Alison Moyet attacked for her womanhood

[jaxie]

http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/trans-activism-is-now-just-misogyny-in-drag/21578#.W0ZeIGgo-2c

I just read this article about trans activists attacking Alison Moyet on Twitter and thought it was quite relevant to discussions we've had here before. I don't know ow anything about the news source, I was attracted the pic of a singer I like but I do agree with a lot the author says and with Moyet's stance that she is a woman and not a cis anything. I thought others might be interested in reading it.

[Marsh.]

We all know where this thread is going to go. [emoji23]

[Underscore]

We all know where this thread is going to go. [emoji23]

welcome to the republican national convention 2020

[Withano]

She is a woman, but so is Kellie Malonie. She is a ciswoman, unlike Kellie Malonie. If she rejects the adjective cis then fine, but its not incredibly descriptive of what kind of woman she is. But thats on her I guess.

[jaxie]

Quite a lot of missing the point in the posts above.

Shocking that those who think self identifying is the way things should be don't seem to be outraged that someone is hounded for stating how she wants to be identified. Maybe there would be more sympathy if she was a man.

[Cherie]

Quite a lot of missing the point in the posts above.

Shocking that those who think self identifying is the way things should be don't seem to be outraged that someone is hounded for stating how she wants to be identified. Maybe there would be more sympathy if she was a man.

it is strange, given the comments following the recent thread about a doctor being sacked for not referring the his patient as the gender they requested, apparantly it is a very fluid issue for some depending on who is involved.

[kirklancaster]

She is a woman, but so is Kellie Malonie. She is a ciswoman, unlike Kellie Malonie. If she rejects the adjective cis then fine, but its not incredibly descriptive of what kind of woman she is. But thats on her I guess.

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: More idiotic 'bullshot with bells on'.

Alison Moyet is a 100% anatomical and physiological woman and has been since birth, **** knows just WHAT 'Kellie' Maloney (NOT Malonie) is now by a 'definition' which conforms to the correct one of a thousand B.S. 'labels' which daft idiots keep inventing for no reason, but 'she' used to be boxing promoter Frank Maloney and he was NEVER a 100% anatomical and physiological woman.

This being a FACT, your statement that; "she is a woman, but so is Kellie Malonie" is pure 'horlicks'.

Incidentally, I find the term 'cis' woman very offensive because it has connotations of disease and if I were to hear anyone so describing my wife or daughter in such a way they would be booking an urgent appointment with their dentist.

[Black Dagger]

Kellie Maloney is a woman though.

[Livia]

Kellie Malonie is a trans-woman. She has no X chromosome, she is not biologically a woman. And I'm tired of men telling me she is the same as me. She is not. She's worth as much... but she is different.

I never have to have this argument with female to male transsexuals. That's because they haven't been men all their lives and still think they can dictate to born women. They can't.

If you want to be a trans female, go for it. Live your life, love who you want and be happy. But don't tell me you're the same as me, because you aren't.

Oh, and furthermore, I am not a ciswoman. I refuse to be defined and pigeonholed by people who're weeping about being pigeonholed themselves. If someone needs a new term, it's not me, because I was born a woman.

[Oliver_W]

Of course it's worth drawing a line between women and transwomen. Transwomen are (biologically) male, women are female. "Cis" women are women, transwomen are transwomen. This doesn't mean they should be mistreated in any way, it just means they're transwomen.

[Marsh.]

Kellie Malonie is a trans-woman. She has no X chromosome, she is not biologically a woman. And I'm tired of men telling me she is the same as me. She is not. She's worth as much... but she is different.

I never have to have this argument with female to male transsexuals. That's because they haven't been men all their lives and still think they can dictate to born women. They can't.

If you want to be a trans female, go for it. Live your life, love who you want and be happy. But don't tell me you're the same as me, because you aren't.

Oh, and furthermore, I am not a ciswoman. I refuse to be defined and pigeonholed by people who're weeping about being pigeonholed themselves. If someone needs a new term, it's not me, because I was born a woman.How many men tell you Kellie Maloney is exactly the same as you?

Not a single one I would imagine.

[Marsh.]

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: More idiotic 'bullshot with bells on'.

Alison Moyet is a 100% anatomical and physiological woman and has been since birth, **** knows just WHAT 'Kellie' Maloney (NOT Malonie) is now by a 'definition' which conforms to the correct one of a thousand B.S. 'labels' which daft idiots keep inventing for no reason, but 'she' used to be boxing promoter Frank Maloney and he was NEVER a 100% anatomical and physiological woman.

This being a FACT, your statement that; "she is a woman, but so is Kellie Malonie" is pure 'horlicks'.

Incidentally, I find the term 'cis' woman very offensive because it has connotations of disease and if I were to hear anyone so describing my wife or daughter in such a way they would be booking an urgent appointment with their dentist.

Connotations of disease?

No it simply means what you said in your first paragraph biologically female and born as such. Transwoman meaning not biologically or born as such.

Whining that "Omg they are not women!!" Then also moaning about the terms that then differentiate between those born as women and those not is so childish and bordering on transphobic.

[Marsh.]

it is strange, given the comments following the recent thread about a doctor being sacked for not referring the his patient as the gender they requested, apparantly it is a very fluid issue for some depending on who is involved.Not really.

That was about gender, this is about sex.
There is a difference between the two.

[Niamh.]

Not really.

That was about gender, this is about sex.
There is a difference between the two.

I think it's this new meaning of the word gender that annoys me most, because it seems to undo alot of the work women have fought for, trying to get themselves out of that stereotypical gender based box by now saying that these boxes are what actually makes us men or women, do you get what I mean? Like as a child, and now as well, but as a young girl growing up with 3 brothers, I fought tooth and nail to not be labelled like that or told what I can or cannot do based on what my interests were or what clothes I chose to wear. I don't know how to explain this without people calling me a bigot or a bad mother or whatever. I don't want to grow up in a world where my daughter thinks unless she becomes a nurse and likes make up she must have a mans brain and it seems like after all the work women have done to try and break down these barriers now we're told no actually get back in your boxes otherwise you're a bigot

[Marsh.]

I think it's this new meaning of the word gender that annoys me most, because it seems to undo alot of the work women have fought for, trying to get themselves out of that stereotypical gender based box by now saying that these boxes are what actually makes us men or women, do you get what I mean? Like as a child, and now as well, but as a young girl growing up with 3 brothers, I fought tooth and nail to not be labelled like that or told what I can or cannot do based on what my interests were or what clothes I chose to wear. I don't know how to explain this without people calling me a bigot or a bad mother or whatever. I don't want to grow up in a world where my daughter thinks unless she becomes a nurse and likes make up she must have a mans brain and it seems like after all the work women have done to try and break down these barriers now we're told no actually get back in your boxes otherwise you're a bigotI don't think it's like that?

Do you mean the genders going back to being stereotypes?

I actually see it as the opposite. Gender becoming more fluid actually breaks down many of the silly "differences" between the two.

However there will always be fundamental differences between genders otherwise there'd be no point between having them both.

Different, however still remaining equal and worth the same.

[Niamh.]

I don't think it's like that?

Do you mean the genders going back to being stereotypes?

I actually see it as the opposite. Gender becoming more fluid actually breaks down many of the silly "differences" between the two.

However there will always be fundamental differences between genders otherwise there'd be no point between having them both.

Different, however still remaining equal and worth the same.

I don't know maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the meaning of gender then but the way I understood it, it seems to come down to which sex based stereotypes you follow? Can you explain it to me then?

[Marsh.]

I don't know maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the meaning of gender then but the way I understood it, it seems to come down to which sex based stereotypes you follow? Can you explain it to me then?Well I might have the wrong end of the stick myself but it's how a person likes to present themselves or be seen.

So a biological male who wants to be a woman but doesn't actually transition. So remains a biological male but prefers the female gender pronouns because that's how they self identify?

[Oliver_W]

The way youtuber Blaire White describes it is that her "internal sense of self" was always female. Like in kindergarten, the teacher would say "girls, go to this side of the room for this game", or whatever, and Little Robbie would nearly go to that side of the room, and then be like "oh, right, I'm a boy"

[Marsh.]

Yeah. It's how you identify yourself rather than what you biologically are.

It's why it's normally described as "a man in a woman's body" or a " woman in a man's body".

[bots]

I have no issues with anyone wanting to be comfortable within themselves and wishing to be referred to as they feel comfortable. I also think that people should try to be respectful of that when interacting them.

I don't think it should be classified as a hate crime when that doesn't happen though, particularly if things aren't obvious as it were. I also think it's completely unnecessary and equally disrespectful to try and force a re-brand on to others using cis or any other descriptor when the people they are referring to consider it disrespectful to them.

[Livia]

How many men tell you Kellie Maloney is exactly the same as you?

Not a single one I would imagine.



Every time one of these arguments comes up I feel obliged to differentiate between a born woman and a transsexual woman with all the biological baggage that entails. We've already heard on this thread that "Kellie Malonie" is a woman. But she's a trans woman. I was born a woman, I don't need to put "cis" or anything else in front of the word woman to differentiate me from her.

[Marsh.]

There is no re-brand.

Nobody's expecting men or women to start calling themselves anything.

It's merely a descriptive word.

[Marsh.]

Every time one of these arguments comes up I feel obliged to differentiate between a born woman and a transsexual woman with all the biological baggage that entails. We've already heard on this thread that "Kellie Malonie" is a woman. But she's a trans woman. I was born a woman, I don't need to put "cis" or anything else in front of the word woman to differentiate me from her.So you're complaining that you want differentiation and then complaining when there's differentiation.

You just want to complain.

[Livia]

I don't think it's like that?

Do you mean the genders going back to being stereotypes?

I actually see it as the opposite. Gender becoming more fluid actually breaks down many of the silly "differences" between the two.

However there will always be fundamental differences between genders otherwise there'd be no point between having them both.

Different, however still remaining equal and worth the same.

A line I've been saying for months, Marshy.

[Marsh.]

A line I've been saying for months, Marshy.I don't recall saying you haven't.

But I'm a man, so what I say matters even less than a transwoman.

That line you bolded was referring to the genders being equal, not trans and biological.

[Livia]

So you're complaining that you want differentiation and then complaining when there's differentiation.

You just want to complain.

No, that's not it at all.

I am not a cis woman. I'm a woman. I don't need anything extra added.

Trans women are the ones that need the descriptor, not me. And yet they are trying to force one on me, and claiming I am trans phobic if I object to that.

[Niamh.]

I don't recall saying you haven't.

But I'm a man, so what I say matters even less than a transwoman.

That line you bolded was referring to the genders being equal, not trans and biological.

Cis-man :oh:

[Livia]

"........... trans activism looks increasingly like misogyny in drag. In the Moyet affair, if we are being honest, we essentially had men telling a woman to shut the **** up. We had men who think they are women, and some of their male allies too, attacking a woman for saying, ‘I am a woman’. That is sexism, pure and simple. That a woman can now be so relentlessly harassed for saying she wants to be referred to as a woman confirms that trans activism’s key achievement has been the diminution of women and the winding back of many of the great gains for women in recent years. Here’s a tip for male-to-female trans-people and their lefty male allies: if you find yourself insulting a woman because she describes herself as a woman, you’ve lost the plot, and you’ve lost the right to call yourself a progressive person."

Quite.

[Kazanne]

I'm sick and bored of all this gender talk,it just gets sillier and sillier a woman is a woman ,a man is a man, one who changes that is a transgender,I am sure most people can understand that,never heard of this word 'cis' are people making them up as they go along?

[Marsh.]

No, that's not it at all.

I am not a cis woman. I'm a woman. I don't need anything extra added.

Trans women are the ones that need the descriptor, not me. And yet they are trying to force one on me, and claiming I am trans phobic if I object to that.You've not had anything extra added. It's a descriptive word.

No different to someone describing you as a tall lady (or short idk). Nobody's asking you to add cis or tall or thin to your passport.

[Marsh.]

Cis-man :oh::worry:

[Marsh.]

I'm sick and bored of all this gender talk,it just gets sillier and sillier a woman is a woman ,a man is a man, one who changes that is a transgender,I am sure most people can understand that,never heard of this word 'cis' are people making them up as they go along?Yes Kaz. Anything you've never heard of must simply be made up. That's how the world works.

[Cherie]

There is no re-brand.

Nobody's expecting men or women to start calling themselves anything.

It's merely a descriptive word.

so Alison Moyet being abused for not wanting to be called Cis is what.....

[Cherie]

Yesterday on another thread straights were told they couldn't understand gay issues, but on this thread we have men knowing what is best :laugh:

[Kazanne]

Yesterday on another thread straights were told they couldn't understand gay issues, but on this thread we have men knowing what is best :laugh:

Nothing really changes does it? :hee:

[Marsh.]

so Alison Moyet being abused for not wanting to be called Cis is what.....Is abuse. That doesn't change what I said.

Alison Moyet getting uppity about a descriptive word is also pathetic. But no that doesn't justify any abuse.

[Marsh.]

Yesterday on another thread straights were told they couldn't understand gay issues, but on this thread we have men knowing what is best [emoji23]Yeah because trans issues are all about women. Nothing to do with men. It's Not an issue that encompasses us all. Women transition into women after all.

Who said men know best?

If you have facts to add or a new idea to throw into the pot then join the discussion.

Or will you just continue to add snide remarks about the posters rather than the actual discussion?

[Tom4784]

I've never liked the term cis. When it comes to trans issues I like to keep things simple. Has the trans person transisitioned yet? If so then I consider them their chosen gender, if not then they are still their birth gender. You can't just decide one day that you are the opposite sex and that everyone has to treat you as such regardless of the state of your transition. I call people what they want to be called but you can't try to make out it's a hate crime if people don't use the right pronouns or disagree. It's underselling what a hate crime is and makes a mockery of all who have been victims of it.

Blurring the lines just lead to messy situations like this one and I think a lot of mtf trans people are letting the trans community down by going on the attack like this. I definitely think there's merit to the accusations of misogyny.

[Cherie]

Is abuse. That doesn't change what I said.

Alison Moyet getting uppity about a descriptive word is also pathetic. But no that doesn't justify any abuse.

It is not getting uppity, it is her choice and she shouldn't have to be abused for it ....cis is a new made up term, nobody has to accept it because some prat somewhere decided it would be best

[Cherie]

Yeah because trans issues are all about women. Nothing to do with men. It's Not an issue that encompasses us all. Women transition into women after all.

Who said men know best?

If you have facts to add or a new idea to throw into the pot then join the discussion.

Or will you just continue to add snide remarks about the posters rather than the actual discussion?

Snide remarks? well you are the expert

[kirklancaster]

Connotations of disease?

No it simply means what you said in your first paragraph biologically female and born as such. Transwoman meaning not biologically or born as such.

Whining that "Omg they are not women!!" Then also moaning about the terms that then differentiate between those born as women and those not is so childish and bordering on transphobic.

Just how you interpret my post as 'whining' and 'moaning' I do not know because I have not feebly complained about bullshot - I have confidently called it out because bullshot it is.

If the 'Transactivists' - on here, or anywhere else - wish to continue to devalue their cause by continuing to perpetuate all this 'labelling' nonsense, then they are free to do so, but WHY must heterosexual women (AND Men for that matter) have to be FORCED by these activists to accept any B.S. labels?

I am a 'Man' and my wife is a 'Woman'. We were born this way and are both perfectly happy to address ourselves as simply 'Man' and 'Woman' and we do not suddenly need any prefix like 'cis' to identify our sex, so 'Transactivists' can shove that little descriptor where the 'sun don't shine'.

Transactivists are the ones demanding evermore labels which further DEFINE themselves - ie; further define the DIFFERENCES they have not only from the rest of us, but also from each other- and that exposes all this B.S. for what it is, and 'what it is' has nothing to do with wanting to be equal and wanting to be treated equally, because it is CLEARLY all to do with wanting to STAND OUT, wanting to be MORE than equal, wanting to be 'SPECIAL'.

Let me say here that Transactivists are in a teeny-weeny MINORITY among the LGBT Community - as are most 'Activists' in the world at large - but because the vast majority are moderate, passive and silent, and the 'Transactivists' are pro-active, aggressive and vociferous, it is the Transactivists who have the floor.

Yet - to a man (and woman) EVERY member of the 'Gay' Community who I speak to (scene and non-Scene) not only do NOT support the 'Transactivists' or their agenda but believe that it is RETROGRESSIVE, not progressive, and is actually harming the LGBT cause.

And yes, call me Homophobe or whatever else is in your predictable 'Stock Response to Disagreement Arsenal' but I will tell you again:

Whatever progress HAS been made over the past 50 years in gaining Equality for the LGBT Community - I have been a part of.

I was a full member of 'The Campaign for Homosexual Equality' and campaigned for Gay Rights when the word 'Homophobic' was not in usage, and I PHYSICALLY fought alongside Gays and Lesbians AGAINST 'Gay Bashers' in several city centres from Manchester to London.

So carry on, you will not close me down - unlike poor Alison Moyet.

[Niamh.]

I've never liked the term cis, when it comes to trans issues I like to keep things simple. Has the trans person transisitioned yet? If so then I consider them their chosen gender, if not then they are still their birth gender. You can't just decide one day that you are the opposite sex and that everyone has to treat you as such regardless of the state of your transition. I call people what they want to be called but you can't try to make out it's a hate crime if people don't use the right pronouns or disagree. It's underselling what a hate crime is and makes a mockery of all who have been victims of it.

Blurring the lines just lead to messy situations like this one and I think a lot of mtf trans people are letting the trans community down by going on the attack like this. I definitely think there's merit to the accusations of misogyny.

Yup, totally agree. Also, just to point out Marsh, i think it's women (and why its more so women) who have a problem with the word "cis" is because it seems to be used as a way to insult women in discussions about this subject, it's become associated with insulting women (not men which is why it's women who object to it) I understand why you're saying but it's a descriptor etc but lets be real here that isn't how it's being used 90% of the times I've ever read it or heard it. Infact I first heard the word in some insulting post

[Marsh.]

It is not getting uppity, it is her choice and she shouldn't have to be abused for it ....cis is a new made up term, nobody has to accept it because some prat somewhere decided it would be bestI never said she should get abused.

But I also want to see her campaigning to have every unique identifier and descriptive word used to differentiate people stopped tol otherwise she's a big old hypocrite.

[Marsh.]

Snide remarks? well you are the expertOk Cherie.

[Marsh.]

Just how you interpret my post as 'whining' and 'moaning' I do not know because I have not feebly complained about bullshot - I have confidently called it out because bullshot it is.

If the 'Transactivists' - on here, or anywhere else - wish to continue to devalue their cause by continuing to perpetuate all this 'labelling' nonsense, then they are free to do so, but WHY must heterosexual women (AND Men for that matter) have to be FORCED by these activists to accept any B.S. labels?

I am a 'Man' and my wife is a 'Woman'. We were born this way and are both perfectly happy to address ourselves as simply 'Man' and 'Woman' and we do not suddenly need any prefix like 'cis' to identify our sex, so 'Transactivists' can shove that little descriptor where the 'sun don't shine'.

Transactivists are the ones demanding evermore labels which further DEFINE themselves - ie; further define the DIFFERENCES they have not only from the rest of us, but also from each other- and that exposes all this B.S. for what it is, and 'what it is' has nothing to do with wanting to be equal and wanting to be treated equally, because it is CLEARLY all to do with wanting to STAND OUT, wanting to be MORE than equal, wanting to be 'SPECIAL'.

Let me say here that Transactivists are in a teeny-weeny MINORITY among the LGBT Community - as are most 'Activists' in the world at large - but because the vast majority are moderate, passive and silent, and the 'Transactivists' are pro-active, aggressive and vociferous, it is the Transactivists who have the floor.

Yet - to a man (and woman) EVERY member of the 'Gay' Community who I speak to (scene and non-Scene) not only do NOT support the 'Transactivists' or their agenda but believe that it is RETROGRESSIVE, not progressive, and is actually harming the LGBT cause.

And yes, call me Homophobe or whatever else is in your predictable 'Stock Response to Disagreement Arsenal' but I will tell you again:

Whatever progress HAS been made over the past 50 years in gaining Equality for the LGBT Community - I have been a part of.

I was a full member of 'The Campaign for Homosexual Equality' and campaigned for Gay Rights when the word 'Homophobic' was not in usage, and I PHYSICALLY fought alongside Gays and Lesbians AGAINST 'Gay Bashers' in several city centres from Manchester to London.

So carry on, you will not close me down - unlike poor Alison Moyet.I respond to this with the same words as my first post. Nothing has changed.

[Kazanne]

Yes Kaz. Anything you've never heard of must simply be made up. That's how the world works.

Never heard of it till I came on here, you learn something everyday.

[Marsh.]

Yup, totally agree. Also, just to point out Marsh, i think it's women (and why its more so women) who have a problem with the word "cis" is because it seems to be used as a way to insult women in discussions about this subject, it's become associated with insulting women (not men which is why it's women who object to it) I understand why you're saying but it's a descriptor etc but lets be real here that isn't how it's being used 90% of the times I've ever read it or heard it. Infact I first heard the word in some insulting postThat's fair enough for you to share that viewpoint from your perspective and experiences and is just as valid as anyone else's.

I won't be shut down however by the minority who come in here not to add anything of their own to the conversation but to rant about them blokes having an opinion.

[smudgie]

As a woman with a womb, I am quite happy to call someone transitioned a women.
We are all woman, just biologically different and that will never change.
No need for any labels. Far too much labelling of us all to start with.:fist:

My decorator is a lesbian, I no more call her my lesbian decorator than I would call someone straight my straight decorator...they are my chuffing decorator.

[Marsh.]

As a woman with a womb, I am quite happy to call someone transitioned a women.
We are all woman, just biologically different and that will never change.
No need for any labels. Far too much labelling of us all to start with.:fist:

My decorator is a lesbian, I no more call her my lesbian decorator than I would call someone straight my straight decorator...they are my chuffing decorator.True. But if you were having a conversation about sexuality, it might be mentioned that she is a lesbian either by herself or someone talking about her.

That's the only difference Smudgie I feel.

Yes, there are activists who take it too far, just as there are others who take it too far as we have seen. But people are getting irate over words people use to describe.

Nobody's being rebranded or repackaged.

[Vicky.]

I actually watched this unfold in real time. There were the usual death threats, rape threats, insults on her appearance, insults about her son...etc. All because she dared to not go allong with some bull**** word than MRAs (sorry, transactivists..but same thing) made up to try and stick women back in their box. Same story every time. A woman says no, the abuse comes. Its shocking, but so prectable.

I find it very interesting how a group of people who cry on about not having the 'right' pronouns and such applied to them, refuse to describe others accurately and have proper meltdowns when someone says 'hold up, I amnot cis, I am not a walking stereotype'. Its because the only way they can be special is to assume everyne else is cis, when really..going on current labels, near ever person alive is 'non binary'. Oh, and men do not get abuse for refusing to be labelled cis. Mind, men rarely get labelled it in the first place...its always women. And yeah, its usually as an insult.

[Cherie]

I actually watched this unfold in real time. Ther were the usual deatn threats, rape threats, insults on her appearance, insults about her son...etc. All because she dared to not go allong wit some bull**** word than MRAs (sorry, transactivists..but same thing) made up to try and stick women back in their box. Same story every time. A woman says no, the abuse comes. Its shocking, but so prectable.

yet


Nobody's being rebranded or repackaged.


but if you don't go along with it expect the above...

[Niamh.]

yet


Nobody's being rebranded or repackaged.


but if you don't go along with it expect the above...

It just seems different rules apply, like a man can say I'm not a man I'm a woman call me that and if you don't you're a bigot but on the flipside if a woman says I'm not a cis woman, I'm a woman call me that she's still a bigot. It seems to be a case of follow all my rules and do as I say or else you'll get abused and threatened........Sure June :hee:

[Vicky.]

Wlel its just abusive narcisistic men being abusive narcisistic men tbh. God forbid any woman dares say no to their demands. My skin has been hardened so much since startying to talk about this issue online, I actually get daily threats and that now...but the first time the bombardment happens, it can be scary as **** which is why a lot of people actually leave twitter or whatever over it.

I still don't use my own name to talk about stuff though, ever since I was put on a list of people to be doxxed and started getting threats that they would find my children. So I use a fake name, to talk about issues that actually affect me, as I am too ****ing scare to use my own name! Its pathetic really. But their behaviour is horrendous. They actually are worse than incels or the worst red pillers...mainly becase I think they are a mixof the two who have found a 'right on' cause to attach themelves to.

[Cherie]

It just seems different rules apply, like a man can say I'm not a man I'm a woman call me that and if you don't you're a bigot but on the flipside if a woman says I'm not a cis woman, I'm a woman call me that she's still a bigot. It seems to be a case of follow all my rules and do as I say or else you'll get abused and threatened........Sure June :hee:

its ridiculous, females transition to male all the time, where is the rebrand for men born as men

[jaxie]

Is abuse. That doesn't change what I said.

Alison Moyet getting uppity about a descriptive word is also pathetic. But no that doesn't justify any abuse.

And aren't you also getting uppity because women dare to object to having a word tacked on to woman? Perhaps you and Alison have more in common than you thought.

[jaxie]

I've never liked the term cis. When it comes to trans issues I like to keep things simple. Has the trans person transisitioned yet? If so then I consider them their chosen gender, if not then they are still their birth gender. You can't just decide one day that you are the opposite sex and that everyone has to treat you as such regardless of the state of your transition. I call people what they want to be called but you can't try to make out it's a hate crime if people don't use the right pronouns or disagree. It's underselling what a hate crime is and makes a mockery of all who have been victims of it.

Blurring the lines just lead to messy situations like this one and I think a lot of mtf trans people are letting the trans community down by going on the attack like this. I definitely think there's merit to the accusations of misogyny.

Well said Dezzy. We agree, let's have cake.

[Kizzy]

You cannot inflict change on someone/ group and not expect a backlash... Women have fought long and hard for rights over hundreds of years and it is a slow continual process, so why would another marginalised group choose to dictate a premis for women...
I 100% understand the backlash, for generations it has been a hard slog to shed stereotypes and labels and yet for some reason be expected to meekly don another?

I appreciate it's marketed as a descriptor, but I for one don't want it... I have one, I'm a woman. To be abused for not accepting a term applied is repressive and smacks of age old suppression, that's why there is a furious kick back from women.

[Niamh.]

Kizzy do you watch The Handmaids Tale? This topic reminds me of it in certain ways

[Kizzy]

Kizzy do you watch The Handmaids Tale? This topic reminds me of it in certain ways

No but it looks really interesting I might start, it sticks in my craw how there is this really insidious and frankly sinister reaction to the objection... why would any group who themselves have fought against labels want to afflict them on another?

It won't work, there will be those for even that is a reason to abuse a woman, like you say it identifies her not only as a woman but a breeder... That's enough to cause a division.

As you rightly point out too where are the cismen?......I see no discussion on this, why?

[Niamh.]

No but it looks really interesting I might start, it sticks in my craw how there is this really insidious and frankly sinister reaction to the objection... why would any group who themselves have fought against labels want to afflict them on another?

It won't work, there will be those for even that is a reason to abuse a woman, like you say it identifies her not only as a woman but a breeder... That's enough to cause a division.

As you rightly point out too where are the cismen?......I see no discussion on this, why?

I think we all know why........

But yeah watch The Handmaids Tale I think you'll love it

[jaxie]

I think we all know why........

But yeah watch The Handmaids Tale I think you'll love it

Handmaid's tale is a fantastic but terrifying show. For me Serena Joy is almost worse than her husband in her attempts to dehumanise June.

[Cherie]

It's interesting given the thread we had yesterday about only one group having struggles in 2018, they might be the most vocal but certainly not the only group

[Cherie]

Handmaid's tale is a fantastic but terrifying show. For me Serena Joy is almost worse than her husband in her attempts to dehumanise June.

I haven't watched the second series yet, not sure what to expect, the first was so true to the book and ended when the book ended

[Niamh.]

Handmaid's tale is a fantastic but terrifying show. For me Serena Joy is almost worse than her husband in her attempts to dehumanise June.

How far in are you with it?

It's so terrifying because I definitely find myself thinking alot, this **** could actually happen, it really isn't that far fetched at all, I was saying that to Vicky and she told me that apparently the author had made sure when writing the book to only use things that had actually happened to women at some point in our history.....

[Niamh.]

I haven't watched the second series yet, not sure what to expect, the first was so true to the book and ended when the book ended

Just finished S02 and it's excellent

[Marsh.]

Oh come off it.

Non-trans being referred to as cis is like the Handmaiden's Tale? :laugh2:

Cis refers to men too. The Butler's Tale?

[Niamh.]

Oh come off it.

Non-trans being referred to as cis is like the Handmaiden's Tale? :laugh2:

Not at all Ofmarsh

[Marsh.]

Not at all Ofmarsh:joker:

Watch it Ofgavin!

[Marsh.]

Back to this specific incident itself with Moyet.

It seems she wasn't having any words or titles or pronouns forced onto her.

She came out and commented on the word cis for no reason at all.

[Marsh.]

It's interesting given the thread we had yesterday about only one group having struggles in 2018, they might be the most vocal but certainly not the only groupNobody ever said they were.

[Marsh.]

No but it looks really interesting I might start, it sticks in my craw how there is this really insidious and frankly sinister reaction to the objection... why would any group who themselves have fought against labels want to afflict them on another?

It won't work, there will be those for even that is a reason to abuse a woman, like you say it identifies her not only as a woman but a breeder... That's enough to cause a division.

As you rightly point out too where are the cismen?......I see no discussion on this, why?

Cismen? They're not permitted an opinion on the matter. Cis only refers to women even though it doesn't etc.

[jaxie]

How far in are you with it?

It's so terrifying because I definitely find myself thinking alot, this **** could actually happen, it really isn't that far fetched at all, I was saying that to Vicky and she told me that apparently the author had made sure when writing the book to only use things that had actually happened to women at some point in our history.....

I'm up to episode 10 of series 2. I was unsure about series 2 going in but I think they've done a fantastic job. It is terrifying because it is close to reality and in fact is a sort of idealism that is often preached by religious groups. I find how the wives go along with it all to steal other women's babies particularly sinister though I have a personal theory that Serena Joy might end up helping June escape because she is guilt riddled.

[jaxie]

I haven't watched the second series yet, not sure what to expect, the first was so true to the book and ended when the book ended

I was worried the second series would be too manufactured because the book ended with series one but I think series two is even better.

[Niamh.]

I'm up to episode 10 of series 2. I was unsure about series 2 going in but I think they've done a fantastic job. It is terrifying because it is close to reality and in fact is a sort of idealism that is often preached by religious groups. I find how the wives go along with it all to steal other women's babies particularly sinister though I have a personal theory that Serena Joy might end up helping June escape because she is guilt riddled.

I just watched the finale, so when you're up to date go in the thread in the TV section and we'll discuss it. Under His Eye.

[jaxie]

I just watched the finale, so when you're up to date go in the thread in the TV section and we'll discuss it. Under His Eye.

May the Lord open!

I'll see you there. :laugh: I've been watching with my son but the football sidetracked things a bit. Hoping to catch up this week/weekend. We like a lot of the same TV, Mr Jaxie can't sit still long enough to watch with us. We like to binge watch.

[Withano]

:laugh2::laugh2::laugh2: More idiotic 'bullshot with bells on'.

Alison Moyet is a 100% anatomical and physiological woman and has been since birth, **** knows just WHAT 'Kellie' Maloney (NOT Malonie) is now by a 'definition' which conforms to the correct one of a thousand B.S. 'labels' which daft idiots keep inventing for no reason, but 'she' used to be boxing promoter Frank Maloney and he was NEVER a 100% anatomical and physiological woman.

This being a FACT, your statement that; "she is a woman, but so is Kellie Malonie" is pure 'horlicks'.

Incidentally, I find the term 'cis' woman very offensive because it has connotations of disease and if I were to hear anyone so describing my wife or daughter in such a way they would be booking an urgent appointment with their dentist.

Right. But that means she is a cis woman. That is the factual and accurate way to describe a woman like this.

If she rejects the term cis, then thats up to her in the same way that a transwoman may reject the term trans.. it doesnt stop it being factually accurate, but i guess its up to each person.

[Withano]

No, that's not it at all.

I am not a cis woman. I'm a woman. I don't need anything extra added.

Trans women are the ones that need the descriptor, not me. And yet they are trying to force one on me, and claiming I am trans phobic if I object to that.
You are a woman, you can identify that way

You are literally a ciswoman too, in a literal and factual sense, but if you reject the adjective that separates you from transwomen then don’t use it.

Cismen are men born as male
Transmen are those that change in to males later in life
Men are both cismen and transmen

Its just the way these words work - you are literally a woman and a ciswoman. And there’s not much you can do about that. Kellie Maloney is literally a woman and a transwoman, and theres not much she can do about that either.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I just dont think this cis thing is going to catch on outside tibb tbh

[Cherie]

What a load of old bollox,litterally

bolloxio

[Cherie]

You are a woman, you can identify that way

You are literally a ciswoman too, in a literal and factual sense, but if you reject the adjective that separates you from transwomen then don’t use it.

Cismen are men born as male
Transmen are those that change in to males later in life
Men are both cismen and transmen

Its just the way these words work - you are literally a woman and a ciswoman. And there’s not much you can do about that. Kellie Maloney is literally a woman and a transwoman, and theres not much she can do about that either.

don't use it and be abused, fantastic progressive world we live in isn't it

[bots]

You are a woman, you can identify that way

You are literally a ciswoman too, in a literal and factual sense, but if you reject the adjective that separates you from transwomen then don’t use it.

Cismen are men born as male
Transmen are those that change in to males later in life
Men are both cismen and transmen

Its just the way these words work - you are literally a woman and a ciswoman. And there’s not much you can do about that. Kellie Maloney is literally a woman and a transwoman, and theres not much she can do about that either.

That is factually incorrect. Applying the same level of respect a trans person wishes to be labelled a particular way, the opposite is also true. It is up to people to respect the wishes of who they are addressing. If a woman doesn't wish to be labelled cis, then that term should not be used when interacting with her.

[Withano]

That is factually incorrect. Applying the same level of respect a trans person wishes to be labelled a particular way, the opposite is also true. It is up to people to respect the wishes of who they are addressing. If a woman doesn't wish to be labelled cis, then that term should not be used when interacting with her.

I agree.. and if a transwoman doesnt want to be labelled trans and also just want to be referred to as a ‘woman’ that should be respected too.

Both are examples of people ignoring facts, but its up to them, it doesnt explain which kind of woman they are, but maybe some people don’t care and thats up to them, sure.

[Kizzy]

Back to this specific incident itself with Moyet.

It seems she wasn't having any words or titles or pronouns forced onto her.

She came out and commented on the word cis for no reason at all.

No reason... Is being affected as a woman not reason enough?

I agree with her I won't be having any prefixes forced on me either.

[Kizzy]

Tea break at the knitting club?

isn't it strange you suggesting people be respectful....while being so disrespectful :/

[Kizzy]

You are a woman, you can identify that way

You are literally a ciswoman too, in a literal and factual sense, but if you reject the adjective that separates you from transwomen then don’t use it.

Cismen are men born as male
Transmen are those that change in to males later in life
Men are both cismen and transmen

Its just the way these words work - you are literally a woman and a ciswoman. And there’s not much you can do about that. Kellie Maloney is literally a woman and a transwoman, and theres not much she can do about that either.

It's not a fact... it's a nonsense word, like PC.
I am a woman, that is factually and literally what I am, because someone invented a term a few months ago that does NOT redefine me!

[Withano]

It's not a fact... it's a nonsense word, like PC.
I am a woman, that is factually and literally what I am, because someone invented a term a few months ago that does NOT redefine me!

She is a woman, but so is Kellie Malonie. She is a ciswoman, unlike Kellie Malonie. If she rejects the adjective cis then fine, but its not incredibly descriptive of what kind of woman she is. But thats on her I guess.

I’m aware you’re a woman, I’d be annoyed if anybody told you that you wasn’t, that hasn’t happened.

[Marsh.]

No reason... Is being affected as a woman not reason enough?

The word "cis" is affecting her as a woman?

Does she hit the roof when she's described as a singer or, god forbid, brunette woman? :omgno:

[Marsh.]

isn't it strange you suggesting people be respectful....while being so disrespectful :/

Well, I had an on topic post responded to with a glib comment so gave one back.

So, all things considered I don't care to be respectful to disrespectful people. Respect is earned.

[Kizzy]

I’m aware you’re a woman, I’d be annoyed if anybody told you that you wasn’t, that hasn’t happened.



why can the 'cis' not be applied to people who are not born women instead of are?...


If it's just a descriptor then it shouldn't be an issue should it?

[Marsh.]

why can the 'cis' not be applied to people who are not born women instead of are?...

Because they are "trans"...

Again, the word "cis" isn't referring to women, or taking the word women away from women. It simply means you were born the sex and gender you are. There are cis men too, not just cis women.

[Withano]

why can the 'cis' not be applied to people who are not born women instead of are?...


If it's just a descriptor then it shouldn't be an issue should it?

Because cis literally means ‘the same side of’
And trans literally means ‘the opposite side of’

[Alf]

Because cis literally means ‘the same side of’
And trans literally means ‘the opposite side of’No it doesn't, trans is just short for the word transition.

[Kizzy]

Because cis literally means ‘the same side of’
And trans literally means ‘the opposite side of’

But what does it matter? In what universe do you introduce people as kelly who was born a man lizzy who was born a woman?
That is essentially what this does.

[Marsh.]

But what does it matter? In what universe do you introduce people as kelly who was born a man lizzy who was born a woman?
That is essentially what this does.

But nobody's suggesting we use these words to introduce ourselves.

It's no different to me pointing across the room to say "That's Kizzy, the tall brunette lady!". You are a woman, in a relevant conversation about sex and sexuality you would be a "cis woman", just as you would be a "straight woman".

[Withano]

No it doesn't, trans is just short for the word transition.

The prefix ‘trans’ means to cross, go over, or the opposite side of.
The prefix ‘cis’ means the same side of

I feel like now we’re just being angry that language exists.

[Withano]

But what does it matter? In what universe do you introduce people as kelly who was born a man lizzy who was born a woman?
That is essentially what this does.

Nobody does this lol.

It is a descriptor that can quickly explain that you are a woman that was born a woman should you ever have need for that.

I’ve never had to describe myself as a cismale, but I’m aware that I am one.

[Oliver_W]

Nobody does this lol.

It is a descriptor that can quickly explain that you are a woman that was born a woman should you ever have need for that.

I’ve never had to describe myself as a cismale, but I’m aware that I am one.

There's no need for an additional descriptor for biological women, because transwomen have the thing that separates them in their name.

[Marsh.]

There's no need for an additional descriptor for biological women, because transwomen have the thing that separates them in their name.

And "gay" or "homosexual" have the separation in their name.

No need for "straight" or "heterosexual" right?

[Withano]

There's no need for an additional descriptor for biological women, because transwomen have the thing that separates them in their name.

There is though because the word ‘woman’ and the word ‘man’ refers to both cis’ and trans people.

Ie Luke A and Luke S are both men, if you needed to talk about their differences youd make a mess of it referring to Luke S as a man, as Luke A is too

However Luke S is a cisman, and Luke A is not

(I realised after writing this that Luke S probably made for an overly-confusing example)

Luke S is a man and a cisman
Luke A is a man and a transman

[Oliver_W]

And "gay" or "homosexual" have the separation in their name.

No need for "straight" or "heterosexual" right?
Sexualities are: straight, homosexual, bisexual.
Genders are: man, woman, transwoman, transman.

[Alf]

The prefix ‘trans’ means to cross, go over, or the opposite side of.
The prefix ‘cis’ means the same side of

I feel like now we’re just being angry that language exists.There is only, and will only ever be two genders, male and female, that's reality. In fantasy, you can be whatever you want.

You're free to live your life in a World of fantasy if you wish, but when you start to believe fantasies are realities, and demanding people to also accept your fantasies as realities, then you're gonna get opposed.

[Kizzy]

But nobody's suggesting we use these words to introduce ourselves.

It's no different to me pointing across the room to say "That's Kizzy, the tall brunette lady!". You are a woman, in a relevant conversation about sex and sexuality you would be a "cis woman", just as you would be a "straight woman".

But if I'm not a trans woman what else would I be?.....

Just a woman! There is nothing else :/

[Marsh.]

But if I'm not a trans woman what else would I be?.....

Just a woman! There is nothing else :/

Nothing else? Nothing at all? Not even a guess?

Nothing like trying to debate a topic you're not very clued up on is there. :laugh:

[Withano]

There is only, and will only ever be two genders, male and female, that's reality. In fantasy, you can be whatever you want.

You're free to live your life in a World of fantasy if you wish, but when you start to believe fantasies are realities, and demanding people to also accept your fantasies as realities, then you're gonna get opposed.

I honestly do not see how this is relevant to any conversation anybody has had on this entire thread. Especially the conversation we was having there, so idk why you quoted me in that.

[Marsh.]

There is only, and will only ever be two genders, male and female, that's reality. In fantasy, you can be whatever you want.

You're free to live your life in a World of fantasy if you wish, but when you start to believe fantasies are realities, and demanding people to also accept your fantasies as realities, then you're gonna get opposed.

You do know sex and gender aren't the same thing?

[Alf]

You do know sex and gender aren't the same thing?Yeah, sex is the reality, gender is the fantasy.

[Marsh.]

Oh, he's creating his own discussion. :thumbs:

[Alf]

Oh, he's creating his own discussion. :thumbs:On a forum of all places, the very thought of it.

[Oliver_W]

The sexes are male and female; male is split into men and transwomen, female is split into women and transmen.

[Northern Monkey]

Cis women are women too :fist:

Seriously though,I’ve never heard this word used in a real life conversation.

I’d bet it never gets used outside some ‘gender studies’ uni class and on the internet or TV shows that are trying to look all hip.

[Kizzy]

Nothing else? Nothing at all? Not even a guess?

Nothing like trying to debate a topic you're not very clued up on is there. :laugh:

look at you mocking again...

You are an expert as a man obviously? Busy mansplaining how women should react on any given topic but specifically how women should react to being labeled, as we see here.

should kelly and I be stood together during your hypothetical discussion and she identifies as a trans woman and I as a woman, as opposed to a trans woman, does that not signal that I was in fact born a woman as opposed to a man?

[Withano]

look at you mocking again...

You are an expert as a man obviously? Busy mansplaining how women should react on any given topic but specifically how women should react to being labeled, as we see here.

should kelly and I be stood together during your hypothetical discussion and she identifies as a trans woman and I as a woman, as opposed to a trans woman, does that not signal that I was in fact born a woman as opposed to a man?

No, because she is a woman and a transwoman
And you are a woman and a ciswoman

Kellys transfriend Jane may identify as woman, but if I wanted to talk about Kelly and Jane and not you, I would have to use the word trans, and if I wanted to talk about you and not Jane or Kelly, I would have to use the word cis. (Regarding its a discussion directly relating to genders as a group).

Its just a helpful little prefix that separates you from Jane should we need to use it.

[Marsh.]

look at you mocking again...

What else do you expect when you come out with that?


You are an expert as a man obviously? Busy mansplaining how women should react on any given topic but specifically how women should react to being labeled, as we see here.

Cherie already beat you to the misandry there.

I've not told anyone how to react. I'm explaining (that's EXplaining) where they're reacting to something they've completely misunderstood, not understood or don't get at all. I mean most people reacting negatively are actually saying "cis" is a "made up word" so, is it sexist of me to point out that is incorrect? Am I not allowed to point that out because I've got a penis?

But painting it as you being victimised by the big bad patriarchy and distracting the discussion to men telling women how to live is doing wonders for feminism. :thumbs: But you do you.

[Alf]

The sexes are male and female; male is split into men and transwomen, female is split into women and transmen.But if a man has transitioned to a woman or vice versa, then why does the word trans need to be used? surely they are now either just a man or a woman? The trans part doesn't need to be added, that was just the process of changing sex.

[Oliver_W]

But if a man has transitioned to a woman or vice versa, then why does the word trans need to be used? surely they are now either just a man or a woman? The trans part doesn't need to be added, that was just the process of changing sex.

Nope, if someone transitions, they are a transwoman or transman. Respect their pronouns and treat them right, but they're still biologically their birth sex and always will be.

as long as those pronouns are he or she, not any of the ridiculous ones.

[Marsh.]

But if a man has transitioned to a woman or vice versa, then why does the word trans need to be used? surely they are now either just a man or a woman? The trans part doesn't need to be added, that was just the process of changing sex.

But, then people who were born as women don't like having the same identifier as someone who wasn't born that way and doesn't have the history and the "baggage" of it.

Basically, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't.

[Withano]

But if a man has transitioned to a woman or vice versa, then why does the word trans need to be used? surely they are now either just a man or a woman? The trans part doesn't need to be added, that was just the process of changing sex.

It doesn’t need to be added, I would sooner call Luke A a man than a transman, and I’d sooner call Luke S a man than a cisman.. and I think the majority of the country would too.

But sometimes situations will arise where people may need or want to talk about men who have transistioned from females and the word ‘man’ on its own would not be helpful in that scenario... and vice versa.

[Marsh.]

Exactly. Just the same as straight, gay and bisexual only come out when needing to differentiate. Otherwise, they're all just people.

[Kizzy]

No, because she is a woman and a transwoman
And you are a woman and a ciswoman

Kellys transfriend Jane may identify as woman, but if I wanted to talk about Kelly and Jane and not you, I would have to use the word trans, and if I wanted to talk about you and not Jane or Kelly, I would have to use the word cis. (Regarding its a discussion directly relating to genders as a group).

Its just a helpful little prefix that separates you from Jane should we need to use it.

Trans as you stated means you were previously something other.... A woman wasn't, ergo if you are not a trans woman you are simply a woman. there is no need for any prefix

[Withano]

Trans as you stated means you were previously something other.... A woman wasn't, ergo if you are not a trans woman you are simply a woman. there is no need for any prefix

Well if you read the bit you bolded properly, you’d see the flaw in that logic

[Oliver_W]

Kellie Maloney is male,but a transwoman.
Kizzy is female, and a woman.

[Withano]

Kellie Maloney is male,but a transwoman.
Kizzy is female, and a woman.

Wrong, but that is helpful, I was wondering why we were going around in circles.

[Marsh.]

Kellie Maloney is male

Not quite, but I'd have to ask Kellie.

[Alf]

Kellie Maloney is male,but a transwoman.
Kizzy is female, and a woman.Has Kellie had a full transition? change of genitalia is what I mean and what ever hormone things they take?

The Kellie in Big Brother as far as I was concerned was just a cross-dresser.

[Marsh.]

Has Kellie had a full transition? change of genitalia is what I mean and what ever hormone things they take?

The Kellie in Big Brother as far as I was concerned was just a cross-dresser.

She was pre-op in CBB. She transitioned after the show.

[Oliver_W]

Not quite, but I'd have to ask Kellie.
Explain?
Wrong, but that is helpful, I was wondering why we were going around in circles.
Explain?
Has Kellie had a full transition? change of genitalia is what I mean and what ever hormone things they take?
Makes no difference, you can't change your biological sex, even if your penis is inverted.

[Withano]

Explain?

Explain?

Makes no difference, you can't change your biological sex, even if your penis is inverted.

Biological sex isn’t at all relevant to a transpersons gender or current sex, so it is a beyond-stupid way to determine a label for somebody. Fortunately I don’t know anybody who does this apart from you lol.

[Oliver_W]

Biological sex isn’t at all relevant to a transpersons gender or current sex, so it is a beyond-stupid way to determine a label for somebody. Fortunately I don’t know anybody who does this apart from you lol.

Their current sex is their birth sex. And it is relevant in a medical sense - a transwoman will still have her prostate checked, and be recommended to check her nuts if they're still there. But in a social sense, it shouldn't be relevant.

[Withano]

Their current sex is their birth sex. And it is relevant in a medical sense - a transwoman will still have her prostate checked, and be recommended to check her nuts if they're still there. But in a social sense, it shouldn't be relevant.

So you want to refer to Kellie as a male because she gets her prostate checked during medical exams. Ok Oliver.

[Oliver_W]

So you want to refer to Kellie as a male because she gets her prostate checked during medical exams. Ok Oliver.

She is biologically, yes. But she's a transwoman, so she'll get her breasts checked too.

[Marsh.]

I'm so glad we're discussing Kellie Maloney's physical examinations.

[Withano]

She is biologically, yes. But she's a transwoman, so she'll get her breasts checked too.

Biological sex isn’t at all relevant to a transpersons gender or current sex, so it is a beyond-stupid way to determine a label for somebody. Fortunately I don’t know anybody who does this apart from you lol.

Yes, I understand your incoherent thought process somehow, i dont care for it, it will never be helpful in these discussions

[Oliver_W]

Yes, I understand your incoherent thought process somehow, i dont care for it, it will never be helpful in these discussions

And what is your "thought" process?

[Withano]

And what is your "thought" process?

...I’ve been pretty vocal in this thread, you can read through it.

I don't think our discussion can go much further though, I understand why you wouldnt need to use the word ‘cis’ with a thought process like yours..

it’s not really relevant to any real life situation though, and I dont really fancy discussing a hypothetical scenario based on the idea that other people use pronouns the way that you do, because they do not.

[Oliver_W]

...I’ve been pretty vocal in this thread, you can read through it.

I don't think our discussion can go much further though, I understand why you wouldnt need to use the word ‘cis’ with a thought process like yours..

it’s not really relevant to any real life situation though, and I dont really fancy discussing a hypothetical scenario based on the idea that other people use pronouns the way that you do, because they do not.

my thought process is just that your biological sex is defined at birth, and there's a difference between women and transwomen. I really don't see what's wrong with that, all I've heard in opposition is "transwomen are women!!11"

[Cherie]

Pot, kettle.

Patronising mysogyny that love when used to put a woman in her place. You aren't doing much in support of transgender people while practising casual sexism. You must be so proud.

.

The gist I am getting is we are happy to be called cis men ergo everyone else must follow our lead...I am not a sheep and neither are most people on this thread

oh and by the way you can just call yourself a woman but expect to be abused for it, but just suck that one up love

[Withano]

.

The gist I am getting is we are happy to be called cis men ergo everyone else must follow our lead...I am not a sheep and neither are most people on this thread

oh and by the way you can just call yourself a woman but expect to be abused for it, but just suck that one up love

I mean. Even if I didn't want to be called cismale, I would still be a cismale because I don't get to dictate the definitions of words.

[bots]

I mean. Even if I didn't want to be called cismale, I would still be a cismale because I don't get to dictate the definitions of words.

but its only a definition recently introduced by a minority group and therefore is meaningless in terms of its general applicability.

Let's take the whole thing to its logical conclusion. If the majority of men/women have to start puting cis before everthing then those transitioned will still not be able to assign that label to themselves and so will be seen as an excluded group again ... it just makes zero logical sense

[Niamh.]

but its only a definition recently introduced by a minority group and therefore is meaningless in terms of its general applicability.

Let's take the whole thing to its logical conclusion. If the majority of men/women have to start puting cis before everthing then those transitioned will still not be able to assign that label to themselves and so will be seen as an excluded group again ... it just makes zero logical sense

And just to add once again, the only time I've seen the word "cis" used besides on discussions here has been in a negative way which is why so many women (because it's pretty much always transgender women using it to insult women) are against it being used to describe them. The lack of understanding from where women are coming from here is a bit disappointing tbqh.

[Cherie]

And just to add once again, the only time I've seen the word "cis" used besides on discussions here has been in a negative way which is why so many women (because it's pretty much always transgender women using it to insult women) are against it being used to describe them. The lack of understanding from where women are coming from here is a bit disappointing tbqh.




Not really unexpected in my view, the so called all encompassing, inclusive enlighted generation only want to extend to these qualities to certain sections of society, there is zero empathy for anyone who doesn't agree with their view or very little inclination to understand an alternative view. I have no issue with transitioned men being called women but I am damned if I will adopt a prefix to describe myself because a trans person wants me to.

[bots]

And just to add once again, the only time I've seen the word "cis" used besides on discussions here has been in a negative way which is why so many women (because it's pretty much always transgender women using it to insult women) are against it being used to describe them. The lack of understanding from where women are coming from here is a bit disappointing tbqh.

in fact, i would argue that forcing a majority to indicate clearly they are of a particular type increases the discriminatory affect on the minority group, rather than normalising things

[jaxie]

.

The gist I am getting is we are happy to be called cis men ergo everyone else must follow our lead...I am not a sheep and neither are most people on this thread

oh and by the way you can just call yourself a woman but expect to be abused for it, but just suck that one up love

I think your gist is spot on. What glares at me in these threads is how out of touch some men really are with equality. They think they are being trendy and standing up for the oppressed while at the same time stamping on the gender that has been oppressed for generations.

[jaxie]

I mean. Even if I didn't want to be called cismale, I would still be a cismale because I don't get to dictate the definitions of words.

The word cis was made up as a terminology by a biologist in 1996. Get over it and grow a clue. I've been a woman longer than that and my mother and grandmother before me.

[Niamh.]

Right deleted some posts in here, lets all try to make an effort to stick to the actual subject please

[Brillopad]

No, because she is a woman and a transwoman
And you are a woman and a ciswoman

Kellys transfriend Jane may identify as woman, but if I wanted to talk about Kelly and Jane and not you, I would have to use the word trans, and if I wanted to talk about you and not Jane or Kelly, I would have to use the word cis. (Regarding its a discussion directly relating to genders as a group).

Its just a helpful little prefix that separates you from Jane should we need to use it.

Typical - Transwomen don't want to be called by a certain name ie man but they are quite happy to force a certain name ie cis onto women. Biggest load of hypocrites that every walked this earth.

You are no better by calling women on here cis women when they have made it perfectly clear they reject that name. It isn't a real name and neither you or anyone else can force it on another person who rejects it unless you are just as big a hypocrite.

[jaxie]

Typical - Transwomen don't want to be called by a certain name ie man but they are quite happy to force a certain name ie cis onto women. Biggest load of hypocrites that every walked this earth.

You are no better by calling women on here cis women when they have made it perfectly clear they reject that name. It isn't a real name and neither you or anyone else can force it on another person who rejects it unless you are just as big a hypocrite.

I see I wasn't the only one who noticed that particular goading.

[jaxie]

in fact, i would argue that forcing a majority to indicate clearly they are of a particular type increases the discriminatory affect on the minority group, rather than normalising things

You are a very smart guy Bots.

[bots]

You are a very smart guy Bots.

can you imagine the uproar, if people were required to say things like .... not jewish, not muslim etc etc etc .... which is exactly what this cis thing is doing

[jaxie]

can you imagine the uproar, if people were required to say things like .... not jewish, not muslim etc etc etc .... which is exactly what this cis thing is doing

Exactly right and if we don't speak up we are putting the rights of women back about 50 years. It's absolutely insulting that women are expected to just suck it up. Not having it.

[Withano]

but its only a definition recently introduced by a minority group and therefore is meaningless in terms of its general applicability.

Let's take the whole thing to its logical conclusion. If the majority of men/women have to start puting cis before everthing then those transitioned will still not be able to assign that label to themselves and so will be seen as an excluded group again ... it just makes zero logical sense

Nobody is putting the word cis in a sentence unless it is needed, which is rare.

[Withano]

The word cis was made up as a terminology by a biologist in 1996. Get over it and grow a clue. I've been a woman longer than that and my mother and grandmother before me.

Wrong. Lol. Cis is an ancient latin word, Jaxie.

Edit: you are literally still a woman. Nobody has ever said you was not. It's just that you are also a ciswoman as opposed to a transwoman. The sharp majority of people on Earth is either cis or trans. Getting angry over a fact of life is futile af

[Withano]

Typical - Transwomen don't want to be called by a certain name ie man but they are quite happy to force a certain name ie cis onto women. Biggest load of hypocrites that every walked this earth.

You are no better by calling women on here cis women when they have made it perfectly clear they reject that name. It isn't a real name and neither you or anyone else can force it on another person who rejects it unless you are just as big a hypocrite.

It doesn't really matter though? You can say you don't want to be called human or brown-haired, and people can respect that if they remember the odd request, but it wouldn't stop it being true.

I am a cismale whether I like it or not, you are a cis woman whether you like it r not.

If you would rather be called woman then that's fine but it doesn't explain what kind of woman you are. It will not tell people whether you was born male or female. There are other words used to describe that.

[Withano]

This really is just anger over dictionary-defined words and people are arguing as if anybody in the thread can help that lol.

[Brillopad]

It doesn't really matter though? You can say you don't want to be called human or brown-haired, and people can respect that if they remember the odd request, but it wouldn't stop it being true.

I am a cismale whether I like it or not, you are a cis woman whether you like it r not.

If you would rather be called woman then that's fine but it doesn't explain what kind of woman you are. It will not tell people whether you was born male or female. There are other words used to describe that.

As the word didn't even exist when I was born I am not a 'cis' woman and neither is anyone else who rejects it. All a load of nonsense dreamt up by people with an agenda they are trying to force on the rest of the population. Keep trying but I for one am not having a barr of it as they say!

[Beso]

All woman or all man should be used when describing people who are just that

[Withano]

As the word didn't even exist when I was born I am not a 'cis' woman and neither is anyone else who rejects it. All a load of nonsense dreamt up by people with an agenda they are trying to force on the rest of the population. Keep trying but I for one am not having a barr of it as they say!

I’m older than the word too, doesn’t automatically disqualify it from being an accurate way to describe me, obviously. That isn’t how the dictionary works.

[Oliver_W]

Nobody is putting the word cis in a sentence unless it is needed, which is rare.

Can you think of an instance when it would be needed?

[Withano]

Can you think of an instance when it would be needed?

When specifically needing to differentiate between transpeople and cispeople for the sake of making conversation easier is the only single example I can think of right now.

[Oliver_W]

When specifically needing to differentiate between transpeople and cispeople for the sake of making conversation easier is the only single example I can think of right now.

In most cases, wouldn't it be obvious from context?
* Men - please wear a suit
* Men - we have a deal on breast removal
* Men - please check your testicles
Surely it's obvious which one of these is for biological men, which is for transmen , and which is for both?




I know some biological guys have manboobs, but I just shat out some random examples, blehh

[Withano]

In most cases, wouldn't it be obvious from context?
* Men - please wear a suit
* Men - we have a deal on breast removal
* Men - please check your testicles
Surely it's obvious which one of these is for biological men, which is for transmen , and which is for both?




I know some biological guys have manboobs, but I just shat out some random examples, blehh

Obviously, that is far more confusing than using the words cismen and transmen instead of men