Child brides and religion

[Brillopad]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-44672939

Disgusting. Child abuse in the name of religion. It always breaks my heart when these poor girls who are nothing but children get offered up to dirty old men/paedeos under the guise of ‘marriage’ In this modern world this needs to stop.

[Niamh.]

It's sickening, arranged marriages in general are but obviously ones when the bride is child are particularly disgusting

[kirklancaster]

I agree with Brillopad and Niamh - this horrific and vile practice needs totally eradicating by ALL countries.

Those 'men' who are part of this disgusting and evil 'custom' KNOW that it is morally wrong and depraved to 'marry' a child no matter what is permissible under any Law or archaic Religious 'recruitment-device' and they are nothing more than ****ing paedophiles.

[Maru]

The FLDS practice this. Polygamist religion that married out all their child brides and was completely cut off from the outside world... well, the "unaware" folk were kept out of the loop... the Elders secretly benefited modern life and the numerous child welfare paychecks :spin:

I guess Mormonism is technically an American religion so maybe it's not talked about there? I think they're basically Christianity but with a modern prophet, but they used to practice polygamy in the States...

[bots]

in this particular instance it looks like the groom was breaking the law of the country, so he will likely get put away.

[Brillopad]

in this particular instance it looks like the groom was breaking the law of the country, so he will likely get put away.

Unfortunately not - although they crimilized sex crimes against chilfpdren they didn’t actually crimilize child marriage according to the article. Which of course is ridiculous as child marriage amounts to the same.

[user104658]

It is awful, and I do think though that it's also worth remembering that it's not just the girls who are forced into these things. Many of the young men are pressured into it by their parents / expected to do it and will be thrown out on the streets if they don't comply, often in places where there's no support for people who are cast out by their family, or they're just "shamed" for it.

I mean it's not really that foreign a concept here in Britain, is it? Obviously she wasn't a child bride (though she was much younger than him...) - but Charles was essentially forced to marry Diana. He didn't want to, he loved someone else, but he was "paired off" with someone who the Royals at the time believed better fit the image. It is exactly the same thing as any other "arranged" religious marriage. Though again obviously different in that she wasn't a child.

But yes it is time for the entire practice to stop. It's also just worth recognising that it hasn't always been specific to "certain cultures" and has been commonplace in pretty much every country throughout history, with teenage girl brides married off to men in their 30's right here in the UK as recently as the late Victorian era.

[Brillopad]

It is awful, and I do think though that it's also worth remembering that it's not just the girls who are forced into these things. Many of the young men are pressured into it by their parents / expected to do it and will be thrown out on the streets if they don't comply, often in places where there's no support for people who are cast out by their family, or they're just "shamed" for it.

I mean it's not really that foreign a concept here in Britain, is it? Obviously she wasn't a child bride (though she was much younger than him...) - but Charles was essentially forced to marry Diana. He didn't want to, he loved someone else, but he was "paired off" with someone who the Royals at the time believed better fit the image. It is exactly the same thing as any other "arranged" religious marriage. Though again obviously different in that she wasn't a child.

But yes it is time for the entire practice to stop. It's also just worth recognising that it hasn't always been specific to "certain cultures" and has been commonplace in pretty much every country throughout history, with teenage girl brides married off to men in their 30's right here in the UK as recently as the late Victorian era.

Regarding last paragraph - we can’t change the past and can only change what is happening now. It is a vile practice and many people practising it today don’t have the excuse of ignorance.

[user104658]

Regarding last paragraph - we can’t change the past and can only change what is happening now. It is a vile practice and many people practising it today don’t have the excuse of ignorance.

True, but it's easier to tackle by acknowledging that it DID happen everywhere and mostly HAS been stopped, rather than trying to pretend that our own hands are clean whilst "weird other cultures" do terrible things. It stops the dialogue dead in its tracks and makes such cultures MORE insular and resistant to change.

In other words it's better to say "Hey, we used to do that too but we've moved on and realised that it's not a good thing, and you can too", than "UGH we would NEVER do such disgusting things and you dirty folks must become more like us!"

[Niamh.]

True, but it's easier to tackle by acknowledging that it DID happen everywhere and mostly HAS been stopped, rather than trying to pretend that our own hands are clean whilst "weird other cultures" do terrible things. It stops the dialogue dead in its tracks and makes such cultures MORE insular and resistant to change.

In other words it's better to say "Hey, we used to do that too but we've moved on and realised that it's not a good thing, and you can too", than "UGH we would NEVER do such disgusting things and you dirty folks must become more like us!"

Very true

[Brillopad]

True, but it's easier to tackle by acknowledging that it DID happen everywhere and mostly HAS been stopped, rather than trying to pretend that our own hands are clean whilst "weird other cultures" do terrible things. It stops the dialogue dead in its tracks and makes such cultures MORE insular and resistant to change.

In other words it's better to say "Hey, we used to do that too but we've moved on and realised that it's not a good thing, and you can too", than "UGH we would NEVER do such disgusting things and you dirty folks must become more like us!"

I think most agree that so-called ‘men’ of 40 from whatever time, culture or background are DIRTY - that is very much the point. Such men have hidden behind the excuse of ‘ignorance’ for far too long. How long do we dawdle along being polite about it before we say enough is enough!

[kirklancaster]

True, but it's easier to tackle by acknowledging that it DID happen everywhere and mostly HAS been stopped, rather than trying to pretend that our own hands are clean whilst "weird other cultures" do terrible things. It stops the dialogue dead in its tracks and makes such cultures MORE insular and resistant to change.

In other words it's better to say "Hey, we used to do that too but we've moved on and realised that it's not a good thing, and you can too", than "UGH we would NEVER do such disgusting things and you dirty folks must become more like us!"

It's already easy to tackle; stop pandering to P.C. and just say; "Not In OUR Country under OUR laws" - whichever civilised country around the globe that happens to be.

[user104658]

It's already easy to tackle; stop pandering to P.C. and just say; "Not In OUR Country under OUR laws" - whichever civilised country around the globe that happens to be.You're right kirk, I forgot that if you make something illegal it stops happening.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its very sad that as a nation we have evolved out of the grips of superstition and the cults of churches only to mass import a whole swathe of people who are still very much in its grip

and we happily build them places to go and celebrate this ignorance

[Brillopad]

You're right kirk, I forgot that if you make something illegal it stops happening.

There are stronger powers/punishments to deal with it if crimiinaluzed as it should be.

[kirklancaster]

You're right kirk, I forgot that if you make something illegal it stops happening.

:laugh: Don't start. We both know it doesn't but at least it gives us the ability to punish the filthy bastards who decide to carry on with the practice and it does give some protection to those little girls and affords any sympathetic relatives the opportunity to get official help.

[Kizzy]

I'd say as per religion and culture are being intertwined. maybe child brides are culturally the norm in certain cultures, but is it written religious text?...

This is where multiculturalism falls a bit flat, as has been said we had in the past these issues and socially reformed to protect children which is why it is such an unacceptable clash to see cultures who haven't quite accepted this.
It should NEVER be seen as acceptable here.

I have no issue with religious observance, however cultures and laws that counter our rights, laws and protections no.

[user104658]

[emoji23] Don't start. We both know it doesn't but at least it gives us the ability to punish the filthy bastards who decide to carry on with the practice and it does give some protection to those little girls and affords any sympathetic relatives the opportunity to get official help.But surely it is already illegal and still happens? To be honest... Regardless of legality, and though its obviously not AS bad, it still leaves a sour taste when 30+ year olds are marrying 16 year olds (with family pressure) which is of course totally legal. It has to be tackled at a cultural level, as well as a legal level, or its pointless.

As has been said "forced marriages" are wrong even when it's not children who are the victims of it, and how can you tackle that legally? Usually in the west it's not literal force or the threat of violence - its simple obedience to the authority of parents, threats of being disowned by the family, shamed, etc. and you can't legislate against those things. Yes it's abhorrent for any parent to disown and shame their young adult offspring for not being obedient - but it's impossible to make it illegal. So people will legally agree to arranged marriage, just like ol' Prince Charles did, out of duty... Even though if you really look at it, it's still forced.

[Brillopad]

But surely it is already illegal and still happens? To be honest... Regardless of legality, and though its obviously not AS bad, it still leaves a sour taste when 30+ year olds are marrying 16 year olds (with family pressure) which is of course totally legal. It has to be tackled at a cultural level, as well as a legal level, or its pointless.

As has been said "forced marriages" are wrong even when it's not children who are the victims of it, and how can you tackle that legally? Usually in the west it's not literal force or the threat of violence - its simple obedience to the authority of parents, threats of being disowned by the family, shamed, etc. and you can't legislate against those things. Yes it's abhorrent for any parent to disown and shame their young adult offspring for not being obedient - but it's impossible to make it illegal. So people will legally agree to arranged marriage, just like ol' Prince Charles did, out of duty... Even though if you really look at it, it's still forced.

Culture is just as big an excuse - oh well it’s just their culture. No it’s not - simple decency, intelligence and humanity (a word thrown around a lot lately by some) should tell most people it’s wrong. You shouldn’t need to be told that by anyone whatever your culture.

[GoldHeart]

It's sickening, arranged marriages in general are but obviously ones when the bride is child are particularly disgusting

Arranged marriages between adults is one thing and some of these arranged marriages between ADULTS even work out as both families are friends ,it's still weird but at least they're adults ( and I'm talking about the ones who are NOT forced into it) .

But the child brides is child abuse 100% and it has nothing to do with religion and they're once again abusing their power and it's disgusting & disturbing and no amount of cultural excuses can condone paedophilia :umm2: .

[kirklancaster]

I'd say as per religion and culture are being intertwined. maybe child brides are culturally the norm in certain cultures, but is it written religious text?...

This is where multiculturalism falls a bit flat, as has been said we had in the past these issues and socially reformed to protect children which is why it is such an unacceptable clash to see cultures who haven't quite accepted this.
It should NEVER be seen as acceptable here.

I have no issue with religious observance, however cultures and laws that counter our rights, laws and protections no.

Great post, Kizzy.

[Livia]

Child brides, honour killings, FGM... just some of the cultural norms that are against the law in this country, but that people are frightened of prosecuting for fear of offence. The girls who suffer these appalling crimes are being let down by this country in much the same way that the young girls in Rotherham were let down. A crime is a crime, regardless of the faith, colour or background of the perpetrator. Let's hope one day it'll be that simple.

[chuff me dizzy]

It's sickening, arranged marriages in general are but obviously ones when the bride is child are particularly disgusting

:clap1:

[kirklancaster]

Child brides, honour killings, FGM... just some of the cultural norms that are against the law in this country, but that people are frightened of prosecuting for fear of offence. The girls who suffer these appalling crimes are being let down by this country in much the same way that the young girls in Rotherham were let down. A crime is a crime, regardless of the faith, colour or background of the perpetrator. Let's hope one day it'll be that simple.

All true - Welcome Back, Liv.

[Livia]

All true - Welcome Back, Liv.

Thanks Kirk. I've been busy... nice to be back.

[Brillopad]

Child brides, honour killings, FGM... just some of the cultural norms that are against the law in this country, but that people are frightened of prosecuting for fear of offence. The girls who suffer these appalling crimes are being let down by this country in much the same way that the young girls in Rotherham were let down. A crime is a crime, regardless of the faith, colour or background of the perpetrator. Let's hope one day it'll be that simple.

:thumbs:

[Beso]

Is this the **** thats an imam as well?...malaysian man marries 11yr old thia girl?

[Kazanne]

It's all in what Livia said.

[Kizzy]

I'm so glad she agreed with me then :laugh:

[Denver]

It is not religion it us culture

[kirklancaster]

It is not religion it us culture

It is perverted opportunism facilitated by an archaic system which was founded by perverts for perverts to boost recruitment to their cause.

[Kizzy]

It is perverted opportunism facilitated by an archaic system which was founded by perverts for perverts to boost recruitment to their cause.

We get it you dislike Catholics! jeeze....

[kirklancaster]

We get it you dislike Catholics! jeeze....

Where in the world does the Catholic Church advocate old perverts marrying children or allow Children to be married?

Poor joke.

Try another religion.

[Kizzy]

Where in the world does the Catholic Church advocate old perverts marrying children or allow Children to be married?

Poor joke.

Try another religion.

Oh I thought the discussion was focused on confirmation where little girls dream of becoming brides of Christ... bit creepy that.

[kirklancaster]

Oh I thought the discussion was focused on confirmation where little girls dream of becoming brides of Christ... bit creepy that.

If you really thought that then you need help. Confirmation in the Christian religion is SYMBOLIC, tiny little girls being forced to marry old men in some other religions is PHYSICAL and ACTUAL.

[Cherie]

Got to page 2 before the catholics got dragged into a topic that doesnt relate to them, you are slipping Kizzy, confirmation is guidance by the Holy Spirit for both males and females, nothing to do with being a bride of Christ :umm2:

[Cherie]

The article is very sad, poverty is often at the root of this practice rather than culture

[kirklancaster]

Got to page 2 before the catholics got dragged into a topic that doesnt relate to them, you are slipping Kizzy, confirmation is guidance by the Holy Spirit for both males and females, nothing to do with being a bride of Christ :umm2:

She KNOWS that - she is just trying to bait me because she knows that I am a Christian.

[Cherie]

She KNOWS that - she is just trying to bait me because she knows that I am a Christian.

Maybe a conversion to Islam is overdue :laugh:

[kirklancaster]

Maybe a conversion to Islam is overdue :laugh:

:laugh: I'm thinking about it.

[GoldHeart]

Got to page 2 before the catholics got dragged into a topic that doesnt relate to them, you are slipping Kizzy, confirmation is guidance by the Holy Spirit for both males and females, nothing to do with being a bride of Christ :umm2:

Christianity & Catholism always gets a battering unfortunately :bored: .
I'm glad you've brought sense to this .

Interesting when majority of child brides we hear about is actually in another religion that gets away with it as they marry these children in other countries . Because they know in this country it's illegal :nono: .

[Niamh.]

Christianity & Catholism always gets a battering unfortunately :bored: .
I'm glad you've brought sense to this .

Interesting when majority of child brides we hear about is actually in another religion that gets away with it as they marry these children in other countries . Because they know in this country it's illegal :nono: .

They "get away with it" because they have different laws in different countries. I don't think anyone her would agree with those laws btw it's just that they're happening in differentcountries that we don't live in so have no control over. Christianity and Catholicism on the otherhand are the majority (by a long way) religions in the UK and Ireland. Catholicism had a massive influence over the laws in Ireland up until very recently, it still has a hold over our state schools and personally I know a hell of a lot more about it than other religions and is really the only one that I have any personal experience or proper knowledge of. Which is the reason that's the only one I'll have any informed opinion on

[Nicky91]

every culture has it's different traditions, what we might find weird is normal for them and what is normal for us, they might find weird

[Cherie]

They "get away with it" because they have different laws in different countries. I don't think anyone her would agree with those laws btw it's just that they're happening in differentcountries that we don't live in so have no control over. Christianity and Catholicism on the otherhand are the majority (by a long way) religions in the UK and Ireland. Catholicism had a massive influence over the laws in Ireland up until very recently, it still has a hold over our state schools and personally I know a hell of a lot more about it than other religions and is really the only one that I have any personal experience or proper knowledge of. Which is the reason that's the only one I'll have any informed opinion on

It’s got nada to do with the discussion topic though

[Livia]

Catholics don't cut the clitoris off of girl children, without anesthetic and with unsterilised equipemt, and sew up their vagina so there's just enough room to bleed through. Neither do they force young girls to marry old men. I can't see any similarity between the religions that encourage this and Christianity in any form. Okay, there are perverts who've assaulted kids but they are not the "norm" in Christianity. Abusing young girls though IS the norm in some other religions.

[Niamh.]

It’s got nada to do with the discussion topic though

You bring up one religion, others will follow as the discussion progresses :shrug:

[Cherie]

You bring up one religion, others will follow as the discussion progresses :shrug:

The topic is child brides, nothing to to with catholicism no matter how much someone wants it to be, Kizzy saying confirmation is about becoming a bride of Christ is completely inaccurate

[Niamh.]

Catholics don't cut the clitoris off of girl children, without anesthetic and with unsterilised equipemt, and sew up their vagina so there's just enough room to bleed through. Neither do they don't force young girls to marry old men. I can't see any similarity between the religions that encourage this and Christianity in any form. Okay, there are perverts who've assaulted kids but they are not the "norm" in Christianity. Abusing young girls though IS the norm in some other religions.

FGM is practiced among some adherents of the Muslim, Christian, and Jewish faiths. FGM is also practiced among some animists, who believe in the existence of individual spirits and supernatural forces. It is erroneously linked to religion, is not particular to any religious faith, and predates Christianity and Islam.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2010/06/16/qa-female-genital-mutilation
Terrible practice but not specific to a religion more cultures

[Nicky91]

You bring up one religion, others will follow as the discussion progresses :shrug:

tbh the thread title just says religion, not specifically which religion

[Kizzy]

She KNOWS that - she is just trying to bait me because she knows that I am a Christian.

Nope, and religion is in the thread heading, there is no proviso as to which religion is under discussion. I was alluding to this,

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/philip-wilson-roman-catholic-church-child-sex-abuse-jail-sentence-australia-newcastle-philip-wilson-a8428171.html

Nuns are brides of christ though Cherie :shrug: I still think confirmation is creepy.

[Livia]

So this isn't about Muslims anymore? Why not? Why, whenever there's a discussion about their appalling treatment of young women and girls, does it always have to turn into a case of whataboutery?

[Kizzy]

So this isn't about Muslims anymore? Why not? Why, whenever there's a discussion about their appalling treatment of young women and girls, does it always have to turn into a case of whataboutery?

It never was was it?.... :/

[GoldHeart]

]They "get away with it" because they have different laws in different countries.[/B] I don't think anyone her would agree with those laws btw it's just that they're happening in differentcountries that we don't live in so have no control over. Christianity and Catholicism on the otherhand are the majority (by a long way) religions in the UK and Ireland. Catholicism had a massive influence over the laws in Ireland up until very recently, it still has a hold over our state schools and personally I know a hell of a lot more about it than other religions and is really the only one that I have any personal experience or proper knowledge of. Which is the reason that's the only one I'll have any informed opinion on

Yeah that's what I'm saying Niamh

But I still don't know why Christianity & Catholism get dragged into this( yes abuse happens under all kinds of false religion) everyone knows majority of child brides being forced into marriages are in Islamic countries .

But as I've said it's not cultural or anything to do with religion it's child abuse 100% .
A normal decent person wouldn't follow these insane made up rules, only perverted people who get a high from power :nono: .

I know there's young girls forced into marriages in America and other places in the name of "Christianity" , usually it's teenagers aged 15 etc so still child abuse . There's alot of weird sects & cults .

[Niamh.]

Yeah that's what I'm saying Niamh

But I still don't know why Christianity & Catholism get dragged into this( yes abuse happens under all kinds of false religion) everyone knows majority of child brides being forced into marriages are in Islamic countries .

But as I've said it's not cultural or anything to do with religion it's child abuse 100% .
A normal decent person wouldn't follow these insane made up rules, only perverted people who get a high from power :nono: .

I know there's young girls forced into marriages in America and other places in the name of "Christianity" , usually it's teenagers aged 15 etc so still child abuse . There's alot of weird sects & cults .

Yes indeed and I don't think you'll get many who disagree with that :thumbs:

[Maru]

Sex/consent is legalized at younger ages in different countries because a childs maturity does vary significantly by culture. So getting married younger than we are accustomed to does happen outside of doctrinal/traditional confines... I dont agree with kids marrying early in our culture, for obvious reasond, but there are some parts of the US in recent times that ppl may have married early for different reasons... my grandmother decided to get married at the age of 14. Not forced or anything, it was just happened in the culture she grew up. She and my grandfather used to live in the Hill Country high up in the mountains... you wouldn't know it talking to her, that she married so young. She is also quite mature... she taught herself how to drive, did a lot of firsts on her own and was fairly independent... it's just a different mindset, a different culture, post-Depression era thinking where the family looked after each other, and she and her sisters were tight-knit and looked after each other despite moving away and living at different ends of the US later on in life... my grandfather too, was a succesful mechanic running his own shop despite the fact he never learned to read..

[Kizzy]

Sex/consent is legalized at younger ages in different countries because a childs maturity does vary significantly by culture. So getting married younger than we are accustomed to does happen outside of doctrinal/traditional confines... I dont agree with kids marrying early in our culture, for obvious reasond, but there are some parts of the US in recent times that ppl may have married early for different reasons... my grandmother decided to get married at the age of 14. Not forced or anything, it was just happened in the culture she grew up. She and my grandfather used to live in the Hill Country high up in the mountains... you wouldn't know it talking to her, that she married so young. She is also quite mature... she taught herself how to drive, did a lot of firsts on her own and was fairly independent... it's just a different mindset, a different culture, post-Depression era thinking where the family looked after each other, and she and her sisters were tight-knit and looked after each other despite moving away and living at different ends of the US later on in life... my grandfather too, was a succesful mechanic running his own shop despite the fact he never learned to read..

Sorry I don't buy that at all, in this country children matured quicker as they were expected to work and/or run the home, we legislated against that a century ago.

Just because some cultures still exploit young people does not make it right, physically bodies can be unable to take the outcome of marriage at a young age, not to be too graphic it leads to severe complications and injury.

My heart goes out to your grandmother who sounds a wonderful woman, however I can't condone what you suggest was her decision yes she lived a good life however that was in spite of the start she had, not because of it.

I should like to ask her and other child brides if they had the choice then to wait as we do now would they?

[GoldHeart]

Sorry I don't buy that at all, in this country children matured quicker as they were expected to work and/or run the home, we legislated against that a century ago.

Just because some cultures still exploit young people does not make it right, physically bodies can be unable to take the outcome of marriage at a young age, not to be too graphic it leads to severe complications and injury.

My heart goes out to your grandmother who sounds a wonderful woman, however I can't condone what you suggest was her decision yes she lived a good life however that was in spite of the start she had, not because of it.

I should like to ask her and other child brides if they had the choice then to wait as we do now would they?

That's the twisted thing about it all ,these girls bodies HAVEN'T developed propely , otherwise so many wouldn't be dying in child birth after perverts have used them .

Girls as young as 9 !!! Are being exploited in these places :shocked: .