Dublin barber fined €5,000 in transgender discrimination case

[Vicky.]

A Dublin barber has been ordered to pay €5,000 to a transgender man after being found to have discriminated against him when refusing to give him “a short back and sides”.

The transgender man, Lee McLoughlin, told the Workplace Relations Commission (WRC) that when he sat down to have his hair cut at Charlie’s Barbers in Nutgrove Shopping Centre, south Dublin on September 24th last, the barber, mistakenly believing he was a woman, replied: “I don’t cut ladies’ hair”.

Mr McLoughlin told the barber that he just wanted a “short back and sides” and the barber replied “We don’t cut ladies’ hair. I’m sorry”.

Mr McLoughlin said that he then informed the barber that he was transgender and a trans man.

He alleged the barber proceeded to shake his head and stated, “I am sorry, we can’t cut ladies’ hair. It’s a contract that we have with another hairdresser around the corner, so if we cut a woman’s hair we will be fined”.

Mr McLoughlin had arrived at the busy barbers at 1.05pm and proceeded to take a seat with a number of other men queuing and waited 25 minutes before it was his turn.

Mr McLoughlin told the WRC hearing that the comments by the barber were uttered in front of a number of customers and caused huge embarrassment and distress to him and he left the premises “in shock”.

Mr McLoughlin claimed he was discriminated under the Equal Status Act on the grounds of gender.

Upholding the claim, WRC adjudication officer Gerard McMahon ordered the respondent in the case, Paula Smith of Charlie’s Barbers, to pay out €5,000 to Mr McLoughlin.

Mr McMahon said: “I conclude that the complainant was treated differently, because he was transgender when he was refused a haircut by the respondent. This amounts to discrimination on the grounds of gender.”

The barbers said the barber in question had no training in cutting ladies’ hair and had never done so before. They also told the WRC that the barber in question when starting his job was instructed that the business lease prohibited them from cutting women’s hair.


So, this barber was between a rock and a hard place. Theres a contract that they do not cut the hair of females, so he said no, and was fined anyway for this.

What should the barber have done in this case?

And what on earth can they do in the future now, as women will know they only have to put on 'male clothing' and they can get a haircut for a third of the price. So they will be breaching this contract with the other business, and risking fines...but getting large fines anyway if they do not break the contract D:

All rather confusing tbh.

I don't really see why barbers refuse to do females hair anyway, if they are asking for a 'male haircut' as surely its the same?

Maybe hairdressers should start advertising that barbers are where to go if you want short hair, but hairdressers are where to go if you have long hair or want it dyed?! Rather than being for one sex. Would save short haired females a hell of a lot of money, given womens haircuts are like 20 quid where male ones are 5-7

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://gcn.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/irish-transgender-man-wins-discrimination-case-barber.jpg

[Crimson Dynamo]

Looks like a woman to me

what did the barber do wrong?

idgi

[arista]

Looks like a woman to me

what did the barber do wrong?

idgi

Its going to be on TV Debates tomorrow
will the Barber get away with this?
As its Ireland anti LGBT
he may,
Hell of a Fine , though

[Crimson Dynamo]

Its going to be on TV Debates tomorrow
will the Barber get away with this?
As its Ireland anti LGBT
he may

Well the head of the T-Shock thing dyes his hair so he will keep out of this

[Oliver_W]

Yeah, he just looks like a butch lezza to me as well. Being misgendered must suck for traps, but sometimes businesses have contracts they must abide by. In this case, the barber wasn't allow to cut female hair. Maybe he didn't know much about trans stuff, so the words meant nothing.


I will say though, a lesbian friend of mine tell the staff at Officer's Club she's a transguy so she can use the changing rooms!

[Withano]

Obviously a transman wouldnt go to a ****ing womens salon for a haircut. Barber was just an idiot, but there probably wasnt intent behind the malice.

[Cherie]

Its going to be on TV Debates tomorrow
will the Barber get away with this?
As its Ireland anti LGBT
he may,
Hell of a Fine , though

there was a recent referendum that showed Ireland is anything but?

Ireland has a very young population so it is unlikely they are anti LGBT

[arista]

there was a recent referendum that showed Ireland is anything but?

Ireland has a very young population so it is unlikely they are anti LGBT


A Barber is Anti LGBT
and there are loads that hate Gays, still.

Even with new laws

[Crimson Dynamo]

looks a bit like marc (im not dragging him but i can see a likeness)

:think:

[Niamh.]

Its going to be on TV Debates tomorrow
will the Barber get away with this?
As its Ireland anti LGBT
he may,
Hell of a Fine , thoughExcuse me? That's a pretty ignorant claim considering you don't live here so actually have no idea and also as Cherie pointed out our recent referendum on gay marriage kind of proves otherwise

[Vicky.]

Obviously a transman wouldnt go to a ****ing womens salon for a haircut. Barber was just an idiot, but there probably wasnt intent behind the malice.

Barber had a contract that stated they could not cut the hair of females. The contract seems to be the issue, not the barbers. This is a female person, regardless of how they identify, and looking at the photo, again its clear they are a female.

If the barber gets fined for cutting the hair of females, but also gets fined for refusing to cut the hair of females, what are they to do? Just close? :shrug:

[Oliver_W]

looks a bit like marc (im not dragging him but i can see a likeness)

:think:

Marc exposed as Marcia??

[Crimson Dynamo]

Barber had a contract that stated they could not cut the hair of females. The contract seems to be the issue, not the barbers. This is a female person, regardless of how they identify, and looking at the photo, again its clear they are a female.

If the barber gets fined for cutting the hair of females, but also gets fined for refusing to cut the hair of females, what are they to do? Just close? :shrug:

so just to be clear this is a lady who wants to be a man?

but still is a lady

If so how on earth would the barber know this?

[Withano]

Barber had a contract that stated they could not cut the hair of females. The contract seems to be the issue, not the barbers. This is a female person, regardless of how they identify, and looking at the photo, again its clear they are a female.

If the barber gets fined for cutting the hair of females, but also gets fined for refusing to cut the hair of females, what are they to do? Just close? :shrug:

Well, he could accept that transmen are not women like most of the rest of the world

The womens hairsalon would have never got a fine out of the barbers for cutting this mans hair. There was a correct answer in this story, and he didnt choose it.

[arista]

Excuse me? That's a pretty ignorant claim considering you don't live here so actually have no idea and also as Cherie pointed out our recent referendum on gay marriage kind of proves otherwise


There will always be Anti LGBT
in Ireland.

If you , honestly , do not see that
then you are lucky

[Vicky.]

Well, he could accept that transmen are not women like most of the rest of the world

The womens hairsalon would have never got a fine out of the barbers for cutting this mans hair. There was a correct answer in this story, and he didnt choose it.

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a 'womens hair salon'. Barbers have always been for men yes, but every hairdressers I have ever been to does men aswell? Unless the other hairdressers in this story has a contract (like a double edged thing) that states they are not allowed to cut mens hair

[Withano]

As far as I know, there is no such thing as a 'womens hair salon'. Barbers have always been for men yes, but every hairdressers I have ever been to does men aswell? Unless the other hairdressers in this story has a contract (like a double edged thing) that states they are not allowed to cut mens hair

If the hairdressers tried to fine the barbers for cutting the transmans hair, they would have failed.

The barber wasnt damned either way. He just chose the wrong option.

[Vicky.]

If the hairdressers tried to fine the barbers for cutting the transmans hair, they would have failed.

The barber wasnt damned either way. He just chose the wrong option.

How?

[Withano]

How?

Because it would have been the hairdressers that would have been discriminatory, and not the barbers... if anything the hairdressers would have been fined.... but I have a strong suspicion that the hairdressers would accept this transman was not a woman because most of the western world do.

[Tom4784]

There's more to this story then what's been said I think. The contract with the other business would not have overridden equality laws and the other business would not have been able to seek compensation for breach of contract if it meant discriminating against someone.

Courts don't just hand out large fines like this for no reason. My guess is that there was compelling evidence of actual discrimination.

[Crimson Dynamo]

imagine wasting court time for this

unbelievable

[Niamh.]

There will always be anti LGBT in every country not just Ireland and not more so Ireland. I live here, you don't so don't try to tell me you know better than meThere will always be Anti LGBT
in Ireland.

If you , honestly , do not see that
then you are lucky

[arista]

There will always be anti LGBT in every country not just Ireland and not more so Ireland. I live here, you don't so don't try to tell me you know better than me


I have met some Irish traders
I am not picking on YOU.

[Niamh.]

And all these traders told you how anti LGBT they are? HhhmmI have met some Irish traders
I am not picking on YOU.

[Greg!]

After he explained he was a trans man and not a woman he should have got his hair cut. End of. It was discrimination

[Crimson Dynamo]

After he explained he was a trans man and not a woman he should have got his hair cut. End of. It was discrimination

and if the barber thought she was just lying just to get a haircut cheap

what then?

[Withano]

and if the barber thought she was just lying just to get a haircut cheap

what then?

Probably nothing... well literally nothing because he wasnt lying.

But if they wasnt trans, then probably nothing. Maybe the hairdressers would get compensation from the customer.

The barber ****ed up, and others will hopefully learn from his mistake.

[Beso]

His solicitor mustn't be very good at his job.

[Crimson Dynamo]

His solicitor mustn't be very good at his job.

there must be more to this story as it does not add up

woman who looks like woman tells a barber she is a man

he does not believe her and she sues him?

:shrug:

[ethanjames]

interesting case as I can genuinely see both sides I think the hairdresser most likely did not mean any harm from it but if the guy did clear up that he was in fact a guy the hairdresser should have apologised and that's it. pretty big fine for something quite small though but I have a feeling a lot led up to it

[AProducer'sWetDream]

Seems like a ridiculous contract in the first place tbh. It's a bit strange to sperate hairdressers by gender in any case. There are some men with long hair, so would be better served by a barber more used to cutting and styling longer hair (e.g. a "women's" barber) and some women who would be better served by someone more used to cutting short hair (a "men's" barber).

Seems more sensible to have a policy based on what sort of haircut a person wants than what's between their legs.

[Northern Monkey]

This transman doesn’t pass tbh.Barber maybe thought the transman was trying to pull his plonker for a cheap haircut

[Vicky.]

Seems like a ridiculous contract in the first place tbh. It's a bit strange to sperate hairdressers by gender in any case. There are some men with long hair, so would be better served by a barber more used to cutting and styling longer hair (e.g. a "women's" barber) and some women who would be better served by someone more used to cutting short hair (a "men's" barber).

Seems more sensible to have a policy based on what sort of haircut a person wants than what's between their legs.

Well yes, its a bit of an odd contract.

Hairdressers are not really separated by 'gender' anyway, but barbers are generally for blokes and blokes only, where hairdressers will do either sex.

I think its a bit of a disgrace the difference in price between the two mind. I have a friend with short hair who gets it done at the hairdressers and it costs her 15 quid, where the local barbers would do it for 6. She has asked in the barbers before actually and been told the barbers is only insured to cut mens hair...not sure how true that is BUT I don't see why the barbers would turn down custom and make up bollocks reasons.

[Vicky.]

Because it would have been the hairdressers that would have been discriminatory, and not the barbers... if anything the hairdressers would have been fined.... but I have a strong suspicion that the hairdressers would accept this transman was not a woman because most of the western world do.

It depends how the contract is worded tbh. Thats what I meant by the how. Like, the contract may just say woman, but if it clarifies that whats meant by woman in this case is adult human female, not just anyone who identifies as a woman then yeah...and if it does not clarify that woman means adult human female, then possibly the contract is worth nothing anyway, as any woman can go get her hair done there and just say she identifies as a man for the day (not that this transman is doing that, but thats the loophole in it I guess).

Then what would need to happen is a court case to decide if 'woman' means anyone who identifies as a woman (which is a nonsense definition, especially from a legal perspective as 'identity' is subjective and anyone can say anything) or if a woman is an adult human female (including transwomen who have GRCs...as those with GRCs are legally the other sex for all intents and purposes)

Mind given the outcome of this, it seems the Irish courts decided that woman is 'anyone who identifies as' and vice versa. So the contract the barber has is officially meaningless anyway. Which is probably good news as it sounds a bit ridiculous anyway. I do wonder if the insurance thing is true though..like if you need different insurance/training or whatever to cut the hair of the opposite sex. I don't see why you would do, but as I said, I also don't see why our barbers would turn down custom based on nonsense reasons.

[RichardG]

there's so much petty nonsense in this world. a contract defining the type of person whose hair is allowed to be cut? if someone walks into your business and wants to pay you money to cut their hair, cut their damn hair! why is something as simple as getting your hair cut now the basis for another bloody gender debate! this is all so boring!

[Beso]

And all these traders told you how anti LGBT they are? Hhhmm

He might have been buying anal beads or amyl nitrate..They might have told him how anti lgbt the others are.

[Withano]

It depends how the contract is worded tbh. Thats what I meant by the how. Like, the contract may just say woman, but if it clarifies that whats meant by woman in this case is adult human female, not just anyone who identifies as a woman then yeah...and if it does not clarify that woman means adult human female, then possibly the contract is worth nothing anyway, as any woman can go get her hair done there and just say she identifies as a man for the day (not that this transman is doing that, but thats the loophole in it I guess).

Then what would need to happen is a court case to decide if 'woman' means anyone who identifies as a woman (which is a nonsense definition, especially from a legal perspective as 'identity' is subjective and anyone can say anything) or if a woman is an adult human female (including transwomen who have GRCs...as those with GRCs are legally the other sex for all intents and purposes)

Mind given the outcome of this, it seems the Irish courts decided that woman is 'anyone who identifies as' and vice versa. So the contract the barber has is officially meaningless anyway. Which is probably good news as it sounds a bit ridiculous anyway. I do wonder if the insurance thing is true though..like if you need different insurance/training or whatever to cut the hair of the opposite sex. I don't see why you would do, but as I said, I also don't see why our barbers would turn down custom based on nonsense reasons.

I hink youre overthinking it. The barber wouldnt have been fined by anybody for cutting the transmans hair. We know this because the contract would have been presented when the barber was fined for not cutting their hair.

[Wizard.]

There's more to this story then what's been said I think. The contract with the other business would not have overridden equality laws and the other business would not have been able to seek compensation for breach of contract if it meant discriminating against someone.

Courts don't just hand out large fines like this for no reason. My guess is that there was compelling evidence of actual discrimination.

Yeah this.

[Vicky.]

I hink youre overthinking it. The barber wouldnt have been fined by anybody for cutting the transmans hair. We know this because the contract would have been presented when the barber was fined for not cutting their hair.

I would assume what happened in court is that the barber was told the contract is unenforceable anyway. Especially given the sheer numbers of people who 'identify' as the opposite sex these days. However, he wasn't really to know that at the time.

I agree that it should be 'split' by hair style so to speak tbh. Its quite ridiculous that it seems many barbers will turn away female people even though they are asking for short back and sides or something. I do wonder if the insurance thing is correct though. Obviously given this fine its not the case in Ireland, that you have to have separate insurance to cut the hair of the opposite sex, but I do not see why our barbers would use that as a reason if it was not true...so many its just an English thing or something, or our barbers has gone for the cheapest insurance option or something..

[Wizard.]

The whole 'contract' thing is probably bull. I go to a barbers where they cut men and women's hair. I have been to salons where they cut men and women's hair. If you choose to go to either or that's their choice. I have never heard of such a thing.

[Vicky.]

There's more to this story then what's been said I think. The contract with the other business would not have overridden equality laws and the other business would not have been able to seek compensation for breach of contract if it meant discriminating against someone.

Courts don't just hand out large fines like this for no reason. My guess is that there was compelling evidence of actual discrimination.

Again though, the contract in itself is surely discriminating against female people? Saying a barbers is not allowed to cut the hair of female people, presumably for cheaper than the hairdressers would do it for (given the difference in price between the two generally), is discrimination against females to start with, which I think if a breach of equality law :shrug: So they would not have been able to seek compensation either way, it seems.

[Vicky.]

The whole 'contract' thing is probably bull. I go to a barbers where they cut men and women's hair. I have been to salons where they cut men and women's hair. If you choose to go to either or that's their choice. I have never heard of such a thing.
All hairdressers I have ever been to to both men and womens hair.

However I know of only one barbers that will do women.

[bots]

i think this is a fabricated case designed to test the water and allow the hairdresser to do other types of hair. There is no other way this would ever get to court

[Marsh.]

The whole 'contract' thing is probably bull. I go to a barbers where they cut men and women's hair. I have been to salons where they cut men and women's hair. If you choose to go to either or that's their choice. I have never heard of such a thing.

They're rival businesses so it's probably used as way of a truce. You do men and I'll do women that way we both get a fair shot at a customer base.

[Marsh.]

i think this is a fabricated case designed to test the water and allow the hairdresser to do other types of hair. There is no other way this would ever get to court

Trans people have types of hair that needs to go through courts before it can be cut?

[Vicky.]

Trans people have types of hair that needs to go through courts before it can be cut?

I think what he means is the barber wants to cut the hair of both male and female people, and can now use this case against the other business

I don't think thats it though, as he would surely not bring such a large fine on himself for something like that. Unless he did not expect such a large fine I guess.

[Beso]

The whole 'contract' thing is probably bull. I go to a barbers where they cut men and women's hair. I have been to salons where they cut men and women's hair. If you choose to go to either or that's their choice. I have never heard of such a thing.

The irish are known for the gentlemans handshake.....perhaps that is all this story needed.:hee:

[bots]

Trans people have types of hair that needs to go through courts before it can be cut?

No, what I am saying is that the plaintiff and the accused set this up between themselves to blur the legalities of the agreement with the other hair dresser. It's got everything to do with increasing the barbers reach at the expense of the other hair dresser.

[Marsh.]

No, what I am saying is that the plaintiff and the accused set this up between themselves to blur the legalities of the agreement with the other hair dresser. It's got everything to do with increasing the barbers reach at the expense of the other hair dresser.

The trans community is not that large that it would significantly increase his customer base and be worth a court case.

Not to mention if there were that many they'd have faced this "problem" head on long ago.

[Vicky.]

The trans community is not that large that it would significantly increase his customer base and be worth a court case.

Not to mention if there were that many they'd have faced this "problem" head on long ago.

There are not only transmen who want short(or cheap) haircuts...thats rather stereotypical of you surely :suspect:

[bots]

The trans community is not that large that it would significantly increase his customer base and be worth a court case.

Not to mention if there were that many they'd have faced this "problem" head on long ago.

You are not seeing the bigger picture, it's blurring the legal basis for his agreement with the other hair dresser, that's why it went to court. This is not about discrimination, it's about him wanting to cut anyones hair without restriction.

[Oliver_W]

Well yes, its a bit of an odd contract.

Hairdressers are not really separated by 'gender' anyway, but barbers are generally for blokes and blokes only, where hairdressers will do either sex.

I think its a bit of a disgrace the difference in price between the two mind. I have a friend with short hair who gets it done at the hairdressers and it costs her 15 quid, where the local barbers would do it for 6. She has asked in the barbers before actually and been told the barbers is only insured to cut mens hair...not sure how true that is BUT I don't see why the barbers would turn down custom and make up bollocks reasons.

Youtuber Magdalen Berns spoke in one of her videos about how she was refused by a barber, so had to go to a hairdressers. She didn't chimp out and take it to court.

[Marsh.]

You are not seeing the bigger picture, it's blurring the legal basis for his agreement with the other hair dresser, that's why it went to court. This is not about discrimination, it's about him wanting to cut anyones hair without restriction.

No you're not seeing the bigger picture that there are easier and more valid grounds of doing so than creating a discrimination case and getting yourself fined a hell of a lot of money.

[Withano]

You are not seeing the bigger picture, it's blurring the legal basis for his agreement with the other hair dresser, that's why it went to court. This is not about discrimination, it's about him wanting to cut anyones hair without restriction.

...which makes perfect sense considering he refused to cut the transmans hair even after the transman told him that he could. The genius-barber saw this exact turn of events coming, and now they can cut anybodys hair in the entire world.

[Wizard.]

Put it this way I bet if she looked like Ruby Rose and had huge tiddies he would have no problem cutting a woman’s hair!

[Marsh.]

There are not only transmen who want short(or cheap) haircuts...thats rather stereotypical of you surely :suspect:

I never said they did? :suspect:

[Marsh.]

...which makes perfect sense considering he refused to cut the transmans hair even after the transman told him that he could. The genius-barber saw this exact turn of events coming, and now they can cut anybodys hair in the entire world.

:joker:

[Marsh.]

Put it this way I bet if she looked like Ruby Rose and had huge tiddies he would have no problem cutting a woman’s hair!

Yes, because he just hates women! That's the entire point of the story! :clap1:

[Niamh.]

He might have been buying anal beads or amyl nitrate..They might have told him how anti lgbt the others are.[emoji23]

[Beso]

Oh, he was Irish..well, that explains everything....


Not the brightest toothbrush in a magpies nest.

[Crimson Dynamo]

What even is, a transman outside of Tibb

[Withano]

What even is, a transman outside of Tibb

€5000 euros richer and a swanky new haircut

[Niamh.]

Oh, he was Irish..well, that explains everything....


Not the brightest toothbrush in a magpies nest.

Excuse me?

[Crimson Dynamo]

The astonishing thing is that this lady went to court

what kind of piece of work is she?

vile

or transman although that cant be the right term?

[Oliver_W]

While I don't agree with using female pronouns for this individual, taking the situation to the courtroom is pretty vile.

[GoldHeart]

Barber had a contract that stated they could not cut the hair of females. The contract seems to be the issue, not the barbers. This is a female person, regardless of how they identify, and looking at the photo, again its clear they are a female.

If the barber gets fined for cutting the hair of females, but also gets fined for refusing to cut the hair of females, what are they to do? Just close? :shrug:

This sounds pretty stupid and unfair if the barber is being fined and taken to court over something so ridiculous :facepalm: .

Is this person even fully trans yet ?? Sounds dumb & confusing :bored: :puzzled:Or are they just identifying as MALE at the moment , what exactly is the barber meant to say & do "oh okay seen as today you identify as male then I'll cut your hair despite you looking female and sounding female"

Doesn't sound like the barber was malicious ,if anything she's blowing it all out of proportion to ruin his business so basically showing a spiteful side when not getting her own way . And there's no sexism either when it's clearly in the contract that they don't do female hair.

And everyone knows barbers are for cutting men's hair that's just how it is and that's how it's always been . it's usually more basic than a hairdressers which do the full works ie hair dye ,blow dry ,wash , style etc .
Why didn't this person just shut up and go to a hairdressers instead of bitching over nothing and taking him to court ! Extreme much , anyone would think the person was refused from all hair salons etc .

I also feel like people like this go out of their way to be offended , this isn't even a Social justice warrier . It's worse than that ! . It's someone who's fishing for attention for her own agenda .

Maybe if she looked more like a convincing man and sounded like one then he probably would of served her . And it makes you wonder with the whole non binary rubbish , how many will try this kind of thing and then scream "discrimination" when they don't get their own way :crazy: .