shut us down and attacking comments even more upsetting. Because it's a clear to many that there is something here across the board with women and some seem to try to belittle us for it.

[Brillopad]

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

What language TS , as bearing in mind your mention of me and Muslims in a previous post, I am getting the feeling you may be talking about me!

[user104658]

yep, in fact pretty much all the women in here seem to share the exact same view which on any subject is almost unheard of, that in itself should make it more obvious that our concerns are coming from a genuine place :shrug:

There's a time and a place for celebrating this sort of solidarity though... And it isn't a debates forum.





The problem is though, is that if all people are interested in is either a) opinions that they agree with, and/or b) opinions from females...this isn't a debate at all. And if it's not a debate, what is the point of these discussions existing? Because all they read like these days is a bunch of people clapping and back-patting each other, and trying to exclude anyone else they think isn't fit to comment. It's like...you may as well just set up a private group so you can all agree with each other to your heart's content. .

.

[Niamh.]

There's a time and a place for celebrating this sort of solidarity though... And it isn't a debates forum.





.

My post was in relation to your comment implying that we're all a bunch of transphobes pretending we're worried about womens rights though.

[jaxie]

When have I told you how you think or feel or how you should think or feel? Is my thinking differently to you somehow being confused with me insisting that you should think the same as me? Am I not just stating my own thoughts? Or do we now circle back to "... Well yeah but your thoughts are irrelevant because you aren't female"

Or in other words; I can indeed comment, but if my comments are not in agreement with female commentators, my comments are not relevant.

Is that how this works?

Because again, it sure doesn't seem to be the case when Brillo comments on race issues :think:.

Perhaps if there was commenting without finger pointing and boxing people up it would help. Even by using her as an example you are overtly calling Brillo a racist. :shrug: Why is that necessary?

And actually I have disagreed with Brillo before on a few things and said so.

My post was in relation to your comment implying that we're all a bunch of transphobes pretending we're worried about womens rights though.

I'm sorry TS but this is what you do. You aren't the only one but if want to call other's into question then I'm going to be honest with you.

[Vicky.]

Well your point was that a man's opinion of it being an over reaction is invalid because he is male, so I asked if it would be more valid if a female had that opinion, to which you replied stating that you disagree with the opinion (not answering the question of whether or not the opinion would then be VALID).

So I was left having to assume that the opinion being a valid one (if stated by another female) was in some way linked to whether or not you agree with it?

That wasn't really my point. I don't think anyones opinion on any topic is 'invalid'. My point was that it seems to be men telling women that their fears are unfounded or an overreaction. And the reason for this would be on the whole, that a man just cannot see things from a womans POV. Just like a woman could not see things from a mans POV. You can try but can never really understand. So men see this as women overreacting, fair enough. But given it will be women who this actually affects, I really do not think its right for men to be yelling transphobe and bigot at women who express concerns.

[Vicky.]

No it isnt. Again, as I have said many times and keeps being overlooked (purposefully because it fits a narrative?) it's the language being used that is coming across as transphobic, not the various opinions, which I have even outright stated that I agree with.

The language being, men boys, dick and so on?

People have their own personal style of posting. Some posters, like ammi and jack for example, will always make an attempt to say they have looked at both sides, will always put points across in a softer kind of way. Others such as myself and brillo are more blunt and to the point.

My language is my language tbh, and my posting style is my posting style. I am still not really getting how using boy and man about a boy or a man is transphobic language :shrug:

[Kizzy]

Thankyou Vicky. See, I find the entirety of this post to be totally fair and well-reasoned. It makes a lot of sense, and it's. Well reasoned. I personally feel like the scope of just how many men are going to suddenly declare themselves females just to perv and flash is, perhaps, blown a bit out of proportion... But I do understand the concern, and I do also think the change in law (if it is as extensive as this) is ridiculous.

Where my issue lies, for clarification, is that the posts on this topic are NOT always so well reasoned and the arguments not always so well set out, and they descend into mocking / "crying laughing face type" / posts that scream "dick dick dick cock cock" over and over pointedly.

There have also been threads where genuine transsexuals have been repeatedly refered to as he / him / man / boy.

AND the fact that you've stated quite clearly that you don't really believe in the concept of biological gender beyond the physical and have posted skeptically about "souls" etc.

And these sentiments get a lot of support from others, too.

Basically, there's quite a lot of "evidence" that suggests to me that this is not at all "just about the issue of self-id". That clearly is a big PART of what the issue is here, but it doesn't seem to be the whole issue, and that seems to be being tip-toed around and that frustrates me.

Oh so the mocking, laughing, rolling eyes smileys are annoying you? Welcome to my world.
So can we have an example of one of these posts? quote them... If it's not myself or Vicky that you have taken exception to that narrows it down a little.

I don't know how souls relate to the physical body but in all fairness I haven't seen any support for that theory either, that was as far as I see a very personal view.

As you've shown in relation to the proposed law changes you haven't the scope of information to have an opinion, therefore I fail to see how that elevates you to a position to criticise anyone that has and does take this proposal very seriously.

I would go as far as to say it says something about your own sense of self importance that you feel you can challenge the views of those concerned while you yourself plead ignorance.

[Kizzy]

As for the chorus of "It's just the man's telling the women's wot to fink!!"... Come on guys you can do better than this. Well most of you can anyway.

Ah ahhhh... you said no mocking.

No it's worse than that, you are making presumptions on what others are thinking.

[user104658]

:shrug: if people can't see the issue with this thread, they aren't going to, I guess. TIBB serious debates is an off limits zone for actual debates surrounding trans issues or feminism. Duly noted.