US boy, 9, killed himself after homophobic bullying

[Tom4784]

A nine-year-old boy has killed himself after enduring four days of homophobic bullying at school in Denver, Colorado, his mother says.

Leia Pierce told KDVR-TV that her son, Jamel Myles, revealed to her over the summer that he was gay.

She said Jamel wanted to go to school and tell his classmates because he was "proud" to be gay.

Denver Public Schools (DPS) say crisis counsellors have been made available to students at Jamel's elementary school.

The school system sent letters to families on Friday about the additional counselling services for students.

The letter, addressed to the families of Joe Shoemaker Elementary School pupils, says Jamel's death "is an unexpected loss for our school community" and offers parents signs of stress to watch for in their children.

DPS Spokesman Will Jones told the BBC on Monday that the district is "deeply committed to ensuring that all members of the school community are treated with dignity and respect, regardless of sexual orientation, gender identity, or transgender status".

His statement added that administrators have taken steps "ensuring that our LGBTQ+ students can pursue their education with dignity".

Policies and practices, Mr Jones said, include anti-bullying programmes and "guidance materials that fully respect gender identity (including use of preferred pronouns and restrooms)".

Denver police are investigating the boy's death as a suicide.

Jamel's body was found at home on Thursday, Ms Pierce told local media.

He had begun attending fourth grade at the Joe Shoemaker Elementary School on Monday, she said.

"My son told my oldest daughter the kids at school told him to kill himself," Ms Pierce said.

"I'm just sad he didn't come to me. I'm so upset that he thought that was his option."

She said that when he had told her he was gay, he looked "so scared", but she reassured him she still loved him.

Ms Pierce said she hopes her son's death can raise awareness of the effects of bullying.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-45323933

A horrid situation that is all too common. The School has since released platitude laden PR statements to cover their own arses but it looks like nothing's going to change. So sick of seeing stories like this and nothing happening as a response to it. Most schools would rather brush bullying under the table rather than deal with it and that attitude costs lives.

[Glenn.]

Disgraceful

[Niamh.]

9 years old? That's terrible, so sad.

[RileyH]

Omg that's horrific :worry: So young :(

[ethanjames]

this is so horrible i hate people ugh

[Rufus]

People are sickening

[AnnieK]

Just awful, the poor boy thinking that was his only way out, his poor family not knowing how he was feeling. I hope the parents of his classmates are asking some very tough questions of their children.

:sad:

[Beso]

tragic story and one i worry about.


If kids start getting this sort of abuse on fb or twitter etc, it could lead to them harming themselves.......seemingly 1 in 4 teenagers self harm....which is really upsetting to hear.

[thesheriff443]

It’s all too common and schools are a breeding ground for it,

[Underscore]

RIP...

Schools are toxic for LGBT people and this issue needs addressing with full force.

[Tom4784]

tragic story and one i worry about.


If kids start getting this sort of abuse on fb or twitter etc, it could lead to them harming themselves.......seemingly 1 in 4 teenagers self harm....which is really upsetting to hear.

Yup and a lot of the self harm/suicide stats get worse when you add in LGBT victims to the mix since suicide is basically an epidemic for LGBT people.

Despite this though, not much will change. A lot of schools don't want to be known as a place where bullying occurs so they often try to sweep it under the rug or pretend it doesn't happen. While schools place their image and reputation above their students' wellbeing, incidents like this will continue to happen.

[arista]

Yes its more tough in USA.
Sad story

[Cherie]

tragic, and yes self harming is much higher among kids who identify as gay or bi

[Greg!]

So heartbreaking. Makes me sick that people especially kids can be so horrible

[JoshBB]

Keep seeing this on twitter, it's so sad. I only hope this story can be a catalyst for change, and there is some kind of shift in behaviour, otherwise the death was for nothing.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If it did not happen in the school not sure what the school could do?

[arista]

So heartbreaking. Makes me sick that people especially kids can be so horrible


Colorado
more Hard
than California.

[Shaun]

I find it horrifying that a 9 year old could have the concept of suicide. Really depressing news.

[Garfie]

A horrid situation that is all too common. The School has since released platitude laden PR statements to cover their own arses but it looks like nothing's going to change. So sick of seeing stories like this and nothing happening as a response to it. Most schools would rather brush bullying under the table rather than deal with it and that attitude costs lives.

Horrendous news. It broke my heart when I read about this.

However, I think it is far too simplistic to blame schools, particularly in a case like this in which constant homophobic attitudes and behaviours are the cause. This is a societal problem, and this is where change and action needs to be taken as a matter of urgency. Yes, of course and without a doubt, schools must play their part, but they cannot resolve deep-rooted issues in society; they basically deal with the fallout.

I think, too often, schools are unfairly blamed and too much is expected of them with very restricted funds, budgets and training. Schools (and teachers) are basically there to teach skills and subjects as outlined by the government on the national curriculum, the results of which they are judged. There is very little time made available for staff in the school day to do anything extra than that, and the first thing cut when budgets are slashed, is any time to work effectively with children who persist in bullying behaviour. And, often with bullies, schools do not get the support of their parents, and without that support the behaviour will be repeated. A detention or a couple of days exclusion will not change the mindset of a bully; in fact, many see an exclusion as some kind of reward as they get a few days off. What other powers do schools have in reality, especially when local authorities do not support any meaningful exclusions, and parents are allowed to appeal.

I think a greater amount of responsibility should fall on parents to prevent bullying behaviour in their children. The truth is, children come into schools with the ideas, attitudes and behaviour that they have learnt is acceptable at home, and they return to that same environment at the end of the day. It is only in the home that these issues can truly be tackled.

Parents need to bring up their children with a focus on good morals, respect for others, compassion, etc, and without prejudiced attitudes. And they must also ensure that they take effective measures to address any unkind, anti-social or bullying behaviour in their children, whether that be verbal, mental, emotional or physical. It is that and the wider society's views which will truly prevent bullying.

[Twosugars]

^ great post, Garfie

Idk what can be done. I mean kids will bully for whatever reason tbf, being gay just one of many. Remember in my class one guy was bullied for being ginger and another for being a Jehova's Witness, yet another for having a brother with mental health problems. Not to mention that any physical imperfection like crooked teeth or being fat were a big no-no.
Maybe some sort of anonymous reporting service for kids? Idk...

[UserSince2005]

9 year olds shouldnt be concerned about there sexuality at all.

What made him think he was gay? because he was told his was gay because he acted camp?

I think he should have just been a kid and not been encouraged to be obbessessed with his sexuality at such a young age.

such a sad story. 9 is far too young

[Moniqua]

RIP...

Schools are toxic for LGBT people and this issue needs addressing with full force.

x2

RIP </3

[Maru]

So horrible.

Somewhat hard to believe at 9 they (his family) didn't notice some sort of issue though... it's not like 9 year olds don't tend hide their feelings that well??... of course that could've also led to his bullying. It's not always just a matter of whether his students were homophobic or not... kids in our society will pick on and flesh out any weakness they can think of in other people as long as they can get away with it... it's a problem with society overall, but I don't think unique to the gay community... I was bullied badly growing up, sometimes over my color, but particularly my short stature... and I didn't consider it to be racism along the lines of outright hatred... it was more that I stood out and so it was easier to isolate me from the rest of the group and reinforce pecking order... of course, I was nerdy and tomboyish to a degree, so that didn't really help either :skull:...

Smaller schools and smaller class sizes also help tremendously with this issue... I was in an Honors program when I was older and it eliminated most of my problem(s). Also group seating where everyone is forced to face each other in a circle... I never experienced much bullying in those programs. Those kids that did bully me, in high school apparently remembered, because I had a few people sign my yearbook as an apology... I think because I didn't really take it to heart so much I made a big deal of it and so a few of my bullies left apologies in my yearbook :skull: It's hilarious in retrospect...

[Maru]

I find it horrifying that a 9 year old could have the concept of suicide. Really depressing news.

Yeah, but ironically much of that is due to increased awareness on mental health and maybe the internet, how that magnifies virtually everything... when I was young, it wasn't so stigmatized... I think by early-teens, we started to hear about depression much more frequently, about the time the internet started to be more mainstream... interestingly enough..

[Ammi]

Horrendous news. It broke my heart when I read about this.

However, I think it is far too simplistic to blame schools, particularly in a case like this in which constant homophobic attitudes and behaviours are the cause. This is a societal problem, and this is where change and action needs to be taken as a matter of urgency. Yes, of course and without a doubt, schools must play their part, but they cannot resolve deep-rooted issues in society; they basically deal with the fallout.

I think, too often, schools are unfairly blamed and too much is expected of them with very restricted funds, budgets and training. Schools (and teachers) are basically there to teach skills and subjects as outlined by the government on the national curriculum, the results of which they are judged. There is very little time made available for staff in the school day to do anything extra than that, and the first thing cut when budgets are slashed, is any time to work effectively with children who persist in bullying behaviour. And, often with bullies, schools do not get the support of their parents, and without that support the behaviour will be repeated. A detention or a couple of days exclusion will not change the mindset of a bully; in fact, many see an exclusion as some kind of reward as they get a few days off. What other powers do schools have in reality, especially when local authorities do not support any meaningful exclusions, and parents are allowed to appeal.

I think a greater amount of responsibility should fall on parents to prevent bullying behaviour in their children. The truth is, children come into schools with the ideas, attitudes and behaviour that they have learnt is acceptable at home, and they return to that same environment at the end of the day. It is only in the home that these issues can truly be tackled.

Parents need to bring up their children with a focus on good morals, respect for others, compassion, etc, and without prejudiced attitudes. And they must also ensure that they take effective measures to address any unkind, anti-social or bullying behaviour in their children, whether that be verbal, mental, emotional or physical. It is that and the wider society's views which will truly prevent bullying.

...great post, Garfie..:love:..I think the thing is as well though...that parents who do bring their children up with a focus on good morals..?...can still have a child who can act in a bullying way...I mean, perfectly loving and caring and attention giving parents etc...but it’s just that they can’t see the bully in their child..in fact it can go the other way in that they can feel that their child is the one who is being bullied and be hostile to the school for not addressing that, in the way in which they’re seeing it...because their child who is obviously their world, will never display that side in their presence ..and is nothing but charming and lovely etc...but yeah, it’s for parents and schools to work together but the parents do have to see the bully in their child for that to even begin and not perceive any other perspective of an incident other than the actuality it was, that can be hard for a school to persuade a parent who may only have perceived their child’s behaviour which would be totally opposite in nature...and some schools do have behaviour officers and school councillors which really do make a difference in the experience I’ve had in the past..but funding, always funding...many schools can’t afford such people in their staffing budgets...and also even with parents and schools working together with serious bullying issues..?...outside resources in social services will probably be needed as well....and cut backs have made it impossible to get that help and support, which may help to prevent these suicides...yeah all so very sad and in today’s world, a little hopeless as well..

[Crimson Dynamo]

9 year olds shouldnt be concerned about there sexuality at all.

What made him think he was gay? because he was told his was gay because he acted camp?

I think he should have just been a kid and not been encouraged to be obbessessed with his sexuality at such a young age.

such a sad story. 9 is far too young

Indeed and i would hope his mother warned him about going into school announcing that?

Obviously all the facts are not in regarding this tragic tale

[ArgyESC]

That's just sad.
Tbh I don't get it how he knew he was gay. Sexuality keeps developing at such an age. Maybe he thought so because he was behaving "camp" as it was already mentioned.
Regardless, he definitely shouldn't have come out to the whole school. Of course he should have kept being himself but coming out to everyone is dangerous. Kids (or more like teenagers) should be advised to come out to people they trust and not tell everyone.

[ethanjames]

is that what we are debating here how a kid knew he was gay is that the problem here??? because for myself im still confused how kids can push a poor confident child to suicide

[ArgyESC]

is that what we are debating here how a kid knew he was gay is that the problem here??? because for myself im still confused how kids can push a poor confident child to suicide

Of course the behaviour of those kids was awful, no one is doubting that.
However, it wouldn't be easy at all for him to change their attitude. What he could easily have done though is keep himself safe. That's what we are analysing here. If all these kids keep themselves safe from bullies it will be much easier to go through it all.

[ethanjames]

Of course the behaviour of those kids was awful, no one is doubting that.
However, it wouldn't be easy at all for him to change their attitude. What he could easily have done though is keep himself safe. That's what we are analysing here. If all these kids keep themselves safe from bullies it will be much easier to go through it all.

kids shouldn't have to be bullied though for being who they are and we should think more about how to stop the bullying and less how to tune someones identity down. if a kid is being bullied for being out as gay i dont think being out as gay is the issue. people should be proud of him being who he wants to be.

[Crimson Dynamo]

is that what we are debating here how a kid knew he was gay is that the problem here??? because for myself im still confused how kids can push a poor confident child to suicide

well most kids will get bullied at some time in their life but 99.999% dont kill themselves

[ethanjames]

well most kids will get bullied at some time in their life but 99.999% dont kill themselves
yes im aware its not the kids fault they get bullied though so they shouldnt have to change themselves to fit societys norms

[Alf]

well most kids will get bullied at some time in their life but 99.999% dont kill themselvesThis is very true.

The questions in this story need to be aimed at parenting.

[ArgyESC]

kids shouldn't have to be bullied though for being who they are and we should think more about how to stop the bullying and less how to tune someones identity down. if a kid is being bullied for being out as gay i dont think being out as gay is the issue. people should be proud of him being who he wants to be.

Totally agree with you, of course that's the issue and I hope it gets better the years to come, but a little kid can't do much to change it. Many years are needed to change this situation and for now such kids should try their best not to put themselves at risk. Be yourself and let them assume whatever, coming out to everyone at your school is sadly not a very good idea even in 2018 though...

[Crimson Dynamo]

yes im aware its not the kids fault they get bullied though so they shouldnt have to change themselves to fit societys norms

You deal with the cards you are dealt, not the cards you want to be dealt

[kirklancaster]

A horrid situation that is all too common. The School has since released platitude laden PR statements to cover their own arses but it looks like nothing's going to change. So sick of seeing stories like this and nothing happening as a response to it. Most schools would rather brush bullying under the table rather than deal with it and that attitude costs lives.

Another child dead in another multi-lives changing tragedy which did NOT need to happen.

I totally agree with the emboldened too because that has been my experience.

[user104658]

That a 9 year old - who can't yet even have any real concept of life and death - would take their own life is genuinely heartbreaking.

I would say though that there is clearly a longer story here... he did not kill himself after "four days" of bullying. That part of the story is utter nonsense and really underemphasises the prolonged mental anguish that leads to suicide. Also the phrasing of "she reassured him she still loved him" seems a little odd, to me. I wonder if his family really did react as well as is being reported, to be frank.

[ethanjames]

Totally agree with you, of course that's the issue and I hope it gets better the years to come, but a little kid can't do much to change it. Many years are needed to change this situation and for now such kids should try their best not to put themselves at risk. Be yourself and let them assume whatever, coming out to everyone at your school is sadly not a very good idea even in 2018 though...

i agree hopefully it will eventually get better!

[jaxie]

RIP...

Schools are toxic for LGBT people and this issue needs addressing with full force.

Schools can be toxic for literally anyone. Sad fact.

[jaxie]

That a 9 year old - who can't yet even have any real concept of life and death - would take their own life is genuinely heartbreaking.

I would say though that there is clearly a longer story here... he did not kill himself after "four days" of bullying. That part of the story is utter nonsense and really underemphasises the prolonged mental anguish that leads to suicide. Also the phrasing of "she reassured him she still loved him" seems a little odd, to me. I wonder if his family really did react as well as is being reported, to be frank.

I wondered about his family too and how a child so young would know whether he was actually gay or not. It feels like this is only half the story and here are many unanswered questions around it.

I also don't really get the concept of coming out to people. Your sexuality is your business, not anyone else's and no one should feel pressured to have to tell others their preferences.

Bullying is as old as schools. I don't think schools know how to deal with it and part of the problem is mainstream education doesn't suit every child.

[Elliot]

I hope the central focus of this debate isn’t whether a 9 year old can realise his sexuality and instead this absurd hostile culture of bullying in schools which is ruining the mental health and even lives of millions of school kids and how schools aren’t adequalty dealing with it

[Crimson Dynamo]

I hope the central focus of this debate isn’t whether a 9 year old can realise his sexuality and instead this absurd hostile culture of bullying in schools which is ruining the mental health and even lives of millions of school kids and how schools aren’t adequalty dealing with it

how do you know where the bullying happened?

[jaxie]

I hope the central focus of this debate isn’t whether a 9 year old can realise his sexuality and instead this absurd hostile culture of bullying in schools which is ruining the mental health and even lives of millions of school kids and how schools aren’t adequalty dealing with it

It's a discussion and the why's and wherefors are an important part of the whole discussion.

[GoldHeart]

Of course the behaviour of those kids was awful, no one is doubting that.
However, it wouldn't be easy at all for him to change their attitude. What he could easily have done though is keep himself safe. That's what we are analysing here. If all these kids keep themselves safe from bullies it will be much easier to go through it all.

I agree ,
This story is depressing as hell though , it's horrific that a kid as young as 9 can even contemplate suicide !!! Let alone actually go through with it :shocked:. Clearly he had alot of psychological problems.

I think at such a young age he should of just been a kid. And worried about his sexuality when he's older. Surely at 9 he wouldn't of been thinking of relationships so why announce it ?:conf: .

And what if he was just confused and got influenced by social media and others . I already find it weird how little kids talk about dating like wtf you still sing nursery rhymes and get your food cut up by your parents :facepalm: .

But alot needs addressing here not just with the school,at such a young age his brain development hasn't fully matured. Maybe he didn't have the right support around him .

However bullying happens regardless of who you are etc. So even if he DIDN'T broadcast it ,he probably still would of been targeted as bullies are usually weak cowards . Even when people don't say or do anything they get picked on for no reason . So that needs tackling and teacher's and schools need to try and stop bullying! .

[Alf]

The mother has done an interview on CNN.

I'll let Arista post the video, I don't touch CNN, I might catch something!

[Niamh.]

I hope the central focus of this debate isn’t whether a 9 year old can realise his sexuality and instead this absurd hostile culture of bullying in schools which is ruining the mental health and even lives of millions of school kids and how schools aren’t adequalty dealing with it

I think all the factors should be discussed when something this tragic and unusual for a person of that age happens. If nothing else to help prevent something like this from happening again. Are young children over exposed to things they shouldn't even being thinking about yet for example. Too much access to social media and that kind of thing

[Tom4784]

I wondered about his family too and how a child so young would know whether he was actually gay or not. It feels like this is only half the story and here are many unanswered questions around it.

I also don't really get the concept of coming out to people. Your sexuality is your business, not anyone else's and no one should feel pressured to have to tell others their preferences.

Bullying is as old as schools. I don't think schools know how to deal with it and part of the problem is mainstream education doesn't suit every child.

Kids have crushes at that age and younger sometimes, he just happened to have crushes on boys and knew what that meant. A person doesn't decide their sexuality, it simply is something that is. It's sad that we're putting his sexuality under a microscope and not the school environment that facilitated the bullying.

You don't get the concept of coming out because it's something that doesn't apply to you. LGBT people tend to be scared to be themselves, before we come out we'll change who we are and how we act in order to pass as 'normal'. Coming out is an important part of LGBT people accepting who they are and becoming confident in who they are. It's not about saying whether you like dick or vag but accepting what will be a huge part of you life and making peace with it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Kids have crushes at that age and younger sometimes, he just happened to have crushes on boys and knew what that meant. A person doesn't decide their sexuality, it simply is something that is. It's sad that we're putting his sexuality under a microscope and not the school environment that facilitated the bullying.

You don't get the concept of coming out because it's something that doesn't apply to you. LGBT people tend to be scared to be themselves, before we come out we'll change who we are and how we act in order to pass as 'normal'. Coming out is an important part of LGBT people accepting who they are and becoming confident in who they are. It's not about saying whether you like dick or vag but accepting what will be a huge part of you life and making peace with it.

how do you know the alleged bullying happened anywhere near the school?

[Tom4784]

how do you know the alleged bullying happened anywhere near the school?

Doesn't matter if the bullying takes place on school grounds or not, if a student is bullying another student and the link that binds them together is the school then it's the school's responsibility to act.

But, judging from the reports and testimonies, the bullying didn't happen offsite so it's a moot point all together.

[jaxie]

Kids have crushes at that age and younger sometimes, he just happened to have crushes on boys and knew what that meant. A person doesn't decide their sexuality, it simply is something that is. It's sad that we're putting his sexuality under a microscope and not the school environment that facilitated the bullying.

You don't get the concept of coming out because it's something that doesn't apply to you. LGBT people tend to be scared to be themselves, before we come out we'll change who we are and how we act in order to pass as 'normal'. Coming out is an important part of LGBT people accepting who they are and becoming confident in who they are. It's not about saying whether you like dick or vag but accepting what will be a huge part of you life and making peace with it.

Children who are not gay also have same sex crushes at 9. At that age it's all a bit hazy really.

You have no idea about my sexuality because I haven't declared it so don't presume please.

I don't understand the concept of coming out because declaring your private life publicly is daft. It's your business, not everyone else's.

[Tom4784]

Children who are not gay also have same sex crushes at 9. At that age it's all a bit hazy really.

You have no idea about my sexuality because I haven't declared it so don't presume please.

I don't understand the concept of coming out because declaring your private life publicly is daft. It's your business, not everyone else's.

But when you know, you know.

The fact you don't understand the importance of coming out is all I need to know, really.

[Maru]

You deal with the cards you are dealt, not the cards you want to be dealt

Yeah and if we're unfortunate enough to pick up a lot of bad cards along the way, at least play those cards in such a way that it won't further undermine your own situation... we don't have to hide who we are to feel content with it, but we don't have to advertise it either?...

In my opinion, much of bullying is a bad mix of the attacker and victim is lacking certain key social development that can make the victim more appealing... the catch is the bully usually has a better understanding of the "social economy", how one interaction can cause one person to react a certain way, which leads to the next interaction and vice-versa...

So my opinion of the solution...

1) Yes, society should improve itself, but that will only happen only over a longer period of time, and only if we raise better kids, mend the social divide, etc... but even then, it's not "the" solution imo... it just helps reduce the natural friction caused by inequalities in personal power between peers...

2) A more practical solution (for the parents) is being involved in your child's social development. A kid can be the sweetest, most gentlest and kindest person in the group... but without learning certain social strategies, that will only get them so far. If they are trying to cope and it is only getting worse, then they may not have the social skills to analyze and fully understand the problem, much less being able to identify where they are reciprocating the interactions.

Bullies don't care about virtue signaling, but they do care about their heirarchy in a group, where most of their personal power comes from... They want the victim's status which stems from a deep seated sense of envy (believe it or a not). A peer with higher social development and sense of self would be able to unmask this quickly. However, a child who is still behind so to speak, they won't understand the power play and so they will more strongly associate with the bully's attempts to make them feel the victim. It's this victim mentality they depend on, because by undermining the self-esteem of their victims, who are usually more independent/dissociated from the rest of the group, cheats them into giving up their own personal power...

Bullies won't go after kids who are associated with a large group of folk who will be difficult to pull that child away... and they risk interacting with those individuals with stronger self-esteem in those groups who will unmask their behavior...... so they will go after the individualists, i.e. the introverts stray from the herd in some fundamental way and can be isolated... it's their independent minds that make them more quirkish, not their "victim status" (i.e. homosexual, minority, most nerdish, etc)... and those folk are not likely to be really paying attention to group dynamics to understand the attacks... so even better if those kids are struggling socially in that environment to adapt, because it means they can make repeated runs at their personal power, making them appear more powerful to their rest of the peer group...

That's part of what makes online so ripe for bullying as well (outside of anonymity)... as most of what is posted up is centered around the individual, their identity, not their "place" in the group... so it's easy to "isolate" a lone profile who be tricked into disbelieving their personal power, versus a group of folk arranged together in a clique in a physical room... would not be a tempting target at all...

In some ways, I'd say some kids are better off now than we used to be... they have better social development than we did before there was online and all that. Read this today and I thought about that specifically:

Logged off: meet the teens who refuse to use social media
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/aug/29/teens-desert-social-media

[jaxie]

But when you know, you know.

The fact you don't understand the importance of coming out is all I need to know, really.

I understand it's a silly trend that used to be a nasty and damaging way of forcing public figures to declare their sexuality.

[Tom4784]

I understand it's a silly trend that used to be a nasty and damaging way of forcing public figures to declare their sexuality.

???

You're not making much sense.

[Maru]

I get where jaxie is coming from.

[Ammi]

Kids have crushes at that age and younger sometimes, he just happened to have crushes on boys and knew what that meant. A person doesn't decide their sexuality, it simply is something that is. It's sad that we're putting his sexuality under a microscope and not the school environment that facilitated the bullying.

You don't get the concept of coming out because it's something that doesn't apply to you. LGBT people tend to be scared to be themselves, before we come out we'll change who we are and how we act in order to pass as 'normal'. Coming out is an important part of LGBT people accepting who they are and becoming confident in who they are. It's not about saying whether you like dick or vag but accepting what will be a huge part of you life and making peace with it.

...yeah basically this really ..we don’t decide our sexuality but with heterosexuality we kind of automatically fall into society expectations and assumptions etc...which do still exist but you know, it is stretching out more and more ...and that does help obviously in changing and rearranging society judgements for many...people obviously should never be forced or feel forced to come out...it’s a personal thing of if and when they want to...(...and can live their whole life having never wanted to etc...)...but sadly, there’s outing someone as well which seems to happen at times with celebrities which is so wrong...and it makes no difference to their celebrity status anyway or anything about them in any way..so it’s just wrong really...it should always be a personal and individual choice ...but in this internet world especially..it allows for so much interest in celebrity and following of celebrity etc...that it just makes it so easy in the ‘outing’...almost like a race to get that ‘exclusive’ at times is how it can feel...


..I think with some parents..?...they know their child, they feel their child in terms of realising their sexuality so are able to have that ‘talk’ with them first if they think that would be helpful to their child...they also might think their child wouldn’t want to have that ‘talk’ quite yet and leave them to their own time and own way, you know...but with other parents, assumptions can be made and expectations can be there even if it’s not realised that’s what’s happening or that’s what their child is feeling...the love and support are absolutely still there...

...this reminds me of Father and Son by Cat Stevens..’find a girl, settle down and if you want to, you can marry’...well what if it’s a boy, dad...and it’s only recently I’ve been told I can marry anyway...and even though I can now, society will still judge...CAKE SHOPS WILL NOT MAKE MY CAKE...so this is very hard for me, dad...but I’ll make the first step of coming out which is something you never had to do...because you found a girl and you settled down and you got married etc...

[jaxie]

I get where jaxie is coming from.

Thanks Maru. And thanks for the link in your post, very interesting read.

I have wondered in this case if the parents encouraged the child to out himself as the story seems rather strange and the child too young to understand and express sexuality. As Ammi said, assumptions can be made, and assumptions can be wrong. I doubt many nine year olds understand what sexuality is, let alone being able to claim their own. Children go through so many changes and little girls particularly will often have strong crushes on other girls and women they admire at this age but grow up to be hetrosexual.

People can get it wrong, specially if they are parents who think their child may be gay at such a young age and it's not the appropriate age for this discussion beyond understanding your child and their needs and trying to encourage them that they are loved and special whoever they end up growing up to love. I have known boys and girls with a preference for the toys that are considered more appropriate for the opposite sex by society and this has no bearing on their sexuality later on. I have known a very camp man who was completely hetrosexual.

I suppose what I am saying is people do not necessarily fit into categories or into boxes, particularly at such a young age. We change, things change and children should be encouraged to be who they are without being categorised.

This is a very sad case with a child who must have been very unhappy.

[Oliver_W]

I wondered about his family too and how a child so young would know whether he was actually gay or not. It feels like this is only half the story and here are many unanswered questions around it.

It doesn't matter if he knew exactly what "being gay" exactly means, he knew he was different to his peers, and he was bullied for it.

[Tom4784]

I get where jaxie is coming from.

Congrats, still doesn't really make what she said any clearer though.

Coming out isn't a way to force celebrities to reveal their truths. It's something that almost all LGBT people have to do at some point in their lives. It's gross to paint what is essentially someone accepting themselves and deciding to share it with the people they love as something dark and not good and that kind of attitude comes with connotations.

Sometimes coming out costs people in the end but the whole point of it is that it helps the person in question truly accept who they are.

Thanks Maru. And thanks for the link in your post, very interesting read.

I have wondered in this case if the parents encouraged the child to out himself as the story seems rather strange and the child too young to understand and express sexuality. As Ammi said, assumptions can be made, and assumptions can be wrong. I doubt many nine year olds understand what sexuality is, let alone being able to claim their own. Children go through so many changes and little girls particularly will often have strong crushes on other girls and women they admire at this age but grow up to be hetrosexual.

People can get it wrong, specially if they are parents who think their child may be gay at such a young age and it's not the appropriate age for this discussion beyond understanding your child and their needs and trying to encourage them that they are loved and special whoever they end up growing up to love. I have known boys and girls with a preference for the toys that are considered more appropriate for the opposite sex by society and this has no bearing on their sexuality later on. I have known a very camp man who was completely hetrosexual.

I suppose what I am saying is people do not necessarily fit into categories or into boxes, particularly at such a young age. We change, things change and children should be encouraged to be who they are without being categorised.

This is a very sad case with a child who must have been very unhappy.

I think you're trying to minimalise the issue here and change focus. This story is not about whether or not the child was gay or not, he said he was and he was bullied for it, that's what matters here. I think it's utterly disgusting to see that people's first response is not to blame the bullies but to look at the parents and make out they forced choices on their kids with no evidence suggesting so because the kid happened to be gay.

As Oliver has said, the story comes down to a boy being different and being bullied to death because of it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If the mother let her son go to school to announce to all he was gay at 9 years old then I would lay a lot of blame at her feet

[Tom4784]

Yup, blame the mother and excuse the homophobia.....

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yup, blame the mother and excuse the homophobia.....

i like top see the bigger picture rather just get out a pitchfork

[Tom4784]

Well, no. You'd rather scapegoat the mother rather than place blame on the homophobic bullying that took place.

[Redway]

As sad as this story is how does a 9-year-old already have an established sexuality?

[Maru]

i like top see the bigger picture rather just get out a pitchfork

Well, no. You'd rather scapegoat the mother rather than place blame on the homophobic bullying that took place.

We live in a society that doesn't agree on just about anything, and a large part of that is due to our diversity. In this case, intellectual diversity also applies. Emotional arguments and guilt-tripping doesn't work with people because not everyone will share that particular motive and thus not likely to be empathetic. What we're proposing requires that everyone behave and think the same way, which is never going to be realistic in any group setting...

As was suggested by the mother, rather than focus on empty promises that society will change and that we will all come to believe the same thing in due time, a 9/yo shouldn't have been encouraged to share their life story so young without at least being prepared for any potential blow-back .. suicide is a pretty extreme reaction and I think very doubtful this happened overnight. It's possible too they were bullied massively for years prior, but don't we think it's a bit weird it occurred after only four days of bullying... her words about her son feeling terrified were quite heartbreaking, as so clearly there was something going wrong that was unfortunately missed.

I think as jaxie mentioned, the concern here is whether the parents in the background maybe inadvertently encouraged them to continue making it the issue with their peers by giving them empty phrases such "You should never be ashamed and hide your sexuality, etc..."... which to me is very bad advice... of course we should use discretion with who we tell our most private details to? That would be mad in a school setting where kids are nearing their terrible teens.

Our culture encourages exhibitionism and oversharing of various opinions (not just sexuality) which has led to a lot of ill effects in society in terms of many parents allowing our younger generations to become mouthpieces for "change"... whether intentional or not, that is our fault. It has always been the responsibility of older/wise folk to set the standard, not the young... they're still in formative years and they can't yet cope with all the complications and stressors of being in various social settings... we don't know what the mother did/didn't teach their child, but clearly they weren't emotionally equipped to handle 4 days of homophobic bullying, if that is to be the actual cause...

I should never have to feel I should withhold my spiritual & political views either, but sadly that's part of becoming a member of society and having to deal with a group. I will be exposed to opinions that disagree with my own POV. We have to discern who we share our time and energy with. Learning that lesson is quite important, and much more liberating than the current mantra(s) passed as empowerment. Things like labels and check-boxes only really matter when we start to operate and think independence of the group... but taking ownership of some of those trickier labels can sometimes take a lifetime of development and ownership.

TLDR: Loudly exclaiming our personal views & leanings to most everyone we meet does not equal self-acceptance. In fact, intentional or not, oversharing (as in too many details, not just his sexuality) can come off as being emotionally needy in a group setting which may lead to alienation... and when a child is still developing, they're still quite naive. It's important parents be mindful that while their child can be the kindest, sweetest, well-mannered individual, they won't necessarily be accepted by everyone the way they maybe deserve. It also doesn't mean they yet have the social skills and the emotional understanding to comprehend the diffused/mixed reaction they may receive at revealing such details... there's various factors that could've led to their suicide I think, but the parents are the only real control in this situation. Who we blame is irrelevant to suicide prevention.

[Maru]

As sad as this story is how does a 9-year-old already have an established sexuality?

I don't think a whole lot is truly "established" until we're into our 20's... and even then, some things can still change :laugh:...