Boris Johnson 'won't apologise' for burka comments

[Crimson Dynamo]

BORIS SAYS NO

https://www.theasiantoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/boris-johnson-muslim-burka-ban-telegraph-column-islam-denmark-letter-boxes-bank-robber-721489.jpg

Boris Johnson has stood by his remarks about the burka after the Conservative Party chairman told him to apologise.

The former foreign secretary has been criticised for saying Muslim women wearing burkas "look like letter boxes" and comparing them to "bank robbers".

His remarks have been branded "offensive" and "deliberately provocative".

But a source close to Mr Johnson said: "It is ridiculous that these views are being attacked."

"We must not fall into the trap of shutting down the debate on difficult issues," the source added.

"We have to call it out. If we fail to speak up for liberal values then we are simply yielding ground to reactionaries and extremists."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45096519

Boris standing up to the classic "shut down"

[Alf]

Ricky Gervais said he'll apologise for mocking Christians if Boris apologises for this.

He didn't really, I just made that up

[Crimson Dynamo]

Ricky Gervais said he'll apologise for mocking Christians if Boris apologises for this.

He didn't really, I just made that up

Funnily enough Alf I visited a church today and i spoke the vicar I said "good morning Vicar I love your church"

He said "Its Norman you know"

I said "oh, sorry Norman, I do love your church"

[jaxie]

Well he kind of has a point that head to toe covering is intimidating and doesn't encourage friendly interaction. I wonder if women who dress this way have any friends outside their own community.

The point people who come to the defense of this garb consistently miss is this is forced on women. They are brain washed to believe that 'god' thinks everyone who doesn't dress like that is a hussy. Or they are forced into it by the values of their husband or father. How can anyone claim it is a choice. It's horrible mysogianistic control of women.

Blessed be.

[Kazanne]

Well he kind of has a point that head to toe covering is intimidating and doesn't encourage friendly interaction. I wonder if women who dress this way have any friends outside their own community.

The point people who come to the defense of this garb consistently miss is this is forced on women. They are brain washed to believe that 'god' thinks everyone who doesn't dress like that is a hussy. Or they are forced into it by the values of their husband or father. How can anyone claim it is a choice. It's horrible mysogianistic control of women.

Blessed be.

:wavey:Well said jaxie

[user104658]

So the current rules are, politicians aren't allowed to be anti-semitic (or vaguely critical of Israel) but they ARE allowed to be anti-Muslim and say whatever they want, and that's fair game.

It's getting hard to keep up :think:

[jaxie]

So the current rules are, politicians aren't allowed to be anti-semitic (or vaguely critical of Israel) but they ARE allowed to be anti-Muslim and say whatever they want, and that's fair game.

It's getting hard to keep up :think:

I would say that depends on your point of view doesn't it? I mean if you are taking sides over Isreal and Palestine there is fault on both sides so why are you supporting one over the other? What's the motivation? Everyone there needs a bit of heads knocking in reality.

On the other hand are you supporting or condemning the subjugation of women through religious teaching, forced religious uniform, and indoctrination?

The two issues are fairly different regardless of who is discussing them.

May the Lord open. Can't you see the similarities?

[Oliver_W]

To be fair, making fun of an oppressive garment which doesn't exclusively belong to any religion and which does look a bit letterboxy and bankrobbery isn't really Anti-muslim.

[Cherie]

To be fair, making fun of an oppressive garment which doesn't exclusively belong to any religion and which does look a bit letterboxy and bankrobbery isn't really Anti-muslim.

I agree with this, there are plenty jokes about priests and nuns, (penguins, men in frocks) etc etc etc... where is the outrage? ...

Is something like this any different to saying all blondes are stupid

or all Essex girls look the same way ...

I don't think so, its just people take it upon themselves to be offended on behalf of the muslim community because it's just so popular to do that in the current climate

[MTVN]

^ I don't think you'd get a senior MP who carries a lot of influence making comments like that in a serious newspaper article though

There was no need for him to be so rude and offensive in making his point, he obviously did it deliberately though

[thesheriff443]

Funnily enough Alf I visited a church today and i spoke the vicar I said "good morning Vicar I love your church"

He said "Its Norman you know"

I said "oh, sorry Norman, I do love your church"

You at a church, community service again lt

[thesheriff443]

Boris only spoke about it, look at how many countries have banned it, then it's put into context.

[bots]

I'ts all part of the Boris campaign to become the next leader of the Tory party. Boris doesn't say anything without calculating the impact of it previously. He is aiming it at the anti PC crowd and those with a disaffection for immigrants. He will be fighting it out with Rees-Mogg from that side of the party so it's crucial for him to keep himself in the news after leaving the cabinet. It's all very transparent.

[Cherie]

^ I don't think you'd get a senior MP who carries a lot of influence making comments like that in a serious newspaper article though

There was no need for him to be so rude and offensive in making his point, he obviously did it deliberately though

Yes it was deliberate, this is what everyone is raging about rather than his recommendation that in a free society we shouldn't be banning the garb

[jaxie]

Yes it was deliberate, this is what everyone is raging about rather than his recommendation that in a free society we shouldn't be banning the garb

I find it rather ironic that he was defending the right to wear it and people are still up in their grill about it.

I'm in two minds about the idea of banning it. I believe in freedom of choice but I don't believe this is a choice in the real sense of the person choosing. I do think public face covering is a crime potential but it is also such a negative for the woman. How does she interact with others or make friends like that? A smile goes a long way at the school gate.

I can't see it ever being banned in the UK unless there is a serious terroist crime wave with people wearing it. But I do wish people would look more at the reasons why she is supposed to cover herself and address that whole idea that there is something wrong with her, something shameful that must be covered. That's where the real wrong is and the defense of that is ugly.

[y.winter]

I watched the other day a Q&A video BBC 3 had with young women wearing burka/niqab. It was just ridiculous to be honest.
The notion of trying to weave these obvious misogynistic garments into feminism (it's a women's right to wear it!) is sad and laughable.
You can find this kind of garments also in the far strict Haredi stream amongst Jews and it's AS appalling as it is as part of the Islam (which to be honest, is never mentioned in the Quran).
This is hiding women, dismissing them as an equal human being, subjecting them to caprices of men and overall objectifying them (so men won't get turned on and be seduced by the existence of a woman).
It happens in lower volumes in Judaism and I'm against it as well (coming from a Jewish heritage).
This has nothing to do with the western world nor Britian itself, and I think society shouldn't encourage it.
Religion is not an excuse for everything in the name of freedom.

[Niamh.]

Agree with both your points Jaxie and ywinter but I also believe outright banning them probably isn't the way to help these women either, saying that, I don't think they should be allowed in schools or places where security would be an issue either, I don't know what the solution is to that really

[y.winter]

It's an uncomfortable situation, and I know it's something very Katie-Hopkins-y to say - but Europe should get their act together and stop tiptoeing around these issues.
There is a major problem in Muslim countries and up until recent years it was only Israel's problem, but now it's leaking to Europe and you can see it in 7/7, mass immigration, London's level of crime, Rochdale, Manchester and London Bridge (which I was "lucky" enough to be there when it happened).
Countries feel uncomfortable having major sanctions because there's a fine line between defending their country and getting in trouble with Islamophobia.
Because the world does not intervene in problematic Muslim countries, their people flee to Europe and become Europe's problem.
Yes, there's need to address the terrible problem that is spreading inside the Muslim community. No, the problem is not the Muslim community, but it's poisoned by sub-communities inside them that grow and grow.
Rochdale and Burkas share the same poisonous misogynistic primitive roots. Letting Burkas happen (=derogatory chauvinistic culture) is opening the door for another Rochdale culture. Be it in a Jewish community, Christians or atheist groups - no legitimization whatsoever.
Unfortunately I see it happen in Israel, when the authorities let Jewish men dismiss women in all sorts of aspects of life, instead of standing up to it (fortunately, we have the privilege of criticizing it for what it is without it being called antisemitism). This is unacceptable.
Europe should put their foot down and say - no, enough is enough, not in our culture.

[Niamh.]

It's an uncomfortable situation, and I know it's something very Katie-Hopkins-y to say - but Europe should get their act together and stop tiptoeing around these issues.
There is a major problem in Muslim countries and up until recent years it was only Israel's problem, but now it's leaking to Europe and you can see it in 7/7, mass immigration, London's level of crime, Rochdale, Manchester and London Bridge (which I was "lucky" enough to be there when it happened).
Countries feel uncomfortable having major sanctions because there's a fine line between defending their country and getting in trouble with Islamophobia.
Because the world does not intervene in problematic Muslim countries, their people flee to Europe and become Europe's problem.
Yes, there's need to address the terrible problem that is spreading inside the Muslim community. No, the problem is not the Muslim community, but it's poisoned by sub-communities inside them that grow and grow.
Rochdale and Burkas share the same poisonous misogynistic primitive roots. Letting Burkas happen (=derogatory chauvinistic culture) is opening the door for another Rochdale culture. Be it in a Jewish community, Christians or atheist groups - no legitimization whatsoever.
Unfortunately I see it happen in Israel, when the authorities let Jewish men dismiss women in all sorts of aspects of life, instead of standing up to it (fortunately, we have the privilege of criticizing it for what it is without it being called antisemitism). This is unacceptable.
Europe should put their foot down and say - no, enough is enough, not in our culture.

mmm religion trying to put women back in their places yet again, history repeats itself over and over and over

[arista]

Every news and radio station has debates about his comments.
But until he speaks , himself
its wasting debates.

He is now on holiday.

The PM is not doing any action on this , as yet

[Beso]

Kind of puts the right wing press bias to bed....i would sack boris over this just to show labour how its done.

[arista]

Kind of puts the right wing press bias to bed....i would sack boris over this just to show labour how its done.


The PM is low on MP's
due to her STUPID 2017 General Election
Hung Parliament

[JoshBB]

Just goes to show what a terrible cretin he is. Regardless of a politician's view on burkhas, to insult a piece of religious clothing in such a way is extremely insensitive and prejudiced. I expect the Tories will find themselves struggling to pick up votes from Muslims if he isn't sacked..

[Maru]

Well he kind of has a point that head to toe covering is intimidating and doesn't encourage friendly interaction. I wonder if women who dress this way have any friends outside their own community.

The point people who come to the defense of this garb consistently miss is this is forced on women. They are brain washed to believe that 'god' thinks everyone who doesn't dress like that is a hussy. Or they are forced into it by the values of their husband or father. How can anyone claim it is a choice. It's horrible mysogianistic control of women.

Blessed be.

I think like with anything, when a person has a choice to walk away and they yet remain, then it becomes a choice... any person who chooses to leaves a religion, they don't remove themselves of that responsibility of that "choice". They understand what they did or didn't do and pay the emotional consequences. While I tend to agree with you that religion practiced in an abusive context with isolationist tendencies is very often brainwashing/force-feeding a victim, I don't think that people just simply stay in a situation like that with no willpower of their own unless they're physically forced. That would make them robots... except they're not? They have made a choice, based on the information they know at the time...

Remove the background noise to the more abusive practices of Muslim life and I think that the burqa would be fine if it wasn't in that context. Still off-putting to modern feminism, sure, but absent those privileges, it wouldn't have the same oppressive perception... except to those with staunch views against any religious practice.

I can understand joining a group identity that separates itself from an individualistic society.. it doesn't mean that that person's individuality is forfeit... but what we would call "choice" in our context has more significant meaning for someone in a religious mindset, than simply going about living as we please. Some people feel that a waste of time... absent any purpose or moral direction.

I guess put the shoe on the other foot... if all they can see in our society are people dressing down, putting out most single of their embarrassing life details in the public, no matter how gross or embarrassing, to the general public in the pursuit of some strange model called "personal expression" ... then they would probably feel at a loss. I know sometimes I do. :spin:

[LaLaLand]

To be fair, making fun of an oppressive garment which doesn't exclusively belong to any religion and which does look a bit letterboxy and bankrobbery isn't really Anti-muslim.

:clap2:

[jaxie]

mmm religion trying to put women back in their places yet again, history repeats itself over and over and over

And think about it, the lady covered up at the school gates who can't share a friendly smile or make friends, she can't integrate into the country she is living in. So what is her life? Oppression in her husband or father's home.

I'm quite proud that we are actually discussing it without all the snide comment brigade charging in to put us in our place.

[Alf]

Just goes to show what a terrible cretin he is. Regardless of a politician's view on burkhas, to insult a piece of religious clothing in such a way is extremely insensitive and prejudiced. I expect the Tories will find themselves struggling to pick up votes from Muslims if he isn't sacked..What about a piece of non religious clothing? I've decided to take offence by anyone who insults that. Infact why don't we all sew our mouths up? problem solved.

[bots]

Boris is only talking about clothing here, not the religion. People criticise what others choose to wear all the time.

[Northern Monkey]

Meh,Boris is behind.I used the post box analogy on the 2nd of August on TIBB


http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344150

[Alf]

Meh,Boris is behind.I used the post box analogy on the 2nd of August on TIBB


http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344150Are you going to apologise to the snowflakes?

[Maru]

Meh,Boris is behind.I used the post box analogy on the 2nd of August on TIBB


http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=344150

Oh, Boris is a SD reader. Explains everything.

https://media.giphy.com/media/svb8tKSIpGfHq/giphy.gif

[Oliver_W]

I wonder if people would be choking on their dummies if he'd have said kippah look like frisbees?

[Northern Monkey]

Are you going to apologise to the snowflakes?

Nah.Priests frocks,Jews Kippah’s and Dog Collars have been up for ridicule in free countries for ever.What makes the ninja costume any different?

[Oliver_W]

Nah.Priests frocks,Jews Kippah’s and Dog Collars have been up for ridicule in free countries for ever.What makes the ninja costume any different?

Because it's racist!!!11one :bawling:

[Kazanne]

Load of fuss about nothing again
https://i.imgur.com/JKu025r.jpg

[JoshBB]

Load of fuss about nothing again
https://i.imgur.com/JKu025r.jpg

He's a member of the government, representing his constituents and country, making offensive remarks about a piece of religious clothing in an effort to appeal to the far-right.

Personally, I think it warrants fuss.

[Oliver_W]

He's a member of the government, representing his constituents and country, making offensive remarks about a piece of religious clothing in an effort to appeal to the far-right.

Personally, I think it warrants fuss.

Was he trying to appeal to the "far right" when he defended women's right to wear such clothing?

[JoshBB]

Was he trying to appeal to the "far right" when he defended women's right to wear such clothing?

No, probably not. But that doesn't change the fact that what he said was offensive and an attempt to pander to Islamophobia rather than challenge it

[Kazanne]

He's a member of the government, representing his constituents and country, making offensive remarks about a piece of religious clothing in an effort to appeal to the far-right.

Personally, I think it warrants fuss.

Oh behave he is in favour of them wearing it,he just said it looks like a letterbox and it does.

[JoshBB]

Oh behave he is in favour of them wearing it,he just said it looks like a letterbox and it does.

Imagine being a muslim and Bojo is your MP though. it creates a massive disconnect and a feeling, once again, that they are unrepresented and marginalised.

[Kazanne]

No, probably not. But that doesn't change the fact that what he said was offensive and an attempt to pander to Islamophobia rather than challenge it

Only because some people jump on it as so,which makes things worse,so for me it's too much fuss about the way he described it,I think if most people were asked what it looked like ,they would also concur.

[JoshBB]

Only because some people jump on it as so,which makes things worse,so for me it's too much fuss about the way he described it,I think if most people were asked what it looked like ,they would also concur.

People jump on it because it's plain offensive. They're right to do so. To contextualise, as muslim-hate is apparently excusable in our society atm, would you defend Boris if he had made mocking remarks about a Jew's skullcap? Or a nun's headdress?

& that isn't to strawman you. I just struggle to see why you would want to defend this Boris outburst

[Kazanne]

Imagine being a muslim and Bojo is your MP though. it creates a massive disconnect and a feeling, once again, that they are unrepresented and marginalised.

People kicking up a fuss draws attention to something that really isn't a problem for most,personally ,I'de ban them.If we go to their country we are asked to cover up and most people do,otherwise they are imprisoned or even worse !! so what is wrong with us not wanting these worn on our streets.

[Kazanne]

People jump on it because it's plain offensive. They're right to do so. To contextualise, as muslim-hate is apparently excusable in our society atm, would you defend Boris if he had made mocking remarks about a Jew's skullcap? Or a nun's headdress?

& that isn't to strawman you. I just struggle to see why you would want to defend this Boris outburst

A scull cap does not cover the face and neither does a nuns headdress

[JoshBB]

A scull cap does not cover the face and neither does a nuns headdress

That's not the question. And making fun of a burkha adds nothing to the debate but prejudice.

So, I'll ask again. Would it be different?

[Alf]

Imagine being a muslim and Bojo is your MP though. it creates a massive disconnect and a feeling, once again, that they are unrepresented and marginalised.My MP was John Prescott for most of my life, share a thought for me.

[JoshBB]

My MP was John Prescott for most of my life, share a thought for me.

i'm not super familiar w him but he seems ugly so that in itself makes me sympathise :joker:

[Alf]

i'm not super familiar w him but he seems ugly so that in itself makes me sympathise :joker:He was Deputy Prime Minister to Tony Blair.

[MTVN]

5XTiI1e-wVc

A young Alf shows his displeasure with his local MP at the weekend's surgery

[Alf]

5XTiI1e-wVc

A young Alf shows his displeasure with his local MP at the weekend's surgeryDon't mess with East Hull.

[JoshBB]

OH that. i thought it was gonna be some kind of 'anti-[group]' comment from what you posted

[Kazanne]

That's not the question. And making fun of a burkha adds nothing to the debate but prejudice.

So, I'll ask again. Would it be different?

Did he make 'fun' of it he said it looks like a letterbox and it does,I am not particularly fond of Boris but in this instant I think it's been taken over the top,that is my opinion like it or lump it.:shrug:

[JoshBB]

Did he make 'fun' of it he said it looks like a letterbox and it does,I am not particularly fond of Boris but in this instant I think it's been taken over the top,that is my opinion like it or lump it.:shrug:

Again, would it be okay to make fun of Jewish or Christian religious clothing?

[Alf]

Again, would it be okay to make fun of Jewish or Christian religious clothing?Yes!, it would.

[Oliver_W]

would you defend Boris if he had made mocking remarks about a Jew's skullcap?

Only if people started whinging and spuriously claimed it was "racist". I wouldn't give a crap if he mocked those items of clothing, as I don't actually care he mocked the face coverings, which do look like a letterbox or bank robber.

[Kazanne]

Again, would it be okay to make fun of Jewish or Christian religious clothing?

He didn't make 'fun' of anything,just said what they looked like.

[JoshBB]

He didn't make 'fun' of anything,just said what they looked like.

He pretty much objectively did. If you can't acknowledge that then I can't discuss this with you because it's like debating a brick wall.

Yes!, it would.

Ah, then we share different views on tolerance and diversity my friend.

Only if people started whinging and spuriously claimed it was "racist". I wouldn't give a crap if he mocked those items of clothing, as I don't actually care he mocked the face coverings, which do look like a letterbox or bank robber.

I really can't understand why you would change your opinion based on how other people respond to it. And whether or not they look like letterboxes is your opinion, and you can think whatever you'd like, it just becomes an issue when you're in government and openly mock the people you're supposed to represent. It's a betrayal of Muslims in the UK.

[Alf]

He pretty much objectively did. If you can't acknowledge that then I can't discuss this with you because it's like debating a brick wall.



Ah, then we share different views on tolerance and diversity my friend.



I really can't understand why you would change your opinion based on how other people respond to it. And whether or not they look like letterboxes is your opinion, and you can think whatever you'd like, it just becomes an issue when you're in government and openly mock the people you're supposed to represent. It's a betrayal of Muslims in the UK.That's ok, It doesn't make me think any less of you, and I wish you a happy and prosperous life.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Just goes to show what a terrible cretin he is. Regardless of a politician's view on burkhas, to insult a piece of religious clothing in such a way is extremely insensitive and prejudiced. I expect the Tories will find themselves struggling to pick up votes from Muslims if he isn't sacked..


I don't think it shows him as a 'terrible cretin' at all

What ever that means

[Oliver_W]

I really can't understand why you would change your opinion based on how other people respond to it. And whether or not they look like letterboxes is your opinion, and you can think whatever you'd like, it just becomes an issue when you're in government and openly mock the people you're supposed to represent. It's a betrayal of Muslims in the UK.

I didn't say I'd change my opinion, I just wouldn't need to defend humourous comments about kippah or nuns' habits, because people wouldn't be chimping out.

[Beso]

Some of them have to wear them...


Nāmūs is the Arabic word (Greek "νόμος") of a concept of an ethical category, a virtue, in Middle Eastern patriarchal character. Literally translated as "virtue", it is now more popularly used in a strong gender-specific context of relations within a family described in terms of honor, attention, respect/respectability, and modesty.

The concept of namus in respect to sexual integrity of family members is an ancient, exclusively cultural concept which predates Islam, Judaism, and Christianity.[citation needed]

Etymology Edit
The Arabic word "nāmūs" (ناموس) may mean "law", "custom" or "honor". The Ancient Greek word "nómos" (νόμος) means "law, custom".[1][self-published source]

Gender Edit
Namus has been translated into English from the Turkish language with different meanings. Honor is used to mean namus in the English language translation of Filiz Kardam's 2005 paper on namus cinayetleri (literally namus murders), but Nüket Kardam has written that chastity is a more accurate translation than honor. By the latter definition, honor is seen as an imperfect translation because the concept of namus implies the idea that men have a right to insist on feminine chastity. This is built into the legal system which permits reduced sentences for honor killings.[2][3]

The Turkish language has multiple words to describe related concepts of honor including namus, onur and şeref. Though namus is often understood as feminine sexual virtue or chastitiy, this definition is becoming outdated amongst some members of Turkish society. The official definition of namus from the Foundation of Turkish Language is "the attachment of a society to moral rules".[4]

Women's premarital virginity is still regarded as a matter of honor by some families. These cultural perceptions persist in modern metropolitan areas, as well as in the more traditional areas of the rural countryside. Some old-fashioned customs continue to endure, such as requiring proof of virginity in the form of blooded sheets, or in some cases by medical examination. Though Kemalism has contributed to the rapid modernization of the country in many aspects, traditional sexual mores have proven to be resilient. Even those families who encouraged their daughters to pursue professional careers as teachers, doctors or lawyers maintained the expectation that these women would continue to conduct themselves virtuously as "dedicated mothers, and modest housewives".[5]

In some societies, e.g., in Pashtun tribes of Afghanistan, namus goes beyond the basic family and is common for a plarina, a unit of the tribe that has a common ancestral father.[6][better source needed]

Violations of namus Edit
The namus of a man is violated if, for example, a daughter is born into the family instead of a son, or if an adult daughter is not dressed "appropriately", or if he tolerates an offense without reaction.[7][8][9]

Among Pashtuns an encroachment on a man's plot of land also signifies violation of his namus.[6]

Restoration of namus Edit
According to those who adhere to this concept, a man is supposed to control the women in his family. If he loses control of them (his wife, sisters, daughters), his namus is lost in the eyes of the community and he has to cleanse his (and his family's) honor. This is often done by abortion, murder or forced suicide.

In the Western world, such cases are especially visible in immigrant societies when a girl faces the conflict between her choice of the culture of the new home society and the traditions of the old home.[10]

In cases of rape, the woman is not seen as a victim. Instead, it is considered that the namus of the whole family has been violated, and to restore it, an honor killing of the raped woman may happen (estimated 5,000 victims yearly and on the rise worldwide[11]). The raped woman may also commit forced suicide.[12] In Pakistan, acid is often thrown on the victim's face to disfigure her as an alternative to murder.[13]

In British Bangladeshi immigrant culture and in Anatolian Turkish culture the violation of namus can result in the murder of the male involved with the female family member.[14]

Meanwhile, in cases of namus loss due to the arrival of a female child into the family, infanticide or sex-selective abortion may occur.[15]

Namus around the world Edit
The United Nations Commission on Human Rights gathered reports from several countries and considering only the countries that submitted reports it was shown that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, United States, Canada and Uganda.[16]

In 2002 international attention was drawn to the murder of Fadime Şahindal, of the Kurdish minority in Sweden, who violated namus by suing her father and brother for threats made against her and then rejecting the marriage arranged for her.[17]

Support and opposition Edit
Some Jordanian Islamic groups say that punishment of adulterous wives should be left to the state, while others say Islam advocates that male relatives should carry out the punishment. Yotam Feldner writes, "if honor killing originated in pre-Islamic Arab tribalism, it has long since been incorporated into Islamic society and thereby become common throughout the Muslim world".[18] However, "'Izzat Muhaysin, a psychiatrist at the Gaza Program for Mental Health, [...] says that the culture of the society perceives one who refrains from 'washing shame with blood' as 'a coward who is not worthy of living.'[18]

Hundreds, if not thousands, of women are murdered by their families each year in the name of family 'honor

[Beso]

Boris Johnson has said "women who wear the burqa resemble bank robbers" and I think he has a point.......


I caught a glimpse of my neighbour without hers on the other day and she's a ringer for Mad Frankie Fraser.
**** knows how Boris knew that.:shrug:

[bots]

Imagine being a muslim and Bojo is your MP though. it creates a massive disconnect and a feeling, once again, that they are unrepresented and marginalised.

have you considered the possibility that they think it looks like a post box too. It's a statement of fact about an item of clothing. I've made fun of the pope and his hat, loads of comedians have, many have poked fun at nuns uniforms, comedians have fun at jewish clothing, jewish food ... like bacon etc


It's not disrespecting a religion, its commenting on the similarity between an item of clothing and a postal service item.

[kirklancaster]

Again, would it be okay to make fun of Jewish or Christian religious clothing?

I do not really want to post on here that much anymore, but I am sick of reading spurious arguments which are based on false premises or misapprehensions.

In the context of most posts on here which are lambasting Boris Johnson for his 'anti-muslim' comments - a misapprehension in itself - 'Jewish and Christian Religious Clothing' is specifically worn by the CLERGY of those faiths, the Burqa and Niqab are NOT 'religious clothing' but clothing worn by Muslim women who are 'Lay' persons and NOT part of the Islam clergy.

So to interpret Boris Johnson's comments as 'making fun' of Islamic religious clothing is ERRONEOUS to start with, but to then add 'How would you like it if someone made fun of Jewish and Christian religious clothing' - or similar - is doubly so.

There is ZILCH in the Quran about the Burqa or Niqab, let alone any compulsion for Muslim women to wear them, and criticising such dress may not be good manners - especially hailing from a politician - but it is NOT 'Islamaphobic'.

[jaxie]

Oh, Boris is a SD reader. Explains everything.

https://media.giphy.com/media/svb8tKSIpGfHq/giphy.gif

Do you think Trump is lurking here too? :laugh:

[jaxie]

People jump on it because it's plain offensive. They're right to do so. To contextualise, as muslim-hate is apparently excusable in our society atm, would you defend Boris if he had made mocking remarks about a Jew's skullcap? Or a nun's headdress?

& that isn't to strawman you. I just struggle to see why you would want to defend this Boris outburst

And yet women being forced to wear it because they aren't fit to be seen by men because the look of them will turn the men all into sex offenders isn't offensive?

Really look at what you are defending.

[Withano]

Did he make 'fun' of it he said it looks like a letterbox and it does

Is this a serious post :joker:

Everyone loves being referred to as a ****ing letterbox!

[Withano]

Josh has single handedly destroyed everybody in this thread. Kudos to him.

[jaxie]

Is this a serious post :joker:

Everyone loves being referred to as a ****ing letterbox!

Well no one was being referred to as a letterbox. An item of clothing was compared to one. Do try to get it straight.

[Alf]

All Boris said was "That piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah"


Bag of gravel anyone?

[Withano]

Well no one was being referred to as a letterbox. An item of clothing was compared to one.

The op specifically says he was discussing muslim women, so actually thats quite a lot of people being reffered to as a letterbox.

Do try to get it straight.

[jaxie]

The op specifically says he was discussing muslim women, so actually thats quite a lot of people being reffered to as a letterbox.

Do try to get it straight.

Fortunately a large majority of Muslim women aren't oppressed into a burqa.

[Withano]

Quite a sad state when a male politician can mock the appearance of any woman, without a hint of irony, and others will empower his right to do so. Its sad because its probably because he is simply right wing, and so are his defenders of this incident.

His words, in any contextual settings are cruel and discriminatory. All of his defenders would have had a field day if a leftie said something similar.

[Ammi]

....didn’t he also say that despite what he feels they look like..(..comparing them to letterboxes and ‘thieve’ garments...way to go Boris with those comparisons...)...that the U.K. should not consider banning them like other countries are doing...because banning them would only boost the radical views that seem to be gaining strength...interesting that, that bit is barely being reported or discussed in the media...and some newspapers haven’t mentioned it at all so far as I can see...yep, it’s a dangerous world we live in atm sadly...and no more so than if you’re a Muslim...



...even if he now clarifies the whole context which some media have avoided...the damage is done, I fear...

[Tom4784]

Anything that covers a person's face shouldn't be allowed to be worn in certain public places, I don't think anyone takes issue with that part. It's the comparing them to criminals thing that's the problem. Suggesting that Muslims are dangerous just because of what they wear is problematic and fuels hatred against them.

I also take issue with people saying that basically muslim women are put upon and brainwashed into wearing Burkhas and the like. I think that's very patronising towards an entire subsection of women.

[Northern Monkey]

Criticising certain aspects of a religion or cultural practices or joking about them doesn’t equate to ‘Muslim hate’.

We are all free to do that in the west.

I’d doubt there are many people who ‘hate’ Muslims just because they’re Muslim or Arabs apart from racists.

We probably all interact with Muslims every day and we all get on just fine.That doesn’t mean we can’t criticise certain practices that don’t gel well with our culture or that we even have to like a certain religion.

Religious practices have been the butt of jokes forever.

Boris is a pretty clever fella and i’d be pretty certain he knew exactly the reaction these comments would get tbh.

[Denver]

So the current rules are, politicians aren't allowed to be anti-semitic (or vaguely critical of Israel) but they ARE allowed to be anti-Muslim and say whatever they want, and that's fair game.

It's getting hard to keep up :think:

I am sure the Burka is a culture thing not religious

[Beso]

Anything that covers a person's face shouldn't be allowed to be worn in public, I don't think anyone takes issue with that part. It's the comparing them to criminals thing that's the problem. Suggesting that Muslims are dangerous just because of what they wear is problematic and fuels hatred against them.

I also take issue with people saying that basically muslim women are put upon and brainwashed into wearing Burkhas and the like. I think that's very patronising towards an entire subsection of women.

Really...in 2018....people shouldnt be allowed to wear anything that covers thier face in public:joker:...that sounds ridiculously silly and draconion to me:shrug:

[Tom4784]

Really...in 2018....people shouldnt be allowed to wear anything that covers thier face in public:joker:...that sounds ridiculously silly and draconion to me:shrug:

Do you not see the issue with clothing covering people's faces in certain places?

[Denver]

Turkey use to ban them until the new president cam in

[Cherie]

Turkey use to ban them until the new president cam in

He is taking Turkey back to the dark ages

[Cherie]

Criticising certain aspects of a religion or cultural practices or joking about them doesn’t equate to ‘Muslim hate’.

We are all free to do that in the west.

I’d doubt there are many people who ‘hate’ Muslims just because they’re Muslim or Arabs apart from racists.

We probably all interact with Muslims every day and we all get on just fine.That doesn’t mean we can’t criticise certain practices that don’t gel well with our culture or that we even have to like a certain religion.

Religious practices have been the butt of jokes forever.

Boris is a pretty clever fella and i’d be pretty certain he knew exactly the reaction these comments would get tbh.

Exactly, the problem is you can't say anything negative even if there are negatives or the bigot/racist/fear of brown people (how does that work when every one is tanned after the summer) card is whipped out

[Beso]

Do you not see the issue with clothing covering people's faces in certain places?

Oh certain places, sorry i could have sworn you said "in public"

[bots]

Boris Johnson is facing a possible investigation into breaches of the Conservative Party code of conduct.

The party's code of conduct states that Tory officials and elected representatives must "lead by example to encourage and foster respect and tolerance" and not "use their position to bully, abuse, victimise, harass or unlawfully discriminate against others".

Boris to get the boot?

[Cherie]

Boris Johnson is facing a possible investigation into breaches of the Conservative Party code of conduct.

The party's code of conduct states that Tory officials and elected representatives must "lead by example to encourage and foster respect and tolerance" and not "use their position to bully, abuse, victimise, harass or unlawfully discriminate against others".

Boris to get the boot?

He will probably join UKIP and lead them to victory in the next election :idc:

[arista]

Boris Johnson is facing a possible investigation into breaches of the Conservative Party code of conduct.

The party's code of conduct states that Tory officials and elected representatives must "lead by example to encourage and foster respect and tolerance" and not "use their position to bully, abuse, victimise, harass or unlawfully discriminate against others".

Boris to get the boot?


No he will be told off
and warned not to give out
Confidential Gov. Policy

[Oliver_W]

Boris Johnson is facing a possible investigation into breaches of the Conservative Party code of conduct.

The party's code of conduct states that Tory officials and elected representatives must "lead by example to encourage and foster respect and tolerance" and not "use their position to bully, abuse, victimise, harass or unlawfully discriminate against others".

Boris to get the boot?

Gosh, why are they making such a big mountain out of such a small molehill?

[arista]

Gosh, why are they making such a big mountain out of such a small molehill?


Sure
but he is still a local MP.
He is on holiday
not answering any questions.


All because of his letterbox / bank robbers comments.


Of course in the same monday newspaper
he said face coverings should not be banned in Denmark.

[Alf]

Gosh, why are they making such a big mountain out of such a small molehill?They want him out the way for their Brexit betrayal.

[jaxie]

They want him out the way for their Brexit betrayal.

Spot on.

The Tories are embarrassing themselves over this. And defending an extreme branch of Islam to boot.

[y.winter]

A good read - Muslim woman tells it like it is:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/08/burka-terrifying-defend-do-muslim-women-like-no-favours/

I find it ridiculous seeing people defend burqas with a great passion because "Freedom of religion! Islamophobia!" yet forget that the garment they're fighting for is the epitome of misogyny. No religion and no culture are an excuse to this. One step closer to Gilead.

And speaking about Kippas - it's not the same. If anything, the great problem with Kippas is that the Orthodox and Haredi Jews try to prevent women from wearing it too, especially near the Western Wall. Isn't religious fun...

[Oliver_W]

A good read - Muslim woman tells it like it is:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/08/08/burka-terrifying-defend-do-muslim-women-like-no-favours/

I find it ridiculous seeing people defend burqas with a great passion because "Freedom of religion! Islamophobia!" yet forget that the garment they're fighting for is the epitome of misogyny. No religion and no culture are an excuse to this. One step closer to Gilead.

Did you just .... did you just ignore the fact that making fun of a religion is literal racism? I can't even.

[Maru]

Exactly, the problem is you can't say anything negative even if there are negatives or the bigot/racist/fear of brown people (how does that work when every one is tanned after the summer) card is whipped out

I think it's because there is a lot of fear-mongering around every corner of the media now. Doesn't matter which side it leans. It's all terribad. I think that downward spiral from journalism to celebrity news/tabloid level coverage, where we can draw grand conclusions on the basis of how someone "behaves" to over-examining someone's dress or "way" of speaking. I don't know that it is always intended to be a "shut down tactic" (though I can see that claim). It is a convenience way though to keep conversations from going a way that may displease those person(s)... and a simple way to ensure certain topics remain taboo and controversial I guess.

[Beso]

Am i correct in saying women in iran were free from the burqa pre 1979?

[jaxie]

I am sure the Burka is a culture thing not religious

It's not religious in the sense that it does not say that women's faces or hair should be covered in the quran. It is an extremist interpretation of a passage that speaks of modesty and both men and women dressing modestly. Like all religious books it was written by men in a time when women were generally the property of their fathers and husband's. Interestingly the passage also mentions men not wandering around uncovered between hips and thighs so perhaps there was a problem in those days with getting them to cover their danglies in public? :shrug:

As radio host Majid Nawaz has said "It is the uniform of medieval patriarchal tyranny. It victim shames women for their beauty."

While senior British imam Taj Hargey from the Oxford Islamic Congregation said that Boris didn't go far enough and the burqa should be banned because it has no koranic legitimacy.

Defending it is condemning women to a life of isolation. And criticising it is obviously not a race issue.

[jaxie]

Did you just .... did you just ignore the fact that making fun of a religion is literal racism? I can't even.

Confusing criticism of religion for racism is a common mistake people make. They are entirely different things. A person's belief is not defined by the colour of their skin or race and a religious institution should always be a subject open for discussion.

In the same way that people have the right and choice to follow those teachings, they also have the right and choice to deny and analyse them. That is what freedom is about.

I find it awful that women are subjected to these rituals and shamed into hiding themselves for fear some fantasy deity might otherwise reject them (which seems a bizarre claim when you think about it because he is also meant to have made them so why would he reject the beauty of his creation? It makes no sense at all.) However on the occasions I have met someone dressed like this I have always offered them a smile and made an attempt to strike up a conversation because I feel sympathy for their isolation. Same with anyone in a wheelchair who people often look above their heads or talk to the person with them as if they don't exist.

[Oliver_W]

Confusing criticism of religion for racism is a common mistake people make. They are entirely different things. A person's belief is not defined by the colour of their skin or race and a religious institution should always be a subject open for discussion.


People probably find it hard because some of the prominent critics of islam are also racist, so it kind of gets conflated. But of course criticising the crappy aspects of islamic culture isn't racist.

[jaxie]

Am i correct in saying women in iran were free from the burqa pre 1979?

Not sure on dates without looking it up but I do know that Iranian women once had the freedom to choose, as much as it can be a choice when you are taught/conditioned with specific beliefs, and no longer do as religious garments for women are now enforced in that country.

Go to Iran and get arrested for not wearing head coverings, go to Denmark and get arrested if you do. Go to the UK where a politician writes an article stating we should not ban wearing anything and everyone freaks out. :shrug:

[Oliver_W]

Afghanistan was certainly more free in pre-80s, I'm not sure if Iran was the same. But either way,when more highly religious "governments" took control of those countries, it all went downhill for their rights and freedoms.

[y.winter]

Did you just .... did you just ignore the fact that making fun of a religion is literal racism? I can't even.

You missed the point of what I said (and of the article I linked to) - while Bojo's choice of word was somewhat childish it is not clear racism and not directed at Islam in general but addressing a very specific object in an extremist culture that excuses itself under the name of religion. This is not making fun as in "Hahaha Muslim are garbage" (clear tasteless racism), it does make fun of a terrible misogynistic primitive culture (and by culture I mean burkas and especially what they stand for), which deserves all the criticism in the world. Giving it legitimization will make it become a growing culture little by little, terrorizing girls from childhood into thinking that they are sexual objects that need to cover themselves from the moment they hit puberty. Young marriages, sex trafficking, it's all downhill from there. If you don't think your mother/sister/female friends and relative should be subjected into something derogatory as covering themselves in public from head to toe - then deep down you know that it's sick. When the Quran says that both women and men should be covered, exposing only essential body parts, and Muslim men in burqas are nowhere to be seen - it says a lot. Let's not forget that racism deals with gender as well, it's not religion-exclusive.

I find it absolutely horrific as I've found it with Jewish women wearing Frumka (or in Israels' most infamous case aka "Mother Taliban"). Israel's Jewish public didn't even think of justifying it, because this nothing but a radical stretch of the religion and has nothing to do with Judaism - and so should the Muslim people. Criticism in this case is more than welcome - it's a must.

[arista]

He is back in his home in England
after his Italy Holiday.
Still not talking to any press.


Monday he posts again in his Daily Telegraph Column.


ref:SkyNewsHD

[Ammi]

..Boris arriving back in England and avoiding talking to the press and avoiding that apology for the moment...

http://img1.cache.netease.com/catchpic/7/7E/7E5E94E6A5B1CBE65E927ACC99E11DA1.jpg

[GoldHeart]

Well he kind of has a point that head to toe covering is intimidating and doesn't encourage friendly interaction. I wonder if women who dress this way have any friends outside their own community.

The point people who come to the defense of this garb consistently miss is this is forced on women. They are brain washed to believe that 'god' thinks everyone who doesn't dress like that is a hussy. Or they are forced into it by the values of their husband or father. How can anyone claim it is a choice. It's horrible mysogianistic control of women.

Blessed be.

But Jaxie...
Boris doesn't engage his brain when he speaks :facepalm: .

I agree with what you're saying in most areas , but on the other hand there's still Muslim women who happily dress like this . I've seen some who will casually take off their veil when they think men aren't around .

An intelligent person would of worded things a lot better than Boris the idiot !, we all know Burka's are a problem when it comes to identifying someone , and it's hard to communicate with someone when only their eyes are showing . But calling it a post box isn't going to make people listen to him :bored: .

[arista]

Boris Johnson
took outside of his home a big tray of Cups of Tea
with separate Sugar and Milk for all the waiting Reporters
of course he refused to say anything about his comments
in the Telegraph Paper,

The Reporters took the Tray of free Tea.

Was shown on Ch4HD news.

[Crimson Dynamo]

good ol Boris

[bots]

good ol Boris

this is Boris's method of identifying how big a support he has among conservative mp's to see if it's worth his while having a leadership challenge .... it's all completely planned.