Is sex tea?...

[Kizzy]

u7Nii5w2FaI

[Vicky.]

I have seen this before and its a pretty decent analogy tbh.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well i am pretty sure i dont ask for tea in my sleep but i know that when i woke up on Sunday I seemed to already be drinking some

:idc:


This does not happen when MOTD is on, it was just international week you see

[Niamh.]

Well i am pretty sure i dont ask for tea in my sleep but i know that when i woke up on Sunday I seemed to already be drinking some

:idc:


This does not happen when MOTD is on, it was just international week you see

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjHKvjqt5pssL99C/giphy.gif

[Morgan.]

Watched this in class today

[user104658]

Except that the issue of consent that usually comes up isn't covered in this video at all, which is;

What happens if someone has been drinking, enthusiastically declares that they do indeed want tea, happily drinks the tea, and then wakes up the next day feeling unwell and says "Urgh... I didn't want that tea after all... I shouldn't have had the tea."

Not being flippant here, just pointing out that in the VAST majority of cases, people do already know that "no means no" and that you shouldn't sexually assault people in their sleep. The issues of consent that need to be addressed surround the issues of "what constitutes capacity to consent", "How drunk is too drunk", "Does ANY inebriation = too drunk" etc.

There seems to be a lot of confusion arising from that question. Was hoping the video would go there but it didn't :shrug:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Except that the issue of consent that usually comes up isn't covered in this video at all, which is;

What happens if someone has been drinking, enthusiastically declares that they do indeed want tea, happily drinks the tea, and then wakes up the next day feeling unwell and says "Urgh... I didn't want that tea after all... I shouldn't have had the tea."

Not being flippant here, just pointing out that in the VAST majority of cases, people do already know that "no means no" and that you shouldn't sexually assault people in their sleep. The issues of consent that need to be addressed surround the issues of "what constitutes capacity to consent", "How drunk is too drunk", "Does ANY inebriation = too drunk" etc.

There seems to be a lot of confusion arising from that question. Was hoping the video would go there but it didn't :shrug:.

I expect that will be covered in

Tea II "The hangover"

[Daniel-X]

I’ve seen this a few times in school and college and think it’s pretty decent tbf at getting the message out.

[jaxie]

It's a good start on the issue of consent and kind of entertaining. Good analogy.

[Kizzy]

Except that the issue of consent that usually comes up isn't covered in this video at all, which is;

What happens if someone has been drinking, enthusiastically declares that they do indeed want tea, happily drinks the tea, and then wakes up the next day feeling unwell and says "Urgh... I didn't want that tea after all... I shouldn't have had the tea."

Not being flippant here, just pointing out that in the VAST majority of cases, people do already know that "no means no" and that you shouldn't sexually assault people in their sleep. The issues of consent that need to be addressed surround the issues of "what constitutes capacity to consent", "How drunk is too drunk", "Does ANY inebriation = too drunk" etc.

There seems to be a lot of confusion arising from that question. Was hoping the video would go there but it didn't :shrug:.


Why do you feel the need to flip the debate, it states clearly that too drunk is passed out, so why question that?

What YOU are wanting discussed are false accusations of rape, yes that happens but is it the VAST majority of cases?.... No.

If you can't or won't debate THIS issue for whatever reason then that's fine start your own thread to debate YOUR issue.

[bots]

do we really need to reduce things to this level for people to understand what no means? If it is necessary, it doesn't say a lot for our education system.

[Crimson Dynamo]

do we really need to reduce things to this level for people to understand what no means? If it is necessary, it doesn't say a lot for our education system.

Is it not aimed at kids on the spectrum who find it hard to decipher things like this?

[user104658]

do we really need to reduce things to this level for people to understand what no means? If it is necessary, it doesn't say a lot for our education system.

It's based on the (mostly false) premise that a lot of sexual assault happens because the perpetrator doesn't understand that what they're doing is wrong, and that if they were taught that it's not OK, they wouldn't do it. When in actuality, they are well aware that they shouldn't be doing it, but at the time they just don't care.

Educational videos outlining what explicit consent is / isn't are simply not very effective. Areas that DO need tackling are things like "fuzzy" consent, consent under inebriation (NOT to the point of being passed out...), withdrawal of consent (which the video does briefly cover). Also the issue of "pressuring for consent" - which is an area where some people definitely DO need some education.

[Kizzy]

do we really need to reduce things to this level for people to understand what no means? If it is necessary, it doesn't say a lot for our education system.

:/ So it's schools fault if our children don't comprehend the issue of consent... How?

[Vicky.]

It's based on the (mostly false) premise that a lot of sexual assault happens because the perpetrator doesn't understand that what they're doing is wrong, and that if they were taught that it's not OK, they wouldn't do it. When in actuality, they are well aware that they shouldn't be doing it, but at the time they just don't care.

Educational videos outlining what explicit consent is / isn't are simply not very effective. Areas that DO need tackling are things like "fuzzy" consent, consent under inebriation (NOT to the point of being passed out...), withdrawal of consent (which the video does briefly cover). Also the issue of "pressuring for consent" - which is an area where some people definitely DO need some education.
I think that covers that pretty well?

I think in a lot of cases, people actually don't quite realise that what they are doing is rape. Stuff like coercion and that as you say. Thats fuzzy rape IMO. Like, if person1 bugs and bugs and bugs and sulks and sulks, then bugs some more until person 2 gives in, thats not really consent. While technically person 2 may not actually say no, you have pressured them into it.

What happens if someone has been drinking, enthusiastically declares that they do indeed want tea, happily drinks the tea, and then wakes up the next day feeling unwell and says "Urgh... I didn't want that tea after all... I shouldn't have had the tea."


Well in that case, the consent was there so not seeing what the issue is? Yeah regret may also be there, but consent was there at the time.

The only time this would be an issue, is if person 1 was clearly out of their mind in drink. But in that case...it would be fairly easy to tell. The only time that becomes fuzzy, is if both people are seriously seriously drunk...in which case I don't think sex could even take place? Unless its only the men I know who cannot get it up when very very drunk :S

[Marsh.]

What if they ask for tea and I make them coffee but don't realise what I've done until the cup is half empty?

[Crimson Dynamo]

What if they ask for tea and I make them coffee but don't realise what I've done until the cup is half empty?

refill with cream and hope they dont notice

https://media.giphy.com/media/M8Oyl5kERXxv2/giphy.gif

[Niamh.]

What if they ask for tea and I make them coffee but don't realise what I've done until the cup is half empty?

:laugh2:

[Vicky.]

Also I know this is only one case, but it seems classes on consent can work

https://www.ndtv.com/education/how-consent-classes-in-kenya-reduced-cases-of-sexual-harassment-1767943

In a world full of casual misogyny and sexism, imagine what effect it can have if boys were taught to respect girls and women. An example has emerged from Nairobi, Kenya, where 'consent classes' have changed young children perspectives on gender. The classes are conducted as part of quasi-experimental and randomized control trials in Kenya and Malawi by No Means No Worldwide, Ujaama Africa, UK Department for International Development. The classes are being conducted since 2009 and have reached about 180,000 boys and girls.

Following these classes, there has been an average of 51% decrease in the incidents of rape. Also, the percentage of boys who intervened in an incident of harassment increased from 26% to 74%.

[Matthew.]

assisted in a few pshe lessons where this has been shown - always same response “haha wtf does tea have to do with shaggi… oh wait i get it now”

[user104658]

I think that covers that pretty well?


It goes into physical force a lot more than verbal coercion though... as in, it's not always about picking up the cup and pouring it on someone's face. I think a lot of education is needed around verbal pressure, as I genuinely believe there are a LOT of people (male and female) who believe it's acceptable to "push" quite firmly. So in this analogy it would be like... "Oh go on... it's really GOOD tea, I promise. You won't regret drinking this tea. This tea is totally worth your while. Why do you still not want this lovely tea?" and then, the step further, can split two ways:

1) "Are you sure? Well... I've put a lot of effort into this tea you know. Why did you make yourself out to be a tea drinker? Do you even LIKE tea? I'm going to tell everyone that you hate tea."

OR

2) ":( No one ever wants my tea. What's wrong with my tea? I try really hard but people just never want tea with me. Am I ever going to make good tea? Is my tea really that offputting? I'm really upset. What would help? Well if you would just TRY some tea..?"


I personally don't think that any level of this is acceptable, but it clearly happens a lot. I certainly know several guys who frequently used tactics like that whith girls. And I know at least one girl who would "pester" / "guilt" a friend of mine into sex almost every weekend, knowing full well that he was never happy about it the next day.

[Beso]

Should stick a stick willy on the stick man.

[user104658]

Should stick a stick willy on the stick man.You can always be relied on for some insight into the pertinent issues, Parmy :joker:

[Marsh.]

Why haven't they ripped a hole in the lady stick?

[Kizzy]

It goes into physical force a lot more than verbal coercion though... as in, it's not always about picking up the cup and pouring it on someone's face. I think a lot of education is needed around verbal pressure, as I genuinely believe there are a LOT of people (male and female) who believe it's acceptable to "push" quite firmly. So in this analogy it would be like... "Oh go on... it's really GOOD tea, I promise. You won't regret drinking this tea. This tea is totally worth your while. Why do you still not want this lovely tea?" and then, the step further, can split two ways:

1) "Are you sure? Well... I've put a lot of effort into this tea you know. Why did you make yourself out to be a tea drinker? Do you even LIKE tea? I'm going to tell everyone that you hate tea."

OR

2) ":( No one ever wants my tea. What's wrong with my tea? I try really hard but people just never want tea with me. Am I ever going to make good tea? Is my tea really that offputting? I'm really upset. What would help? Well if you would just TRY some tea..?"


I personally don't think that any level of this is acceptable, but it clearly happens a lot. I certainly know several guys who frequently used tactics like that whith girls. And I know at least one girl who would "pester" / "guilt" a friend of mine into sex almost every weekend, knowing full well that he was never happy about it the next day.

That is a more sensitive issue that would be approached with a whole different set of safeguarding techniques, you can't explain every scenario with stick people and tea analogies.

[Marsh.]

That is a more sensitive issue that would be approached with a whole different set of safeguarding techniques, you can't explain every scenario with stick people and tea analogies.

So if they can't cover the entire topic of Sex and Consent, maybe they should use a different analogy altogether?

Although IMO TS did a good job of extending the analogy to those more extreme examples, so the video could be longer. :think:

[Kizzy]

So if they can't cover the entire topic of Sex and Consent, maybe they should use a different analogy altogether?

Why should they... Bullying is a generalised topic but you wouldn't tackle online or psychological bullying the same way as physical would you?

[Marsh.]

Why should they...

To highlight rape/bullying isn't just physical.
It might feed into the misconception that rape is merely literally forcing someone into sex by physically restraining or beating them.

Bullying is a generalised topic but you wouldn't tackle online or psychological bullying the same way as physical would you?

No, but they would be included in the same topic when discussing "bullying".

Or it would be separated into "Physical" and "Psychological".

But like I said, I think the tea analogy was actually perfect IMO for explaining the verbal coercion and guilt-tripping aspects as it would highlight how ridiculous and obvious it is trying to force someone into something they simply don't want to do. I don't know why they left it out.

[Kizzy]

No, but they would be included in the same topic when discussing "bullying".

Or it would be separated into "Physical" and "Psychological".

But like I said, I think the tea analogy was actually perfect IMO for explaining the verbal coercion and guilt-tripping aspects as it would highlight how ridiculous and obvious it is trying to force someone into something they simply don't want to do. I don't know why they left it out.

I don't agree I think coercion has to be handled more sensitively.

[Maru]

amK4U4pCTB8

[Marsh.]

I don't agree I think coercion has to be handled more sensitively.

Rape is rape. If understanding comes from a silly cartoon of a stick man then it's great. Some of the very basic misunderstandings and misconceptions that come with complex emotional and physical crimes like rape are actually astounding. If it can be tackled by simple examples, then that's not a bad thing.

You can get into the details with them sensitively, but to highlight it and get everyone on the same page of understanding, it's a good method.

[Kizzy]

Rape is rape. If understanding comes from a silly cartoon of a stick man then it's great. Some of the very basic misunderstandings and misconceptions that come with complex emotional and physical crimes like rape are actually astounding. If it can be tackled by simple examples, then that's not a bad thing.

You can get into the details with them sensitively, but to highlight it and get everyone on the same page of understanding, it's a good method.

Is it?... Thanks for that.

[Marsh.]

Is it?... Thanks for that.

A petty quip rather than a response. Ok.

[Kizzy]

A petty quip rather than a response. Ok.

Is 'rape is rape' not a quip?

[user104658]

explain every scenario with stick people and tea analogies.

No but that's a new Chat & Games thread if I ever heard one...

[Kizzy]

chatphobic :idc:

[Marsh.]

Is 'rape is rape' not a quip?

No. :umm2:

I was responding that rape in all its forms is still part of the same central topic and so will/should be covered in the same lesson. As I said earlier, it helps with misconceptions that rape is all "Strangers physically attacking you at night in a dark alley" and actual understand the broader topic of consent. Simple things like this help with that.


If you don't want to respond to that and just highlight three words to misconstrue as an insult that's your prerogative.

[Kizzy]

No. :umm2:

I was responding that rape in all its forms is still part of the same central topic and so will/should be covered in the same lesson. As I said earlier, it helps with misconceptions that rape is all "Strangers physically attacking you at night in a dark alley" and actual understand the broader topic of consent. Simple things like this help with that.


If you don't want to respond to that and just highlight three words to misconstrue as an insult that's your prerogative.

You can't help patonising in every post, were you to stop that I might take you more seriously.

As I said like bullying it is part of a central topic, I don't agree it can be as I don't see the 'rape is rape' connection.
If like you say there are facets to it, rape is not rape....

[Marsh.]

You can't help patonising in every post, were you to stop that I might take you more seriously.

As I said like bullying it is part of a central topic, I don't agree it can be as I don't see the 'rape is rape' connection.
If like you say there are facets to it, rape is not rape....

If you can't see it, why am I being accused of patronising you by trying to explain it?

Rape is rape. Whether physical force or emotional blackmail, it is rape. That's the whole point of the misconceptions being dealt with all at once and together. Discuss them. Rape isn't just from strangers in strange places but can happen in relationships in your own bedroom type of thing that a lot of people (especially young ones) simply won't comprehend. You see it in a lot of reactions to news stories when you get some people asking "How can it be rape? He's her husband" or "She led him on. She took him home from the club, how can she have wanted anything other than sex?" etc etc. So, there's valid reasons.

So, no, it's not/was not about you. It was directly related to my view on this discussion. Whether you take them seriously, I couldn't care less. I'm normally told not to quote you anyway so it doesn't matter to me that you take me seriously or otherwise.

[Kizzy]

If you can't see it, why am I being accused of patronising you by trying to explain it?

Rape is rape. Whether physical force or emotional blackmail, it is rape. That's the whole point of the misconceptions being dealt with all at once and together. Discuss them. Rape isn't just from strangers in strange places but can happen in relationships in your own bedroom type of thing that a lot of people (especially young ones) simply won't comprehend. You see it in a lot of reactions to news stories when you get some people asking "How can it be rape? He's her husband" or "She led him on. She took him home from the club, how can she have wanted anything other than sex?" etc etc. So, there's valid reasons.

So, no, it's not/was not about you. It was directly related to my view on this discussion. Whether you take them seriously, I couldn't care less. I'm normally told not to quote you anyway so it doesn't matter to me that you take me seriously or otherwise.


Are you schooling me in rape?...

All the different situations in which rape could happen was my reasoning behind my position that rape is not rape.

[Marsh.]

*makes a comment*

"Stop patronising me"

*explains comment*

"Are you schooling me?"

Laters Kizzy.

[Kizzy]

Why do you keep going on about strangers..... Do you think I'm not aware of these things?

Seeing as you're back to patronising yes let's end the discussion there.

[Marsh.]

Why do you keep going on about strangers..... Do you think I'm not aware of these things?

No, we're discussing how people are and can be educated about rape and the complexities around consent but if you're going to slice out isolated words and accuse me of "schooling" "patronising" or, god forbid, "Mansplaining" you then there's not much point. :shrug:

[Beso]

You can always be relied on for some insight into the pertinent issues, Parmy :joker:

Well all the kids will be looking at it thinking mummys always making daddy tea..sometimes blackmailing the married old fool to drink the tea.

[waterhog]

I am going to do one of these adverts for my poetry - I can write it but no one has to read it.

g2g - cup of tea at door.