Punk-ass 15 year old kid gets taught lesson by Bus Driver

[Crimson Dynamo]

but whose team are you on?


#busdriver

#punkasskid

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6365089/Raging-driver-pushes-teenager-bus.html

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/11/07/22/5905566-6365089-image-m-25_1541630790245.jpg

[Cherie]

'I'm only 15' :laugh:


Bus driver 1
Punk ass kid 0

[Matthew.]

they’re both in the wrong

[arista]

they’re both in the wrong


Rubbish the Punk kid started it

[Matthew.]

Rubbish the Punk kid started it


maybe so but the bus driver is also in the wrong for pushing him like that

[arista]

maybe so but he’s also in the wrong for pushing him like that


It did the Punk Kid
a good lesson in Life

[Matthew.]

It did the Punk Kid
a good lesson in Life

nah i disagree

(in spite of what my sig says :worry:)

[MTVN]

Well the driver threatened to knock him out and then shoved him which is probably worse than being called a prick

[arista]

nah i disagree

(in spite of what my sig says :worry:)



You sig is not viewable TO ME

[Niamh.]

Well the driver threatened to knock him out and then shoved him which is probably worse than being called a prick

yeah exactly, you can't put your hands on someone over words(especially a minor), I think the law would agree with that too

[arista]

It's a Edited video

Made the Phone Call recorder get Cash from the DM.


It should on that region local news
with the full story

[Crimson Dynamo]

Typical Will

[Matthew.]

You sig is not viewable TO ME

neither is yours

[Livia]

Perhaps if someone had put their hands on him when he was younger... his parents perhaps... he wouldn't be such an arsehole now. "I'm only 15" means I can say pretty much anything I like to you and you have to let me.

[Crimson Dynamo]

we dont see all the cheek and abuse he gave the driver when he was being billy big-bollocks all we see is when his tail was between his legs when he got called out

[Vanessa]

I think they're both in the wrong.
Last week i was on the bus, on my way home. A driver let a kid who didn't have enough credit on his oyster card, stay.
I thought that was very kind of him.
And the kid was very well behaved. That gives me hope.

[thesheriff443]

An action creats an action, society is breaking down, we the death penalty back to give normal people hope that you can’t do what you like to others.

[Niamh.]

Perhaps if someone had put their hands on him when he was younger... his parents perhaps... he wouldn't be such an arsehole now. "I'm only 15" means I can say pretty much anything I like to you and you have to let me.

How do you know they didn't?

[arista]

neither is yours



I do not need one
I am at a higher level

[thesheriff443]

Had a good chat with a retired prison officer who worked with grade a prisoners,

He was saying once they had a dangerous sex offender who due for parole, the did a prison search and found notes detailing plans for his next crime involving a 14 year old boy raping torturing him and rapping him in barbed wire they took what they found to the govnor but no action was taken.

The prisoner was released and a month later he committed the crime word for word.

[Livia]

How do you know they didn't?

The boy's sense of impunity and entitlement. The way he acted like an arsehole and then once he'd wound the bloke up like he's a man, fell back on the fact he is 15.

[arista]

I think they're both in the wrong.
Last week i was on the bus, on my way home. A driver let a kid who didn't have enough credit on his oyster card, stay.
I thought that was very kind of him.
And the kid was very well behaved. That gives me hope.


Yes that's a better situation.

[MTVN]

Had a good chat with a retired prison officer who worked with grade a prisoners,

He was saying once they had a dangerous sex offender who due for parole, the did a prison search and found notes detailing plans for his next crime involving a 14 year old boy raping torturing him and rapping him in barbed wire they took what they found to the govnor but no action was taken.

The prisoner was released and a month later he committed the crime word for word.

What's that got to do with this thread :unsure:

[Livia]

I think they're both in the wrong.
Last week i was on the bus, on my way home. A driver let a kid who didn't have enough credit on his oyster card, stay.
I thought that was very kind of him.
And the kid was very well behaved. That gives me hope.

It's good to remember that 15 year olds are usually good kids.

[Vanessa]

It's good to remember that 15 year olds are usually good kids.

I think so, yes. Most of the time.

[arista]

Perhaps if someone had put their hands on him when he was younger... his parents perhaps... he wouldn't be such an arsehole now. "I'm only 15" means I can say pretty much anything I like to you and you have to let me.



Yes his Parents
need to sort his attitude out.

[Matthew.]

I do not need one
I am at a higher level

ok

[thesheriff443]

What's that got to do with this thread :unsure:

It’s real life and a example of the prison system not working.

People know how to use the system, I’m only 15 so the adult is responsible.

15 year olds are killing and raping.

[Niamh.]

The boy's sense of impunity and entitlement. The way he acted like an arsehole and then once he'd wound the bloke up like he's a man, fell back on the fact he is 15.

From what I've read on the subject of corporal punishment a child is more likely to grow up violent/aggressive if they're hit when kids

[thesheriff443]

From what I've read on the subject of corporal punishment a child is more likely to grow up violent/aggressive if they're hit when kids

Monkey see monkey do.

[Niamh.]

Monkey see monkey do.

Pretty much

[thesheriff443]

Pretty much

But it can go the other way,

Kids traumatised or the grow up and be better to their own kids

[Niamh.]

But it can go the other way,

Kids traumatised or the grow up and be better to their own kids

Either scenario says hitting your kids as punishment is the lazy option. Not hitting your kids as a discipline method doesn't mean you let your kids do whatever they want, there are better, non violent options

[user104658]

From what I've read on the subject of corporal punishment a child is more likely to grow up violent/aggressive if they're hit when kids

You know better than that Niamh! Letting years of research and verified statistical analysis get in the way of a good old bit of baseless opinion and anecdotal nothingness. Of course if this kid's dad had given him a couple of black eyes when he was a kid he would have grown up to be respectful towards bus drivers. That's just obvious.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I do not need one
I am at a higher level

:joker:

[Niamh.]

You know better than that Niamh! Letting years of research and verified statistical analysis get in the way of a good old bit of baseless opinion and anecdotal nothingness. Of course if this kid's dad had given him a couple of black eyes when he was a kid he would have grown up to be respectful towards bus drivers. That's just obvious.

:laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

You know better than that Niamh! Letting years of research and verified statistical analysis get in the way of a good old bit of baseless opinion and anecdotal nothingness. Of course if this kid's dad had given him a couple of black eyes when he was a kid he would have grown up to be respectful towards bus drivers. That's just obvious.

what research is this?

[Livia]

From what I've read on the subject of corporal punishment a child is more likely to grow up violent/aggressive if they're hit when kids

Well that's what they say. And whether or not this kid was hit as a child one thing's for sure... his parents won't take responsibility and lots of people will make excuses for him and his bad behaviour. Thing is, if he carries on he'll end up being properly beaten by someone bigger and nastier, and once he's turned 18 no one will care whether he had a hard childhood or not.

[Livia]

what research is this?

Research that doesn't know or show the difference between beating and chastising. Smacking a child and beating the sh1t out of it.

I truly regret saying anything because it's turned this kid into some kind of bleeding heart case. No one knows what his childhood was like. Maybe if he'd had more discipline (is that more acceptable?) then he wouldn't be such an arsehole.

[Niamh.]

Research that doesn't know or show the difference between beating and chastising. Smacking a child and beating the sh1t out of it.

I truly regret saying anything because it's turned this kid into some kind of bleeding heart case. No one knows what his childhood was like. Maybe if he'd had more discipline (is that more acceptable?) they he wouldn't be such an arsehole.

Chastising can be done without actually becoming psychical.

[Livia]

Chastising can be done without actually becoming psychical.

Like I said, I regret saying what I said because it's changed the whole tone of the discussion and made this awful kid into some kind of victim.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I was smacked as a child and im ok

so

[thesheriff443]

Like I said, I regret saying what I said because it's changed the whole tone of the discussion and made this awful kid into some kind of victim.

Most of the time on here it’s who is saying something not what they are saying.

Lt gets jumped on more times than a free bouncy castle.

[thesheriff443]

I was smacked as a child and im ok

so

I think I need to continue with you. Lol

[Cherie]

Perhaps if someone had put their hands on him when he was younger... his parents perhaps... he wouldn't be such an arsehole now. "I'm only 15" means I can say pretty much anything I like to you and you have to let me.

That's the way I see it too, well aware of how far he can push things with no consequences

[Niamh.]

Most of the time on here it’s who is saying something not what they are saying.

Lt gets jumped on more times than a free bouncy castle.

Are you accusing me of not having that opinion consistently? because I do....and I like Livia and LT so there goes that theory

[thesheriff443]

Are you accusing me of not having that opinion consistently? because I do....and I like Livia and LT so there goes that theory

I never mentioned your name Niamh so stop jumping to conclusions.

[Niamh.]

I never mentioned your name Niamh so stop jumping to conclusions.

It was a pretty easy conclusion to jump to considering I was the only one speaking to Livia on the opposite side, who were you talking about then because there literally was no one else involved?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Most of the time on here it’s who is saying something not what they are saying.

Lt gets jumped on more times than a free bouncy castle.

amem sister


http://www.stgeorgeministry.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/fyodor-bronnikov-martyr-on-circus-ring-full.jpg

[Cherie]

or is he saying I am only 15 to travel for free :shrug:

if there were more discipline and respect maybe the young mainly men who have ended up dead with a knife in their guts might still be alive, a small shove to put your in your place v a knife in the gut....you choose

[user104658]

or is he saying I am only 15 to travel for free :shrug:

if there were more discipline and respect maybe the young mainly men who have ended up dead with a knife in their guts might still be alive, a small shove to put your in your place v a knife in the gut....you chooseSo adults demonstrating that violence is a way to solve problems makes it LESS likely that kids / teens will use violence to solve their problems?

It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't, and it never will, no matter how much people want it to, there is simply zero evidence base behind the idea that corporal punishment teaches respect, and there is an ample evidence base behind the statistically verified fact that violence (whether its "well meaning" or apparently "justified" or not) begets violence. I get that people don't like that and want something else to be true, but it just isn't. People have been examining this issue for a very long time.

This kid being physically grabbed / pushed by this bus driver will have made him much more likely to grab / push other people in future. Especially if people are congratulating the driver and saying that he did the right thing. It's positive reinforcement of violence and its pretty much just that simple.

[Crimson Dynamo]

So adults demonstrating that violence is a way to solve problems makes it LESS likely that kids / teens will use violence to solve their problems?

It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't, and it never will, no matter how much people want it to, there is simply zero evidence base behind the idea that corporal punishment teaches respect, and there is an ample evidence base behind the statistically verified fact that violence (whether its "well meaning" or apparently "justified" or not) begets violence. I get that people don't like that and want something else to be true, but it just isn't. People have been examining this issue for a very long time.

This kid being physically grabbed / pushed by this bus driver will have made him much more likely to grab / push other people in future. Especially if people are congratulating the driver and saying that he did the right thing. It's positive reinforcement of violence and its pretty much just that simple.

so why is violence at school at record levels?

"Nearly half of school support staff across England experience violence at work, with tens of thousands subject to attacks in the classroom on a weekly basis, new figures show"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/school-funding-cuts-support-staff-violence-attacks-a8527906.html

[thesheriff443]

It was a pretty easy conclusion to jump to considering I was the only one speaking to Livia on the opposite side, who were you talking about then because there literally was no one else involved?

It was in answer to Livia wishing she never said anything, as we all do on here at times, just not worth the bloody hassle, this being a prime example.

[user104658]

so why is violence at school at record levels?

"Nearly half of school support staff across England experience violence at work, with tens of thousands subject to attacks in the classroom on a weekly basis, new figures show"

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/school-funding-cuts-support-staff-violence-attacks-a8527906.html

A vast array of complex social and economic changes, the rise of social media (though I will freely admit this is mainly just my opinion), the breakdown of communities and extended families promoted by neoliberal capitalism and consumerism... to name a few suggestions.

Why on earth would you simply assume that it's "because they don't get hit enough"? It makes no sense at all especially given that - in general - kids who come from solid, respectful homes who do NOT physically punish or harm each other, are the LEAST likely to be attacking or harming other pupils or staff in schools.

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. That's the absolute basics, LT. You can't say "Kids used to get hit more. Staff used to get assaulted less. Therefore, hitting kids will reduce assaults on staff." It's (literally, demonstrably) not logical.

Here's another fact for you; Bee populations have been declining over the last few decades. And school assaults have been increasing :omgno:. We must consider the bees!! School assaults are increasing because of the lack of bees! Look at the numbers. Less bees since 1995. More assaults since 1995. Undeniable facts.

It's just the same BS logic as the assault on television / gaming. "Kids watch more telly and play more games than 10 years ago and X/Y/Z is a bigger problem than 10 years ago. Therefore, TV / gaming is responsible for X/Y/Z.

Unproven, undemonstrated, unscientific supposition and nonsense opinion.

[Niamh.]

It was in answer to Livia wishing she never said anything, as we all do on here at times, just not worth the bloody hassle, this being a prime example.

So people aren't allowed to disagree in the Serious Debates section?

[Niamh.]

A vast array of complex social and economic changes, the rise of social media (though I will freely admit this is mainly just my opinion), the breakdown of communities and extended families promoted by neoliberal capitalism and consumerism... to name a few suggestions.

Why on earth would you simply assume that it's "because they don't get hit enough"? It makes no sense at all especially given that - in general - kids who come from solid, respectful homes who do NOT physically punish or harm each other, are the LEAST likely to be attacking or harming other pupils or staff in schools.

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation. That's the absolute basics, LT. You can't say "Kids used to get hit more. Staff used to get assaulted less. Therefore, hitting kids will reduce assaults on staff." It's (literally, demonstrably) not logical.

Here's another fact for you; Bee populations have been declining over the last few decades. And school assaults have been increasing :omgno:. We must consider the bees!! School assaults are increasing because of the lack of bees! Look at the numbers. Less bees since 1995. More assaults since 1995. Undeniable facts.

It's just the same BS logic as the assault on television / gaming. "Kids watch more telly and play more games than 10 years ago and X/Y/Z is a bigger problem than 10 years ago. Therefore, TV / gaming is responsible for X/Y/Z.

Unproven, undemonstrated, unscientific supposition and nonsense opinion.

The students no longer Beehave :o

[Jigs]

Kid was almost certainly in the wrong here, despite what we are shown

Young people nowadays know to rein it in when a camera is on them. The kid was fully aware the camera was out and knew to change his stance on the situation to save face when this video was inevitably put on social media. The driver wouldn't have reacted like that for nothing and knowing how kids are nowadays I can safely assume the kid was probably being a lil tosser

[user104658]

The students no longer Beehave :o

The teachers to catch them out in a sting operation or it won't be long until they're swarmed.

[user104658]

Kid was almost certainly in the wrong here, despite what we are shown

Young people nowadays know to rein it in when a camera is on them. The kid was fully aware the camera was out and knew to change his stance on the situation to save face when this video was inevitably put on social media. The driver wouldn't have reacted like that for nothing and knowing how kids are nowadays I can safely assume the kid was probably being a lil tosser

He probably is and I haven't seen anyone try to argue that this was some poor innocent little soul. It doesn't change the fact that a grown man threatening a teenager with "punching their face in" is unacceptable and a stupid / thuggish thing to do. It's also not big or clever... in fact, in my opinion, it makes the guy look pretty pathetic.

In my experience, when kids / teens are acting like this, usually trying to show off, all it takes is a certain look / laughing it off to make them feel suddenly self conscious and a bit daft. They WANT an angry reaction, that's the whole point :shrug:.

[Beso]

bus drivers are just failed bouncers, they all have a disgusting attitude towards passengers..

a passenger should have got up and lamped the bully.

[user104658]

bus drivers are just failed bouncers, they all have a disgusting attitude towards passengers..

a passenger should have got up and lamped the bully.They're 50/50 around here. I have to get the late bus every Saturday because I'm always working but eldest has stage school on a Sat so they need the car... Some of the drivers are great / friendly / occasionally let me on for free. It's the last bus of the day and I get off at the last stop... Usually the only person on it. However, some of them seem to be pissed off that they have a passenger at all :shrug:. I suspect maybe they just skip the last leg of the journey and head straight back to depot otherwise and I've ruined their plans. Well sorry bud, it's no excuse for being rude :hmph:. Especially when as far as I can tell I'm one of the only people in the area actually paying a cash bus fare, with everyone else being on their over-60's bus pass :joker:.

[Ramsay]

I'm sure there's more to it than what we're shown but i can't imagine there was any reason to call him a fat boy and put his hands on the kid

[hijaxers]

Monkey see monkey do.

Yes well he's obv from a family of monkey brain's - no offence to monkeys.

[hijaxers]

I was smacked as a child and im ok

so

Same

[user104658]

To play devil's advocate on the thread, bus drivers do take a bit of abuse and I'd guess this driver had been harassed by a few passengers already and this kid just happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Its still not OK though. Smack of him deciding to take out his frustration on a kid who is clearly much smaller than him... I doubt he'd have been out of his cab so quickly if it was some angry big bloke in his 40's mouthing off. Not a good look, really.

It would be like me having a bad day with the rougher customers and then snapping at Wee Betty for taking too long to remember the numbers she wants for her 49's.

[user104658]

I was smacked as a child and im ok

soAre you though LT? And is just "OK" what we should be striving for in life :worry:.

[Tom4784]

Both are in the wrong but the driver more so for forgetting he is a grown ass man and acting like a child. Embarrassing behaviour from him, he shouldn't work in public facing roles if he can only exacerbate situations and get physical rather than diffuse situations.

He would have been in the right if he only remembered that he was the adult in this situation.

[Tom4784]

As TS said, he wouldn't have tried that with another man who would have likely fought back if he tried to shove them about. Just a weak bully with an immature mind.

[Withano]

Well, the boy called him a prick so obviously the bus driver is allowed to threaten him and aggressively push him.

Christ.

Why are we debating this, he should be charged with assault... he should also grow a pair, a child calling you a name shouldnt make you react this way.

[RileyH]

Good on the bus driver

[Cherie]

So adults demonstrating that violence is a way to solve problems makes it LESS likely that kids / teens will use violence to solve their problems?

It doesn't make sense. It just doesn't, and it never will, no matter how much people want it to, there is simply zero evidence base behind the idea that corporal punishment teaches respect, and there is an ample evidence base behind the statistically verified fact that violence (whether its "well meaning" or apparently "justified" or not) begets violence. I get that people don't like that and want something else to be true, but it just isn't. People have been examining this issue for a very long time.

This kid being physically grabbed / pushed by this bus driver will have made him much more likely to grab / push other people in future. Especially if people are congratulating the driver and saying that he did the right thing. It's positive reinforcement of violence and its pretty much just that simple.


A push is hardly demonstrating violence, if someone tried to enter your home illegally or in a threatening way you would be quite within your rights to push them out, the bus driver is responsible for the bus and his passengers, if he felt this passenger was going to be a threat or cause trouble he had every right to push him off, we don't know the full story here so its difficult to judge why the bus driver reacted but I doubt it was just for being called a prick

If this happened at a hospital reception desk no one would bat an eyelid at the youth being man handled out by security, the guy is on his own, its not like he set about him with a baseball bat, he pushed him off the bus, the only way he let himself down was calling the kid fat, maybe he has done the kid a favour and he will act reasonably in future

[user104658]

A push is hardly demonstrating violence, if someone tried to enter your home illegally or in a threatening way you would be quite within your rights to push them out, the bus driver is responsible for the bus and his passengers, if he felt this passenger was going to be a threat or cause trouble he had every right to push him off, we don't know the full story here so its difficult to judge why the bus driver reacted but I doubt it was just for being called a prick

If this happened at a hospital reception desk no one would bat an eyelid at the youth being man handled out by security, the guy is on his own, its not like he set about him with a baseball bat, he pushed him off the bus, the only way he let himself down was calling the kid fat, maybe he has done the kid a favour and he will act reasonably in future

You are incorrect Cherie, sorry, a bus (like a shop) is not private property. If I physically grabbed or pushed a customer for calling me a name I would be at the very least suspended - would be at risk of being fired - and could be charged with assault. The same applies here.

[user104658]

The ONLY time it's considered acceptable to use physical force is in physical self defence. This is a fact when it comes to legality, and also my strong opinion when it comes to morality. The latter is up for debate but the former I'm afraid is just not; putting your hands on someone for calling you names is assault. It's not a grey area. Whether or not someone is CHARGED with assault for it would depend on if injury was caused, provocation would be taken into account, and so would past conduct. But it's still assault. The bus driver would most likely only be warned not to do it in this case - if he's previously clean. If he makes a habit of it hell end up being charged. Because it isn't legal. :shrug:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

In my day the conductor (yes an actual conductor) would have booted the brat off and given him a thud around the lug (and more if the conductor had been a man)

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/25/01/c4/2501c41173304193be4a657475a1b12a.jpg

[Babayaro.]

what a waste of 10 seconds...


Obviously the whole interaction wasn't recorded so no one can comment on it, really.

[Crimson Dynamo]

what a waste of 10 seconds...


Obviously the whole interaction wasn't recorded so no one can comment on it, really.

when has context and proper information ever stopped us?

[Matthew.]

there’s not really a side to take though, is there

[Beso]

To play devil's advocate on the thread, bus drivers do take a bit of abuse and I'd guess this driver had been harassed by a few passengers already and this kid just happened to be the straw that broke the camel's back. Its still not OK though. Smack of him deciding to take out his frustration on a kid who is clearly much smaller than him... I doubt he'd have been out of his cab so quickly if it was some angry big bloke in his 40's mouthing off. Not a good look, really.

It would be like me having a bad day with the rougher customers and then snapping at Wee Betty for taking too long to remember the numbers she wants for her 49's.

I love the 49s' its my most profitable bookies experience atm

[Tom4784]

A push is hardly demonstrating violence, if someone tried to enter your home illegally or in a threatening way you would be quite within your rights to push them out, the bus driver is responsible for the bus and his passengers, if he felt this passenger was going to be a threat or cause trouble he had every right to push him off, we don't know the full story here so its difficult to judge why the bus driver reacted but I doubt it was just for being called a prick

If this happened at a hospital reception desk no one would bat an eyelid at the youth being man handled out by security, the guy is on his own, its not like he set about him with a baseball bat, he pushed him off the bus, the only way he let himself down was calling the kid fat, maybe he has done the kid a favour and he will act reasonably in future

That's just wrong tbh. Can't compare a private home to a place of business. The driver is in a public facing role, if a situation arises when the driver is receiving abuse then they have to stick to the regulations in how to handle that.

Being called a prick doesn't warrant him insulting them back and putting hands on them, two wrongs do not make a right.

I definitely would do more than bat an eyelid if I saw a disproportionate response like that in a hospital or any other place.

Bit worrying that you think a violent and abusive response is a good way of course correcting someone's behaviour tbh...

If this wasn't a teenage boy, a lot of people who were on the driver's side would not have supported his behaviour.

[Denver]

Has the driver been sacked yet??

[Amy Jade]

If this went down as the guy is saying on facebook that he boarded the bus with a pass that wasn't scanning but had a receipt and the driver took both off him and called him a liar that is bad.

At that age I would have been stranded because I only carried bus money and say £20 and I would go home with a pound if that.

Further more if he simply asked for both back to ask the next driver then he should have been given them back not called names.

If the driver called him fat then him calling the driver a prick isn't far from the truth either.

[Denver]

All buses have CCTV so it will be easy to see who is abusive

[y.winter]

"I'm only 15" = I'm untouchable and can't be held responsible for my actions

Yeah, sounds about right

[user104658]

"I'm only 15" = I'm untouchable and can't be held responsible for my actions

Yeah, sounds about right

He can be held responsible but "being held responsible" doesn't involve physical assault.

[Maru]

At first glance at the video, the guy lost his temper. Kicking him off the bus was fine. If the kid had touched him and threatened him, I'd understand though.

The "I'm 15" says it all right there. Victim-mentality shouldn't be ingrained like that in our young. If they act stupid and insulting, people sometimes can & will retaliate. The police aren't meant to handle petty disputes like this. I'm for looking the other way for simple disputes. Our jails are full and the police should be busy catching real criminals. My point, we should be able to sort some things out ourselves. Not get police/social media/the journalists involved at every step.

I remember one time my friend & I were horsing around the back of a Metro here. It was empty, but we were a bit loud and it was a long ride. Mostly just being excitable, because we were looking out the windows and talking about the sights. Anyway, the bus driver wasn't happy. He stopped the bus, yelled back at us from his mirror and was ready to open the door. "If y'all don't calm down, you're getting off this bus"... did we have words? No. We both apologized. Then we sat the **** down. Yeah, there's been other bus drivers who were more "cool" about things like that or whatever, but if it's aggravating/distracting to him, then you can't really blame him.

I've seen people who were likely gang-members who are OTT and in some cases threatening who aren't kicked off. Some bus-drivers are legitimately afraid when they're doing their job. Not saying this is this guy's excuse. He seems like he's just fed up with this. I do not think it's worth calling the police over. Though he may lose his job for touching a passenger.

[Maru]

A push is hardly demonstrating violence, if someone tried to enter your home illegally or in a threatening way you would be quite within your rights to push them out, the bus driver is responsible for the bus and his passengers, if he felt this passenger was going to be a threat or cause trouble he had every right to push him off, we don't know the full story here so its difficult to judge why the bus driver reacted but I doubt it was just for being called a prick

If this happened at a hospital reception desk no one would bat an eyelid at the youth being man handled out by security, the guy is on his own, its not like he set about him with a baseball bat, he pushed him off the bus, the only way he let himself down was calling the kid fat, maybe he has done the kid a favour and he will act reasonably in future

That is an interesting take and I wouldn't say it's invalid. It just depends on what society agrees should be the boundaries. Some welfare/social security offices here will kick you out, and yes they will touch to remove you from the premises if you decide to get a little bit too pissy. That may seem OTT to some not accustomed to this, but here, many of these places are really overcrowded and there are all sorts of characters that come into these places. Employees have been touched. I've only been in a few times, but the employees have short-tempers... and to some degree, when you see how many will show up and threaten, lose their sh** over something taking too long or their claim not being expedited, they sort of do have to take matters into own hands sometimes. Literally. They see a lot of resistance.

With city services like metro/transportation, I think the lines are more blurred than that. I would not have a problem with a bus driver removing someone physically from a bus who is being disruptive permitted it's not hitting them in the face and with any force to parts of their body. Just simply a removal from the vehicle. However, it depends on what society, and mainly the passengers helps them feel safe in that environment. So it's not always easy to determine how/where those boundaries should be. Personally, I feel safer when a bus driver does have more tools at their disposal because there are drug runs, gang-related activities, etc that are carried out through public transit. But, we have a police division just for Metro Transit, so probably they have some dispatch potential.

[Cherie]

That is an interesting take and I wouldn't say it's invalid. It just depends on what society agrees should be the boundaries. Some welfare/social security offices here will kick you out, and yes they will touch to remove you from the premises if you decide to get a little bit too pissy. That may seem OTT to some not accustomed to this, but here, many of these places are really overcrowded and there are all sorts of characters that come into these places. Employees have been touched. I've only been in a few times, but the employees have short-tempers... and to some degree, when you see how many will show up and threaten, lose their sh** over something taking too long or their claim not being expedited, they sort of do have to take matters into own hands sometimes. Literally. They see a lot of resistance.

With city services like metro/transportation, I think the lines are more blurred than that. I would not have a problem with a bus driver removing someone physically from a bus who is being disruptive permitted it's not hitting them in the face and with any force to parts of their body. Just simply a removal from the vehicle. However, it depends on what society, and mainly the passengers helps them feel safe in that environment. So it's not always easy to determine how/where those boundaries should be. Personally, I feel safer when a bus driver does have more tools at their disposal because there are drug runs, gang-related activities, etc that are carried out through public transit. But, we have a police division just for Metro Transit, so probably they have some dispatch potential.


There are signs up everywhere, hospitals, schools, shops, abuse towards staff will not be tolerated, I mean the bus driver could have called the police and waited for half an hour, instead he chose to push him off the bus for being abusive, his only crime in my eyes was to call him fat :laugh:

[Crimson Dynamo]

not fat shaming?

:omgno:

[Redway]

Perhaps if someone had put their hands on him when he was younger... his parents perhaps... he wouldn't be such an arsehole now. "I'm only 15" means I can say pretty much anything I like to you and you have to let me.

That.

[Niamh.]

It's very interesting how some people think that unless a child is hit as a kid they won't be well behaved or respectful. I have two really well behaved/respectful teenagers and neither were hit as kids. It's not about hitting your kids, it's about disciplining them, hitting them as a method of discipline is lazy parenting. We don't tolerate adults hitting adults so why is an adult hitting a small child ok? I don't get the logic at all

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's very interesting how some people think that unless a child is hit as a kid they won't be well behaved or respectful. I have two really well behaved/respectful teenagers and neither were hit as kids. It's not about hitting your kids, it's about disciplining them, hitting them as a method of discipline is lazy parenting. We don't tolerate adults hitting adults so why is an adult hitting a small child ok? I don't get the logic at all

its not hitting your kids its about caring and teaching them. Lazy parents are the ones who dont care, let them out to all hours, let them watch and so what they want, eat what they want at home

Chav parents will in general bring up feckless kids whether they smack them or not and good parents will bring up good kids whether they smack or not

Sometimes a wee smack on the bum can save a thousand words but naturally it needs to mean something and teach something and not just because you are angry

etc

[Redway]

Different world cultures.

[Crimson Dynamo]

If my mum was baking stuff for the church and I went into the kitchen and stole some scones she would be after me with a wooden spoon and I knew it so i learned not to.

She also washed my mouth out with soap when i swore at home and I never did it again.

It was fckg horrible, the fat bitch

:oh:

[Redway]

It's very interesting how some people think that unless a child is hit as a kid they won't be well behaved or respectful. I have two really well behaved/respectful teenagers and neither were hit as kids. It's not about hitting your kids, it's about disciplining them, hitting them as a method of discipline is lazy parenting. We don't tolerate adults hitting adults so why is an adult hitting a small child ok? I don't get the logic at all

It’s not lazy parenting in other parts of the world. It’s in the culture.

[Niamh.]

its not hitting your kids its about caring and teaching them. Lazy parents are the ones who dont care, let them out to all hours, let them watch and so what they want, eat what they want at home

Chav parents will in general bring up feckless kids whether they smack them or not and good parents will bring up good kids whether they smack or not

Sometimes a wee smack on the bum can save a thousand words but naturally it needs to mean something and teach something and not just because you are angry

etc

Yeah that's also lazy parenting along with getting physical with a little child, it's totally unnecessary to put your hands on another person just to save some words

[user104658]

Different world cultures.

Cultures are not fixed; it used to be the "culture" in Britain to stick orphans in workhouses to work for their gruel, and not even that long ago, but thankfully an end was put to that without people huffing and puffing about it being "part of our culture". And countless other examples. If something is a **** thing to do then it's a **** thing to do, regardless of culture, and physically attacking someone for any reason other than self-defense is a **** thing to do. Doubly so if it's a child.

[Niamh.]

It’s not lazy parenting in other parts of the world. It’s in the culture.

Using culture as an excuse to hit a small child is ridiculous, are you saying treating women as second class citizens for example is ok because that's a part of alot of cultures? Or imprisoning/killing gay people is ok in some countries because that's part of their culture?

It's lazy parenting in any part of the world, in any culture

[user104658]

its not hitting your kids its about caring and teaching them. Lazy parents are the ones who dont care, let them out to all hours, let them watch and so what they want, eat what they want at home

Chav parents will in general bring up feckless kids whether they smack them or not and good parents will bring up good kids whether they smack or not

Sometimes a wee smack on the bum can save a thousand words but naturally it needs to mean something and teach something and not just because you are angry

etc

BIB2 sounds pretty lazy to me :think:.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yeah that's also lazy parenting along with getting physical with a little child, it's totally unnecessary to put your hands on another person just to save some words

Its not everyones opinion

[Redway]

:fist:Using culture as an excuse to hit a small child is ridiculous, are you saying treating women as second class citizens for example is ok because that's a part of alot of cultures? Or imprisoning/killing gay people is ok in some countries because that's part of their culture?

It's lazy parenting in any part of the world, in any culture

On the contrary kids with non-Western upbringing usually have more respect for their elders.

The kid in question’s 15. Not exactly a small child.

[Redway]

You can’t write off an entire culture’s mode of discipline kids as lazy parenting just because it doesn’t resonate with modern western standards. In’t that a tad offensive?

[Redway]

Cultures are not fixed; it used to be the "culture" in Britain to stick orphans in workhouses to work for their gruel, and not even that long ago, but thankfully an end was put to that without people huffing and puffing about it being "part of our culture". And countless other examples. If something is a **** thing to do then it's a **** thing to do, regardless of culture, and physically attacking someone for any reason other than self-defense is a **** thing to do. Doubly so if it's a child.

Except the kid in question’s more a teenager than a small boy.

[Niamh.]

Its not everyones opinion

Well, it's more than an opinion in Ireland actually as it's illegal here to hit your child

[Crimson Dynamo]

Well, it's more than an opinion in Ireland actually as it's illegal here to hit your child

sure but I doubt many pay heed to that

[y.winter]

It all comes to poor parental skills.
You don't need money or violence to avoid your kid being a little brat.

[Niamh.]

:fist:

On the contrary kids with non-Western upbringing usually have more respect for their elders.

The kid in question’s 15. Not exactly a small child.

Except the post you agreed with said "Perhaps if someone had put their hands on him when he was younger" not when he was 15.

[Redway]

That’s half the world down as poor parents then.

[Redway]

Except the post you agreed with said "Perhaps if someone had put their hands on him when he was younger" not when he was 15.

Livia’s damn right either way.

[user104658]

You can’t write off an entire culture’s mode of discipline kids as lazy parenting just because it doesn’t resonate with modern western standards. In’t that a tad offensive?

I'm pretty comfortable writing off all deliberate violence that is not in self-defence, in all cultures and in all situations, tbqfh. And while I don't think the act itself necessarily comes from a place of laziness... the idea that "I do it cos my parents did it to me, and their parents did it to them, and we're all just peachy", yes, is pretty lazy.

By all means outline to me how and why it is a good idea independently, psychologically and scientifically and then there's a discussion on its merits. "It's just the way we do things!" is none of those things and says absolutely zero about the merits of the practice. :shrug:

[Niamh.]

You can’t write off an entire culture’s mode of discipline kids as lazy parenting just because it doesn’t resonate with modern western standards. In’t that a tad offensive?

It's offensive to disagree with using physical force against a child? I don't think it is no in the same way I disagree with alot of cultural treatments of women in middle eastern countries for example or FGM in some African cultures, is disagreeing with those practices in the name of culture offensive? And if so call my offensive by all means :shrug:

[Niamh.]

sure but I doubt many pay heed to that

Parents of my generation that I would know very well don't hit their kids as far as I'm aware, I've never seen family or friends of mine hit their kids and alot have spoke about being against that sort of discipline too, that's anecdotal of course but that's all I've got I'm afraid :shrug:

[Redway]

I'm pretty comfortable writing off all deliberate violence that is not in self-defence, in all cultures and in all situations, tbqfh. And while I don't think the act itself necessarily comes from a place of laziness... the idea that "I do it cos my parents did it to me, and their parents did it to them, and we're all just peachy", yes, is pretty lazy.

By all means outline to me how and why it is a good idea independently, psychologically and scientifically and then there's a discussion on its merits. "It's just the way we do things!" is none of those things and says absolutely zero about the merits of the practice. :shrug:
Older generations and people from other cultures where it’s still a thing turn/ed out perfectly okay and have more respect for their elders. Not every opinion needs quantifying and statistical verification but I’d love to see you rebute that last point about respect for elders.

[Niamh.]

That’s half the world down as poor parents then.

You said it :thumbs:

Livia’s damn right either way.

Disagree.

[Redway]

It's offensive to disagree with using physical force against a child? I don't think it is no in the same way I disagree with alot of cultural treatments of women in middle eastern countries for example or FGM in some African cultures, is disagreeing with those practices in the name of culture offensive? And if so call my offensive by all means :shrug:

It’s more a deeply rooted part of child training in other parts of the world than lazy parenting. Whether you agree with it or not you can’t apply modern British standards to different world cultures.

[Niamh.]

Older generations and people from other cultures where it’s still a thing turn/ed out perfectly okay and have more respect for their elders. Not every opinion needs quantifying and statistical verification but I’d love to see you rebute that last point about respect for elders.

How can he rebute a point that is pretty much just your opinion?

[user104658]

Except the kid in question’s more a teenager than a small boy.

So you're argument is that they shouldn't be hit as a small child, and then START hitting them as a teenager? When a "little smack on the bum" would be undoubtedly ineffective and inappropriate, so what would be the method? A swift backhand to the face? Being pushed up against a wall? In what possible version of reality are either of those things preferable to a reasonable and respectful conversation?

[Redway]

And the other half of the world has more respect for elders than Britain does. That’s the funny thing considering their parents are crap according to British standards.

[Niamh.]

It’s more a deeply rooted part of child training in other parts of the world than lazy parenting. Whether you agree with it or not you can’t apply modern British standards to different world cultures.

Once again, I'm not British and I find it offensive that you keep referring to me as that, especially considering our history. Hitting your kids is illegal in Ireland, it's not in Britain.

[Redway]

Once again, I'm not British and I find it offensive that you keep referring to me as that, especially considering our history. Hitting your kids is illegal in Ireland, it's not in Britain.

You know what I’m saying. Calling parents from non-Western countries lazy and crap parents because you don’t agree with their mode of discipline is more offensive than anything I’ve said on this thread.

[Redway]

So you're argument is that they shouldn't be hit as a small child, and then START hitting them as a teenager? When a "little smack on the bum" would be undoubtedly ineffective and inappropriate, so what would be the method? A swift backhand to the face? Being pushed up against a wall? In what possible version of reality are either of those things preferable to a reasonable and respectful conversation?

“Reasonable and respectful conversation.”

LMAO. When it’s gotten to the point of some stupid kid standing up to a grown man like he can reasonable conversation takes a backseat.

[Niamh.]

You know what I’m saying. Calling parents from non-Western countries lazy and crap parents because you don’t agree with their mode of discipline is more offensive than anything I’ve said on this thread.

It really isn't. I'm not British, stop calling me that. Thanks.

[Redway]

Maybe it’s just my cultural perspective talking. That’s why these conversations are hard to have with people from purely Western cultures.

[user104658]

Older generations and people from other cultures where it’s still a thing turn/ed out perfectly okay and have more respect for their elders. Not every opinion needs quantifying and statistical verification but I’d love to see you rebute that last point about respect for elders.

Happy to. I believe that "respect for elders" is a bull**** concept and ones elders should only be respected if they are in turn being respectful. In fact, I'll go further than that. I think pushing the idea that one must unquestioningly "respect one's elders" is straight up dangerous and opens to door to covert abuse and exploitation. It's an idea that has been used time and again throughout history to intimidate and silence young people when they are being mistreated by a supposed superior. One does not become more worthy of respect with age. Respect should be the default from birth and equal for everyone until they do something to lose that respect.


And the other half of the world has more respect for elders than Britain does.

Are they? Do you have some stats on figures on this? Or is it observational?
Because fear and ingrained response =/= respect, and I would counter that what you are identifying as "respect" is little more than Pavlovian dog training, and completely unrelated to true, deserved, ideological respect.

[Redway]

Look at this guy trying to quantify traditions passed down from generation to generation.

“Respect for elders is a bull**** concept.”

That attitude’s the reason why the kid was bold enough to call the bus driver a prick in the first place.

[Niamh.]

Maybe it’s just my cultural perspective talking. That’s why these conversations are hard to have with people from purely Western cultures.

Just because something is part of a culture doesn't make it ok and un-challangable, there was plenty in my culture (IRISH) that was wrong but we're changing that as time goes by, I have no issues with someone who isn't Irish saying they think something Irish people do as a cultural thing is wrong :shrug:

[Niamh.]

Happy to. I believe that "respect for elders" is a bull**** concept and ones elders should only be respected if they are in turn being respectful. In fact, I'll go further than that. I think pushing the idea that one must unquestioningly "respect one's elders" is straight up dangerous and opens to door to covert abuse and exploitation. It's an idea that has been used time and again throughout history to intimidate and silence young people when they are being mistreated by a supposed superior. One does not become more worthy of respect with age. Respect should be the default from birth and equal for everyone until they do something to lose that respect.




Are they? Do you have some stats on figures on this? Or is it observational?
Because fear and ingrained response =/= respect, and I would counter that what you are identifying as "respect" is little more than Pavlovian dog training, and completely unrelated to true, deserved, ideological respect.

That's a great point actually. Here I'm going to speak about my own culture as an example of that in practice, with the Catholic Church and the unquestionable and un challangable respect that was given to priests in the past and look at what happened because of that, all the sexual and physical abuse that went on, mainly towards children and they were far too scared to speak up because of that power and respect they were given. My mother told me once that she heard a rumour that a priest in her area had fathered a child and she went home and said it and her dad said "don't you dare say something like that about a Priest!" you couldn't say a single bad word about them

[user104658]

Look at this guy trying to quantify traditions passed down from generation to generation.

“Respect for elders is a bull**** concept.”

That attitude’s the reason why the kid was bold enough to call the bus driver a prick in the first place.

Please explain why relative age merits increased respect. You haven't and don't seem willing to; I can only assume because you have no idea how to.

And no, it doesn't explain why this kid was disrespectful. I quite clearly said that the default should be respect. He should have been respectful towards the driver because he should be respectful towards everyone and likewise vice-versa. The reason he was disrespectful was not "because he hasn't been taught to unquestioningly respect his elders", and the reason for him having a generally bad attitude CERTAINLY isn't "because he didn't get hit enough".

You're battling a point from a purely subjective stance of what you believe to be true and what you have been raised to believe is true. You have absolutely NO objective evidence for any of it, other than what you believe to be true and what you want to be true, and a few unsubstantiated observations that have far too many variables to be conclusive of anything at all.

[Redway]

“Objective evidence. Unsubstantiated claims.”

You don’t sound any smarter by throwing around academic terms like that. Especially where emotionally toned topics go. I hope you know that.

You can quote my words literally and take them at face value or you can take the substance of what I’m saying. Either way it’s all subjective so long as she and cultural differences come into it. That’s why no one other than you’s linking up ‘conclusive studies’ to substantiate something that all comes down to personal interpretation.

[Niamh.]

You know what I’m saying. Calling parents from non-Western countries lazy and crap parents because you don’t agree with their mode of discipline is more offensive than anything I’ve said on this thread.

Oh and to add to this, I'm not only calling people from non western cultures lazy parents btw, plenty of parents in Western cultures still use corporal punishment too(just read this thread for a start) so you can stop trying to paint me as a racist or something. You're the one who brought culture into it not me, I disagree with it regardless of culture.

[Redway]

Oh and to add to this, I'm not only calling people from non western cultures lazy parents btw, plenty of parents in Western cultures still use corporal punishment too(just read this thread for a start) so you can stop trying to paint me as a racist or something. You're the one who brought culture into it not me, I disagree with it regardless of culture.

No one’s trying to paint you as a racist but culture and generation have the strongest bearing on how people interpret these things.

Bottom line is whether you’re in agreement with different practices or not corporal punishment to kids is so deeply rooted in some cultures it’s seen as an essential part of child training. Dismissing it as lazy just because it doesn’t resonate with you comes off as just a little bit offensive.

[user104658]

“Objective evidence. Unsubstantiated claims.”

You don’t sound any smarter by throwing around academic terms like that. Especially where emotionally toned topics go. I hope you know that.

You can quote my words literally and take them at face value or you can take the substance of what I’m saying. Either way it’s all subjective so long as she and cultural differences come into it. That’s why no one other than you’s linking up ‘conclusive studies’ to substantiate something that all comes down to personal interpretation.

No, you're conflating the objective question of whether or not violence against children results in better / more respectful adults (something that absolutely can be and has been examined through detailed study, and is not purely a matter of opinion) with a statement about cultural norms that by your own admission is fuelled by personal bias. You came into the thread specifically to do that, and you were up until that point the only person who had done that.

I'm not "throwing around terms to seem smarter", and you should be careful when assuming that just because a topic is emotionally toned for you due to your own personal circumstances, that it's that for everyone else involved in the discussion.

I have little to zero interest in the emotional or cultural attachment to using physical punishment against children. I'm interested in whether or not it's objectively damaging to psychological development and the creation of stable, respectful, non-violent adults.

To state that this kid is disrespectful towards adults because he wasn't physically punished enough is at absolute best complete guesswork - not least because we have no idea whether he was or wasn't. It's a guess based on another guess. To state that it's acceptable for an adult man to physically put his hands on anyone - let alone a minor, let alone one who is a stranger to him - is in my opinion morally dubious, and legally just plain false.

[Niamh.]

No one’s trying to paint you as a racist but culture and generation have the strongest bearing on how people interpret these things.

Bottom line is whether you’re in agreement with different practices or not corporal punishment to kids is so deeply rooted in some cultures it’s seen as an essential part of child training. Dismissing it as lazy just because it doesn’t resonate with you comes off as just a little bit offensive.

But only offensive to non western cultures? It was also a cultural thing in Western cultures too but that's starting to change because people realised its wrong to hit children.

You say it's a way of child training. It was also a way of training dogs in the past but dog trainers have updated their methods because they realised it was less effective and a bit cruel. Hitting puppies/dogs as a way of training them makes dogs fearful which in turn can make them dangerous/aggressive. It makes sense. It's logical.

I'm not going to ever sit here and say it's ok to hit a child because it offends you btw, not ever.

[Redway]

But to go on and call half the world’s parents bad parents all because you’re not in agreement with their mode of discipline kind of is offensive isn’t it.

[Niamh.]

But to go on and call half the world’s parents bad parents all because you’re not in agreement with their mode of discipline kind of is offensive isn’t it.

I never once said bad parents, I said lazy parenting in regards to disciplining their kids.

[Redway]

There’s always a difference between hitting a kid out of laziness and out of deeply rooted tradition.

[Niamh.]

There’s always a difference between hitting a kid out of laziness and out of deeply rooted tradition.

A tradition is putting up a Christmas tree not using physical force against a child without questioning it's merits, surely? I understand what you're saying, it's the way it's always been done however should we always just carry on doing what our parents have done and their parents before without ever looking at whether or not it's the right thing to do? If we did that society as a whole would look alot different to what it does now.

[Livia]

Are you accusing me of not having that opinion consistently? because I do....and I like Livia and LT so there goes that theory

Being friends and also being able to disagree is the grown up approach.

[Niamh.]

Being friends and also being able to disagree is the grown up approach.

Indeed, i like a good ol debate :p

[user104658]

But to go on and call half the world’s parents bad parents all because you’re not in agreement with their mode of discipline kind of is offensive isn’t it.

One questionable parenting practice doesn't make a "bad parent", there's plenty of parenting things I do that are far from ideal but the idea that there's any such thing as a perfect parent is nonsense :shrug:. Whether or not someone is a good or bad parent is mostly about balance, with the exception of outright abuse (as a parent who is amazing 95% of the time but outright severely abusive 5% of the time is never going to be good). No one is saying that all parents who use physical punishment are "bad parents", just questioning whether or not that one practice SPECIFICALLY is positive or negative on balance.

There’s always a difference between hitting a kid out of laziness and out of deeply rooted tradition.

You say this like it wasn't "tradition" or common-practice globally within recent history. It was very much "culturally normal" for children to be physically punished in the UK, as recently as a few decades ago? It's STILL relatively commonplace :think:. I think you maybe have a skewed perspective of it being a thing used in certain cultures that's based only on very, very recent history.

I also think there's some conflation between "hereditary habit" and "culture and tradition" here because I can't imagine many people unironically saying "Of course I hit my kids - it's tradition!"... more likely a much more generalised "Well sometimes it's necessary and my parents did it and it hasn't done me any harm" etc etc.

I would add there though my opinion that refusing to challenge and think through the merits of tradition (no matter which side someone then eventually comes down on) is indeed lazy, or perhaps just stubborn, but either way not ideal in terms of parenting. Parents should always and repeatedly be considering what's the best move and assessing what does and doesn't work. Again I feel like I need to double down on saying that this is my opinion.

[Tom4784]

I think when a parent resorts to violence to raise their kids then they have failed as parents.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think when a parent resorts to violence to raise their kids then they have failed as parents.

you may change your mind if you had 3 under 10 and 2 were having a tantrum and you were tired

[Cherie]

It's very interesting how some people think that unless a child is hit as a kid they won't be well behaved or respectful. I have two really well behaved/respectful teenagers and neither were hit as kids. It's not about hitting your kids, it's about disciplining them, hitting them as a method of discipline is lazy parenting. We don't tolerate adults hitting adults so why is an adult hitting a small child ok? I don't get the logic at all

No not at all, this guy did not not hit him, he pushed him off the bus for being rude and disrespectful, there is a huge difference between the two, the driver could have handled it a bit better but the message was clear, be polite or you are not getting on

[Cherie]

I think when a parent resorts to violence to raise their kids then they have failed as parents.

Don't be silly now, this is not a violent episode

[user104658]

you may change your mind if you had 3 under 10 and 2 were having a tantrum and you were tired

You sound very sure of that LT, I have two under 10 and my youngest is (mostly) non-verbal autistic and can be very, very destructive and can lash out herself, and I'm literally always tired, often operating on 4 hours sleep and never more than 6.5. I've never so much as tapped either of them (other than playfully, as they both like to wrestle and tbh the little'un plays bloody rough) and neither has my wife :shrug:. Again I'm not going to condemn every single person who has momentarily lost their cool, but you talk about it like it's an inevitability when it isn't.

[user104658]

No not at all, this guy did not not hit him, he pushed him off the bus for being rude and disrespectful, there is a huge difference between the two, the driver could have handled it a bit better but the message was clear, be polite or you are not getting on

I honestly think this is a totally different debate to the parenting one though and I don't get how people are defending it... it's literally illegal and not excusable to do this to someone else's kids and encouraging it is bloody stupid. For the pusher AND the person doing the pushing. Honestly, all it takes is that kid being "pushed off the bus" to fall and properly hurt himself and that guy's life is wrecked. Definitely job lost, very real possibility of criminal charges. Even if you don't AGREE that pushing people should be illegal, IT IS and pretending that it's OK to do it and someone taking that advice is going to land them in trouble.

[user104658]

Here's another thought to muddy the waters;

I don't imagine for a second that people would be coming down so heavily in the driver's favour if this was a girl mouthing off, and he called her "fat bitch", threatened to "punch her face in" and physically shoved her off the bus.

Give that some thought, and think about why that wouldn't be OK. Now think about why it's apparently OK to do it to a teenage boy.

[Tom4784]

you may change your mind if you had 3 under 10 and 2 were having a tantrum and you were tired

Or maybe you should not make the mistake of thinking that your patience and experiences are a baseline to hold everyone to. There are plenty of parents in worse situations that don't resort to hitting their kids. Instead of making out that everyone hits theirr kids, you should probably consider why you are endorsing it so much.

[Niamh.]

No not at all, this guy did not not hit him, he pushed him off the bus for being rude and disrespectful, there is a huge difference between the two, the driver could have handled it a bit better but the message was clear, be polite or you are not getting on

The post of mine you quoted was talking about the comment that was made about "If the boy had been hit by his own parents then he wouldn't have behaved that way", so you're replying to a point I didn't make there

[Niamh.]

Here's another thought to muddy the waters;

I don't imagine for a second that people would be coming down so heavily in the driver's favour if this was a girl mouthing off, and he called her "fat bitch", threatened to "punch her face in" and physically shoved her off the bus.

Give that some thought, and think about why that wouldn't be OK. Now think about why it's apparently OK to do it to a teenage boy.

I think you're crazy if you think that some people wouldn't still think it was justified tbh, remember that thread about the teenage girl who the police officer threw to the ground? :worry:

[user104658]

I think you're crazy if you think that some people wouldn't still think it was justified tbh, remember that thread about the teenage girl who the police officer threw to the ground? :worry:

Oh I'm sure some people would, but I do think it would be fewer, with there being an idea that a "real man" wouldn't let a young boy talk to them a certain way and not respond aggressively.

[Niamh.]

Oh I'm sure some people would, but I do think it would be fewer, with there being an idea that a "real man" wouldn't let a young boy talk to them a certain way and not respond aggressively.

Yeah, I think the Bus Driver would have less support certainly but I still think he'd have support by a fair amount of people if it was "a chavvy girl" type thing. Either way I'm of the same opinion regardless of sex

[Redway]

Here's another thought to muddy the waters;

I don't imagine for a second that people would be coming down so heavily in the driver's favour if this was a girl mouthing off, and he called her "fat bitch", threatened to "punch her face in" and physically shoved her off the bus.

Give that some thought, and think about why that wouldn't be OK. Now think about why it's apparently OK to do it to a teenage boy.

It’s pretty obvious why it’s not okay to do the same to a girl.

[Niamh.]

It’s pretty obvious why it’s not okay to do the same to a girl.

Oh I'm interested to know what the answer to that is?

[Redway]

Oh I'm interested to know what the answer to that is?

You already know the answer why. I don’t need to spell it out.

[Niamh.]

You already know the answer why. I don’t need to spell it out.

Is it because people who are bigger and physically stronger shouldn't use their bigger and stronger physicality on someone smaller and weaker? :think:

[Redway]

You can do this all you like but you know why it’s much different for a girl than a boy.

[Niamh.]

You can do this all you like but you know why it’s much different for a girl than a boy.

Yes I do, the answer I just gave, men are physically stronger (generally speaking) in a similar way to adults being physically stronger than children. Is that not the answer you're thinking of? Why not tell me what you're thinking if its a different answer because that was what I was thinking?

[Redway]

Because it’s never okay for a stranger to lay his hand on a girl full stop. There’s nothing more to say for that one, it’s just an obvious no-no.

This boy can get treated like a man if he steps up to one in the way he did.

[Niamh.]

Because it’s never okay for a stranger to lay his hand on a girl full stop. There’s nothing more to say for that one, it’s just an obvious no-no.

This boy can get treated like a man if he steps up to one in the way he did.

You're still not saying why it's never ok to lay hands on a girl and it is to lay hands on a boy.....I think it's pretty obvious why too but you don't want to actually say those words because it makes your defense of hitting children weaker, am I right or am I right?

[Beso]

If its not OK to raise hands to a girl, why is it OK to chop of their clitirosis?

[Redway]

If its not OK to raise hands to a girl, why is it OK to chop of their clitirosis?

Who here’s condoning practices like that?

[Redway]

You're still not saying why it's never ok to lay hands on a girl and it is to lay hands on a boy.....I think it's pretty obvious why too but you don't want to actually say those words because it makes your defense of hitting children weaker, am I right or am I right?

A stranger touching a female for any reason is wrong for all shades of reasons and open to misinterpretation.

[Beso]

Who here’s condoning practices like that?

Nobody, but it ties in with your cultural differences in raising kids, I know black parents practice both beating kids as punishment and chopping if clitorisis just for the hellnof it... White parents don't seem to practice both. So I'm just wondering why you think the way kids are raised violently is good for them?

[Redway]

Nobody, but it ties in with your cultural differences in raising kids, I know black parents practice both beating kids as punishment and chopping if clitorisis just for the hellnof it... White parents don't seem to practice both. So I'm just wondering why you think the way kids are raised violently is good for them?

And I just wonder why you aren’t taking this up with the other people on the thread who support the bus driver and not the kid.

[Beso]

And I just wonder why you aren’t taking this up with the other people on the thread who support the bus driver and not the kid.

I didn't quote you pal, you took it up all on your own.

[Redway]

Okay.

[internetkid]

I'm shocked at some of the comments on the site of the article. I'm sure it was edited and I am sure that the teenager was being arrogant and an idiot but how is it ever acceptable for a grown man who should be acting as role model to use violence against someone (especially a child). Whether the teenager deserved it or not is irrelevant tbh. I'm not sure if he threatened the teen at the start of the video but also calling him "Fat boy" is pathetic.

[internetkid]

It’s pretty obvious why it’s not okay to do the same to a girl.

How is it any different? It is wrong to assault ANYONE regardless of their sex!!

[Niamh.]

A stranger touching a female for any reason is wrong for all shades of reasons and open to misinterpretation.Well in this particular example it would for giving cheek to a bus driver, so presumably it's because the man is physically bigger and stronger but he's also physically bigger and stronger than the boy

[internetkid]

Happy to. I believe that "respect for elders" is a bull**** concept and ones elders should only be respected if they are in turn being respectful. In fact, I'll go further than that. I think pushing the idea that one must unquestioningly "respect one's elders" is straight up dangerous and opens to door to covert abuse and exploitation. It's an idea that has been used time and again throughout history to intimidate and silence young people when they are being mistreated by a supposed superior. One does not become more worthy of respect with age. Respect should be the default from birth and equal for everyone until they do something to lose that respect.



THANK YOU! You couldn't have put it better.

[Niamh.]

Nobody, but it ties in with your cultural differences in raising kids, I know black parents practice both beating kids as punishment and chopping if clitorisis just for the hellnof it... White parents don't seem to practice both. So I'm just wondering why you think the way kids are raised violently is good for them?I don't think it's fair to say Black people think it's ok to do that, I'm sure there are many many black people who don't think it's ok. But it surely is a cultural practise which is why I was saying earlier it should be ok to challenge cultural practises that are cruel and unnecessary. Equally a lot of white people also think it's ok to use hitting as a discipline, it's not a black/white thing

[Maru]

The thing is if family does it, we know where they are coming from. With a stranger, it's going to be more dependent on cultural consensus. Well society is leaning a fair distance towards "empathy", which tends to be only a tinge stronger than apathy, but not a whole lot of love. My family and even our neighbors would not have me grow up in public not knowing any better, so it was sorted then. If corporal helps, they used it. That's love. It is probably better he learned a lesson @ 15 not to dick with authority, but instead society teaches kids now if they play the system a certain way, then they are the authority... btw this is exactly what most of our inmates here have fully ingrained almost regurgitatingly. So there is a bit more to that then particular parenting strategies, which I'll get into...

Also I don't think it is simply down to what method is best to parent (spoiler: There is no one-size-fits-all). It used to be the village had more of a hand in the raising of a kid as well. We don't have that element instilled in Western culture anymore. Unless we are lucky to live inside a like-minded community. The immediate family no longer extends beyond our property. Not when Americans sue for evert mishap or ppl call the police for every greivance. Which btw is how we end up with police brutality and a police state. When we give them the jurisdiction to do whatever is necessary to clean up the community, give it time... They are meant to provide security in emergencies, but increasingly they are being used as society's whipping cord. They're happy with that policy as long as they themselves don't suffer any discomfort or pained deference.

[Beso]

Okay.

I will outright ask you why, after being hit as punishment as a kid. You would then go on to hit your own kid if you ever likely to have one!

Its like racists in a way, being allowed to get away with racism cause their parents were.

I'm wondering which scenario effects the victim the most.

[Beso]

I don't think it's fair to say Black people think it's ok to do that, I'm sure there are many many black people who don't think it's ok. But it surely is a cultural practise which is why I was saying earlier it should be ok to challenge cultural practises that are cruel and unnecessary. Equally a lot of white people also think it's ok to use hitting as a discipline, it's not a black/white thing



After looking at the demographic of countries practicing female circumcision, and the numbers who have suffered from it. I think it would be unfair to say anything other than black people are ok with it.

[user104658]

After looking at the demographic of countries practicing female circumcision, and the numbers who have suffered from it. I think it would be unfair to say anything other than black people are ok with it.I think that would be a huge generalisation there parm, there are only very small pockets of "civilisation" that support FGM.

[Maru]

I will outright ask you why, after being hit as punishment as a kid. You would then go on to hit your own kid if you ever likely to have one!

Its like racists in a way, being allowed to get away with racism cause their parents were.

I'm wondering which scenario effects the victim the most.

Should we be OK with a stranger doing so? A stranger or several strangers might, depending on the context and the situation. I never understood having a problem with corporal but then allowing other individuals the stance to assault other individuals on the basis of character assessments alone, at any age. We can't have it both ways. Violence is violence.

My point is not meant to detract from your point, parm. You ask a very pertinent question and I think that's a question many new parents ask themselves. These practices were in our culture because there didn't used to be this sort of nanny culture. Well, we went through a period of nanny culture that was quite bad actually, where neighbor's would turn their head despite the neighborhood problem child getting his *** beat by his father down the street for practically no reason. So yes, unchecked authority is bad. On the other hand, now, police are called, HOAs (Home Owner's Associations) record violations for the littest of things like leaving toddler toys out in the grass (God forbid kids be kids), and now society is nudging govt to that level as well...

...but why do you think the practice was introduced? I think people tend to think it is specifically for the purpose of facilitating authority, but I think my biggest take-away from having been spanked as a child was that the world does not revolve around me and my every thought.

The bus driver tried to handle it "the old fashioned" way... in my old neighborhood, this was "the line" and we thought twice about crossing it. Calling the police was something that the local public nuisance/nanny state did.

Consider that line a thinking a little bit. It was thought a lesser person not only wants, but demands, third parties to come in and resolve their differences. Before the era of internet and cell phones, the third party was about as far away as it took you to run home (if you could get away) to call for help on your landline or to a family member. So differences had to be resolved often without third party input. The worst alternative is that we are found in an alleyway with the wrong person (who we misspoke to)... or... that kid is found later hanging out with the wrong crowd bullying/targetting overs... humans by nature have little bullies instilled in them, and while spanking is certainly not a benign action, it helped facilitate a lesson in the concept of personal power and there being forces beyond our limitations.... that also taught that life itself was also not benign, in fact, there were often difficult aspects and malignant aspects of human-nature that do not consider our well-being or have our best interest... a child today has more options at their disposal (call fam for help or record any wrong-doing for evidence later), but a child of those days didn't have a family or protective structure following them everywhere they went...

Now that things have changed with technology and nanny-style "community policing", those lessons are a little bit more complicated than they used to be. Yes, we shouldn't subject ourselves to a problematic situation or purposefully push someone's buttons who may do harm to us... but on the other hand, if that person is able to get it on camera, they may have a juicy lawsuit on their hands. Even better if those recorded are well-known in any way shape or form, then they can sell that footage/imagery to TMZ/CNN and reap interview $$$$$. Very complicated now :laugh: There are incentives to cause trouble where before that really could have damaged our reputation with our local folk and may have still resulted in immediate arrest anyway. Sometimes fines... something our prior generations maybe could not have afforded.

[Maru]

I think that would be a huge generalisation there parm, there are only very small pockets of "civilisation" that support FGM.

I'd never even heard of it until I first came to SD.

[Niamh.]

I'd never even heard of it until I first came to SD.You never heard of FGM until you came on TIBB? Really?

[Marsh.]

"Ooh, kids would be so much better behaved these days with a little domestic violence"

Ok. :umm2:

[Maru]

You never heard of FGM until you came on TIBB? Really?

Nope. It's not a topic of conversation here and definitely not in the news. Maybe now I hear about it now that I listen more to partisan media, but even then it's still very rare to hear about it...

[Marsh.]

After looking at the demographic of countries practicing female circumcision, and the numbers who have suffered from it. I think it would be unfair to say anything other than black people are ok with it.

Why? Because "black people" all hail from and represent the same countries?

It's as ridiculous a comment as "white people believe...".

[Niamh.]

Nope. It's not a topic of conversation here and definitely not in the news. Maybe now I hear about it now that I listen more to partisan media, but even then it's still very rare to hear about it...It's a something that's topical as a human rights issue/women's rights issue. Not so much in the news but it's certainly something people know about, I'm surprised it's not something Americans know about

[Maru]

It's a something that's topical as a human rights issue/women's rights issue. Not so much in the news but it's certainly something people know about, I'm surprised it's not something Americans know about

Ironically, I think it's because our media is so left-leaning. It's too close to America's soft spots (Islamophobia, ethnocentrism, nativism, etc). We don't tend to discuss such cultural topics beyond the broader consensus.

That's part of what attracted me to SD topics, actually, is that conversations here are not so filtered. Americans can be so sheltered here because most media for as long as I've been alive anyway has been delivered through such a thick filter.

Besides, it has the word "genital" in it and I couldn't see Anderson Cooper & co using those words so carelessly :smug: With the topic of gender identity though, etc, we see more usage of those kinds of terms, but it's understandable in a medical context. I don't think genital mutilation is something people want to hear when they turn on the television during prime-time. Right-wing media is more likely to bring it up given the human-rights related abuses, but then they will almost immediately be squashed by the opposition as racism/ethnocentrism... since obviously to delve into such topics, we'd have to then climb into discussions of WHO practices it... and that's deeper than most media wants to go now-a-days. We already know too the more vulgar folk who will usurp that conversation. The Ann Coulters of political discourse, etc... and that's enough to bleach it from the national/mainstream rhetoric here... US media in general is still very uptight and censorship heavy imo...

[Beso]

I think that would be a huge generalisation there parm, there are only very small pockets of "civilisation" that support FGM.

An estimated 200 million women and girls alive today have had it, and there will be another 3 million each year who have to suffer from it, im assuming they will all be black girls.


I think that proves that black people support it.

[Niamh.]

Ironically, I think it's because our media is so left-leaning. It's too close to America's soft spots (Islamophobia, ethnocentrism, nativism, etc). We don't tend to discuss such cultural topics beyond the broader consensus.

That's part of what attracted me to SD topics, actually, is that conversations here are not so filtered. Americans can be so sheltered here because most media for as long as I've been alive anyway has been delivered through such a thick filter.

Besides, it has the word "genital" in it and I couldn't see Anderson Cooper & co using those words so carelessly :smug: With the topic of gender identity though, etc, we see more usage of those kinds of terms, but it's understandable in a medical context. I don't think genital mutilation is something people want to hear when they turn on the television during prime-time. Right-wing media is more likely to bring it up given the human-rights related abuses, but then they will almost immediately be squashed by the opposition as racism/ethnocentrism... since obviously to delve into such topics, we'd have to then climb into discussions of WHO practices it... and that's deeper than most media wants to go now-a-days. We already know too the more vulgar folk who will usurp that conversation. The Ann Coulters of political discourse, etc... and that's enough to bleach it from the national/mainstream rhetoric here... US media in general is still very uptight and censorship heavy imo...Interesting Maru, it is a shame though that the left leaning side would protect culture over women or more specifically little girls. I have a cousin actually who works for an organisation in Brussels who are actively working to stop FGM.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Interesting Maru, it is a shame though that the left leaning side would protect culture over women or more specifically little girls. I have a cousin actually who works for an organisation in Brussels who are actively working to stop FGM.

i wish they would stop MGM too and one of the worst culprits apart from Jews is USA

[Niamh.]

i wish they would stop MGM too and one of the worst culprits apart from Jews is USAYeah, I agree although it's not as damaging as FGM. Tbf though in the USA it seems to be a standard practice for all baby boys not just Jewish boys

[Livia]

i wish they would stop MGM too and one of the worst culprits apart from Jews is USA

Yes, because that's exactly the same thing as cutting off a girls clitoris with no anaesthetic, by an unqualified person and with unsterilized blades while family members hold her down, and then sewing her up so she can just pee and menstruate. Never mind what happens when her husband wants sex, or when she has a child... And there are Millions - MILLIONS - of women who have suffered this, some right here in the UK.

Yes, male circumcision must be JUST the same... or it wouldn't get brought up, by a man, ever time FGM gets brought up.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Yes, because that's exactly the same thing as cutting off a girls clitoris with no anaesthetic, by an unqualified person and with unsterilized blades while family members hold her down, and then sewing her up so she can just pee and menstruate. Never mind what happens when her husband wants sex, or when she has a child... And there are Millions - MILLIONS - of women who have suffered this, some right here in the UK.

Yes, male circumcision must be JUST the same... or it wouldn't get brought up, by a man, ever time FGM gets brought up.

Snipping off a part off a babys knob for NO good reason is Snipping off a part off a babys knob for NO good reason

[Livia]

Snipping off a part off a babys knob for NO good reason is Snipping off a part off a babys knob for NO good reason

Please don't try to make the issues sound the same when women suffer so much more otherwise you're just minimising their struggle and taking part in insufferable whataboutism. I know you don't agree with male circumcision, you say so all the time. That's your right, start a campaign if you feel so strongly, just please don't slip it into the discussion every time FGM comes up.

[Redway]

How is it any different? It is wrong to assault ANYONE regardless of their sex!!

“How is it any different?”

Really? Don’t be stupid.

[thesheriff443]

We are a long way off the original thread.

[arista]

We are a long way off the original thread.


Yes miles off topic.

[Beso]

Yes, because that's exactly the same thing as cutting off a girls clitoris with no anaesthetic, by an unqualified person and with unsterilized blades while family members hold her down, and then sewing her up so she can just pee and menstruate. Never mind what happens when her husband wants sex, or when she has a child... And there are Millions - MILLIONS - of women who have suffered this, some right here in the UK.

Yes, male circumcision must be JUST the same... or it wouldn't get brought up, by a man, ever time FGM gets brought up.

All some off them have to look forward to is the rubbing of leaves into the vagina so it stays dry because the bloke likes the look of a clean dry vagina or prefers the difficult entry....



True facts.

[Maru]

We are a long way off the original thread.

Idc, this is good discussion. But mods could always split into a new thread.

[Maru]

Yes, because that's exactly the same thing as cutting off a girls clitoris with no anaesthetic, by an unqualified person and with unsterilized blades while family members hold her down, and then sewing her up so she can just pee and menstruate. Never mind what happens when her husband wants sex, or when she has a child... And there are Millions - MILLIONS - of women who have suffered this, some right here in the UK.

Yes, male circumcision must be JUST the same... or it wouldn't get brought up, by a man, ever time FGM gets brought up.

Wow. I have scarring of the bladder and it's nigh impossible to stop the pain once it is set off without invention. Pelvic pain in general is no walk in the park. It tend to becomes recurrent if left untreated and with there are so many nerve-endings there, it's more difficult to treat than pain in other areas. So probably people think "take a pain pill". It's really not that simple. There are so many sensitive areas there, involuntary reflexes, etc. For example, the bladder filling and pressing up against damaged nerves could lead to bladder spasms, which are also involuntary. The pain can spread to other areas. Then adding in the stress element. Like any muscle, tension links pretty closely with how we feel, our mental state. High stress means more tension, which leads to tightening. Tightening up means more pain, especially in areas with scar-tissue, which the procedure sounds like it would lead to a lot of scar-tissue. There's also people who have physiological reactions to sexual trauma/shaming as well, for example, conditions such as vaginismus (https://www.webmd.com/women/guide/vaginismus-causes-symptoms-treatments). That could complicate treatment as well. That has to be a complete hell. That's probably the intent.

I would not compare that to a circumsion. Religious folk want to reproduce. Can't do that when your junk feels like it is on fire all the time.

To bring this back OT. Another form of arraignment against the kid in the OP maybe?... "Well somebody wasn't circumsized when they were younger" ...

[user104658]

To bring this back OT. Another form of arraignment against the kid in the OP maybe?... "Well somebody wasn't circumsized when they were younger" ...

Well, it's a good example of how people can come to completely false correlations!

The rate of infant circumcision in the US has been falling over time. The rate of mass shootings has been increasing over time. So it stands to reason that if EVERYONE was circumcised, there would be no mass shootings at all! Damn you, foreskin. Damn ALL the foreskins! :fist:

[Beso]

Well, it's a good example of how people can come to completely false correlations!

The rate of infant circumcision in the US has been falling over time. The rate of mass shootings has been increasing over time. So it stands to reason that if EVERYONE was circumcised, there would be no mass shootings at all! Damn you, foreskin. Damn ALL the foreskins! :fist:

I'm now wondering if trumps been man made from all those bitter chopped of foreskins.

[Maru]

Well, it's a good example of how people can come to completely false correlations!

The rate of infant circumcision in the US has been falling over time. The rate of mass shootings has been increasing over time. So it stands to reason that if EVERYONE was circumcised, there would be no mass shootings at all! Damn you, foreskin. Damn ALL the foreskins! :fist:

I'm going to start throwing around some baseless accusations during the next game day. It sounds like a potential solid plot material for a table top RPG anyway. I will suggest it to our GM. ("You should bring in a priesthood obsessed with circumcizing the nation... and include a Leather Trumpet somehow")

Maybe that is the secret to his name...

[user104658]

I'm going to start throwing around some baseless accusations during the next game day. It sounds like a potential solid plot material for a table top RPG anyway. I will suggest it to our GM. ("You should bring in a priesthood obsessed with circumcizing the nation... and include a Leather Trumpet somehow")

Maybe that is the secret to his name...Apparently he actually does own a trumpet fashioned entirely out of discarded foreskin. He plays a sad tune in a minor key every night from the top of a hill, in respect for the loss experienced by all cut men.