Can god "fix" your gayness?

[Beso]

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-11-12/an-itv-news-undercover-investigation-exposes-the-uk-church-that-claims-you-dont-have-to-be-gay/

[Crimson Dynamo]

"Prayer is, for many people, a powerful and spiritual experience.

Belief in God helps many religious people in their lives in numerous ways. I grew up in the church and understand how faith can be a strength and a comfort."

says the reporter

utter bollocks mate, where is your evidence, you are as bad as the criminal "pastor"

:bored:

[Oliver_W]

It would be nice for some if there was a cure for gayness, but I think the only way it'd be possible would be divine intervention...

[Niamh.]

It would be nice for some if there was a cure for gayness, but I think the only way it'd be possible would be divine intervention...

It's not a disease

[Withano]

I’m not gonna read the article but no

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's not a disease

no but having only 3% of the population only available as a potential partner is limiting and society is almost 100% organised for hetro's so it must be a right pain in the you know what?

[user104658]

Well... organised religion at its core is about (and relies on) living in denial, so I suppose, if you can get someone to the point where they can convince themselves that organised religion is truth, then it's going to be pretty simple for that person to also delude themselves about their sexuality.

I'm carefully using the term "organised religion" here as really that's what we're talking about. Very little to do with the philosophical concept of God.

But yes, for anyone who believes in the validity of organised religion at all, you sort of have to believe that they can indeed "reverse" homosexuality, at least to the same extent of belief as the person would have in the religion itself.

:think:


Though in a purely objective sense, of course, the person is still gay and the religion still "false"... unless we start delving into the depths of ontology and metaphysics where you could argue that the delusion becomes the reality, at least for as long as it is a genuinely held belief.

[user104658]

society is almost 100% organised for hetro's

:think: It's not like being in a wheelchair LT, what does this even mean? If anything (and this is probably a huge generalisation) other than the obvious issues with homophobia still being "a thing", in practical terms, society seems VERY well set up for the gay couples I'm friends with. Dual income, no kids, no one is going to have to take maternity leave and stall their career, permanent upwards trajectory... also frankly easier communication / more likely to have aligned interests than your classic "male/female" dynamic. Basically to me it seems like there's a lot of the appeal of "the single lifestyle" for them, but with the benefit of also having love and companionship. The only major difference I can see is in having kids / a family set up, which yes I appreciate many gay couples want and is hard, however it's only a problem for the couples who DO want children (not all do) and also, let's be blunt here, society is NOT set up for families at all these days. It's set up for ambitious singles and power couples :shrug:. Kids (and families with kids) are treated like an inconvenience pretty much everywhere you go.

[smudgie]

Nothing to fix.....it isn’t broke.:shrug:

[Twosugars]

no but having only 3% of the population only available as a potential partner is limiting and society is almost 100% organised for hetro's so it must be a right pain in the you know what?
I'd say more like 5% and if you add bisexuals 10%
and ta for the concern, but gays never had a problem in finding one another
we have gaydar remember :smug: :p

[Twosugars]

Well... organised religion at its core is about (and relies on) living in denial, so I suppose, if you can get someone to the point where they can convince themselves that organised religion is truth, then it's going to be pretty simple for that person to also delude themselves about their sexuality.

I'm carefully using the term "organised religion" here as really that's what we're talking about. Very little to do with the philosophical concept of God.

But yes, for anyone who believes in the validity of organised religion at all, you sort of have to believe that they can indeed "reverse" homosexuality, at least to the same extent of belief as the person would have in the religion itself.

:think:


Though in a purely objective sense, of course, the person is still gay and the religion still "false"... unless we start delving into the depths of ontology and metaphysics where you could argue that the delusion becomes the reality, at least for as long as it is a genuinely held belief.

I'd delve into any depths with you :flutter:

[Matthew.]

deleted my original post because idk if i worded it correctly

i thought that “conversion” practice was illegal? it’s scary that it’s still a thing tbh

[Firewire]

She can try then maybe I'd have a successful love life!

[user104658]

I'd delve into any depths with you :flutter:

Not once Christ has finished with you, you won't :nono:

[Twosugars]

Not once Christ has finished with you, you won't :nono:
I still would :devil:

[Beso]

I doubt he can, but I would like to think he could.

[arista]

Nothing to fix.....it isn’t broke.:shrug:


Yes
its on a con.

[Niamh.]

I doubt he can, but I would like to think he could.

Why? Are you gay and don't want to be or something?

[Oliver_W]

It's not a disease

It's practically fatal in islamic countries.

[Firewire]

It's practically fatal in islamic countries.

Not just Islamic countries.

[Niamh.]

It's practically fatal in islamic countries.

mmm true enough

[Crimson Dynamo]

I am sure between them Kylie and Cher have converted many many men to homosexuality so who is doing a documentary about them and their evil converting ways?

:suspect:

[Livia]

My friend is a very happy gay man, married, settled... but he told me that, if he had been given a choice, he would have chosen to be heterosexual simply to live a life where he could marry and have a family with the person he loved. That's not to say he would try to "fix" his gayness because that's just ridiculous.

[Smithy]

society is almost 100% organised for hetro's

I wonder who made it like that :think:

[Livia]

And one more thing... if you think God can fix your sexuality, it's like admitting that God makes mistakes. No one is a mistake.

[Beso]

Why? Are you gay and don't want to be or something?

No, none of those.

It would prove that god exists and that would be of much relief to me.

[Niamh.]

No, none of those.

It would prove that god exists and that would be of much relief to me.

I get why that would be the case for some people but the way I look at it when we die we're at peace so it's not a scary thought but I know seeing people again who left us would still be great

[Crimson Dynamo]

we were all dead before we were born and that was for quite some time and we managed to cope

[Niamh.]

we were all dead before we were born and that was for quite some time and we managed to cope

Yeah, that's the best way I can try to get my head around it, it's too hard to imagine nothing in any other way :laugh:

[Beso]

we were all dead before we were born and that was for quite some time and we managed to cope

Digs were free though, you only had the fear of eviction to worry about.

[Oliver_W]

No one is a mistake.
The coat hanger indentation in my brother's head begs to differ x

[Jarrod]

It would be nice for some if there was a cure for gayness, but I think the only way it'd be possible would be divine intervention...

Erm..

[Oliver_W]

Erm..

?

I bet people being executed for being gay wish there was a cure (well, a different one!), and plenty of gays in the West wish they could be straight because their families don't accept them, or they want a family.

[Twosugars]

it'd be better if a God could cure all the religious and rightwingers of obsessing about homosexuals :rolleyes:
their faux concern is... concering

[hijaxers]

Yes
its on a con.

Right its total claptrap.

[Elliot]

it'd be better if a God could cure all the religious and rightwingers of obsessing about homosexuals :rolleyes:
their faux concern is... concering

Tea

[Elliot]

Fun how people urge the innocent to change to cater to a volatile homophobic society and not the other way around

[Elliot]

?

I bet people being executed for being gay wish there was a cure (well, a different one!), and plenty of gays in the West wish they could be straight because their families don't accept them, or they want a family.

So why should they change and not the nasty people making their lives hell?

[Twosugars]

Fun how people urge the innocent to change to cater to a volatile homophobic society and not the other way around

:clap1:

[Beso]

it'd be better if a God could cure all the religious and rightwingers of obsessing about homosexuals :rolleyes:
their faux concern is... concering

Are you referring to society or the forum twosugs?

[Oliver_W]

So why should they change and not the nasty people making their lives hell?

If we're talking about things which at least have a remote theoretical possibility, I'd bet more on a treatment which can change one's sexuality than somehow removing bigotry from multiple people.

[Twosugars]

Are you referring to society or the forum twosugs?

you tell me, parm :shrug:

how many gay threads you created?

[GoldHeart]

it'd be better if a God could cure all the religious and rightwingers of obsessing about homosexuals :rolleyes:
their faux concern is... concering

I cringed at that news story on itv :facepalm: , once again another way to make Christianity look nutty ! . TS Religion itself is NOT a problem it's the disturbed people who claim to be apart of religion that's the issue :nono:.

At least it's not shock therapy as that would be ILLEGAL ,but it's still pretty embarrassing as it looked like he was performing an exorcist .

[Twosugars]

I cringed at that news story on itv :facepalm: , once again another way to make Christianity look nutty ! . TS Religion itself is NOT a problem it's the disturbed people who claim to be apart of religion that's the issue :nono:.

At least it's not shock therapy as that would be ILLEGAL ,but it's still pretty embarrassing as it looked like he was performing an exorcist .

the bible says

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.
so idk

[reece(:]

Why is this still a debate in 2018? :skull:

https://i.imgur.com/EHgdcYu.gif

[Beso]

you tell me, parm :shrug:

how many gay threads you created?

Each one always fighting for your rights ya cheeky ****e.


But even though I'm hyper intelligent I, as yet. Can not mind read.

[Braden]

I don't think so, honey. I'm beyond repair.

[Oliver_W]

the bible says

so idk

Context (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-nicholas-phillips/the-bible-does-not-condemn-homosexuality_b_7807342.html):
The “Levitical laws” are important, foundational commandments for a people looking to survive. For a people on the move. For a people [] literally on the run  —  an exodus  —  out of Egypt.

[Twosugars]

Context (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/adam-nicholas-phillips/the-bible-does-not-condemn-homosexuality_b_7807342.html):

ok, so centuries of religion-based oppression never happened
must have been a bad dream or summtin' :shrug:

[Redway]

And the Bible says it again in the New Testament.

[Twosugars]

Each one always fighting for your rights ya cheeky ****e.


But even though I'm hyper intelligent I, as yet. Can not mind read.

:kiss: and a cheeky bum squeeze for you then ;)

[GoldHeart]

the bible says

so idk

That's because God created Adam & Eve , plus it's all about interpretation as some would say it's more to do with adultery , we're all sinners one way or another nobody is perfect :shrug: . Some people take everything so literal but there's more to it than that as we're meant to be loving to each other .

[montblanc]

obviously not

being gay isn’t something that needs to be “fixed”

[Redway]

The Bible makes itself pretty clear what it thinks about homosexuality in both the Old and New Testament.

[GoldHeart]

The Bible makes itself pretty clear what it thinks about homosexuality in both the Old and New Testament.

There's alot of things that's frowned upon , like I said it's about interpretation . Some people take everything in the Bible literal , whereas others are more open minded especially in this day & age .

[Marsh.]

"Prayer is, for many people, a powerful and spiritual experience.

Belief in God helps many religious people in their lives in numerous ways. I grew up in the church and understand how faith can be a strength and a comfort."

says the reporter

utter bollocks mate, where is your evidence, you are as bad as the criminal "pastor"

:bored:

Where is his evidence of what? That faith can be a strength and a comfort to people?

[Redway]

1 Corinthians 6:9 (ESV)

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Bible makes itself pretty clear to me. I don’t side with the Bible one bit in general but I don’t see much room for ambiguity there.

[GoldHeart]

1 Corinthians 6:9 (ESV)

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,

Bible makes itself pretty clear to me. I don’t side with the Bible one bit in general but I don’t see much room for ambiguity there.

Are you going to quote the Quran next ?

[Tom4784]

Sexuality isn't a disease and these cockrots are just charlatans peddling in delusions and dangerous psychological abuse.

Sexuality is not a fluid thing. Straight, Gay, Bisexual or Asexual, everyone is one of these things and it simply comes down to whether or not you are aware of which label truly fits you. It can't be changed, you can only delude yourself into thinking you've changed what is a chemical reaction within you.

Happiness comes from acceptance, not delusion.

[Tom4784]

When it comes to Christianity at least, I don't tolerate homophobes using the bible as an excuse for their hatred as pretty much every christian picks and chooses what parts of the bible best suits them as the bible is widly contradictory. If you think being stoned for wearing more than two different kinds of fabrics is silly but believe that hating someone on the grounds of sexuality is acceptable then I won't accept the excuse of religion for your bigotry.

[GoldHeart]

Sexuality isn't a disease and these cockrots are just charlatans peddling in delusions and dangerous psychological abuse.

Sexuality is not a fluid thing. Straight, Gay, Bisexual or Asexual, everyone is one of these things and it simply comes down to whether or not you are aware of which label truly fits you. It can't be changed, you can only delude yourself into thinking you've changed what is a chemical reaction within you.

Happiness comes from acceptance, not delusion.

Even today there's still people that don't understand Asexuality , but they probably still find people attractive but they don't feel the need to enter a relationship .

[GoldHeart]

When it comes to Christianity at least, I don't tolerate homophobes using the bible as an excuse for their hatred as pretty much every christian picks and chooses what parts of the bible best suits them as the bible is widly contradictory. If you think being stoned for wearing more than two different kinds of fabrics is silly but believe that hating someone on the grounds of sexuality is acceptable then I won't accept the excuse of religion for your bigotry.

Obviously there's hypocrisy in all kinds of people . But think about countries where they push people off buildings and actually persecute people for it . Those same places treat women like they're not human .

[Redway]

When it comes to Christianity at least, I don't tolerate homophobes using the bible as an excuse for their hatred as pretty much every christian picks and chooses what parts of the bible best suits them as the bible is widly contradictory. If you think being stoned for wearing more than two different kinds of fabrics is silly but believe that hating someone on the grounds of sexuality is acceptable then I won't accept the excuse of religion for your bigotry.

I’m no homophobe, what I’m against is people using the Bible to defend homosexuality. Not that it needs defending but most orthodox religions are pretty clear and unambiguous about what they think of homosexuality. That’s it. I wasn’t speaking for myself or my views on it.

[Redway]

Are you going to quote the Quran next ?

Stop trying to evade the point.

Why would gay people seek validation from a corrupt book like the Bible in the first place?

[GoldHeart]

I’m no homophobe, what I’m against is people using the Bible to defend homosexuality. Not that it needs defending but most orthodox religions are pretty clear and unambiguous about what they think of homosexuality. That’s it. I wasn’t speaking for myself or my views on it.

The point is people have their views .

It's not about using it to defend sexuality ,but I don't like how Christianity gets used as an easy target . This was the main headline on the news ,but in other countries there's people with zero rights . Plus not all religious people are mental .

[Marsh.]

Yes. It cured me of my insatiable lust for Smithy.

[Twosugars]

Yes. It cured me of my insatiable lust for Smithy.
oop
might have to try that then :think:

[Redway]

The point is people have their views .

It's not about using it to defend sexuality ,but I don't like how Christianity gets used as an easy target . This was the main headline on the news ,but in other countries there's people with zero rights . Plus not all religious people are mental .

That’s because another religion’s headed by a paedo and responsible for too many national disasters since the turn of the century. You’d be hard-pressed to find someone who’s got anything positive to say about Islam in the first place.

[Beso]

Stop trying to evade the point.

Why would gay people seek validation from a corrupt book like the Bible in the first place?

Because they believe in god?

[Beso]

:kiss: and a cheeky bum squeeze for you then ;)

So did you mean society or the forum?

[Twosugars]

The point is people have their views .

It's not about using it to defend sexuality ,but I don't like how Christianity gets used as an easy target . This was the main headline on the news ,but in other countries there's people with zero rights . Plus not all religious people are mental .

I get where you're coming from. There are "worse" religions, but it's easy to have a go at Christianity as they won't accuse you of e.g. anti-semitism or islamophobia. Not to mention nobody will come round to kill you.

But having said that I'm with Redway, we can't deny all three Abrahamic religions have anti-homosexual texts in them which are still used to discriminate.

[Twosugars]

So did you mean society or the forum?

my reply is rhetorical: is not a forum but a reflection of society? :)

[Beso]

my reply is rhetorical: isn't a forum but a reflection of society? :)


Gutless.:sad:

[GoldHeart]

I get where you're coming from. There are "worse" religions, but it's easy to have a go at Christianity as they won't accuse you of e.g. anti-semitism or islamophobia. Not to mention nobody will come round to kill you.

But having said that I'm with Redway, we can't deny all three Abrahamic religions have anti-homosexual texts in them which are still used to discriminate.

There's still no denying Religion brings comfort to some people , even the most devout person struggles with their faith .

There's plenty of loving open minded religious people around as well . Not everyone is a strict militant with fingers in their ears .

[Twosugars]

Gutless.:sad:


you want to me to say the forum, don't you:fist:
why would I do that? this is a largely gay-friendly forum
so why you feel the need to defend gays on here? :suspect:

[Redway]

Bible makes itself crystal clear still. That bit can’t be denied.

cc. GoldHeart

[Twosugars]

There's still no denying Religion brings comfort to some people , even the most devout person struggles with their faith .

There's plenty of loving open minded religious people around as well . Not everyone is a strict militant with fingers in their ears .

I defended religion last time it was discussed here, I mean the right to be religious etc
I don't disagree with you GH. But let's not act surprised the religious texts formed a basis for persecution of homosexuality bc they have

[GoldHeart]

I defended religion last time it was discussed here, I mean the right to be religious etc
I don't disagree with you GH. But let's not act surprised the religious texts formed a basis for persecution of homosexuality bc they have

Yeah I know what you're saying TS , I remember the last discussion .

All over the world people are persecuted for who they are and what they believe in .

[Beso]

Part 2 was on last night, it shocked me that it is actually people volountary going to the pastor to be "cured"



Makes you think that some people have a stronger connection to god than they do
with or for their sexuality.

[Crimson Dynamo]

"religion brings many people comfort"


always gets brought up but with little or no actual evidence

Pretending that everythiung will be ok (it wornt) that you will go to heaven and see loved ones (you wont) that praying will help (it wont) that Jesus will come back and save the world (he wont)

is just that, pretending, and lying to yourself about anything wont comfort you

the 20,000 men who died on day one of WWI im sure all prayed to "god" to help them but they still all died horrific deaths and guess what, they are still dead

etc

[Niamh.]

Part 2 was on last night, it shocked me that it is actually people volountary going to the pastor to be "cured"



Makes you think that some people have a stronger connection to god than they do
with or for their sexuality.

I didn't watch the programme but do you think it's a connection to god or that they don't want to be ostracized by their families etc?

[Redway]

"religion brings many people comfort"


always gets brought up but with little or no actual evidence

Pretending that everythiung will be ok (it wornt) that you will go to heaven and see loved ones (you wont) that praying will help (it wont) that Jesus will come back and save the world (he wont)

is just that, pretending, and lying to yourself about anything wont comfort you

the 20,000 men who died on day one of WWI im sure all prayed to "god" to help them but they still all died horrific deaths and guess what, they are still dead

etc

Do you get a kick out of being so insensitive?

[Livia]

I get where you're coming from. There are "worse" religions, but it's easy to have a go at Christianity as they won't accuse you of e.g. anti-semitism or islamophobia. Not to mention nobody will come round to kill you.

But having said that I'm with Redway, we can't deny all three Abrahamic religions have anti-homosexual texts in them which are still used to discriminate.

The fundamentalists of those religions discriminate... the extremists... But there are rabbis who will bless your gay marriage, some Christian vicars will even marry gay couples. I rarely meet a contemporary person of faith who believes God made a mistake with gay people. And frankly, if they're going to discriminate against people for being gay then they're not my kind of people.

Just a word about your first para, 2S... No ringletted Frommer is goinging round to anyone's house to kill them or there'd be a whole pile of Corbynites awaiting burial.

[Livia]

"religion brings many people comfort"


always gets brought up but with little or no actual evidence

Pretending that everythiung will be ok (it wornt) that you will go to heaven and see loved ones (you wont) that praying will help (it wont) that Jesus will come back and save the world (he wont)

is just that, pretending, and lying to yourself about anything wont comfort you

the 20,000 men who died on day one of WWI im sure all prayed to "god" to help them but they still all died horrific deaths and guess what, they are still dead

etc

There are no atheists in a foxhole, LT.

You can't dismiss faith if you don't know what it is. It's like dissing the English language without being able to speak it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Do you get a kick out of being so insensitive?

reality has no feelings

[Crimson Dynamo]

There are no atheists in a foxhole, LT.

You can't dismiss faith if you don't know what it is. It's like dissing the English language without being able to speak it.

faith is a nasty word for superstition and believing in stuff with no evidence

its not a word i am fond of

and yes there are, id imagine a lot of those who survived the 2 wars realised that there was no God and felt betrayed

[Redway]

reality has no feelings

Doesn’t kill to show a bit of tact when you’re talking about touchy things like death.

Or do you just prefer being as insensitive as possible to show us all what a hardcore rationalist you are?

[Livia]

faith is a nasty word for superstition and believing in stuff with no evidence

its not a word i am fond of

and yes there are, id imagine a lot of those who survived the 2 wars realised that there was no God and felt betrayed

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

[Beso]

I didn't watch the programme but do you think it's a connection to god or that they don't want to be ostracized by their families etc?

it definatly seemed like a connection to god rather than any form of persecution.

[Twosugars]

The fundamentalists of those religions discriminate... the extremists... But there are rabbis who will bless your gay marriage, some Christian vicars will even marry gay couples. I rarely meet a contemporary person of faith who believes God made a mistake with gay people. And frankly, if they're going to discriminate against people for being gay then they're not my kind of people.

Just a word about your first para, 2S... No ringletted Frommer is goinging round to anyone's house to kill them or there'd be a whole pile of Corbynites awaiting burial.

Haven't had a chance to talk to all those progressives but I wonder how far their acceptance goes? Do they still think homosexuality is a sin, but we're all sinners etc. That's the line the pope takes for example. I.e. they'd happily embrace homos etc but still think we're wrong about our sex lives, just politely not say it?
Re. your second para, you know that I had Islamist terrorists in mind, but ta for the mental image ;) Would choking them on matzo (no water allowed) be the method of killing?

[Twosugars]

it definatly seemed like a connection to god rather than any form of persecution.
Connection to religion rather than god.
I'd say most homosexuals battle internal homophobia. Usually it's "gifted" to them by the hetoronormative world around them, sometimes reinforced by religion.
When coming out sometimes coming out to yourself is the hardest bit. Truly accepting who you are sexually and be ok with it.
So you can be gay and be a homophobe full of self-loathing.

[Redway]

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

Part of it’s him baiting. As per.

[TwentyOneThrones]

I mean if God could truly fix my Gayness, I'd be at those church doors as soon as possible.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I mean if God could truly fix my Gayness, I'd be at those church doors as soon as possible.

Which "God"?

[Beso]

Connection to religion rather than god.
I'd say most homosexuals battle internal homophobia. Usually it's "gifted" to them by the hetoronormative world around them, sometimes reinforced by religion.
When coming out sometimes coming out to yourself is the hardest bit. Truly accepting who you are sexually and be ok with it.
So you can be gay and be a homophobe full of self-loathing.

I don't buy any of that.. You can't blame straight people for a gay persons self loathing..

Gay people seem to have separated themselves from society rather than society shunning them.gay bars, pride marches, flags n banners...

So more and more they isolate themselves, staying amongst their own...society having less and less of an impact on their day to day lives, yet still able to blame anyone but themselves for their unhappiness..

[Redway]

Which "God"?

What drives a core rationalist like you to these threads in the first place?

[Twosugars]

I don't buy any of that.. You can't blame straight people for a gay persons self loathing..

Gay people seem to have separated themselves from society rather than society shunning them.gay bars, pride marches, flags n banners...

So more and more they isolate themselves, staying amongst their own...society having less and less of an impact on their day to day lives, yet still able to blame anyone but themselves for their unhappiness..

:facepalm:

I'm talking about gay people before coming out who view their gayness as something to overcome bc it is not viewed favourably by society. True it is changing now, but even now it's not everywhere.
Young gay person grows up aware gayness is used as an insult at school, parents may want grandchildren, the list goes on. And so they develop self-loathing of that part of themselves and wish they could be straight not to disappoint the expectations.
You're going on about separation which largely does not exist. Sure there are gay venues etc but that's to do with providing safe spaces where there's no judgement if you want to kiss somebody or hold their hand.
For somebody supposedly interested in fighting for our rights you seem to have very little understanding of basic stuff, Parm.
And btw, coming out and living openly as a gay person has a huge positive impact. Gay people are not unhappy as you seem to be saying. :facepalm:

[Maru]

Part 2 was on last night, it shocked me that it is actually people volountary going to the pastor to be "cured"



Makes you think that some people have a stronger connection to god than they do
with or for their sexuality.

That doesn't surprise me at all and I was going to post about something in that area.

I was going to post something to this effect. I'm not surprised at all. I think questions about the origins of sexuality, our minds, etc are all questions we all ask. Even outside of a sexuality POV.

Though I think it's a gray area for religion to provide "therapy" services. Even people with actual paperwork/licenses can do real harm. I know someone who a friend is seeing who is telling him things like he and this girl are on the same soul plane or some irrelevant nonsense. She used that to explain the intense attraction, when there were clearly other reasons for his obsessive behavior stemming from a very bad divorce. She is licensed.

I think most non-hetero folk innerly know when the switch is not movable. It's not going to be "cured" because it "just is". I don't think that God discourages questioning. If that person needs to have that "confrontation" with the Lord to get to the next stage of life, then I think let them. Some people feel a huge sense of support and comradery in their religious community... my thought, if we don't feel that way coming away from even simple service, then we're not in the place we need to be. The idea of a gay person going to conversion though out of self-loathing though is a recipe for disaster. So that's where I'm not sure I'm supportive or not of "gay conversion"... I can understand seeking support services while dealing with coming out for instance. That would be a real boon. However, conversion would only seem to attract folk who are coming from a damnation POV... and that does feel like it would send a Salem-esk vibe to the "flock".

I'm sorry that it's not a word you're fond of, LT, but regardless... faith isn't something you understand and that's no reason for me to stop using the word. I wish I could explain it to you or that you could feel it for yourself but you're so rabidly against it you'd never even try to understand.

So I'll continue to read how religious people are deluded and a bit stupid... and feel kind of sorry you're so angry about other people's beliefs.

Did you see the Prince Charles concert thing on TV last night? Rowan Atkinson? Hilarious...

I'm in the same frame of mind, Livia. :love: I don't expect other people to understand. And yes, that means also tolerating other people's POVs. We don't have to agree on everything.

[Beso]

:facepalm:

I'm talking about gay people before coming out who view their gayness as something to overcome bc it is not viewed favourably by society. True it is changing now, but even now it's not everywhere.
Young gay person grows up aware gayness is used as an insult at school, parents may want grandchildren, the list goes on. And so they develop self-loathing of that part of themselves and wish they could be straight not to disappoint the expectations.
You're going on about separation which largely does not exist. Sure there are gay venues etc but that's to do with providing safe spaces where there's no judgement if you want to kiss somebody or hold their hand.
For somebody supposedly interested in fighting for our rights you seem to have very little understanding of basic stuff, Parm.
And btw, coming out and living openly as a gay person has a huge positive impact. Gay people are not unhappy as you seem to be saying. :facepalm:

You brought unhappiness into the discussion so no winder you use the hang your head smiley:shrug:


Surely its more shame in the family home rather than society itself that makes the majority of people afraid to come out, come out.:shrug:

[Maru]

Surely its more shame in the family home rather than society itself that makes the majority of people afraid to come out, come out.:shrug:

Yeah I kind of agree with this. There's lots of things many of us are "accosted" for in society relating to stigmas growing up... part of becoming a whole person is rebutting and saying f** society and what it feels.

Though if your childhood was not supportive, it's very difficult to get off the ground. The emphasis shouldn't be on fixing "society" though, because society is not "fixable" and can't be micromanaged in that way... but rather, finding like-minded folk who will support those individuals and help guide them on their path.

I would think the lack of these types of role-models are more the issue. In my experience though, it seems many people prefer a victim-narrative than paving their own way. The problem is when it's most of us claiming dire need in some manner, it's not very good for the social fabric. I read a statistic yesterday, that nearly 40% of kids hitting 21 (or something like that) were born to unwed mothers... I knew it was high, but not quite that high.

[Twosugars]

Yeah I kind of agree with this. There's lots of things many of us are "accosted" for in society relating to stigmas growing up... part of becoming a whole person is rebutting and saying f** society and what it feels.

Though if your childhood was not supportive, it's very difficult to get off the ground. The emphasis shouldn't be on fixing "society" though, because society is not "fixable" and can't be micromanaged in that way... but rather, finding like-minded folk who will support those individuals and help guide them on their path.

I would think the lack of these types of role-models are more the issue. In my experience though, it seems many people prefer a victim-narrative than paving their own way. The problem is when it's most of us claiming dire need in some manner, it's not very good for the social fabric. I read a statistic yesterday, that nearly 40% of kids hitting 21 (or something like that) were born to unwed mothers... I knew it was high, but not quite that high.

I'm sorry Maru, I'm sure it's my fault for being thick, by I still don't know what you're trying to say here re. gays.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't changing attitudes in society a sign that it is "fixable"? I.e. that it things change?
Are your musings on victim-narrative connected to gays as a group?
I thought we have fought hard for all changes in law that happened over the last 50 years or so, with the help of our straight alllies. So where's the victimhood?
I might have got it wrong so would appreciate your thoughts.

[Twosugars]

You brought unhappiness into the discussion so no winder you use the hang your head smiley:shrug:


Surely its more shame in the family home rather than society itself that makes the majority of people afraid to come out, come out.:shrug:

Did I? It is your thread about god fixing gayness, which implies somebody has to be unhappy about gayness in the first place, right? I didn't bring unhapiness to your thread, your thread is about unhappy gays, full stop.

Ok, then not society but environment, is that better? Environment which include home, school, work, neighbours.

The bottom line is people are born being gay, but they're not born being ashamed/unhappy about being gay. That they acquire from somewhere else. The world around them.

[Maru]

I'm sorry Maru, I'm sure it's my fault for being thick, by I still don't know what you're trying to say here re. gays.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't changing attitudes in society a sign that it is "fixable"? I.e. that it things change?
Are your musings on victim-narrative connected to gays as a group?
I thought we have fought hard for all changes in law that happened over the last 50 years or so, with the help of our straight alllies. So where's the victimhood?
I'm sure I got it wrong so would appreciate your thoughts.

It's down to how you look at it I guess. (I don't think that angle is thick at all, 2S) Society for me is the last point of change that is affected by culture. It's usually hit&miss how laws/mantras/"movements"/etc effect how people interact, so I tend to see it as a passive change, not a direct one. i.e. It's not a "fixed" equation, like we plug in a couple of variables and everyone starts behaving differently, interacting in a healthier way, etc. There is this thought we can place in a middleman (like a school system) inbetween the individual who desires change and society in every instance to create the effect we want. I actually think it's down to exposure: more & more folk running into other kids/people who have come out of the closet earlier and earlier in their life. If those interactions are healthy and not force-fed, then that will tend to lead to progress I think... but if it's not done in a healthy manner, there will backlash. So I think it comes down to homosexual folk to being that first/second/third generation of role-models... not happy go-lucky narratives of "gay people good!1"... for instance, I heard plenty of the pro-Christian/anti-Satanism rhetoric growing up in the US and in Texas schools, but I seldom hear anyone quote a Bible and there's only been an increase in secularity ever since. (Hopefully I explained that well.)

If we wait on society to pick up all the burden, then changes will take way too long*(edit) I think.

Re: Victim-narrative relates to that above, but it's more to do with cultural trends (all peoples), not just LGBT folk. If more and more people are looking towards the external for the solution(s) to their problems, then they're not part of the solution. That will and has caused a deficit in positive role-models over time... for instance, higher suicide rates in males (lack of father figures don't help).

[Beso]

Did I? It is your thread about god fixing gayness, which implies somebody has to be unhappy about gayness in the first place, right? I didn't bring unhapiness to your thread, your thread is about unhappy gays, full stop.

Ok, then not society but environment, is that better? Environment which include home, school, work, neighbours.

The bottom line is people are born being gay, but they're not born being ashamed/unhappy about being gay. That they acquire from somewhere else. The world around them.


People are unhappy at a lot of things in life, work, money marriage...

[Livia]

Haven't had a chance to talk to all those progressives but I wonder how far their acceptance goes? Do they still think homosexuality is a sin, but we're all sinners etc. That's the line the pope takes for example. I.e. they'd happily embrace homos etc but still think we're wrong about our sex lives, just politely not say it?
Re. your second para, you know that I had Islamist terrorists in mind, but ta for the mental image ;) Would choking them on matzo (no water allowed) be the method of killing?

I don't know anyone from my family, nor anyone from my synagogue who has the slightest thought that gay people are different and shouldn't be happy. I can't speak for people of all faiths, and not everyone in my own, but the consensus amongst Jews I know is that God doesn't make mistakes.

If you're going to kill a Frommer, best thing to use would be a pork chop.

[Crimson Dynamo]

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

[user104658]

I don't know anyone from my family, nor anyone from my synagogue who has the slightest thought that gay people are different and shouldn't be happy. I can't speak for people of all faiths, and not everyone in my own, but the consensus amongst Jews I know is that God doesn't make mistakes.


Right but the idea from religious people I've talked to in any depth about this (all Christian, admittedly) is that they generally argue that homosexuality (or at least homosexual acts) are a choice borne of free will, and that as God knowingly gave people free will, it's not God's mistake if someone "chooses" to be actively homosexual - it is their own.

I would add though that none of these people were "hateful" towards gay people or didn't want gay people to find happiness, more of a philosophical acceptance that it "is a sin" but that that's between that person and God and it's not other people's place to judge (as everyone sins to some degree, etc etc).

I've also had a iscussion with one person who was pondering whether maybe people were actually born gay, God might actually have chosen to make them gay, as some sort of Book of Job style "test" i.e. chose for some people to be born with strong homosexual urges to test their ability to resist those urges, as it's only the act - not the desire - that's sinful.

Which is an interesting(?) perspective... I suppose...

[user104658]

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

The reasons are pretty obvious for that to be fair. The man is attracted to other men and not to women. His religion tells him that he's not allowed to be with a man, but he doesn't WANT to be with a woman... but there is an expectation to be a husband and father and people are going to ask questions. But not if you're a priest - priests aren't supposed to be interested in men OR women - so it was historically a natural "hiding place" for gay men who didn't want people asking why they weren't interested in women. Though of course, repression inevitably leads to "scandal" which is, I believe, a large part of the reason that Protestantism started allowing their "holy men" to have a wife / family, to make it a more "normal" path through life rather than a huge alternative lifestyle decision.

[Niamh.]

Right but the idea from religious people I've talked to in any depth about this (all Christian, admittedly) is that they generally argue that homosexuality (or at least homosexual acts) are a choice borne of free will, and that as God knowingly gave people free will, it's not God's mistake if someone "chooses" to be actively homosexual - it is their own.

I would add though that none of these people were "hateful" towards gay people or didn't want gay people to find happiness, more of a philosophical acceptance that it "is a sin" but that that's between that person and God and it's not other people's place to judge (as everyone sins to some degree, etc etc).

I've also had a iscussion with one person who was pondering whether maybe people were actually born gay, God might actually have chosen to make them gay, as some sort of Book of Job style "test" i.e. chose for some people to be born with strong homosexual urges to test their ability to resist those urges, as it's only the act - not the desire - that's sinful.

Which is an interesting(?) perspective... I suppose...



That sounds unbelievably cruel, who would want to follow a god like that?

Also, what is the story with all this "testing of faith"? I never understood why it would be so important to god to want people to blindly believe he exist? Why?

[Beso]

what is mental is that for Christianity in the past a sure-fire career for a homosexual man was in the ministry

i have been thinking about that the last few days and my thinking is that they joined the clergy to innitially supress those homosexual thoughts...

[Crimson Dynamo]

i have been thinking about that the last few days and my thinking is that they joined the clergy to innitially supress those homosexual thoughts...

yes id imagine some did and some thought it a way to avoid persecution. As for the catholic ones , a lot thought it a great way to get access to boys and use the god bolloxio in their abuse

[Niamh.]

yes id imagine some did and some thought it a way to avoid persecution. As for the catholic ones , a lot thought it a great way to get access to boys and use the god bolloxio in their abuse

You're getting homosexuality and paedophilia mixed up there LT. That's pretty offensive. Little girls were also abused by these paedophile priests

[user104658]

That sounds unbelievably cruel, who would want to follow a god like that?

I don't know, compared to the actual content of the Book of Job it's pretty easy-going :joker:. It's so grim :umm2:

[Crimson Dynamo]

You're getting homosexuality and paedophilia mixed up there LT. That's pretty offensive. Little girls were also abused by these paedophile priests

No i am not (although yes it reads like that) I mean a lot of paedos not a lot of gay people targetted catholic priest jobs

[Niamh.]

No i am not (although yes it reads like that) I mean a lot of paedos not a lot of gay people targetted catholic priest jobs

Oh ok, that's fair enough. I did think when I was younger that priests became paedophiles because of the weird sexual repressions and thinking kids would keep quiet etc but I've changed my mind about that now and yeah I agree it probably just looked like a Utopian existence to a paedophile

[Gstar]

Personally no but I have a friend who was “healed” by God and turned straight

[Beso]

Personally no but I have a friend who was “healed” by God and turned straight

So it is possible then...with some mind control?