Should Dog Owners be allowed to punish their dogs

[Niamh.]

By hitting them? :think:

Lets see how this goes parmnion

[Denver]

No animals are more likely to learn and font usually follow a group of bad dogs

[Crimson Dynamo]

Boy dogs, big ones need to know who is boss

yes

any dog that steps out of line and bares there teeth will get a thump from me. end of

[Niamh.]

No animals are more likely to learn and font usually follow a group of bad dogs

Interesting

Boy dogs, big ones need to know who is boss

yes

any dog that steps out of line and bares there teeth will get a thump from me. end of

Atleast you're consistent :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Interesting



Atleast you're consistent :laugh:

Neem i have seen too many owners where the fecking dog thinks its the boss of the house

"oh dont move him from the sofa he can get quite snappy"

i mean wtaf? :conf:

[Niamh.]

Neem i have seen too many owners where the fecking dog thinks its the boss of the house

"oh dont move him from the sofa he can get quite snappy"

i mean wtaf? :conf:

Oh no I hate that actually but a raised voice always does the trick with Pips also she's not allowed on the couch

[AnnieK]

Neem i have seen too many owners where the fecking dog thinks its the boss of the house

"oh dont move him from the sofa he can get quite snappy"

i mean wtaf? :conf:

My vet told me (when I had a large breed dog) that smacking does no good anyway. You have to make them think you are the pack leader by making yourself big and loud....and more dominant than them.

I agree though, some dog owners baby dogs far too much, makes me cringe.

[Shaun]

I would tap my dog on the nose if he tried to steal my food, little bugger. (Which is basically what I said for the child thread, an occasional smacked bum is fine, just obviously not... a punch or throwing things at them or etc. :p)

[Twosugars]

never, hitting dogs is stupid and cruel

I've had big dogs all my life and never ever hit them
asserting dominance if needed can be done in other ways
it's just ****ing lazy to think you need to hit your dog

[Amy Jade]

I think if the dog is being unruly and is not responding to other methods then a light smack is fine.

[Crimson Dynamo]

never, hitting dogs is stupid and cruel

I've had big dogs all my life and never ever hit them
asserting dominance if needed can be done in other ways
it's just ****ing lazy to think you need to hit your dog

you sound like the type of owner who sits on the carpet and eats his tea whilst the dog snoozes on the best chair

[Niamh.]

you sound like the type of owner who sits on the carpet and eats his tea whilst the dog snoozes on the best chair

:laugh:

[Twosugars]

have you ever seen Cesar Milan or Victoria Stilwell hitting dogs? or any other reputable trainer on tv advocating hitting dogs?
A light tap fine when needed but dominance should never be asserted with violence, you need to be an assertive owner that sets rules with firmness and rewards, not hitting
jfc

[Crimson Dynamo]

I wonder what the "no i sit my dog down and explain " posters" would do if they were out for a walk and another dog started attacking their dog?


I expect the rule book goes oot the window as they come out swinging and kicking?

[Twosugars]

you sound like the type of owner who sits on the carpet and eats his tea whilst the dog snoozes on the best chair

and you are ignorant
quits?

I was always top dog with my dogs and never had to hit them
I'm sorry if you hit yours, cleary you don't know how to work with dogs
maybe someone should give you Milan's series on dvd for christmas?

[Niamh.]

have you ever seen Cesar Milan or Victoria Stilwell hitting dogs? or any other reputable trainer on tv advocating hitting dogs?
A light tap fine when needed but dominance should never be asserted with violence, you need to be an assertive owner that sets rules with firmness and rewards, not hitting
jfc

I love Cesar Milans shows but apparently his methods have been criticised by alot of dog experts

[Beso]

Bite them back if they bite you.

[Twosugars]

I love Cesar Milans shows but apparently his methods have been criticised by alot of dog experts

I know, but I don't see the problem they describe
he's a traditionalist, but even he wouldn't hit his dogs

[Niamh.]

I know, but I don't see the problem they describe
he's a traditionalist, but even he wouldn't hit his dogs

I still love him anyway aswell :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

and you are ignorant
quits?

I was always top dog with my dogs and never had to hit them
I'm sorry if you hit yours, cleary you don't know how to work with dogs
maybe someone should give you Milan's series on dvd for christmas?

I have had dogs longer than you have had hot dinners and i dot need a tv programme to tell me how to look after them

[Crimson Dynamo]

I know, but I don't see the problem they describe
he's a traditionalist, but even he wouldn't hit his dogs

not on tv no

but you have no idea what he does in his home

[Beso]

Cesar milan sounds like a crufts show dog.

[Kizzy]

I'd say dog attacks are due to mistreatment definitely :(

[Twosugars]

not on tv no

but you have no idea what he does in his home

but of course you do

[Crimson Dynamo]

but of course you do

no and i would not be so silly as to claim to...

[Twosugars]

I have had dogs longer than you have had hot dinners and i dot need a tv programme to tell me how to look after them

maybe you do if you think you need to hit them to make them obey you

and don't make stupid statements that my dogs ruled me
I don't have sense of humour when it comes to my dogs or dog cruelty so back off with your "funny" baiting
there's a whole world of behaviour modification between spoiled dogs and dogs that "need" to be hit, something all owners should now
there's no need for either extreme

[Nicky91]

no, and i'm against every type of animal abuse

[Kizzy]

Bite them back if they bite you.

That only works on puppies to mimic mummy dog... try it on a stray and you might find that's bogus advice.

[chuff me dizzy]

Its the owners who deserve the slap not the dogs !! Owners who think you should fall in love with their mutt ,Owners who dress the poor thing in a dickie bow thinking it looks good ,when it actually looks stupid, owners who spend more on clothes for the dog than they do their kids ,owners who think its fine to let their dog shed its entire fur over your black jeans, owners who dont clean the dog **** up from the pavements .... No the dogs dont deserve a slap .....the owners do

[Twosugars]

Its the owners who deserve the slap not the dogs !! Owners who think you should fall in love with their mutt ,Owners who dress the poor thing in a dickie bow thinking it looks good ,when it actually looks stupid, owners who spend more on clothes for the dog than they do their kids ,owners who think its fine to let their dog shed its entire fur over your black jeans, owners who dont clean the dog **** up from the pavements .... No the dogs dont deserve a slap .....the owners do

It's a rare moment when we totally agree
Dogs should be allowed to be dogs not toys or pretend children

[Beso]

That only works on puppies to mimic mummy dog... try it on a stray and you might find that's bogus advice.

I wouldnt bite a stray dog....yuck..mangy diseased displaced unwanted filthy beasts.


A nice labrador puppy though...mmmmm...yum yum.

[chuff me dizzy]

It's a rare moment when we totally agree
Dogs should be allowed to be dogs not toys or pretend children

Its pathetic ,really it is

[Twosugars]

Its pathetic ,really it is

Embarrassing for the dog and telling of the owner

[Matthew.]

don’t hit your dog ffs, think it’s standard that people do not do this

[Beso]

don’t hit your dog ffs, think it’s standard that people do not do this

Yeah, take it out on the kids instead.

[chuff me dizzy]

Embarrassing for the dog and telling of the owner

My sister in law cuddles hers from coming in from work to going to work again the following day, it sleeps with her, it even goes in the bloody bath with her, its got its own dog pushchair for when it rains ,she kisses it on its lips, shares food with it passed from her mouth this dog has just licked its arse and old man clean ffs ,she calls it her baby ,its NOT your baby its a D O G

[Alf]

you sound like the type of owner who sits on the carpet and eats his tea whilst the dog snoozes on the best chair:laugh:

[user104658]

It's legit worrying that some people think hitting a "big dog" is a good idea :umm2:. Keep it away from children because all you're doing is creating a big aggressive dog. The reason it doesn't bite back at the person doing the hitting is that it thinks that person is above them in the pecking order. And it thinks that the thing to do to anyone below them in the pecking order, is hurt them to assert themself.

In other words; it's going to lash out at other animals, other humans, and especially kids. Well done.

Despite people thinking that dogs are "super smart" - they are not. What they are is easily trained, because they are NOT all that smart, dog psychology is really very basic and all you have to do to assert yourself as your dog's pack leader is act like it. Stand over it, use a strong voice, always GIVE it food (never allow it to TAKE food from you) et voila. No hitting required.

Dogs are susceptible to pavlovian response; action = reward. They have no concept of negative consequence. They have literally no idea why they're being hit, and don't attach the "punishment" to the specific act that you're punishing them for, they just think you're randomly hitting them to gain submission.

[Beso]

How do police train their dogs?

[chuff me dizzy]

How do police train their dogs?

By rewarding them ,I watched a documentary on it very interesting

[Barry.]

If they attacked or bite people I say yes. Over hyper dogs, maybe a tap on the nose.

[kirklancaster]

Its the owners who deserve the slap not the dogs !! Owners who think you should fall in love with their mutt ,Owners who dress the poor thing in a dickie bow thinking it looks good ,when it actually looks stupid, owners who spend more on clothes for the dog than they do their kids ,owners who think its fine to let their dog shed its entire fur over your black jeans, owners who dont clean the dog **** up from the pavements .... No the dogs dont deserve a slap .....the owners do

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Common sense, truth and logic - as always, Chuff.

[Twosugars]

It's legit worrying that some people think hitting a "big dog" is a good idea :umm2:. Keep it away from children because all you're doing is creating a big aggressive dog. The reason it doesn't bite back at the person doing the hitting is that it thinks that person is above them in the pecking order. And it thinks that the thing to do to anyone below them in the pecking order, is hurt them to assert themself.

In other words; it's going to lash out at other animals, other humans, and especially kids. Well done.

Despite people thinking that dogs are "super smart" - they are not. What they are is easily trained, because they are NOT all that smart, dog psychology is really very basic and all you have to do to assert yourself as your dog's pack leader is act like it. Stand over it, use a strong voice, always GIVE it food (never allow it to TAKE food from you) et voila. No hitting required.

Dogs are susceptible to pavlovian response; action = reward. They have no concept of negative consequence. They have literally no idea why they're being hit, and don't attach the "punishment" to the specific act that you're punishing them for, they just think you're randomly hitting them to gain submission.

TS, you've spoken so much sense in different threads today :worship:
some trumpets (not naming names) should learn from you :fist:

[chuff me dizzy]

:clap1::clap1::clap1: Common sense, truth and logic - as always, Chuff.

Why thank you kind sir :douf:

[kirklancaster]

It's legit worrying that some people think hitting a "big dog" is a good idea :umm2:. Keep it away from children because all you're doing is creating a big aggressive dog. The reason it doesn't bite back at the person doing the hitting is that it thinks that person is above them in the pecking order. And it thinks that the thing to do to anyone below them in the pecking order, is hurt them to assert themself.

In other words; it's going to lash out at other animals, other humans, and especially kids. Well done.

Despite people thinking that dogs are "super smart" - they are not. What they are is easily trained, because they are NOT all that smart, dog psychology is really very basic and all you have to do to assert yourself as your dog's pack leader is act like it. Stand over it, use a strong voice, always GIVE it food (never allow it to TAKE food from you) et voila. No hitting required.

Dogs are susceptible to pavlovian response; action = reward. They have no concept of negative consequence. They have literally no idea why they're being hit, and don't attach the "punishment" to the specific act that you're punishing them for, they just think you're randomly hitting them to gain submission.

Great post, T.S.

As with children, I don't like to witness anyone hitting a dog. There are other ways.

[Kazanne]

Sorry I would NEVER hit an animal never mind a dog , I have never had a nasty dog , they have all been as stupid as I am , I find a stern voice is usually enough, Our dog is part of our family , as is the cat , so, no smacking .

[user104658]

How do police train their dogs?

Food rewards and praise, pretty much the only way to properly train a dog. Of course the police trainers are highly skilled at it, and they can also tell very quickly which dogs are "cut out for it" and the others are sold on (or adopted by officers quite often).

My next door neighbour as a kid was a retired police dog trainer, he had two huge ex-police German Shepherds and a massive Black Lab, they were so well trained it was really fascinating.

[Beso]

By rewarding them ,I watched a documentary on it very interesting

Id like to watch that chuffle as my nephew sees it as a career move cause his pops kept alsations all his life..any idea what it was called?

[Denver]

If i ever caught my dog down the park with his mates drinking cider he knows he will be punished

[Glenn.]

I just have to look at my dog and she knows to stop what she’s doing. I’m a little bit more relaxed with her now as she’s kind of on her way out.

[Kazanne]

Kids and dogs have different roles in life though,so I think you do have to treat them differently, kids need to be taught the rights and wrongs of life and their punishments will be greater, I mean dogs wont be half as much work as a child, we have to use common sense with both. Children are a totally different ball game and very demanding.

[GoldHeart]

By hitting them? :think:

Lets see how this goes parmnion

Playfully on the nose maybe to let them know they've done something wrong. But it's usually your tone of voice and proper training which is how you discipline your dog :shrug: .

I don't agree with hitting them,if anything that'll probably cause the dog to lash out or you'll upset it .

The only way a dog should be hit or attacked is through self defense

[montblanc]

not at all

[Wizard.]

Well I shout at her say if she pees on the carpet I lock her in the bedroom but I have given her a little tap now and then nothing too hard but dogs can get over excited and sometimes it’s not appropriate

[Redway]

It's legit worrying that some people think hitting a "big dog" is a good idea :umm2:. Keep it away from children because all you're doing is creating a big aggressive dog. The reason it doesn't bite back at the person doing the hitting is that it thinks that person is above them in the pecking order. And it thinks that the thing to do to anyone below them in the pecking order, is hurt them to assert themself.

In other words; it's going to lash out at other animals, other humans, and especially kids. Well done.

Despite people thinking that dogs are "super smart" - they are not. What they are is easily trained, because they are NOT all that smart, dog psychology is really very basic and all you have to do to assert yourself as your dog's pack leader is act like it. Stand over it, use a strong voice, always GIVE it food (never allow it to TAKE food from you) et voila. No hitting required.

Dogs are susceptible to pavlovian response; action = reward. They have no concept of negative consequence. They have literally no idea why they're being hit, and don't attach the "punishment" to the specific act that you're punishing them for, they just think you're randomly hitting them to gain submission.

I don’t think concepts like submission apply to a dog.

[Niamh.]

Kids and dogs have different roles in life though,so I think you do have to treat them differently, kids need to be taught the rights and wrongs of life and their punishments will be greater, I mean dogs wont be half as much work as a child, we have to use common sense with both. Children are a totally different ball game and very demanding.

The question was by hitting them though

[Niamh.]

I don’t think concepts like submission apply to a dog.

Of course they do, maybe even more so than in humans infact

[chuff me dizzy]

Id like to watch that chuffle as my nephew sees it as a career move cause his pops kept alsations all his life..any idea what it was called?

No sorry it was a couple of years ago now x

[user104658]

I don’t think concepts like submission apply to a dog.Submission is the CORE concept of training a dog :think:. They're pack animals, they follow a pack hierarchy and submit to those who are higher in the pecking order. That's pretty much dog psychology in a nutshell. All of the human characteristics that humans put on them (e.g. "My dog loves me!" / "My dog misses me when I'm not around!") are just expressions of that. Dogs neither love nor miss humans, they just know they're ****ed without their pack leaders, so they suck up to them, and get anxious when they're "missing".

[user104658]

That happy crazy excitement when you come home? That's not "I'm so happy to see you!", that's "OH THANK GOD I was worried that I might starve!"

[Twosugars]

I don’t think concepts like submission apply to a dog.

:conf:

so submission and dominance are alien concepts to pack animals like dogs?
submission/dominance postures and behaviours they display from puppyhood throughout their lives are what in your view?

[Twosugars]

That happy crazy excitement when you come home? That's not "I'm so happy to see you!", that's "OH THANK GOD I was worried that I might starve!"

a tad outdated view
latest research (there's been a great rediscovery of dogs in science) suggest they do actually feel love

[Twosugars]

of course they see us as a prized resource to be protected, but that's not all, they also love us

[Redway]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/canine-corner/201303/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience

According to that study dogs’ emotions stop just after love (the 2-year-old human equivalent).

[Niamh.]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/canine-corner/201303/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience

According to that study dogs’ emotions stop just after love (the 2-year-old human equivalent).

Submission isn't an emotion though, it's a behaviour

[Redway]

Submission isn't an emotion though, it's a behaviour

I was talking about love there though.

[Niamh.]

I was talking about love there though.

right, well submission as others have said apply to dogs in a big way, ever heard of Top Dog or Alpha dog? :laugh:

[Redway]

right, well submission as others have said apply to dogs in a big way, ever heard of Top Dog or Alpha dog? :laugh:

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek when I made that comment about submission. It obviously applies to them on a biological level in a big way but there’s just something about the way TS worded submission. In the emotional human sense but I knew what he meant. Only the wording sounded funny that’s all.

[Niamh.]

I was being a little tongue-in-cheek when I made that comment about submission. It obviously applies to them on a biological level in a big way but there’s just something about the way TS worded submission. In the emotional human sense but I knew what he meant. Only the wording sounded funny that’s all.

sounded exactly like it should be meant to me but ok....

[Redway]

LMAO. Are dog matters really that deep?

[Niamh.]

LMAO. Are dog matters really that deep?

No?

[AnnieK]

LMAO. Are dog matters really that deep?

Classic submission post:laugh:

[Twosugars]

https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/canine-corner/201303/which-emotions-do-dogs-actually-experience

According to that study dogs’ emotions stop just after love (the 2-year-old human equivalent).

:clap1: very good summary

thanks, Redway!

...your dog can still feel love for you, and contentment when you are around, and aren't these the emotions we truly value?

[Twosugars]

the MRI experiments with oxytocin release in the brain confirm that dogs have the same reaction to their owners like owners have to them, love

[caprimint]

It's possible to show authority without hitting them (the same as it is with kids)

[Niamh.]

It's possible to show authority without hitting them (the same as it is with kids)

Of course it is. The most confusing thing is people who think it's fine to hit a child but evil to hit a dog

[caprimint]

Neem i have seen too many owners where the fecking dog thinks its the boss of the house

"oh dont move him from the sofa he can get quite snappy"

i mean wtaf? :conf:
you sound like the type of owner who sits on the carpet and eats his tea whilst the dog snoozes on the best chair
Its the owners who deserve the slap not the dogs !! Owners who think you should fall in love with their mutt ,Owners who dress the poor thing in a dickie bow thinking it looks good ,when it actually looks stupid, owners who spend more on clothes for the dog than they do their kids ,owners who think its fine to let their dog shed its entire fur over your black jeans, owners who dont clean the dog **** up from the pavements .... No the dogs dont deserve a slap .....the owners do
:joker::joker::joker::joker:

Omg this thread is too much. I should've known there would be some hilarious replies with Chuff and LT posting in here though. :joker:

[Twosugars]

Of course it is. The most confusing thing is people who think it's fine to hit a child but evil to hit a dog
so how this experiment with parallel threads (kids/dogs) is coming along?
have you identified anybody who thinks like that?

[user104658]

the MRI experiments with oxytocin release in the brain confirm that dogs have the same reaction to their owners like owners have to them, loveOK so they they experience something which chemically resembles (the human concept of) love... But then, we could go into a much deeper philosophical discussion there Twosugars... Namely, "what is the biological purpose of love".

But that's a bit in depth (and sort of grim / cynical) for a nice sunny afternoon :joker:

[Ant.]

I'm no dog expert but I've read on multiple places that hitting dogs doesn't 'discipline' them

I wouldn't have it in me to hit my dogs anyway

[caprimint]

so how this experiment with parallel threads (kids/dogs) is coming along?
have you identified anybody who thinks like that?
I'm sure there are plenty actually :laugh:

[Kazanne]

Dogs don't have that full understanding though ,children over a certain age do.I am not saying we should smack kids just that if we do they know what its for,Dogs not so much, plus a reactionary slap for running in the road surely hurts less than being run over in the road.

[user104658]

so how this experiment with parallel threads (kids/dogs) is coming along?
have you identified anybody who thinks like that?There actually seem to be a few :joker:. At least LT is consistent...

[Niamh.]

so how this experiment with parallel threads (kids/dogs) is coming along?
have you identified anybody who thinks like that?

Adam, Chuff, Glenn, Nicky, maybe Kizzy but I'm not sure if she was joking or serious in the kids thread and kazanne I'm not sure she wasn't overly clear about the smacking thing in the other thread :think:

[Twosugars]

OK so they they experience something which chemically resembles (the human concept of) love... But then, we could go into a much deeper philosophical discussion there Twosugars... Namely, "what is the biological purpose of love".

But that's a bit in depth (and sort of grim / cynical) for a nice sunny afternoon :joker:

it'd have to be a brand new thread, good topic tho

of course there's a biological purpose to love, but there's also selfless love (I hope)
luckily dogs don't have comprehension of such fine distinctions and love us as best they can
and I'll take this "thoughtless" love, as will you

edit: muddled up my argument so apologies, TS

[Niamh.]

Dogs don't have that full understanding though ,children over a certain age do.I am not saying we should smack kids just that if we do they know what its for,Dogs not so much, plus a reactionary slap for running in the road surely hurts less than being run over in the road.

I don't advocate either but I think in theory if you did slap a dog on the nose as they're doing the thing you don't want them to they would associate it with whatever they'd done but it has to be right when they're doing it. Positive training for dogs of course is much better

[Twosugars]

Adam, Chuff, Glenn, Nicky, maybe Kizzy but I'm not sure if she was joking or serious in the kids thread and kazanne I'm not sure she wasn't overly clear about the smacking thing in the other thread :think:

Nicky? :shocked: Despite being thumped on the head? :worry:

[Niamh.]

Nicky? :shocked: Despite being thumped on the head? :worry:

oh no sorry you're right I wronged Nicky there

[Vicky.]

Bite them back if they bite you.

Our vet told me to do that when Ryu was a pup and we were having issues with bites. I argued that it wouldn't help and was cruel but she insisted its the best way. Not really hard, but hard enough to make him yelp :/

[Kizzy]

Adam, Chuff, Glenn, Nicky, maybe Kizzy but I'm not sure if she was joking or serious in the kids thread and kazanne I'm not sure she wasn't overly clear about the smacking thing in the other thread :think:

Like the kids I have tapped the dog too... And I literally mean a tap on the 'bum' and twice on the shnoz ( for getting into the bin)

[Niamh.]

Like the kids I have tapped the dog too... And I literally mean a tap on the 'bum' and twice on the shnoz ( for getting into the bin)

the kids or the dog? :fan:

[Kizzy]

the kids or the dog? :fan:

both :laugh:

[jaxie]

Well no apart from a little scolding now and then because like hitting children all you would teach them is fear and hitting out. The question should be should owners train their dogs. Absolutely they should with kindness and reward.