Do you believe you have ever been discriminated against

[Withano]

Can’t really add a severity scale to the poll, but which forms of discrimination do you believe you’ve dealt with on any level?

[Underscore]

Sexuality (gay)
Disability (moderate stammer, although it has largely 'gone')
and Physical Appearance

[Crimson Dynamo]

no

im a positive person and try not to look for excuses but rather opportunities

:)

[Withano]

Ugh i didnt add age to the poll. Mods cant edit that in can they?

[Oliver_W]

Nah, no-one really cares about homosexuality anymore, especially those in positions to discriminate.

[Oliver_W]

Ohwait, during the summer I sometimes work in safeguarding with the BBC, and I was told my application for a short post wouldn't be looked at because I missed that they wanted a female, but that was my fault for not reading the listing properly.

[Withano]

Ugh i didnt add age to the poll. Mods cant edit that in can they?

Or just change the word ‘other’ to ‘age’ if you cant add options plz

[smudgie]

no

im a positive person and try not to look for excuses but rather opportunities

:)

This.

[Withano]

This.

I dont get that, do you mean that you pretend it doesnt happen even if it does?

[smudgie]

I dont get that, do you mean that you pretend it doesnt happen even if it does?

I mean I am thick skinned enough not to let it bother me...if I did notice it.:shrug:
Heaven help a person if they try to ignore me sat in my wheelchair and talk to hubby instead:joker:

[Matthew.]

i don’t think i have

[Northern Monkey]

Depends what you mean by discrimination really.Institutionally or by individuals?

Everybody has I would think.People Dont generally dwell on it.

[ethanjames]

I don't like to think that I am oppressed or anything but mostly for my gender identity especially when I first started socially transitioning not as bad now but it still happens and I feel like **** afterwards

[armand.kay]

well I've had racial abuse hurled at me a few times and the whole gay thing has always been an issue to people

[Toy Soldier]

Yes by proximity (my youngest daughter has a disability), but I would say only mildly and infrequently to be fair.

I've also been discriminated against on here by people accusing me of Mansplaining which is extremely sexist, and also unfair, as I wouldn't have to constantly explain things (in a manly way or otherwise) if people weren't so gosh darned stupid :hmph:.

[ethanjames]

no

im a positive person and try not to look for excuses but rather opportunities

:)

yeh ok well not everyone is a white heterosexual male as most have to deal with being oppressed just bc u don't deal with it doesn't mean its an "excuse"

[Northern Monkey]

Well if we’re counting individual discrimination rather than just institutional discrimination then yep many times.

Racial abuse(for being white),Sexually assaulted by women and a transexual,heterophobia(for being too straight),For hair colour as a youngun,probably more that i can’t think of.

Like i said earlier.Everybody experiences some kind of discrimination at certain points in life but we usually just forget and move on.

[Toy Soldier]

no


False. I discriminate against you every day.

[Oliver_W]

I've also been discriminated against on here by people accusing me of Mansplaining which is extremely sexist, and also unfair, as I wouldn't have to constantly explain things (in a manly way or otherwise) if people weren't so gosh darned stupid :hmph:.
"Mansplain" is like a stupid person's version of "patronise".

[Toy Soldier]

"Mansplain" is like a stupid person's version of "patronise".What does Mansplaining have to do with Harry Potter though. Except maybe Dumbledore was guilty of it...

But he was a double minority so he gets a pass. Double because he was a wizard, and also, black.

[Oliver_W]

What does Mansplaining have to do with Harry Potter though.
har har

But he was a double minority so he gets a pass. Double because he was a wizard, and also, black.
Dumblenoir?

[Brillopad]

Yes by proximity (my youngest daughter has a disability), but I would say only mildly and infrequently to be fair.

I've also been discriminated against on here by people accusing me of Mansplaining which is extremely sexist, and also unfair, as I wouldn't have to constantly explain things (in a manly way or otherwise) if people weren't so gosh darned stupid :hmph:.

You really don’t like that word do you. It is on a par with ‘nagging’ (also extremely sexist as always directed at women) - I doubt there are many women who haven’t been accused of that by their partner/kids at some point.

[Crimson Dynamo]

False. I discriminate against you every day.

False. As i have you on ignore.

[Cherie]

in the 90s after an IRA bomb went off in London, walked into work and one of my colleagues intimated that I should feel ashamed, I told him I had suspended my membership of the IRA so he had nothing to worry about

I think everyone suffers discrimination at some point in their lives, same with bullying it happens to everyone its how you deal with it or let it affect your life that counts

[Cherie]

Well if we’re counting individual discrimination rather than just institutional discrimination then yep many times.

Racial abuse(for being white),Sexually assaulted by women and a transexual,heterophobia(for being too straight),For hair colour as a youngun,probably more that i can’t think of.

Like i said earlier.Everybody experiences some kind of discrimination at certain points in life but we usually just forget and move on.



Or I should have just quoted this

[jaxie]

Every woman on the forum has probably been discriminated against because they are women somewhere in life.

I've experienced ageism on this forum because some of you think I'm a granny, though never anywhere else so far in life and experienced sexism here.

[Cherie]

Every woman on the forum has probably been discriminated against because they are women somewhere in life.

I've experienced ageism on this forum because some of you think I'm a granny, though never anywhere else so far in life and experienced sexism here.

absolutely but it is so prevalent it is just accepted as a norm, rather than discrimination

[jaxie]

absolutely but it is so prevalent it is just accepted as a norm, rather than discrimination

Yes but it's still discrimination, amusingly it's usually from those who think themselves paragons.

[Ashley.]

Every woman on the forum has probably been discriminated against because they are women somewhere in life.

Yup.

[Withano]

absolutely but it is so prevalent it is just accepted as a norm, rather than discrimination

I genuinely feel like theres more anti-young typed posts on here
“No life experience”, “youre not a parent, you wouldnt know”, “votes left because they are young and dont understand the world” not to mention all of brillos rants about students.

Maybe its more of a you only see it when youre the target typed thing, but i cant think of many commonly used anti-elder phrases

[ethanjames]

ok its this simple if you aren't a minority you wont understand what it feels like to be discriminated against so it is not ur place to say. I as a white person I cannot say what it feels like to be a poc as im not one myself yet I can say what it is like to be discriminated against for being trans and my gender identity and my sexual orientation which others who are cishet cant relate to. having privilege and not being discriminated against isn't a bad thing its just not ur story to tell.

[Epic.]

I used to have friends who frequently called me '******' 'special needs' in derogatory manners purely for my dyspraxia and autism. I was kind of stuck because it was like an abusive relationship I couldn't get out of. Then I punched them :hee:

[Withano]

Okay, ask me then.

As an LGBT person, I've never felt discriminated against. It hasn't opened up any opportunities which wouldn't have been there before, but why should it? It hasn't closed any avenues either.

I guess at some point someone might have shouted at me that I'm a fag, but who gives a crap, they were just jerks and would probably have called me a "ginger twat" if I were a redhead, they just wanted to shout.

Not caring that youre being discriminated against still counts as discrimination :suspect: three people now have said something similar to that above, it doesnt really make sense to me

[glibberglobber]

Not caring that youre being discriminated against still counts as discrimination :suspect: three people now have said something similar to that above, it doesnt really make sense to me

Not really.

[Withano]

Not really.

I dont know if youre agreeing or disagreeing with me haha

[Oliver_W]

Not caring that youre being discriminated against still counts as discrimination :suspect: three people now have said something similar to that above, it doesnt really make sense to me

Someone saying words in the street isn't discrimination.

If they were interviewing me and said "we don't hire fudge packers here!" it'd be discrimination. But it wasn't.

[jaxie]

ok its this simple if you aren't a minority you wont understand what it feels like to be discriminated against so it is not ur place to say. I as a white person I cannot say what it feels like to be a poc as im not one myself yet I can say what it is like to be discriminated against for being trans and my gender identity and my sexual orientation which others who are cishet cant relate to. having privilege and not being discriminated against isn't a bad thing its just not ur story to tell.

I'm a woman. :shrug:

[Withano]

Someone saying words in the street isn't discrimination.

If they were interviewing me and said "we don't hire fudge packers here!" it'd be discrimination. But it wasn't.

Oh i disagree, theyre using discriminatory words to describe something about you. Its low level, but its still discrimination. Most examples people have used in this thread have been about an exchange of words.

[Brillopad]

ok its this simple if you aren't a minority you wont understand what it feels like to be discriminated against so it is not ur place to say. I as a white person I cannot say what it feels like to be a poc as im not one myself yet I can say what it is like to be discriminated against for being trans and my gender identity and my sexual orientation which others who are cishet cant relate to. having privilege and not being discriminated against isn't a bad thing its just not ur story to tell.

You don’t have to be a minority to be discriminated against. Women are the most discriminated against all over the world - but they are hardly a minority. Have you even read the thread.

[Oliver_W]

Oh i disagree, theyre using discriminatory words to describe something about you. Its low level, but its still discrimination. Most examples people have used in this thread have been about an exchange of words.

Disparaging someone's argument (older or younger) is discriminatory as it's using someone's identity to invalidate their side of the discussion. Whereas someone using mean words in passing just makes them a dick.

[montblanc]

ok its this simple if you aren't a minority you wont understand what it feels like to be discriminated against so it is not ur place to say. I as a white person I cannot say what it feels like to be a poc as im not one myself yet I can say what it is like to be discriminated against for being trans and my gender identity and my sexual orientation which others who are cishet cant relate to. having privilege and not being discriminated against isn't a bad thing its just not ur story to tell.

:clap1:

[Brillopad]

I used to have friends who frequently called me '******' 'special needs' in derogatory manners purely for my dyspraxia and autism. I was kind of stuck because it was like an abusive relationship I couldn't get out of. Then I punched them :hee:

They are the stupid ones - not you!

[ethanjames]

You don’t have to be a minority to be discriminated against. Women are the most discriminated against all over the world - but they are hardly a minority. Have you even read the thread.

yes I have and im not denying that at all??? but if u aren't a woman u cannot say whether they are discriminated against its bs

[Matthew.]

ok its this simple if you aren't a minority you wont understand what it feels like to be discriminated against so it is not ur place to say. I as a white person I cannot say what it feels like to be a poc as im not one myself yet I can say what it is like to be discriminated against for being trans and my gender identity and my sexual orientation which others who are cishet cant relate to. having privilege and not being discriminated against isn't a bad thing its just not ur story to tell.

:clap2:

[Brillopad]

:clap1:

You clearly aren’t a woman as you would understand that women of all colours face discrimination.

[Withano]

Disparaging someone's argument (older or younger) is discriminatory as it's using someone's identity to invalidate their side of the discussion. Whereas someone using mean words in passing just makes them a dick.

Id still argue that a gay man being called a fag, a woman being called a slut, a black person being called an ‘n’ etc is all discrimination, i think most people would, but your posts make sense to me anyway now that i know you disagree

[ethanjames]

You clearly aren’t a woman as you would understand that women of all colours face discrimination.

wasn't denying that white woman don't face discrimination but they don't face discrimination for being white but being a woman.

[Withano]

You clearly aren’t a woman as you would understand that women of all colours face discrimination.

Nobody in this thread has said anything remotely similar to ‘women do not face discrimination’ brillo

[Matthew.]

Then I punched them :hee:

scraps :clap1:

[Oliver_W]

Id still argue that a gay man being called a fag, a woman being called a slut, a black person being called an ‘n’ etc is all discrimination, i think most people would, but your posts make sense to me anyway now that i know you disagree
I guess all I can do is draw your attention to the thread's title:
"Do you believe you have ever been discriminated against"

I didn't feel discriminated against by them, so my answer is valid ;)

[Withano]

I guess all I can do is draw your attention to the thread's title:
"Do you believe you have ever been discriminated against"

I didn't feel discriminated against by them, so my answer is valid ;)

Yeh, i was just confused by your answer so asked you to expand on it!

[Shaun]

I don't think in a very serious sense. I've never been denied service anywhere because of my sexuality but then I've never shown any form of PDA with a member of the same sex. The other two options I clicked were only factors at school - various minor bullying for not wearing designer brands / being overweight.

[Brillopad]

Nobody in this thread has said anything remotely similar to ‘women do not face discrimination’ brillo

Someone said that they as a white person could not be discriminated against because they aren’t a minority - he said nothing about sex. White women can and are but are hardly a minority. Geez! Even white men can be discriminated against by non-whites. It’s an incorrect sweeping statement.

[Toy Soldier]

I don't think in a very serious sense. I've never been denied service anywhere because of my sexuality but then I've never shown any form of PDA with a member of the same sex. The other two options I clicked were only factors at school - various minor bullying for not wearing designer brands / being overweight.Oh if we're counting everything... I was MASSIVELY discriminated against in primary school for being a boy and not liking (actively disliking) football. I might as well have said I had ****ing leprosy.

Thankfully in high school once people's interests started to diversify - and the other people who also aren't fussed for football stopped pretending that they loved it to fit in :facepalm: - it became much less of a problem. :joker:

[Matthew.]

well actually now that i think about, when i was younger i got picked on for my weight a couple of times, would that count as discrimination?

[Epic.]

well actually now that i think about, when i was younger i got picked on for my weight a couple of times, would that count as discrimination?

It would come under the "physical appearance" option due to being body shaming

[Northern Monkey]

absolutely but it is so prevalent it is just accepted as a norm, rather than discrimination

Bashing(figuratively) the older generations is ‘progressive’ to some of the youf these days.

“Gammon”
“Brexit voting coffin dodgers” etc etc

[Oliver_W]

Yeh, i was just confused by your answer so asked you to expand on it!

Have I made what and why I feel clear, even if you don't agree?

[Matthew.]

It would come under the "physical appearance" option due to being body shaming

oh ok, cant vote in the poll again though i dont think, but thanks anyway

[Withano]

Have I made what and why I feel clear, even if you don't agree?

Yeah

[Withano]

Someone said that they as a white person could not be discriminated against because they aren’t a minority - he said nothing about sex. White women can and are but are hardly a minority. Geez! Even white men can be discriminated against by non-whites. It’s an incorrect sweeping statement.

No, they said that they as a white person can not say what it feels like to be a person of colour, which is incredibly accurate.

[Matthew.]

I dont think thats true tbf, i think straight people, white people, and men can all face discrimination.. it just happens less often.

and is generally less talked about but this doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen.

[Toy Soldier]

My heart bleeds for people whose ancestors weren’t enslaved for centuries or weren’t seen as a man’s property over history.

See the ignorance on this forum.

I'm not sure you've thought that second one through, as exactly 50% of every man's ancestors were female. :think:

I'm with you on race. Well, sort of. I'm with you in that I fully agree that there are ongoing issues (serious ones) to this day... Racism is NOT a "thing of the past". However I don't believe in ancestral hurt or guilt beyond what is still having a knock-on effect.

[Brillopad]

My heart bleeds for people whose ancestors weren’t enslaved for centuries or weren’t seen as a man’s property over history.

See the ignorance on this forum.

And how many black men consider their wives as their property! Do you even see how discriminating black men, as well as white men, can be towards women which is every bit as ignorant.

[Withano]

(Its not a contest)

[Redway]

I'm not sure you've thought that second one through, as exactly 50% of every man's ancestors were female. :think:

I'm with you on race. Well, sort of. I'm with you in that I fully agree that there are ongoing issues (serious ones) to this day... Racism is NOT a "thing of the past". However I don't believe in ancestral hurt or guilt beyond what is still having a knock-on effect.
I’m talking about the historical role of women in the sense of being seen as a man’s property. What is it exactly that I didn’t think through?
And how many black men consider their wives as their property! Do you even see how discriminating black men, as well as white men, can be towards women which is every bit as ignorant.

You could always quote me where I said some black men don’t have that attitude instead of jumping on the defensive for no reason.

[Toy Soldier]

I’m talking about the historical role of women in the sense of being seen as a man’s property. What is it exactly that I didn’t think through?

You were suggesting that women's ancestors are women... Or rather, that men don't have ancestors who are women. :think:

Though maybe you weren't being literal when you said "ancestors".

[Redway]

You were suggesting that women's ancestors are women... Or rather, that men don't have ancestors who are women. :think:

Though maybe you weren't being literal when you said "ancestors".

I was giving two examples of discrimination. Racism and sexism. Notice I said “or” in-between “[...] ancestors” and “man’s property.”

At least read the post properly.

[Toy Soldier]

I was giving two examples of discrimination. Racism and sexism. Notice I said “or” in-between “[...] ancestors” and “man’s property.”

At least read the post properly.You said ancestors followed by two separate "weren't" statements which suggests that you intended both statements to apply to the term "ancestors".

I can accept that that's not what you meant and that's fine, but don't criticise other people's comprehension when it's your own sentence structure that's ****ed :idc:.

[Maru]

Yes, and I don't really care anymore. Here's why...

There is a condition that runs through my family that subjected my mother and other family members to rather cruel treatment growing up. For example, when were crossing the street one time, a mother and her kids.. one of the kids came behind my mother "mimicking" her walk and followed her across the crosswalk. To the amusement of the mother and her other kids... this kind of treatment is more common than most people realize, and in my view, nobody is more stigmatized than the mentally ill and the physically disabled.

Anyway, I was also bullied in school and being small in stature didn't help either. There were other things that made me very different than other kids (race not included). I learned really fast, that the main reason I was the target for this behavior is because 1) I was an easy target being that I 'stood out' from the group 2) I ceded control over my emotional and psychological well-being over to these aggressors... 3) I was rightfully a bit obnoxious in my youth (:laugh:)

When I figured out I was giving up my personal power, a switch went off and I took it back. I did not need permission to feel OK in my own shoes from other people. The idea of doing of someone trying to pull the wool over my eyes, to make me feel otherwise, now that actually angers me quite a bit. Like infuriatingly so. So much so, there's no chance I think I would ever cede that power again. In relating my sense of self to how I was treated in society, I was arming them with all the "propaganda" to effectively label and define my existance... so in realizing that, a vast majority of my misery went away pretty much overnight.

The other pressure that sort of led me to that conclusion is because my family's reaction to bullying in their early childhood. They have a crippling form of the disease, so "hiding" isn't really an option for them. So what was my uncle's solution? He is in his 40's and exists for the most part in his bedroom... will not leave out of fear of ridicule. When people come over, if he doesn't know them that well or haven't seen them in a while, he will turn around and rush back to his room... he may eventually come out when the fear goes down a bit, but in general, he's incredibly sensitive to other people's treatment of him. There's absolutely no reason for him to hide, he is actually quite a lovely personality and he's pretty funny... but he doesn't have a voice due to the form of the disease he has (we can understand him a little though), so that maybe intensifies the feeling of needing to be excluded so as to not put pressure on others to "assist" him... which is my other gripe... that is the tendency for most folk who encounter the disabled is to coddle/protect them... that's actually quite humiliating (and even annoying) at times for someone who already struggles to do very much, as people are quite pushy about wanting to help those who are in a "lesser" condition.

My mother is very similar, and she has lived with a major victim complex her whole life.

So I've seen what happens when we give power to other people in how we feel, and that's not a way to live life at all... my uncle has no quality of life, but he's fully adjusted to the situation because of the crippling fear. He does not wear glasses either, so he is virtually blind... means everyone has to do everything for him just about and it's not good, because he's already so much of his personal power to others. Thankfully they have family members that look after them now full-time who they trust (but also enable them), but I don't know what they will do when those family members pass...

So yeah... have I been discriminated? Oh hell yeah. In a few number of ways. But do I care now? No. ***** no... never let other people have control over your sense of well-being and your way of life. The best revenge is not giving a sh**. I do believe when we cede our emotions to others, we are making the problem much more complicated for ourselves than it really needs to be. The worst things we do in that mindset is what we do to (or don't do for) ourselves... how we treat ourselves is more important than whether we "belong".

Anyway, I think people who "discriminate", they do it because they crave the personal power they can't summon for themselves, so they get it from others... they want you to become restricted emotionally, as restricted as they feel. It absolutely says loads about those individuals, and it has very little to do with the person they are actually discriminating. I don't even "feel sorry" for people who are stuck in the victim-cycle, because I can see all the traps now... it's rather cyclical, but it's a bit like any other fear... getting past it is pretty much the most difficult part. If you live without other people's permission, then they have no choice but to deal with it. It's their problem...

TDLR: I think a large part of overcoming adversity is our attitude... yes, there are the real obstacles, like when someone is applying for welfare or having to participate in that rigged system, there's a lot of discrimination there, and that's always a battle. However, discrimination is very common (imo) in various walks of life... I think fixating on particular character traits or even skin tone or "looks", that's probably the point of the discrimination is to get you to be hung up on it... but there are plenty of areas of life where the field is rather even, actually, but only if you can learn to be your own hero, then you won't need anyone else to come save you...

[Cherie]

Yes, and I don't really care anymore. Here's why...

There is a condition that runs through my family that subjected my mother and other family members to rather cruel treatment growing up. For example, when were crossing the street one time, a mother and her kids.. one of the kids came behind my mother "mimicking" her walk and followed her across the crosswalk. To the amusement of the mother and her other kids... this kind of treatment is more common than most people realize, and in my view, nobody is more stigmatized than the mentally ill and the physically disabled.

Anyway, I was also bullied in school and being small in stature didn't help either. There were other things that made me very different than other kids (race not included). I learned really fast, that the main reason I was the target for this behavior is because 1) I was an easy target being that I 'stood out' from the group 2) I ceded control over my emotional and psychological well-being over to these aggressors... 3) I was rightfully a bit obnoxious in my youth (:laugh:)

When I figured out I was giving up my personal power, a switch went off and I took it back. I did not need permission to feel OK in my own shoes from other people. The idea of doing of someone trying to pull the wool over my eyes, to make me feel otherwise, now that actually angers me quite a bit. Like infuriatingly so. So much so, there's no chance I think I would ever cede that power again. In relating my sense of self to how I was treated in society, I was arming them with all the "propaganda" to effectively label and define my existance... so in realizing that, a vast majority of my misery went away pretty much overnight.

The other pressure that sort of led me to that conclusion is because my family's reaction to bullying in their early childhood. They have a crippling form of the disease, so "hiding" isn't really an option for them. So what was my uncle's solution? He is in his 40's and exists for the most part in his bedroom... will not leave out of fear of ridicule. When people come over, if he doesn't know them that well or haven't seen them in a while, he will turn around and rush back to his room... he may eventually come out when the fear goes down a bit, but in general, he's incredibly sensitive to other people's treatment of him. There's absolutely no reason for him to hide, he is actually quite a lovely personality and he's pretty funny... but he doesn't have a voice due to the form of the disease he has (we can understand him a little though), so that maybe intensifies the feeling of needing to be excluded so as to not put pressure on others to "assist" him... which is my other gripe... that is the tendency for most folk who encounter the disabled is to coddle/protect them... that's actually quite humiliating (and even annoying) at times for someone who already struggles to do very much, as people are quite pushy about wanting to help those who are in a "lesser" condition.

My mother is very similar, and she has lived with a major victim complex her whole life.

So I've seen what happens when we give power to other people in how we feel, and that's not a way to live life at all... my uncle has no quality of life, but he's fully adjusted to the situation because of the crippling fear. He does not wear glasses either, so he is virtually blind... means everyone has to do everything for him just about and it's not good, because he's already so much of his personal power to others. Thankfully they have family members that look after them now full-time who they trust (but also enable them), but I don't know what they will do when those family members pass...

So yeah... have I been discriminated? Oh hell yeah. In a few number of ways. But do I care now? No. ***** no... never let other people have control over your sense of well-being and your way of life. The best revenge is not giving a sh**. I do believe when we cede our emotions to others, we are making the problem much more complicated for ourselves than it really needs to be. The worst things we do in that mindset is what we do to (or don't do for) ourselves... how we treat ourselves is more important than whether we "belong".

Anyway, I think people who "discriminate", they do it because they crave the personal power they can't summon for themselves, so they get it from others... they want you to become restricted emotionally, as restricted as they feel. It absolutely says loads about those individuals, and it has very little to do with the person they are actually discriminating. I don't even "feel sorry" for people who are stuck in the victim-cycle, because I can see all the traps now... it's rather cyclical, but it's a bit like any other fear... getting past it is pretty much the most difficult part. If you live without other people's permission, then they have no choice but to deal with it. It's their problem...

TDLR: I think a large part of overcoming adversity is our attitude... yes, there are the real obstacles, like when someone is applying for welfare or having to participate in that rigged system, there's a lot of discrimination there, and that's always a battle. However, discrimination is very common (imo) in various walks of life... I think fixating on particular character traits or even skin tone or "looks", that's probably the point of the discrimination is to get you to be hung up on it... but there are plenty of areas of life where the field is rather even, actually, but only if you can learn to be your own hero, then you won't need anyone else to come save you...

People with disabilities are far and away the most discriminated against, they are either patronised, mocked or ignored, and only treated as equals by a few

[LaLaLand]

Jesus loads.

Being Welsh you're always the butt of jokes, having anxiety makes people judge how you deal with everyday situations (call you weird etc) and also being a self-employed artist I constantly get "WHY DON'T YOU GET A REAL JOB?".

Best one though was we had a female teacher in Primary School who didn't hide the fact she didn't care for little boys and only used to help the girls in lessons and used to ignore us boys :laugh2:

[Maru]

"My heart bleeds for people whose ancestors weren’t enslaved for centuries or weren’t seen as a man’s property over history."

Just about every population in the world has been enslaved at one point or another. I think that purporting blacks to be the sole minority to have been persecuted and treated in this way isn't constructive debate. Unfortunately slavery was a common practice up until recent times, until thankfully civilizations finally started to move away from it...

[Redway]

Just about every population in the world has been enslaved at one point or another. I think that purporting blacks to be the sole minority to have been persecuted and treated in this way isn't constructive debate. Unfortunately slavery was a common practice up until recent times, until thankfully civilizations finally started to move away from it...

Enslavement didn't happen at the same level across all groups though. Obviously.

My heart doesn't bleed for straight white men being discriminated against on those factors. That's without taking into account personal forms of discrimination but this thread's all about prejudice based on external factors.

[Maru]

Enslavement didn't happen at the same level across all groups though. Obviously.

My heart doesn't bleed for straight white men being discriminated against on those factors. That's without taking into account personal forms of discrimination but this thread's all about prejudice based on external factors.

Not, not obviously. Ancient Rome. Jews. Africans have also enslaved whites. Native Americans were enslaved when Europeans involved. The Aztecs, Mayans, etc were enslaved and murdered by the Spanish. Marriage up until recent times was a form of enslavement. Domestic violence was often a part of that deal as well and in some cases, so was rape. Some hispanic cultures have domestic violence historically as a way to enforce spousal loyalty. I'm sure there are other historical contexts that are comparable. Sex-trafficking is a form of slavery and still goes on today (all races), in quite a traumatic form actually. My point is, pigment has nothing to do with how or whether hardship occurs... it all relates back to the environment and when the cultural conditions support it...

Thankfully, many cultures have moved away from a mentality that supports it, but it doesn't stop individuals from being abused, whatever color, or even women (or even just people) to be enslaved in one form or another. I had a friend who family raised her to in a cult... she was confused as a child when her mother and her aunt would sleep in the same bed with her father, and would have to lie to friends about cousins who were actually siblings. She was given a role and told to fulfill it. She'd been in and out of one inappropriate and abusive relationship one after another all through her childhood and is just now getting help... I'm guessing some would want to know her race to see how low on the totem pole she exists, but what if I told you it doesn't even matter?... enslavement comes in all kinds of forms.

I also wouldn't say men always have a cakewalk either. Trauma can happen to anyone for any variety of reasons.

[Eddie.]

Race because some ignorant people in Singapore still think Filipinos are slaves in a way...

Sexuality because being a part of the LGBTQ community is frowned upon here by the government (I’m bisexual.)

Physical appearance as I used to be a fat kid in school and was ridiculed for my size and my ability not to do well in Physical Education classes...

[Brillopad]

Not, not obviously. Ancient Rome. Jews. Africans have also enslaved whites. Native Americans were enslaved when Europeans involved. The Aztecs, Mayans, etc were enslaved and murdered by the Spanish. Marriage up until recent times was a form of enslavement. Domestic violence was often a part of that deal as well and in some cases, so was rape. Some hispanic cultures have domestic violence historically as a way to enforce spousal loyalty. I'm sure there are other historical contexts that are comparable. Sex-trafficking is a form of slavery and still goes on today (all races), in quite a traumatic form actually. My point is, pigment has nothing to do with how or whether hardship occurs... it all relates back to the environment and when the cultural conditions support it...

Thankfully, many cultures have moved away from a mentality that supports it, but it doesn't stop individuals from being abused, whatever color, or even women (or even just people) to be enslaved in one form or another. I had a friend who family raised her to in a cult... she was confused as a child when her mother and her aunt would sleep in the same bed with her father, and would have to lie to friends about cousins who were actually siblings. She was given a role and told to fulfill it. She'd been in and out of one inappropriate and abusive relationship one after another all through her childhood and is just now getting help... I'm guessing some would want to know her race to see how low on the totem pole she exists, but what if I told you it doesn't even matter?... enslavement comes in all kinds of forms.

I also wouldn't say men always have a cakewalk either. Trauma can happen to anyone for any variety of reasons.

Completely agree Maru. Some very good points there. Enslavement has taken many forms and affected many people and is certainly not just a case of black v white. Blacks also enslave other blacks and that still goes on today. Men, white and black, sell women into sex slavery again which still goes on today. And yes marriage is still a form of slavery in some cultures today. Slavery, of one kind or another, is far more extensive than most acknowledge, or even think about - and today in our so-called modern world.

[Brillopad]

Sorry Withano, not trying to be picky, but as your poll only allows us to pick one thing on which we have been discriminated against it doesn’t really give an accurate picture of discrimination as many/most can be discriminated against for more than one reason.

[Ammi]

Can’t really add a severity scale to the poll, but which forms of discrimination do you believe you’ve dealt with on any level?

...just really to add Withano’s OP again in him saying he can’t add a severity to the scale...I do completely get what Redway is saying, I think the point of what he wa saying wasn’t put in the best way though with slavery etc...people being discriminated against, feeling prejudices and intolerance for a skin colour..is something that many people still experience many times through their lives in different ways...some ways may be able to be ‘brushed off’ and other ways, not so much...they penetrate a little deeper or they have a huge impact on lives in terms of acts of violence toward...obviously its down to an individual character as well, an ability to be able to brush off the smaller things../..forms of discrimination and prejudices...and it is always hopefully progressing and has definately progressed hugely from back in the day stuff through history...but it is very real and very much felt so it cannot be distracted from or detracted from because it’s not the only discrimination and prejudice in existence...I think that’s what Redway is trying to address in ‘you have to have felt it to truly understand’ it’s prevalence still in today’s society...

[Ammi]

Sorry Withano, not trying to be picky, but as your poll only allows us to pick one thing on which we have been discriminated against it doesn’t really give an accurate picture of discrimination as many/most can be discriminated against for more than one reason.

...well Withano is just useless at making polls I reckon, Brillo...because there are multi choice options I believe...what does he know though...

[Ammi]

...no I don’t think I’ve ever felt discriminated against as such...a bit of patronising on occasions and mansplained to by TS obviously...but I don’t feel special because he mansplains to all females in equal measure..(..and also to all males in equal measure..)..allegedly and apparently...tongue in cheek smiley inserted...

...but no, not actual discrimination or prejudice or intolerance...but then through my working life in the past, I’ve mainly worked in a female world is the thing..and us females don’t tend to discriminate each other, or the ones I’ve known anyway...I’ll femalesplain that to TS so he can see where he’s going wrong etc and why he’s felt his discrimination ....

[Brillopad]

...well Withano is just useless at making polls I reckon, Brillo...because there are multi choice options I believe...what does he know though...

Are there. I wanted to pick another but could not see a way of doing that.

[Alf]

...no I don’t think I’ve ever felt discriminated against as such...a bit of patronising on occasions and mansplained to by TS obviously...but I don’t feel special because he mansplains to all females in equal measure..(..and also to all males in equal measure..)..allegedly and apparently...tongue in cheek smiley inserted...

...but no, not actual discrimination or prejudice or intolerance...but then through my working life in the past, I’ve mainly worked in a female world is the thing. and us females don’t tend to discriminate each other, or the ones I’ve known anyway...I’ll femalesplain that to TS so he can see where he’s going wrong etc and why he’s felt his discrimination ....Such a tolerant sex you are. Do you have any flaws?

[Ammi]

Are there. I wanted to pick another but could not see a way of doing that.

...I have to admit I very rarely take part in polls, Brillo...but I do believe there are multi vote options so long as they’re set at the time of making a poll..(..if I recall correctly..)...just by ticking more than one box at the rime of voting as well but I don’t think it can be changed once a ‘one vote’ has been entered...

[Ammi]

Such a tolerant sex you are. Do you have any flaws?

...hmmm, I don’t think so, Alf...but if you give me a wee while...a day or so..?..I might be able to think of some...I promise I’ll try for you...but only because it is you, you know..

[Ammi]

...actually Alf, I just had a little think in the shower...I personally haven’t felt any discrimination in my life...but females often do discriminate against each other, no less than a male can discriminate against a female for a lifestyle or a body shape or whatever..?...things we see on this very forum like for instance....doesn’t she look amazing and stunning in that bikini with her shapely body and her asthetically pretty face etc...as oppose to ughhh, she’s too old for that, not a body shape for that and ughhh, do we really need to see that...discriminating in sexism in ageism in body shape ism and etc...

...also with the lifestyle choices of females in terms of sexual lifestyle choices...ugggh, all of those children, all of those partners...all of that sexual misconduct stuff....that slaaaaaaaaaaaaaag....etc...

...these are discriminations and prejudices against females and by both males and females ....I’ll think of more I’m sure...just the first ones to come to mind...

[Withano]

Sorry Withano, not trying to be picky, but as your poll only allows us to pick one thing on which we have been discriminated against it doesn’t really give an accurate picture of discrimination as many/most can be discriminated against for more than one reason.

That isnt true

[Withano]

...well Withano is just useless at making polls I reckon, Brillo...because there are multi choice options I believe...what does he know though...

It is multichoice you two are just useless at answering polls :fist:

[kirklancaster]

in the 90s after an IRA bomb went off in London, walked into work and one of my colleagues intimated that I should feel ashamed, I told him I had suspended my membership of the IRA so he had nothing to worry about

I think everyone suffers discrimination at some point in their lives, same with bullying it happens to everyone its how you deal with it or let it affect your life that counts

I would have unloaded the greatest number of swear words at the ignorant bastard that I could have mustered, Cherie.

[Cherie]

I would have unloaded the greatest number of swear words at the ignorant bastard that I could have mustered, Cherie.

I think he got the gist :laugh:

[Ammi]

...I guess what I find hard about these discussions..(specifically on the forum because it’s not something I encounter in real life with any similar discussions with family/friends etc...)...discussions about discrimination for things like race, sex, gender, sexuality etc in particular...are often very much ‘what about us’, so they kind of don’t really progress that much or stretch very much because the threads get stuck in those things quite a bit...it’s something I don’t really understand at all because all who have felt discrimination in any way in their lives for any of those things would surely feel empathy and understanding in sharing a common feeling...because the ‘us’ of what about us is all of us...some to a lesser degree and some to a greater with different impacts etc but it’s still a common feeling of discrimination shared by all...

...and yeah if straight, white men have felt discrimination because they’re straight or white or men...then they’re an ‘us’ as well...

[Beso]

I think he got the gist :laugh:

The world needs strong people like you cherie.

[Beso]

Im scottish...my forefathers were raped and pillaged, starved and buggered by the english....your forefathers were raped, enslaved etc by the english/british...yet here we both are...


Living in england...moaning.

[Redway]

Im scottish...my forefathers were raped and pillaged, starved and buggered by the english....your forefathers were raped, enslaved etc by the english/british...yet here we both are...


Living in england...moaning.

I’m not discounting individual experiences but racism to black people runs a lot deeper. Like someone else said it’s not about comparing or point-scoring but I don’t remember Scots ever being considered a savage race worldwide. I wouldnt think institutional racism and daily discrimination applies as much either. Or police brutality. Or public segregation. Or racist murders. I don’t think there’s a racist word used against Scots in the same way the n word is to people of colour either.

I don’t know why it pains some privileged people on here to admit that some deep-rooted types of discrimination can’t be understood fully without the experience and cultural upbringing. All I see you doing is belittling people of colour’s experiences because white men can be victims too. LMAO. No problem.

[Tom4784]

Of course.

I think bisexual people are in an interesting position because we can see things from both sides. I have never been discriminated against when I've had a girlfriend or I've walked down the street with one. I've never had any issues with people thinking I'm straight. On the occasions I've had a boyfriend however, it's a different story. I think to say that straight people can be seriously discriminated against just isn't really true. The way the world is, straight is the default. There's never been a reason for people to believe that they aren't entitled to the same rights as gay people because they are straight, straight people have never lived in fear because they are straight. They are the natural majority and always will be.

I've never felt like I've been discriminated against because I'm a man unless it ties into my sexuality. I've never thought 'Okay, I'm a man and this situation is dangerous for me because of that.' I'm not saying that sexism against men isn't possible, but in comparison to what women have to deal with, can we really complain? Our quality of life is good.

I think people can be racist against white people but I do think that most white people that believe they are being discriminated against because they are white are kind of deluding themselves. There are instances of actual discrimination of course but most of the time white people just want to be seen as victims.

[Cherie]

Of course.

I think bisexual people are in an interesting position because we can see things from both sides. I have never been discriminated against when I've had a girlfriend or I've walked down the street with one. I've never had any issues with people thinking I'm straight. On the occasions I've had a boyfriend however, it's a different story. I think to say that straight people can be seriously discriminated against just isn't really true. The way the world is, straight is the default. There's never been a reason for people to believe that they aren't entitled to the same rights as gay people because they are straight, straight people have never lived in fear because they are straight. They are the natural majority and always will be.

I've never felt like I've been discriminated against because I'm a man unless it ties into my sexuality. I've never thought 'Okay, I'm a man and this situation is dangerous for me because of that.' I'm not saying that sexism against men isn't possible, but in comparison to what women have to deal with, can we really complain? Our quality of life is good.

I think people can be racist against white people but I do think that most white people that believe they are being discriminated against because they are white are kind of deluding themselves. There are instances of actual discrimination of course but most of the time white people just want to be seen as victims.

so straight white people can't be discriminated against on grounds of age, religion, gender, disability, nationality etc ?????? your focus is purely on sexuality which really isn't the be all and end all of discrimination

[jaxie]

what does this have to do with anything?

Well if you read the words you would see that Redway said that the Scots had never been treated/thought of as a Savage people. I was pointing out that in fact they have.

Is there anything else you need clarification on while we are here?

Many peoples have dark and troubled histories and the experiences of one people do not trump or take away the suffering of another people.

For instance English landowners practically starved the Irish most cruelly during the potato famine. (Sorry Cherie, Naimh!)

[Cherie]

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=337130&highlight=traveller


This is the worst thread I have ever seen on TiBB in terms of discrimination, every stereotype in the book was pulled out and applied to all

[montblanc]

Well if you read the words you would see that Redway said that the Scots had never been treated/thought of as a Savage people. I was pointing out that in fact they have.

Is there anything else you need clarification on while we are here?

Many peoples have dark and troubled histories and the experiences of one people do not trump or take away the suffering of another people.

For instance English landowners practically starved the Irish most cruelly during the potato famine.

well yes but black people are STILL affected by the aftermath of slavery today

[montblanc]

which is why the multiple ‘it’s just history’ comments regarding african slavery are extremely ignorant

[Redway]

How does the fact slavery used to exist affect your life today?

In ways that you can’t understand because you don’t have the experience and upbringing. Why can’t people know their boundaries when it comes to race anymore?

[ethanjames]

saying that people arent effected by slavery today is just ignorant and could be considered offensive.

[jaxie]

well yes but black people are STILL affected by the aftermath of slavery today

Did I say they weren't?

Though Redway is telling someone else that his people's suffering don't count. It does. Read some history. England's relationship with Scotland is still complex today and a lot of that is down to hundreds of years of history.

[Brillopad]

which is why the multiple ‘it’s just history’ comments regarding african slavery are extremely ignorant

What about women of all races sold into prostitution and sexual slavery today in many countries including the West. I don’t see you being too concerned about that.

[Redway]

Did I say they weren't?

Though Redway is telling someone else that his people's suffering don't count. It does. Read some history. England's relationship with Scotland is still complex today and a lot of that is down to hundreds of years of history.

Whatever happened between England and Scotland matters to the relevant people but you’re not serious if you think you can honestly compare it to black slavery. Still felt today in reasons that aren’t the concern of people who it doesn’t affect.

[bots]

what does this have to do with anything?

So it's only black slavery that is important then? Something that has been phased out in nearly every civilised country.

I'm not trying to minimise slavery, it's abhorrent, but history has provided countless examples where races have been persecuted. It's not a competition

[montblanc]

What about women of all races sold into prostitution and sexual slavery today in many countries including the West. I don’t see you being too concerned about that.

that’s obviosuly horrible too but what exactly does that have to do with the post you quoted?

[Redway]

https://youtu.be/wTVVjf041ow
https://youtu.be/xEnqxawXxBY
https://youtu.be/tyOr6kM_pvI
https://youtu.be/mA-h9krKd2E

Let’s all get around and talk about Scottish slavery though. For no other reason than proving some daft point about white people being victims and so black oriole can’t respond psychologically to their own history. Even that discussion’s got to be fronted and directed by white people.

[Oliver_W]

In ways that you can’t understand because you don’t have the experience and upbringing.

Such as ... ?

[Redway]

Such as ... ?

Such as things that someone like you can obviously never understand. No one needs to justify yourself to you because he’d things don’t exist in your world.

Light skin/dark skin complex is a black issue that sprigs from the slavery days for one thing. You’re obviously too ignorant to know about that. And you most definitely are ignorant. You obviously don’t know anything about black culture but instead of knowing your boundaries with these race issues you’re fronting a topic that you don’t and can’t understand. Black people aren’t your mates when it comes to black history and experiences. Like I say you should know where to accept your scope of understanding can only be superficial at most because you’re not affected. That should be enough for you.

It’s just like men leading feminism discussions and telling women how to react to the daily discrimination they face.

[Brillopad]

that’s obviosuly horrible too but what exactly does that have to do with the post you quoted?

Just pointing out that black slavery is not the only kind of slavery in the world. No kind of slavery is legal in the West but you will probably find blacks enslaving other blacks in Africa. It really isn’t simply whites enslaving blacks as some are trying to imply. It is far more complicated than that.

[Oliver_W]

Such as things that someone like you can obviously never understand. No one needs to justify yourself to you because he’d things don’t exist in your world.

Light skin/dark skin complex is a black issue that sprigs from the slavery days for one thing. You’re obviously too ignorant to know about that. And you most definitely are ignorant. You obviously don’t know anything about black culture but instead of knowing your boundaries with these race issues you’re fronting a topic that you don’t and can’t understand.

So you can't name a single way that the past existence of slavery affects you today... Got it :)

Btw in the 1830s nearly 4000 slave owners were black, so let's not make this a black vs white thing.

[Redway]

So you can't name a single way that the past existence of slavery affects you today... Got it :)

Btw in the 1830s nearly 4000 slave owners were black, so let's not make this a black vs white thing.

I did name a single thing though didn’t I. Read the post.

[montblanc]

Just pointing out that black slavery is not the only kind of slavery in the world. No kind of slavery is legal in the West but you will probably find blacks enslaving other blacks in Africa. It really isn’t simply whites enslaving blacks as some are trying to imply. It is far more complicated than that.

obviosuly i know that black slavery isn’t the only form of slavery but some in this thread are acting as if black slavery and the effects that came with it doesn’t affect black people (in a huge way) today

[Redway]

Did I say they weren't?

Though Redway is telling someone else that his people's suffering don't count. It does. Read some history. England's relationship with Scotland is still complex today and a lot of that is down to hundreds of years of history.

England’s relationship with Scotland can still be complex today after hundreds of years but black slavery’s history that doesn’t affect people of colour anymore. I see.

[Oliver_W]

I did name a single thing though didn’t I. Read the post.
Oh the light skin/dark skin thing, sorry I overlooked that as being supplementary to your overarching points.

Some of you people need to spend a bit of time in Brixton.
I did! In Novemeber I went to a Blondie gig there. The tube station had one of the A-board things with a big long message with lots of song title puns in it <3
I didn't go out drinking in Brixton before/after the gig because that's not my thing, but I stayed in a hostel and started queueing at around noon. When I told people where I was going they said stuff like "oo you're brave, going there!" but I didn't feel threatened at all, people either seemed friendly or indifferent.
I doubt you care about any of that, but still:)

[Ant.]

Been discriminated against for my disability, it's mostly been ignorant comments from people unwilling to understand or listen to why it matters or how it affects me

[Tom4784]

so straight white people can't be discriminated against on grounds of age, religion, gender, disability, nationality etc ?????? your focus is purely on sexuality which really isn't the be all and end all of discrimination

Bit of a reach there, Cherie and I think you know that.

Straight people can't really be discriminated against on the grounds of their sexuality, in theory they can but in practice it just does not happen. White people in the western world do not have to fear racism. We just don't. Again, theoretically it's possible but a white person in the west will never face the same discrimination a black person faces.

What you are doing here is twisting things by making out that I've said that white straight people can't complain about discrimination at all and that's just a straight up fallacy on your part. Straight White people are just not likely to ever experience racism or discrimination against their sexuality. Ageism, disability, religion etc are a completely different barrel of fish and aren't reliant on race or sexuality and you know that.

What you are doing is basically muddying the discussion to try to score a cheap win while minimalising racism and homophobia.

[Cherie]

Bit of a reach there, Cherie and I think you know that.

Straight people can't really be discriminated against on the grounds of their sexuality, in theory they can but in practice it just does not happen. White people in the western world do not have to fear racism. We just don't. Again, theoretically it's possible but a white person in the west will never face the same discrimination a black person faces.

What you are doing here is twisting things by making out that I've said that white straight people can't complain about discrimination at all and that's just a straight up fallacy on your part. Straight White people are just not likely to ever experience racism or discrimination against their sexuality. Ageism, disability, religion etc are a completely different barrel of fish and aren't reliant on race or sexuality and you know that.

What you are doing is basically muddying the discussion to try to score a cheap win while minimalising racism and homophobia.

I’m not minimising anything you are focussing on two issues of discrimation that you obviously feel are more important that any other, as previously said this isn’t a competition, and the number of times it happens is not relevant, straight whites can experience sexual discrimination as part of a mixed race couple and a white person would rarely be welcomed into an Asian family. I see you didn’t comment on the traveller thread either which had some of the worse discrimation I have seen on TiBB and it was allowed to stand, imagine talking a black or Asian stereotype and applying it to a whole community, the masses would be baying for blood

[Withano]

I dont understand why some of you are trying to make this a contest lol.

All types of discrimination are valid and tragic.

This whole ‘oh just a bit of racism, why dont you care about sexism?’ ‘Oh yeh, well thats similar to scottish people so shut up’ typed argument youve made yourselves is ugly and pathetic.

[Alf]

I dont understand why some of you are trying to make this a contest lol.

All types of discrimination are valid and tragic.

This whole ‘oh just a bit of racism, why dont you care about sexism?’ ‘Oh yeh, well thats similar to scottish people so shut up’ typed argument youve made yourselves is ugly and pathetic.Maybe humans are tribal by nature?

[Maru]

I’m not minimising anything you are focussing on two issues of discrimation that you obviously feel are more important that any other, as previously said this isn’t a competition, and the number of times it happens is not relevant, straight whites can experience sexual discrimination as part of a mixed race couple and a white person would rarely be welcomed into an Asian family. I see you didn’t comment on the traveller thread either which had some of the worse discrimation I have seen on TiBB and it was allowed to stand, imagine talking a black or Asian stereotype and applying it to a whole community, the masses would be baying for blood

As I sit here at a multi-family Vietnamese wedding reception where the bride is white. :laugh: (My husband is part of the reception.)

But yeah stigmas are common in all walks of life. It isn't limited to specific race. All cultures have some form of ethnocentrism embedded within them.

[Oliver_W]

As I sit here at a multi-family Vietnamese wedding reception where the bride is white. :laugh: (My husband is part of the reception.)

But yeah stigmas are common in all walks of life. It isn't limited to specific race. All cultures have some form of ethnocentrism embedded within them.

In the UK, "Asian" generally refers to people from like Pakistan or India, those from Japan/China/Vietnam are generally referred to by their country :) In the USA it's pretty much opposite, right?

[Tom4784]

I’m not minimising anything you are focussing on two issues of discrimation that you obviously feel are more important that any other, as previously said this isn’t a competition, and the number of times it happens is not relevant, straight whites can experience sexual discrimination as part of a mixed race couple and a white person would rarely be welcomed into an Asian family. I see you didn’t comment on the traveller thread either which had some of the worse discrimation I have seen on TiBB and it was allowed to stand, imagine talking a black or Asian stereotype and applying it to a whole community, the masses would be baying for blood

This is simply a narrative that you are creating and attributing to me in order to warp what I'm saying instead of arguing against it.

I've never said that it's a competition either? I think you must have either confused my post for someone else's or you are simply reading into something that isn't there. Honestly, I don't really understand the point you are trying to make in relation to what I've said.

My points where very simple, I've experienced more discrimination when people believe me to be gay then if they believe me to be straight and that, in the western world, it's not really possible for white people to face the same issues of racism that say, a black person faces. I've never been discriminated on account of being a white person. I've also never been discriminated against when it comes to being a man, the only times it's come up is in conjunction with my sexuality.

I don't really understand how you got anything regarding a competition from that, I truly don't.

Going back to your examples, a straight white man in a mixed race relationship is not an example of sexual discrimination but of racism and it's ore often because people think the woman is not 'good enough' on accounts of her race. People aren't hating on that man because he is straight so to make out that he is being discriminated on account of his sexuality is just false. I think your point about Asian families is quite a broad stroke of a remark that is dated and not at all true for everyone. It's basically promoting a stereotype as the truth.

I didn't comment on this 'traveller thread' because I was probably busy doing something else. I don't see every thread, shockingly enough. I'm not on this forum 24/7. No one needs to comment on any thread to have their opinion validated in this thread in anyway. What you are doing with that is basically denying people their opinions unless they fulfill your quota and that's quite frankly bull****.

[Maru]

In the UK, "Asian" generally refers to people from like Pakistan or India, those from Japan/China/Vietnam are generally referred to by their country :) In the USA it's pretty much opposite, right?

Aah yes that's right! I think most West Asians we refer to by their country of origin/nationality. Though I think there are the same exclusionary practices that exist in East Asian cultures as well still in favor of homogeneity... the specificity may have something to do with subsituting for the word oriental... since I think that was used as a catchall but fell out of usage due to be used as a slur at one point or another? I don't know that it is considered a slur across the board, but it has more sensitive use-cases I think. Maybe that came from the era of Japanese internment camps in the US.

[Denver]

Skin colour is the 1st think g you get discriminated upon

[jaxie]

Skin colour is the 1st think g you get discriminated upon

Well I would enlarge on that and say physical appearance because how someone looks has immediate impact on others in many ways.

[kirklancaster]

I used to have friends who frequently called me '******' 'special needs' in derogatory manners purely for my dyspraxia and autism. I was kind of stuck because it was like an abusive relationship I couldn't get out of. Then I punched them :hee:


:laugh2::clap1::clap1::clap1: Every problem has the CORRECT solution - and THIS was this one's. Well done, Epic.

[Cherie]

This is simply a narrative that you are creating and attributing to me in order to warp what I'm saying instead of arguing against it.

I've never said that it's a competition either? I think you must have either confused my post for someone else's or you are simply reading into something that isn't there. Honestly, I don't really understand the point you are trying to make in relation to what I've said.

My points where very simple, I've experienced more discrimination when people believe me to be gay then if they believe me to be straight and that, in the western world, it's not really possible for white people to face the same issues of racism that say, a black person faces. I've never been discriminated on account of being a white person. I've also never been discriminated against when it comes to being a man, the only times it's come up is in conjunction with my sexuality.

I don't really understand how you got anything regarding a competition from that, I truly don't.

Going back to your examples, a straight white man in a mixed race relationship is not an example of sexual discrimination but of racism and it's ore often because people think the woman is not 'good enough' on accounts of her race. People aren't hating on that man because he is straight so to make out that he is being discriminated on account of his sexuality is just false. I think your point about Asian families is quite a broad stroke of a remark that is dated and not at all true for everyone. It's basically promoting a stereotype as the truth.

I didn't comment on this 'traveller thread' because I was probably busy doing something else. I don't see every thread, shockingly enough. I'm not on this forum 24/7. No one needs to comment on any thread to have their opinion validated in this thread in anyway. What you are doing with that is basically denying people their opinions unless they fulfill your quota and that's quite frankly bull****.

I didn't ask why you didn't comment on the traveller thread when it was going on, and if you didn't see it at the time I find that quite strange as you might not be on every day but that particular thread was bumped on more than one occasion, I asked why you didn't comment as part of this thread, as I posted it on here as it is relevant to the topic that white people cannot be discriminated against which you are going at some lengths to deny, I also note you didn't comment on my personal experience, but I guess I am the wrong colour for outrage..right?

[Maru]

There's a lot of gaslighting that goes on in this section when sensitive topics are brought up, so yeah.. it's going to make it seem like people "buddy up" in order to take charge of the situation, when really it is mutual discomfort in seeing other people in such a common position... people themselves really hate being gaslit... like in our culture we do not handle this well at all... and this is so incredibly common on social media/online in general, so we are all familiar with that form of emotional manipulation from personal experience...

It is also the single worst debate "tactic" that we use, to gaslit someone into taking on a particular stance that wasn't their proposition and then raining projections onto them as they try to deconstruct the prior ones... so yeah, it leads to some unnecessarily ridiculous exchanges between folk imo when maybe refraining from fighting on those grounds entirely would better "level" the discussion(s)... people are allowed to disagree, of course, but when it is implied by either other party that their resolving to disagree is meant to be the perfect illusion, and here's the bait&switch that is proof they are the ones who are the actual oppressor of the thread, then we've already entered that territory... like crazy narcissist territory.

For me the obvious clue is when someone basically says, "Ok here's my version of facts, and here with it I attached my emotional résumé on the subject"... usually a huge red flag for me the debate will be nothing but endless u-turns based on wide-reaching emotional arguments (i.e. subjective truth(s)). We're not only debating what facts are now, we're forced to resort to fighting other people's personal demons on their behalf, and then told they are far too powerful and cannot be killed without specially designed weapons... it's like a bad JRPG, man.

[Cherie]

There's a lot of gaslighting that goes on in this section when sensitive topics are brought up, so yeah.. it's going to make it seem like people "buddy up" in order to take charge of the situation, when really it is mutual discomfort in seeing other people in such a common position... people themselves really hate being gaslit... like in our culture we do not handle this well at all... and this is so incredibly common on social media/online in general, so we are all familiar with that form of emotional manipulation from personal experience...

It is also the single worst debate "tactic" that we use, to gaslit someone into taking on a particular stance that wasn't their proposition and then raining projections onto them as they try to deconstruct the prior ones... so yeah, it leads to some unnecessarily ridiculous exchanges between folk imo when maybe refraining from fighting on those grounds entirely would better "level" the discussion(s)... people are allowed to disagree, of course, but when it is implied by either other party that their resolving to disagree is meant to be the perfect illusion, and here's the bait&switch that is proof they are the ones who are the actual oppressor of the thread, then we've already entered that territory... like crazy narcissist territory.

For me the obvious clue is when they basically say, "Ok here's my version of facts, and here with it I attached my emotional résumé on the subject"... usually a huge red flag for me the debate will be nothing but endless u-turns based on wide-reaching emotional arguments (i.e. subjective truth(s). We're not only debating what facts are now, we're forced to resort to fighting other people's personal demons on their behalf, and then told they are far too powerful and cannot be killed without specially designed tools... it's like a bad JRPG, man.


The worse one for me is 'you and your friends' when that is trotted out the debate is well and truly over!

[Cherie]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/15/acceptable-racism-gypsies-travellers-prejudice

[Withano]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/15/acceptable-racism-gypsies-travellers-prejudice

What was ‘the traveller thread’? I dont remember seeing that one either

Edit: i just skimmed through it. It was pretty sad. Its incredibly common here too.

The news story was that an elderly guy defends himself against two burglars.
People wanted to talk about the burglars being travellers instead.

Its sad. But unfortunately, its expected. You just know that if they were muslim, people would be slating islam, or if they were immigrants, people would be talking about the parliament laws on immigration.

Idk, i havent got a solution, just a complaint.

[AnnieK]

I understand that people will never fully know the impact and reverberations of racism unless they or their ancestors have been been impacted but trotting out phrases such as "you're ignorant" etc will not change that. Instead of insulting members education is the way to go. I personally don't feel I have been discriminated against (even though I am a woman.....and ginger). Racism, sexism etc is still rife and does need clamping down on but it will never be fully eradicated if people cannot talk about it without being told to pipe down as they are ignorant

[Withano]

I understand that people will never fully know the impact and reverberations of racism unless they or their ancestors have been been impacted but trotting out phrases such as "you're ignorant" etc will not change that. Instead of insulting members education is the way to go. I personally don't feel I have been discriminated against (even though I am a woman.....and ginger). Racism, sexism etc is still rife and does need clamping down on but it will never be fully eradicated if people cannot talk about it without being told to pipe down as they are ignorant

Ordinarily Id agree, but some conversations here have been similar to

Black people were slaves
So? Women are sold as slaves all the time, why dont you care about sexism

Education will help, true, but I don’t think Redway labelling a person like that as ‘ignorant’ is particularly unhelpful. It is ignorant, and it’s important that people know this, it would be more helpful if they were told why, agreed.

For some reason, people have been competitive with their own discrimination instead of empathetic to others, and thats pretty sad and ugly.

[Cherie]

What was ‘the traveller thread’? I dont remember seeing that one either

Edit: i just skimmed through it. It was pretty sad. Its incredibly common here too.

The news story was that an elderly guy defends himself against two burglars.
People wanted to talk about the burglars being travellers instead.

Its sad. But unfortunately, its expected. You just know that if they were muslim, people would be slating islam, or if they were immigrants, people would be talking about the parliament laws on immigration.

Idk, i havent got a solution, just a complaint.

Incorrect, many of the people who chose to uphold the stereotypes on that thread would meltdown if such stereotypes were applied to Asians or Blacks

[Niamh.]

Ordinarily Id agree, but some conversations here have been similar to

Black people were slaves
So? Women are sold as slaves all the time, why dont you care about sexism

Education will help, true, but I don’t think Redway labelling a person like that as ‘ignorant’ is particularly unhelpful. It is ignorant, and it’s important that people know this, it would be more helpful if they were told why, agreed.

For some reason, people have been competitive with their own discrimination instead of empathetic to others, and thats pretty sad and ugly.

Yes that's a very good point, I have been guilty of doing that myself in the past but I realise now that it's not helpful at all to do this in discussions and topics never get discussed properly when people do it.

However this thread is slightly different as it's actually asking the question to people if they have ever been discriminated against so it kind of invites people to talk about all kinds of discrimination, surely?

**Full disclosure I haven't read much of the thread yet so I'm not sure exactly how the conversation got to where it did

[Withano]

Incorrect, many of the people who chose to uphold the stereotypes on that thread would meltdown if such stereotypes were applied to Asians or Blacks

...well, i guess we learned that its not always the same people then, but it does just always happen - bashing a group because of individuals is just something that tibb does constantly.

[Cherie]

...well, i guess we learned that its not always the same people then, but it does just always happen - bashing a group because of individuals is just something that tibb does constantly.

It's a good thread so kudos to you for that.

[Niamh.]

in the 90s after an IRA bomb went off in London, walked into work and one of my colleagues intimated that I should feel ashamed, I told him I had suspended my membership of the IRA so he had nothing to worry about

I think everyone suffers discrimination at some point in their lives, same with bullying it happens to everyone its how you deal with it or let it affect your life that counts

Anyway in answer to the question in the OP

I don't think I've ever actually experienced discrimination but I would have had some stuff similar to this happen also when I was living in London in the 90's. I remember a guy telling me he doesn't like Irish people one night when i was out which I found hilarious as he was saying this to me while drinking in an Irish bar :laugh: But nothing serious just a few nasty comments from stupid people

I've definitely experienced sexism but I wouldn't say discrimination really as a woman, in the sense of losing opportunities I'd gone for or anything like that. That's not to say discrimination towards women doesn't happen at all in the west because I firmly believe it does, for a start it happens almost everytime a woman is raped or sexually assaulted

[Niamh.]

I don’t think you people know the impact of what you’ve said about black slavery/racism. You’ve well and truly crossed your boundaries on this thread but you don’t care do you. It’s all about point-scoring and minimising serious issues as far as you and a few other members on this thread are concerned.

With all due respect Redway, you've spent the entire thread telling people that because they're not part of your group they couldn't possibly understand discrimination you've faced which is fair enough on the one hand but you've also told another group (LGBT) that the discrimination they've faced isn't in the same league as yours......... isn't that a bit hypocritical?

[Cherie]

Anyway in answer to the question in the OP

I don't think I've ever actually experienced discrimination but I would have had some stuff similar to this happen also when I was living in London in the 90's. I remember a guy telling me he doesn't like Irish people one night when i was out which I found hilarious as he was saying this to me while drinking in an Irish bar :laugh: But nothing serious just a few nasty comments from stupid people

I've definitely experienced sexism but I wouldn't say discrimination really as a woman, in the sense of losing opportunities I'd gone for or anything like that. That's not to say discrimination towards women doesn't happen at all in the west because I firmly believe it does, for a start it happens almost everytime a woman is raped or sexually assaulted


Nasty comments is one thing, intimating that every Irish person is a member of the IRA is much the same as people equating all Muslims to terrorists now, for every one person that thinks that way there are 10 people who don't so I think we have to take the positives, and not always dwell on the negatives

[Redway]

With all due respect Redway, you've spent the entire thread telling people that because they're not part of your group they couldn't possibly understand discrimination you've faced which is fair enough on the one hand but you've also told another group (LGBT) that the discrimination they've faced isn't in the same league as yours......... isn't that a bit hypocritical?

And are you saying it’s right for black slavery to be trivialised because the same thing happened to the Scottish at one point?

These people don’t see themselves as unfairly disadvantaged because they’re Scottish. They’re perfectly happy to make light of how slavery affects people of colour today to prove a daft point about white men being victims too. And that is ignorant. I’m being as nice as I can but plenty of people in this thread have crossed their limits with things they obviously don’t know anything about. Whether they know they’ve stepped over the limit or are deliberately taking the piss is their business but there’s no other word for it than ignorance is there. Especially when some people on here don’t even want to know that they might not know the impact of what they’ve been saying on this thread.

I love how people are quick to jump on me for calling people ignorant when it’s pretty true in response to this thread. These are probably the same people who wouldn’t see anything wrong with touching a black girl’s hair and honestly wouldn’t see what was wrong in it. These are the same people that laugh at issues like racism and it’s nothing less than what I’ve called it.

That LGBT comment was in response to another person trying to minimalise racism by pointing out the obvious that LGBT people get discriminated against too.

[Niamh.]

Nasty comments is one thing, intimating that every Irish person is a member of the IRA is much the same as people equating all Muslims to terrorists now, for every one person that thinks that way there are 10 people who don't so I think we have to take the positives, and not always dwell on the negatives

Oh yeah 100%

[Niamh.]

And are you saying it’s right for black slavery to be trivialised because the same thing happened to the Scottish at one point?

These people don’t see themselves as unfairly disadvantaged because they’re Scottish. They’re perfectly happy to make light of how slavery affects people of colour today to prove a daft point about white men being victims too. And that is ignorant. I’m being as nice as I can but plenty of people in this thread have crossed their limits with things they obviously don’t know anything about. Whether they know they’ve stepped over the limit or are deliberately taking the piss is their business but there’s no other word for it than ignorance is there. Especially when some people on here don’t even want to know that they might not know the impact of what they’ve been saying on this thread.

That LGBT comment was in response to another person trying to minimalise racism by pointing out the obvious that LGBT people get discriminated against too.

I haven't mentioned a single thing about Scottish slavery so I'm not sure why you're directing that question at me?
I'm not being drawn into an argument with you about stuff I haven't even said.

[Redway]

I haven't mentioned a single thing about Scottish slavery so I'm not sure why you're directing that question at me?
I'm not being drawn into an argument with you about stuff I haven't even said.

I wasn’t talking about you though was I. I’m talking about other people on this thread so you can see that particular LGBT comment in the context of other people being minimalistic about other forms of discrimination in the first place.

I’ve stayed calm for the most part where other people would’ve flipped when it comes to discussing black issues with people who aren’t willing to understand. Like I say those people are the same ones who wouldn’t see an issue touching a black girl’s hair. These are the same people who actually respond with joker smilies when someone’s talking about serious issues which still affect people of colour to this day.

Like I say I’m open to discussing these things with people who are willing to understand but the people those posts were directed at aren’t. And they’re happy to minimalise someone else’s experience to bolster some weird kind of pseudo-racist agenda. But it’s cool. Those particular people obviously don’t know any better so I’ve stayed cool for the most part.

[Niamh.]

I wasn’t talking about you though was I. I’m talking about other people on this thread so you can see that particular LGBT comment in the context of other people being minimalistic about other forms of discrimination in the first place.

I’ve stayed calm for the most part where other people would’ve flipped when it comes to discussing black issues with people who aren’t willing to understand. Like I say those people are the same ones who wouldn’t see an issue touching a black girl’s hair. Like I say I’m open to discussing these things with people who are willing to understand but the people those posts were directed at aren’t. And they’re happy to minimalise someone else’s experience to bolster some weird kind of pseudo-racist agenda. But it’s cool. Those particular people obviously don’t know any better so I’ve stayed cool for the most part.

All I'm saying is, it's a bit unfair to minimalise LGBT peoples experiences to make yours sound worse, like what Withano said as if it's a competition, it isn't, this thread is about all types of discrimination, so all types are being discussed, it's not one of those threads that's about racism and everyone piles in about other types of discrimination to try and minimalise racism, specifically racism towards black people which does happen alot, I agree with you there.

[Toy Soldier]

I wasn’t talking about you though was I. I’m talking about other people on this thread so you can see that particular LGBT comment in the context of other people being minimalistic about other forms of discrimination in the first place.

I’ve stayed calm for the most part where other people would’ve flipped when it comes to discussing black issues with people who aren’t willing to understand. Like I say those people are the same ones who wouldn’t see an issue touching a black girl’s hair. These are the same people who actually respond with joker smilies when someone’s talking about serious issues which still affect people of colour to this day.

Like I say I’m open to discussing these things with people who are willing to understand but the people those posts were directed at aren’t. And they’re happy to minimalise someone else’s experience to bolster some weird kind of pseudo-racist agenda. But it’s cool. Those particular people obviously don’t know any better so I’ve stayed cool for the most part.

You haven't stayed cool at all. Honestly, I get that this is a deeply affecting issue for you and that you have a lot of anger surrounding it, but frankly, the hostility forcefulness in the way you talk about it makes people less likely to listen to you... not more likely. Which will likely be met with a "you can't understand" type comment, and no I can't understand how it affects you personally, but I do know that there are many, many black people who debate / discuss / examine race issues respectfully and academically without resorting to aggressive language and (to be blunt) thinly veiled keyboard-threats.

[Redway]

You haven't stayed cool at all. Honestly, I get that this is a deeply affecting issue for you and that you have a lot of anger surrounding it, but frankly, the hostility forcefulness in the way you talk about it makes people less likely to listen to you... not more likely. Which will likely be met with a "you can't understand" type comment, and no I can't understand how it affects you personally, but I do know that there are many, many black people who debate / discuss / examine race issues respectfully and academically without resorting to aggressive language and (to be blunt) thinly veiled keyboard-threats.
At least you admit that and that’s good enough for me. It’s comments like “slavery happened before your time so what have you got to moan about” that piss me off. I won’t back down in calling out people like that for what they are. They can pretend what I’m saying’s meaningless but for their sake I hope they don’t have these discussions with the wrong black person.

[Redway]

http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/dear-white-people-stop-making-racism-all-about-you-20170921

[Crimson Dynamo]

http://www.yesmagazine.org/people-power/dear-white-people-stop-making-racism-all-about-you-20170921

that is an american article in an american magazine and intended for americans

what has it got to do with the UK or this thread?

[Redway]

that is an american article in an american magazine and intended for americans

what has it got to do with the UK or this thread?

This comment’s a reason why people make these articles in the first place.

Because black people all over the world have the same experiences on social media. That it was written in another country doesn’t make it invalid.

[Niamh.]

Closing this, I will reopen it in a while after I clean it up a bit.

[Niamh.]

OK, I'm going to re open this, just deleted 146 posts though so if it starts going off topic or if people start getting insulting with eachother again then I'm just going to close it for good

[Tom4784]

I didn't ask why you didn't comment on the traveller thread when it was going on, and if you didn't see it at the time I find that quite strange as you might not be on every day but that particular thread was bumped on more than one occasion, I asked why you didn't comment as part of this thread, as I posted it on here as it is relevant to the topic that white people cannot be discriminated against which you are going at some lengths to deny, I also note you didn't comment on my personal experience, but I guess I am the wrong colour for outrage..right?

Cherie, I've just added my own thoughts to the topic and you commented on them. I haven't been reading the entire thread but judging from you confusing white people for being discriminated against based on other forms of discrimination for racism then I can only assume that's what's happened here.

In my eyes, white people in the west do not face anything close to the everyday racism that a black or an arabic person would face. It doesn't mean that white people can't face discrimination on other grounds but I just don't think racism affects us as much as it does the other races.

[Cherie]

Cherie, I've just added my own thoughts to the topic and you commented on them. I haven't been reading the entire thread but judging from you confusing white people for being discriminated against based on other forms of discrimination for racism then I can only assume that's what's happened here.

In my eyes, white people in the west do not face anything close to the everyday racism that a black or an arabic person would face. It doesn't mean that white people can't face discrimination on other grounds but I just don't think racism affects us as much as it does the other races.

if it happens, it happens, saying it happens more to one group than another doesn't lessen the impact of discrimination

[Tom4784]

if it happens, it happens, saying it happens more to one group than another doesn't lessen the impact of discrimination

I'm not saying that, I just don't think that we suffer racism at the same level as other races do and we certainly don't suffer it at a systematic level and it's doubtful we ever will and we should be thankful for that.

[Cherie]

I'm not saying that, I just don't think that we suffer racism at the same level as other races do and we certainly don't suffer it at a systematic level and it's doubtful we ever will and we should be thankful for that.

What are you saying, that as a white woman if I am discriminated against, I should be thankful I haven't got it worse :unsure:

[Brillopad]

I'm not saying that, I just don't think that we suffer racism at the same level as other races do and we certainly don't suffer it at a systematic level and it's doubtful we ever will and we should be thankful for that.

We likely would if we lived in many countries where whites weren't the norm. Just as blacks have it harder in many countries where non-whites aren't the norm.

I don't know the statistics worldwide but I wouldn't mind betting worldwide whites are in the minority.

[Oliver_W]

Like the white farmers in South Africa, they're facing vile racist attacks at the moment. But the "Rainbow Nation" is a long way away from the West, even if apartheid is (apparently) over.

[Withano]

What are you saying, that as a white woman if I am discriminated against, I should be thankful I haven't got it worse :unsure:

We likely would if we lived in many countries where whites weren't the norm. Just as blacks have it harder in many countries where non-whites aren't the norm.

I don't know the statistics worldwide but I wouldn't mind betting worldwide whites are in the minority.

Like the white farmers in South Africa, they're facing vile racist attacks at the moment. But the "Rainbow Nation" is a long way away from the West, even if apartheid is (apparently) over.

You're all just fighting for the sake of fighting now :joker: literally nobody has said that -blank- type of discrimination doesnt exist. It all exists, and its all tragic.

Some types of discrimination tends to be more common than others, and some types of discrimination tends to be more harsh than others... and fighting that back with what ifs and buts isnt helpful to anybody.

It just looks like your trying to minimise the types of discrimination that you cant personally relate to.. it looks really sad.

[Brillopad]

You're all just fighting for the sake of fighting now :joker: literally nobody has said that -blank- type of discrimination doesnt exist. It all exists, and its all tragic.

Some types of discrimination tends to be more common than others, and some types of discrimination tends to be more harsh than others... and fighting that back with what ifs and buts isnt helpful to anybody.

It just looks like your trying to minimise the types of discrimination that you cant personally relate to.. it looks really sad.

I could just as easily turn that around on you - as it has often seemed to me that is exactly what you are doing - simply focusing on discrimination closer to home. I really think you could say that of most people.

[Withano]

I could just as easily turn that around on you - as it has often seemed to me that is exactly what you are doing - simply focusing on discrimination closer to home. I really think you could say that of most people.

Please quote me where youve think ive done anything remotely similar to the disrespect youve shown in here

Everyones history with discrimination are valid. You are literally trying to invalidate them for some reason. It looks sad.

[Niamh.]

Guys I will close this thread permanently if you all start attacking eachother.............just a warning before it gets worse

[Cherie]

You're all just fighting for the sake of fighting now :joker: literally nobody has said that -blank- type of discrimination doesnt exist. It all exists, and its all tragic.

Some types of discrimination tends to be more common than others, and some types of discrimination tends to be more harsh than others... and fighting that back with what ifs and buts isnt helpful to anybody.

It just looks like your trying to minimise the types of discrimination that you cant personally relate to.. it looks really sad.



Not saying that, so no its not sad at all, and who is fighting? all I see are responses on a thread

[Tom4784]

What are you saying, that as a white woman if I am discriminated against, I should be thankful I haven't got it worse :unsure:

Absolutely not but let's be honest here, you already know that's not what I said.

Again, like I mentioned before, you are muddying the issue when I've been more than clear on what I mean.

What you are talking about here is sexism, sexism isn't dependant on the colour of your skin but your gender....obviously. For someone that incorrectly tried to make out that I was making discrimination a competition, you're doing an excellent job of trying to make discrimination a competition.

As white people, we do not experience racism on anywhere near the same level as other races, that is just the fact of the matter and we should be grateful for that.

I've said this a few times but hopefully this time you won't ignore it. White people do not suffer from discrimination based on racism on anywhere near the same level as other ehnicities but this doesn't mean that white people do not face discrimination on other grounds.

[Cherie]

Absolutely not but let's be honest here, you already know that's not what I said.

Again, like I mentioned before, you are muddying the issue when I've been more than clear on what I mean.

What you are talking about here is sexism, sexism isn't dependant on the colour of your skin but your gender....obviously. For someone that incorrectly tried to make out that I was making discrimination a competition, you're doing an excellent job of trying to make discrimination a competition.

As white people, we do not experience racism on anywhere near the same level as other races, that is just the fact of the matter and we should be grateful for that.

I've said this a few times but hopefully this time you won't ignore it. White people do not suffer from discrimination based on racism on anywhere near the same level as other ehnicities but this doesn't mean that white people do not face discrimination on other grounds.

I am not ignoring anything, you are the one ignoring that not all white people have it easy, firstly it depends whether you live in your own country or not, many whites will experience racism as immigrants, or expats, all travellers suffer racism regularly, are you denying that? so this airy fairy idea that whites do not suffer racism is coming from you a person who has never lived or travelled very much outside of the UK, would you say some white Eastern Europeans are not subject to racism in the UK????

[Niamh.]

I am not ignoring anything, you are the one ignoring that not all white people have it easy, firstly it depends whether you live in your own country or not, many whites will experience racism as immigrants, or expats, all travellers suffer racism regularly, are you denying that? so this airy fairy idea that whites do not suffer racism is coming from you a person who has never lived or travelled very much outside of the UK, would you say some white Eastern Europeans are not subject to racism in the UK????

The point is Travelers don't experience racism because they're white and eastern Europeans don't experience racism because they're white.........

[Cherie]

The point is Travelers don't experience racism because they're white and eastern Europeans don't experience racism because they're white.........

they are still white though, Dezzy is saying whites don't experience racism...

[Vicky.]

I am sure white people do suffer racism in places where white people are a minority. Not in the UK though.

I answered sex, sexuality and disability. Sexuality should maybe go, I have had 'looks' and such when out with my ex girlfriend but not been discriminated against as such. Sex for sure, went for a job interview where the (male) interviewer specifically asked me if I plan to have children, as I was maybe 24 or so. I was perfect for that job too, but he gave it to a guy who was useless (and actually got sacked a few months later)..I suspect as he did not believe me when I said I wasn't wanting kids just yet :bored: Its terrible really, they aren't meant to ask stuff like that but they do.

As for disability, yes but it was maybe justified. Again for a job. I wouldn't employ me in the state I am in but I had an ESA medical where I was cured in 20 mins, which was amazing given the hospital have been trying to fix me for 5 years now! So had to go on jobseekers for a few weeks(they didn't want to sign me on JSA as they said I was clearly not fit for work) so I applied for a job I was probably overqualified for, but had one of my bad pain attacks while I was there. I guess they saw me as someone who would be off sick most of the time, which is about right. So yeah. I think that was pretty justified and I don't blame them at all for that.

[Niamh.]

they are still white though, Dezzy is saying whites don't experience racism...

Travelers and eastern Europeans aren't a different race to other white people though is the point, they can be discriminated against based on the fact that they are travelers and are Eastern European but that isn't racism

[Cherie]

Travelers and eastern Europeans aren't a different race to other white people though is the point, they can be discriminated against based on the fact that they are travelers and are Eastern European but that isn't racism

I don't agree, of course it is racism

[Niamh.]

I don't agree, of course it is racism

But they're not being discriminated because of their race though, Eastern European isn't a race, Traveler isn't a race :laugh:

[Cherie]

But they're not being discriminated because of their race though, Eastern European isn't a race, Traveler isn't a race :laugh:

Ethnicity/race you are just splitting hairs now

The recent change in hate crimes say you can no longer all someone an 'Irish' so and so...so make of that what you will


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jan/15/acceptable-racism-gypsies-travellers-prejudice

[Niamh.]

Ethnicity/race you are just splitting hairs now

The recent change in hate crimes say you can no longer all someone an 'Irish' so and so...so make of that what you will

I'm not splitting hairs though they're all white and they're not discriminated against for being white, someone discriminating against an Irish person is xenophobic not racist

[Cherie]

I'm not splitting hairs though they're all white and they're not discriminated against for being white, someone discriminating against an Irish person is xenophobic not racist


https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lers-prejudice

you are splitting hairs and labelling when it all boils down to the same thing ..

[Tom4784]

I am not ignoring anything, you are the one ignoring that not all white people have it easy, firstly it depends whether you live in your own country or not, many whites will experience racism as immigrants, or expats, all travellers suffer racism regularly, are you denying that? so this airy fairy idea that whites do not suffer racism is coming from you a person who has never lived or travelled very much outside of the UK, would you say some white Eastern Europeans are not subject to racism in the UK????

In the west, white people do not face the same racism as other races do, don't twist my words to make up for gaping holes in your own argument.

Again, as I've said before, you are muddying and confusing the issue. Travelers and Eastern Europeans do not face discrimination on the fact they are white, the discrimination they face is xenophobia and in the case of Travelers, their lifestyle.

Nobody is like 'Grr! look of those polish people! White bastards!' The fact they are white are not why they suffer discrimination, it's their country of origin that bigots take exception to.

[Niamh.]

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lers-prejudice

you are splitting hairs and labelling when it all boils down to the same thing ..

That link won't work for me but umm no racism mean being discriminated against for your race, it's pretty straight forward

[Tom4784]

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...lers-prejudice

you are splitting hairs and labelling when it all boils down to the same thing ..

You're oversimplifying things because you don't want to admit you are wrong.

No matter how you cut it, people do not hate eastern europeans because of their skin colour thus it isn't racism, it's xenophobia.

[Cherie]

You're oversimplifying things because you don't want to admit you are wrong.

No matter how you cut it, people do not hate eastern europeans because of their skin colour thus it isn't racism, it's xenophobia.


Whether you like it or not, white people are subjected to racism, you can call it what you like, and I will call it racism, happy now?

[Beso]

You're oversimplifying things because you don't want to admit you are wrong.

No matter how you cut it, people do not hate eastern europeans because of their skin colour thus it isn't racism, it's xenophobia.

But that just sounds like you are saying only western europeans can be racist or xenophobic..

[Cherie]

That link won't work for me but umm no racism mean being discriminated against for your race, it's pretty straight forward

it still boils down to the same think, people experience discrimination and predjudice which is what racism is, white people living abroad experience it, Dezzy can deny it all he likes from the comfort of his front room but it is happening.

[Niamh.]

it still boils down to the same think, people experience discrimination and predjudice which is what racism is, white people living abroad experience it, Dezzy can deny it all he likes from the comfort of his front room but it is happening.

It actually feels like you are deliberately missing the point he's making though.

[Niamh.]

But that just sounds like you are saying only western europeans can be racist or xenophobic..

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?

[Vicky.]

Yup, travellers face discrimination for being travellers, not because they are white, so I don't think its racism. Travellers are assumed to be dickheads who fight all the time and steal and stuff. From my experience, that seems pretty accurate however I really doubt that they are all liken that and I do think I have just been unlucky with the ones I have met, and would not assume that every traveler is like that at all. But yeah, its xenophobia really. Its not racism, unless people are discriminating against them for the colour of their skin :shrug:

[Cherie]

That link won't work for me but umm no racism mean being discriminated against for your race, it's pretty straight forward


current edition: UK edition The Guardian - Back to home
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Roma, Gypsies and Travellers
It’s time to end ‘the last acceptable racism’ – against Gypsies and Travellers
Mike Doherty
As editor of the Travellers’ Times, I know that too many people from these misunderstood communities face prejudice, abuse and even physical attack

Fri 15 Jan 2016 13.41 GMT Last modified on Fri 15 Sep 2017 12.24 BST
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Traveller family at Dale Farm
‘The vast majority of Gypsies and Travellers live on legal sites or in houses, and pay taxes and rent just like everybody else.’ Photograph: Oli Scarff/Getty Images
Gypsies and Travellers are in the news again, and for all the wrong reasons. After last year’s revelations about a secret Facebook group where serving and retired Metropolitan police officers swapped insults about “****ing pikeys”, allegations have surfaced of holiday camp operators having “Traveller blacklists”. So now seems like a good time to take stock of what is often called “the last acceptable racism”.


Met police officers 'used racist Facebook group'
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The facts and figures are stark. Nine out of 10 Gypsy and Traveller children have suffered racial abuse, and two-thirds of children from Traveller groups have also been bullied or physically attacked.

A 2004 report from Stonewall listed some common prejudices: “It was argued that these groups did not conform to the system by paying taxes, they had a reputation for unreliable business practices and they did not respect private property. They were also criticised… for not belonging to a community and allegedly having a negative impact on the environment: for example, they are unsightly, dirty or unhygienic.”

The racism can have horrific consequences. Johnny Delaney, a 15-year-old Traveller, was kicked to death by a gang of racists shouting “****ing gyppos!” Sentencing his attackers, the judge refused to recognise the killing as racially aggravated, despite the recommendations of the police.

One of the few defences against the drip-drip-drip of discrimination is humour
But behind such tragedies lie many banal and absurd acts of racism, the stuff that grinds you down on a daily basis. The incidents that prompted a grown Traveller man to tell me: “I have had enough. I have suffered from it all my life, I don’t want my children and grandchildren to suffer from it as well.” This man had just fallen foul of the local postman’s decision to stop delivering to those he deemed to be Irish Travellers on a mixed mobile home site.

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I’ve heard too many stories like that as editor of the Travellers’ Times. Like the Oxbridge-educated Romany Gypsy man who was invited on to a radio show about unauthorised camps, only for the presenter to ask him: “But you don’t pay your taxes, you don’t educate your children, you won’t integrate, so how can you expect your rights?”

If you must know, the vast majority of Gypsies and Travellers live on legal sites – mostly private, not public – or in houses, and pay taxes and rent just like everybody else. As the rest are effectively homeless, you could hardly expect them to pay for local services. They aren’t offered any – not even the most basic waste disposal.

At the Travellers’ Times office we have become used to people who have lost their dog phoning to ask if we can “put something out in case any of the community have… er… found it”.


Guardian Today: the headlines, the analysis, the debate - sent direct to you
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Then there’s the Irish Traveller mother who is followed by a store detective whenever she goes shopping with her daughters at the local supermarket. “It’s like he’s decided that I am playing with him,” she told me. “They look at me when they can’t find anything stolen in my bags – like, ‘You got away with it this time.’ It’s humiliating. I have never stolen anything in my life.”

One of the few defences against this drip-drip-drip of discrimination is humour. Another Gypsy woman, asked, “What do Gypsies do at Christmas?”, told her workmate: “We stuff and eat all the babies we stole in the summer. Those of us that are not doubling up as elves, that is.”

Remarkably, this treatment hasn’t left the Traveller and Gypsy community bitter or apathetic. The stories you won’t read in the mainstream press include the 90-strong Gypsy Traveller Catholic men’s group that collects thousands of pounds to help the homeless. The sponsored pilgrimages for charity. The Gypsy man who took on the Daily Mail in a libel claim and won an apology and settlement. The successful discrimination cases against pub chains. The young female Gypsy boxer who’s a contender for the next Olympics. The Gypsy copper who started an association for Traveller police officers. There’s good and bad in everyone. Isn’t it about time the rest of society recognised it?

[Cherie]

It actually feels like you are deliberately missing the point he's making though.

No I am not, as I have said before people can label it what they like, but it boils down to the same thing, calling it by another name does not lessen its impact

[Vicky.]

The guardian is full of **** though. used to be my news source of choice, now I see it as a bit of a joke :laugh:

[Tom4784]

Whether you like it or not, white people are subjected to racism, you can call it what you like, and I will call it racism, happy now?

No, because you're misrepresenting what I said. I've said it multiple times that white people do not face the same racism as other races in the west. Not that they don't face racism at all. I've said it enough times that misreading it is not an excuse which means you are completely and purposely misrepresenting what I've said and running with it because you can't argue with what I've said otherwise.

But that just sounds like you are saying only western europeans can be racist or xenophobic..

It does sound like that...If you completely disregard what I said and put words in my mouth. It's always better to read and comment on what people actually say, not what you want them to say.

I never mentioned anything about only western europeans being capable of being racist, that's your own imagination overwriting what I've said. Eastern Europe is capable of racism and bigotry just like anywhere else.

[Cherie]

The guardian is full of **** though. used to be my news source of choice, now I see it as a bit of a joke :laugh:

oh right I see, I hope we can be as open and honest about other communities when talking about them on the forum.

[Niamh.]

No I am not, as I have said before people can label it what they like, but it boils down to the same thing, calling it by another name does not lessen its impact

I didn't say it lessened it's impact but it's still not racism, Travelers are not discriminated against because of the colour of their skin neither are Irish people and neither are Eastern Europeans (not saying that they or any other white people couldn't be, they could of course if they lived in a mainly black country and were discriminated against for being white or whatever) but being discriminated against for being a traveler is not racism, being discriminated against for being Irish is not racism etc

[Cherie]

No, because you're misrepresenting what I said. I've said it multiple times that white people do not face the same racism as other races in the west. Not that they don't face racism at all. I've said it enough times that misreading it is not an excuse which means you are completely and purposely misrepresenting what I've said and running with it because you can't argue with what I've said otherwise.



It does sound like that...If you completely disregard what I said and put words in my mouth. It's always better to read and comment on what people actually say, not what you want them to say.

I never mentioned anything about only western europeans being capable of being racist, that's your own imagination overwriting what I've said. Eastern Europe is capable of racism and bigotry just like anywhere else.

You do not know what people face, you can only go by your own experience so its a very sweeping statement to make

[Vicky.]

oh right I see, I hope we can be as open and honest about other communities when talking about them on the forum.

Not sure what this comment means actually? Or what it has to do with my dislike of the guardian :laugh:

[Tom4784]

You can quote all the opinion pieces in the world you like, it doesn't change the fact that xenophobia and racism are two different things and no amount of twisty turny 'logic' can override facts.

Eastern European is not a race, travellers are not a race, that doesn't minimise the xenophobia and the bigotry they face but it doesn't make it racism either. People don't hate eastern europeans or travellers because they are white, that's simply not true and nothing is going to change that.

You can't argue against facts, this isn't a 'let's agree to disagree situation. There is a right and a wrong and oversimplifying the differences between xenophobia and racism to justify an incorrect point does not make it any less factually incorrect.

Racism is not the same as xenophobia, as I've said multiple times (and have been ignored each time) white people can face discrimination based on other factors but in the west, we do not suffer racism on anywhere near the same level as other races and it's just disingenuous to pretend otherwise.

[Tom4784]

You do not know what people face, you can only go by your own experience so its a very sweeping statement to make

So you have nothing to actually add aside from platitudes aimed at denying me my opinion, k.

[Withano]

Whether you like it or not, white people are subjected to racism, you can call it what you like, and I will call it racism, happy now?

...they could be. Like, it is possible, and has happened.. The examples youve used dont help... for reasons that were explained to you countless of times.

[Beso]

How on earth did you come to that conclusion?

He said people dont hate eastern europeans for thier skin colour...i believe a good few africans or asians will.

[Niamh.]

He said people dont hate eastern europeans for thier skin colour...i believe a good few africans or asians will.

In the context that Cherie was talking about, she said "Are you saying the Eastern Eurpoeans don't experience racism in UK?" in that context that she brought up (not Dezzy) she meant for being eastern European not for being white this is literally what we've been discussing the last couple of pages, otherwise the fact that they're Eastern European would have been totally irrelevant

[Maru]

Xenophobia and racism can mix. Good ol old-fashioned tribalism, but I know for a fact that there are some smaller niches in the US where being white is unwelcome. I have gotten that treatment on occasion leaving my old neighborhood (also minority) and going deeper into certain communities where there is more gangs for example... most are in some specific ethnic group, they absolutely do not like whites.

My husband is regularly targetted in his line of work for his skin color. He's received death threats and had attempted assaults on that basis alone.

Personally, I think most racism is not visible with average folk, at least until you get into certain topics of conversation.. there are non-white friends who will voice something, openly admitting they're racist, but you would never know from other conversations. Like Hispanics, they tend to be less concerned as whites are about appearances about voicing those feelings from my experiences here, maybe bc were always assumed to be the most racist group... but yeah I would say this rhetoric around whiteness == evilness in origin, has had a major impact on my husbands safety for example... he has to take more precautions, sadly, but he does have good rapport generally with folk... but still, doesnt mean he doesn't have to worry about the one that has in their head, hes part of the evil aggressive white man fold... and whether or not he has a shiv, bc they find those all the time... so yeah, I worry about that when he tells me he has received threats... had a guy yank the phone off the wall the other day threatening to bash him with it and strangle...

The administration is much more likely to crack down on him than on that behavior.., that policy is pretty racist really, bc it gives those minorities more room to threaten others, including other inmates.. but white inmates, there is less fear they will retaliate and sue for discriminaton... so yeah, racism does effect white folk in very significant ways... but we'll never hear about this shift bc of the race-baiting in the media...

[Brillopad]

In the west, white people do not face the same racism as other races do, don't twist my words to make up for gaping holes in your own argument.

Again, as I've said before, you are muddying and confusing the issue. Travelers and Eastern Europeans do not face discrimination on the fact they are white, the discrimination they face is xenophobia and in the case of Travelers, their lifestyle.

Nobody is like 'Grr! look of those polish people! White bastards!' The fact they are white are not why they suffer discrimination, it's their country of origin that bigots take exception to.

Why are you so focused on the West. Racism is racism whoever it is against and wherever it occurs and whites could face more racism worldwide if outnumbered by non-whites worldwide. Just because it isn’t under your nose doesn’t make it any less relevant.

[Withano]

Why are you so focused on the West. Racism is racism whoever it is against and wherever it occurs and whites could face more racism worldwide if outnumbered by non-whites worldwide. Just because it isn’t under your nose doesn’t make it any less relevant.

Its still not a contest, no matter how hard you try to win.

[Tom4784]

Why are you so focused on the West. Racism is racism whoever it is against and wherever it occurs and whites could face more racism worldwide if outnumbered by non-whites worldwide. Just because it isn’t under your nose doesn’t make it any less relevant.

Why are you trying to make this a contest?

I'm speaking about the west because it's relevant to the vast majority of the forum.

[UserSince2005]

i get discriminated against every day. im too beautiful for this world.

[Cherie]

Not sure what this comment means actually? Or what it has to do with my dislike of the guardian :laugh:


You made some very robust stereotypical comments about travellers which is your experience, I am sure a lot of people have had experience of many people in many communities who uphold stereotypes as well but if we were to mention that we would be called racist, or xenophobic or bigot or similar, the comment in the Guardian hit the nail on the head in that Irish travellers and gypsy's in general are still not protected like other groups are in relation to being stereotyped and abused.

[Brillopad]

You made some very robust stereotypical comments about travellers which is your experience, I am sure a lot of people have had experience of many people in many communities who uphold stereotypes as well but if we were to mention that we would be called racist, or xenophobic or bigot or similar, the comment in the Guardian hit the nail on the head in that Irish travellers and gypsy's in general are still not protected like other groups are in relation to being stereotyped and abused.

It demonstrates the hypocricy. Irish travellers it seems are not ‘current’ or ‘PC’ enough. Not a high enough moral high ground to jump upon.

[Withano]

, the comment in the Guardian hit the nail on the head in that Irish travellers and gypsy's in general are still not protected like other groups are in relation to being stereotyped and abused.

Why do you think this is? Genuine question.

I suppose my theory would be that they’re seen as more of a community than anything else? and anti-community is less of a talking point.

It is sad though. People should really start focussing on individuals to criticise instead of any group that they belong to.

[Cherie]

Why do you think this is? Genuine question.

I suppose my theory would be that they’re seen as more of a community than anything else? and anti-community is less of a talking point.

It is sad though. People should really start focussing on individuals to criticise instead of any group that they belong to.

I just think people see them as white trash, in the current climate it is not a popular cause to defend white trash

[Withano]

I just think people see them as white trash, in the current climate it is not a popular cause to defend white trash

I wanted to disagree, but then I when I think of ‘white trash’ I think of the ‘hillbilly-type’ on american tv shows (my name is Earl used to use that phrase a lot), and i cant imagine theres much of a rush to defend communities like those either.

I think just calling people out for insulting groups when they mean individuals is the most you can do.

[Tom4784]

You made some very robust stereotypical comments about travellers which is your experience, I am sure a lot of people have had experience of many people in many communities who uphold stereotypes as well but if we were to mention that we would be called racist, or xenophobic or bigot or similar, the comment in the Guardian hit the nail on the head in that Irish travellers and gypsy's in general are still not protected like other groups are in relation to being stereotyped and abused.

I suppose the problem is how do you define Travellers? They aren't a race so they can't be protected as such, xenophobia only comes into play if their irish/romanian roots are brought into it in a negative way and there's not enough pressure on the government to protect travellers, especially considering that most people will define a community by the worst of it while disregarding the rest.

People are simply too happy to see the worst in all of them.

[Crimson Dynamo]

travellers in my opinion get the rep they make for themselves

just like say the Chinese community get a rep for being quite, hardworking and beneficial

[Vicky.]

You made some very robust stereotypical comments about travellers which is your experience, I am sure a lot of people have had experience of many people in many communities who uphold stereotypes as well but if we were to mention that we would be called racist, or xenophobic or bigot or similar, the comment in the Guardian hit the nail on the head in that Irish travellers and gypsy's in general are still not protected like other groups are in relation to being stereotyped and abused.

Fair enough, so I shouldn't talk about my experience of travellers, because its stereotypical? Hell, I even said I am sure thats not what they are all like, but the ones I have met HAVE been like that, ffs one of the guys even punched his 10 year old son in the head for beating him at pool...while I was on bloody shift, then threatened to shoot me as 'its **** all to do with you you slut, I'll do the same to you in a second' when I told him to get the hell out as we don't tolerate behaviour like that! There seemed to be one of them who was 'the boss' so to speak, an older guy who told him to calm down and get out, which did chill it all down immediately. But yeah, not allowed to talk about it apparently :shrug:

[Cherie]

Fair enough, so I shouldn't talk about my experience of travellers, because its stereotypical? Hell, I even said I am sure thats not what they are all like, but the ones I have met HAVE been like that, ffs one of the guys even punched his 10 year old son in the head for beating him at pool...while I was on bloody shift, then threatened to shoot me as 'its **** all to do with you you slut, I'll do the same to you in a second' when I told him to get the hell out as we don't tolerate behaviour like that! There seemed to be one of them who was 'the boss' so to speak, an older guy who told him to calm down and get out, which did chill it all down immediately. But yeah, not allowed to talk about it apparently :shrug:

That's the thing Vicky you can talk about your experience, and you have done and nobody apart from me has questioned you about it, but I guarantee you if I started talking about a negative experience I had about another group using sterotypes I would be called all sorts even though I might qualify it with ' I know that all xxx are not like this' , the world is a pretty stupid place at the moment and that is the point I am making

[Toy Soldier]

just like say the Chinese community get a rep for being quite, hardworking and beneficial

And seriously heavy gamblers. It's true tho :umm2:

[Vicky.]

That's the thing Vicky you can talk about your experience, and you have done and nobody apart from me has questioned you about it, but I guarantee you if I started talking about a negative experience I had about another group I would be called all sorts even though I might qualify it with ' I know that all xxx are not like this' , the world is a pretty stupid place at the moment and that is the point I am making

Possibly, but I doubt you would if just talking about experiences, rather than using it to say 'X group of people did this top me, this means all of them are like that' kind of thing.

[Oliver_W]

I'm sure there are some travelers out there who are respectful to the natives of the areas they park at, never cause fights, and tidy up after themselves when they leave.

I've never actually heard of a single instance of this, but there probably is somewhere.

[Vicky.]

I'm sure there are some travelers out there who are respectful to the natives of the areas they park at, never cause fights, and tidy up after themselves when they leave.

I've never actually heard of a single instance of this, but there probably is somewhere.

Tbf you wouldn't hear of it as such, as...like the papers aren't going to print stuff like 'travellers stayed here and did not cause any problems' :laugh:

And even among people you knw who have experienced stuff, if there were no issues they won't say anything or...they wouldn't even know the people were travellers. I mean I only knew because they made a huge song and dance about how they were travellers and 'hard as nails' to try and intimidate me into doing what they wanted me to do...which everytime was give them free alcohol, which was always a no, regardless of what threats they gave me

[Mystic Mock]

I think that I've subconsciously been discriminated against by older people sometimes in my life, not always meant in a malicious way but it's definitely been there.

[Mystic Mock]

I meant that the older people subconsciously discriminate against me based off my age.

My god the way I put things across on here can be messy.:laugh: