Feminist tells India Willoughby she's not a woman, and says she's attacking womanhood

[Morgan.]

fDSOP_j7HZE

:skull:

Completely siding with India here.

[Elliot]

Spotted the terf

[Greg!]

Scum (the terf not India)

[MB.]

Correction: not a feminist

[Mokka]

Correction: not a feminist

This is what I was thinking... tired of people calling themselves feminists... who've lost the plot and are giving feminism a bad name

[Oliver_W]

She's a transwoman, but she'll never be biologically female, but what's to be gained by saying that to her face? India's hardly gonna say "YOU'RE RIGHT" and regrow her cock and start living as a man again...

[Maru]

Feminism has become too big a word or umbrella to now try to control how people self-identify with it... if we're pro-self-identification here... I think of myself as an individualist feminist, but I don't agree with all the new new waviness coming out.

I don't think because a woman is a feminist in past time and the movement has changed significantly and that individual chooses not to adopt those new(er) views, doesn't mean they are not a feminist...

Just the same, we shouldn't kick lesbians out of the LGBT because they don't agree with newer views on Transgenderism... it completely contradicts the purpose of those movements being about acceptance... there shouldn't be an ultimatum.

Anyway, I'm not arsed whether myself is accepted me as a feminist or not because I could care less... but I just think it's uncomfortable for me as a woman to see other people go through, that we've now determined all women must all agree or check certain boxes before they can be accepted into the feminist movement...

It really makes me think of Christianity, where there was one this unifying church... and now there's all these different movements/denominations and obviously agendas within it because that's how separatist the movement has become...

[Oliver_W]

Feminism in its modern form is a bit cracked. Some people seem to think it's "intersectional" by default; while she's in no way a consensus, Riley Dennis (I linked one of her videos in the JK Rowling racism thread) categories any of her videos relating to race, poverty, or trans stuff as feminism.

[Maru]

Feminism in its modern form is a bit cracked. Some people seem to think it's "intersectional" by default; while she's in no way a consensus, Riley Dennis (I linked one of her videos in the JK Rowling racism thread) categories any of her videos relating to race, poverty, or trans stuff as feminism.

Yeah... I relate that part again to religion. XD Back in the 90's, early 00's, I had that problem with Christianity. Particularly where they would take their core ideology and apply it to every political/economic issue possible to force their constituency to vote a certain way. I don't think beliefs/feelings can be argued in any reasonable manner. Who can rebut a feeling or a personal belief system? It's near impossible as the basis of it is how much that person truly believes the thing they believe... like those people who can cite evidence showing Jesus existed, may be reason enough for them (emotionally), but not for others who are looking at the issue more intellectually...

I don't identify with those portions of Feminism that leave the female domain for me (particularly biology) because I think in doing so, the movement has become dictatorial. Obviously some of that is the political portion of things waving off-screen in the distance. That can't be helped. However, I think leaving behind core principles of individualism and moving more towards group orientation, we lost some of the credit we had gained there by working alongside men to gain equal footing. The political side is particularly exclusive in this manner, so in having checkboxes what that has done has stifled individual female representation... which for me nullifies the whole point of it...

[user104658]

I've been telling all y'all for years that the term "feminism" is broken and toxic, and needs to be replaced. It's being clung to now out of nothing more than principle / stubbornness, which is partially understandable - people don't WANT the term to have been usurped - but it has been, and refusing to go in another direction is doing nothing to further the purported goals of (apparent) "true feminists" at all.

Bin it.

Start equality movements afresh.

[Marsh.]

Tbh, I kind of understood her in some places.

When she questioned Ruth's statements that for many years prior to India's physical transition she had "been living as a woman" and when she actually asks both Ruth and India to answer the question of what that means, neither of them could. India constantly says "I lived as a woman for x number of years prior to surgery" but doesn't even know what she means by it when she says it.

The woman has valid points about people being able to so easily "identify" as something else. I think she's going about it the wrong way, and obviously in the case of someone like India who has completely physically transitioned it's not strictly the same thing. And also "You can't change the DNA code in every cell of your body", well, she's not wrong.

Valid points on both sides here.

[JoshBB]

She aint a feminist then basically, if she thinks a vagina is the sole/most important factor to determine a woman.

The irony in what she says & claims to support, boi the terf jumped out

[Marsh.]

She's pointing out it goes beyond superficial things like wearing a dress or long hair. India showed herself up in that regard with the comment "Do you want me to shave my hair?" as though the length of her hair had any bearing on her sex or gender.

[Scarlett.]

India constantly says "I lived as a woman for x number of years prior to surgery" but doesn't even know what she means by it when she says it.

It means presenting as a woman full time, leaving your past identity behind, and it's not as simple as putting on a dress and changing your name, there is dozens of tiny little things you have to change about yourself before you even start on hormones. Presenting as female in some degree is expected before you can start on the hormones, it's not as easy as people like to make out, its long, difficult and lonely road.

[Redway]

She aint a feminist then basically, if she thinks a vagina is the sole/most important factor to determine a woman.

The irony in what she says & claims to support, boi the terf jumped out

It sort of is though.

There’s an element of truth in what she said.

[Elliot]

It’s a complex debate but I don’t think mrs penises can’t be female has much to bring to it

[Marsh.]

It means presenting as a woman full time, leaving your past identity behind, and it's not as simple as putting on a dress and changing your name, there is dozens of tiny little things you have to change about yourself before you even start on hormones. Presenting as female in some degree is expected before you can start on the hormones, it's not as easy as people like to make out, its long, difficult and lonely road.

But that's what I meant. Before any of that, how do you live as a woman.

That denotes wearing "female clothes" or growing your hair out or wearing makeup, which is not the definition of "woman". This was precisely that woman's point I feel.

But, the point I was making was India couldn't answer. You might have just answered what you feel it means to you, but India couldn't give that answer in this debate and therefore most likely attaches "living as a woman" to "wearing dresses full time".

[Scarlett.]

But that's what I meant. Before any of that, how do you live as a woman.

That denotes wearing "female clothes" or growing your hair out or wearing makeup, which is not the definition of "woman". This was precisely that woman's point I feel.

And that's the problem a lot of trans people face, you're expected to live as a woman to some degree before you can have anything at all medically done. The wait from getting a referral to a GIC to actually seeing a GIC is two years. People who put on womens clothes before having anything done arent actually doing it for fun (unless they're a cross dresser which is something completely different), they're doing it because it is required.

[Oliver_W]

She aint a feminist then basically, if she thinks a vagina is the sole/most important factor to determine a woman.

The irony in what she says & claims to support, boi the terf jumped out

It sort of is though.

There’s an element of truth in what she said.

It's among the things that determine biological females, tis true.

Though I don't think it should affect how we see transwomen, because a)having the op doesn't make them not biologically male, if you're gonna call them she, their op status shouldn't have any baring on this and b)it's not even a vagina, it's a surgically constructed wound.

[JoshBB]

It sort of is though.

There’s an element of truth in what she said.

Ignorance.

The scientific consensus is that while biological sex is determined by genes, hormones, and genitals, one's psychological gender is entirely on the basis of how that individual self-identifies.

But go off, i guess :shrug:

[Marsh.]

Ignorance.

The scientific consensus is that while biological sex is determined by genes, hormones, and genitals, one's psychological gender is entirely on the basis of how that individual self-identifies.

But go off, i guess :shrug:

Well the discussion is about womanhood, not strictly femininity so...

[Redway]

Ignorance.

The scientific consensus is that while biological sex is determined by genes, hormones, and genitals, one's psychological gender is entirely on the basis of how that individual self-identifies.

But go off, i guess :shrug:

It’s not ignorance though is it.

I said there’s an element of truth in what she said. I wasn’t siding with her 100% and I said so.

How someone identifies can be brought under scientific concensus? That right?

[Maru]

I've been telling all y'all for years that the term "feminism" is broken and toxic, and needs to be replaced. It's being clung to now out of nothing more than principle / stubbornness, which is partially understandable - people don't WANT the term to have been usurped - but it has been, and refusing to go in another direction is doing nothing to further the purported goals of (apparent) "true feminists" at all.

Bin it.

Start equality movements afresh.

wtf... TS went Texan all the sudden. :laugh:

Ignorance.

The scientific consensus is that while biological sex is determined by genes, hormones, and genitals, [B]one's psychological gender[B] is entirely on the basis of how that individual self-identifies.[B]

But go off, i guess :shrug:

One would think it would be the other way around? Otherwise, our cognitive state could be predictably influenced/changed by how we self-perceive... which would be really great actually. :laugh:

Gender dysphoria isn't something individuals willingly deal with, in my view. It's not a cake-walk, as suggested by the statistics... and for me, personally, the idea that people can treat their "gender" as easy as a drop down in a Facebook profile is actually very patronizing for those who are actually having to face their dysphoria...

It is also equally prejudicial to make womanhood more about the types of clothes she wears and apparent feminine "features", rather than to notice and focus on her individuality... and that's where a lot of these movements lose me ... like who cares what umbrella we fall under, as it is who we are as individuals that counts... I understand certain groups have varying pressures and having associations within that group (fellow advocates) is very helpful to enabling us to get up back up on our feet. I was lumped in with the hysterical crowd when I came down with an infection and it took me 8 years to get a proper diagnosis... but I would think no matter what label I fell under, to not be seen as an individual would feel the most dehumanizing... that was actually my worst fear after being diagnosed.

[Maru]

An aside, we don't really ever hear about transmen at all in pop culture... it's always about transwomen... why is that? I can think of a couple of cases, but they involved pregnancies...

[Ammi]

...’you can be anything you want India’...except be who you are and have who you are recognised in law...:laugh:..that’s really going a step too far...


...I don’t know who the ‘femisist’ is...but she’s a little bit silly...for most people life isn’t so cruel as to have them in the wrong body...surely the point is that India has always been living as a woman in that she’s always been a woman who was born in the body of a man...’trans’ is surely more a ‘coming out’ of someone who takes steps to have their body more aligned with the person they are and have always been from birth...?....and that would be equality for trans as well, which often gets thrown to the side and discarded, sadly....

...I mean what does she feel ‘living like a woman’ means..?...she mentioned someone who she didn’t see as a woman who only ‘wore a dress one day a week’...I don’t know who she was referring to...i don’t wear dresses that often...probably less than one day a week...so would that make me not a woman then, would that make me more of a man then because of my clothing choices..?...well no because I’m a woman...I’m fortunate enough to be a woman who was born into a woman’s body...so whatever I wear, there’s no doubt of the person I am...what people wear doesn’t define who they are, so it seems odd to even mention that in whatever she was trying to say...I was born a daughter, I grew in my family as a young female child...at school I became part of the girls on roll in my classes at my school..etc, etc ....India didn’t have any of that...she was never given that priveledge of being regarded as who she was and be allowed to grow as who she was...but as an adult she was able to trans into who she is...and that silly lady comes along and talks about her not having lived as a woman...well no...because nature put her into a male body for a large part of her life, which meant society judged her a male...

..I guess it’s an easy and manipulative question do ask...’what does living as a woman mean...?...it means, knowing you’re a woman and being able to live your life as a woman without question or judgement because of your gender, no matter what your personal life choices etc...that’s something which has been denied to India because of the body she was born into...and because of that body, there are some things...some ‘woman things’ that will always be denied to her...like childbirth for instance...but at least transitioning will give her so much fulfilment and so much completeness, she was previously denied...and only for her to be told by a silly woman ‘you’ll never completely be one of us, baby ...and that should be reflected in law and society acknowledgement’....well that silly woman might have been born in the correct body and be able to fully experience womanhood as she sees it...but what if I don’t want her as one of us though...she’s not the greatest of representatives so maybe she could be replaced by India as a better representative....hmmmmm....

...India’s journey seems to be progresssing beautifully in that she seems so much more happy within herself than when she was on Big Brother...:lovedup:...

[arista]

I knew she would bring up Karen White
who went in a female prison and raped
women prisoners.

White had a penis.

[Underscore]

I agree 70% with the feminist and 30% with India tbh...

[Smithy]

Correction: not a feminist

Idg why people are making articles “feminist does something .....” for these women who quite clearly aren’t feminists :conf2:

[user104658]

Idg why people are making articles “feminist does something .....” for these women who quite clearly aren’t feminists :conf2:To be logical though, you can't have your cake and eat it too surely. If it's all about self determination, then if this woman self-identifies as being part of a branch of feminism, then she is a feminist. It's an easy / lazy solution to say "Simples; she is not a real feminist".

It's like... When an act of violence is committed in the name of Islam people are happy to call it "Muslim extremism", but when an act of violence is committed in the name of Christianity people are quick to say "Simples; that person is not a real Christian"...

Surely the crux of trans rights issues is that if someone declares themselves to identify as something, then no one can tell them that they shouldn't or are not that thing.

Why would that suddenly no longer be true of feminism?

Is it simply because it's uncomfortable and ideologically problematic to admit that - whether you personally consider it to be a twisted definition or not - she is indeed some brand of feminist?

[Ammi]

To be logical though, you can't have your cake and eat it too surely. If it's all about self determination, then if this woman self-identifies as being part of a branch of feminism, then she is a feminist. It's an easy / lazy solution to say "Simples; she is not a real feminist".

It's like... When an act of violence is committed in the name of Islam people are happy to call it "Muslim extremism", but when an act of violence is committed in the name of Christianity people are quick to say "Simples; that person is not a real Christian"...

Surely the crux of trans rights issues is that if someone declares themselves to identify as something, then no one can tell them that they shouldn't or are not that thing.

Why would that suddenly no longer be true of feminism?

Is it simply because it's uncomfortable and ideologically problematic to admit that - whether you personally consider it to be a twisted definition or not - she is indeed some brand of feminist?

...(..sorry I have to rush so this is just an initial thing to what you say, TS..]...

..there are differences in what you’re comparing though...feminism is a choice, we are not born feminists...extremism is a choice, we’re not born to be extremists...a trans person though..?...is born as a woman inside the body of a man, their body doesn’t match what they were born as..(...as with trans who are women born in men’s bodies..)...and they had no choice in any of it, other than whether to complete a trans journey in their bodies, like India has...but yeah, I do agree that definitions of the practising of feminism will vary and fit to an individual in that variation...that’s the same with many things though...

[Morgan.]

Idg why people are making articles “feminist does something .....” for these women who quite clearly aren’t feminists :conf2:

I only used the word feminist because it's the word used in the attached video.

[Katty24]

Scum (the terf not India)

India is a very poor example of womanhood so she has a valid point.

[Livia]

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

[Katty24]

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

Well said. I agree with all of that including her growing up as a white male and the high expectations of doing so. A good case of me, me, me ... in my opinion. She never will be the same as those born and raised as women and their different life experiences, however hard she tries.

[Livia]

Well said. I agree with all of that including her growing up as a white male and the high expectations of doing so. A good case of me, me, me ... in my opinion. She never will be the same as those born and raised as women and their different life experiences, however hard she tries.

Hi Katty, nice to see a new face in Serious Debates. Welcome.

[Jase.]

Kellie-Jay Keen-Minshull

:laugh2:

[Jessica.]

The chromosome argument is stupid, people have been born with complete external and internal reproductive systems but with XY Chromosomes, some of these people have even given birth to healthy babies with the help of IVF. Anyone who takes the time to educate themselves will know that chromosomes mean almost nothing anymore when you see all of the variations and cases of people who don't fit with the assumed status quo.

India feels like she's a woman just as much as I do, she shouldn't be invalidated.

[TomC]

The woman genuinely disgusted me. She spoke horrendously to India and about the trans community.

[Katty24]

The chromosome argument is stupid, people have been born with complete external and internal reproductive systems but with XY Chromosomes, some of these people have even given birth to healthy babies with the help of IVF. Anyone who takes the time to educate themselves will know that chromosomes mean almost nothing anymore when you see all of the variations and cases of people who don't fit with the assumed status quo.

India feels like she's a woman just as much as I do, she shouldn't be invalidated.

Pretty funny hearing people trying to dismiss the value and validity of chromosomes. We wouldn’t exist without them.

[JoshBB]

Firstly, terf is a bull**** term I do not recognise.

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not. She grew up as a man, a white man... with all that privilege that follows. Now, when she's chosen to be a transwoman, she still thinks the world should listen, because that's what happened when she was a man. Am I the only one who's noticed that male to female trans people are the ones who crusade, who single themselves out... while female to male trans people just get on with their lives, they seem more able to cope with hostility because when they were women, they were used to it.

I do not recognise India as a woman who is the same as me. She is not. She is a transwoman. Equal to me, worth as much, just as entitled to be happy... but not the same.

You are fair enough to argue that a transwoman (such as India) grew up as a "white man" (at least, from an outside perspective), and yes the experiences of womanhood are different. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring reality, really.

The difference though, and you're free to disagree, is that someone like India did not grow up in "full" white male privilege. She was forced to conceal her gender identity in an intolerant society, and around 40% of trans women have attempted suicide, with far more experiencing depression and other mental health issues due to gender dysphoria. Therefore, I would argue that trans women have pretty first-hand experience due to their gender expression, and the struggle of women & transpeople is certainly comparable.

Trans women should be seen as a woman for those reasons, alongside their self-identification, and enjoy full rights in society and under the law as women. The reason I find TERFs disgusting is that they seem to disregard transgender people's struggles and oppression, and they ultimately see trans women as just "men in dresses" or some kind of imposter.

[Marsh.]

Secondly, here we are again. A trans woman insisting she's the same as a born woman, and she's not.

Tbf, she hasn't done that at all.

[Scarlett.]

Most transwomen are quite aware they're not the same as born women, but it seems every time a debate arises its the first point, when most trans peoples reactions would be "well, duh?" I also find it interesting that the debates are always about transwomen, transmen generally never seem to be even considered in these debates (I'm glad they don't have to go through it tbh), most trans people just wanna live their lives in peace, but time and time again we have to put up with being used as a political tool.

[Redway]

Ignorance.

The scientific consensus is that while biological sex is determined by genes, hormones, and genitals, one's psychological gender is entirely on the basis of how that individual self-identifies.

But go off, i guess :shrug:

Did anyone go off?

[Northern Monkey]

It seems the feminists and the transexuals are in a full scale war atm.
2 suggestions would be..
Why not just keep public areas sex based to keep things simple?
Penis’ go in male changing areas and toilets and vaginas go in female areas.
So if you’ve had the op then you can go into the changing area of your new sex.

OR

Have proper changing areas and toilets with full floor to ceiling doors and let anybody use them.

Prisons are more complicated.There really needs to be some prisons with trans dedicated wings or you’re going to end up with problems.

[Maru]

It seems the feminists and the transexuals are in a full scale war atm.
2 suggestions would be..
Why not just keep public areas sex based to keep things simple?
Penis’ go in male changing areas and toilets and vaginas go in female areas.
So if you’ve had the op then you can go into the changing area of your new sex.

OR

Have proper changing areas and toilets with full floor to ceiling doors and let anybody use them.

Prisons are more complicated.There really needs to be some prisons with trans dedicated wings or you’re going to end up with problems.

They have that in the jails here... they give them different colored armbands, and there is one for if they're homosexual or trans, etc... I'm not sure what the armbands actually look (have to ask hubby)... maybe like hospital bands? But they are at higher risk for assault in those areas... we segregate them here... people are put into lock-down if the Gen pop tank are not friendly towards them for whatever reason... they have to keep an eye on that constantly in case a fight breaks out, so they can respond quickly...

[Maru]

...(..sorry I have to rush so this is just an initial thing to what you say, TS..]...

..there are differences in what you’re comparing though...feminism is a choice, we are not born feminists...extremism is a choice, we’re not born to be extremists...a trans person though..?...is born as a woman inside the body of a man, their body doesn’t match what they were born as..(...as with trans who are women born in men’s bodies..)...and they had no choice in any of it, other than whether to complete a trans journey in their bodies, like India has...but yeah, I do agree that definitions of the practicing of feminism will vary and fit to an individual in that variation...that’s the same with many things though...

I think TS may have borrowed from my comment where I mention the concept of self-identification (in general)... that's different than Transgenderism... it's one thing to say an apple is an apple... or that an apple looks like an apple, but feels like an orange... but completely different if an apple can change to different fruit at will (Fire orange, banana bonanza, peachy keen, fine lime)... to me, that completely trivializes Transgenderism (relatively speaking)... but the self-identification thing and Transgenderism are two different concepts...

A trans-qualifier, at least as accepted by psych/med, is for those who suffering from gender dysphoria... but self-identification goes beyond that and creates an even bigger umbrella... it means we can change at will, which theoretically can mean, as often as one would prefer... it makes defining things more ambiguous, and I think if we're heading that direction, then other things can start to lose their original definition... because after all, the only qualifier is that we self-identity or "feel" a certain way that day... is a bit different than saying, well this person is transgender... because they have gender dysphoria... as I wrote above, I really disagree with this concept because it trivializes the footwork that legitimate trans-folk have to go through to find peace with their own identity... if it were as simple as a switch, hey I'm not feeling a certain way today I'll change my mind, then the discussion would be null...

I don't think the concept of self-identification is the problem. I just don't think it should be law is all... a trans-person who is struggling with a real disconnect, that's much easier to accommodate... and easier for society to create social barriers that make sense for all folk...

So anyway, it was just an ironic comment... we're discussing how feminism is concretely in support of certain movements, has these political positions, is within these belief systems, this that and the other thing... is ironic considering that a great deal of folk who have that belief also support self-identification and a gender-spectrum... which sort of undermines the premise of defining things concretely to certain criterium... :laugh:

Hope that makes sense, Ammi... if not, no worries ... it's just me discussing a side-topic and other mind-dumping (as usual) :spin: ...

[Niamh.]

It seems the feminists and the transexuals are in a full scale war atm.
2 suggestions would be..
Why not just keep public areas sex based to keep things simple?
Penis’ go in male changing areas and toilets and vaginas go in female areas.
So if you’ve had the op then you can go into the changing area of your new sex.

OR

Have proper changing areas and toilets with full floor to ceiling doors and let anybody use them.

Prisons are more complicated.There really needs to be some prisons with trans dedicated wings or you’re going to end up with problems.

Yeah spot on NM, it's common sense

[Crimson Dynamo]

what actually is a feminist?

[Livia]

I believe a feminist to be someone who demands equality in the workplace, equality of opportunity and the belief that women should be free to live their life without having some git you don't know slap your arse. In a nutshell...

[Vicky.]

For daring to speak out on this issue, Posie has now been doxxed, photos of her children exposed online, and her address and such. Police are involved. But its par for the course when dealing with narcissistic males (not meaning India there, its the transactivists shes pissed off)

[Livia]

You are fair enough to argue that a transwoman (such as India) grew up as a "white man" (at least, from an outside perspective), and yes the experiences of womanhood are different. Arguing otherwise is just ignoring reality, really.

The difference though, and you're free to disagree, is that someone like India did not grow up in "full" white male privilege. She was forced to conceal her gender identity in an intolerant society, and around 40% of trans women have attempted suicide, with far more experiencing depression and other mental health issues due to gender dysphoria. Therefore, I would argue that trans women have pretty first-hand experience due to their gender expression, and the struggle of women & transpeople is certainly comparable.

Trans women should be seen as a woman for those reasons, alongside their self-identification, and enjoy full rights in society and under the law as women. The reason I find TERFs disgusting is that they seem to disregard transgender people's struggles and oppression, and they ultimately see trans women as just "men in dresses" or some kind of imposter.



You don't know India's life when she was a successful white male, so you're not qualified to reach the conclusion that her experience is comparable to being a "real" woman. Nor can my perception be changed by the fact that some people who face transsexuality suffer depression. I sympathise, but I don't believe their depression will end by insisting everyone pretends they are exactly the same as those of us born as women.

You may have seen in my post that I have nothing at all against transsexual women. But they are just that, trans women. They are not the same as me. And like I said, although they are worth as much and are just as entitled to be happy and to full rights under the law as you have mentioned, they are not women in the sense that I am. I hope India has wonderful life. I wish her no ill will. But she is different from me.

Women have been oppressed for centuries. And just as we're getting some kind of equality, men are dictating to us what we should call ourselves, and that any man who identifies as a woman should be regarded as one.

I have never seen a female to male transsexual crusade on the telly, or anywhere else, insisting that they are "real men". And I believe that is because men are used to being heard and demanding things.

[Livia]

Tbf, she hasn't done that at all.

With respect, Marshy... she spent her whole time in the BB house saying "I'm a REAL woman!".

[user104658]

TBQFH I feel jealous of anyone who is as "privileged" as this lady, to actually feel anything at all about these issues which are realistically just paranoid ****ing nonsense with literally ZERO evidence base, because I sort of feel like she can't have many legitimate problems going on in their life whatsoever.

Well. She didn't until she did this. It sounds like she does now :umm2:

[Elliot]

TBQFH I feel jealous of anyone who is as "privileged" as this lady, to actually feel anything at all about these issues which are realistically just paranoid ****ing nonsense with literally ZERO evidence base, because I sort of feel like she can't have many legitimate problems going on in their life whatsoever.

Well. She didn't until she did this. It sounds like she does now :umm2:

.

[Chero]

I can see the woman's point. I don't actually see trans people the same as women, either. To be fair, as a heterosexual female, it doesn't really matter to me if a woman is a lesbian, or if a guy wants to be a woman, since anyone not an unmarried heterosexual male is not something I'd be interested in as other than a friend. But the thing is, people who were raised as men, even if they thought themselves female, have been socialized with all the advantages males are given when they are socialized as males in our society. They will always have those advantages, even if they remove their penises. They still act like men in ways that really matter (outside of the bedroom). Just look at India as an example. India constantly interrupted other women, talked constantly with that condescending attitude virtually all men have (and women don't). I mean, you can change your sex organs, but you're still the same person inside.

So sorry to disagree with the masses on this one. I'm not that bothered, though, about trans people. I feel that they can be good or bad, depending on the person, just like everyone else. I just don't think they're quite the same as people who were born a woman. (It's like the difference between someone who is straight or gay. They may have the same gender, but there's not that much real overlap).

[Marsh.]

With respect, Marshy... she spent her whole time in the BB house saying "I'm a REAL woman!".

We're discussing this debate though in which, quite the opposite to her usual self, India was calm and reasonable in her responses.

I didn't watch most of that series so I can't comment.

[Marsh.]

Just look at India as an example. India constantly interrupted other women, talked constantly with that condescending attitude virtually all men have (and women don't).

Sexist and factually incorrect comment. People can be condescending, people of all variations. Genders and sexes, however, cannot.

[Livia]

We're discussing this debate though in which, quite the opposite to her usual self, India was calm and reasonable in her responses.

I didn't watch most of that series so I can't comment.

Well, as this isn't a court and I can take previous behaviour into account to inform my judgement, she DID spend the whole time wailing that she's a REAL woman and got very upset when a much younger man didn't want to kiss her... assuming it was because she's transsexual when in actuality it may well have been because she was too old for him. Even India herself said toward the end of her stint that she had played it all wrong. And she wasn't calm and reasonable, she interrupted constantly.

And yes, she was quite calm and reasonable. But then when she was a man she had a career in broadcast television.

One thing I've noticed... it's quite telling that the strongest posts, with the worst slurs against the "feminist", are from men.

[Livia]

I can see the woman's point. I don't actually see trans people the same as women, either. To be fair, as a heterosexual female, it doesn't really matter to me if a woman is a lesbian, or if a guy wants to be a woman, since anyone not an unmarried heterosexual male is not something I'd be interested in as other than a friend. But the thing is, people who were raised as men, even if they thought themselves female, have been socialized with all the advantages males are given when they are socialized as males in our society. They will always have those advantages, even if they remove their penises. They still act like men in ways that really matter (outside of the bedroom). Just look at India as an example. India constantly interrupted other women, talked constantly with that condescending attitude virtually all men have (and women don't). I mean, you can change your sex organs, but you're still the same person inside.

So sorry to disagree with the masses on this one. I'm not that bothered, though, about trans people. I feel that they can be good or bad, depending on the person, just like everyone else. I just don't think they're quite the same as people who were born a woman. (It's like the difference between someone who is straight or gay. They may have the same gender, but there's not that much real overlap).

Excellent points, Chero. Great post.

[Livia]

For daring to speak out on this issue, Posie has now been doxxed, photos of her children exposed online, and her address and such. Police are involved. But its par for the course when dealing with narcissistic males (not meaning India there, its the transactivists shes pissed off)

Haven't seen much outrage about this on this thread... in fact a couple of the posts seem to intimate that some people are okay with someone (almost exclusively women) who has an opinion that differs, your WHOLE family can be put at risk. Nice.

I hope the police find them... and they could if they really wanted... and hit them with the full force of the law. And all penises to go to male prisons.

[bots]

The problem with that video was that it had 2 activists from polar extremes of the discussion. Neither are reflective of the norm and as such, anything they say should be treated with a large pinch of salt in relation to the topic.

[Livia]

The problem with that video was that it had 2 activists from polar extremes of the discussion. Neither are reflective of the norm and as such, anything they say should be treated with a large pinch of salt in relation to the topic.

Ahhhh… the voice of reason.

[Redway]

You don't know India's life when she was a successful white male, so you're not qualified to reach the conclusion that her experience is comparable to being a "real" woman. Nor can my perception be changed by the fact that some people who face transsexuality suffer depression. I sympathise, but I don't believe their depression will end by insisting everyone pretends they are exactly the same as those of us born as women.

You may have seen in my post that I have nothing at all against transsexual women. But they are just that, trans women. They are not the same as me. And like I said, although they are worth as much and are just as entitled to be happy and to full rights under the law as you have mentioned, they are not women in the sense that I am. I hope India has wonderful life. I wish her no ill will. But she is different from me.

Women have been oppressed for centuries. And just as we're getting some kind of equality, men are dictating to us what we should call ourselves, and that any man who identifies as a woman should be regarded as one.

I have never seen a female to male transsexual crusade on the telly, or anywhere else, insisting that they are "real men". And I believe that is because men are used to being heard and demanding things.

Your logic’s wasted on some 17-year-old kid who skips work because “it’s not his fault the job’s boring.” I hear you still.

[Greg!]

Of course technically trans women aren't the same as other women, but I don't get why some people continually go on about it. "YOU ARE DIFFERENT FROM ME AND YOU WERE NOT BORN A WOMAN!!!!" Like yeah that's kind of what being trans means. Just all seems a bit pointless and nasty really

[Marsh.]

Well, as this isn't a court and I can take previous behaviour into account to inform my judgement

Yes, you can, but again, the comment was directed at this debate where she did no such thing.

Even India herself said toward the end of her stint that she had played it all wrong. And she wasn't calm and reasonable, she interrupted constantly.


Key word being "played", it would be hard to tell how much was typical BB housemate theatrics to get attention and how much was genuine.

Secondly, I didn't say she was calm and reasonable in the house, hence why I stated I didn't watch all of her time in the BB house.


And yes, she was quite calm and reasonable. But then when she was a man she had a career in broadcast television.

I don't think in this instance it's got anything to do with it. Man or woman in broadcast television would be media trained well enough to hold a civil televised debate.

[Chero]

Sexist and factually incorrect comment. People can be condescending, people of all variations. Genders and sexes, however, cannot.
I don't think it is sexist. I think you're living in la la land, if you don't think that the vast majority of women in the world are brought up that men are better, smarter, etc. Women are expected to spend their lives being what men want them to be. That's an overwhelming message coming through right now, and it was even worse when I was growing up. You can't spend the formative years of your life getting these messages, and be the same as someone who didn't. Nothing sexist about saying so. Turn on the TV. How much TV allotment is for men playing sports? How much are those men paid? How much for women? How much are they paid? Am I making sense yet? When women have equal opportunities and are treated equally by the media, that would bea societal start. But even if children are brought up by parents who try to raise their child in a nonsexist way, school and the media will socialize them by their gender.

[Marsh.]

I don't think it is sexist. I think you're living in la la land, if you don't think that the vast majority of women in the world are brought up that men are better, smarter, etc. Women are expected to spend their lives being what men want them to be. That's an overwhelming message coming through right now, and it was even worse when I was growing up. You can't spend the formative years of your life getting these messages, and be the same as someone who didn't. Nothing sexist about saying so. Turn on the TV. How much TV allotment is for men playing sports? How much are those men paid? How much for women? How much are they paid? Am I making sense yet? When women have equal opportunities and are treated equally by the media, that would bea societal start. But even if children are brought up by parents who try to raise their child in a nonsexist way, school and the media will socialize them by their gender.

That's not what you said.

You said men are condescending and women are not. That's incorrect and a sexist statement.

You want to fight sexism, maybe start with your own attitudes.

[Livia]

Of course technically trans women aren't the same as other women, but I don't get why some people continually go on about it. "YOU ARE DIFFERENT FROM ME AND YOU WERE NOT BORN A WOMAN!!!!" Like yeah that's kind of what being trans means. Just all seems a bit pointless and nasty really

I've never heard any woman say that except in response to a trans woman saying "I am a real woman! Just like you!"

[Livia]

Your logic’s wasted on some 17-year-old kid who skips work because “it’s not his fault the job’s boring.” I hear you still.

Hey Red...nice to see you x

[Marsh.]

I've never heard any woman say that except in response to a trans woman saying "I am a real woman! Just like you!"

How many circumstances in life result in trans women screaming this in the face of cis women?

[Livia]

How many circumstances in life result in trans women screaming this in the face of cis women?

Firstly, I don't recognise the term 'cis', imposed upon me by people with an agenda.

Every time there's someone on TV campaigning hard for transsexual rights, it's going to be a trans female insisting she's a woman.

Never, ever, heard a female to male do it. Maybe that's why transwoman have SO much support from men?

The fact that the "feminist" in the OP has had death threats and pictures of her children posted online, as happens to a lot of women who stand up against the idea that trans woman and born woman are exactly the same, demonstrates the kind of response born women get when they disagree. Where is the outrage over that? Maybe their not screaming in our faces, but their tactics are ****ing hysterical and outrageous.*

* I have to say I don't find all transwoman to be this way. Just the militants.

[Marsh.]

Firstly, I don't recognise the term 'cis', imposed upon me by people with an agenda.

Every time there's someone on TV campaigning hard for transsexual rights, it's going to be a trans female insisting she's a woman.

Never, ever, heard a female to male do it. Maybe that's why transwoman have SO much support from men?

The fact that the "feminist" in the OP has had death threats and pictures of her children posted online, as happens to a lot of women who stand up against the idea that trans woman and born woman are exactly the same, demonstrates the kind of response born women get when they disagree. Where is the outrage over that? Maybe their not screaming in our faces, but their tactics are ****ing hysterical and outrageous.*

* I have to say I don't find all transwoman to be this way. Just the militants.

Well, cis is a dictionary defined word I used in the correct context.

I don't condone anything that has happened to the "feminist" in the OP. But I daresay the strong response she has received isn't something that women will get in general for having a different opinion, but because she gives that opinion alongside all of her offensive views in her higher profile and militant ways. Just as those trans people who put themselves forward as the campaigners for what they believe in are the ones that get the most abuse too.

Never heard a female to male say it, because they don't need to. Maybe they're more accepted.

[Vicky.]

Yikes. :umm2:



:unsure:

My original point was that a simple difference of a opinion doesn't itself warrant nor invite a strong backlash. As though ALL women get this treatment ALL the time.

No, on both sides of the argument, the only people getting the strong backlash are the people putting themselves forward like India and the "feminist" in the OP as the spokespeople, or the people who choose to air their strong views on public platforms and in campaigns. Because that's what always happens in those arenas, the extreme from both sides begin attacking.

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

[Marsh.]

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

Well, I used people because it isn't just one side of the debate receiving abuse. The trans people receive the abuse for their views and campaigning too.

It's not one sided.

I don't think there are many men who speak out about the rights of women/transwomen for me to make any comparison as to their treatment.

[Vicky.]

Well, I used people because it isn't just one side of the debate receiving abuse. The trans people receive the abuse for their views and campaigning too.

It's not one sided.

It really is :laugh:

Its one side of the debate recieving abuse. Check out the replies under any transactivists twitter post on this topic, for example. Then contrast it with a feminists. And then contrast that with a man saying the same thing as the feminist. Seriously, everyone who thinks this is two way should do this...

[Marsh.]

Transactivists receive no abuse? Ok, I'll take your word for it.

[Elliot]

That should read the WOMEN who chose to air their strong views. As its only women. The term of abuse, TERF, often accompanied by 'die in a fire' and such...there is no equivalent for men. And the difference you see when men speak out on social media is striking, seriously. This is misogyny. Pure and simple.

Tbh terf is literally just trans exclusionary radical fems, can be either Male or female, from what I can tell usually female tho I’ve seen men express trans exclusionary views online and get called it :shrug:

A lot of feminists own this term and call themselves it too lol

[Vicky.]

I don't think there are many men who speak out about the rights of women/transwomen for me to make any comparison as to their treatment.

Luckily there are many, and more by the day as men wake up to how much of a mens rights movement transactivism is now. And to be clear, I don't mean the likes of India, who has got along quite fine and not many people would have an issue sharing womens loos and such with her as she is post op. Thats not what transactivists are fighting for, infact they call people like India 'truscum'. They are fighting for ANY MAN to have access to womens rights, basically. Which makes womens rights utterly meaningless.

[Vicky.]

Tbh terf is literally just trans exclusionary radical fems, can be either Male or female, from what I can tell usually female tho I’ve seen men express trans exclusionary views online and get called it :shrug:

A lot of feminists own this term and call themselves it too lol

Started as this, has not been this for a long time, most of the people its thrown at are not rad fems anyway. It generally does not get thrown at blokes for the same views (though Graham Lineham of Father Ted fame has been called a terf recently :D), and its almost always accompanied by threats of violence.

https://terfisaslur.com/

Not been updated for a while...but gives an idea of what it means these days. Just aniother misogynistic slu7r. Also check out the cotton ceiling section. Shows how homophobic transactivists are too...even Stonewall back that.

[Niamh.]

Luckily there are many, and more by the day as men wake up to how much of a mens rights movement transactivism is now. And to be clear, I don't mean the likes of India, who has got along quite fine and not many people would have an issue sharing womens loos and such with her as she is post op. Thats not what transactivists are fighting for, infact they call people like India 'truscum'. They are fighting for ANY MAN to have access to womens rights, basically. Which makes womens rights utterly meaningless.

Yeah, this is the point everyone seem to be just ignoring

[Vicky.]

Transactivists receive no abuse? Ok, I'll take your word for it.

You don't need to take my word for it, go check out their timelines. They may get the odd abusive message but its nothing at all like what feminists get. Each of my twitter posts gets at least 20 threats and 'bitch' 'slut' etc type replies. Even ones that are **** all to do with trans matters, because I am on the radar of these men who want women to shut up about stuff that affects them.

[Nicky91]

i get the problem with this, but it's also not that India is a likeable person, not at all, the way she came over on CBB

so if that feminist just told India she isn't a good role model for the women in general, there wasn't any problem whatsoever

it's just the way this person said it now, came over as homophobic, insult towards the LGBTQ community and that is just plain rude

[Vicky.]

i get the problem with this, but it's also not that India is a likeable person, not at all, the way she came over on CBB

so if that feminist just told India she isn't a good role model for the women in general, there wasn't any problem whatsoever

it's just the way this person said it now, came over as homophobic, insult towards the LGBTQ community and that is just plain rude

Theres not generally a problem with post op people like India. Posie was invited on to discuss transactivism as a whole, then railroaded into discussing one trans person, when its not about individuals, its about the movement as a whole. And I genuinely cannot see how anyone can think that any man should be able to declare himself a woman and have womans rights. I don't. And I definitely do not see how people can not see that opening up womens rights to men makes womens rights meaningless. The word woman matters. Cis is sexist bollocks (against both men and women) as it relies solely on sex stereotypes. Transwomen are transwomen, and women are women. I don't get what the issue is with saying that.

[Nicky91]

Theres not generally a problem with post op people like India. Posie was invited on to discuss transactivism as a whole, then railroaded into discussing one trans person, when its not about individuals, its about the movement as a whole. And I genuinely cannot see how anyone can think that any man should be able to declare himself a woman and have womans rights. I don't. And I definitely do not see how people can not see that opening up womens rights to men makes womens rights meaningless.

and trans people are also quite insecure, not all of them but many are quite insecure, i personally am not against trans people, everyone has the right to be happy who they are for themselves

there definitely isn't much respect for women's rights, which should improve honestly, that subject has been going on for a long time now

equality for me is what should be more in the world, everyone is the same, we are all human, sorry if i sound poetic now with this

[Vicky.]

and trans people are also quite insecure, not all of them but many are quite insecure, i personally am not against trans people, everyone has the right to be happy who they are for themselves

there definitely isn't much respect for women's rights, which should improve honestly, that subject has been going on for a long time now

equality for me is what should be more in the world, everyone is the same, we are all human, sorry if i sound poetic now with this

See I know this view will be controversial here, but equality is not what I want. I want equity. Acknowledgement that some of us are different (for example women have different needs to men a lot of the time due to biology) and steps taken to try and make everything fairer.

https://www.healthknowledge.org.uk/sites/default/files/documents/publichealthtextbook/4ceep/equality-equity.jpg

In the case of the topic at hand, that would be a third unisex option for transpeople. ONTOP of single sex areas. So they have the right to use either the areas of their sex, or the unisex one if they do not feel comfortable using the areas that their sex is meant to use. As sex segregated areas are segregated by sex, not 'gender' anyway, and this needs to be acknowledged by all really. There is absolutely no point in segregating areas where one is naked or vulnerable by 'gender' which amounts to nothing more than a feeling in ones head, that a lot of people don't even have! (though women have had an honour system with transsexuals going for years and years anyway, where women will politely pretend they do not know the person is male, as they acknowledge that they have a difficult life. This is massively under threat with the behaviour/demands of transactivists tbh).

[Livia]

Interesting that it's mostly the males on this thread are telling us how bad transsexuals have it. And yes, some of them do, and I'm truly sorry for that. Everyone has a right to be happy.

That doesn't make the outrageous campaign against any woman who speaks out acceptable.

[Marsh.]

Interesting that it's mostly the males on this thread are telling us how bad transsexuals have it. And yes, some of them do, and I'm truly sorry for that. Everyone has a right to be happy.

That doesn't make the outrageous campaign against any woman who speaks out acceptable.

Who said it was acceptable? You seem to be putting words in mouths now.

You seem a little too preoccupied with dismissing opinions as "Oooh, well that's a male forum member so their view doesn't matter". Knock yourself out.

[Marsh.]

Moving the goalposts of the discussion from India Willoughby and this blogger and the debate they've had to the larger and more extreme examples of both of them doesn't help a reasoned discussion neither. It's all a little muddled.

Such as the points actually raised in this debate versus "can anyone identify as anything" are a different and much larger discussion IMO.

[Vicky.]

I think it helps to have a bit more background of quite what we are dealing with here :shrug: And the reasons Posie has ended up with the action of the billboard (which was what she was invited to discuss..the billboard, why it happened and the behaviour of transactivists, not India Willougby).. As women are just not being listened to. This has forced the issue really, and oddly enough, most people appear to agree with Posie, though seem to think she has a very harsh way of putting her opinions across. But yes, noone actually thinks transwomen are women. Hence 'transwoman'. And thats ****ing fine! Except apparently its not.

[Livia]

Who said it was acceptable? You seem to be putting words in mouths now.

You seem a little too preoccupied with dismissing opinions as "Oooh, well that's a male forum member so their view doesn't matter". Knock yourself out.

You do me a disservice Marshy. Look at the reaction to Vicky's post saying what the "Feminist" ( keep putting it in inverted commas because I'm too lazy to go back and find out her name) has suffered since exercising her freedom of speech. If a transsexual and his/her family/kids went through the same I wonder if people would be more worried?

And yes, men are entitled to have their say. But so are woman. Sadly if women have their say they run the risk of being abused online, at best, and in receipt of vile threats at worse.

[Vicky.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4IhPncF3w

Check out the difference between sky news, and the this morning **** show. Sky news actually stuck to the topic she was meant to be talking about. This morning was meant to be about the same thing, not one specific post op transsexual.

I especially like her ending comment, about the whole reason she did it was because she knew entitled males would kick off about it. That basically their (predicted) reaction would get publicity for whats going on. And it has. 700 quid well spent (and refunded, after the misogynist doctor who takes part in doxxing also, complained. And she got a refund and now has another billboard)

[Marsh.]

You do me a disservice Marshy. Look at the reaction to Vicky's post saying what the "Feminist" ( keep putting it in inverted commas because I'm too lazy to go back and find out her name) has suffered since exercising her freedom of speech. If a transsexual and his/her family/kids went through the same I wonder if people would be more worried?

I'm sorry, you're posing a hypothetical scenario and want to discuss that rather than the topic at hand. If not, I don't follow?


And yes, men are entitled to have their say. But so are woman. Sadly if women have their say they run the risk of being abused online, at best, and in receipt of vile threats at worse.

That doesn't explain why you feel the need to point out the genders/sexes of forum members, unless such a thing is happening in this very discussion.

Saying women receive online abuse is fine, it's factual. Framing it with comments about this thread/forum itself is needless IMO.

[Marsh.]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G4IhPncF3w

Check out the difference between sky news, and the this morning **** show. Sky news actually stuck to the topic she was meant to be talking about. This morning was meant to be about the same thing, not one specific post op transsexual.

I especially like her ending comment, about the whole reason she did it was because she knew entitled males would kick off about it. That basically their (predicted) reaction would get publicity for whats going on. And it has. 700 quid well spent (and refunded, after the misogynist doctor who takes part in doxxing also, complained. And she got a refund and now has another billboard)

"Entitled males" being trans women?

So they can't be "women" but now can't be "trans women" either so just "males"?

Or are they referring to men of all forms?

[Vicky.]

"Entitled males" being trans women?

So they can't be "women" but now can't be "trans women" either so just "males"?

Or are they referring to men of all forms?

Entitled males being transactivists, not transwomen. Most transactivists are not even transsexual (and will abuse those who are actually transexual), at least the ones who kick off about stuff like the dictionary definition of woman..aren't. Transactivists on the whole, are just MRAs, or misogynists latching onto a cause. Obviously not all transactivists are like that, some genuinely do care about transsexual people. But the ones who are sending out daily threats to women, they aren't actually transsexual, usually.

[Vicky.]

A
Psychologically speaking, trans women are not simply socialised advantageously. They are socialised into a gender that they do not recognise.


You do know that 'trans' goes beyond transsexual? I would agree that transsexual people have a difficult life. But 'trans' these days is so wide it covers near all people. By the Stonewall definition anyway.

https://metro.co.uk/2018/10/01/trans-woman-41-pretended-to-be-a-boy-to-groom-a-girl-7994533/

As an example of what passes for transwoman these days. And exactly what feminists are fighting against. This man, will likely be sent to a female prison. There have been a few cases recently of rapists being sent to female prisons as they claim to be 'trans'.

[Vicky.]

So, the answer would be to dismiss the rights of all trans people? To assume guilt and malicious intent by default? And not to reform the prison system? Or consider the assault on mental health that is the trans experience?

I can't think of any way in which this wouldn't make the situation worse, and it would be done to protect women in only very specific circumstances. I hazard crimes from people with worsening mental health would be very much on the rise. Angry, disaffected people walking the streets feeling isolated and hated.

And then what? When people snap they aren't allowed to walk the streets to protect other people?

Utter utter hyperbole. Noone wants trans people to have to stay indoors. Noone wants them to not have human rights.

The current system is fine. Transwomen can be moved to female prisons if they have a GRC. Which can be gained by having doctors agree you have gender dysphoria. And with a small fee, that is waived if you have a low income. The GRC system was made with it in mind that transsexuals were a very small number of people, it was estimated to help 5000 people. Today, just under 5000 people have a GRC, so its working exactly as intended. But transactivists say that such a small number of people having one is proof its not working, as there are 500,000 'trans' people in the UK. This is with the ever widening definition of trans of course. Not with what people think of when they hear trans...which is transsexual.

No reason at all to change this system, which helps transsexuals, while also keeping out fetishists and such. It puzzled me for a long time why transactivists were fighting for 'self ID'. Until it clicked, that transactivism in its current form is nothing more than a mens sexual rights movement. Now their behaviour and demands make so much sense.

[smudgie]

India is a woman. Having had the full transaction. ( not sure if that’s the correct description).
I am a woman.
I don’t feel my femininity is threatened by transsexuals.
For medical purposes I am a biological woman.
I really don’t get the constant hype and aggro about it all.:shrug:
Live and let live.

[Chero]

I think it helps to have a bit more background of quite what we are dealing with here :shrug: And the reasons Posie has ended up with the action of the billboard (which was what she was invited to discuss..the billboard, why it happened and the behaviour of transactivists, not India Willougby).. As women are just not being listened to. This has forced the issue really, and oddly enough, most people appear to agree with Posie, though seem to think she has a very harsh way of putting her opinions across. But yes, noone actually thinks transwomen are women. Hence 'transwoman'. And thats ****ing fine! Except apparently its not.
It's only fine if you can get a man to agree with you.:joker:

[Niamh.]

India is a woman. Having had the full transaction. ( not sure if that’s the correct description).
I am a woman.
I don’t feel my femininity is threatened by transsexuals.
For medical purposes I am a biological woman.
I really don’t get the constant hype and aggro about it all.:shrug:
Live and let live.

The sentiment is good Smudgie and I believe that was what was happening before all these campaigns to change laws that could potentially put women in danger with this Self ID stuff ie. putting male rapists in female prisons because they say they're female now. That's doing a disservice to not only biological women but also to genuine trans people like India

[smudgie]

The sentiment is good Smudgie and I believe that was what was happening before all these campaigns to change laws that could potentially put women in danger with this Self ID stuff ie. putting male rapists in female prisons because they say they're female now. That's doing a disservice to not only biological women but also to genuine trans people like India

I don’t believe you should be classed as a woman until you get rid of the penis.
Until then you should not be allowed in female prisons or toilets.
Perhaps the disabled toilets could be renamed and shared between disabled and trans.
I know wouldn’t have a problem with that at all.

[Niamh.]

I don’t believe you should be classed as a woman until you get rid of the penis.
Until then you should not be allowed in female prisons or toilets.
Perhaps the disabled toilets could be renamed and shared between disabled and trans.
I know wouldn’t have a problem with that at all.

Oh yeah, I agree with you on all that :thumbs:

[Chero]

If you advocate for recognising people for who they are only when a patriarchal system deems them so, then fine. But I'm hoping you don't call yourself a feminist in the process.
Ah, so you can't be for women's rights unless you think that men who say they are women are exactly like you? Women's rights and trans rights are two different things. It's just like there are many black people who are all for black people's rights, but don't care at all about women's rights. It doesn't mean they can't support some rights and not others. So please don't define feminism by your idea of what feminism should be. Each women is entitled to her own view of feminism.

[Vicky.]

The current system is not fine, by any stretch. It's inherently patriarchal for one. And medicalises mental health.

Source: It's my job to a) work in mental health and b) collaborate with researchers on improving MH education

The system is barely fit for significantly less complex and better understood issues than gender dysphoria.


I rather wish it were hyperbole. If this thread relies entirely on "I saw this happen once" and "this person was in the news for x" then I have seen countless angry, disaffected people who have been failed become increasingly angry and isolated. Heck, I've watched mental health staff be the cause of this. Over and over.

If you advocate for recognising people for who they are only when a patriarchal system deems them so, then fine. But I'm hoping you don't call yourself a feminist in the process.

So to put this bluntly, you do not think that there should need to be any proof at all of a person actually having gender dysphoria, before they are able to get a GRC. EVen though the whole point of a GRC is to help transsexual people have an easier life, and all transsexual people have gender dysphoria? Are you saying that wanting to help transsexual people have an easier life, is wanting a patriarchal system? because if its a choice between self-ID...and repealing the entire act...I chose repealing tbh. Though I would much rather the compromise we have which helps transsexual people whilst also keeping pisstakers and fetishists out.

And that was one example of MANY. Its not a rare example, but then again it wouldn't be, given these days any man can declare himself a woman and be treated as such in statistics and new stories. And obviously its mainly men who commit sexual crimes. So it makes a lot of sense that a lot of those who currently 'identify' as women (often without changing anything) are just your bog standard pervert. And I don't think there is ever an excuse to lock up female prisoners with male rapists. Thats just ridiculous, yet happening.

[Vicky.]

I don’t believe you should be classed as a woman until you get rid of the penis.
Until then you should not be allowed in female prisons or toilets.
Perhaps the disabled toilets could be renamed and shared between disabled and trans.
I know wouldn’t have a problem with that at all.

I don't think this is an acceptable solution. I do understand why people think thats an acceptable compromise, however disabled people fought very hard, for a long time for disabled loos and such. To just decide that men who like wearing a dress on fridays should be able to use disabled loos..well no.

And no , thats not hyperbole either. Such men are classed as women on the days they wear a dress. Infact a guy like this recently got an award for 'women in business' when hes basically a part time transvestite. Thats been quite publicized, and has woke up a lot of people to the issue too.

However I agree that no penis should be the requirement for womens areas. Its absolutely insane to me that some people think its fine for preop people to use female changing rooms.

And whats interesting is (and many on this site will not like me saying this) its accepted that transwomen do not want to use the mens loos because they are scared of male violence. Fair enough. However, when women say they do not want males in their areas because they are scared of male violence, they are declared bigots. So, how does that work? Answers on a postcard. Thats why I think the only solution to all of this is a further unisex option being made available wherever possible. Much like disabled areas, just not colonizing disabled areas.

[Maru]

Utter utter hyperbole. Noone wants trans people to have to stay indoors. Noone wants them to not have human rights.

The current system is fine. Transwomen can be moved to female prisons if they have a GRC. Which can be gained by having doctors agree you have gender dysphoria. And with a small fee, that is waived if you have a low income. The GRC system was made with it in mind that transsexuals were a very small number of people, it was estimated to help 5000 people. Today, just under 5000 people have a GRC, so its working exactly as intended. But transactivists say that such a small number of people having one is proof its not working, as there are 500,000 'trans' people in the UK. This is with the ever widening definition of trans of course. Not with what people think of when they hear trans...which is transsexual.

No reason at all to change this system, which helps transsexuals, while also keeping out fetishists and such. It puzzled me for a long time why transactivists were fighting for 'self ID'. Until it clicked, that transactivism in its current form is nothing more than a mens sexual rights movement. Now their behaviour and demands make so much sense.

Can you cite this paragraph, Vicky? For my own general research...


Great discussion all around :clap1:

On what has been discussed so far

It's interesting hearing what others have to say about women's rights. It does make me uncomfortable that other groups have managed to commandeer the cornerstone of Feminism and usurp that voice to play out their own selfish end(s). It's not just an issue with trans activists. It seems like a quite a few interest groups have been seeping into the young women's movement(s) for some time now. Even if in many cases, it's not actually doing actual women any favors... small detail.

The gas-lighting that occurs when a woman of her own volition decides to speak up in criticism of said direction, should be disturbing. I've been watching #walkaway videos on and off. (#walkaway = people who are leaving Democrats/Progressive-ism). There's a fair amount of older women, some who are LGBT, who have long histories of campaigning for women's rights who are now being blackballed by their own interest group. Wha? That should make zero sense to us. Moreover, women are being kicked out of her own movement for not agreeing on non-women's related issues? That women are no longer allowed to be mutual champions of their own cause? They must be questioned? And yet they want to be unquestioned on the public stage when it comes to women's rights? :spin:

Imo, a circus it has become, that adopts some strange unconventional philosophy alien to most people. The young particularly, are pressured to buy in it without opposition... I would lose my practical sh** if I were the mother... I don't see how anything healthy for society, much less equity, equality or whatever we want to call these things can ever come from such a situation... so in my view, it's a total dud. A failure.

I think it's gone this way because the only way a fanatics voice can be heard in this environment is to be an ad-hoc for other interests groups who will gladly let them do the dirty work i.e. be the face... meanwhile hurting actual women ... and we can't bring up within the movement itself, as it will invite accusations of major moral failings and to be labeled "definitely not a feminist"... riight... who is gas-lighting who, now? :laugh:

BTW, my major beef with Self-ID is that it's not practical... imo, the culture is the "mask" in which we view which solutions we should adopt. If it can't work culturally, then it will certainly fail to work in legal... forcing it with law will not force it to work culturally.. maybe with some coaxing on particular issues, we can trick people to go along for a while, but it will be found out eventually... like a lot of things are being figured out now about some of our politics. (well, not even just now, but in general...)

[Vicky.]

Cite which paragraph maru, and from where? Sorry I am drawing a blank at what you are meaning, and no doubt once you explain further it will make a lot of sense, but genuinely cannot understand right no :laugh:

[Oliver_W]

I don’t believe you should be classed as a woman until you get rid of the penis.

I don't see the point in this as they'll always be biologically male, no matter what they have done to their penis. Inverting it won't make them any more female, so I'm not gonna base how I see them based on it. Transwomen are transwomen.

Until then you should not be allowed in female prisons or toilets.

But this I agree with.

[Maru]

Cite which paragraph maru, and from where? Sorry I am drawing a blank at what you are meaning, and no doubt once you explain further it will make a lot of sense, but genuinely cannot understand right no :laugh:

The transactivists ~= men's rights activist portion

[Maru]

I don't see the point in this as they'll always be biologically male, no matter what they have done to their penis. Inverting it won't make them any more female, so I'm not gonna base how I see them based on it. Transwomen are transwomen.


But this I agree with.

Yeah if they're full-time the other sex, then I would regard them as their converted sex. But legally, there has to be some common sense... but the thing with toilets, it's not like we ask people for their ID when they go to the restroom... so not sure how that could really be enforced? After all, I think I read that they can get a diagnose after living as the opposite sex for a time, and well... part of that would mean entering the restrooms I think? (How does that work, I wonder?)

[Vicky.]

The transactivists ~= men's rights activist portion

Oh thats just my own personal opinion on the matter tbh.

Obviously goes a lot deeper than this, and there are multiple other examples, but its very clear to me that the majority of transactivists are just MRAs with a new angle to attack womens rights. This image gives the gist of it, though maybe is a bit childish :laugh:


(AGAIN, though it shouldn't need saying, I am not saying all transsexual women are MRAs. But I do feel that the majority of transactivists, especially ones I have personally encountered are. And I think your common garden variety misogynist is very attracted to this movement as they get to tell women to shut the **** up AND seem all 'woke' when doing so. Seems to attract a lot of incels too.)



Late edit - did you mean can you cite it? If so, then yes of course. Feel free to swipe any of my posts for stuff like that really. Question confused me :laugh:

[Maru]

Oh thats just my own personal opinion on the matter tbh.

Obviously goes a lot deeper than this, and there are multiple other examples, but its very clear to me that the majority of transactivists are just MRAs with a new angle to attack womens rights. This image gives the gist of it, though maybe is a bit childish :laugh:


(AGAIN, though it shouldn't need saying, I am not saying all transsexual women are MRAs. But I do feel that the majority of transactivists, especially ones I have personally encountered are. And I think your common garden variety misogynist is very attracted to this movement as they get to tell women to shut the **** up AND seem all 'woke' when doing so. Seems to attract a lot of incels too.)

Whatever the case, Vicky, that's a really interesting theory. Some keen insight there. Even if it's only a subconscious thing, I could see that playing out to some degree as you say... it's certainly more convincing than throwing around the word "patriarchy" anytime someone wants to get their point across... in your points, it sounds like you and even Livia may have touched on a nerve, things going on beneath the surface that maybe we discount somewhat with the topic of the moment being transactivism. :laugh:

Myself though, my distraction is probably that I do tend to think men get an unfair wrap sometimes. It does take mutual cooperation for any lasting changes to occur, something we have forgotten in an era that centers around the activists themselves.

I do see the sexes as two necessary forces in life that are forced to work together, even if they often don't want to. Kind of life marriage, really :laugh:... one can't live without the other and so-on... our society would fall apart. So I do think there is a breaking point when either or one of the sexes is put underneath a lot of stress... as we've seen in the past and are seeing today.

I don't think I've ever met someone who is an MRA? So I don't have a mental framework for those type of folk, how they would think. I think the closest equivalent are maybe some people I'd seen or heard about on YT. It's hard to tell how much of that is authentic hough, with everything being about inducing shock vs. woke-ness...

I know we all know some men who have issues with the patronizing attitude that comes from Feminism towards them and their own thought-processes... that they just can't help but be men, and yet, are supposed to help it at the same time :spin: ... and there are some great reasons for some of that criticism imo. To be fair, I prefer a world where we criticize and criticize often... as long as it remains constructive and not destructive... that's the balance.

Edit: Also that image was hilarious...

[Vicky.]

I don't mean MRA as in someone who is actually concerned about the rights of men.

I mean MRA as in, extremely problematic misogynist who blames feminists for everything and basically only 'what about the men's as a way of slating feminism and women in general.

I believe transactivism in its current form (again, not people actually concerned for the rights of transsexual people) is a backlash against feminism, against the gains women have made recently. Afterall, what better way to destroy womens rights, than to open them up to men too. Transactivism gives men who dislike women intensely (as many transactivists do) a 'woke' excuse to tell women to shut the **** up, to discredit them, and to threaten them in very...MRA like ways. Like threatening to rape them or their children. I think the whole thing we have today is kind of the perfect storm. Of course most people have sympathy for transsexual people, but I think many nefarious kinds of people are piggybacking on a genuine cause, for their own gains. This includes

-MRAs who just hate women/feminism in general. Not much needs said on this issue really. Anyone can see why such types would be attracted to this movement.

-Incels who wish to guilt trip people into sleeping with them. There are many many people currently trying to guilt trip lesbians into shagging male people. Theres been workshops about this. Its nicknamed the 'cotton ceiling' and its just ****ing disgusting. I have spoken to a fair few lesbians who have had issues with this. 'Transwomen' yelling transphobia when the lesbian refused to shag their very male self. Of cause transsexual people who are attracted to women understand that lesbians may not be attracted to them..again they are not the problem here. Its 'transgender' males...often those who have made no physical changes whatsoever, who assert their right to sex. And become very bitter when told no. Unfortunately when attached to the 'trans' label, its not looked at like regular incel behaviour and laughed away and ridiculed. Its taken seriously and there are a fair few lefty dudebros in the wings waiting to attack any lesbian woman who asserts her boundaries. Becuse 'transphobia'. As a very prominent and well known example...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5GYlZKfBmI
But this ridiculous type of view is fairly widespread among todays 'transactivists'

-Homophobes. Lesbophobes in particular. See above cotton ceiling which is self explanatory. But it goes a bit deeper than that. Many many gay people are gender non-conforming. I would say most people are to some extent ,but its more prominent in the LGB community. The likes of butch lesbians are being pressured to become transmen, as they are clearly really men. They cannot possibly just be butch women. Ontop of this you have Mermaids and such pushing for child transition (Mermaids is a pressure group, who there have been issues with in the past. https://4thwavenow.com/2016/11/12/the-boy-who-lived-in-stealth/ ). When the huge majority of children who are gender questioning....essentially grow out of it, and the majority of these children will simply grow up to be gay. Where, when put on 'puberty blockers (read. cancer drugs) near 100% of these children will go on to transition. Essentially 'transing away the gay'

-Paedophiles. Hot on the heels of 'child transition', of course paedophiles have a special interest in all of this too. Putting young children on puberty blockers, creates 'legal children'. This part is hard for me to talk about as it sickens me too much so I won't go into it too much..but joining the dots here should be easy enough. Also allowing children to make the huge decision to 'change sex' opens the doors for really...saying children can consent for stuff. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see, if this is all still going in a few years, people pushing to lower the age of consent. Lets not forget that paedophiles tried (luckily unsuccessfully) to piggyback on the back of the LGB community once before. Not sure if anyone on here remembers the Paedophile Information Exchange, and how they attached themselves to those campaigning for gay rights. And how their movement was very nearly successful. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paedophile_Information_Exchange .

-Sexual predators. Again, self explanatory. Wanting easier access to women and children.
If any man has access to female areas, this benefits this group immensely. The prison service warned against this during Maria Millers Trans Equality Report...during which, she ignored womens groups and basically anyone who spoke of any potential problems, and invited only those entirely unquestioning of the transactivists narrative to give further evidence. One pf the prominent transactivists consulted for the report, was Jess Bradley. Jess is currently suspended from their job as NUS trans officer. As a blog was discovered where Jess was unveiling Jess' penis to unsuspecting members of the public, including getting it out at Jess' desk at work. People like Jess have a vested interest in opening up female areas to everyone, as Jess' hobby is flashing. Infact a fair few prominent transactivists have dodgy pasts/present behaviour. Jess, and people like Jess have been a huge part of the way things are today, where businesses/schools have been misled to think that single sex areas are illegal and girlscouts have gone mixed sex by stealth. But I swear this post would go on forever if I went into all of that and most people will just dismiss it anyway. Only reason I am going into so much detail here is because I know you will actually read it maru :p I only really do this when talking to you or jack.

I may possibly have forgotten some other groups I believe are involved in this perfect storm...as its late and I am half asleep. Of course, though again it shouldn't need to be said as it should be taken as a given really, I am not saying that all transsexual people are predators, or homophobes or whatever. This is my observations/thoughts on transactivism as it stands today. Its not about the rights of transsexual people at all. Infact transsexual people are branded truscum by todays transactivists and get just as much abuse as women do. Which proves in itself that this is not about transsexuals.

A couple of links on the topic that I have bookmarked. One is a wider explanation of it all. The other is a recent explanation from a gay man who was until recently very involved with Stonewall and used to run 'Queer up North' who has recently started speaking out on this. Some of his other pieces are really good too, should be able to follow them from that link if you feel like it. Also petition to Stonewall..by Jonny and a bunch of prominent LGBT people, including some transsexuals.

https://notthenewsinbriefs.wordpress.com/2017/11/26/when-womens-rights-are-notadebate/
https://medium.com/@JonnnyBest/calling-all-gay-men-women-need-you-to-speak-up-please-read-this-9df277ecb59e
https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach


And finally, a glossary of a load of stuff about this topic. I know people on here will take the piss for a mumsnet link, but **** it tbh. Its one of the only places on the internet women can actually talk about this issue that will affect/has affected us, though men keep claiming it won't/doesn't

https://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3335962-Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-I-have-noticed-here?pg=1


So yeah. Long post, but you have my theory on it all. Yet again, not claiming all, or even most transsexual people are like this. Transsexdual people are not the problem. Other people are, and especially transactivists/MRA.s

[Ammi]

fDSOP_j7HZE

:skull:

Completely siding with India here.

...just going back to the OP and the vid...I really can’t gel with this ‘feminst’ at all..and I guess it goes back to what TS said, in how femist is defined, which is varying quite a lot it seems...I mean I have not once in my life experienced women defined as cervix havers or menstruators or chest feeders...yeah, maybe pregnant people..like ‘she’s a pregnant woman’ type thing, when it’s relevant to refer to a pregnancy for some reason...she doesn’t represent a world I know as a woman...she talks about one person who apparently wears a dress one day a week who has been given an award...I have no idea who Philip Bunce is but whoever he is...he’s one person so not a representative..anyways I couldn’t really get much further in the vid in trying to rewatch it and I can’t recall it all from before...Because it makes me so sad for transgender people...what does living as a woman mean...WHAT DOES LIVING AS A WOMAN MEAN..!!! ..define it for me..!!!!...well I guess it’s defined as the same as what does living as a man mean...a woman living within her gender or a man living within his gender, everything matching and everything fitting in terms of the body born into, would be how I would define...India will never be a cervix haver...she can never menstruate so can’t be a menstruator...or a chest feeder..because she’s not a born woman and that can’t ever change...So either in a man body of the past or a woman body of now, I doubt she sees herself as ever having experiences of any priveledge of either gender...she can though live her life as what she feels she is...a woman...

[bots]

Wow thanks for all that detail Vicky, it's certainly clarified a lot of detail for me.

On the topic of safe spaces. I don't really see toilets as being safe spaces at all and perhaps thats part of my problem understanding some of the discussion.

There is a primary functional difference between a mens and womans toilet ... one has a urinal and the other doesnt, and that is there to service the differences in anatomy between a man and a woman. So, someone with a dick, should use the toilets with a urinal if we are looking at things logically.

From a male perspective, I don't associate toilets with safe spaces at all. One only has to look at well publicised cases featuring MP's and George Michael to name a few, where it has been a decidedly unsafe space.

What I'm trying to say i think is that there are places where people are more vulnerable than they would be otherwise and the solution to that vulnerability has to be more all encompassing than segregation by anatomy. People should just be safe and protected from predators in going about their daily lives ... and that is the ultimate goal surely.

[Livia]

Just to echo what Bots has said, thanks Vicky. I always read your posts on this particular subject because they're packed with facts and make the subject so much easier to get my head around. You kind of put into words what I'm thinking.

And thanks everyone who's posted so far... it's been enlightening and interesting.

[Elliot]

Legitimately curious, to people in this thread what constitutes as an mra? I don’t really call myself a feminist or mra but whenever I state my values or what I believe on certain topic I get told stuff like ‘well by definition you’re a feminist since it’s literally just the term for advocacy of women’s rights’ and in a sense couldn’t someone use this inflection to go, for example supporting the idea of domestic abuse shelters for men, that I’m an mra? And thus since it seems to be a dirty word, such as feminist is in a lot of circles..

Idk it just seems weird to me because at the end of the day they’re only labels but I’ve had people take me to down on the guilt by association when it comes to using the word feminism debate but these same people also slate mras so :shrug:

[Livia]

Elliot, have a Google around and look at some of the MRA nonsense out there.

[Vicky.]

I don't believe feminism is 'wanting everyone to be equal'. Thats egalitarianism. IMO feminism is a movement about the liberation of female people. Equality (or equity as I posted up thread) is the end goal, but its about female people on the whole. As such the endless calls to centre male people in feminism are bizarre to me. Kind of like how you wouldn't expect black lives matter to be fighting for people who are not black, though they may still care about non-blacks :shrug:

MRA, as I said...is not someone genuinely concerned for the rights of men. The MRAs I am talking about only make out they care about men as a stick to beat feminists with. Google MRA..tbh. Theres plenty out there that explains it all better than I could :laugh:

Ammi, sadly cervix havers and menstruators and such is very common language in todays world, where the very meaning of the word woman is apparently offensive. I do think Posie was harsh with India, but again will point out that she was not there to discuss India in the first place, its not about each single transsexual person, and its generally not about transsexual people (especially post op) at all.

I don't class loos as 'safe spaces' either tbh. Loos is just my go to area when discussing these issues because transactivists always drag it back to loos, so its a habit really. Loos is easily solved by chucking money at it, unisex would be fine as long as they are all single contained units like disabled toilets are now. Its changing rooms, refuges and prisons and such where it becomes much trickier, but we are expected to think its perfectly fine to allow any and all males into these female areas, and are bigots if we refuse or bring up potential problems.

As for Bunce, yes he is one person. But thats one woman who did not make the list that should have..all because a bloke who wears a dres 2 days a week is apparently a woman. Again, its not just one example. 2 main ones off the top of my head are the first 'female soldier' on the front line, widely hailed fantastic, but he completed his training as a man and had only started identifying as trans after being caught crossdressing. And when Sharon Maguire should have had an award for the first female director to direct a movie trilogy...the Matrix brothers kicked off. Because they had now decided they were women despite identifying as men while directing the films...so again, a woman has an achievement taken away because of men.

https://www.bustle.com/articles/183525-bridget-joness-baby-is-the-second-movie-trilogy-with-all-female-directors-but-thats-just-one

Yes, 2 men directing films is a crack in the glass ceiling. You couldn't make it up.

[mxhunter]

Male suicide, for example, is one of many examples of real and genuine men's rights issues that I find are dismissed and rejected by self identifying feminists more often than they should be. At the same time, I've never seen a self identifying MRA who doesn't blatantly have deep issues with women and who doesn't have clear and obvious dysfunctions e.g. a lack of social skills. In this day and age I'm a bit suspicious of the motives of anyone who identifies with any of the mainstream movements. I agree with the post on the first page which says these movements need to start again.

On the trans issue I do agree with some of what Posie and Magdalen Berns on YouTube say. I think that women approached pretty close to equal rights in many ways in recent years but it's all rapidly being taken away from them again by, for example, letting men into their prisons. As a gay man I think that trans people should be able to live and love as they desire. But at the end of the day you cannot change biology and you simply cannot change your sex. Designating people born in a female body as being equal in status to men who dress in women's clothes and perhaps take hormones I think is actually kind of insulting to women in the context of their historical fight for rights.

This is a good video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pxxBQm114k

[Livia]

An interesting read there, mxhunter.

[Maru]

@Vicky, what a wonderful post... I see others here have added some interesting material too. I will have to get through your links and think on it a bit... on first read, I do agree with you, it seems like a topic you can keep extrapolating until it is an essay... but actually, if we are quite passionate on a topic, that's to be expected imo. I don't feel like people don't read my posts because of length, so I think post more like this :love: ... even if they scan-read, it's still very informative, and helps laypersons to see the multiple dimensions of an issue...

I think SD is a great platform for that. It does get monotonous when it's simply just "I hate XYZ... "... 3 sentences on why XYZ sucks and most is highly emotional... I like to know why people come to their conclusions... and your post in particular, seem like you are quite intuitive as well in your thought processes. Sometimes we "know" before we know, but looking at the information you presented. I can easily see why you feel so strongly on this issue.

Just in the short, because other people brought it up--on the MRA thing. Unrelated to your posts, but just my thoughts. I know you're probably talking about the more extreme variety. I don't think it is a bad thing there are men's right's activist group in general though. I'm sure the core of the moment is occupied by all sorts of loser-ish folk... just like I feel that way with the women's movement atm :laugh:... but there are men who really don't have any other outlet. So they take to things like social media, Twitter, YT and it comes out in a very unhealthy manner... "well you women this and that you did stuff"... all about the yous and the Is... something I purposefully filter out of my posts as needed, because I know they tend to be littered in posts of folk who are very irate and reactionary... and it does automatically send the reader's mood/perception of those opinions as the "you versus them" category...

I don't think this push-back towards men for having any sort of dissenting opinion at all is very healthy. Like in the US, just general people... particularly men, speaking up for issues relating to white-folk and their perception of current issues. They're automatically put into the alt-right bucket in the mainstream, and so to the average folk, is that is their "ear piece" to that side of things... they may not want to have these discussions and may automatically disregard all men on the basis of those topics. That's really not healthy for discourse in a country... and I think that's a large part of why we are where we are at, is this keenness for ignorance on issues of sex-matters.

So instead, we get the loudest of folk who speak for us instead... and let's be honest. Those people really suck at that unofficial job.

Anyway, that is why I liked to hear your view, because it's not in the mainstream... and it's something I would never hear otherwise unless I had asked. I don't think relations between the sexes is as bad as either groups would say... (MRA, Feminists, etc)... but there's decades of rust there that needs to be gotten through first before we can reopen our hearts and minds the proper way... after all, men have been told the issue was resolved and it doesn't required their input, just their compliance. Women on the other hand, do enjoy an upper-hand in the media. It's not very often at all we ever hear about men's issues... particularly with sexual violence and domestic violence. Which unfortunately I know several victims... and we never hear from trans-men either... What is up with that? Is there a stigma that hangs over that that we are unaware of?

And I don't think the media is has enough itself enough proper balance for these issues to be redressed... Anyway, my passions will always be for the children and the disabled... who really do get have it much worse than any group.

But yes, I will have to come back to your post specifically... the group analysis-es you mentioned... because I want to.

As it relates to trans, we have to admit though, that this tension between the biological sexes that has risen is playing out in a bad way for trans-folk... almost like the child *(we'll call them "Taylor")*, in a bad divorce...

"I love Taylor more and I treat them much better than you ever did!"... "But I have Taylor's best interests, and I'll be the one paying for most of it... you spoil them too much!"... etc