Extreme Christians let child die

[jaxie]

https://metro.co.uk/2018/08/08/extreme-christians-let-baby-starve-death-shocked-charged-murder-7812281/amp/

What is wrong with some people? Where is the compassion in their brand of religion. You do wonder what gets people into the mindset to do this.

[thesheriff443]

It's sad but johavas witnesses have been doing this for years by refusing blood transfusions as its against their religion.

At least they are being prosecuted for it.

We have the worst so called justice system in the world when it comes to child abuse and neglect

[thesheriff443]

It's funny neglect an animal and you could get banned for life against having another one, neglect a child and you are free to have more to neg

[Kazanne]

Where does it say they were Jehovahs Witnesses? Wasn't it was actually about distrust of the American system - a system where money gets you treatment, lack of money gets your family split up. remember the British guy who took his kid abroad for treatment after UK doctors wanted to let the kid die? and the kid made good recovery once treated abroad using methods the NHS said would almost certainly end with failure? remember how the NHS called the police on the guy, remember how much the media portrayed him to be a criminal, a kidnapper, a father putting his kid's life in danger? remember how in the end the guy risked his freedom, everything he owns, his entire life so he could give his kid a better life? Are they being accused of deliberately starving and neglecting her ? if they are proved to be guilty of that then yes prosecute.

[Strictly Jake]

Im not having people slagging off jehovahs witnesses on here as i am one and i know for a fact(i have two young kids) we dont let our children die, a principle in the bible is to abstain from blood so yes we dont have blood transfusions but we accept many other forms of treatments which aree safe and actually advised as being safer by medical experts so much so that people who arent witnesses opt for these procedures too. We have raised money towards other procedures for not just witnesses to use but others too. We care very very much about life which is why as a religion we always are one of the first to help in disaster zones not just our own people but everyone involved. So no we dont let people die we really dont

Nowwhere does this say they were witnesses and we would never allow our children to die in this way its disgusting and completely different these people did this on purppse because of their own views not by sticking to a bible principle. So dont dare come for jehovahs witnesses

[bots]

They didnt seek any form of help when their kid appeared ill. That is neglect, and no amount of excuses changes that

[thesheriff443]

Where does it say they were Jehovahs Witnesses? Wasn't it was actually about distrust of the American system - a system where money gets you treatment, lack of money gets your family split up. remember the British guy who took his kid abroad for treatment after UK doctors wanted to let the kid die? and the kid made good recovery once treated abroad using methods the NHS said would almost certainly end with failure? remember how the NHS called the police on the guy, remember how much the media portrayed him to be a criminal, a kidnapper, a father putting his kid's life in danger? remember how in the end the guy risked his freedom, everything he owns, his entire life so he could give his kid a better life? Are they being accused of deliberately starving and neglecting her ? if they are proved to be guilty of that then yes prosecute.

They are not johavas

[Strictly Jake]

They are not johavas

Well its Jehovahs.

And no they are not so get your facts straight before you accuse us of letting our children die

[thesheriff443]

Im not having people slagging off jehovahs witnesses on here as i am one and i know for a fact(i have two young kids) we dont let our children die, a principle in the bible is to abstain from blood so yes we dont have blood transfusions but we accept many other forms of treatments which aree safe and actually advised as being safer by medical experts so much so that people who arent witnesses opt for these procedures too. We have raised money towards other procedures for not just witnesses to use but others too. We care very very much about life which is why as a religion we always are one of the first to help in disaster zones not just our own people but everyone involved. So no we dont let people die we really dont

Nowwhere does this say they were witnesses and we would never allow our children to die in this way its disgusting and completely different these people did this on purppse because of their own views not by sticking to a bible principle. So dont dare come for jehovahs witnesses

If the only way to save your child's life was for them to have a blood transfusion would you let them have one?

[thesheriff443]

Well its Jehovahs.

And no they are not so get your facts straight before you accuse us of letting our children die

I knew they where not witnesses, I read case before were a mother died after giving birth because her husband and family would not give permission for her to have a transfusion because it's against their beliefs

[Beso]

Removing myself from this thread.

Pair of scumbags...even if it was because of them being jehovahs, surely you would still take your judgement before god and save your kid.

[thesheriff443]

Totally serious now, would a witness have blood from another witness ?

[Beso]

Hangine about first to see if shakey replies to sherrifs question.

[Strictly Jake]

Well its not the only way as of saving their life as their are hundreds of other ways and I would try all of this first and it would take a lot of courage but i would stick to Gods advice. If it was me being in the situation and I would doe if the only thinh that would save me was blood then i would make the decision not to have one yes. When it comes to a child who isnt old enough to make their own decision then yes I would let them have it but it does go against what the bible says. But we do sanctify life. So much so that we dont over excess on alcohol or take drugs things which would harm the body and blood sometimes has harmful diseases in it. We also believe in everlasting life after resurrection so thats one of the principles we put our courage in. None of you will understand as your not in my situation and haven't learnt the things I have. Its hard to understand but I have faith I dont expect any of you to agree with it. I just wanted to say these people are not witnesses I know that for a fact and yes they let their child die for no reason they didnt choose any form of help whereas we would choose hundreds of alternatives first

[Beso]

So you would make the decision to give the child a blood transfusion just cause they cant make up thier own mind..but refuse one for one that can?

[Strictly Jake]

We seek the best possible medical care for ourselves and our families. When we have health problems, we go to doctors who have skill in providing medical and surgical care without blood. We appreciate advancements that have been made in the medical field. In fact, bloodless treatments developed to help Witness patients are now being used to benefit all in the community. In many countries, any patient can now choose to avoid blood-transfusion risks, such as blood-borne diseases, immune-system reactions, and human errors. Surgeons regularly perform such complex procedures as heart operations, orthopedic surgery, and organ transplants without the use of blood transfusions. Patients, including children, who do not receive transfusions usually fare as well as or better than those who do accept transfusions. In any case, no one can say for certain that a patient will die because of refusing blood or will live because of accepting it. This is a religious issue rather than a medical one. Both the Old and New Testaments clearly command us to abstain from blood. (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10; Deuteronomy 12:23; Acts 15:28, 29) Also, God views blood as representing life. (Leviticus 17:14) So we avoid taking blood not only in obedience to God but also out of respect for him as the Giver of life.
At one time, the medical community generally viewed strategies for avoiding transfusions, so-called bloodless medicine, as extreme, even suicidal, but this has changed in recent years. For example, in 2004, an article published in a medical education journal stated that “many of the techniques developed for use in Jehovah’s Witness patients will become standard practice in years to come.”* An article in the journal Heart, Lung and Circulation said in 2010 that “‘bloodless surgery’ should not be limited to Jehovahs witnesses but should form an integral part of everyday surgical practice.”

Thousands of doctors worldwide now use blood-conservation techniques to perform complex surgeries without transfusions. Such alternatives to blood transfusions are used even in developing countries and are requested by many patients who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses.

[Kazanne]

I have neighbours who are Witnesses ,they are lovely people,I asked once about the blood transfusion and they said that we only hear stories of where transfused blood saves lives,we don't hear the stories of blood that actually kills people and infects them,so I do see that point of things.

[bots]

I have neighbours who are Witnesses ,they are lovely people,I asked once about the blood transfusion and they said that we only hear stories of where transfused blood saves lives,we don't hear the stories of blood that actually kills people and infects them,so I do see that point of things.

if people are at the point where they need a transfusion they are usually dead if they don't get it, so its not a very strong argument i think. Yes, there have been cases of contaminated blood, but they are always well documented. People getting aids and hepatitis are well known and in the public domain for example.

Not being a religious person, i find it extremely difficult to condone not saving life on any grounds when there is a clear opportunity to do so and quality of life can be improved.

[The Slim Reaper]

We seek the best possible medical care for ourselves and our families. When we have health problems, we go to doctors who have skill in providing medical and surgical care without blood. We appreciate advancements that have been made in the medical field. In fact, bloodless treatments developed to help Witness patients are now being used to benefit all in the community. In many countries, any patient can now choose to avoid blood-transfusion risks, such as blood-borne diseases, immune-system reactions, and human errors. Surgeons regularly perform such complex procedures as heart operations, orthopedic surgery, and organ transplants without the use of blood transfusions. Patients, including children, who do not receive transfusions usually fare as well as or better than those who do accept transfusions. In any case, no one can say for certain that a patient will die because of refusing blood or will live because of accepting it. This is a religious issue rather than a medical one. Both the Old and New Testaments clearly command us to abstain from blood. (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10; Deuteronomy 12:23; Acts 15:28, 29) Also, God views blood as representing life. (Leviticus 17:14) So we avoid taking blood not only in obedience to God but also out of respect for him as the Giver of life.
At one time, the medical community generally viewed strategies for avoiding transfusions, so-called bloodless medicine, as extreme, even suicidal, but this has changed in recent years. For example, in 2004, an article published in a medical education journal stated that “many of the techniques developed for use in Jehovah’s Witness patients will become standard practice in years to come.”* An article in the journal Heart, Lung and Circulation said in 2010 that “‘bloodless surgery’ should not be limited to Jehovahs witnesses but should form an integral part of everyday surgical practice.”

Thousands of doctors worldwide now use blood-conservation techniques to perform complex surgeries without transfusions. Such alternatives to blood transfusions are used even in developing countries and are requested by many patients who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Do you wear clothing woven of 2 kinds of material?

[Strictly Jake]

I am retiring myself from this conversation I have made valid points some of you agree some of you don’t and never will. That’s what religion is it’s a persons own faith and I don’t wish to have people make a joke of my religion such as the post above no clearly I don’t wear 2 woven materials as the mosaic law is no longer in place but abstaining from blood is still a command in place. I simply started to speak up as I didn’t want anyone to think these people that let their children die as they didn’t want any medical help clearly aren’t witnesses as I have made it clear the lengths we go to for medical help. I think it’s a touchy subject where people will try and taunt me and I don’t think an entertainment forum is the time or the place to discuss these matters and I shouldn’t have started speaking that’s my own fault I simply wanted to make the point that people were to quick to assume

[Nicky91]

I am retiring myself from this conversation I have made valid points some of you agree some of you don’t and never will. That’s what religion is it’s a persons own faith and I don’t wish to have people make a joke of my religion such as the post above no clearly I don’t wear 2 woven materials as the mosaic law is no longer in place but abstaining from blood is still a command in place. I simply started to speak up as I didn’t want anyone to think these people that let their children die as they didn’t want any medical help clearly aren’t witnesses as I have made it clear the lengths we go to for medical help. I think it’s a touchy subject where people will try and taunt me and I don’t think an entertainment forum is the time or the place to discuss these matters and I shouldn’t have started speaking that’s my own fault I simply wanted to make the point that people were to quick to assume

you have every right to let us hear your opinion, and this anyway isn't a entertainment section of the forum but serious debates section, but if you find it too personal, maybe you can open a topic about it on the private chat section if you do want to discuss it

cause you do give us good information about this subject, and made it clear that other people were to quick to assume their own judgement about jehovah's witnesses without knowing proper details and information

[JoshBB]

Yeah that's abuse and they should definitely have jail time.

[The Slim Reaper]

I am retiring myself from this conversation I have made valid points some of you agree some of you don’t and never will. That’s what religion is it’s a persons own faith and I don’t wish to have people make a joke of my religion such as the post above no clearly I don’t wear 2 woven materials as the mosaic law is no longer in place but abstaining from blood is still a command in place. I simply started to speak up as I didn’t want anyone to think these people that let their children die as they didn’t want any medical help clearly aren’t witnesses as I have made it clear the lengths we go to for medical help. I think it’s a touchy subject where people will try and taunt me and I don’t think an entertainment forum is the time or the place to discuss these matters and I shouldn’t have started speaking that’s my own fault I simply wanted to make the point that people were to quick to assume

People mock and make jokes about everyone else's beliefs constantly. God can look after himself, he's dealt out some pretty harsh punishments during the 10,000 years the earth has existed, so I think he'll be ok with me asking about which biblical laws you choose to ignore or follow.

Anyone can mock my fundamental moral or political beliefs without issue. I'm confident in the evidence that leads me to my personal justification, without me having to flounce when I don't like a point being made.

[Tom4784]

I think this thread's a good example that people don't tend to read the article in threads like this. The assumption that they are Jehovah's witnesses have been fuelled by the misreading of Sheriff's post. He was providing an example of religious beliefs getting in the way of medical treatment, not saying the people in question were Jehovah's witnesses.

[JoshBB]

People mock and make jokes about everyone else's beliefs constantly. God can look after himself, he's dealt out some pretty harsh punishments during the 10,000 years the earth has existed, so I think he'll be ok with me asking about which biblical laws you choose to ignore or follow.

Anyone can mock my fundamental moral or political beliefs without issue. I'm confident in the evidence that leads me to my personal justification, without me having to flounce when I don't like a point being made.

oh :smug:

[Nicky91]

I think this thread's a good example that people don't tend to read the article in threads like this. The assumption that they are Jehovah's witnesses have been fuelled by the misreading of Sheriff's post. He was providing an example of religious beliefs getting in the way of medical treatment, not saying the people in question were Jehovah's witnesses.

also it proves Jakey has a good valid point in people assuming that they were Jehovah's witnesses


he was just stating some evidence about Jehovah's witnesses that they aren't anything like the people stated in the article


i find it just silly and not very respectful for the Jehovah witness community that people come to the wrong conclusions that they see them as awful people while they aren't

[The Slim Reaper]

also it proves Jakey has a good valid point in people assuming that they were Jehovah's witnesses


he was just stating some evidence about Jehovah's witnesses that they aren't anything like the people stated in the article


i find it just silly and not very respectful for the Jehovah witness community that people come to the wrong conclusions that they see them as awful people while they aren't

Do you know how the JW's have traditionally dealt with sexual abuse allegations?

[Nicky91]

Do you know how the JW's have traditionally dealt with sexual abuse allegations?

uh no how then?

[Beso]

Do you know how the JW's have traditionally dealt with sexual abuse allegations?

Same as the catholics probably.

[Kazanne]

Same as the catholics probably.

There's good and bad in all though Parmy.

[Nicky91]

There's good and bad in all though Parmy.

that's true

[Niamh.]

There's good and bad in all though Parmy.

The catholic institution covered up and moved on paedophiles though as a rule so no, "there's good and bad in both" doesn't apply to this particular point imo

[The Slim Reaper]

uh no how then?

The church elders would hold a meeting with the victim/victims family, and the accused, and the victim was expected to recount the events and allegations in front of the abuser. This is actually worse than ignoring it imo, because no child victim should be expected to go through that amount of shame.

[jaxie]

We seek the best possible medical care for ourselves and our families. When we have health problems, we go to doctors who have skill in providing medical and surgical care without blood. We appreciate advancements that have been made in the medical field. In fact, bloodless treatments developed to help Witness patients are now being used to benefit all in the community. In many countries, any patient can now choose to avoid blood-transfusion risks, such as blood-borne diseases, immune-system reactions, and human errors. Surgeons regularly perform such complex procedures as heart operations, orthopedic surgery, and organ transplants without the use of blood transfusions. Patients, including children, who do not receive transfusions usually fare as well as or better than those who do accept transfusions. In any case, no one can say for certain that a patient will die because of refusing blood or will live because of accepting it. This is a religious issue rather than a medical one. Both the Old and New Testaments clearly command us to abstain from blood. (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:10; Deuteronomy 12:23; Acts 15:28, 29) Also, God views blood as representing life. (Leviticus 17:14) So we avoid taking blood not only in obedience to God but also out of respect for him as the Giver of life.
At one time, the medical community generally viewed strategies for avoiding transfusions, so-called bloodless medicine, as extreme, even suicidal, but this has changed in recent years. For example, in 2004, an article published in a medical education journal stated that “many of the techniques developed for use in Jehovah’s Witness patients will become standard practice in years to come.”* An article in the journal Heart, Lung and Circulation said in 2010 that “‘bloodless surgery’ should not be limited to Jehovahs witnesses but should form an integral part of everyday surgical practice.”

Thousands of doctors worldwide now use blood-conservation techniques to perform complex surgeries without transfusions. Such alternatives to blood transfusions are used even in developing countries and are requested by many patients who are not Jehovah’s Witnesses.

You realise of course that people wrote the Bible? And it was written in a time when blood transfusion did not exist and probably couldn't be imagined.

[Maru]

I am retiring myself from this conversation I have made valid points some of you agree some of you don’t and never will. That’s what religion is it’s a persons own faith and I don’t wish to have people make a joke of my religion such as the post above no clearly I don’t wear 2 woven materials as the mosaic law is no longer in place but abstaining from blood is still a command in place. I simply started to speak up as I didn’t want anyone to think these people that let their children die as they didn’t want any medical help clearly aren’t witnesses as I have made it clear the lengths we go to for medical help. I think it’s a touchy subject where people will try and taunt me and I don’t think an entertainment forum is the time or the place to discuss these matters and I shouldn’t have started speaking that’s my own fault I simply wanted to make the point that people were to quick to assume

We all have our convictions, Jake. For some, it's anti-religion. That's comes part of the deal of having faith in this time period (as I'm sure you probably already know)... seems we all confess rather regularly our worst beliefs (or sins) on this board in order to "reconcile" our social placements with other. So I don't think you should feel bad to share your perspective on things. These collisions will occur all throughout life, so why not discuss them? Certainty is not as easy to claim as some would have others think.

I don't necessarily agree with the "living your truth" phrase (an Oprah thing I think?). I feel that expression is too vague and preachy for me. However, I do feel we all have to make "peace" with the uncertainties in life one way or another and for some that leads directly to their path to faith... and we all do it in our own way and in our own time. I do respect others in the sense that we are all mutually guided on that same principle, whether we choose to have faith or not... in that respect...

It's when people are motivated by greed and the power that is felt by abusing others that that I tend to worry about that "mutual-ness". Obviously that tendency be used to misled quite a few people to either do terrible things to themselves or to others, which is the opposite of what I think you've expressed here... which is really the "point" of the OP.

Anyway, I don't suggest you avoid SD or even this thread. I think just consider how you contribute on the thread topics, make sure it is worth your time and just stop worrying about the trolls... they will never go away so nor should we. Other people here do read your posts, even if they don't have your capability with words (which I think are clear and well-written)... so that's what more important I think. We don't all have to agree on every point and that is OK. :love:

[Maru]

The original linked article didn't seem to explain everything to me, so I did a web search...

Source: https://people.com/crime/michigan-parents-religious-reasons-starve-daughter/amp/

A Michigan couple reacted with visible shock — the dad’s mouth hanging open, the mom in tears — as they were arraigned Monday on charges of felony murder and first-degree child abuse in connection with the Thursday starvation death of their 10-month-old daughter.

Tatiana Fusari and Seth Welch, both 27, appeared via video in 63rd District Court as Kent County Judge Sara Smolenski detailed the allegations against them.

As Smolenski explained the charges, Welch first shook his head in apparent disbelief before his mouth dropped as he heard the possible sentence they face.

Both parents are being held without bail and, if convicted, could spend the rest of their lives in prison.

Their daughter Mary Anne Welch was found dead last week inside a crib in the couple’s Solon Township home, according to authorities. She died from both malnutrition and dehydration, prosecutors confirm to PEOPLE.

Welch allegedly awoke that morning to find the girl lifeless. Investigators accuse Welch and Fusari of failing to seek medical treatment for Mary, insisting they had to have known she was unwell.

Welch allegedly has a distrust of medical professionals and cited religious reasons when pressed on why he did not take Mary in to be treated, according to a criminal affidavit obtained by PEOPLE.

“During interviews with both parents, admissions were made that they were aware of Mary Welch’s skinny appearance and low weight for at least one month prior to this date,” the affidavit reads.

Investigators further contend in the affidavit that “Fusari admitted during the interview that they failed to reach out for medical help with their daughter for fear of having her children removed by Child Protective Services, lack of faith and trust in the medical services and religious reasons.”

The couple have two other children, who are now staying with Welch’s parents.

Welch previously documented his religious beliefs in videos posted to his Facebook page, where he also recently revealed Fusari is pregnant with their fourth child.

In one video, he said that doctors are “priesthoods of the medical cult.” He also spoke out against vaccines in a different clip: “The righteous shall live by faith. It’s God who is sovereign over disease and those sorts of things and, of course, ultimately deaths.”

Hours after Mary’s death, he wrote that his “heart is about shattered” and that “Tati and I are the worst parents ever.”

“Just numb inside right now,” the post continued. “And I’m really enjoying the loving embrace of an isolation cell from the cops and government employees who keep assuring me ‘they are only here to help.’ ”

Sounds like straight fanaticism. It seems a bit ironic too considering how much religion (Christianity particularly) has always had a place in our hospitals/medical system in the US. They could've visited a Christian hospital if they were were worried about their practices being disrespected?...

[Strictly Jake]

Maru thanks for your kind words to me above and for those that gave their opinions back to me whether you agree or not what makes the world and being human interesting is that everyone on here will have their own opinion on a subject and have varying interests i think in some ways that can make a forum great. The problem is when it borders on arguments and having to defend beliefs noone needs to defend thier own opinion and thats simply why i retracted as i know what i know and feel what i feel and noone can change that and i dont wish to change someone elses opinion I could see where the topic was heading so i stopped and allowed the topic to get back to the point of the article

I think all of us can agree on the point that these people did not have an excuse what they did was wrong they didnt seek any form of help whereas yes i cant have a blood transfusion i would definitely try everything else available in my absolute power to have my life saved or those of my precious children who are the world to me

[Cherie]

The catholic institution covered up and moved on paedophiles though as a rule so no, "there's good and bad in both" doesn't apply to this particular point imo

It does though, because what management does in any organisation doesn’t always filter down to the workers so you can’t say they are all the same

[thesheriff443]

Maru thanks for your kind words to me above and for those that gave their opinions back to me whether you agree or not what makes the world and being human interesting is that everyone on here will have their own opinion on a subject and have varying interests i think in some ways that can make a forum great. The problem is when it borders on arguments and having to defend beliefs noone needs to defend thier own opinion and thats simply why i retracted as i know what i know and feel what i feel and noone can change that and i dont wish to change someone elses opinion I could see where the topic was heading so i stopped and allowed the topic to get back to the point of the article

I think all of us can agree on the point that these people did not have an excuse what they did was wrong they didnt seek any form of help whereas yes i cant have a blood transfusion i would definitely try everything else available in my absolute power to have my life saved or those of my precious children who are the world to me

First of all I have nothing against your religion or beliefs, but I like to use logic, if blood is not pure, that means your own blood is not pure regardless of religion.

[Niamh.]

It does though, because what management does in any organisation doesn’t always filter down to the workers so you can’t say they are all the sameIt wasn't just management though was it? Or was it all managers running the launderies or burying those babies in Tuam too?