Owen Jones believes he represents the majority

[Brillopad]

https://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/951908/Good-Morning-Britain-Owen-Jones-Donald-Trump-protest-ITV-viewers?utm_source=traffic.outbrain&utm_medium=traffic.outbrain&utm_term=traffic.outbrain&utm_content=traffic.outbrain&utm_campaign=traffic.outbrain

Can’t stand this jumped-up little twerp who has gotten far too big for his boots. I agree with most of this in that he needs to get real and stop thinking he is the ‘voice of the people’ - in his dreams!!

[arista]

Yes I watched that
the other week.

He wants Protests so he can report on it
to his paper

[MB.]

The irony of course being that Owen's views here do represent the majority, so much so that even Express readers agree:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/907636/donald-trump-uk-state-visit-theresa-may-protest-london-exclusive-poll

[Crimson Dynamo]

The irony of course being that Owen's views here do represent the majority, so much so that even Express readers agree:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/907636/donald-trump-uk-state-visit-theresa-may-protest-london-exclusive-poll

well yes if you consider a poll of 2,021 people to be "a majority" of anything...

[Twosugars]

people should erect a giant pyre in the middle of Trafalgar Square and burn a giant effigy of the orange twat
then maybe, just maybe, he gets the message and stops lying about Britain to illustrate his idiotic ideas about health service, racial integration and so forth

[kirklancaster]

well yes if you consider a poll of 2,021 people to be "a majority" of anything...

Exactly L.T.

Trump is the DEMOCRATICALLY elected President of THE most powerful country in the world - a FREE country at that - who has been our biggest ALLY through thick and thin, and this being so, the mindless morons who are participating in these disgusting anti-Trump anarchic 'demonstrations' are DISRESPECTING the MAJORITY of American voters who elected Trump.

These sheep would do better to stay away and devote their time to researching the anti-Western, anti-Democracy subversives who are behind THIS and virtually EVERY other 'Protest' and 'Demonstration' in this country.

Do ANY of these wankers speak for US - the REAL majority? - NOT on your NELLY.

They are merely more PRO-ACTIVE and SHOUT more LOUDLY and more OFTEN.

It is high time the moderate silent MAJORITY in this country stepped up and made their voices heard to DROWN out these anarchists.

[Twosugars]

Trump didn't get majority, Hillary did. Trump got majority in electoral college which is different and undemocratic

[Twosugars]

And majority in the UK disapproves of him

[MB.]

well yes if you consider a poll of 2,021 people to be "a majority" of anything...

I mean, this thread is based on the assumption that three Good Morning Britain viewers constitutes a majority, so yes

[Kazanne]

The majority isn't always right,there is only a majority as people who really don't know much about politics just jump on their friends or families bandwagon and follow the crowd .Trump is not lying about Britains knife culture as much as we try and deny it , we have one, we can say what we like about their gun culture so why not them about our knife culture? we should be able to take criticism , as for people moaning about his visit here,no doubt some protesters will show us up as always by being obnoxious and violent.

[Withano]

It’s not a stretch of anybodys imagination that the majority of Brits don’t support Trump. If people are angry about somebody suggesting this, I’d argue they’re over-sensitive.

[Alf]

Profesional penis.

[Alf]

It’s not a stretch of anybodys imagination that the majority of Brits don’t support Trump. If people are angry about somebody suggesting this, I’d argue they’re over-sensitive.We love Donnie, because of the type of people he annoys.

[Beso]

Profesional penis.

I hate myself for knowing his name.

[Withano]

We love Donnie, because of the type of people he annoys.

This is one of the more logical reasons for liking him

[Beso]

It’s not a stretch of anybodys imagination that the majority of Brits don’t support Trump. If people are angry about somebody suggesting this, I’d argue they’re over-sensitive.


He has another 3 years to turn them round...like i said at the announcement of him winning on here....""""watch trump unit the world""""

That was me.....




Historic handshakes in year one n a bit....not bad.


Chinas getting on side...

[Brillopad]

Trump didn't get majority, Hillary did. Trump got majority in electoral college which is different and undemocratic

Irrelevant. He won a democratic election, whether or not some Brits don’t approve of their election rules, and is the current President. Like him or not he has every right to come to Britain without supposed adults acting like children and stamping their feet because they don’t like his views and can’t get their own way.

If the Americans want him out they can do so at the next election.

[Brillopad]

It’s not a stretch of anybodys imagination that the majority of Brits don’t support Trump. If people are angry about somebody suggesting this, I’d argue they’re over-sensitive.

That is not the same as accepting that as the American President he has every right to come here and the likes of deluded wannabes like Owen Jones won’t change that.

[Withano]

He has another 3 years to turn them round...like i said at the announcement of him winning on here....""""watch trump unit the world""""

That was me.....




Historic handshakes in year one n a bit....not bad.


Chinas getting on side...

That is not the same as accepting that as the American President he has every right to come here and the likes of deluded wannabes like Owen Jones won’t change that.

I don’t understand how either of these things relate to my post. He suggested the majority of Brits do not support Trump. If we really think about this, he is probably right.

[Alf]

I don’t understand how either of these things relate to my post. He suggested the majority of Brits do not support Trump. If we really think about this, he is probably right.Keep on topic, this thread is about Mr Muscle Jones, not King Donald.

[kirklancaster]

It’s not a stretch of anybodys imagination that the majority of Brits don’t support Trump. If people are angry about somebody suggesting this, I’d argue they’re over-sensitive.


How can you consistently keep misinterpreting what is being stated?

No ONE is 'angry' about anyone suggesting that 'the majority of Brits don’t support Trump' because that statement is pure B.S and I'd love to see your evidence which corroborates it.

You are CLEARLY confusing the tiny percentage of the viewing public who actually leapt to participate in the TV Poll and NOT the majority of the Great British Public - who did NOT leap up to participate.

The 'MAJORITY' of Brits do NOT really give two flying fecks for Trump one way or the other, besides which there is a gulf of difference between; 'Not Supporting Someone' and participating in disruptive, anti-Democratic, anti-Social 'Protests and 'Demonstrations' which ARE the reason for mine and others posts - NOT the reason you have erroneously given above.

[Brillopad]

I don’t understand how either of these things relate to my post. He suggested the majority of Brits do not support Trump. If we really think about this, he is probably right.

It doesn’t matter. Whether the majority of Brits support him or not, and your views as well as those of Jones are supposition rather than actual fact, the likes of Jones have no right to try and stop him.

He is a deluded anarchist who has the audacity to think he speaks for the majority on whether Trump should be allowed to come to Britain or not. Although no fan of Trumps - I’d rather have him than some of the other dodgy characters the likes of Jones are trying to foist on the rest of us.

[Beso]

I don’t understand how either of these things relate to my post. He suggested the majority of Brits do not support Trump. If we really think about this, he is probably right.

But the ones who support him still have a voice, no matter how much lame comediens try.

[Twosugars]

Irrelevant. He won a democratic election, whether or not some Brits don’t approve of their election rules, and is the current President. Like him or not he has every right to come to Britain without supposed adults acting like children and stamping their feet because they don’t like his views and can’t get their own way.

If the Americans want him out they can do so at the next election.

And people here have a right to disagree. Remember giant march against bush visit? Protests against the Chinese President?
Not to mention that speaker of British parliament refused to have trump put a foot inside the building
It is our democratic right to protest p

[kirklancaster]

And people here have a right to disagree. Remember giant march against bush visit? Protests against the Chinese President?
Not to mention that speaker of British parliament refused to have trump put a foot inside the building
It is our democratic right to protest p

Protest about WHAT though? And this is a genuine question.

[Beso]

If the speaker is bercow? It means zilch.

[Beso]

Protest about WHAT though? And this is a genuine question.

The worlds women need someone to shake a handbag at and the worlds sad desperate, ever to be single males need a purpose....or as we say in scotland...." ah might get a sniff if ah gan"

[MTVN]

Owen is a joke

[Withano]

Keep on topic, this thread is about Mr Muscle Jones, not King Donald.
My post was about Jones, keep up lad
How can you consistently keep misinterpreting what is being stated?

No ONE is 'angry' about anyone suggesting that 'the majority of Brits don’t support Trump' because that statement is pure B.S and I'd love to see your evidence which corroborates it.

You are CLEARLY confusing the tiny percentage of the viewing public who actually leapt to participate in the TV Poll and NOT the majority of the Great British Public - who did NOT leap up to participate.

The 'MAJORITY' of Brits do NOT really give two flying fecks for Trump one way or the other, besides which there is a gulf of difference between; 'Not Supporting Someone' and participating in disruptive, anti-Democratic, anti-Social 'Protests and 'Demonstrations' which ARE the reason for mine and others posts - NOT the reason you have erroneously given above.
I refuse to read your lengthy posts with random capitals in, the random capitals do my nut in. Can you please stop using them in conversation with me
It doesn’t matter. Whether the majority of Brits support him or not, and your views as well as those of Jones are supposition rather than actual fact, the likes of Jones have no right to try and stop him.

He is a deluded anarchist who has the audacity to think he speaks for the majority on whether Trump should be allowed to come to Britain or not. Although no fan of Trumps - I’d rather have him than some of the other dodgy characters the likes of Jones are trying to foist on the rest of us.
At the first paragraph, I agree, its an educated guess, yes
At the second para, you better reread your own link
At the end of the day, if he comes - no one is saying he should be barred from the country by legal means
But the ones who support him still have a voice, no matter how much lame comediens try.
True, I dont get how this is relevant to any of my posts either though

[Brillopad]

And people here have a right to disagree. Remember giant march against bush visit? Protests against the Chinese President?
Not to mention that speaker of British parliament refused to have trump put a foot inside the building
It is our democratic right to protest p

Is that the parliamentary speaker currently accused of bullying you speak of!

[Twosugars]

Not gonna repeat why trump is unpopular here and in most countries. I get it you disagree, you even like the guy. It's a democracy, people are allowed to protest and they will.

[kirklancaster]

The Sinister Group Behind Anti-Trump Riots Exposed
A pro-free-speech rally at the University of California, Berkeley, took a different turn after radical far-leftists started attacking the peacefully assembled crowd. The event, which took place on the 15th of April, descended into a ferocious and chaotic event.

The shadowy extremist group known as Antifa is a network of loosely united far-left anarchist and communist groups that organize violent protests and attacks on populists, conservatives, and anyone else its members deems to be Nazis or fascists.

The anti-fascists action group, commonly known as Antifa was originally formed in Germany in the 1980s. The group took the name of the communist paramilitary groups that engaged the Nazis in street-fighting in the 1930s.

Independent journalist Lauren Southern revealed that anyone who tried to hold any sort of right-wing event literally got beat up by militant communists in the street. Southern was present at one of the pro-Trump Berkeley rallies.

One of the footage captured by Southern’s crew showed Antifa street fighters throwing bricks and M-80 explosives into the crowd, as well as assaulting Trump supporters. One of the witnesses also released another footage that showed one Antifa thug hit a Trump supporter over the head with a bicycle chain and lock.

[kirklancaster]

At Monday’s London rally at Downing Street, the red flags of the Socialist Workers Party were already in evidence. “Stand Up To Racism”, a front for that party, is attempting to organise another demo at the US embassy in London on Saturday. Like that other SWP front, Unite Against Fascism, and of course the Stop The War Coalition, Stand Up To Racism has taken for its name a phrase that is almost entirely unobjectionable. This makes it easy to pull in support for its marches and petitions.

But a bit of scepticism is crucial here. Stop The War is a discredited organisation run by sinister apologists for the Assad and Putin regimes. Their newspaper of choice, the Morning Star, celebrated the “liberation” of east Aleppo by Assad’s forces, and defamed the heroic White Helmet civil defence group as jihadists. They count among their leading lights such charmers as Stalinists who have declared solidarity with North Korea.

[Brillopad]

At Monday’s London rally at Downing Street, the red flags of the Socialist Workers Party were already in evidence. “Stand Up To Racism”, a front for that party, is attempting to organise another demo at the US embassy in London on Saturday. Like that other SWP front, Unite Against Fascism, and of course the Stop The War Coalition, Stand Up To Racism has taken for its name a phrase that is almost entirely unobjectionable. This makes it easy to pull in support for its marches and petitions.

But a bit of scepticism is crucial here. Stop The War is a discredited organisation run by sinister apologists for the Assad and Putin regimes. Their newspaper of choice, the Morning Star, celebrated the “liberation” of east Aleppo by Assad’s forces, and defamed the heroic White Helmet civil defence group as jihadists. They count among their leading lights such charmers as Stalinists who have declared solidarity with North Korea.


The hard-left - purer than the driven snow with no agendas whatsoever other than achieving equality for all - yeah, yeah, yeah!!! Thugs and hypocrites come in all shapes and sizes AND political parties AND so-called ideologies! :hehe:

[user104658]

well yes if you consider a poll of 2,021 people to be "a majority" of anything...

Well that's not really how polls work LT... 2000 is a pretty decent sample size :think:.

[Scarlett.]

I don't get why this forum, and people in general imagine the left as this huge monolithic group, the left certainly don't confuse your garden variety right wingers with the Alt Right

[Oliver_W]

Even if he shares the same views with a majority of people, I think most people find him hugely cringeworthy.

[Nicky91]

Well that's not really how polls work LT... 2000 is a pretty decent sample size :think:.

a millenial number as well hihi :laugh:

[user104658]

Even if he shares the same views with a majority of people, I think most people find him hugely cringeworthy.This is probably true. I agree with a lot of his sentiments but I still find him an irritating little sh*t on a personal level :think:

[Twosugars]

he can be a little bit ott, but I don't mind him, we need passionate people, brits are too laid back on the whole and politicians get away with too much as a result

[James]

The poll said most people were against a state visit, but this visit is not a full state visit.

[Brillopad]

he can be a little bit ott, but I don't mind him, we need passionate people, brits are too laid back on the whole and politicians get away with too much as a result

THere is a bit OTT and then there is a deluded loud-mouth, know-it-all little S**te which is what he is. He thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does and soon most will be sick of the sight and sound of him.

[arista]

Owen is a joke


Sometimes he gets a Show on LBC Live Radio
he is on the Back Up List

[arista]

The poll said most people were against a state visit, but this visit is not a full state visit.

Yes its a Fast Working Visit
tricking the protesters
who can not Fly Fast to Scotland like Trump can,
thats one possible route..........................

[user104658]

He thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does and soon most will be sick of the sight and sound of him.

To be fair, it seems that there's a common misconception in certain circles that having a strong / confident opinion is the same as "being a know it all"... Or, perhaps, that claim is simply used by some people to shut down when others happen to have confident opinions that contradict their own.

[Brillopad]

To be fair, it seems that there's a common misconception in certain circles that having a strong / confident opinion is the same as "being a know it all"... Or, perhaps, that claim is simply used by some people to shut down when others happen to have confident opinions that contradict their own.

We all have confident opinions but some try harder to force those opinions on to others. Jones is one of those pretentious people who think they have the right as he of course knows better than most. Somehow I don’t think the majority would agree with him on that!

[Twosugars]

THere is a bit OTT and then there is a deluded loud-mouth, know-it-all little S**te which is what he is. He thinks he knows a lot more than he actually does and soon most will be sick of the sight and sound of him.
but enough about Farage :hee:

[Scarlett.]

This was an interesting video, I have to say I agree with Pie more than Jones
nA6OwzQ-P1Q

[user104658]

This was an interesting video, I have to say I agree with Pie more than Jones
nA6OwzQ-P1Q

I totally get his frustration to be honest, and that's actually a fairly recent thing for me (the last 18 months or so). There are so many rules and buzzwords and phrases thrown around these days - most of it absolute horse****, and most of it from people who have very little idea what they're actually talking about - that it's all too often impossible to have any sort of real or constructive discussion without it descending into jargon and rhetorical one-upmanship.

I strongly suspect that most people who do it would simply be incapable of holding down a one-on-one discussion without the pocket phrasebook of conversation killers.

[Maru]

There's a growing backlash against random celebs, journalists, musicians, actors, "civil rights" organizations, etc speaking on behalf of all of us. It's still smallish, but it's definitely growing. I think long-term, we will look back and say that mob mentality has been bad for society. This goes beyond just politics. Businesses and everyday people have had their lives destroyed or disrupted in some manner because random groups of people with a common cause have found a target they can domineer, intimidate and otherwise play with their lives... occasionally there's another person in front of that that says the "right" thing in the media and then the mob use that to start petitions, run disinformation campaigns, target small businesses, etc to try to destroy those they perceive as a threat... this links back to our culture... modern day western culture has always been a bit of a busybody, because western culture knows best... much of what is happening currently can be blamed on liberalism and Hollywood, sure, but exceptionalism paved the way to supporting that framework, which made it possible for any of those movements to be cultivated, much less thrive. If that isn't corrected in our culture, it doesn't matter if liberalism in it's current manifestation were to reform... there would be some other domineering influence tomorrow that takes it's place that picks up where it left off...

[Brillopad]

people should erect a giant pyre in the middle of Trafalgar Square and burn a giant effigy of the orange twat
then maybe, just maybe, he gets the message and stops lying about Britain to illustrate his idiotic ideas about health service, racial integration and so forth

I can think of many people much more deserving of such an act than Trump, pointless as it is. Maybe we should leave the burning of effigies and the like - together with the implied threats - to the likes of ISIS and their supporters as that kind of moronic act is much more up their street and I see no reason for the West to lower themselves to their level. :rolleyes:

[Kazanne]

I can think of many people much more deserving of such an act than Trump, pointless as it is. Maybe we should leave the burning of effigies and the like - together with the implied threats - to the likes of ISIS and their supporters as that kind of moronic act is much more up their street and I see no reason for the West to lower themselves to their level. :rolleyes:

Here,here brillo.:wavey:

[Withano]

I can think of many people much more deserving of such an act than Trump, pointless as it is. Maybe we should leave the burning of effigies and the like - together with the implied threats - to the likes of ISIS and their supporters as that kind of moronic act is much more up their street and I see no reason for the West to lower themselves to their level. :rolleyes:

Nobody is planning on parading ISIS around our country as an ally, arm in arm with our nations leaders.
I mean, yes ISIS is worse than Trump. You are missing the point though.

[kirklancaster]

I can think of many people much more deserving of such an act than Trump, pointless as it is. Maybe we should leave the burning of effigies and the like - together with the implied threats - to the likes of ISIS and their supporters as that kind of moronic act is much more up their street and I see no reason for the West to lower themselves to their level. :rolleyes:

I nominate John Venables - but don't bother with any effigy, just burn the real thing.

Or if we are strictly talking 'Political Figures only, how about Dianne Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn?

[Withano]

I nominate John Venables - but don't bother with any effigy, just burn the real thing.

Or if we are strictly talking 'Political Figures only, how about Dianne Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn?

...so your previous outrage at Jones was? Him nominating the wrong person? Cos actually you and him are sharing the exact same thought process. Some might call that hypocritical idk.

[bots]

like him or hate him, trump is a democratically elected president. We got annoyed when outside influences got involved in the brexit vote, the only ones that can change things are the american people, and outside protests are just going to strengthen their resolve to keep him

[kirklancaster]

...so your previous outrage at Jones was? Him nominating the wrong person? Cos actually you and him are sharing the exact same thought process. Some might call that hypocritical idk.

WHY do you persistently MISINTERPRET and MISREPRESENT what I have written?

Is it because - by your own admission - you refuse to READ my posts because of my 'random capitalisation' and therefore are totally CLUELESS about what I have ACTUALLY said?

In any event, I CHALLENGE you to reproduce here ANY example of my 'Previous outrage' at Jones.

Go on, QUOTE me - you have NEVER accepted similar challenges from me before when you have misrepresented what I have said.

[kirklancaster]

like him or hate him, trump is a democratically elected president. We got annoyed when outside influences got involved in the brexit vote, the only ones that can change things are the american people, and outside protests are just going to strengthen their resolve to keep him

Well said BOTS.

[Kazanne]

I nominate John Venables - but don't bother with any effigy, just burn the real thing.

Or if we are strictly talking 'Political Figures only, how about Dianne Abbott and Jeremy Corbyn?

She is such a div isn't she Kirk,:laugh:
https://i.imgur.com/2i9HXGL.jpg

[user104658]

like him or hate him, trump is a democratically elected president. We got annoyed when outside influences got involved in the brexit vote, the only ones that can change things are the american people, and outside protests are just going to strengthen their resolve to keep himWell yes but he's the democratically elected president of The United States, by US citizens, and any protest about him coming to the UK / interacting with the UK is surely a protest against him having any political influence over the UK... Where he is not an elected anything.

I mean I would understand your point if there was a planeload of British folks heading to Washington to stage an anti-Trump demonstration... But that's not what's happening. No one is protesting against the democratically elected Trump doing whatever it is he does in his own country... Only when he boards a plane and brings his rhetoric to nations where he is not president?

[Brillopad]

Well yes but he's the democratically elected president of The United States, by US citizens, and any protest about him coming to the UK / interacting with the UK is surely a protest against him having any political influence over the UK... Where he is not an elected anything.

I mean I would understand your point if there was a planeload of British folks heading to Washington to stage an anti-Trump demonstration... But that's not what's happening. No one is protesting against the democratically elected Trump doing whatever it is he does in his own country... Only when he boards a plane and brings his rhetoric to nations where he is not president?

He was invited by our government as the US President. What political influence exactly is he trying to impose on the Brits? Do some of the British Public now think they can dictate what high ranking Western politicians the government can invite to the UK!

I think some, like Jones, are getting a bit too big for their boots. He isn’t a mass murderer! People who vocalise what a fool the man is sure act as though they see him as a considerable threat.

[Twosugars]

I can think of many people much more deserving of such an act than Trump, pointless as it is. Maybe we should leave the burning of effigies and the like - together with the implied threats - to the likes of ISIS and their supporters as that kind of moronic act is much more up their street and I see no reason for the West to lower themselves to their level. :rolleyes:
:hehe:
Get of your high horse about the West, Brillo. No need to bring ISIS into it.
Burning effigies is an old British tradition. The only innovation I suggested was time and place.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/fire-in-their-bellies-meet-sussexs-traditional-bonfire-societies-8914042.html

A gigantic effigy of the disgraced film producer Harvey Weinstein will be burned at a Bonfire Night celebration in Kent this weekend. The Edenbridge Bonfire Society, which chooses a celebrity Guy to go alongside the traditional effigy of failed plotter Guy Fawkes every year
A 30-ft effigy of former apprentice star Katie Hopkins was burned at Edenbridge Bonfire celebrations last Saturday. Festival organsisers described her as an “easy choice” due to her “silly remarks” this year. Katie joins a group that includes Bill Clinton, Osama Bin Laden and Barack Obama, all of whom have had effigies burned as part of traditional bonfire celebrations in Kent and Sussex.

[Brillopad]

:hehe:
Get of your high horse about the West, Brillo. No need to bring ISIS into it.
Burning effigies is an old British tradition. The only innovation I suggested was time and place.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/fire-in-their-bellies-meet-sussexs-traditional-bonfire-societies-8914042.html

And you support that! I find that total hypocricy of people taking the moral high ground one minute then acting like bullies and dictators the next. Total hypocrites.

Burning effigies is a pretty aggressive, violent and primitive act and hardly appropriate for a gobby tv printer/columnist and sexual pest/rapist of a film producer. As I said there are far worse offenders we could be protesting about, especially in such a infantile way - it smacks of pack-mentality and revenge - the opposite of what such people preach. A good case of do as I say - not what I do!

[Jack_]

I've met Owen twice and he was nothing but lovely, approachable and down to earth. Some of the vitriol in this thread is absurd.

What's more is (and I'm really getting tired of having to explain this, I lose brain cells every time I do) protesting cannot be anti-democratic, because the act of protest is quite literally democracy in action. There are no two ways about this. It doesn't matter whether you think the cause is worthy, or stupid, or pointless, people are entitled to protest about whatever they like - regardless of whether or not it will have any effect. And THAT'S democracy.

[Twosugars]

Brillo, chill. You're getting too worked up in this hot weather.
Burning effigies is a staple of political protests. It will go on whether you like it or not.
I bet Trump's narcissism would be tickled if we told him his effigy would be the biggest and the bestest in the world.

[kirklancaster]

She is such a div isn't she Kirk,:laugh:
https://i.imgur.com/2i9HXGL.jpg

:joker::joker::joker: Though when I recall that it is 30 years that this dangerous, racist buffoon has been in politics and that now she has a top position in the Shadow Cabinet, I'm afraid that the 'jOKE' is firmly upon us Kaz.

[Kazanne]

And you support that! I find that total hypocricy of people taking the moral high ground one minute then acting like bullies and dictators the next. Total hypocrites.

Burning effigies is a pretty aggressive, violent and primitive act and hardly appropriate for a gobby tv printer/columnist and sexual pest/rapist of a film producer. As I said there are far worse offenders we could be protesting about, especially in such a infantile way - it smacks of pack-mentality and revenge - the opposite of what such people preach. A good case of do as I say - not what I do!

Good post brillo,no real need to add anything :wavey: except that burning effigies achieves nothing just proves the childish mindset of some.

[kirklancaster]

I've met Owen twice and he was nothing but lovely, approachable and down to earth. Some of the vitriol in this thread is absurd.

What's more is (and I'm really getting tired of having to explain this, I lose brain cells every time I do) protesting cannot be anti-democratic, because the act of protest is quite literally democracy in action. There are no two ways about this. It doesn't matter whether you think the cause is worthy, or stupid, or pointless, people are entitled to protest about whatever they like - regardless of whether or not it will have any effect. And THAT'S democracy.

Fair points Jack, but I have met Nigel Farage numerous times and have also found him always friendly, ultra-civil and polite, sincere, very intelligent and knowledgeable, and very approachable, but such DIRECT personal experience would not sway any anti-Farage members on here to change their dislike of him.

Also, I agree that PEACEFUL protests ARE a part of 'Democracy In Action' but, experience has shown us - time and time again - that these protests are anything but peaceful, and that is down to the Anti-Democratic factions which are behind these protests, the Political Agitators employed by them to take control of the way in which the protests develop ensuing violence and anarchy, and the mindless unknowing sheep who go along with the protests.

I would also argue that Democracy In Action could also be defined as accepting State Protocol.

[Brillopad]

Brillo, chill. You're getting too worked up in this hot weather.
Burning effigies is a staple of political protests. It will go on whether you like it or not.
I bet Trump's narcissism would be tickled if we told him his effigy would be the biggest and the bestest in the world.

Of course it will go on - the kids have to have their hypocritical fun! If it makes them feel better - which I doubt it will. They will still be filled with hate.

[Brillopad]

I've met Owen twice and he was nothing but lovely, approachable and down to earth. Some of the vitriol in this thread is absurd.

What's more is (and I'm really getting tired of having to explain this, I lose brain cells every time I do) protesting cannot be anti-democratic, because the act of protest is quite literally democracy in action. There are no two ways about this. It doesn't matter whether you think the cause is worthy, or stupid, or pointless, people are entitled to protest about whatever they like - regardless of whether or not it will have any effect. And THAT'S democracy.

Democracy when it suits as the very same people are those desperately trying to overturn a democratic vote by British people to leave the EU. So please don’t preach about democracy whilst one of our oldest acts of democracy - the vote - is being ignored by those who insist on having their way despite the result.

[kirklancaster]

Democracy when it suits as the very same people are those desperately trying to overturn a democratic vote by British people to leave the EU. So please don’t preach about democracy whilst one of our oldest acts of democracy - the vote - is being ignored by those who insist on having their way despite the result.

Great point Brillo.

[user104658]

Democracy when it suits as the very same people are those desperately trying to overturn a democratic vote by British people to leave the EU. So please don’t preach about democracy whilst one of our oldest acts of democracy - the vote - is being ignored by those who insist on having their way despite the result.

To be fair, I don't know of many people who are just saying "ignore the vote", just that there should be a second vote to confirm that it is indeed what the majority of people still want.

I do understand people's reasons for not wanting "vote after vote" (although, I personally don't think one follow up vote on such a huge undertaking as brexit is unwarranted)... HOWEVER... you can't claim that a second vote is undemocratic. If a follow up vote was to suggest that "the will of the people" has dramatically changed, then accepting that would be entirely democratic... arguably, more democratic than dogmatically accepting the outcome of one snapshot vote.

[Brillopad]

To be fair, I don't know of many people who are just saying "ignore the vote", just that there should be a second vote to confirm that it is indeed what the majority of people still want.

I do understand people's reasons for not wanting "vote after vote" (although, I personally don't think one follow up vote on such a huge undertaking as brexit is unwarranted)... HOWEVER... you can't claim that a second vote is undemocratic. If a follow up vote was to suggest that "the will of the people" has dramatically changed, then accepting that would be entirely democratic... arguably, more democratic than dogmatically accepting the outcome of one snapshot vote.

A second vote is simply an attempt to overturn the original vote - just dressed up to sideline the real intent whilst insulting the intelligence of those that voted. Come on TS you know it, I know it, everyone knows it! Why the heck should a second vote be any more valid than the first! It’s all bull**** and everyone knows it. Surprised at you TS.

[kirklancaster]

A second vote is simply an attempt to overturn the original vote - just dressed up to sideline the real intent whilst insulting the intelligence of those that voted. Come on TS you know it, I know it, everyone knows it! Why the heck should a second vote be any more valid than the first! It’s all bull**** and everyone knows it. Surprised at you TS.

The truth is that the Brexit result of the 'Referendum' was a COMPLETE and UTTER surprise to the Tories AND Labour - who BOTH desired for, and expected a huge 'Remain' result.

The Tories paid 'Lip Service' to the Referendum whilst covertly, the powerful Multi-Nationals, Super-Rich, and 'Landed' Classes - ALL who have vested interests in remaining in the EU - poured millions and huge resources into propaganda campaigns full of bollox and lies to brainwash us all into voting Remain.

The Labour Party were and are desperate to remain in the EU - thus the meandering of their leader Corbyn - but at least THEY were more upfront about it.

Since the result, NOTHING has changed, except now - instead of trying to brainwash us into 'staying in' - these lying bastards are using their massive resources and covert connections to instil fear into us all and try to make us doubt that our decision to Brexit was the correct one so that:

a) We will change our vote to 'Remain' if their campaign for a 'Second Referendum' had succeeded.
b) Be more ACCEPTING of ALL the many concessions which May is making to the EU as part of the Brexit 'Deal'.

There is no GENUINE reason for May to procrastinate or offer huge bribes or make other concessions to those crooked bastards in Europe and it is ALL part of the covert strategy to make us believe that we are OUT of the EU when - by the time May has finished with her B.S. concessions - we will be out in name only.

[user104658]

A second vote is simply an attempt to overturn the original vote - just dressed up to sideline the real intent whilst insulting the intelligence of those that voted. Come on TS you know it, I know it, everyone knows it! Why the heck should a second vote be any more valid than the first! It’s all bull**** and everyone knows it. Surprised at you TS.

That doesn't really matter though. Like I said - I fully understand why many people think that a second vote is unwarranted and unnecessary. I understand the government's inclination to hold their ground and not hold such a vote.

However, if there WAS a vote, so long as it is an open public vote, and the result is a true reflection of how genuine voters have voted... then there's just no way it can be described as "undemocratic".

For example; there was no reason at all for May to hold a General Election last summer. No one wanted it... it was a total waste of time... and the result ended up doing nothing but further muddy the waters. However... that doesn't mean that the result was undemocratic. :shrug:

[Twosugars]

As much as I hate it, Kirk, I think Brexit is gonna happen. But the referendum didn't address any details so these are up for a debate.

[Brillopad]

The truth is that the Brexit result of the 'Referendum' was a COMPLETE and UTTER surprise to the Tories AND Labour - who BOTH desired for, and expected a huge 'Remain' result.

The Tories paid 'Lip Service' to the Referendum whilst covertly, the powerful Multi-Nationals, Super-Rich, and 'Landed' Classes - ALL who have vested interests in remaining in the EU - poured millions and huge resources into propaganda campaigns full of bollox and lies to brainwash us all into voting Remain.

The Labour Party were and are desperate to remain in the EU - thus the meandering of their leader Corbyn - but at least THEY were more upfront about it.

Since the result, NOTHING has changed, except now - instead of trying to brainwash us into 'staying in' - these lying bastards are using their massive resources and covert connections to instil fear into us all and try to make us doubt that our decision to Brexit was the correct one so that:

a) We will change our vote to 'Remain' if their campaign for a 'Second Referendum' had succeeded.
b) Be more ACCEPTING of ALL the many concessions which May is making to the EU as part of the Brexit 'Deal'.

There is no GENUINE reason for May to procrastinate or offer huge bribes or make other concessions to those crooked bastards in Europe and it is ALL part of the covert strategy to make us believe that we are OUT of the EU when - by the time May has finished with her B.S. concessions - we will be out in name only.

The whole thing is a disgrace. Democracy my ar**! These people are dishonest, deceitful and downright determined to get their own way. They care little for Mr and Mrs average.

I really hope the majority of voters are not so easily fooled and accepting of the way their intelligence has been and continues to be insulted. We should not bow down to a second vote and should hold on to our ‘democracy’ with everything we have.

[user104658]

The truth is that the Brexit result of the 'Referendum' was a COMPLETE and UTTER surprise to the Tories AND Labour - who BOTH desired for, and expected a huge 'Remain' result.

The Tories paid 'Lip Service' to the Referendum whilst covertly, the powerful Multi-Nationals, Super-Rich, and 'Landed' Classes - ALL who have vested interests in remaining in the EU - poured millions and huge resources into propaganda campaigns full of bollox and lies to brainwash us all into voting Remain.

The Labour Party were and are desperate to remain in the EU - thus the meandering of their leader Corbyn - but at least THEY were more upfront about it.

Since the result, NOTHING has changed, except now - instead of trying to brainwash us into 'staying in' - these lying bastards are using their massive resources and covert connections to instil fear into us all and try to make us doubt that our decision to Brexit was the correct one so that:

a) We will change our vote to 'Remain' if their campaign for a 'Second Referendum' had succeeded.
b) Be more ACCEPTING of ALL the many concessions which May is making to the EU as part of the Brexit 'Deal'.

There is no GENUINE reason for May to procrastinate or offer huge bribes or make other concessions to those crooked bastards in Europe and it is ALL part of the covert strategy to make us believe that we are OUT of the EU when - by the time May has finished with her B.S. concessions - we will be out in name only.

The thing is Kirk, you're totally right with our first point there: The people who allowed the vote to happen very stupidly believed that they had predicted the outcome of the vote and that it would be remain... and the vote was lipservice to "put the issue to bed". Thus, they didn't bother to look into the practicalities of separating from Europe at all before holding the vote.

As far as I can tell, that's left us with a situation where it's not that the government is "dilly dallying" or specifically trying to "get out of it"... it's that dopmestic and European politics and trade became so intertwined over the last few decades that untangling them "fully", even with the best will to do so in the world, is proving to be practically impossible. They're procrastinating because they want the dust to have settled A LOT before they admit that they have no idea how to make it work.

[Withano]

Good post brillo,no real need to add anything :wavey: except that burning effigies achieves nothing just proves the childish mindset of some.

But you're calling it childish when it's against trump, and you laughed and added to the hate-wagon when Kirk suggested doing it to Abbot? Picking both sides and neither sides of the fence at the same time here. It's very odd.

[Brillopad]

That doesn't really matter though. Like I said - I fully understand why many people think that a second vote is unwarranted and unnecessary. I understand the government's inclination to hold their ground and not hold such a vote.

However, if there WAS a vote, so long as it is an open public vote, and the result is a true reflection of how genuine voters have voted... then there's just no way it can be described as "undemocratic".

For example; there was no reason at all for May to hold a General Election last summer. No one wanted it... it was a total waste of time... and the result ended up doing nothing but further muddy the waters. However... that doesn't mean that the result was undemocratic. :shrug:

People are being deceived and misinformed by those having the the nerve to claim people were deceived and misinformed prior to the original vote. We are simply going around in circles and a second vote would be no more ‘honest and enlightened’ than the first. That in my book would make it undemocratic - because some will have given in to the constant fear-mongering by many. That is not an informed decision.

[Brillopad]

But you're calling it childish when it's against trump, and you laughed and added to the hate-wagon when Kirk suggested doing it to Abbot? Picking both sides and neither sides of the fence at the same time here. It's very odd.

Hyperthetically joking about it and actually doing it are hardly the same! :shrug:

[Withano]

Hyperthetically joking about it and actually doing it are hardly the same! :shrug:

Yeh. Especially when it's to agree with someone we're friendly with, and to belittle someone we don't talk to much in the same breath :wavey:

Choor, all that negative tibb cliquey stuff went away not so long back. Only lord knows why it's come back recently :think:

[Brillopad]

Yeh. Especially when it's to agree with someone we're friendly with, and to belittle someone we don't talk to much in the same breath :wavey:

Choor, all that negative tibb cliquey stuff went away not so long back. Only lord knows why it's come back recently :think:

Give it a break - nothing cliquey about you and yours then! :rolleyes::

[user104658]

That in my book would make it undemocratic - because some will have given in to the constant fear-mongering by many. That is not an informed decision.

Then every vote is undemocratic, because this goes on before every vote or election and has done since the very beginnings of democracy... it's always been there and you either believe it's a system that people can see through / work around, or you don't. You surely can't claim that voters were immune to being swayed by fear before the original referrendum and the result was legitimate... but THIS time, all of a sudden the very same voters ARE going to be swayed by fear, making a second vote undemocratic?

Either both of the results are fair and democratic... or neither of them are.


[Note: I'm actually on the fence about where I stand on the above statement. I agree that these votes are manipulated by interested parties and the media... I think the results very rarely reflect "the real truth of the matter"... but that's not a new thing starting with Brexit, it's been going on with the GE since voting became fully open to the general public - 100 years ago this year.]

[Brillopad]

Then every vote is undemocratic, because this goes on before every vote or election and has done since the very beginnings of democracy... it's always been there and you either believe it's a system that people can see through / work around, or you don't. You surely can't claim that voters were immune to being swayed by fear before the original referrendum and the result was legitimate... but THIS time, all of a sudden the very same voters ARE going to be swayed by fear, making a second vote undemocratic?

Either both of the results are fair and democratic... or neither of them are.


[Note: I'm actually on the fence about where I stand on the above statement. I agree that these votes are manipulated by interested parties and the media... I think the results very rarely reflect "the real truth of the matter"... but that's not a new thing starting with Brexit, it's been going on with the GE since voting became fully open to the general public - 100 years ago this year.]

As the first was fair and democratic there is no need for a second - simples!

[user104658]

As the first was fair and democratic there is no need for a second - simples!Again... There being no need for one doesn't make it Undemocratic to have one.

[Tom4784]

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

[Brillopad]

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

Votes indeed do have consequences - but no doubt if Brexit is the success many believe it can be the sour-faced remainers doing their worst to stop it will undoubedely be quick to reap the benefits - hope they choke on it.

[Cherie]

Yeh. Especially when it's to agree with someone we're friendly with, and to belittle someone we don't talk to much in the same breath :wavey:

Choor, all that negative tibb cliquey stuff went away not so long back. Only lord knows why it's come back recently :think:

Who left?

[Cherie]

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

Don't get that argument all all, people get to review their vote every 5 years or so in a GL, they also get to boot in and out councils, there should be a vote on the final deal, a straight yes/no backed up by a load of lies on both sides should be up for review

[kirklancaster]

Yeh. Especially when it's to agree with someone we're friendly with, and to belittle someone we don't talk to much in the same breath :wavey:

Choor, all that negative tibb cliquey stuff went away not so long back. Only lord knows why it's come back recently :think:


:joker: Is that me you're alluding to? I'd like to take the credit but the fact is that 'this negative tibb cliquey stuff' has always been present on here - though it was usually 'Left-leaning' members 'gang-banging' solitary members who disagreed with their joint skewed viewpoints.

Oh, and then it erupted again during my absence, I believe. :wavey:

[kirklancaster]

You can't complain about 'fear-mongering' while ignoring the fallacies and fairy tales that formed the cornerstones of the Leave campaign. It's basically complaining about one cheap tactic just because the cheap tactic you backed wouldn't work twice in a row.

Every vote is democratic by nature, you can't just disavow things because they might not go your way. I voted Remain yet I wouldn't want a second vote to happen just because people who don't know what fact checking is believed in the lies of the Leave camp and now they regret it. Votes have consequences and people need to lie in the bed that they've made.

:laugh: See - this is why SD is such fun, your slant on who the liars were on the EU facts and figures is the POLAR opposite of mine.

And we will NEVER agree no matter how many posts we make.

[kirklancaster]

As much as I hate it, Kirk, I think Brexit is gonna happen. But the referendum didn't address any details so these are up for a debate.

I take your point Twosugars and respect you for making it civilly.

[Withano]

Who left?
Nobody said anybody left.. unless you know something I don’t
[/B]

:joker: Is that me you're alluding to? I'd like to take the credit but the fact is that 'this negative tibb cliquey stuff' has always been present on here - though it was usually 'Left-leaning' members 'gang-banging' solitary members who disagreed with their joint skewed viewpoints.

Oh, and then it erupted again during my absence, I believe. :wavey:

No, I’m not pointing fingers. I was just stating that there was a good two-week break from all the petiness, cliques, and drama a little while back, but it seems to have all come back very recently.

I’m not aware of the time that it ‘erupted in your absence’ but I’ve been wrong before.

[Cherie]

Nobody said anybody left.. unless you know something I don’t


No, I’m not pointing fingers. I was just stating that there was a good two-week break from all the petiness, cliques, and drama a little while back, but it seems to have all come back very recently.

I’m not aware of the time that it ‘erupted in your absence’ but I’ve been wrong before.

Dunno maybe you need to look at your own interactions, for someone who doesn't want drama, you seem very keen to upset certain members, that's the way I see it anyway

[Tom4784]

Don't get that argument all all, people get to review their vote every 5 years or so in a GL, they also get to boot in and out councils, there should be a vote on the final deal, a straight yes/no backed up by a load of lies on both sides should be up for review

You don't get it because you're applying my one off vote logic to recurring votes like Elections.

The public have had their say twice on Brexit, the first was whether or not it should happen and the second was the general election which basically turned into a 'which party do you want running Brexit' vote. If people don't get the Brexit they want then it's their own fault for voting poorly. We've known since before the election that Theresa May's government was weak yet people got suckered into voting for her because she repeated a slogan ad infinitum like she was a pokemon.

Remember that the original Referendum question was whether or not people wanted to leave or remain, it wasn't what kind of Brexit they wanted if we left. That would be determined by which party got voted into power and the people chose a wishy washy government who will likely be bowled over by the EU.

If we keep having referendums on whether we like the way Brexit is going then we'd have one every few months.

[Withano]

Dunno maybe you need to look at your own interactions, for someone who doesn't want drama, you seem very keen to upset certain members, that's the way I see it anyway

I dunno, none of that happened when a handful of members left a little while back, doesnt seem like the obvious conclusion.

[Cherie]

I dunno, none of that happened when a handful of members left a little while back, doesnt seem like the obvious conclusion.

A quick run down of the threads in SD will show a pattern of behaviour from you, it doesn't take Einstein to see it either

[Tom4784]

Votes indeed do have consequences - but no doubt if Brexit is the success many believe it can be the sour-faced remainers doing their worst to stop it will undoubedely be quick to reap the benefits - hope they choke on it.

Considering that Micheal Gove was telling people to ignore expert advice on what would happen if we left the EU, it doesn't paint a strong picture for the likely outcome and being optimistic won't change that. If the leaders of the Leave movement were trying to tell people to ignore expert advice just because it wasn't what they wanted to hear then what does that say for the chances of a successful Brexit?

[Cherie]

You don't get it because you're applying my one off vote logic to recurring votes like Elections.

The public have had their say twice on Brexit, the first was whether or not it should happen and the second was the general election which basically turned into a 'which party do you want running Brexit' vote. If people don't get the Brexit they want then it's their own fault for voting poorly. We've known since before the election that Theresa May's government was weak yet people got suckered into voting for her because she repeated a slogan ad infinitum like she was a pokemon.

Remember that the original Referendum question was whether or not people wanted to leave or remain, it wasn't what kind of Brexit they wanted if we left. That would be determined by which party got voted into power and the people chose a wishy washy government who will likely be bowled over by the EU.

If we keep having referendums on whether we like the way Brexit is going then we'd have one every few months.

The whole campaign was based on lies and presumptions from both sides, as an electorate we shouldn't accept that, run a clean campaign with facts not scaremongering then I will accept the result

[Brillopad]

Considering that Micheal Gove was telling people to ignore expert advice on what would happen if we left the EU, it doesn't paint a strong picture for the likely outcome and being optimistic won't change that. If the leaders of the Leave movement were trying to tell people to ignore expert advice just because it wasn't what they wanted to hear then what does that say for the chances of a successful Brexit?

There are experts on both sides so attempting to suggest expert advice is all against Brexit is not well informed or honest, whichever applies.

[kirklancaster]

A quick run down of the threads in SD will show a pattern of behaviour from you, it doesn't take Einstein to see it either

:clap1::clap1::clap1: All so TRUE Cherie. All so true.

[Tom4784]

The whole campaign was based on lies and presumptions from both sides, as an electorate we shouldn't accept that, run a clean campaign with facts not scaremongering then I will accept the result

It would be nice but it's not going to happen, neither the voters nor the politicians are interested in facts.

[Tom4784]

There are experts on both sides so attempting to suggest expert advice is all against Brexit is not well informed or honest, whichever applies.

Can you offer proof of the main Remain leaders telling the voting public to disregard expert opinions they didn't like? I can't remember seeing anything like what Gove said from the Remain side.

[Brillopad]

Nobody said anybody left.. unless you know something I don’t


No, I’m not pointing fingers. I was just stating that there was a good two-week break from all the petiness, cliques, and drama a little while back, but it seems to have all come back very recently.

I’m not aware of the time that it ‘erupted in your absence’ but I’ve been wrong before.

Maybe because you had no one to argue with!

[kirklancaster]

It would be nice but it's not going to happen, neither the voters nor the politicians are interested in facts.

I agree about the Politicians but I know lots of voters who are clamouring for honesty and hard facts.

[Kazanne]

I dunno, none of that happened when a handful of members left a little while back, doesnt seem like the obvious conclusion.

No one left,people often have breaks,what does it matter to you anyway when people come and go:shrug:

[Brillopad]

Can you offer proof of the main Remain leaders telling the voting public to disregard expert opinions they didn't like? I can't remember seeing anything like what Gove said from the Remain side.

There were and are many experts stating that Brexit will be a good thing for this country and it’s economy. I don’t much care about Gove - don’t like the man - or whether anyone from the remain camp said the same thing as him.

[Tom4784]

I agree about the Politicians but I know lots of voters who are clamouring for honesty and hard facts.

But the majority of voters will vote for anything that they want to hear regardless of whether it's true or not. Look at the referendum and how effective the lie about the NHS getting more funding if we leave was despite there being plenty of proof that Brexit wouldn't affect NHS funding, it was a lie that was dropped the morning Leave won yet it was one that would have brought in a lot of voters who wouldn't have fact checked because they voted for the lies they wanted to hear.

Most voters aren't well informed, it's just simply the truth.

[Withano]

No one left,people often have breaks,what does it matter to you anyway when people come and go:shrug:

I was just commenting on how all the petty jibes, cliqueyness, and drama wasnt here a couple weeks back, but seems to have all returned very recently.

It was relevant when I first brought it up (because it happened inside of this thread for the first time in ages), it just seems super offtopic now though.

[Maru]

So if the people voted in the UK to leave the EU, it's the people's fault(?) for voting the wrong way because the politicians won't do the job they've signed on to do?... No, that's not how it works at all... Don't post in SD. Call your rep. It's no-one elses business how you've decided to vote, much less why... if they have a problem with it, let them pound sand. When the politicians are fail to do their job, hold them accountable.

[Withano]

So if the people voted in the UK to leave the EU, it's the people's fault(?) for voting the wrong way because the politicians won't do the job they've signed on to do?... No, that's not how it works at all... Don't post in SD. Call your rep. It's no-one elses business how you've decided to vote, much less why... if they have a problem with it, let them pound sand. When the politicians are fail to do their job, hold them accountable.

Your job is to land this plane

I dont know how to land the plane

Sorry the passengers of this plane all voted, you must land the plane

I still dont know how

It is the will of the people

Im probably going to fail

NOT GOOD ENOUGH

[user104658]

Your job is to land this plane

I dont know how to land the plane

Sorry the passengers of this plane all voted, you must land the plane

I still dont know how

It is the will of the people

Im probably going to fail

NOT GOOD ENOUGH

More like

"Land the plane..."

"It doesn't have wheels! We need to parachute out!"

"Land it..."

"It only has one wing! And no engines!"

"LAND THE DAMN PLANE"

[Tom4784]

So if the people voted in the UK to leave the EU, it's the people's fault(?) for voting the wrong way because the politicians won't do the job they've signed on to do?... No, that's not how it works at all... Don't post in SD. Call your rep. It's no-one elses business how you've decided to vote, much less why... if they have a problem with it, let them pound sand. When the politicians are fail to do their job, hold them accountable.

We had the choice of whether to stay or go, we had the choice of who runs the show and we still voted to keep an incompetent government in place despite knowing how terrible they were. Of course it's the people's fault if they are unhappy with how things go because THEY are the ones who decided to leave, they are the ones who decided which party should handle Brexit.

The bit about 'contacting your rep' is all well and good but it's not realistic. The Tories are running things and they'll be running things for years until the next election at least, they don't give a **** what people think because the election is way off. It doesn't matter if people are happy with Brexit or not, the referendum was to decide whether to leave or not, not HOW we should leave. The only control we had over that was deciding which government should handle it and people chose a terrible party to do it.

Voters only have themselves to blame.

[Brillopad]

We had the choice of whether to stay or go, we had the choice of who runs the show and we still voted to keep an incompetent government in place despite knowing how terrible they were. Of course it's the people's fault if they are unhappy with how things go because THEY are the ones who decided to leave, they are the ones who decided which party should handle Brexit.

The bit about 'contacting your rep' is all well and good but it's not realistic. The Tories are running things and they'll be running things for years until the next election at least, they don't give a **** what people think because the election is way off. It doesn't matter if people are happy with Brexit or not, the referendum was to decide whether to leave or not, not HOW we should leave. The only control we had over that was deciding which government should handle it and people chose a terrible party to do it.

Voters only have themselves to blame.

Blame for what exactly - do you have a crystal ball? Even the experts cannot agree on the outcome so how you profess to know is quite extraordinary! :rolleyes:

[kirklancaster]

So if the people voted in the UK to leave the EU, it's the people's fault(?) for voting the wrong way because the politicians won't do the job they've signed on to do?... No, that's not how it works at all... Don't post in SD. Call your rep. It's no-one elses business how you've decided to vote, much less why... if they have a problem with it, let them pound sand. When the politicians are fail to do their job, hold them accountable.

Brilliantly expressed Maru. 'Tis no surprise though that it has fallen on deaf ears.

[kirklancaster]

More like

"Land the plane..."

"It doesn't have wheels! We need to parachute out!"

"Land it..."

"It only has one wing! And no engines!"

"LAND THE DAMN PLANE"

And you once lectured me on hyperbole. :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

We had the choice of whether to stay or go, we had the choice of who runs the show and we still voted to keep an incompetent government in place despite knowing how terrible they were. Of course it's the people's fault if they are unhappy with how things go because THEY are the ones who decided to leave, they are the ones who decided which party should handle Brexit.

The bit about 'contacting your rep' is all well and good but it's not realistic. The Tories are running things and they'll be running things for years until the next election at least, they don't give a **** what people think because the election is way off. It doesn't matter if people are happy with Brexit or not, the referendum was to decide whether to leave or not, not HOW we should leave. The only control we had over that was deciding which government should handle it and people chose a terrible party to do it.

Voters only have themselves to blame.

With Corbyn and Abbott in opposition, the Tories will be 'running things' well into the 3rd Millenium.

As to 'Blame', I echo what Brillopad says - No One KNOWS for certain whether Brexit will be a positive or Negative for the UK.

I believe that if events were ALLOWED to take place WITHOUT the covert and sinister machinations and interference of the 'Illuminati' (for want of a better word) who WANT us to remain in the EU, then Brexit WILL only be beneficial for the UK.

That 'IF'is the key though because Brexiteers are up against a very powerful, very wealthy, very well organised, very well connected enemy who are aided indirectly by covert factions within the Labour Party who share the same 'Remain' objective though for different reasons.

Finally as poor as the Tories are proving to be - there is NO viable alternative because if Corbyn gets into power, all the complaints about the Tories will seem oh so petty.

[Maru]

Brilliantly expressed Maru. 'Tis no surprise though that it has fallen on deaf ears.

It's OK, SD happens...

https://media.giphy.com/media/hlIA6K9YlRNwk/giphy.gif

[Tom4784]

Blame for what exactly - do you have a crystal ball? Even the experts cannot agree on the outcome so how you profess to know is quite extraordinary! :rolleyes:

I trust what's been said by a wide variety of experts on all sides, not just the ones I cherry pick to suit my opinion.

Very few experts have anything good to say when it comes to Brexit.

[Tom4784]

With Corbyn and Abbott in opposition, the Tories will be 'running things' well into the 3rd Millenium.

As to 'Blame', I echo what Brillopad says - No One KNOWS for certain whether Brexit will be a positive or Negative for the UK.

I believe that if events were ALLOWED to take place WITHOUT the covert and sinister machinations and interference of the 'Illuminati' (for want of a better word) who WANT us to remain in the EU, then Brexit WILL only be beneficial for the UK.

That 'IF'is the key though because Brexiteers are up against a very powerful, very wealthy, very well organised, very well connected enemy who are aided indirectly by covert factions within the Labour Party who share the same 'Remain' objective though for different reasons.

Finally as poor as the Tories are proving to be - there is NO viable alternative because if Corbyn gets into power, all the complaints about the Tories will seem oh so petty.

It's going to have a negative impact and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) nor will blaming people who simply haven't gotten on board with it. Good intentions and pretending everything is fine won't stave off the inevitable and not liking how things are won't speed it up either.

[Brillopad]

I trust what's been said by a wide variety of experts on all sides, not just the ones I cherry pick to suit my opinion.

Very few experts have anything good to say when it comes to Brexit.

Rubbish. There are plenty. And you talk of cherry-picking!

[bots]

We had the choice of whether to stay or go, we had the choice of who runs the show and we still voted to keep an incompetent government in place despite knowing how terrible they were. Of course it's the people's fault if they are unhappy with how things go because THEY are the ones who decided to leave, they are the ones who decided which party should handle Brexit.

The bit about 'contacting your rep' is all well and good but it's not realistic. The Tories are running things and they'll be running things for years until the next election at least, they don't give a **** what people think because the election is way off. It doesn't matter if people are happy with Brexit or not, the referendum was to decide whether to leave or not, not HOW we should leave. The only control we had over that was deciding which government should handle it and people chose a terrible party to do it.

Voters only have themselves to blame.

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

[user104658]

And you once lectured me on hyperbole. [emoji23]"Land the damn spaceship!"

"She cannae take any more, captain!"

"Land goddamn it and phasers set to kill!"

:laugh2:

[kirklancaster]

"Land the damn spaceship!"

"She cannae take any more, captain!"

"Land goddamn it and phasers set to kill!"

:laugh2:

:joker: "Beam me fecking up Scotty T.S has flipped". Lol you nutter. :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Some excellent points BOTS.

[Cherie]

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

Like you I voted remain because of better the devil you know and some of the arguments didn't ring through, and I am not that opposed to Brexit either, I would just like to have been given truths and facts rather than a load of hogwash. I think the Irish border is a dealbreaker and will see us staying in the customs union, I can't see any way around it.

[Tom4784]

I don't believe they are an incompetent government, quite the opposite actually. Too much regarding competence is subjectively defined by political persuasion.

I voted remain, because I felt the status quo was the better option, but brexit in itself doesnt bother me. People have such short term views and they shouldn't. It took 40 years for us to get the state of integration that we have now with the EU and it will take another 40 years of shaping relationships on brexit until we can truly decide if it was the correct path. By that time, the world will have changed beyond all recognition. Governments from left and right will have shaped the future. It's not and never will be about the now

It's all well and good saying we'll know if it was worth it in 40 years but what about the lives that will be in ruins in the here and now when, chances are, Brexit ends up going terribly? I doubt 'Things will be better in 40 years, just you see!' will be a comfort to people who have lost their homes because we've slid into another recession or worse.

I think you're being very optimistic and you're minimalising the effects that Brexit may have on people now by saying that it might be worth it in the future. We don't need to be optimistic, we need to be realistic.

[user104658]

So basically, in 40 years time when the majority of people who voted for Brexit will be dead and buried, we will MAYBE SORT OF be able to see if things are KIND OF ok, except totally different anyway... and if things are good, any remaining Brexit voters can say "See! This is cos of Brexit, it was right after all!"... and if things are NOT good they can say "Nothing to do with Brexit, that was decades ago and the world is a totally different place now".

:think:

[Brillopad]

It's all well and good saying we'll know if it was worth it in 40 years but what about the lives that will be in ruins in the here and now when, chances are, Brexit ends up going terribly? I doubt 'Things will be better in 40 years, just you see!' will be a comfort to people who have lost their homes because we've slid into another recession or worse.

I think you're being very optimistic and you're minimalising the effects that Brexit may have on people now by saying that it might be worth it in the future. We don't need to be optimistic, we need to be realistic.

We don’t need to be pessimistic - we need to be realistic. You are not an expert on Brexit and thinking the worse does not make you right. It is simply your pessimistic opinion. Wallow in that all you like - just don’t expect the rest of us too. It

[Jack_]

Fair points Jack, but I have met Nigel Farage numerous times and have also found him always friendly, ultra-civil and polite, sincere, very intelligent and knowledgeable, and very approachable, but such DIRECT personal experience would not sway any anti-Farage members on here to change their dislike of him.

Also, I agree that PEACEFUL protests ARE a part of 'Democracy In Action' but, experience has shown us - time and time again - that these protests are anything but peaceful, and that is down to the Anti-Democratic factions which are behind these protests, the Political Agitators employed by them to take control of the way in which the protests develop ensuing violence and anarchy, and the mindless unknowing sheep who go along with the protests.

I would also argue that Democracy In Action could also be defined as accepting State Protocol.

That doesn't surprise me, I can imagine that Farage would be a perfectly decent person to go for a pint with. And while I agree that may be the case with a lot of people, it's not for me. My point is that just because people disagree with someone's political opinions it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, and many of the comments in here were just absurd. I'll add the caveat that this is less so the case with people who are exerting direct influence over people's lives (i.e. a sitting PM and ministers), but Owen and to a lesser extent Farage aren't doing that.

Most of the protests in question are peaceful, with respect Kirk. As with any protest that attracts a significant turnout, there will always be a minority of opportunists looking to cause trouble. It's also important to point out the role that the police often have in provoking violence and unrest - kettling is a deliberate and almost surefire way to antagonise people and in a lot of these scenarios that's how it begins. The problem is of course is that you only get to hear of the unrest, whilst there are thousands upon thousands of people from all walks of life who have turned up with their family, friends and kids to walk down a street with a few banners. The demonstrations being organised (that provoked this thread) will be much the same thing, and I don't see a problem with that. I won't be attending one, but all power to those who do - I hope they enjoy exercising their democratic right to be there.

With regards to the last sentence - unless I've misunderstood, I totally disagree. Making people accept the status quo with no dissent Just Because is a very slippery slope...

Democracy when it suits as the very same people are those desperately trying to overturn a democratic vote by British people to leave the EU. So please don’t preach about democracy whilst one of our oldest acts of democracy - the vote - is being ignored by those who insist on having their way despite the result.

How many times do I have to explain this to you? Democracy doesn't begin and end at the ballot box. If it did, what would be the point in having an official opposition to the government in parliament? Why not just let them get on with it without scrutiny or criticism? That always works well!

If democracy begins and ends with elections and referenda, then how come those who wanted to leave the EU have been campaigning to do so for the last four decades? After - funnily enough - the last referendum we had on the matter? At what point does it become acceptable again to express one's opposition to a particular political issue? A year? Five years? A decade? Who decides this? You?

The fact is Brillo, in a fully functioning democracy, political dissent and scrutiny is not only permissible - it is encouraged. General elections and referenda are not the only democratic tools people have at their disposal. They have a number of other things too - enshrined into international law in fact. One is even that thing you protest to love so much - free speech! Freedom of assembly and the right to protest are others. If people disagree with any political agenda, whether that's Brexit, the cuts to the NHS, a town's youth centre being closed down, a Mosque opening in a local area - you name it - they're entitled to protest about it. And you will have to learn to accept that.

You got what you wanted. We're leaving the EU. I don't think any of the protests are going to make a blind bit of difference, and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about Brexit altogether - but they are still entitled to oppose it, protest it, call for another vote, for it to be overturned, whatever they like. Why are you so scared about that? My only advice would be to let them get on with it, it's going to make no difference to you.

[Brillopad]

That doesn't surprise me, I can imagine that Farage would be a perfectly decent person to go for a pint with. And while I agree that may be the case with a lot of people, it's not for me. My point is that just because people disagree with someone's political opinions it doesn't necessarily make them a bad person, and many of the comments in here were just absurd. I'll add the caveat that this is less so the case with people who are exerting direct influence over people's lives (i.e. a sitting PM and ministers), but Owen and to a lesser extent Farage aren't doing that.

Most of the protests in question are peaceful, with respect Kirk. As with any protest that attracts a significant turnout, there will always be a minority of opportunists looking to cause trouble. It's also important to point out the role that the police often have in provoking violence and unrest - kettling is a deliberate and almost surefire way to antagonise people and in a lot of these scenarios that's how it begins. The problem is of course is that you only get to hear of the unrest, whilst there are thousands upon thousands of people from all walks of life who have turned up with their family, friends and kids to walk down a street with a few banners. The demonstrations being organised (that provoked this thread) will be much the same thing, and I don't see a problem with that. I won't be attending one, but all power to those who do - I hope they enjoy exercising their democratic right to be there.

With regards to the last sentence - unless I've misunderstood, I totally disagree. Making people accept the status quo with no dissent Just Because is a very slippery slope...



How many times do I have to explain this to you? Democracy doesn't begin and end at the ballot box. If it did, what would be the point in having an official opposition to the government in parliament? Why not just let them get on with it without scrutiny or criticism? That always works well!

If democracy begins and ends with elections and referenda, then how come those who wanted to leave the EU have been campaigning to do so for the last four decades? After - funnily enough - the last referendum we had on the matter? At what point does it become acceptable again to express one's opposition to a particular political issue? A year? Five years? A decade? Who decides this? You?

The fact is Brillo, in a fully functioning democracy, political dissent and scrutiny is not only permissible - it is encouraged. General elections and referenda are not the only democratic tools people have at their disposal. They have a number of other things too - enshrined into international law in fact. One is even that thing you protest to love so much - free speech! Freedom of assembly and the right to protest are others. If people disagree with any political agenda, whether that's Brexit, the cuts to the NHS, a town's youth centre being closed down, a Mosque opening in a local area - you name it - they're entitled to protest about it. And you will have to learn to accept that.

You got what you wanted. We're leaving the EU. I don't think any of the protests are going to make a blind bit of difference, and quite frankly I'm sick of hearing about Brexit altogether - but they are still entitled to oppose it, protest it, call for another vote, for it to be overturned, whatever they like. Why are you so scared about that? My only advice would be to let them get on with it, it's going to make no difference to you.

No Jack democracy doesn’t begin and end at the ballot box - but we had a democratic vote. Protesting to overturn that vote because the vote didn’t go your way is undemocratic - how many times do I have to explain that.

What are these people expecting to happen - that they manage to overturn that vote, by whatever deceitful means, and finally get their way - is that your idea of democracy! What if people then protest against that - where does it stop. The vote has been made - and cannot be interfered with until it goes the ‘right’ way - now that would be the very worst kind of undemocratic rule now wouldn’t it!

[kirklancaster]

It's going to have a negative impact and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) nor will blaming people who simply haven't gotten on board with it. Good intentions and pretending everything is fine won't stave off the inevitable and not liking how things are won't speed it up either.

:laugh: Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

[Brillopad]

:laugh: Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

Another detailed and very informative post Kirk! Well said! :thumbs:

[Tom4784]

:laugh: Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

If I said anything like that, I'd get thinly veiled attack threads demanding my head.

[Tom4784]

We don’t need to be pessimistic - we need to be realistic. You are not an expert on Brexit and thinking the worse does not make you right. It is simply your pessimistic opinion. Wallow in that all you like - just don’t expect the rest of us too. It

Repeating what I said and positioning it as an attack on me isn't an argument, Brillo.

Of course it's my opinion, when did I say differently? I'm perfectly entitled to it, if I said anything like that to you, you'd be screaming about how I'm trying to suppress your opinion.

Most experts across the spectrum agree that Brexit is not going to go well, I'll believe them over ignoring likelihoods that don't benefit my views.

[Twosugars]

:laugh: Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

And on the other side press barons like Murdoch, Rothermere and the Barclay brothers (and people they sponsor/employ). All with cosy tax arrangements or not living in this country at all.
At least the people you quoted have thrown their lot with the country, unlike for example Dyson who moved his production to Malaysia.
Sorry, Kirk, but if Putin and Trump both think Brexit is a good thing, alarm bells should ring even in Brexiters ears.

[kirklancaster]

If I said anything like that, I'd get thinly veiled attack threads demanding my head.

I'm sorry Dezzy but I do not understand why you have a problem with ANY of my post.

I am not insulting or being personal but merely stating my opinion based on my perception of your posts and I even stated; "In my opinion".

Your posts on Brexit are not only ALWAYS arrogantly dismissive of the viewpoints of any other member where those viewpoints do not align with your own but also dismissive of any facts such members may state in order to support their viewpoint.

You are NOT an authority on Brexit or the EU Dezzy and have no monopoly on what is true or factual ONLY an opinion based on the same information which is out there which anyone can access.

I do not know your age but I would guess that you have not even the benefit of Direct Experience gained by having lived in the UK BEFORE that moralless deceitful liar Ted Heath conned us into the 'Common Market' which became the EU.

In your response to the post of Brillopad, you said:

"Of course it's my opinion, when did I say differently? I'm perfectly entitled to it"

Well, I am similarly entitled.

[kirklancaster]

And on the other side press barons like Murdoch, Rothermere and the Barclay brothers (and people they sponsor/employ). All with cosy tax arrangements or not living in this country at all.
At least the people you quoted have thrown their lot with the country, unlike for example Dyson who moved his production to Malaysia.
Sorry, Kirk, but if Putin and Trump both think Brexit is a good thing, alarm bells should ring even in Brexiters ears.

Sorry Twosugars, but Murdoch, Rothmere, the Barclay Brothers and Dyson do NOT receive Tax-Payers hard earned money at a rate of £300 per day (as much as a lot of hardworking people earn in a full week) nor do they sit in the House of Lords, and nor do they hold any direct power to thwart the legitimate decisions of a Democratically elected Government for their own individual AND collective purposes.

And 'thrown their lot in with the country' is just what they have NOT done, which is the whole essence of my post - they are LOYAL to their EU Paymasters NOT the UK populace or Government.

As for Trump and Putin, perhaps they regard Brexit as a good idea because it may well suit THEIR objectives, but the fact that have expressed such a view does not ring any alarm bells with me - not like the alarm bells which are triggered EVERY time Corbyn or Abbot open their Marxist mouths.

[Brillopad]

Repeating what I said and positioning it as an attack on me isn't an argument, Brillo.

Of course it's my opinion, when did I say differently? I'm perfectly entitled to it, if I said anything like that to you, you'd be screaming about how I'm trying to suppress your opinion.

Most experts across the spectrum agree that Brexit is not going to go well, I'll believe them over ignoring likelihoods that don't benefit my views.

MOST experts - is that so. Maybe you believe that because you only open your ears to those saying what you want to hear. Just a thought!

[kirklancaster]

MOST experts - is that so. Maybe you believe that because you only open your ears to those saying what you want to hear. Just a thought!

'Most Experts' who have a VESTED INTEREST in Remaining in the EU.

[Twosugars]

Sorry Twosugars, but Murdoch, Rothmere, the Barclay Brothers and Dyson do NOT receive Tax-Payers hard earned money at a rate of £300 per day (as much as a lot of hardworking people earn in a full week) nor do they sit in the House of Lords, and nor do they hold any direct power to thwart the legitimate decisions of a Democratically elected Government for their own individual AND collective purposes.

As for Trump and Putin, perhaps they regard Brexit as a good idea because it may well suit THEIR objectives, but the fact that have expressed such a view does not ring any alarm bells with me - not like the alarm bells which are triggered EVERY time Corbyn or Abbot open their Marxist mouths.

Kirk, really? That's a smoke screen. You know very well they hold enormous power. Directly by dictating editorial lines of their papers. Media is key in democracy. And indirectly they influence the government even more. You must have heard of frequent and cosy meetings of Murdoch in particular with sitting PMs. Half of government are their people, e.g. Johnson, Gove etc.


Re. Dezzy. I'm puzzled why you think he is being intolerant in his posts. I think he disagreed with Brillo quite politely.
Is this beef with him because of the combination of things like him being opinionated AND being a mod? I.e. would you also object if he posted as he does but stopped being a mod? Or stayed a mod but stopped posting?
Imagine how hard it must be to be both, I'm sure he doesn't enjoy being disliked by some. But otoh, why should he stop either?
This is off-topic and maybe we should talk about it in pms. But I promise I'm not going to get emotional about it like I did in the past and I won't call you a rightwing clique anymore. It's just I like this forum and the caliber of people on here and wish this beef would go away. Is it possible?

[bots]

Brexit will be neither good nor bad. It will simply be a new framework that people will work and live within. We had to adapt many times at huge expense to meet EU regulations. Many times those regulations resulted in personal hardship for individuals and for companies. This is life, people adapt to survive as they have always done and will always do

[Brillopad]

Kirk, really? That's a smoke screen. You know very well they hold enormous power. Directly by dictating editorial lines of their papers. Media is key in democracy. And indirectly they influence the government even more. You must have heard of frequent and cosy meetings of Murdoch in particular with sitting PMs. Half of government are their people, e.g. Johnson, Gove etc.


Re. Dezzy. I'm puzzled why you think he is being intolerant in his posts. I think he disagreed with Brillo quite politely.
Is this beef with him because of the combination of things like him being opinionated AND being a mod? I.e. would you also object if he posted as he does but stopped being a mod? Or stayed a mod but stopped posting?
Imagine how hard it must be to be both, I'm sure he doesn't enjoy being disliked by some. But otoh, why should he stop either?
This is off-topic and maybe we should talk about it in pms. But I promise I'm not going to get emotional about it like I did in the past and I won't call you a rightwing clique anymore. It's just I like this forum and the caliber of people on here and wish this beef would go away. Is it possible?

THere is a valid reason why he is disliked by some and it has nothing to do with being opinionated and a mod. There are other mods who are also both of those things - so with respect you really shouldn’t pass comment on something you are clearly not aware of!

[kirklancaster]

Kirk, really? That's a smoke screen. You know very well they hold enormous power. Directly by dictating editorial lines of their papers. Media is key in democracy. And indirectly they influence the government even more. You must have heard of frequent and cosy meetings of Murdoch in particular with sitting PMs. Half of government are their people, e.g. Johnson, Gove etc.


Re. Dezzy. I'm puzzled why you think he is being intolerant in his posts. I think he disagreed with Brillo quite politely.
Is this beef with him because of the combination of things like him being opinionated AND being a mod? I.e. would you also object if he posted as he does but stopped being a mod? Or stayed a mod but stopped posting?
Imagine how hard it must be to be both, I'm sure he doesn't enjoy being disliked by some. But otoh, why should he stop either?
This is off-topic and maybe we should talk about it in pms. But I promise I'm not going to get emotional about it like I did in the past and I won't call you a rightwing clique anymore. It's just I like this forum and the caliber of people on here and wish this beef would go away. Is it possible?

I'm aware of Murdoch's sway with certain politicians and it is unacceptable but that happens with wealthy influential figures on both sides of the Left and Right of politics and has ALWAYS gone on, but I maintain that Peers on public money should NOT have any power to vote on any motion where there is a Conflict of Interest.

As for Dezzy - My response was EXCLUSIVELY concerned with his posts on Brexit and NOTHING at all to do with anything else Twosugars.

I am not one for reopening old wounds.

That has been put to bed.

[Twosugars]

THere is a valid reason why he is disliked by some and it has nothing to do with being opinionated and a mod. There are other mods who are also both of those things - so with respect you really shouldn’t pass comment on something you are clearly not aware of!

I'm aware of Murdoch's sway with certain politicians and it is unacceptable but that happens with wealthy influential figures on both sides of the Left and Right of politics and has ALWAYS gone on, but I maintain that Peers on public money should NOT have any power to vote on any motion where there is a Conflict of Interest.

As for Dezzy - My response was EXCLUSIVELY concerned with his posts on Brexit and NOTHING at all to do with anything else Twosugars.

I am not one for reopening old wounds.

That has been put to bed.

Ok, I'll drop it then.

Kirk, we agree on the issue of undue influence.

[kirklancaster]

Ok, I'll drop it then.

Kirk, we agree on the issue of undue influence.

We certainly do Twosugars. I just wish that we could do something about it but we cannot.

[jaxie]

I find claims that the majority object to Trump as a bit bizarre as no one can really speak for the majority, only a national poll could do that.

How people personally feel about him is kind of irrelevant anyway, he is surprisingly reaping results on the world stage. Everyone should be grateful for North Korea's bum at the talks table. Trump got him there.

And Brexit seems to have found it's way in too, with regard the 'experts', are these the same people who told us the world would end the day after a leave vote? It didn't happen. No one has a crystal ball to the future and there is no gexample of a similar situation to point at so any 'expert' take on what will happen is pure speculation.

Once we have left the EU life will go on regardless, the fear is pretty pointless. For me the idea if staying in an organisation who created laws and rules for us that we had no say in for forty years is much more frightening. As is being handcuffed and gagged by our own politicals for 40 years by signing on to a political experiment we never sanctioned as a nation. Frightening and outrageous.

[user104658]

I find claims that the majority object to Trump as a bit bizarre as no one can really speak for the majority, only a national poll could do that.

How people personally feel about him is kind of irrelevant anyway, he is surprisingly reaping results on the world stage. Everyone should be grateful for North Korea's bum at the talks table. Trump got him there.

I'd say Trump is sort of "doing an ISIS" with a lot of these things to be honest. That is to say... things happen, for a variety of reasons, and Trump takes credit for it (like ISIS taking credit for every small scale terrorist attack when most have nothing to do with ISIS). Trump is really not the major factor that got NK to the negotiating table... but he's very very good at self-promotion, so it's not surprising that he's managed to create the narrative that it's all thanks to him.

[bots]

:laugh: Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

and just to highlight your point, in todays news:

Brexit: Jeremy Corbyn must change stance, says Lord Kinnock

Jeremy Corbyn will commit "a serious evasion of duty" if he does not change his stance on Brexit, former Labour leader Lord Kinnock has said.

The peer told the Independent that Labour should endorse the UK staying in the European Economic Area (EEA) or risk "sacrificing thousands" of jobs.

Staying in the EEA would mean the UK retained key aspects of the single market after leaving the EU.

But Mr Corbyn has opposed this idea as the UK would not make the rules.

Lord Kinnock was one of the 83 Labour peers who defied the party leadership this week and voted for an amendment to the EU Withdrawal Bill in the House of Lords to keep the UK in the EEA.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44092538

[Alf]

I'd say Trump is sort of "doing an ISIS" with a lot of these things to be honest. That is to say... things happen, for a variety of reasons, and Trump takes credit for it (like ISIS taking credit for every small scale terrorist attack when most have nothing to do with ISIS). Trump is really not the major factor that got NK to the negotiating table... but he's very very good at self-promotion, so it's not surprising that he's managed to create the narrative that it's all thanks to him.Is your inside information going to let us know who was the major factor?

[Brillopad]

Is your inside information going to let us know who was the major factor?

My thoughts exactly. It’s easy to say something is not so and elude to another ‘major factor’ but justifying the comment not so much.

[jaxie]

It seems to me that if they don't like someone then people will go to great lengths to discredit them, even when credit is due. There are many things Trump has said and done that I don't agree with but Obama didn't get 'rocket man' to the table nor did he offer to help restructure the country's broken economy. It appears that Trump has achieved this, kudos to him.

And in the news UN gains unprecedented access to North Korea.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44092623

[Tom4784]

I'm sorry Dezzy but I do not understand why you have a problem with ANY of my post.

I am not insulting or being personal but merely stating my opinion based on my perception of your posts and I even stated; "In my opinion".

Your posts on Brexit are not only ALWAYS arrogantly dismissive of the viewpoints of any other member where those viewpoints do not align with your own but also dismissive of any facts such members may state in order to support their viewpoint.

You are NOT an authority on Brexit or the EU Dezzy and have no monopoly on what is true or factual ONLY an opinion based on the same information which is out there which anyone can access.

I do not know your age but I would guess that you have not even the benefit of Direct Experience gained by having lived in the UK BEFORE that moralless deceitful liar Ted Heath conned us into the 'Common Market' which became the EU.

In your response to the post of Brillopad, you said:

"Of course it's my opinion, when did I say differently? I'm perfectly entitled to it"

Well, I am similarly entitled.

You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to make snide comments at me when you'd scream the place down if our positions were reversed.

MOST experts - is that so. Maybe you believe that because you only open your ears to those saying what you want to hear. Just a thought!

I see the irony of what you said here is lost on you.

You are closing your ears and writing your own narrative in downplaying the fact that most experts from most fields do not think that Brexit is a good idea, neither back then nor now. You are grasping onto a minority of expert opinions when the majority are saying otherwise. Once again you are guilty of doing the thing that you accuse other people of.

If a majority of experts were on board with brexit then I wouldn't be opposed to it, but people with expertise beyond anyone's here is saying it's going to be a ****show and I'm not arrogant enough to think I know better or disregard the legions of expert minds telling us otherwise.

[Tom4784]

Trump has done nothing to warrant praise, his immature teenage-girl-on-Twitter style of presidency has irritated issues more than helped. NK has come to the table because both Koreas are working the diplomatic process. Trump is just trying to snatch credit because he is an ineffective narcissist.

[bots]

Trump has done nothing to warrant praise, his immature teenage-girl-on-Twitter style of presidency has irritated issues more than helped. NK has come to the table because both Koreas are working the diplomatic process. Trump is just trying to snatch credit because he is an ineffective narcissist.

i agree with this. I would add that I believe China was actually the one that made it happen. NK visited China just before all these developments started to happen, and they have far more influence over NK than the USA will ever have.

[kirklancaster]

You're entitled to your opinion but you're not entitled to make snide comments at me when you'd scream the place down if our positions were reversed.





I made NO 'snide comments' and any perceived by you is in YOUR head.

You are the one who is continually attempting to introduce 'personal' issues into this debate/discussion.

[Tom4784]

:laugh: Oh dear. You write with such AUTHORITY on the EU and Brexit, Dezzy, but in reality, WHAT you write shows an alarming LACK of any REAL knowledge of both - In my opinion.

"It's going to have a negative impact..."

Are you now TIBB's own Psychic, Dezzy? Tibb’s very own Nostradamus or Edgar Cayce?

You speak so DEFINITIVELY of future events that you MUST think that you are. No one KNOWS the future and cloaking your PERSONAL opinion as fact lends it no more legitimacy than any other person's opinion.

"...and placing blame on an imaginary Illuminati is not going to change that (that line honestly feels like you preparing an excuse for when Brexit leaves us in a worse position then we were in) "


This is bordering on dishonesty and mockery.

I clearly qualified my use of the word 'Illuminati' by stating "for want of a better word".

It was a ‘convenience’, an ‘Umbrella’ term for the purpose of BREVITY, to save me having to write lists of the actual Super-Wealthy and Super-Powerful factions who do MOST CERTAINLY have deeply vested interests in ensuring that the UK Remains in the EU, and NONE of these ‘vested interests’ includes the well-being of the ‘Working Classes’ or ‘Poor’, or indeed anyone OUTSIDE of THEIR own ranks and aims.

I have no intention of writing 100 pages to defend myself against your mocking retort – and that number of pages would scarcely be sufficient anyway to FULLY expound why I am right and your response is wrong – but briefly:

The Rich and Powerful & EU Vested Interests Part One:

The House of Lords, EU Pensioners & Traitor Blair

The Lords is heavily riddled with Pro-EU traitors to this country - 374 of whom were STRATEGICALLY placed there by Pro-EU arch-Traitor Tony Blair during 1997 to 2007.

The first of the Lord’s two recent defeats of the Government’s Article 50 Bill was ORGANISED by Blair and his ‘Pet-Peer’ Lord Adonis abetted by Peers who were former EU Commissioners.

The EU pays over £500,00 in PENSIONS per year to former EU Officials who now sit in the Lords and this includes seven ex-EU Commissioners such as Blair’s bedfellow ‘Mr IFFY’ Peter Mandelson.

EU officials have to swear a permanent ‘Oath of Allegiance’ to Brussels and their Golden Pensions and other Lifetime ‘Bonuses’ can be withdrawn if those ex- Officials ever fail to ‘ACT IN THE EU’s INTERESTS’, but ‘Lo and Behold’ unlike ANY other situations where Peers may have a ‘Conflict of Interest’ when voting, it has been decreed that these EU Loyalists do NOT have to declare their EU Incomes or any 'Conflict of Interest' when voting.

Incidentally, these Peers 'Golden Pensions' is BRITISH TAX-PAYERS MONEY despite it being paid out by Brussels.

And just LOOK at some of the RATS who have vested in interests in scuppering Brexit and keeping the UK in the EU – whether OFFICIALLY or otherwise by rendering Brexit so ineffective that the ‘status quo’ changes in NAME only.

Lord Kinnock – ex-vice-president of the Commission

(The 'Welsh Windbag' a former British Labour Prime Minister receives a £87,000-a-year EU pension. Not bad UNEARNED income when a HUGE portion of the working classes he represented struggle by on around £15,000 per year for WORKING.)

Lord Patten - ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Tugendhat – ex-EU Commissioner.
Lord Mandelson i- ex EU Commissioner.
Baroness Ashton.
Lord Clinton-Davis.
Lord Tugendhat
Lord Richard.
Etc. Etc.

HOW can these RATS SERVE TWO MASTERS?

They CANNOT, and their FIRST allegiance is NOT to the Best Interests of the UK and its people, it is to their Brussels Paymasters and PROTECTING their FAT, TAX-FREE Golden EU LIFETIME Payouts - not forgetting their many EU-based, very lucrative BUSINESS interests which will become endangered and much less lucrative should the UK REALLY Brexit.

The 'Illuminati' may well be a fiction but the above RICH and POWERFUL are REAL and they DO HAVE A VESTED INTEREST IN SCUPPERING BREXIT.

They are also in a STRATEGIC position to do so, and ARE doing just that.

Next - George Soros, The Open Society Foundation, & Gina Miller

If I said those red parts to you or your friends, they would have been presented as me baiting you and the 358382857th Anti-Dezzy thread would have been made.

I must say though, looking briefly at your post, I saw the term 'Pro-EU traitors'......how very diplomatic, anyone that doesn't share your views on brexit is a traitor? You tried to twist my opinion by making out that I was saying it was a fact (when it should be obvious to everyone that is wasn't) but here you are bandying the word traitor about because someone is pro-eu thus trying to deny opinions you dislike.

[Brillopad]

If I said those red parts to you or your friends, they would have been presented as me baiting you and the 358382857th Anti-Dezzy thread would have been made.

I must say though, looking briefly at your post, I saw the term 'Pro-EU traitors'......how very diplomatic, anyone that doesn't share your views on brexit is a traitor? You tried to twist my opinion by making out that I was saying it was a fact (when it should be obvious to everyone that is wasn't) but here you are bandying the word traitor about because someone is pro-eu thus trying to deny opinions you dislike.

It seems blatantly obvious to me that Kirk was not suggesting ANYONE that doesn’t agree with his views on Brexit - a very convenient distortion of the sentiment expressed, and you talk of twisting - is an EU traitor, but an informed account of why many of those voting against Brexit in the Lords have no right doing so as they clearly have a vested personal interest in voting against Brexit that has nothing to do with the best interests of the country or the vast majority of the people in it!

It is without doubt a conflict of interests and should not be allowed - it makes a total joke of the whole downright corrupt nature of the system! Remainers would be screaming blue murder if the boot was on the other foot!

[kirklancaster]

If I said those red parts to you or your friends, they would have been presented as me baiting you and the 358382857th Anti-Dezzy thread would have been made.

I must say though, looking briefly at your post, I saw the term 'Pro-EU traitors'......how very diplomatic, anyone that doesn't share your views on brexit is a traitor? You tried to twist my opinion by making out that I was saying it was a fact (when it should be obvious to everyone that is wasn't) but here you are bandying the word traitor about because someone is pro-eu thus trying to deny opinions you dislike.

What my 'friends' would do is of no relevance here.

I have NEVER accused you of baiting me, have I?

Again, you UNFAIRLY put me in a position where I CANNOT respond to you without dragging up the past - something I did not want to do.

However, seeing as how it is you who are doing just that;

I objected to the times you used your Mod Status to unjustly remove my response posts to you because you had no answer to the points put forward in them.

I objected to the needless abusive aggression you often used in your responses to my posts.

There - now THAT is out of the way;

he text which you have reproduced in red are NOT 'snide comments' they are legitimate comments based solely on what you wrote in the relevant posts.

I used the term 'Pro-EU Traitors' because in the context of what they are and what they are doing THAT is EXACTLY what they are.

I have NEVER used the term 'Traitor' in respect of any 'Remainer' on here - no matter how extremely fanatical they may be because they have a RIGHT to support remaining in the EU if they want to.

PEERS in the House of Lords who receive BRITISH TAX-PAYERS money of £300 per day (often for just turning up to sleep) are another matter altogether because they ARE 'EU-Traitors'.


Instead of voting on a motion for the BEST interests of the UK and its people based on rigorous analysis and contemplation the issues concerning that motion, these bastards have only TWO considerations;

1) Their duty to adhere to the OATH OF LOYALTY which they swore to their EU PAYMASTERS

2) Protecting their personal incomes from those EU Paymasters.

THEY ARE PRO-EU TRAITORS.

[kirklancaster]

It seems blatantly obvious to me that Kirk was not suggesting ANYONE that doesn’t agree with his views on Brexit - a very convenient distortion of the sentiment expressed, and you talk of twisting - is an EU traitor, but an informed account of why many of those voting against Brexit in the Lords have no right doing so as they clearly have a vested personal interest in voting against Brexit that has nothing to do with the best interests of the country or the vast majority of the people in it!

It is without doubt a conflict of interests and should not be allowed - it makes a total joke of the whole downright corrupt nature of the system! Remainers would be screaming blue murder if if the boot was on the other foot!

Thank you Brillo.