The Irish abortion referendum.

[Beso]

Am i right in saying they are voting to be able to abort as far as 6 months into the pregnancy?

[AnnieK]

Am i right in saying they are voting to be able to abort as far as 6 months into the pregnancy?

I don't know much about it but the UK law.is up to 24 weeks which is pretty much 6 months (if you work on 4 week months). I have read they are campaigning for unrestricted access up to 12 weeks in some reports and 22 weeks in others.

[Beso]

I don't know much about it but the UK law.is up to 24 weeks which is pretty much 6 months (if you work on 4 week months). I have read they are campaigning for unrestricted access up to 12 weeks in some reports and 22 weeks in others.


Is the uk law really that..my goodness..

Im shocked at that and very upset.

[AnnieK]

Is the uk law really that..my goodness..

Im shocked at that and very upset.

Its usually only allowed for medical reasons at that point but that is the legal time limit. Most UK abortions happen before 12 weeks for non medical reasons.

[Beso]

Its usually only allowed for medical reasons at that point but that is the legal time limit. Most UK abortions happen before 12 weeks for non medical reasons.

Yes the 12 weeks was my understanding..

Yes i can see it being acceptable if the mothers health/life was in danger...it must be heartrenching.


So 6 months is ONLY allowed atm for medical reasons but they are voting to allow people to just give up for nothing?

[Smithy]

6 months is allowed for any reason not just medical reasons, just the majority of 24 week abortions occur due to medical reasons

[Beso]

6 months is allowed for any reason not just medical reasons, just the majority of 24 week abortions occur due to medical reasons

In ireland though, whats the state of affairs with this vote?

[The Slim Reaper]

It's a good way of curbing the Irish menace spreading to the mainland.

[Smithy]

In ireland though, whats the state of affairs with this vote?

I imagine they’re bringing it in line with the 21st centruy rest of the UK

[Beso]

I imagine they’re bringing it in line with the 21st centruy rest of the UK

may as well **** that up along with everything else this century.

[Cherie]

I imagine they’re bringing it in line with the 21st centruy rest of the UK

:skull: you do realise Southern Ireland is not part of the UK

[Tom4784]

It's about time, hopefully it goes through.

[Smithy]

:skull: you do realise Southern Ireland is not part of the UK

Yes but generally when people think of the UK they get it confused with GB so would therefore imagine that they would all follow a similar law and not have one part of GB so backwards

Not that that’s even relevant but you drag I guess...

[Cherie]

Yes but generally when people think of the UK they get it confused with GB so would therefore imagine that they would all follow a similar law and not have one part of GB so backwards

Not that that’s even relevant but you drag I guess...

I’d love to be able to say I know what you are talking about :umm2:

[kirklancaster]

I’d love to be able to say I know what you are talking about :umm2:

:laugh:

[Greg!]

:skull: you do realise Southern Ireland is not part of the UK

Not "southern" Ireland.

[Greg!]

Looks like that after this, NI will be the only place in the British Isles where you can't get an abortion. What a disgrace!! So shocking in 2018

[Rob!]

Imagine a policy where woman get the choice of what happens to their bodies. Out-bloody-rageous.

[Greg!]

Just to be clear I am pro-choice! Think I worded my post badly

[Marsh.]

Looks like that after this, NI will be the only place in the British Isles where you can't get an abortion. What a disgrace!! So shocking in 2018

https://media0.giphy.com/media/Ki9ZNTNS7aC9q/giphy.gif

[Underscore]

I hope the referendum passes. It's shocking in 2018 that you still can't get an abortion in Ireland.

[Cherie]

Not "southern" Ireland.

What would you call it?

[Cherie]

Looks like that after this, NI will be the only place in the British Isles where you can't get an abortion. What a disgrace!! So shocking in 2018

Maybe Smithy can campaign to bring it in line with with the rest of the UK

[bots]

Yes but generally when people think of the UK they get it confused with GB so would therefore imagine that they would all follow a similar law and not have one part of GB so backwards

Not that that’s even relevant but you drag I guess...

The Irish Republic is not part of the UK or GB .... The UK includes Northern Ireland, GB doesn't

[Beso]

6 months though...thats murder in my eyes.

[AnnieK]

6 months though...thats murder in my eyes.

Considering medical advances have come on so much that babies can survive at 24 weeks regularly now, I agree it is very late. The medical profession don't class a foetus as viable before 24 weeks and rarely will intervene to try and save it should a mother go into premature labour before 24 weeks, even though some babies would survive. 24 weeks + is the viable point that a baby born early can survive in the eyes of the medics.

[bots]

I do think that the latest date of termination should be constantly revised in line with medical advancements. I know of 2 babies that were born > 2 months premature over 20 years ago. Both survived and went on to become perfectly healthy young adults. Things have progressed a long way since then, so I do wonder about these limits.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Imagine a policy where woman get the choice of what happens to their bodies. Out-bloody-rageous.

I just wish they would chose not to get pregnant when they dont want to keep it?

[Smithy]

I’d love to be able to say I know what you are talking about :umm2:
Must be your age
The Irish Republic is not part of the UK or GB .... The UK includes Northern Ireland, GB doesn't
Well THE BRITISH ISLES THEN, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT
6 months though...thats murder in my eyes.

Don’t get a 6 month abortion then

[Beso]

Must be your age

Well THE BRITISH ISLES THEN, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT


Don’t get a 6 month abortion then

I know its early...but.

[Nicky91]

6 months though...thats murder in my eyes.

nah it ain't murder :shrug: to me it is only alive when it is born

[kirklancaster]

My beautiful little granddaughter was born prematurely at just 26 weeks and she is now the most adorable, mischievous, PERFECT 2 1/2-year-old.

I watch her playing and giggling and laughing with that sheer joy of being alive which all innocent children have, and I am FORCED to agree with Annie, BOTS and Parmy that the laws need URGENT revision.

[kirklancaster]

nah it ain't murder :shrug: to me it is only alive when it is born

Utter rubbish, Nicky.

[Nicky91]

Utter rubbish, Nicky.

i can have my own opinion on this :fist:

[Crimson Dynamo]

nah it ain't murder :shrug: to me it is only alive when it is born

what about the day before its born?

[kirklancaster]

i can have my own opinion on this :fist:

There is a reason why I put the below at the foot of all my posts:

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts". Daniel Patrick Moynihan (1927-2003)
.................................................. ..

[Nicky91]

what about the day before its born?

yes then it is nearly alive, so then abortion would be a no-no for me

[kirklancaster]

what about the day before its born?

Exactly.

[Greg!]

What would you call it?

Ireland? or the Republic of Ireland. I.e. what it is actually called :p

[Nicky91]

Ireland? or the Republic of Ireland. I.e. what it is actually called :p

i call it Republic of Ireland :)

[thesheriff443]

Dr smithy on the case this morning.

[Nicky91]

Dr smithy on the case this morning.

give life sentences in jail to those who commit murder through abortions :fist: :fist:

[thesheriff443]

give life sentences in jail to those who commit murder through abortions :fist: :fist:

You need to take a serious look at yourself!, you are an utter flip flop.

[Nicky91]

You need to take a serious look at yourself!, you are an utter flip flop.

:joker: :joker:

[Crimson Dynamo]

nah it ain't murder :shrug: to me it is only alive when it is born

give life sentences in jail to those who commit murder through abortions :fist: :fist:

hardly a laughing matter, you are 26 not 12

:umm2:

[Nicky91]

hardly a laughing matter, you are 26 not 12

:umm2:

i was wrong what i first said, i am only human

[Kazanne]

I am really hating the thought that babies are aborted at 6 MTHS ,my friend had a premature baby ,he was so tiny,no one expected him to live,but against all odds he made it ,he was born before 24 weeks,this happy thriving boy would be dead had she had gone for abortion,it doesn't bear thinking about,he does have a few medical problems but nothing life threatening,I also understand that some circumstances call for it ,but in all honesty it doesn't sit good with me,especially when some people use it as a form of contraception,I saw a disturbing video of an early abortion and the so called lifeless foetus was moving !!! so that really hammered abortion home for me.It would be much better if people actually cared enough to use contraception and stop being so selfish.

[Crimson Dynamo]

i was wrong what i first said, i am only human

and so a re the babies that your flippant remarks are about

[Niamh.]

Am i right in saying they are voting to be able to abort as far as 6 months into the pregnancy?

No.

It's 12 weeks unrestricted unless there is some medical issue

[Niamh.]

In ireland though, whats the state of affairs with this vote?

Opinion Polls have the Yes vote in favour but there's a big enough number of undecideds to swing it either way

[Niamh.]

I imagine they’re bringing it in line with the 21st centruy rest of the UK

You know we're not part of the UK though, Yes? :idc:

[Niamh.]

I am really hating the thought that babies are aborted at 6 MTHS ,my friend had a premature baby ,he was so tiny,no one expected him to live,but against all odds he made it ,he was born before 24 weeks,this happy thriving boy would be dead had she had gone for abortion,it doesn't bear thinking about,he does have a few medical problems but nothing life threatening,I also understand that some circumstances call for it ,but in all honesty it doesn't sit good with me,especially when some people use it as a form of contraception,I saw a disturbing video of an early abortion and the so called lifeless foetus was moving !!! so that really hammered abortion home for me.It would be much better if people actually cared enough to use contraception and stop being so selfish.

With all due respect Kaz, that is not what's being proposed. It's 12 weeks, I wish people would stop causing confusion over something this important. Womens healthcare has been effected by restricting Doctors and what treatment they can give to pregnant women.

[Nicky91]

look i know what i first said, but i was wrong

i first thought that a human being is only alive from the moment it is born

[Niamh.]

Our Taoiseach Leo's views :love:

https://www.facebook.com/campaignforleo/videos/1777397985631828/?hc_ref=ART3Hy0McYzi4VQ9erdD3EMTRtkxfSjzXPXRl59vLe vkrh65jGvwEIIlkCqHOXol7bI

[Beso]

nah it ain't murder :shrug: to me it is only alive when it is born

Yes, because the vagina jump starts the heart on the way past....like a car wash with a difibulator fitted

[Crimson Dynamo]

Our Taoiseach Leo's views :love:

https://www.facebook.com/campaignforleo/videos/1777397985631828/?hc_ref=ART3Hy0McYzi4VQ9erdD3EMTRtkxfSjzXPXRl59vLe vkrh65jGvwEIIlkCqHOXol7bI

does he dye his hair?

:suspect:

[Niamh.]

does he dye his hair?

:suspect:

Don't be jealous of Leo's luscious locks LT :hee:

[Cherie]

Must be your age

Well THE BRITISH ISLES THEN, YOU KNOW WHAT I MEANT


Don’t get a 6 month abortion then

:skull: get your geography book out

[Cherie]

You know we're not part of the UK though, Yes? :idc:

No he doesn't, it's pretty incredible really

[Cherie]

Ireland? or the Republic of Ireland. I.e. what it is actually called :p

You must have heard of the North and South :laugh:

[Niamh.]

No he doesn't, it's pretty incredible really

I actually had to read his post multiple times to make sure I hadn't read it wrong :nono:

[Crimson Dynamo]

This is the problems with Eireland

Too many names (the old too many letters thing again)

Ireland isnt anything as it split into 2 countries, a north bit and a south bit but wait, the south bit isnt in the UK even tho its all the same island, this part now is called Eire and its in Europe. Also there is a Republic of Ireland which is Eire but isnt Northern Ireland. They have one rugby team but two footbvall teams and in the Soth of Eire they speak gaelic whilst in the North they speak English. The south of Eireland dont obery Thersa May they follow a wee chap with dyed hair called a Tea Shock. Will it would be tea and a shock if this bloody mess every got sorted out

shocking shambles


:oh:

No wonder SMithy, himself a French, thinks South Republic Eire should be in the United KIngdom of Britain

[Niamh.]

I'm atleast impressed that you got the phonetics right with Taoiseach LT :laugh:

[Cherie]

for the purposes of TiBB

he should be known as the Tea SHOOK

[Crimson Dynamo]

aaasjhbscbcjhndj

[Niamh.]

for the purposes of TiBB

he should be known as the Tea SHOOK

:laugh2:

[Beso]

I hope the referendum passes. It's shocking in 2018 that you still can't get an abortion in Ireland.

What is shocking is in 2018 you can still legally kill a baby.

[AnnieK]

What is shocking is in 2018 you can still legally kill a baby.

Are you against abortion in it's entirety then Parm? Or just so late?

[Beso]

Are you against abortion in it's entirety then Parm? Or just so late?

The lateness..6 months really shocked me.

But the idea of abortion for anything other than health/rape reasons disgusts me.

[Brillopad]

What is shocking is in 2018 you can still legally kill a baby.

Sorry Parmy - but it is shocking that anyone still thinks they can control what a woman can or can’t do with her own body. I can’t imagine anyone is exactly comfortable with the idea of abortion but at the end of the day it is the woman’s body and her life that will be affected and therefore has to be her choice.

[kirklancaster]

for the purposes of TiBB

he should be known as the Tea SHOOK

:laugh2:

[Beso]

Sorry Parmy - but it is shocking that anyone still thinks they can control what a woman can or can’t do with her own body. I can’t imagine anyone is exactly comfortable with the idea of abortion but at the end of the day it is the woman’s body and her life that will be affected and therefore has to be her choice.

No need to apologise..

.pity the baby doesnt get a choice what it does with its body as well though...and sorry, but with all the contraception available these days unwanted pregnancies shouldnt be an issue...


if you are going to end up killing the unborn babies life if you get pregnant...then make sure you dont get pregnant.

[Brillopad]

No need to apologise..

.pity the baby doesnt get a choice what it does with its body as well though...and sorry, but with all the contraception available these days unwanted pregnancies shouldnt be an issue...


if you are going to end up killing the unborn babies life if you get pregnant...then make sure you dont get pregnant.

Even the pill isn’t 100% - so the only sure fire way is abstinence - but that applies to the men as well of course.

[Ammi]

The lateness..6 months really shocked me.

But the idea of abortion for anything other than health/rape reasons disgusts me.

...I guess Parmy that ‘health reasons’ is such a broad thing as well, is the thing...because it can be emotional health as well as physical health...and for some females, they might not feel emotionally healthy in their circumstances to continue a pregnancy..I guess we have to look at things like child abuse from parents as well, when we think about that...and yeah, I realise there are options of adoption in continuing a pregnancy, rather than terminating it...but there again..(...for whatever reason..)...a female may not feel emotionally healthy enough for everything involved with that either...

[Beso]

Thats all good and well, but the child is still being seen as an unwanted toy in my opinion...what if that same person just went on to repeat the cycle...something like 1 in 3 people who had an abortion in scotland went in to either have another abortion or had already had one..
I find that hard to swallow.

[Beso]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.sphsu.mrc.ac.uk/research-briefings/WMEA%2520Feedback%2520Flyer.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwj6v6X6pZvbAhXMCsAKHXXUD6oQFgg-MAU&usg=AOvVaw2fnuSS-dsUWJgVYcB77yLQ

[AnnieK]

The problem is if abortion were outlawed, it would still happen. There would be back street abortions again by unqualified "physicians" leadinh to far more deaths and if performed at a later stage, undue suffering to foetus'.

[Beso]

So again we bow down to the criminals of society.

[Nicky91]

So again we bow down to the criminals of society.

i will never bow to criminals :hmph:

[Niamh.]

So again we bow down to the criminals of society.

wow women are criminals now for having abortions bloody hell.

[Beso]

wow women are criminals now for having abortions bloody hell.

Not sure how you read that into what i posted...it clearly meant the backstreet abortionists.

[Niamh.]

Not sure how you read that into what i posted...it clearly meant the backstreet abortionists.

Oh my apologies then for misunderstanding your post. It's very tense over here at the moment to do with the subject as the referendum is so close. It's a very emotive topic, I can't wait till it's over tbh, I was hoping that no one would post a thread on here about it actually, it was the one place that was referendum free

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why do women have abortions?

Most respondents to a survey of abortion patients in 1987 said that more than one factor had contributed to their decision to have an abortion; the mean number of reasons was nearly four. Three-quarters said that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities, about two-thirds said they could not afford to have a child and half said they did not want to be a single parent or had relationship problems. A multivariate analysis showed young teenagers to be 32 percent more likely than women 18 or over to say they were not mature enough to raise a child and 19 percent more likely to say their parents wanted them to have an abortion. Unmarried women were 17 percent more likely than currently married women to choose abortion to prevent others from knowing they had had sex or became pregnant. Of women who had an abortion at 16 or more weeks' gestation, 71 percent attributed their delay to not having realized they were pregnant or not having known soon enough the actual gestation of their pregnancy. Almost half were delayed because of trouble in arranging the abortion, usually because they needed time to raise money. One-third did not have an abortion earlier because they were afraid to tell their partner or parents that they were pregnant. A multivariate analysis revealed that respondents under age 18 were 39 percent more likely than older women to have delayed because they were afraid to tell their parents or partner.

Its an old USA study but none the less..

Fam Plann Perspect. 1988 Jul-Aug;20(4):169-76. - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3243347

[Niamh.]

it's 12 weeks unrestricted being proposed in our Referendum which is what the thread is about, just want to prevent some confusion on the issue LT which posts like yours are doing.

[kirklancaster]

it's 12 weeks unrestricted being proposed in our Referendum which is what the thread is about, just want to prevent some confusion on the issue LT which posts like yours are doing.

I was under the impression that it was 26 weeks until I read your post and there is a gulf of difference between 12 and 26 weeks.

[Niamh.]

I was under the impression that it was 26 weeks until I read your post and there is a gulf of difference between 12 and 26 weeks.

It's 12 weeks unrestricted, and later for medical reasons/if the mothers life is in danger etc. There's alot of misinformation being put about, dirty tactics

[kirklancaster]

It's 12 weeks unrestricted, and later for medical reasons/if the mothers life is in danger etc. There's alot of misinformation being put about, dirty tactics

I agree about the 'Dirty Tactics', Niamh. I also agree that 'Medical' reasons justify later termination but there are a lot of cases where abortion is definitely used by promiscuous careless women as a 'Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free' card and it is these cases that need greater scrutiny. .

[Niamh.]

I agree about the 'Dirty Tactics', Niamh. I also agree that 'Medical' reasons justify later termination.

I think it's a good proposal as well

[Crimson Dynamo]

what are the main arguments against?

religion?

[Niamh.]

what are the main arguments against?

religion?

Some come from religion I'd imagine, although I haven't actually heard anyone say "I'm voting No because of my Religion" if you get what I mean. Like I know one person in particular who is voting No and I know they're not religious.

[Tom4784]

The lateness..6 months really shocked me.

But the idea of abortion for anything other than health/rape reasons disgusts me.

You can't have late term abortions unless it's for medical reasons.

Unless science develops a way for men to carry babies to term, I don't think it's our place to oppose abortion. It's a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body.

[Tom4784]

If men did have to go through pregnancy though, abortion would have been legal everywhere as soon as it became a thing :laugh:

[Niamh.]

You can't have late term abortions unless it's for medical reasons.

Unless science develops a way for men to carry babies to term, I don't think it's our place to oppose abortion. It's a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body.

Thank you. It's funny though, my father is a No supporter (eventhough he's on holiday so can't vote anyway :hee: ) He also left my mother to pretty much be a single parent to us 4 kids (eventhough they were married), so Pro Birth but who cares what happens after, someone else will look after them. Luckily though his attitudes haven't rubbed off on my 3 brothers who are all voting Yes and support the women in their lives :love:

[Tom4784]

Thank you. It's funny though, my father is a No supporter (eventhough he's on holiday so can't vote anyway :hee: ) He also left my mother to pretty much be a single parent to us 4 kids (eventhough they were married), so Pro Birth but who cares what happens after, someone else will look after them. Luckily though his attitudes haven't rubbed off on my 3 brothers who are all voting Yes and support the women in their lives :love:

It's an all too common attitude with a lot of pro-lifers, they place so much value on the pregnancy but nary a thought on what comes after.

[Cherie]

My problem with abortion is for those who use it as a form of contraception, other than that for up to 12 weeks fine, anything after that other than for medical reasons is very iffy

[Niamh.]

It's an all too common attitude with a lot of pro-lifers, they place so much value on the pregnancy but nary a thought on what comes after.

Indeed. Alot of whom are first in line to complain about single mothers making
future criminals and taking money to raise those kids from the state funnily enough

[Cherie]

Also the rate of abortions required should be going down given the ready availability of free contraception and the morning after pill, which I know isn't free but costs a hell of a lot less than an abortion, and if you know your cycle you will know when it is needed.

[Niamh.]

My problem with abortion is for those who use it as a form of contraception, other than that for up to 12 weeks fine, anything after that other than for medical reasons is very iffy

I'm not sure if you've ever known anyone who's had an abortion Cherie but I've known a couple, it's not a nice thing to go through mentally or physically. I really don't think that people set out to use it as a form of contraception or if they do are very common at all. But I do agree that the proposed terms they've set out seem pretty reasonable

[Crimson Dynamo]

I thought it a little sensationalist of the t-shock chap to mention rape as the numbers of pregnancies from that mist be microscopic in comparison?

[Niamh.]

Also the rate of abortions required should be going down given the ready availability of free contraception and the morning after pill, which I know isn't free but costs a hell of a lot less than an abortion, and if you know your cycle you will know when it is needed.

Free contraception should definitely be campaigned for imo

[Cherie]

You can't have late term abortions unless it's for medical reasons.

Unless science develops a way for men to carry babies to term, I don't think it's our place to oppose abortion. It's a woman's right to choose what she does with her own body.

I don't really get that argument we want Dads to have more involvement, we want them to quite rightly to look after their kids and help with the costs of raising them, we can't have it every way. No Dad, no kid, no abortion needed.

[Niamh.]

I thought it a little sensationalist of the t-shock chap to mention rape as the numbers of pregnancies from that mist be microscopic in comparison?

Rape is pretty much always mentioned when this subject comes up though, as much from the No side as the Yes

[Cherie]

Free contraception should definitely be campaigned for imo

I would have thought this should have come first? though it makes no difference here to abortion rates

[Smithy]

:skull: get your geography book out

The British Isles are a group of islands off the north-western coast of continental Europe that consist of the islands of Great Britain, Ireland, the Isle of Man and over six thousand smaller isles.

Whatever keeps you off the topic at hand I guess

[Niamh.]

I would have thought this should have come first? though it makes no difference here to abortion rates

Well not really because the push for this referendum came about because of medical treatment to pregnant women being affected by the 8th amendment, cases where the pregnancies were actually planned/wanted so contraception wasn't an issue. The biggest case of this and campaigning for the referendum was the Savita Halappanavar case

http://www.thejournal.ie/doctors-savita-halappanavar-4027207-May2018/

[Tom4784]

[/B]

I don't really get that argument we want Dads to have more involvement, we want them to quite rightly to look after their kids and help with the costs of raising them, we can't have it every way. No Dad, no kid, no abortion needed.

I think Dads should have an opinion in some circumstances (if there's a good relationship there, mainly) but ultimately it's the woman's decision. The truth of nature is that a man's role is miniscule when it comes to pregnancy, until the baby's born and they can co-parent, men can't do anything to share the burden of pregnancy.

[Cherie]

Whatever keeps you off the topic at hand I guess

Its very much on topic thank you, also that is incorrect it should state Northern Ireland, the Republic is not a British Isle

[thesheriff443]

I think Dads should have an opinion in some circumstances (if there's a good relationship there, mainly) but ultimately it's the woman's decision. The truth of nature is that a man's role is miniscule when it comes to pregnancy, until the baby's born and they can co-parent, men can't do anything to share the burden of pregnancy.

Lots of women dont see pregnancy as a burden some actually love it, men can and do help women during the pregnancy.

[Smithy]

Sorry Parmy - but it is shocking that anyone still thinks they can control what a woman can or can’t do with her own body. I can’t imagine anyone is exactly comfortable with the idea of abortion but at the end of the day it is the woman’s body and her life that will be affected and therefore has to be her choice.
Hit the nail on the head here Brillo :clap1:
Its very much on topic thank you, also that is incorrect it should state Northern Ireland, the Republic is not a British Isle

Two sovereign states are located on the islands: the Republic of Ireland (which covers roughly five-sixths of the island of Ireland)[8] and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Yikes...maybe take your own advice and crack out the geography books

[Tom4784]

Lots of women dont see pregnancy as a burden some actually love it, men can and do help women during the pregnancy.

Anyone can help a pregnant woman during her pregnancy, doesn't mean that they should have a say in what she does with her own body.

[thesheriff443]

Anyone can help a pregnant woman during her pregnancy, doesn't mean that they should have a say in what she does with her own body.

But that's two separate issues.

[reece(:]

Is this a women only vote?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Is this a women only vote?

i expect not as normally its a man who impregnates them

[Niamh.]

Is this a women only vote?

No unfortunately not as it's a vote regarding removing something from our constitution, same as straight people really shouldn't have had a say on gay marriage either but the definition of marriage had to be changed in our constitution so everyone had a vote on it

[Cherie]

Hit the nail on the head here Brillo :clap1:




Yikes...maybe take your own advice and crack out the geography books

Politically which was your original point Southern Ireland is not part of the British Isles, so we don't have to be in line with anything :hee:

[Niamh.]

Politically which was your original point Southern Ireland is not part of the British Isles, so we don't have to be in line with anything :hee:

:clap1:

[bots]

The term British Isles is completely meaningless and is not a legal entity

[Nicky91]

abortion feels wrong in any way, if these women didn't want children, why not ask their man to wear a condom in the first place :hehe:


bringing children into this world, must only happen on Mutual agreement between both the man and the woman

[Beso]

it's 12 weeks unrestricted being proposed in our Referendum which is what the thread is about, just want to prevent some confusion on the issue LT which posts like yours are doing.

Thanks niamh...12 weeks isnt as bad in my opinion.

[Niamh.]

Thanks niamh...12 weeks isnt as bad in my opinion.

Yeah I agree, except in medical cases obviously

[Brillopad]

abortion feels wrong in any way, if these women didn't want children, why not ask their man to wear a condom in the first place :hehe:


bringing children into this world, must only happen on Mutual agreement between both the man and the woman

THat’s not very realistic Nicky. Besides any man that doesn’t want children should wear one automatically, not wait to be asked - responsibility falls on everyone to protect themselves from parenthood.

[Shaun]

Madness that this still needs debating...

[Underscore]

Is this a women only vote?

One could only wish

Madness that this still needs debating...

100%

[Underscore]

Sorry Parmy - but it is shocking that anyone still thinks they can control what a woman can or can’t do with her own body. I can’t imagine anyone is exactly comfortable with the idea of abortion but at the end of the day it is the woman’s body and her life that will be affected and therefore has to be her choice.

Nail meet head :clap1:

[arista]

The vote is going to go
to the Undecided
as its a close vote.


Even SkyNewsHD Kay Burley is there today.

The result should be on Saturday

[Northern Monkey]

Is the uk law really that..my goodness..

Im shocked at that and very upset.

It is awful.Anyone who’s been to even the 12 week scans knows that your baby’s not just a collection of cells by then and at the 21 week scan they look like a fully formed little person.
It should be limited to before 12 imo.

[Niamh.]

It is awful.Anyone who’s been to even the 12 week scans knows that your baby’s not just a collection of cells by then and at the 21 week scan they look like a fully formed little person.
It should be limited to before 12 imo.

Before 12 weeks isn't enough time imo and 12 weeks gives the person enough time to first of all find out they're pregnant and secondly a little time to process that and give their decision the thought time it deserves. 12 weeks is when an embryo becomes a fetus so that's probably why there's that cut off point being proposed. Also, I've had 12 week scans and it really doesn't look like a baby at that stage, it looks like a bean

[Beso]

So a married couple find out the kid they have been trying for is now concieved....they split 11 weeks down the line...the wife can then abort without consulting her estranged hubby?

[Brillopad]

So a married couple find out the kid they have been trying for is now concieved....they split 11 weeks down the line...the wife can then abort without consulting her estranged hubby?

She can consult him - but for obvious reasons she has to make the final decision.

[Northern Monkey]

Before 12 weeks isn't enough time imo and 12 weeks gives the person enough time to first of all find out they're pregnant and secondly a little time to process that and give their decision the thought time it deserves. 12 weeks is when an embryo becomes a fetus so that's probably why there's that cut off point being proposed. Also, I've had 12 week scans and it really doesn't look like a baby at that stage, it looks like a bean

Well my two didn’t look like beans :laugh:
They had heads and bodies and you could see their bones.

I think later than 12 weeks for rape or medical complications should obviously be allowed.

I also know of somebody who had five abortions before deciding to keep number six.I would put a limit on the amount too so they can’t be used as contraception.

[Northern Monkey]

So a married couple find out the kid they have been trying for is now concieved....they split 11 weeks down the line...the wife can then abort without consulting her estranged hubby?

Or in some cases they concieve unintentionally and the woman decides to keep it but the man says he isn’t ready to have kids then she has it and stings him for thousands of £’s over 18 years.
Or the man might want the kid but she just terminates it without considering what the father wants.

Basically he has no rights to his kid.

[Cherie]

Or in some cases they concieve unintentionally and the woman decides to keep it but the man says he isn’t ready to have kids then she has it and stings him for thousands of £’s over 18 years.
Or the man might want the kid but she just terminates it without considering what the father wants.

Basically he has no rights to his kid.

My body my choice but want your cash input, it is not a black and white issue in those cases

[Cherie]

Well my two didn’t look like beans :laugh:
They had heads and bodies and you could see their bones.

I think later than 12 weeks for rape or medical complications should obviously be allowed.

I also know of somebody who had five abortions before deciding to keep number six.I would put a limit on the amount too so they can’t be used as contraception.

Awful, when my sister was doing her nursing training and she was only in the midwifery dept for 3 months she said it was an every day occurrence

[Beso]

She can consult him - but for obvious reasons she has to make the final decision.

But she can also NOT consult him..she might be so pissed at him that she goes and murders his unborn baby to spite him.

[Smithy]

Politically which was your original point Southern Ireland is not part of the British Isles, so we don't have to be in line with anything :hee:

Maybe I should have just put first world countries like I initially planned to, my mistake :hee:

[Cherie]

Maybe I should have just put first world countries like I initially planned to, my mistake :hee:

I expect Niamh is preparing the case for a lengthy ban

[Tom4784]

But she can also NOT consult him..she might be so pissed at him that she goes and murders his unborn baby to spite him.

You can't rely on hyper specific hypotheticals with liberal use of overtly emotional language to make a point against abortion because that hypothetical isn't universal.

It's a woman's body at the end of the day, it's her choice.

[Brillopad]

But she can also NOT consult him..she might be so pissed at him that she goes and murders his unborn baby to spite him.

I find it hard to believe a woman who had planned a baby would abort it out of spite. She would more than likely make such a decision out of panic about coping on her own.

[Greg!]

Politically which was your original point Southern Ireland is not part of the British Isles, so we don't have to be in line with anything :hee:

It is part of the British Isles though nnn

[kirklancaster]

Maybe I should have just put first world countries like I initially planned to, my mistake :hee:

:joker: RUN Smithy RUN. :dog:

[Cherie]

It is part of the British Isles though nnn

Not in my world :hee:

[Beso]

I find it hard to believe a woman who had planned a baby would abort it out of spite. She would more than likely make such a decision out of panic about coping on her own.

You believe that even after that mad cow with the acid attack.:shrug::conf:

[Northern Monkey]

:joker: RUN Smithy RUN. :dog:

Is that the dog from the movie after he got his balls fondled by a dog lover?

[Beso]

You can't rely on hyper specific hypotheticals with liberal use of overtly emotional language to make a point against abortion because that hypothetical isn't universal.

It's a woman's body at the end of the day, it's her choice.

Ok...how about so pissed at him she hurls acid all over him as he sleeps resulting in a slow painfull death...is that more believable.:shrug:

[Tom4784]

Ok...how about so pissed at him she hurls acid all over him as he sleeps resulting in a slow painfull death...is that more believable.:shrug:

Throwing another ultra specific hypothetical (one which has nothing to do with the subject at hand) does not make your original point any less flawed.

[arista]

Dublin Live Debate Ch4HD News now

[AnnieK]

I am very much Pro Choice and believe that as women we do have more rights to choose what happens to our bodies BUT I do believe that men deserve a voice in debates such as this. Contraception should definitely be both parties responsibility if they do not want sex to result in a pregnancy.

[arista]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TGF9jBSr3c

The debate carries on.
ch4news

[Brillopad]

You believe that even after that mad cow with the acid attack.:shrug::conf:

It’s not the same - that woman is a psycho.

[Tom4784]

I am very much Pro Choice and believe that as women we do have more rights to choose what happens to our bodies BUT I do believe that men deserve a voice in debates such as this. Contraception should definitely be both parties responsibility if they do not want sex to result in a pregnancy.

I just believe that we are too far removed from the pregnancy process to try to dictate what women can do with their bodies. Men are just spectators really, we can offer support but we don't go through the risks or the trials and tribulations of it.

I think contraception is a different issue entirely. As you said it's both party's responsibility to make sure they are safe. I've always thought it was odd when you go to certain places and there'll be a condom machine in the men's room but not the women's. Anyone that's sexually active, regardless of gender should have condoms tbh.

[Niamh.]

It is part of the British Isles though nnnOnly cos you lot named them :idc:

[Niamh.]

You believe that even after that mad cow with the acid attack.:shrug::conf:Tbf if you're comparing this hypothetical woman with that acid attack woman then it's probably best she didn't go through with the pregnancy, don't you think?

[kirklancaster]

I am very much Pro Choice and believe that as women we do have more rights to choose what happens to our bodies BUT I do believe that men deserve a voice in debates such as this. Contraception should definitely be both parties responsibility if they do not want sex to result in a pregnancy.

:clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Beso]

It’s not the same - that woman is a psycho.

So is a woman who would abort her kid to spite her man..but she could legally do it.

[Beso]

Tbf if you're comparing this hypothetical woman with that acid attack woman then it's probably best she didn't go through with the pregnancy, don't you think?

The sane father could have brought it up.

[Brillopad]

Tbf if you're comparing this hypothetical woman with that acid attack woman then it's probably best she didn't go through with the pregnancy, don't you think?

Excellent point! Poor child!

[Niamh.]

The sane father could have brought it up.Usually you can't really prove that a person is evil until it's too late

[Niamh.]

Voted :fc:

[Cherie]

Is there an exit poll?

[Niamh.]

Is there an exit poll?

It's going to be on the Late Late Show tonight at around 11:30pm as far as I know

[kirklancaster]

It's going to be on the Late Late Show tonight at around 11:30pm as far as I know

Off Topic, but who hosts that show now, Niamh?

[Niamh.]

Off Topic, but who hosts that show now, Niamh?

Ryan Tubridy, he's brutal. Such a bad interviewer. They haven't had a good host since Gay Byrne left

[Rob!]

I sincerely hope Ireland gets the right result. It's boiled my blood these past few days seeing men argue about the fact that its murder and completely discounting the views of the women its happening to, each one with a entierly different set of circumstances than the last. Honestly, I don't know why men are even being asked their views at all. We have no idea what its like to go through pregnancy.

[kirklancaster]

Ryan Tubridy, he's brutal. Such a bad interviewer. They haven't had a good host since Gay Byrne left

They must have shown it over here in the past because I used to watch it with Gay hosting, but I can't remember which channel it was on.

In fact, I think that is where I first saw Boyzone as very, very, young 'wannabes'. I used to love Gay - a natural.

[Cherie]

I sincerely hope Ireland gets the right result. It's boiled my blood these past few days seeing men argue about the fact that its murder and completely discounting the views of the women its happening to, each one with a entierly different set of circumstances than the last. Honestly, I don't know why men are even being asked their views at all. We have no idea what its like to go through pregnancy.

Many women voting wont know what it like to go through a pregnancy either, I don't think you can exclude men from voting if you want a fair vote.

[Northern Monkey]

here in the past I used Gay hosting,
I used to love Gay

What changed?

:joker:

[Niamh.]

I sincerely hope Ireland gets the right result. It's boiled my blood these past few days seeing men argue about the fact that its murder and completely discounting the views of the women its happening to, each one with a entierly different set of circumstances than the last. Honestly, I don't know why men are even being asked their views at all. We have no idea what its like to go through pregnancy.

Fingers Crossed Rob, I'm so nervous about the result, the number of undecideds is making it very hard to predict. Have you read the "In her Shoes" stories? So heartbreaking

They must have shown it over here in the past because I used to watch it with Gay hosting, but I can't remember which channel it was on.

In fact, I think that is where I first saw Boyzone as very, very, young 'wannabes'. I used to love Gay - a natural.

haha I remember that episode :laugh: Yes Gay was very natural in his interviewing and great at thinking on his feet. Ryan is so wooden and cheesy and can't seem to do anything but ask whatever question is on his list

[kirklancaster]

What changed?

:joker:

Nothing changed I STILL love Gay :laugh:

[Underscore]

I hope with all of my heart Ireland votes 'Yes'. This means so much to so many people. A few minutes ago I saw a tweet with a woman who was starting her induction (childbirth) yet managed to go out and vote Yes.

It is clear this vote means a lot to a lot of people and I sincerely hope it goes our way.

[Cherie]

I hope with all of my heart Ireland votes 'Yes'. This means so much to so many people. A few minutes ago I saw a tweet with a woman who was starting her induction (childbirth) yet managed to go out and vote Yes.

It is clear this vote means a lot to a lot of people and I sincerely hope it goes our way.

well you are a man so according to Rob you should have no input :laugh:


I will be very surprised at anything other than a yes vote

[Underscore]

well you are a man so according to Rob you should have no input :laugh:


I will be very surprised at anything other than a yes vote

Well tbh I do understand where he's coming from - only pregnant women know what goes through their heads, but I do agree that in a democracy everyone should vote and should have their say!

But idk - I think it will be close, and I mean Brexit close.

[Matthew.]

it is important that people vote YES.

[Rob!]

Many women voting wont know what it like to go through a pregnancy either, I don't think you can exclude men from voting if you want a fair vote.

No, but you're talking about a hugely female based issue. It's more to do with women's rights than pregnancy itself.

[Niamh.]

No, but you're talking about a hugely female based issue. It's more to do with women's rights than pregnancy itself.Yep in particular women's rights to proper healthcare

[y.winter]

Good luck for the YES campaign
https://i.imgur.com/Xb4bEfM.jpg

[Northern Monkey]

Yeah maybe only women should get a democratic vote in Ireland

[Niamh.]

Yeah maybe only women should get a democratic vote in IrelandWell men will never be denied the medical treatment they need because they're pregnant. That's a fact.

[Northern Monkey]

Well men will never be denied the medical treatment they need because they're pregnant. That's a fact.

No but their wives,sisters,mothers,girlfriends and unborn children will be affected whichever way it goes.

Nevermind.Silly men,It’s none of their business really.

[Niamh.]

No but their wives,sisters,mothers,girlfriends and unborn children will be affected whichever way it goes.

Nevermind.Silly men,It’s none of their business really.Don't put words in my mouth, thanks. Because I think women should vote on women's issues does not equal siĺly men.

[Northern Monkey]

Don't put words in my mouth, thanks. Because I think women should vote on women's issues does not equal siĺly men.

So you think that ONLY women should vote on “womens issues”?

The problem is that the procreation of life and repopulation of a country isn’t just a women only issue it affects the whole of society even if it’s only women who physically give birth.

[Matthew.]

But idk - I think it will be close, and I mean Brexit close.

i agree - i think it will be quite a close result

[Cherie]

What happens If you are in a stable relationship and you have an unwanted pregnancy, would your partner not have any input into the decision or would you just discuss it with your girlfriends :shrug:

[bots]

The for/against debate is more to do with ethical/religious leanings. Views held by both men and women, so I'm not sure how only allowing women to vote would produce a more definitive result

[Niamh.]

So you think that ONLY women should vote on “womens issues”?

The problem is that the procreation of life and repopulation of a country isn’t just a women only issue it affects the whole of society even if it’s only women who physically give birth.Yes I do think that. Just I like thought straight people shouldn't be deciding whether gay people could get married or not. Population certainly isn't a problem

[Niamh.]

What happens If you are in a stable relationship and you have an unwanted pregnancy, would your partner not have any input into the decision or would you just discuss it with your girlfriends :shrug:No idea how that question is relevent to this vote really. Ultimately the decision would be with the woman as its her body, no matter who she discusses it with?

[Northern Monkey]

Yes I do think that. Just I like thought straight people shouldn't be deciding whether gay people could get married or not. Population certainly isn't a problem

For me that kind of thinking of excluding ‘groups’ from societal decisions harks back to the days when there was no equality and women and ‘lower class’ men weren’t allowed to vote at all.
I don’t believe in grouping off the citizens when it comes to democratic decisions as it’s too easy to exclude certain ‘groups’.
I don’t think a democracy can work if everyone doesn’t have an equal vote.

I also though don’t think the first past the post system works in Britain for elections but that’s a different topic.

[Ramsay]

First time voting today and I voted Yes, felt really good about it! I'm kind of afraid of the silent no voters though :worry:

[Cherie]

No idea how that question is relevent to this vote really. Ultimately the decision would be with the woman as its her body, no matter who she discusses it with?

It’s his baby too

[Niamh.]

First time voting today and I voted Yes, felt really good about it! I'm kind of afraid of the silent no voters though :worry::love: same

[Niamh.]

It’s his baby tooYes but it's her body

[Underscore]

1000120580929216512

[kirklancaster]

1000120580929216512

A larger percentage ratio than the UK EU Brexit Referendum results if that exit poll is anywhere near accurate.

[Rob!]

:fc:

[Tom4784]

It’s his baby too

But the father isn't carrying it.

[arista]

Yes wins it,

[kirklancaster]

Yes wins it,

That's great news, Arista.

[Cherie]

But the father isn't carrying it.

I never knew

[Tom4784]

I never knew

Do you have a point?

[Niamh.]

Brilliant news, hopefully that's accurate

[Cherie]

Do you have a point?

Yes I do

[Shaun]

What happens If you are in a stable relationship and you have an unwanted pregnancy, would your partner not have any input into the decision or would you just discuss it with your girlfriends :shrug:

If it takes two people to create a baby, it should take two people to want to have the baby. Not one, and that goes both ways with a hypothetical "woman wants a baby and then wants child support from the man who didn't want it" sort of situation.

[Cherie]

It's good and bad news, getting rid of a child is never black and white, I don't think abortion should ever by celebrated but something that is done with the utmost sincerity

[Niamh.]

It's good and bad news, getting rid of a child is never black and white, I don't think abortion should ever by celebrated but something that is done with the utmost sincerityNobody is celebrating abortion Cherie.

[GoldHeart]

Nobody is celebrating abortion Cherie.

I doubt anyone could support something so serious & heavy . It's a sensitive issue. And I agree it's not as straight forward , but I always feel for the innocent unborn life .

[Cherie]

Nobody is celebrating abortion Cherie.

Well it’s not great news as described, it’s the right result and I couldn’t see any other outcome really, I hope now it’s followed by free contraception although that hasn’t diminished demand for abortion here :skull:

[Niamh.]

I doubt anyone could support something so serious & heavy . It's a sensitive issue. And I agree it's not as straight forward , but I always feel for the innocent unborn life .If it passes (hoping the exit poll is right) I'll be celebrating the fact pregnant women will now receive proper healthcare and Doctors aren't restricted and can look after these women properly.

[GoldHeart]

If it passes (hoping the exit poll is right) I'll be celebrating the fact pregnant women will now receive proper healthcare and Doctors aren't restricted and can look after these women properly.


Yeah exactly that's the important outcome :clap1: .

[Niamh.]

69% Yes according to RTEs Exit Poll

[Smithy]

Hopefully :cheer:

[Niamh.]

Hopefully :cheer:Both exit polls gave such a similar result I can't see them being wrong, margin of error with these polls is less than 2%

[Cherie]

Both exit polls gave such a similar result I can't see them being wrong, margin of error with these polls is less than 2%

Good job the men got to vote

[Niamh.]

Good job the men got to voteWhy? More women voted yes than men according to the polls

[Cherie]

Why? More women voted yes than men according to the polls

Because if if the percentage is correct then a lot voted yes? And not all females will have voted one way

[Niamh.]

Because if if the percentage is correct then a lot voted yes? And not all females will have voted one wayA higher percentage of women voted yes than men though according to the Polls, I'm confused by your "just aswell men could vote" comment because that came across like Yes wouldn't have won otherwise? Which isn't correct, in fact the Yes win would be higher if only women voted. . .

[Cherie]

A higher percentage of women voted yes than men though according to the Polls, I'm confused by your "just aswell men could vote" comment because that came across like Yes wouldn't have won otherwise? Which isn't correct

I misread the more women than men voted yes bit, thought you said more women voted than men, polls are not always accurate though

[LaLaLand]

I wish I'd had followed all of this in-depth but I've been so busy, what do they think the outcome will be!?

[Cherie]

I wish I'd had followed all of this in-depth but I've been so busy, what do they think the outcome will be!?

A yes vote

[Denver]

If ypou don't want to get pregnant use protection

[Rob!]

It's good and bad news, getting rid of a child is never black and white, I don't think abortion should ever by celebrated but something that is done with the utmost sincerity

I don't think there's a single person anywhere in any country or religion that would say they celebrate the notion of abortion. It's a pretty psychologically difficult thing to do to yourself, especially the further into the pregnancy you go. I'm aware you probably know that, but my point is that the right to choice IS something that should be celebrated. A lot of the arguments for the no vote do not come from a place that should be celebrated either in my view, in fact some of them are god damn cruel and heartless.

[Rob!]

If ypou don't want to get pregnant use protection

Yes, that's precisely the issue here. All of the women who have ever been pregnant in history all had that option in front of them.

[Matthew.]

If you don't want to get pregnant use protection

would you have voted NO then?

[Oliver_W]

I'm reluctantly in favour of abortion being available, though I'd rather it be a last resort. I'd rather see unwanted babies go to families who can't have their own.

[Cherie]

I don't think there's a single person anywhere in any country or religion that would say they celebrate the notion of abortion. It's a pretty psychologically difficult thing to do to yourself, especially the further into the pregnancy you go. I'm aware you probably know that, but my point is that the right to choice IS something that should be celebrated. A lot of the arguments for the no vote do not come from a place that should be celebrated either in my view, in fact some of them are god damn cruel and heartless.

I'm reluctantly in favour of abortion being available, though I'd rather it be a last resort. I'd rather see unwanted babies go to families who can't have their own.

Oliver sums up my feelings on the issue, in the U.K. abortion is abused, hopefully as they probably won’t be free in Ireland this won’t be the case

[Cherie]

also it seems so strange that they closed the polls went home to bed no overnight counting in Ireland :laugh:

[Smithy]

I'm reluctantly in favour of abortion being available, though I'd rather it be a last resort. I'd rather see unwanted babies go to families who can't have their own.

If it were that easy there’d be no children in the foster/adoption system

[Crimson Dynamo]

I just hope we dont see pictures of silly women in the streets whooping and hollering like the won a cup final but i am not holding my breath

[Brillopad]

If it takes two people to create a baby, it should take two people to want to have the baby. Not one, and that goes both ways with a hypothetical "woman wants a baby and then wants child support from the man who didn't want it" sort of situation.

Disagree with this - unless both ‘parents’ took precautions then both are responsible for any consequences. A man is not off the hook if he did nothing to protect himself - and stating ‘she was on the pill or taking care of it’ is not good enough.

[Northern Monkey]

Happy abortion day Ireland :clap1:


I do think it’s the right decision even though if i was Irish i’d like to see things like a limit on amount and number of weeks etc so it can’t be abused like over here.

[Beso]

I just hope we dont see pictures of silly women in the streets whooping and hollering like the won a cup final but i am not holding my breath

Already saw them this morning...i must say i was surprised at the amount of homosexuals standing with them.

[Niamh.]

If ypou don't want to get pregnant use protectionThanks for that insight Adam [emoji106]

[y.winter]

Good luck for the YES campaign
https://i.imgur.com/Xb4bEfM.jpg

Laura did it

[bots]

The state shouldn't be about restricting personal choice and freedom over what people can and cannot do with their own bodies. Enough scientific research has been done to define perfectly appropriate limits. These should clearly be the measures that any sensible democracy would set in place. If breakthroughs are made making the survival rates better, then limits should be adjusted accordingly. Power to the people.

[Brillopad]

If ypou don't want to get pregnant use protection

And that clearly works both ways - if a man does not want to be a dad yet does nothing to protect himself and put a cover on it he is just as responsible.

[Cherie]

Already saw them this morning...i must say i was surprised at the amount of homosexuals standing with them.

It would be interesting to see a case where a gay couples surrogate aborted their baby at 12 weeks because she decided she couldn’t go through with it

[Oliver_W]

The state shouldn't be about restricting personal choice and freedom over what people can and cannot do with their own bodies.

Does a pregnant woman have four arms, four legs, and two heads? No, because the body growing inside them is not their own.

[Beso]

It would be interesting to see a case where a gay couples surrogate aborted their baby at 12 weeks because she decided she couldn’t go through with it

Just another dead baby.

[Brillopad]

Does a pregnant woman have four arms, four legs, and two heads? No, because the body growing inside them is not their own.

Until that child is born the child is a part of them and it is not for men to try to find reasons why they can tell women what they can/cannot do with their own bodies.

It is not an easy decision for most - and until any man finds himself in that exact position he hasn’t a clue! Put a cover on it and no man will be in the situation where a woman will be terminating his baby.

[thesheriff443]

Abortion is legal and I think that is the right decision setting aside what someone considers right and wrong.

For some an abortion is an horrific experience mentally and psychically and yet for some it's getting rid of a mistake or failing to us protection, for some they have had several abortions due to having casual sex.

On the other side of the coin we have woman who are drug and drink dependent having kids that are taken away at birth and put in the care system and will never see their mother I know of one example of this in which the person in question has had three kids, taken away as soon as she gives birth.

Some men push a woman into an abortion some men beg a woman not to have one.

[Smithy]

Already saw them this morning...i must say i was surprised at the amount of homosexuals standing with them.

Gay men seem to understand a woman’s body is her own to make descisions with a lot more than straight men :hee:

[Beso]

Gay men seem to understand a woman’s body is her own to make descisions with a lot more than straight men :hee:

There were a lot more straight men on the clips than gay men.:shrug:

[Nicky91]

Gay men seem to understand a woman’s body is her own to make descisions with a lot more than straight men :hee:

well i also do understand that

[Cherie]

Gay men seem to understand a woman’s body is her own to make descisions with a lot more than straight men :hee:

They don't understand the issues fully pertaining to fathers because the only way they will become Dads of babys from their own genepool is via a water tight contract with a surrogate :hee:

[Smithy]

They don't understand the issues fully pertaining to fathers because the only way they will become Dads of babys from their own genepool is via a water tight contract with a surrogate :hee:

Oh yeah a gay man has never had a child with a woman before eh

[Cherie]

Oh yeah a gay man has never had a child with a woman before eh

Not if he is out and proud no, and you are boiling it down to an very niche group whereas you had no trouble at all painting all straight men as not being understanding, when the cap fits eh?

[Greg!]

Not if he is out and proud no

Actually a lot of gays have a child with a female friend and raise it together or get a surrogate but go off!

[Smithy]

Not if he is out and proud no, and you are boiling it down to an very niche group whereas you had no trouble at all painting all straight men as not being understanding, when the cap fits eh?

:skull::skull:

The ignorance

[Cherie]

Actually a lot of gays have a child with a female friend and raise it together or get a surrogate but go off!

can you read my post where I mentioned surrogates, in your haste to get involved you seem to have missed that, not unusual it has to be said, also that is a completely different issue as the female has come to an agreement to have a child, it is not an accidental pregnancy so bears no relevance whatsoever

[Cherie]

:skull::skull:

The ignorance

and of course your post about straight men not understanding female issues is a glowing testament to education :joker:

[Greg!]

can you read my post where I mentioned surrogates, in your haste to get involved you seem to have missed that, not unusual it has to be said, also that is a completely different issue as the female has come to an agreement to have a child, it is not an accident so bears no relevance whatsoever

But you said no openly gay man has "ever" had a baby with a woman. So do you disagree with yourself or?

[Cherie]

But you said no openly gay man has "ever" had a baby with a woman. So do you disagree with yourself or?

No a gay man wont get a woman pregnant by accident unless he is in the closet but we are not talking about that are we?