Pensioner bailed after arrest over fatal stabbing of intruder

[arista]

In Ireland
if a intruder commits a crime in your home
you can Kill him


[A 78-year-old arrested over the death
of an intruder stabbed to death
in his home has been bailed.
Named as Richard Osborn-Brooks,
the pensioner was held on Wednesday
on suspicion of murdering a suspected
burglar in Hither Green, southeast London.
He has been bailed until May pending
further enquiries, Scotland Yard said.]

https://news.sky.com/story/pensioner-bailed-after-arrest-over-fatal-stabbing-of-intruder-11317362



2 Men broke in his home
One stayed downstairs
the Other criminal went upstairs.
Well done the 78 year old fella
reported as ramming a screw driver in the
criminal.

That criminal ran out in the street
and the other criminal got in his van to lift
him in. But failed to lift him up.
The Driver Criminal is still on the run


https://d2kmm3vx031a1h.cloudfront.net/NBLgvRSPuQrL6vkobYWQ_0504%20Metro%202.JPG

[kirklancaster]

In Ireland
if a intruder commits a crime in your home
you can Kill him


[A 78-year-old arrested over the death
of an intruder stabbed to death
in his home has been bailed.
Named as Richard Osborn-Brooks,
the pensioner was held on Wednesday
on suspicion of murdering a suspected
burglar in Hither Green, southeast London.
He has been bailed until May pending
further enquiries, Scotland Yard said.]

https://news.sky.com/story/pensioner-bailed-after-arrest-over-fatal-stabbing-of-intruder-11317362



2 Men broke in his home
One stayed downstairs
the Other criminal went upstairs.
Well done the 78 year old fella
reported as ramming a screw driver in the
criminal.

That criminal ran out in the street
and the other criminal got in his van to lift
him in. But failed to lift him up.


Its on every front page

:clap1::clap1::clap1: My thoughts EXACTLY Arista.

[Oliver_W]

Why was the pensioner even arrested for that? In my opinion, the moment you force your way into someone else's home with ill intent, your life is forfeit, and if you don't make it out alive, well that's on your head friendo.

[arista]

Why was the pensioner even arrested for that? In my opinion, the moment you force your way into someone else's home with ill intent, your life is forfeit, and if you don't make it out alive, well that's on your head friends.


Its normal
until they find out all the facts.

At least he is on Bail , now

[Niamh.]

Bloody hell, that poor man. Well done to him though at 78 years of age to defend himself like that

[smudgie]

Two burglars enter a property, one is armed with a screwdriver, a pensioner stabs the armed burglar whilst defending his home with his disabled wife inside...give him a medal for his bravery I say.

[Cherie]

Two burglars enter a property, one is armed with a screwdriver, a pensioner stabs the armed burglar whilst defending his home with his disabled wife inside...give him a medal for his bravery I say.

agree, this couple were targetted because of their vulnerability, no one breaks into the home of a burly bloke with a rottweiler at midnight. He should be paraded on a bus, no one breaks into a house armed with a screwdriver if they don't expect to use it.

He has been bailed now at least.

[arista]

https://e3.365dm.com/18/04/1096x616/skynews-henry-vincent-burglar_4274193.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180405164305
H.Vincent ,37, Criminal with a long record
Now Dead.
https://news.sky.com/story/intruder-killed-in-suspected-burglary-was-wanted-by-police-11317921
Police were after him for another old person home burglary

Again well done the 78 year old fella
protecting his home

[Kazanne]

I agree that this guy should not be charged with any offence ,he was probably really scared for his own life and that of his disabled wife,good on him I say,these criminals need a taste of their own medicine,you live by the sword ,you die by the sword.

[Barry.]

Why is self defence different here than the USA?

[Ninastar]

Imagine going through the trauma of being robbed in the middle of night, and then having to go through the trauma of being arrested/getting thrown in jail for literally defending your own life

Absolutely ridiculous

[Oliver_W]

Why is self defence different here than the USA?

Because they have the right for self-preservation in the USA.

[Vicky.]

****ing ridiculous this mind. The intruders could have killed him and his wife for gods sake! He is brave for tackling them, especially at his age. Should be getting a medal, not a record. I remember a story from a while back where some farmer dude had shot someone breaking in and was done for it. the law is ****ed up in so many places :(

[Oliver_W]

****ing ridiculous this mind. The intruders could have killed him and his wife for gods sake! He is brave for tackling them, especially at his age. Should be getting a medal, not a record. I remember a story from a while back where some farmer dude had shot someone breaking in and was done for it. the law is ****ed up in so many places :(

Ohh that was like ten years ago, at least? I remember the dramatisations for the news etc made it look like the farmer was randomly shooting them down for no reason, and they were poor trapped fish in a barrel.

[Vicky.]

Ohh that was like ten years ago, at least? I remember the dramatisations for the news etc made it look like the farmer was randomly shooting them down for no reason, and they were poor trapped fish in a barrel.

Yeah it was a long time ago..but it stuck in my mind because it was so bloody horrible. I would kill an intruder in my house in a second if I could. Especially with having the kids here.

[Niamh.]

Because they have the right for self-preservation in the USA.You have the same right here in Ireland aswell. There was case similar to this one a few years back involving an elderly farmer who shot and killed an intruder and had to stand trial, they changed the law because of that

[Vicky.]

You have the same right here in Ireland aswell. There was case similar to this one a few years back involving an elderly farmer who shot and killed an intruder and had to stand trial, they changed the law because of that

That may be the one I was thinking of..

[Niamh.]

That may be the one I was thinking of..He wasn't convicted though but he did have to stand trial. He shot the guy on the back though as he was leaving but the poor guy had been harassed by them for months

[GiRTh]

Are you talking about Tony Martin? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer))

[Vicky.]

Yeah I think it might be that. I remember there was hell on about what 'reasonable force' is whilst someone is breaking into your house. I would say any force is reasonable in those circumstances

[Niamh.]

Are you talking about Tony Martin? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer))This is the case I'm talking about in Ireland and the reason our law changed https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.independent.ie/irish-news/farmer-shot-intruder-as-he-limped-away-after-beating-26349708.html#ampshare=https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/farmer-shot-intruder-as-he-limped-away-after-beating-26349708.html

[GiRTh]

I was surprised Martin spent so long in Prison.

[user104658]

Err TBH Tony Martin is a very different situation - he shot a fleeing boy in the back for one, and more importantly, it was an illegally held shotgun.

[DemolitionRed]

Its normal
until they find out all the facts.

At least he is on Bail , now

This ^

[DemolitionRed]

****ing ridiculous this mind. The intruders could have killed him and his wife for gods sake! He is brave for tackling them, especially at his age. Should be getting a medal, not a record. I remember a story from a while back where some farmer dude had shot someone breaking in and was done for it. the law is ****ed up in so many places :(

That was a seriously fcuked up case. He was an elderly man who had literally barricaded himself into his house because he'd been broken into so many times.

[Tozzie]

if that guy gets a sentence for defending himself and his wife and home then there should be a public outcry for his release. No one has a right to go into ones home without invite and we shouldn't have to live in fear for our own lives. The amount of crimes in the area I live is making me seriously consider investing in CCTV. What a nightmare

[Oliver_W]

Err TBH Tony Martin is a very different situation - he shot a fleeing boy in the back for one, and more importantly, it was an illegally held shotgun.

A farmer owning a gun? Which he never actually did anything wrong with? Oh noes.

[user104658]

A farmer owning a gun? Which he never actually did anything wrong with? Oh noes.It was illegally owned because he had specifically been banned from owning them.

[Ammi]

...Tony Martin wasn’t elderly ...he’s a local-ish guy, from Norfolk...I think he’s in his 70s now but that was all in 1999...as TS said, it was an illegal shotgun and he shot the younger burglar in the back as he was trying to get out through the window...he also shot them both in the legs as they were trying to flea as well..he had apparently ‘bragged’ that he would shoot their heads off or some such thing if any came again onto his property...anyways, he was later diagnosed Aspergers with paranoia tendencies ..so diminished responsibilities.and his sentence was reduced ...


...he was though found in possession of an illegal firearm again only a few years ago, I read...which is a bit of a worry with his Aspergers and paranoid tendencies...

[Ammi]

...the prosecution said he had ‘prepared’ for intruders ..rather than ‘secured’ against them...

[Brother Leon]

He’ll be charged, but very unlikely he’s convicted. I know someone that was in a similar situation, but he had to stand trial for Attempted Murder instead of Murder/Manslaughter as the intruder didn’t die. .

[Northern Monkey]

Good lad.If his wife was upstairs too and one intruder cornered him in the kitchen while the other went up near his misses i can see why he panicked.
If some arseholes broke into my gaff with my misses and kids in i’d stab or beat the **** out of them.

[Cherie]

the burglars family are now saying he didn't deserve to die, and no he didn't and he would be alive if he didn't break into an OAPs house and terrorise them and try to steal their possessions.

[Northern Monkey]

the burglars family are now saying he didn't deserve to die, and no he didn't and he would be alive if he didn't break into an OAPs house and terrorise them and try to steal their possessions.

The choices we make.
I could say I didn’t deserve to die if i went and tried kidnapping a bear cub with its mum hanging around....

[Oliver_W]

the burglars family are now saying he didn't deserve to die, and no he didn't and he would be alive if he didn't break into an OAPs house and terrorise them and try to steal their possessions.

No-one deserves anything, and if you force your way into someone else's home, anything that happens to you is your own fault.

[Niamh.]

the burglars family are now saying he didn't deserve to die, and no he didn't and he would be alive if he didn't break into an OAPs house and terrorise them and try to steal their possessions.

Preying elderly and disabled people, scum of the earth

[user104658]

No-one deserves anything, and if you force your way into someone else's home, anything that happens to you is your own fault.

That's my thoughts there really, it's not that he "deserved to die", like you wouldn't give him the death sentence for it if he had been arrested... but, he made the decision to risk his life when he broke into someone's home so whether or not he "deserved it" is kind of a moot point. He's still responsible for his own death.

Someone who tries to run across a busy motorway "deserves" to die even less than a burglar, but it still isn't the fault of the driver that hits them.

[Niamh.]

That's my thoughts there really, it's not that he "deserved to die", like you wouldn't give him the death sentence for it if he had been arrested... but, he made the decision to risk his life when he broke into someone's home so whether or not he "deserved it" is kind of a moot point. He's still responsible for his own death.

Someone who tries to run across a busy motorway "deserves" to die even less than a burglar, but it still isn't the fault of the driver that hits them.

Yeah pretty much. If you're breaking into someones house, a parent with kids upstairs etc don't know what your intentions are, you may just be thinking I'll steal their TV and make my way out or they could be some psycho who's planning on murdering you all in your beds, so what do you do? If my kids are upstairs I'd be making sure that person doesn't get back up again

[user104658]

Yeah pretty much. If you're breaking into someones house, a parent with kids upstairs etc don't know what your intentions are, you may just be thinking I'll steal their TV and make my way out or they could be some psycho who's planning on murdering you all in your beds, so what do you do? If my kids are upstairs I'd be making sure that person doesn't get back up again

True, the only reason I have a bit of an issue with the Tony Martin case is that it was proven that he shot people who were fleeing... which just doesn't sit well with me at all. It's an execution out of anger, not self-defense.

But if I heard something in the night and went out to find some bloke walking up the stairs, I'd sure as **** be kicking him right back down them and there's a pretty solid wall at the bottom :think:.

[Ammi]

True, the only reason I have a bit of an issue with the Tony Martin case is that it was proven that he shot people who were fleeing... which just doesn't sit well with me at all. It's an execution out of anger, not self-defense.

But if I heard something in the night and went out to find some bloke walking up the stairs, I'd sure as **** be kicking him right back down them and there's a pretty solid wall at the bottom :think:.

..yeah he did, Tony Martin..but he was diagnosed as Aspergers as well../..diminished responsibility...that’s not excusing but his reasoning wasn’t of ‘sound mind’ either...they were travellers I believe, he’d been having issues with travellers trespassing for a while ...and there were threats to kill him from the travelling community as well after the death....so it’s a complicated case which can’t be compared to the OP case....

[Sticks]

The Tony Martin case made self defence illegal and decriminalised burglary. At a parole hearing, because Tony Martin said he would do the same again, his parole was denied with the official reason that "People going about their lawful business need to be protected" ergo self defence,is illegal and burglary is a lawful occupation. This from Case Law in the UK

This means this pensioner will be tried for murder and the jury will be required to convict due to case law, as the burglars were about their lawful occupation.

Also if a burglar injures themselves on your property, you can be held liable in any civil case.

If a burglar wants to take your stuff and it is heavy, you may have to assist in carrying it out for them, so they are not injured.

[user104658]

If a burglar wants to take your stuff and it is heavy, you may have to assist in carrying it out for them, so they are not injured.

And if a burglar brings along his pet fairies, you may be legally obliged to offer them a small refreshment to ensure they don't become parched.

[Sticks]

And if a burglar brings along his pet fairies, you may be legally obliged to offer them a small refreshment to ensure they don't become parched.

Exactly! :nono:

[AnnieK]

I was told by someone (who said that they had been told by a policeman) that if you do confront a burglar and overpower them by physical means you should make sure they are found in your bedroom (or at least upstairs) as you are less likely to get charged if they are upstairs in your home when you attack them. Don't know how true it is - and don't want to test it out particularly

[Sticks]

I believe there was a case once where an armed robber tried to hold up a sub post office with a knife. There was a struggle and the robber was stabbed to death with his own knife and the sub postmaster was put on trial for murder.

[Niamh.]

True, the only reason I have a bit of an issue with the Tony Martin case is that it was proven that he shot people who were fleeing... which just doesn't sit well with me at all. It's an execution out of anger, not self-defense.

But if I heard something in the night and went out to find some bloke walking up the stairs, I'd sure as **** be kicking him right back down them and there's a pretty solid wall at the bottom :think:.

I don't know anything about the Tony Martin case, the one I was talking about, i guess was similar in that he followed the guy out and shot him dead (possibly in the back) but I could still understand why he did it (his gun was legal) There was more of a back story with it, it was a group of travelers who had been harassing him for a while, breaking into his property and terrorising him basically. He had previously reported them and really was at his wits end

[Cherie]

I don't know anything about the Tony Martin case, the one I was talking about, i guess was similar in that he followed the guy out and shot him dead (possibly in the back) but I could still understand why he did it (his gun was legal) There was more of a back story with it, it was a group of travelers who had been harassing him for a while, breaking into his property and terrorising him basically. He had previously reported them and really was at his wits end

Similar story with Tony Martin he had been broken into many times though the police disputed that claim

[jaxie]

I was stunned by this story the other day. It is incredibly wrong that this poor man should be arrested for murder after two intruders brought the weapon into his home and were attacking him. He had every right to defend himself and his family.

No one deserves to die but if you enter someone's house with a weapon and you end up the one harmed then that's your own fault.

The guy who died comes from a 'family' of criminals who prey on the elderly. Nice.

[arista]

I was stunned by this story the other day. It is incredibly wrong that this poor man should be arrested for murder after two intruders brought the weapon into his home and were attacking him. He had every right to defend himself and his family.

No one deserves to die but if you enter someone's house with a weapon and you end up the one harmed then that's your own fault.

The guy who died comes from a 'family' of criminals who prey on the elderly. Nice.




Hang on
lets see the end result

The Dead Criminal Punk (37 year old H. Vincent)
picks on easy old folk
it is great he is DEAD

He was wanted by Police for another old person break in
his Criminal mate left him in the road
driving off in his Van


This 78 year old is a hero

[chuff me dizzy]

Buy the man a medal as big as a dustbin lid :clap1:

[Northern Monkey]

Police have said no further action to be taken against this fella

[Kazanne]

Police have said no further action to be taken against this fella

That is such good news and the only sensible conclusion.

[Oliver_W]

I was told by someone (who said that they had been told by a policeman) that if you do confront a burglar and overpower them by physical means you should make sure they are found in your bedroom (or at least upstairs) as you are less likely to get charged if they are upstairs in your home when you attack them. Don't know how true it is - and don't want to test it out particularly
I might buy a toy gun, and keep it under my bed to place in a burglar's hand if I knock them out/kill them, so I can claim I thought my life was in danger

The Tony Martin case made self defence illegal and decriminalised burglary.
That's completely backwards and ridiculous.

[LaLaLand]

Police have said no further action to be taken against this fella

I'm over the moon. You should be able to protect yourself, your family and your home against intruders especially this day in age.

[Sticks]

That's completely backwards and ridiculous.

And the law..

This is how our system works, a judgement made elsewhere sets legal precedent which other courts are duty bound to follow.

[Sticks]

Police have said no further action to be taken against this fella

This is the link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43652308) to the report on the BBC News website on that story.

In times past I thought it was always the case that if someone killed anyone there had to be a trial :conf:

[user104658]

And the law..

This is how our system works, a judgement made elsewhere sets legal precedent which other courts are duty bound to follow.Only where the precedent has been set by a higher court than the one trying the case. Precedent does not have to be followed if set by a lower level court of one at the same level.

[jaxie]

I want to know more about TS and the fairies myself!

[kirklancaster]

And if a burglar brings along his pet fairies, you may be legally obliged to offer them a small refreshment to ensure they don't become parched.

:laugh2:

[kirklancaster]

And the law..

This is how our system works, a judgement made elsewhere sets legal precedent which other courts are duty bound to follow.

You are correct there Sticks as far as I am aware. Of course, a lot of 'Iffy' Judges do not always follow them and 'do their own thing'

[user104658]

It's simply not true that precedent can't be "rewritten", otherwise we would still be following precedent set centuries ago :shrug:.

Also, in cases like this, sentencing judges often "get around" precedent by giving pretty-much-nothing sentences even when there is a conviction.

[Mystic Mock]

And the law..

This is how our system works, a judgement made elsewhere sets legal precedent which other courts are duty bound to follow.

It's a law that can very easily get overturned if the public have an outcry about it.

I mean let's look at this very case that we're discussing on this thread.

[Sticks]

Unless the family of the dead burglar successfully apply for judicial review of the decision not to charge the pensioner...

[Livia]

The police were never going to charge this man. You are allowed to use a lot more force in your own home than you are, say, in the street. For instance, you don't have to wait for the burglar to attack you if you feel your life or the lives of your family are at risk. And the burglar had a screwdriver, so was armed.

Lots of people mentioned Tony Martin, which was an entirely different case. Not only was his gun illegal, he had it ready. I have a shotgun (because I shoot clays, I don't do post offices or anything...) and there are very strict rules about how your gun is stored. By the time I'd got the key, which is kept apart from the gun cabinet, opened the cabinet, got the gun out, loaded it, because she cartridges aren't kept with the gun... the burglars would be out the door with my telly.

[Livia]

Unless the family of the dead burglar successfully apply for judicial review of the decision not to charge the pensioner...
If that happens I will run naked though Chat and Games.

[jaxie]

If that happens I will run naked though Chat and Games.

:evilgrin:

[Livia]

If that happens I will run naked though Chat and Games.

And Jaxie said she'd do it with me.

[kirklancaster]

The police were never going to charge this man. You are allowed to use a lot more force in your own home than you are, say, in the street. For instance, you don't have to wait for the burglar to attack you if you feel your life or the lives of your family are at risk. And the burglar had a screwdriver, so was armed.

Lots of people mentioned Tony Martin, which was an entirely different case. Not only was his gun illegal, he had it ready. I have a shotgun (because I shoot clays, I don't do post offices or anything...) and there are very strict rules about how your gun is stored. By the time I'd got the key, which is kept apart from the gun cabinet, opened the cabinet, got the gun out, loaded it, because she cartridges aren't kept with the gun... the burglars would be out the door with my telly.

:laugh2:

[kirklancaster]

If that happens I will run naked though Chat and Games.

"The very thought of you...." :spin2::spin2:

(The other 'Spin' is for Jaxie.:hehe:)

[arista]

Police have said no further action to be taken against this fella

Yes the Correct Action

[Brillopad]

Unless the family of the dead burglar successfully apply for judicial review of the decision not to charge the pensioner...

A family of known criminals and cowards. Two men, one armed with a screwdriver, break into an elderly couples home at night and regularly target the elderly. Scumbags is too polite a word for the lot of them. Who will listen or care.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I hope people enjoy this great news. This is how we would all feel if we executed perps on a regular basis

[user104658]

If that happens I will run naked though Chat and Games.I'm going to do that anyway.

[kirklancaster]

I'm going to do that anyway.

:joker: Cue MASS EXODUS by Chat and Gamesters to Serious Debates. :hee:

[Kizzy]

I'll show them the way...
https://media1.tenor.com/images/da848a652d4db7b7ca2cead32ec2f2cd/tenor.gif?itemid=7396270

[Cherie]

This is a bit tasteless, I know they wanted to make a shrine to their dead family member, but outside the home where he was committing a crime, really doesn't sit well, no wonder it was torn down

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/942721/hither-green-richard-osborn-brooks-henry-vincent-burglar-flowers

[Niamh.]

This is a bit tasteless, I know they wanted to make a shrine to their dead family member, but outside the home where he was committing a crime, really doesn't sit well, no wonder it was torn down

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/942721/hither-green-richard-osborn-brooks-henry-vincent-burglar-flowers

I stopped reading at the "Henry had a heart of gold" part.......... Preying on the elderly and disabled = heart of gold hhmmm

[Cherie]

I stopped reading at the "Henry had a heart of gold" part.......... Preying on the elderly and disabled = heart of gold hhmmm

he probably had where his family were concerned, that is no consolation to all the elderly couple he robbed who can't return to their home :idc:

[Livia]

Some people have no shame.

[arista]

This is a bit tasteless, I know they wanted to make a shrine to their dead family member, but outside the home where he was committing a crime, really doesn't sit well, no wonder it was torn down

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/942721/hither-green-richard-osborn-brooks-henry-vincent-burglar-flowers


Should be banned
Scum Criminal

[jaxie]

I saw the flower shrine thing this morning. Incredibly tasteless to put that outside the home of the man he tried to rob and attack with a screwdriver. Those sentiments should have kept for his funeral if they felt the need.

I think it speaks very loudly about the kind of people they are. They obviously don't see any wrong in what he was doing.

[Amy Jade]

Nobody with a 'heart of gold' is a serial criminal and specifically burgles vulnerable pensioners homes.

Glad the residents ripped down the memorial. I would have happily helped.

[Brillopad]

I saw the flower shrine thing this morning. Incredibly tasteless to put that outside the home of the man he tried to rob and attack with a screwdriver. Those sentiments should have kept for his funeral if they felt the need.

I think it speaks very loudly about the kind of people they are. They obviously don't see any wrong in what he was doing.

According to the Metro the couple have been forced out in fear of reprisals. The whole bunch of the them are low-life scum.

[Kizzy]

I don't see any merit in attacking a grieving family, yes he was a despicable criminal but isn't that why we have a justice system?.. I don't really agree with vigilante justice at all.

[Cherie]

I don't see any merit in attacking a grieving family, yes he was a despicable criminal but isn't that why we have a justice system?.. I don't really agree with vigilante justice at all.

The couple can't return to their home due to fear of reprisals, so the family putting up a shrine seems more menancing on that basis, where is the justice in them having to give up the home they have probably lived in for most of their lives?

[jaxie]

I don't see any merit in attacking a grieving family, yes he was a despicable criminal but isn't that why we have a justice system?.. I don't really agree with vigilante justice at all.

Come on Kizzy it's clear the family are being deliberately provocative.

[user104658]

I don't see any merit in attacking a grieving family, yes he was a despicable criminal but isn't that why we have a justice system?.. I don't really agree with vigilante justice at all.

I don't agree with them actually being targetted or anything like that, but I do strongly suspect that putting up a memorial on the street that he was burgling when he was killed is a deliberate attempt to intimidate... it's not so much "we'll never forget our family member", more a pointed "we loved him, you killed him, and we're not going to forget THAT".

With that in mind, and while again saying I don't think anyone should "retaliate" over it, I do think it's right that the memorial was removed.

[AnnieK]

A memorial outside his own property would have been fine, putting it where he committed a crime is provocation to the home owners and also possibly intimidation. The couple have been placed with protection for fear of reprisals at the moment and threats have been made by his family. It was rightfully removed, but his family do have the right to grieve him, criminal or not he was a dad, son, brother etc. but doing it at his property is much more acceptable imo.

[Brillopad]

I don't see any merit in attacking a grieving family, yes he was a despicable criminal but isn't that why we have a justice system?.. I don't really agree with vigilante justice at all.

That disgusting family are quite happy to bully and intimidate an old man and his disabled wife who were the victims of their family member. No tears here.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Good that locals tore down that filth's flowers left by braindead morons who were related to him

[Kizzy]

Ah so now the whole family are dehumanised?... ok.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ah so now the whole family are dehumanised?... ok.

No, only the disgusting pigs leaving flowers at the pensioners house

[Niamh.]

No, only the disgusting pigs leaving flowers at the pensioners house

Can't disagree with that. It's intimidation and disgusting behavior. Of course as parents they're going to be upset their son is dead but they should also be sorry that his last actions were to terrorise elderly and disabled people, the fact that they've chosen to carry on that intimidation kind of implies that the apple didn't fall too far from the tree

[Mystic Mock]

Come on Kizzy it's clear the family are being deliberately provocative.

Some families are scum.

[Sticks]

From the BBC News website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43710526)

Many residents in Hither Green have interpreted the large tribute to Mr Vincent as an aggressive act.

One neighbour said they saw a car circling the block while the tribute was being erected, which they believe was an attempt to intimidate locals.

If intimidation was the aim, it appears to have worked. Most neighbours are reluctant to talk publicly, for fear of being drawn into a dispute that may not be over.

So if someone breaks into your house, comply with their every wish, if you know what's good for you and your neighbours :shocked:

[jaxie]

From the BBC News website (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43710526)



So if someone breaks into your house, comply with their every wish, if you know what's good for you and your neighbours :shocked:

It just emphasises even more what an unpleasant family the person who took the screwdriver into a pensioners home to rob them is from. I guess that's why he turned out the kind of bloke who preys on old people.

[Cherie]

Attaching them to some else' s property as well.

[Crimson Dynamo]

travellers it would seem..

[Oliver_W]

travellers it would seem..

Then I guess more than just the flowers will be left out in their street before long...

[Cherie]

travellers it would seem..

That would have been obvious if you read the link I posted

[Crimson Dynamo]

That would have been obvious if you read the link I posted

The Express?


I would never compromise my liberal worldview with that right wing nonsense

:hmph:

[Cherie]

The Express?


I would never compromise my liberal worldview with that right wing nonsense

:hmph:

I heard it on the news and it was the first link that came up :nono:

[Cherie]

Then I guess more than just the flowers will be left out in their street before long...

Interesting, I guess a whole swathe of stereotypes that wouldn't be tolerated in any other group are on the tip of your tongue :idc:

[Amy Jade]

Ah so now the whole family are dehumanised?... ok.

The family members who are clearly trying to intimidate a poor gentleman and his disabled wife after he simply defended himself against their scum relative who had broken into his house? Yes they are scum.

If my family member was killed in a similar situation I wouldn't go to the innocent parties property to lay flowers, it's incredibly thoughless.

[Crimson Dynamo]

The family members who are clearly trying to intimidate a poor gentleman and his disabled wife after he simply defended himself against their scum relative who had broken into his house? Yes they are scum.

If my family member was killed in a similar situation I wouldn't go to the innocent parties property to lay flowers, it's incredibly thoughless.

:clap1:

[Oliver_W]

Interesting, I guess a whole swathe of stereotypes that wouldn't be tolerated in any other group are on the tip of your tongue :idc:

Judging by the family's behaviour so far, we can expect the worst from them.

[Cherie]

The family members who are clearly trying to intimidate a poor gentleman and his disabled wife after he simply defended himself against their scum relative who had broken into his house? Yes they are scum.

If my family member was killed in a similar situation I wouldn't go to the innocent parties property to lay flowers, it's incredibly thoughless.

It's not thoughtless, it is sending a message, and they have been back to relay flowers that were ripped down today, you would think they would have left some police on duty to prevent this happening.

[bots]

if someone dies in circumstances where they were involved in criminal activity, its not normal to leave flowers at the scene or try to commemorate the event. I find it pretty tasteless

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's not thoughtless, it is sending a message, and they have been back to relay flowers that were ripped down today, you would think they would have left some police on duty to prevent this happening.

yes, to boot these scumbags back to where ever they come from

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/04/10/15/4B03EA9000000578-5598961-image-a-86_1523371445364.jpg

:skull:

[Cherie]

yes, to boot these scumbags back to where ever they come from

England? With names like that they were born here

[bots]

that is actually defacing private property

[Cherie]

It’s on the ITV news and the locals are out jumping on the flowers :omgno:

[Crimson Dynamo]

It’s on the ITV news and the locals are out jumping on the flowers :omgno:

they need to set fire to them all

[Crimson Dynamo]

England? With names like that they were born here

lol not i meant where ever they have set up

[Cherie]

lol not i meant where ever they have set up

:hee:

[bots]

they need to set fire to them all

thats not very fair on the locals :shocked:

[Cherie]

thats not very fair on the locals :shocked:

Terrible

[user104658]

Jumping on them (or burning them) is giving these people exactly the reaction they're looking for to start a mini-war. The anger is understandable but people should simply take it in turns to calmly go out, take the flowers down, and bin them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

the scumbags leaving the flowers..

Its like I am living in a parallel universe to people like that

how can people so badly educated with no empathy or decency exist?

:shrug:

[Beso]

the scumbags leaving the flowers..

Its like I am living in a parallel universe to people like that

how can people so badly educated with no empathy or decency exist?

:shrug:

Why? Why are they scumbags?

They lost a relative, and people act in very very diffferent ways to bereavment.

Why are the locals so worked up about it, none if them died.

[Brillopad]

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/newpix/2018/04/10/15/4B03EA9000000578-5598961-image-a-86_1523371445364.jpg

:skull:

State of the pair of them.

[Cherie]

Jumping on them (or burning them) is giving these people exactly the reaction they're looking for to start a mini-war. The anger is understandable but people should simply take it in turns to calmly go out, take the flowers down, and bin them.

Tbf it was just one man out with a scissors in a knitted cap pulled over his eyes, (could have been LT in a certain light) then more flowers went up, some florist is making a mint

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why? Why are they scumbags?

They lost a relative, and people act in very very diffferent ways to bereavment.

Why are the locals so worked up about it, none if them died.

they lost nothing but a feral nomark career cowardly criminal who preyed on pensioners - a man who offered nothing to society, paid no tax, stole most for what he had.

horrible man and horrible family

[Cherie]

Why? Why are they scumbags?

They lost a relative, and people act in very very diffferent ways to bereavment.

Why are the locals so worked up about it, none if them died.

Because the pensioners can’t return to their home for fear of reprisals, imagine it was your Mum, would you be happy, that man will probably have nightmares after killing that guy, it’s not something he will forget over night

[Brillopad]

Why? Why are they scumbags?

They lost a relative, and people act in very very diffferent ways to bereavment.

Why are the locals so worked up about it, none if them died.

That poor old man could easily have died of shock/heart attack - neither the scumbag or his scumbag relatives would have given a damn about him or his family. Waste of space the lot of them.

[Amy Jade]

Why? Why are they scumbags?

They lost a relative, and people act in very very diffferent ways to bereavment.

Why are the locals so worked up about it, none if them died.

The local people are angry because they probably knew the gentleman who lived there and liked him and through absoloutely no fault of his or his wifes doing they are now too scared to return home.

These ignorant twats showing up with flowers are doing it to show they know where the poor old couple live.

[Beso]

they lost nothing but a feral nomark career cowardly criminal who preyed on pensioners - a man who offered nothing to society, paid no tax, stole most for what he had.

horrible man and horrible family


Horrible man admittedly, but he was still someones laddie..

I still dont get how those 2 are scum though.

[Beso]

That poor old man could easily have died of shock/heart attack - neither the scumbag or his scumbag relatives would have given a damn about him or his family. Waste of space the lot of them.


That poor old man managed just fine in the situation.

[Beso]

The local people are angry because they probably knew the gentleman who lived there and liked him and through absoloutely no fault of his or his wifes doing they are now too scared to return home.

These ignorant twats showing up with flowers are doing it to show they know where the poor old couple live.

Well if all thats true then they are indeed the scum of the earth...


But is it?

[Brillopad]

That poor old man managed just fine in the situation.

The point being that the thug didn’t know that did he. HE was deliberately targeting easy targets because he was a coward- he just got more than he bargained for.

[Beso]

The point being that the thug didn’t know that did he. HE was deliberately targeting easy targets because he was a coward- he just got more than he bargained for.

I get all that.

But i am surprised at this old trooper being described as disabled, defenceless and poor old.

But my main issue here is people grieving being called scum.

So unless what amy jade says is correct then this is just another attack on 2 people because they are travellers.



Didn't Hughie teach us anything...aww hughie..what a guy.:dance:

[kirklancaster]

I love how these cowardly twots always turn up to rob and burgle in PAIRS or more, and are always ARMED with some type of weapon despite their victims often being lone women or lone old men or elderly couples.

[jaxie]

I get all that.

But i am surprised at this old trooper being described as disabled, defenceless and poor old.

But my main issue here is people grieving being called scum.

So unless what amy jade says is correct then this is just another attack on 2 people because they are travellers.



Didn't Hughie teach us anything...aww hughie..what a guy.:dance:

They are making a statement though Parmy, you grieve quietly and privately. How many times do families say please respect our privacy at this time. This isn't an act of grieving, it's a very public act of provocation. And a two fingers up at the gentleman who fought for his life and ended up killing someone in self defence and his community. We know where you live they are saying.

[Beso]

They are making a statement though Parmy, you grieve quietly and privately. How many times do families say please respect our privacy at this time. This isn't an act of grieving, it's a very public act of provocation. And a two fingers up at the gentleman who fought for his life and ended up killing someone in self defence and his community. We know where you live they are saying.

Travellers grieve fairly publicly as far as im aware and the women are fairly spiritual. Maybe they might see that as his spirits resting place...i see a lot of flowers on trees and lamposts round here..whatever it is..no-one and i mean no-one can tell another person how they should grieve.

[Ammi]

Travellers grieve fairly publicly as far as im aware and the women are fairly spiritual. Maybe they might see that as his spirits resting place...i see a lot of flowers on trees and lamposts round here..whatever it is..no-one and i mean no-one can tell another person how they should grieve.

...I do understand Parmy..and that the travelling community and families may have traditional ways of expressing grief publicly also etc...but I think this is in context of other things also, the flowers being put on the fence...?...I’m not sure of the accuracy of all reporting but ‘death threats’ are also being made and the couple have had to be moved to a safe house...

[Beso]

...I do understand Parmy..and that the travelling community and families may have traditional ways of expressing grief publicly also etc...but I think this is in context of other things also, the flowers being put on the fence...?...I’m not sure of the accuracy of all reporting but ‘death threats’ are also being made and the couple have had to be moved to a safe house...

Yes but whos to say the grieving family have anything to do with the death threats?

From my own experiences i am very aware of internet and life trolls latching onto any news story thats been so public so they can then be the sick and twisted individuals they are by contacting people involved to harrass and upset them...

I may be wrong, and it may well be the family if the stories are true....but to just jump in and hang them before a trial saddens me as i just see it as peoples prejudice and intolerance to travellers.

[Cherie]

Yes but whos to say the grieving family have anything to do with the death threats?

From my own experiences i am very aware of internet and life trolls latching onto any news story thats been so public so they can then be the sick and twisted individuals they are by contacting people involved to harrass and upset them...

I may be wrong, and it may well be the family if the stories are true....but to just jump in and hang them before a trial saddens me as i just see it as peoples prejudice and intolerance to travellers.

That is a good point Parmy

[bots]

The travelers are making a point, and you can make your own mind up over it's legitimacy. I take the view that they are sticking 2 fingers up at the establishment because that's what they always do.

[Ammi]

Yes but whos to say the grieving family have anything to do with the death threats?

From my own experiences i am very aware of internet and life trolls latching onto any news story thats been so public so they can then be the sick and twisted individuals they are by contacting people involved to harrass and upset them...

I may be wrong, and it may well be the family if the stories are true....but to just jump in and hang them before a trial saddens me as i just see it as peoples prejudice and intolerance to travellers.

..yeah I’m completely with you, Parmy...there may have been death threats to the couple ...but not from the family and loved ones necessarily or any of the travelling community...and I don’t think media reporting helps with these things either...’the twisted individuals’ as you call them...with the family placing flowers, the ladies..?...all I can see on their faces is sadness and grief because of their loss...

[Livia]

Travellers grieve fairly publicly as far as im aware and the women are fairly spiritual. Maybe they might see that as his spirits resting place...i see a lot of flowers on trees and lamposts round here..whatever it is..no-one and i mean no-one can tell another person how they should grieve.

They weren't being fairly spiritual when they robbed my garage. Or when they left a site about a mile from me covered in disgusting crap, bags of dirty nappies, builders rubbish... and then there are those who are nicking people's pet dogs out of their front gardens to use as bait dogs. A BIG problem where I live. Sometimes they just can't be allowed to have their own way.

If this old man was your relative, Parm, you'd be singing a quite different song.

[Amy Jade]

Having dealt with quite a few traveller families in my job (I work in a supermarket on the cigarette kiosk) I can say most I come in contact with do not seem religious, especially when they call me horrible names for asking them for ID or when they threaten to hit me or wait for me after work when I take stickers for 50p they have put on clothing that costs £20 and they try to intimidate me me into allowing the sale even though they have been seeing on camera doing it.

Wasn't one of the big things in the bible that you do not lie, steal or hurt anyone? Well their 'hero' relative was a theif. If they are religious then they should know that he reserved his place in hell years ago.

Glad to see their flowers were ripped down again.

[Amy Jade]

If this old man was your relative, Parm, you'd be singing a quite different song.
Exactly what I think.

The home owner simply defended himself, his wife and his property. He only stabbed the intruder once so he clearly never meant to kill him. The family should keep away from the victims house, out of respect but they seemingly have no respect and therefore a huge majority are struggling to bare any sympathy for them.

[Niamh.]

They weren't being fairly spiritual when they robbed my garage. Or when they left a site about a mile from me covered in disgusting crap, bags of dirty nappies, builders rubbish... and then there are those who are nicking people's pet dogs out of their front gardens to use as bait dogs. A BIG problem where I live. Sometimes they just can't be allowed to have their own way.

If this old man was your relative, Parm, you'd be singing a quite different song.

around where I work the problem is how they treat their horses, they dump them on other peoples/companies land without adequate food or security, they end up walking around the roads alot of times. A friend of mine and her husband have started a group that goes round feeding them and arranging vet care for them. Sulky racing is a big problem too, just down the road from where I work last week one of the horses collapsed on the road while they were in a sulky, they just unclipped him from it and left him there on the road to die. It's heart breaking

[Livia]

around where I work the problem is how they treat their horses, they dump them on other peoples/companies land without adequate food or security, they end up walking around the roads alot of times. A friend of mine and her husband have started a group that goes round feeding them and arranging vet care for them. Sulky racing is a big problem too, just down the road from where I work last week one of the horses collapsed on the road while they were in a sulky, they just unclipped him from it and left him there on the road to die. It's heart breaking

Disgusting. I don't know if it's the same in Ireland, but the police are scared of confronting them. Last year in Cromer - a costal town - the place was all but shut down when the travellers arrived... and it was like an invasion. And where were the police? Nowhere. Afterwards they apologised and said that lessons had been learned, etc... but the fact is that the locals had to fend for themselves.

And as AJ was saying about the supermarket... I've seen them descend on a supermarket en masse and the staff have had to follow them round the shop. There's also been a spate of them nicking stuff from charity shops. Charity shops!

A Labrador was stolen from my local village. Eight years old, beloved family pet... taken by travellers and used as a bait dog in a dog fight. The owners were distraught as you can imagine. Another part of the traveller culture we're not supposed to interfere with?

Conversely, not far from me, not even a mile, is a Romany camp. It's immaculate and they're really nice people, their kids go to the local school, they use the local pubs and there has never been a problem with them.

Travellers cannot continue to be a law unto themselves, and hanging flowers outside this couple's house was a provocative act.

[user104658]

I never have trouble with the traveller types in my place, usually friendly and polite (although tbqfh, some of them I can't understand a word they're saying). But there aren't a HUGE number of them (a couple of families) and also... They know they'll get kicked out in a second and they need their Roulette fix, so perhaps on their best behaviour.

I can see both sides of this really. The guy who was killed was indeed pretty much a "scum bag" if such terms must be used, or at the very least engaging in some very scummy activity and no one can really be all that SURPRISED or angry that he ended up getting himself killed. That's pretty much how it goes if you choose to be a career criminal. You end up in prison or dead. However, he wasn't exactly a serial killer or "monster", just a crappy and immoral person, so I fully understand that his family will be devastated and grieve for him. He may well have been a loving father/son/friend... People are complicated. Suggesting that they shouldn't grieve, or shouldn't want to, is insane.

However... There's no need at all for this display of grief to be put on in the street where he was terrorising an elderly couple and got himself stabbed. You could argue that they didn't realise it was inappropriate... If they had just done it once... But at this point, the display has been taken down multiple times, but they keep putting it back up. They clearly know its causing upset and distress. Maybe it didn't start out as threatening or conflict driven, maybe they really didn't understand that it would cause conflict and are now feeling defiant and persecuted... But at this point it definitely is conflict driven and intended to prove something. If I lived there, I would definitely be concerned about the possibility for it escalating.

[Livia]

No one's suggesting people "shouldn't grieve". They need to find some other way of doing it instead of harassing the victims of a crime.

[thesheriff443]

They weren't being fairly spiritual when they robbed my garage. Or when they left a site about a mile from me covered in disgusting crap, bags of dirty nappies, builders rubbish... and then there are those who are nicking people's pet dogs out of their front gardens to use as bait dogs. A BIG problem where I live. Sometimes they just can't be allowed to have their own way.

If this old man was your relative, Parm, you'd be singing a quite different song.

Do you think hitler had the right idea which was to murder them all like he did with the Jews.

Good and bad in every culture.

[Livia]

Do you think hitler had the right idea which was to murder them all like he did with the Jews.

Good and bad in every culture.


Do you think it's right to compare the Travellers to the Jews?

and I think you'll find it was the Roma people who were gassed... the travellers were probably still in neutral Ireland.

[Niamh.]

Disgusting. I don't know if it's the same in Ireland, but the police are scared of confronting them. Last year in Cromer - a costal town - the place was all but shut down when the travellers arrived... and it was like an invasion. And where were the police? Nowhere. Afterwards they apologised and said that lessons had been learned, etc... but the fact is that the locals had to fend for themselves.

And as AJ was saying about the supermarket... I've seen them descend on a supermarket en masse and the staff have had to follow them round the shop. There's also been a spate of them nicking stuff from charity shops. Charity shops!

A Labrador was stolen from my local village. Eight years old, beloved family pet... taken by travellers and used as a bait dog in a dog fight. The owners were distraught as you can imagine. Another part of the traveller culture we're not supposed to interfere with?

Conversely, not far from me, not even a mile, is a Romany camp. It's immaculate and they're really nice people, their kids go to the local school, they use the local pubs and there has never been a problem with them.

Travellers cannot continue to be a law unto themselves, and hanging flowers outside this couple's house was a provocative act.

Yeah same here alright. And the whole reason there is such a massive "us and them" divide and why people might come across as generalising is because they don't seem to have to follow the same rules as everyone else in the country. If I had a horse and treated him the way they do with theirs, I'd be arrested and probably never allowed keep one again, they get to keep theirs on other peoples land and not feed them etc

[Livia]

Yeah same here alright. And the whole reason there is such a massive "us and them" divide and why people might come across as generalising is because they don't seem to have to follow the same rules as everyone else in the country. If I had a horse and treated him the way they do with theirs, I'd be arrested and probably never allowed keep one again, they get to keep theirs on other peoples land and not feed them etc

I remember when I worked for an MP, if ever the traveller community had an issue, they'd turn up in a large crowd, with a copy of the Human Rights Act under their arm. It's a shame that since the act was introduced it's been mostly used to help scumbags get their own way.

[Brillopad]

Do you think hitler had the right idea which was to murder them all like he did with the Jews.

Good and bad in every culture.

Of course there are good and bad in every culture - where did anyone say differently - but this family are a pretty unpleasant bunch known for not only targeting and stealing from the elderly whilst armed they are now attempting to intimidate the elderly VICTIM of a member of their family for defending himself.

It seems it doesn’t matter how badly people behave there will always be someone to defend them - that is what I find sad.

[Amy Jade]

Some travellers around here robbed a charity shop too, Livia. Claire House, a charity for dying children.

They were seen parked behind by people in the pubs across the road and they raised the police, the police came over an hour later. Some people from the pub told them who it was and the woman who ran the charity shop had CCTV of them inside the shop but nothing came of it, don't even think it was investigated.

[Livia]

Some travellers around here robbed a charity shop too, Livia. Claire House, a charity for dying children.

They were seen parked behind by people in the pubs across the road and they raised the police, the police came over an hour later. Some people from the pub told them who it was and the woman who ran the charity shop had CCTV of them inside the shop but nothing came of it, don't even think it was investigated.

They all lie for each other. And you know, I'm sure none of us want to tell anyone else how to live their lives, but cruelty to animals, thieving and all the other things they're famous for is totally unacceptable. If they cleaned up their act people wouldn't have such a huge problem with them. And really, stealing from a charity for dying children really is as low as you can go. And then they make a big thing about going to church. Incredible.

[Kazanne]

around where I work the problem is how they treat their horses, they dump them on other peoples/companies land without adequate food or security, they end up walking around the roads alot of times. A friend of mine and her husband have started a group that goes round feeding them and arranging vet care for them. Sulky racing is a big problem too, just down the road from where I work last week one of the horses collapsed on the road while they were in a sulky, they just unclipped him from it and left him there on the road to die. It's heart breaking

OMG Niamh ,that is so sad,Can I ask what is Sulky racing ? it sounds awful,I think most of us know travellers that have been rude,and filthy,not all of them but a lot don't care about anyone other than themselves.

[user104658]

It seems it doesn’t matter how badly people behave there will always be someone to defend them - that is what I find sad.

I think some people are just more inclined to see things in shades of grey... Nothing is ever simple. And also it's not about "defending" anyone, this is a misunderstanding I keep encountering, the idea that being interested in the complexities of human psychology is "making excuses!" when it really isn't.

[Niamh.]

OMG Niamh ,that is so sad,Can I ask what is Sulky racing ? it sounds awful,I think most of us know travellers that have been rude,and filthy,not all of them but a lot don't care about anyone other than themselves.

Here's a video of a race on a really busy road, very close to where I work

uuMS3WRGIvQ

[Kazanne]

Oh Jeez,those poor horses must be so scared,Is it against the law there? Looks pretty dangerous for other drivers too

[Niamh.]

Oh Jeez,those poor horses must be so scared,Is it against the law there? Looks pretty dangerous for other drivers too

This is what I'm saying, if I went out on one of them, I'd absolutely get arrested and charged........

[Oliver_W]

I think some people are just more inclined to see things in shades of grey... Nothing is ever simple. And also it's not about "defending" anyone, this is a misunderstanding I keep encountering, the idea that being interested in the complexities of human psychology is "making excuses!" when it really isn't.

When they rob charity shops, leave rubbish and **** all over public spaces, burgle people, and smash pubs up, there's no point looking for shades of grey or complexities of human psychology.

[user104658]

When they rob charity shops, leave rubbish and **** all over public spaces, burgle people, and smash pubs up, there's no point looking for shades of grey or complexities of human psychology.Well there is if you're interested in such things. Again, I'm not talking about making excuses for anyone so the outrage is misplaced.

I'm interested in the childhood psychology of serial killers but it doesn't mean I want them released :shrug:.

[Beso]

They weren't being fairly spiritual when they robbed my garage. Or when they left a site about a mile from me covered in disgusting crap, bags of dirty nappies, builders rubbish... and then there are those who are nicking people's pet dogs out of their front gardens to use as bait dogs. A BIG problem where I live. Sometimes they just can't be allowed to have their own way.

If this old man was your relative, Parm, you'd be singing a quite different song.

You are free to think that i would act differently, but to be honest i wouldnt..

I wouldnt go round pointing fingers with no proof as i know how much that can go horribly wrong with innocent people being killed due to one mans word.


And i would probably invited to 2 women indoors to discuss what to do going forward....believe it if you want..or not...:shrug:

[Kazanne]

people always seem to want to blame anyone but the criminal,I just don't get it and no good slapping these people on the wrist this is why we are so fcuked up now,human rights abused and used to commit crimes and plead their human right.

[Beso]

When they rob charity shops, leave rubbish and **** all over public spaces, burgle people, and smash pubs up, there's no point looking for shades of grey or complexities of human psychology.

They, they, they......


Now that sounds like you have just lumped all travellers in the scumbag box without even bothering to find out about individuals...which is my point exactly.


These 2 women are being judged on a dead scumbags actions and i find that a bit off tbh.

[Oliver_W]

They, they, they......


Now that sounds like you have just lumped all travellers in the scumbag box without even bothering to find out about individuals...which is my point exactly.


These 2 women are being judged on a dead scumbags actions and i find that a bit off tbh.

Plenty of travelers don't do those things, they're not a problem and they're a separate "they".

[Ammi]

Yes but whos to say the grieving family have anything to do with the death threats?

From my own experiences i am very aware of internet and life trolls latching onto any news story thats been so public so they can then be the sick and twisted individuals they are by contacting people involved to harrass and upset them...

I may be wrong, and it may well be the family if the stories are true....but to just jump in and hang them before a trial saddens me as i just see it as peoples prejudice and intolerance to travellers.

..just touching on this thing Parmy said earlier in the thread...about ‘internet trolls latching on etc..’...?...I read a news report this morning...which said that some who are taking the flowers down aren’t residents or anyone associated with the older couple involved...they are people who have just read the media stories and have become ‘enraged’...so they have acted on that..that’s not really concern for the residents either, I wouldn’t say...

[thesheriff443]

Let's be real, animals children and the old are treated the worst in this so called civilised world.

[Ammi]

.. my balance of personal ‘travelling community’ stories anyway...things I’ve personally experienced..is that yeah, some pretty negative ones with no care or regard to the community etc... it some great ones as well...some great, caring traveller parents who have helped create great associations and interactions with the residents...who have themselves initiated that and been very involved with other parents and children in caring for the community together...is what I’ve also experienced with some travellers...some great people with some great values...

[Cherie]

Alot of comments on this thread would not be tolerated for other groups, there are good and bad everywhere.

[Livia]

I think some people are just more inclined to see things in shades of grey... Nothing is ever simple. And also it's not about "defending" anyone, this is a misunderstanding I keep encountering, the idea that being interested in the complexities of human psychology is "making excuses!" when it really isn't.

But TS, you are making excuses. You say that you can see shades of grey, well, you#'re not the only one. We're all pretty intelligent on here. Maybe you've been fortunate not to have encountered the downside of the traveller community, but I have and so have others. And every time a scumbag does something appalling there are people on the forum ready to tell everyone they're wrong and we should see the bigger picture.

If there was a positive story about travellers anywhere, I'd be glad to compare note.

[Beso]

All this not caring about the community etc...

You just have to look at all the garbage strewn up and down the countries roads..or the dog **** you have to dodge to get your morning paper....

Feet high front lawns, broken down viehicles outside folks front doors..etc etc.....

I dont think travellers are to blame for it all.

[Livia]

Alot of comments on this thread would not be tolerated for other groups, there are good and bad everywhere.

To be fair, Cherie, not a lot of other groups get away with what the travellers get away with. They are a law unto themselves.

[Oliver_W]

Alot of comments on this thread would not be tolerated for other groups, there are good and bad everywhere.

Which other groups have gotten themselves a reputation for doing the things which make people complain about the travelers?

[jaxie]

I don't really agree that travellers as a group are relevant to this thread or in the stereotypes for them but then I don't live in a community that has had problems from them as a group and this can weight peoples opinion considerably. I don't really blame anyone for that either.

However I do think this particular family are being deliberately provocative. This is more about making a vengeful statement than genuine grieving in my opinion.

[Beso]

Which other groups have gotten themselves a reputation for doing the things which make people complain about the travelers?


Jesus christ..pop into any housing estate and you will see all the **** left lying about by people of all nationalities, races or whatever todays box is.

[Cherie]

To be fair, Cherie, not a lot of other groups get away with what the travellers get away with. They are a law unto themselves.

I do agree they do seem to get away with far more than is the norm, I guess that is down to the fact that they can uproot and at time and are generally of no fixed abode, so quite difficult to convict, I don't know

[Cherie]

Which other groups have gotten themselves a reputation for doing the things which make people complain about the travelers?

You have changed your tune since yesterday. Yes there is a lot to complain about, like there is a lot of to complain about in any group of people, but tarring everyone of them with same brush would not be tolerated in any other group.

[Cherie]

I don't really agree that travellers as a group are relevant to this thread or in the stereotypes for them but then I don't live in a community that has had problems from them as a group and this can weight peoples opinion considerably. I don't really blame anyone for that either.

However I do think this particular family are being deliberately provocative. This is more about making a vengeful statement than genuine grieving in my opinion.

I'm inclined to believe this as well tbf

[Niamh.]

Alot of comments on this thread would not be tolerated for other groups, there are good and bad everywhere.Well my point was to do with a particular activity that is practised by travellers and besides being dangerous is terrible animal cruelty. It is off-topic though so I won't say anymore on it

[user104658]

But TS, you are making excuses. You say that you can see shades of grey, well, you#'re not the only one. We're all pretty intelligent on here. Maybe you've been fortunate not to have encountered the downside of the traveller community, but I have and so have others. And every time a scumbag does something appalling there are people on the forum ready to tell everyone they're wrong and we should see the bigger picture.

If there was a positive story about travellers anywhere, I'd be glad to compare note.It's not excuses though, there are no excuses for burgling houses and terrorising people, and no one is trying to do that. No one is trying g to say that there are valid reasons for those actions. I'm not even saying the resident shouldn't have stabbed him; he was right to take whatever action necessary when him and his family were threatened in their home. The burglar (knowingly, unless he was very stupid) risked his life with his criminal activity and paid the price.

The "shades of grey"... And where the aftermath becomes complicated... Lie in the fact that just because he was clearly not a good or moral person, doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't love or wasn't loved by his family and friends. People are extremely complex and, barring complete sociopaths (which are very rare), the "scummiest" people have more than one aspect to who they are. People who do awful things don't go home and sit around cackling and coming up with evil schemes like supervillains all day... That is the hard to swallow reality.

The effort to understand, not excuse, is actually hugely rewarding... It's fine if you have no interest in doing so but I really can't comprehend why you would want to stop anyone else from doing it.

[bots]

It's not excuses though, there are no excuses for burgling houses and terrorising people, and no one is trying to do that. No one is trying g to say that there are valid reasons for those actions. I'm not even saying the resident shouldn't have stabbed him; he was right to take whatever action necessary when him and his family were threatened in their home. The burglar (knowingly, unless he was very stupid) risked his life with his criminal activity and paid the price.

The "shades of grey"... And where the aftermath becomes complicated... Lie in the fact that just because he was clearly not a good or moral person, doesn't necessarily mean that he didn't love or wasn't loved by his family and friends. People are extremely complex and, barring complete sociopaths (which are very rare), the "scummiest" people have more than one aspect to who they are. People who do awful things don't go home and sit around cackling and coming up with evil schemes like supervillains all day... That is the hard to swallow reality.

The effort to understand, not excuse, is actually hugely rewarding... It's fine if you have no interest in doing so but I really can't comprehend why you would want to stop anyone else from doing it.


If the process of "understanding" involves explaining their behaviour for reasons not within their own control then it is making excuses for them

[user104658]

If the process of "understanding" involves explaining their behaviour for reasons not within their own control then it is making excuses for themWho is doing that, though? You're assuming that understanding behaviour is the same thing as removing personal responsibility for that behaviour... It's not.

[Tom4784]

Quite a ridiculous case from what I've read so I'm glad he faced no charges for it, it seems a million miles away from that case with the farmer killing the intruders as they ran away.

[arista]

The 78 year old and his ill wife have moved out
under Police advice.
The Evil Criminal who is Dead
has his family and criminal mates keep putting up flowers.

https://news.sky.com/story/memorial-for-burglar-henry-vincent-pulled-down-for-fourth-time-11326523
So far pulled down the Flowers 4 times

[arista]

https://e3.365dm.com/18/04/750x563/skynews-billy-jeeves-hither-green_4278469.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180409161623
[The Met Police has released this image of Hither Green suspect Billy Jeeves]

The Scumbag Criminal Driver has that is still free

[thesheriff443]

People put flowers up at side of the road where people have been killed some from speeding or drunk driving.

Leave them up, be old news next month.

[arista]

People put flowers up at side of the road where people have been killed some from speeding or drunk driving.

Leave them up, be old news next month.

No a local will not stand for it.
https://e3.365dm.com/18/04/536x302/skynews-hither-green-burglar-stabbed_4279802.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180411151936

[thesheriff443]

No a local will not stand for it.
https://e3.365dm.com/18/04/536x302/skynews-hither-green-burglar-stabbed_4279802.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180411151936

Then make him sit

[user104658]

What I will address;

Apparently there's some confusion with thinking that I'm using the word "understanding" synonymously with "compassion". Which just is not the case. I'm not generally all that compassionate, and that's in no way what I was even talking about :shrug:

Bluntly as I can put it; I don't care that this guy is dead. Literally... at all. It gets a big "meh" - he invaded someone's home and he got stabbed. It seems pretty inevitable. I also don't really care that his family are upset about it. I don't know them... it's not exactly on my radar. When I say I like trying to "understand" these things it's not some bleeding heart acceptance thing... it's because I find attempting to understand human and social psychology interesting and rewarding, in the sense that it's fascinating.

I'm sure that'll just piss you off more because, for whatever reason, you think you need to "knock me down a peg" and tell me that "I'm not all that clever" like it's some sort of weird personal mission. Luckily, along with this fellow's death, I don't particularly care about your assessments of how smart I am or am not either :shrug:.

[Amy Jade]

People put flowers up at side of the road where people have been killed some from speeding or drunk driving.

Leave them up, be old news next month.

That is different though, the driver of a car who hits someone doesn't live on the road side. These people are going to the victims home and sticking flowers up.

[thesheriff443]

That is different though, the driver of a car who hits someone doesn't live on the road side. These people are going to the victims home and sticking flowers up.

But it's flowers they are leaving not bombs.

[thesheriff443]

Do we know if he was stabbed with his own screw driver or was it a knife from the kitchen.

[Kazanne]

Do we know if he was stabbed with his own screw driver or was it a knife from the kitchen.

He was stabbed with the screwdriver the criminal brought with him,the old guy was protecting his disabled wife,that criminal would have used it against him,wonder what people sticking up for this wanker would say then.

[kirklancaster]

Having dealt with quite a few traveller families in my job (I work in a supermarket on the cigarette kiosk) I can say most I come in contact with do not seem religious, especially when they call me horrible names for asking them for ID or when they threaten to hit me or wait for me after work when I take stickers for 50p they have put on clothing that costs £20 and they try to intimidate me me into allowing the sale even though they have been seeing on camera doing it.

Wasn't one of the big things in the bible that you do not lie, steal or hurt anyone? Well their 'hero' relative was a theif. If they are religious then they should know that he reserved his place in hell years ago.

Glad to see their flowers were ripped down again.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[kirklancaster]

Here's a video of a race on a really busy road, very close to where I work

uuMS3WRGIvQ

I once watched a couple of different documentaries on this Niamh and for supposed 'horse-lovers' the cruelty and lack of care about the horses were glaring.

[kirklancaster]

People put flowers up at side of the road where people have been killed some from speeding or drunk driving.

Leave them up, be old news next month.

Flowers left for innocent victims at the scene of an accident is a light-year away from flowers left for a perpetrator at his VICTIMS home.

And in the former, there can be NO doubt that the 'motive' behind leaving the flowers is Love, Sympathy and Remembrance, while, in the case of the latter, the motive behind leaving flowers is highly DUBIOUS.

[Beso]

He was stabbed with the screwdriver the criminal brought with him,the old guy was protecting his disabled wife,that criminal would have used it against him,wonder what people sticking up for this wanker would say then.

I would say, why didnt he?

But im not one of those people.

[kirklancaster]

I would say, why didnt he?

But im not one of those people.

If you mean; Why didn't the burglar USE the screwdriver on the 'old man' - HE DID. He held it to his throat but the 'old man' obviously surprised bully boy and won the grapple which ensued.

[Amy Jade]

I once watched a couple of different documentaries on this Niamh and for supposed 'horse-lovers' the cruelty and lack of care about the horses were glaring.

Dogs too sadly :(

[kirklancaster]

Dogs too sadly :(

Hi A.J.

Yes, I forgot about the way dogs are treated. THAT was addressed in one of the documentaries too.

[hijaxers]

Hi A.J.

Yes, I forgot about the way dogs are treated. THAT was addressed in one of the documentaries too.

Yes and also punching toddlers (boys) in the stomach to toughen them up to box and fist fight when they are older.

Savages.

[thesheriff443]

Flowers left for innocent victims at the scene of an accident is a light-year away from flowers left for a perpetrator at his VICTIMS home.

And in the former, there can be NO doubt that the 'motive' behind leaving the flowers is Love, Sympathy and Remembrance, while, in the case of the latter, the motive behind leaving flowers is highly DUBIOUS.

In this country laying flowers at a scene where people or someone has died in an accident or murder is the normal thing.

This burglary cost him his life and yet this countries justice system let's child killers live luxury.

Bad news travels faster than good news.

[thesheriff443]

I think some forum members need to stop jumping on members because some of us don't nod our heads all at the same time.

[Beso]

If you mean; Why didn't the burglar USE the screwdriver on the 'old man' - HE DID. He held it to his throat but the 'old man' obviously surprised bully boy and won the grapple which ensued.

Good on him.

[Beso]

No a local will not stand for it.
https://e3.365dm.com/18/04/536x302/skynews-hither-green-burglar-stabbed_4279802.jpg?bypass-service-worker&20180411151936

A vigilante.

[Ammi]

...the police have intervened and made a statement...

"We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area.

"We would also request those placing tributes or visiting the area to behave in a responsible manner so as not to disrupt the local community."


https://news.sky.com/story/police-intervene-over-hither-green-burglar-memorial-11326935

[Brillopad]

...the police have intervened and made a statement...

"We would urge members of the public to respect the wishes of those who choose to place flowers and other tributes in the area.

"We would also request those placing tributes or visiting the area to behave in a responsible manner so as not to disrupt the local community."


https://news.sky.com/story/police-intervene-over-hither-green-burglar-memorial-11326935

Not a satisfactory response from the police in my opinion. They should not be allowed to put the flowers there as it is innappropriate, intimidating and the fence is private property. The police need to be more forceful on this and ensure they put them somewhere else or start to make arrests for their continued harrassment.

[Amy Jade]

If I lived on that street I would be livid if I had to put up with this day in day out. The travellers constantly showing up and bringing press en mass and then a rinse and repeat with people ripping them down.

[thesheriff443]

Not a satisfactory response from the police in my opinion. They should not be allowed to put the flowers there as it is innappropriate, intimidating and the fence is private property. The police need to be more forceful on this and ensure they put them somewhere else or start to make arrests for their continued harrassment.

The police can't take sides, they will investigate harassment claims, like I said it's flowers not bombs they are leaving.

[Amy Jade]

In this country laying flowers at a scene where people or someone has died in an accident or murder is the normal thing.

This burglary cost him his life and yet this countries justice system let's child killers live luxury.

Bad news travels faster than good news.

As Kirk said there are definitely circumstances. Say somebody shot 5 people and then themself I would think it inappropriate to lay flowers for the shooter along with flowers for the innocent victims.

This man is no victim, he was a criminal who preyed on the vulnerable and his death occured as a result of his immoral act at an innocent persons home, his family should not be allowed to go to the house. If they were decent people they would mourn on theirown property not return to the scene where their relative had commited his crimes.

[thesheriff443]

Something to think about, kenny noye who stabbed Stephen Cameron to death on a motorway junction, before that was found not guilty for stabbing an under cover police officer to death in his back garden and claimed self defence, he was being investigated for playing a part in the brinks matt gold robbery.

[thesheriff443]

As Kirk said there are definitely circumstances. Say somebody shot 5 people and then themself I would think it inappropriate to lay flowers for the shooter along with flowers for the innocent victims.

This man is no victim, he was a criminal who preyed on the vulnerable and his death occured as a result of his immoral act at an innocent persons home, his family should not be allowed to go to the house. If they were decent people they would mourn on theirown property not return to the scene where their relative had commited his crimes.

He could be the devil himself, but it's not a crime to lay flowers, regardless of the moral rights and wrongs.

[kirklancaster]

He could be the devil himself, but it's not a crime to lay flowers, regardless of the moral rights and wrongs.

I agree that it is NOT a crime to lay flowers but it is NOT the act of laying the flowers that are being criticised, it is the LOCATION of where they are laying the flowers AND the glaringly dubious MOTIVATION behind that CHOICE of location.

If those laying the flowers are doing so only out a NEED to pay respects to the dead burglar, then - as A.J and others have said - there are better locations where they could do so, but to choose THAT specific location - in light of the threats made to the victims of the burglary and the fact that this INNOCENT old couple were FORCED from their home by those threats - then it is OBVIOUSLY wrong on all counts and raises suspicion as to the GENUINE motivations of those leaving flowers.

RESPECTING the dead is OVERSHADOWED when such an act DISRESPECTS the living.

[Beso]

So lifes only fantastic under the tories, everyone managing fine..loads of opportunities for our youth..blah blah blah.....

Who mentioned travellers ..britains **** again...yawn.

[Cherie]

At least the thread has returned to talking about the particular story, rather than just an opportunity to traveller bash so that is something at least.

[Ammi]

...it would be interesting to know if the couple themselves would want the flowers taken down by residents or if they would want the grief to be allowed in this way...

[jaxie]

In this country laying flowers at a scene where people or someone has died in an accident or murder is the normal thing.

This burglary cost him his life and yet this countries justice system let's child killers live luxury.

Bad news travels faster than good news.

The flowers weren't laid where he died. According to media reports he died a few streets away. They weren't laid on the pavement or kerb, they were attached to someones fence.

And seriously? Who went into a pensioners home in the dark with a screwdriver? What do you think he was planning to do with that screwdriver in the dark a bit of D I Y? He planned to use it as a weapon. He came unstuck and it was entirely his own fault.

[jaxie]

...it would be interesting to know if the couple themselves would want the flowers taken down by residents or if they would want the grief to be allowed in this way...

Since they can't go back to their home due to threats and intimidation, what do you think? It's not an act of grief, its clearly an act of intimidation.

I would imagine that both the pensioner and his wife are devastated by events. He's killed someone, was forced to, do they really need all this drama as well?

If someone in my family had the habit of going armed into elderly peoples homes to rob them I'd be ashamed, and appalled, not floating around with tributes to 'the boy' of 39. Loving someone doesn't mean you have to exclude them from all moral norms.

[Ammi]

Since they can't go back to their home due to threats and intimidation, what do you think? It's not an act of grief, its clearly an act of intimidation.

I would imagine that both the pensioner and his wife are devastated by events. He's killed someone, was forced to, do they really need all this drama as well?

If someone in my family had the habit of going armed into elderly peoples homes to rob them I'd be ashamed, and appalled, not floating around with tributes to 'the boy' of 39. Loving someone doesn't mean you have to exclude them from all moral norms.

..that’s what I’ve been thinking exactly, Jaxie...what would I think , how would I feel about ‘this drama as well’ with how devastated their lives are atm...in how it’s escalating atm....which won’t lead to them feeling secure and safe in returning to their home, surely...(..if they intend to return obviously..)....taking another person’s life, well I can’t even imagine how that would feel, no matter what the circumstances...but to respect the couple as well as I’m sure residents have in their feelings and emotions...wouldn’t it be to not participate in escalating so their neighbours can return to their home as soon as possible...for all ‘healing’ to begin for all....

[bots]

..that’s what I’ve been thinking exactly, Jaxie...what would I think , how would I feel about ‘this drama as well’ with how devastated their lives are atm...in how it’s escalating atm....which won’t lead to them feeling secure and safe in returning to their home, surely...(..if they intend to return obviously..)....taking another person’s life, well I can’t even imagine how that would feel, no matter what the circumstances...but to respect the couple as well as I’m sure residents have in their feelings and emotions...wouldn’t it be to not participate in escalating so their neighbours can return to their home as soon as possible...for all ‘healing’ to begin for all....

Its not just about the couple that have been robbed though. It's about all the local residents who have probably been targeted by the same burgling group in the past and likely will in the future. The flowers could be interpreted as a message .... "we are still here, and we are not going anywhere" If I were a local resident, I wouldn't want this bunch anywhere near where I lived, and there they are putting up a big sign saying ... "WE ARE HERE" I find it all rather troubling

[Ammi]

Its not just about the couple that have been robbed though. It's about all the local residents who have probably been targeted by the same burgling group in the past and likely will in the future. The flowers could be interpreted as a message .... "we are still here, and we are not going anywhere" If I were a local resident, I wouldn't want this bunch anywhere near where I lived, and there they are putting up a big sign saying ... "WE ARE HERE" I find it all rather troubling

...hmmmm, it’s just that I haven’t seen any of those media stories though, bots...with the heightened emotions of the residents atm over the flower tributes ... there have been no words in the media from the residents of them being targeted by burgers or any ‘groups’ in the past so far as I know, I could be wrong with that...of any specific troubles the neighbourhood../..area has and has had in the leading up to this horrific thing and specifically involving the travelling community...there are no media stories of ‘intimidation’ that has or may have been felt...it’s all how the tributes are being interpreted as being ‘threatening’...

[bots]

...hmmmm, it’s just that I haven’t seen any of those media stories though, bots...with the heightened emotions of the residents atm over the flower tributes ... there have been no words in the media from the residents of them being targeted by burgers or any ‘groups’ in the past so far as I know, I could be wrong with that...of any specific troubles the neighbourhood../..area has and has had in the leading up to this horrific thing...there are no media stories of ‘intimidation’ that has or may have been felt...it’s all how the tributes are being interpreted as being ‘threatening’...

I don't believe for a moment that this was the first time this group burgled a house in the area, or some other area in the past. Burglary is a way of life, intimidation is a way of life, and these people know exactly what they are doing.

[Ammi]

I don't believe for a moment that this was the first time this group burgled a house in the area, or some other area in the past. Burglary is a way of life, intimidation is a way of life, and these people know exactly what they are doing.

...but yet no ‘angered resident’ has stated that to the media in anything they’ve said with their reasoning also, so far as I can see ...that burglaries are an issue in that area...which is interesting also...actually I’m just having thoughts about the Tony Martin case...with one of the first things said there in the media...’that travellers had been a problem in the area’ leading up to...

[Crimson Dynamo]

At least the thread has returned to talking about the particular story, rather than just an opportunity to traveller bash so that is something at least.

People dislike "travellers" for good reason

[user104658]

The police issue is complicated because while it would be great if these people would stop, the police can only act within the bounds of what is or isn't illegal. Placing flowers in public (for any reason) is not illegal, so the police can't force them to stop doing it.

Its like... I've had a few addicts fall asleep in my shop, and refuse to leave... and had to call the police for assistance. As its technically a licensed premises, the police CAN forcibly remove them from the shop, but as soon as they're a foot outside the door, they have to let them go - because they haven't actually broken any law. They usually end up passed out on the bench 3 meters from the door. Which isn't ideal, but at least it's out of the shop. But yeah my point is; until they break a law, the police can't do anything about it, sadly... So they're just trying to get it to blow over without incident.

Ifbthe residents are feeling harassed or threatened though, could they potentially apply for a restraining order or similar? Then the police can remove people who violate the order. We have a trespass order against 5 or 6 individuals. Although I'm unsure about how one gets a restraining order against several people / without knowing their names.

[Cherie]

People dislike "travellers" for good reason

They can dislike whoever they like, alot of people dislike alot of people, if the crime was committed by any other group we wouldn't be dragging everyone associated with that group through the mud that is the point I am making, it wouldn't be tolerated on the forum.

[Cherie]

The police issue is complicated because while it would be great if these people would stop, the police can only act within the bounds of what is or isn't illegal. Placing flowers in public (for any reason) is not illegal, so the police can't force them to stop doing it.

Its like... I've had a few addicts fall asleep in my shop, and refuse to leave... and had to call the police for assistance. As its technically a licensed premises, the police CAN forcibly remove them from the shop, but as soon as they're a foot outside the door, they have to let them go - because they haven't actually broken any law. They usually end up passed out on the bench 3 meters from the door. Which isn't ideal, but at least it's out of the shop. But yeah my point is; until they break a law, the police can't do anything about it, sadly... So they're just trying to get it to blow over without incident.

Ifbthe residents are feeling harassed or threatened though, could they potentially apply for a restraining order or similar? Then the police can remove people who violate the order. We have a trespass order against 5 or 6 individuals. Although I'm unsure about how one gets a restraining order against several people / without knowing their names.

tbf they are tying the tributes to someones property, they are not laying them on the pavement.

[Cherie]

Slightly off topic but still on topic Dr Pam Spur was the Psychologist on the 5 Live phone in about this topice this morning :skull: Thought you would like to know that LT

[Crimson Dynamo]

Slightly off topic but still on topic Dr Pam Spur was the Psychologist on the 5 Live phone in about this topice this morning :skull: Thought you would like to know that LT

:omgno:

Not the ...Sperminator?

[user104658]

tbf they are tying the tributes to someones property, they are not laying them on the pavement.I think (I'm not sure, though) that that would be some sort of civil issue rather than a criminal one, so the owner of the property would probably have to get some sort of cease & desist type thing before the police could act? I'm sure there are weird laws about gardens, like it's not trespassing for someone to walk through your garden to knock your door, but would be if they entered your home... But you still can tell people to leave your garden because it's not a public space, either. :think:.

[Cherie]

:omgno:

Not the ...Sperminator?

:omgno:

[Cherie]

I think (I'm not sure, though) that that would be some sort of civil issue rather than a criminal one, so the owner of the property would probably have to get some sort of cease & desist type thing before the police could act? I'm sure there are weird laws about gardens, like it's not trespassing for someone to walk through your garden to knock your door, but would be if they entered your home... But you still can tell people to leave your garden because it's not a public space, either. :think:.

I don't know where it would lie in law, but if that fence blows down its the property owners responsibility so its their property

[bots]

If the police shot an ISIS terrorist and then the terrorist family came and lay flowers at the scene, there would be outrage and there would be lynching if it was repeated.

[Cherie]

If the police shot an ISIS terrorist and then the terrorist family came and lay flowers at the scene, there would be outrage and there would be lynching if it was repeated.

True

[user104658]

If the police shot an ISIS terrorist and then the terrorist family came and lay flowers at the scene, there would be outrage and there would be lynching if it was repeated.I sort of think that's over the top though. I mean what this guy was doing was immoral and awful, but he was a petty thief / fraudster... Not a mass murderer or terrorist.

[Beso]

They can dislike whoever they like, alot of people dislike alot of people, if the crime was committed by any other group we wouldn't be dragging everyone associated with that group through the mud that is the point I am making, it wouldn't be tolerated on the forum.

:clap1:

[jaxie]

...but yet no ‘angered resident’ has stated that to the media in anything they’ve said with their reasoning also, so far as I can see ...that burglaries are an issue in that area...which is interesting also...actually I’m just having thoughts about the Tony Martin case...with one of the first things said there in the media...’that travellers had been a problem in the area’ leading up to...

They said on the BBC news yesterday some of the residents wouldn't be interviewed because they are afraid and have been threatened and the couple have had to be taken into protective custody due to threats. Just because the police aren't releasing the threats to the world doesn't mean they aren't happening though.

It was also widely reported that this man and other member of the family are a gang that prey on the elderly and disabled and have previously been convicted of doing so and served prison time.

[jaxie]

I sort of think that's over the top though. I mean what this guy was doing was immoral and awful, but he was a petty thief / fraudster... Not a mass murderer or terrorist.

He was a person with a long string of convictions for preying on vulnerable people. Let's not paint him pink. You've got to be pretty hard faced to cheat and rob the vulnerable. And let's not forget he went into that home with a weapon.

[user104658]

He was a person with a long string of convictions for preying on vulnerable people. Let's not paint him pink. You've got to be pretty hard faced to cheat and rob the vulnerable. And let's not forget he went into that home with a weapon.I'm not "painting him pink", I said he was doing things that were immoral and awful, but they're still not on par with mass murder or terrorism. In my opinion obviously. I guess some people might think they are :shrug:.

[jaxie]

I'm not "painting him pink", I said he was doing things that were immoral and awful, but they're still not on par with mass murder or terrorism. In my opinion obviously. I guess some people might think they are :shrug:.

Oh it's only intent to murder and grevious bodily harm. I get it now. :shrug:

I am bemused why some people feel a need to try to excuse someone who went into someone elses house with a weapon.

Weapon = intent. Let's not kid ourselves. That struggle in that kitchen was a struggle for survival.

[user104658]

Oh it's only intent to murder and grevious bodily harm. I get it now. :shrug:

I am bemused why some people feel a need to try to excuse someone who went into someone elses house with a weapon.

Weapon = intent. Let's not kid ourselves. That struggle in that kitchen was a struggle for survival.So you do think it's on a par with mass murder or terrorism?

[jaxie]

So you do think it's on a par with mass murder or terrorism?

If the intention is to do harm it is the same intention, isn't it?

Is an elderly person's life at home worth less somehow?

[user104658]

If the intention is to do harm it is the same intention, isn't it?

Is an elderly person's life at home worth less somehow?No, and again (despite apparent desperation to claim that I am) I'm not making excuses for the guy nor am I saying it's wrong that he was stabbed..

... But I find the assertion that a burglary with a screwdriver (which shows willingness to cause physical harm, not intent) is as bad as mass murder or terrorism to be pretty out there. But it's your opinion and I'm not trying to force you to change it? My opinion is that, as bad as it is, it's not on that same level. We can surely agree to disagree here.

[jaxie]

No, and again (despite apparent desperation to claim that I am) I'm not making excuses for the guy nor am I saying it's wrong that he was stabbed..

... But I find the assertion that a burglary with a screwdriver (which shows willingness to cause physical harm, not intent) is as bad as mass murder or terrorism to be pretty out there. But it's your opinion and I'm not trying to force you to change it? My opinion is that, as bad as it is, it's not on that same level. We can surely agree to disagree here.

If there was no intent then you wouldn't take the screwdriver with you. There are burglaries without weaponry.

I don't think there are degrees of bad when it comes to the word murder personally, someone or someone's are dead it's pretty bad all round.

In this case I feel pretty sorry for the person who has been forced to kill someone in self defence. Now there is no intent, just horrible circumstance.

We can agree to disagree, but you ruined the sentiment and the point and weight of your post with the highlighted jibe.

[user104658]

It's not a jibe, it's a fact that people are constantly talking about "making excuses" when no excuses are being made. No one is trying to excuse anyone of anything.

[Beso]

Oh it's only intent to murder and grevious bodily harm. I get it now. :shrug:

I am bemused why some people feel a need to try to excuse someone who went into someone elses house with a weapon.

Weapon = intent. Let's not kid ourselves. That struggle in that kitchen was a struggle for survival.

A burglar with a screwdriver..perhaps needed to i dunno....unscrew things!!

[bots]

A burglar with a screwdriver..perhaps needed to i dunno....unscrew things!!

ah right, that makes so much more sense. He was there to do some surprise DIY for them. I mean, if he had a knife, he was probably going to peel some potatoes, right?

[Kazanne]

I don't know why we are even arguing about this,it is intimidating to the people who have had to flee their home because of threats and flowers laid outside their home,the person to blame is dead by his own deeds really,so if his family want to lay flowers etc, fine just not where he scared and attacked two old age pensioners ,so much so one killed him,he lived by the sword,he died by the sword,take the flowers and lay them where he lived,no one then will bother removing them,

[thesheriff443]

It's not a jibe, it's a fact that people are constantly talking about "making excuses" when no excuses are being made. No one is trying to excuse anyone of anything.

You are banging your head against a brick wall.

[Cherie]

You are banging your head against a brick wall.

We like him to do that though :think: