lets face it there going to be a second public vote

[michael21]

52% voted leave last time now more will vote say :dance:

This will happen because I said so :cheer2::smug:

[Denver]

Just makes a mockery of the country

[Twosugars]

my considered opinion is **** brexit

[Nicky91]

my considered opinion is **** brexit

i guess most who are opposed to May her brexit deal, rather want no brexit

[Livia]

Everyone's against May's proposed deal. Trouble is, most people have no idea what's in it.

I wouldn't be surprised if this WHOLE cake-and-arse show was put together by remainers hoping to get another vote.

If there IS a second referendum I don't believe we would any longer be able to call ourselves a democracy. Furthermore... when are we going to here someone mention the appallingly pedantic, rude and patronising way that the EU had dealt with the UK over Brexit.

[user104658]

If there IS a second referendum I don't believe we would any longer be able to call ourselves a democracy.

Because if there's one thing that's inherently undemocratic, it's putting things to a public vote :fist:

[Livia]

Because if there's one thing that's inherently undemocratic, it's putting things to a public vote :fist:

If there's anything that's inherently undemocratic it's ignoring the first vote because the remain camp is very loud.

[user104658]

If there's anything that's inherently undemocratic it's ignoring the first vote because the remain camp is very loud.

I don't think that's an accurate representation of what's actually happening, though. The issue wasn't considered for long enough (or really, at all) before the first vote was called... there should have been at least the outline of a "roadmap to Brexit" before the first referrendum, and the whole thing has been an absolute shambles. If there are clear indications that public opinion has shifted in a meaningful way, then of course polling that is democratic? If there hasn't been a shift in public opinion then a second poll will only reflect that. At the end of the day, for the final decision to be democratic, all that really matters is that the will of the people is followed to the best of the government's knowledge. In fact... continuing with Brexit because of the previous poll - knowing that there's a possibility that that poll no longer represents the population - is quite undemocratic.

Now if it became a case of "poll after poll until people get the outcome they want", or holding a second poll when nothing has changed, then I definitely agree that it would be undemocratic... but that's really not the case here. A lot more information is available, a lot has changed in the 18 months since the referendum, there IS reason to believe that the desires of the public may have changed, and the only responsible choice for an elected government (in my opinion) is to at least be sure before making vast changes.

If it's still Brexit then fine. In fact, even if it's "too close to call" (say 51% remain) I would say it's probably right to still forge ahead with the plans, but if a second poll came up 60-40 for remain? Then Brexit is obviously not what the British people want.

[Livia]

I don't think that's an accurate representation of what's actually happening, though. The issue wasn't considered for long enough (or really, at all) before the first vote was called... there should have been at least the outline of a "roadmap to Brexit" before the first referrendum, and the whole thing has been an absolute shambles. If there are clear indications that public opinion has shifted in a meaningful way, then of course polling that is democratic? If there hasn't been a shift in public opinion then a second poll will only reflect that. At the end of the day, for the final decision to be democratic, all that really matters is that the will of the people is followed to the best of the government's knowledge. In fact... continuing with Brexit because of the previous poll - knowing that there's a possibility that that poll no longer represents the population - is quite undemocratic.

Now if it became a case of "poll after poll until people get the outcome they want", or holding a second poll when nothing has changed, then I definitely agree that it would be undemocratic... but that's really not the case here. A lot more information is available, a lot has changed in the 18 months since the referendum, there IS reason to believe that the desires of the public may have changed, and the only responsible choice for an elected government (in my opinion) is to at least be sure before making vast changes.

If it's still Brexit then fine. In fact, even if it's "too close to call" (say 51% remain) I would say it's probably right to still forge ahead with the plans, but if a second poll came up 60-40 for remain? Then Brexit is obviously not what the British people want.

I didn't think you would.

[user104658]

I didn't think you would.

https://media.giphy.com/media/C7XaPdXaaKQNy/giphy.gif

[caprimint]

I agree with you, I've said this for ages

I don't follow the news btw, what actually is Theresa's Brexit deal???

[user104658]

what actually is Theresa's Brexit deal???

Wishy-washy is the best way to describe it. I don't think ANYONE likes it, and it basically amounts to more or less still being in the EU for the foreseeable future, except without any of the real benefits of membership, and also a big Brexit bill added to our debts.

We really do need to either scrap the whole thing and continue with the EU and a red face, or go properly "Brexit Meanz Brexit", go for it and hope for the best. It's a half-in-half-out arrangement that's just... limp.

Again though, this is because they called a referendum for a "full Brexit" without even ****ing bothering to check whether or not it was feasible to untangle the web. The referendum should never have been proposed as a binding thing. It should have been done to survey the public's feelings on the matter and then see what could be done to step away from it over the LONG term, as in decades. This idea that we could say "we want out!" and then hack at the bonds with a bread knife and declare ourselves out a couple of years later was just never going to work.

[caprimint]

Wishy-washy is the best way to describe it. I don't think ANYONE likes it, and it basically amounts to more or less still being in the EU for the foreseeable future, except without any of the real benefits of membership, and also a big Brexit bill added to our debts.

We really do need to either scrap the whole thing and continue with the EU and a red face, or go properly "Brexit Meanz Brexit", go for it and hope for the best. It's a half-in-half-out arrangement that's just... limp.

Again though, this is because they called a referendum for a "full Brexit" without even ****ing bothering to check whether or not it was feasible to untangle the web. The referendum should never have been proposed as a binding thing. It should have been done to survey the public's feelings on the matter and then see what could be done to step away from it over the LONG term, as in decades. This idea that we could say "we want out!" and then hack at the bonds with a bread knife and declare ourselves out a couple of years later was just never going to work.
Gotcha, thank you for the explanation :thumbs:

[Nicky91]

full brexit more sounds like a ''full english breakfast'' tbh lol

[Livia]

I agree with you, I've said this for ages

I don't follow the news btw, what actually is Theresa's Brexit deal???

FYI, Caprimint...

Source: conservatives.com

"...
Our agreement marks a decisive step forward. Learn how our Brexit deal delivers on the referendum.

We have agreed in principle the terms of the UK’s smooth and orderly exit from the EU while also agreeing the broad terms of our future relationship as set out in the outline Political Declaration.

This puts us close to a Brexit deal. A deal that takes back control of our borders, our laws and our money while protecting jobs, security and the integrity of our United Kingdom.

It is a deal that brings our country together. A deal that realises the benefits of Brexit and lets us focus on the big domestic issues that face our country.

Although this represents a significant breakthrough, it is not the final deal. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

The Withdrawal Agreement:

● Protects the rights of more than three million EU citizens living in the UK and around one million UK nationals living in the EU.

● Gives us time-limited implementation period that provides a bridge to the future relationship, allowing businesses to continue trading as now until the end of 2020.

● Provides a fair financial settlement for UK taxpayers.

● Ensures no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, with a UK-wide backstop respecting the constitutional and economic integrity of the UK. This agreement legally commits both sides to use best endeavours to ensure the backstop is never used. If either side fails to do so, this could be referred to an independent arbitration panel.

● This includes a mechanism which either the UK or the EU can trigger to review the arrangements, which could ultimately lead to the backstop ceasing to apply.

The Political Declaration:

● Ends free movement of people and we will have a new skills-based immigration system.

● Provides for a free trade area and deep cooperation on goods, with zero tariffs and quotas.

● Gives the UK the ability to strike trade deals around the world.

● Calls for ambitious arrangements for services and investment, alongside new arrangements on financial services.

● Contains new and specific arrangements on digital, covering a wide-range of areas, reflecting the growth and prominence of global digital trade.

● Ensures the UK will be an independent coastal state, with commitments to ensure sustainable fishing levels and a new fisheries agreement with the EU.

● Ensures the UK will be outside the EU’s Common Agricultural Policy.

● Provides for open and fair competition, in line with the overall economic relationship with commitments by both the UK and the EU on state aid, employment and environmental standards, and relevant tax matters.

● Commits to comprehensive and close reciprocal law enforcement and judicial cooperation to keep people safe.

● A close and flexible partnership of foreign policy and defence.

The country faces a stark set of choices: this deal, no deal or no Brexit at all. I firmly believe that this agreement puts the country on a path towards a good deal that is in that national interest and can put the divisions of the referendum behind us.

We’ve made a decisive step forward. We have agreed in principle the terms of the UK’s smooth and orderly exit from the EU, as set out in the Withdrawal Agreement.

We have also agreed the broad terms of our future relationship as set out in the Outline Political Declaration.

The deal delivers on the referendum result.
The deal takes back control of our borders, ending free movement once and for all. It takes back control of our money, so we can spend it on our priorities like our long term plan for the NHS.

It takes back control of our laws, ending the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice, coming out of the Common Agricultural Policy, and out of the Common Fisheries Policy. It safeguards British jobs, and protects the security and the integrity of our precious United Kingdom.

The deal means we leave the EU in a smooth and orderly way.
We’ll have an implementation period, until the end of 2020, to make sure we leave the EU in a smooth and orderly way. British citizens who live in the EU and EU citizens who live in Britain are protected.

Our fair financial settlement honours our obligations and ends the vast payments to the EU. And there will be no hard border between Northern Ireland and Ireland. Guaranteed in a way which respects the constitutional and economic integrity of the UK.


The deal gives us the benefits of Brexit.
Free movement of people will end.
We’ll be free to sign trade deals with other countries.
We'll have a free trade area for goods with the EU.
We won’t pay any more vast contributions to the EU budget.
There won't be a hard border in Northern Ireland, or a border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK.
Flexibility on services and digital.
We'll leave the Common Agricultural Policy and the Common Fisheries Policy.
The European Court of Justice won’t have jurisdiction over the UK.
Continued security cooperation.
The direct effect of EU law in the UK will end.


..."

[Scarlett.]

If there's anything that's inherently undemocratic it's ignoring the first vote because the remain camp is very loud.

Or cause Vote Leave broke electoral law, which makes an actual real mockery of democracy :shrug:

[Mitchell]

Or cause Vote Leave broke electoral law, which makes an actual real mockery of democracy :shrug:

But that’s fine apparently cos 17m people!!!

[Tom4784]

People voted for this ****show and who would run it whilst ignoring the obvious problems (Brexit campaign was run on lies and misinformation and people bought May's 'Strong and Stable' **** despite witnessing how flip floppy her government was before the election) and now they've got to live with the consequences as they are getting what they voted for.

[The Slim Reaper]

There can't be a 2nd vote until all the brown folks and eastern europeans have been kicked out.

[reece(:]

Brexit is the worst thing that's happened in my lifetime and has taken so much well needed focus on NHS/education debates that need to be had. Get it over with /reverse it and let's get onto fixing other aspects of the country that are in dire straits.

[michael21]

Brexit is the worst thing that's happened in my lifetime and has taken so much well needed focus on NHS/education debates that need to be had. Get it over with /reverse it and let's get onto fixing other aspects of the country that are in dire straits.

There money available to fix these thing but if thing like NHS/education and more was sorted out there be no need for most mps

We must all vote in the second brexit vote

[Denver]

The NHS will never be fixed unless it goes under serious reform

[Beastie]

I knew from the beginning Brexit won't be happening.

[michael21]

I knew from the beginning Brexit won't be happening.

Well you could of told the prime minister :laugh:

[michael21]

The NHS will never be fixed unless it goes under serious reform

Good point lets all agree to reform it

Why cant it be like that in parlmemt

[Withano]

As a democratic country, we should do what the majority wants. The majority think leaving is stupid so we should remain.

[Withano]

If there IS a second referendum I don't believe we would any longer be able to call ourselves a democracy. Furthermore... when are we going to here someone mention the appallingly pedantic, rude and patronising way that the EU had dealt with the UK over Brexit.

Theres nothing undemocratic about following the will of the majority of the people... Considerably more undemocratic to ignore what the people of today want because of a result that was made at the end of a ****show last year.

[Maru]

I wouldn't "bet" on it. The Brexit situation seems like a never-ending rollercoaster. Sort of like a lot of issues here... I don't think anyone wants full responsibility for what happens, and the EU is going to keep pushing back for as long as they can see to see if they wear down May... probably. They were never going to let the UK leave on their own terms I guess.

[Nicky91]

As a democratic country, we should do what the majority wants. The majority think leaving is stupid so we should remain.

nope i expect the UK to leave the EU on 29th March 2019 which is the brexit date in the first place

[Livia]

Theres nothing undemocratic about following the will of the majority of the people... Considerably more undemocratic to ignore what the people of today want because of a result that was made at the end of a ****show last year.

Quite a different stance than when we voted to leave.

All I've heard since is "the will of the people" from the set that lost the last referendum.

[Livia]

Or cause Vote Leave broke electoral law, which makes an actual real mockery of democracy :shrug:

Tell me how they broke electoral law. I'd be very interested to hear your take on that. And I'd like to hear whether the "remain" camp played 100% fair and told only the truth.

[Livia]

But that’s fine apparently cos 17m people!!!

Again, let's have your take on the breach of electoral law you're all suddenly citing.

The bottom line is that neither side played fair in the referendum campaign. Neither side knew what the hell would happen. But the bottom line is that one side won the referendum and one side lost.

[bots]

I think enough has materially changed from the sound bites and lies and general misinformation surrounding the initial referendum, to warrant a new vote. However, I dont think it should be a rerun. I think it should be remain, or exit with the agreed terms. As much as everyone finds fault with May's deal, there is zero chance of getting anything different

[Livia]

I think enough has materially changed from the sound bites and lies and general misinformation surrounding the initial referendum, to warrant a new vote. However, I dont think it should be a rerun. I think it should be remain, or exit with the agreed terms. As much as everyone finds fault with May's deal, there is zero chance of getting anything different

There is zero chance of getting another deal which is why a general election, or at least a change of PM is getting more likely every day. May has been calling in her MPs one at a some to garner support and a large majority of them are refusing to see her. The consensus seems to be that the Chequers deal is dead in the water and the best deal is one being recommended by the European Research Group, the Super Canada deal, or Canada+++. The ERG has tried to cite it as a better alternative for months but Mrs May seems determined. Even though the Institute for Economic Affairs also published a report explaining in economic terms how such an agreement would work in practice.

It's a strange time in Westminster. Makes me glad to think I don't work in politics any more.

[Withano]

Quite a different stance than when we voted to leave.

All I've heard since is "the will of the people" from the set that lost the last referendum.

Well, unless you’ve changed your stance since the referendum, you shouldn’t have an issue.

So have you changed your stance and wish to now ignore the majority of the people? Your arguments on the thread make it seem as if you have. Which is undemocratic obvs.

[Nicky91]

last time i checked how people's opinion stand now on a brexit (leave or remain) there was a majority to remain

i cannot disagree with them, this whole brexit thing has gone so messy


i do think remain is better for the average working class british people, based on everything i read about the brexit deal or the no deal brexit (which is even worse for the british people than May her deal)

[Twosugars]

There is zero chance of getting another deal which is why a general election, or at least a change of PM is getting more likely every day. May has been calling in her MPs one at a some to garner support and a large majority of them are refusing to see her. The consensus seems to be that the Chequers deal is dead in the water and the best deal is one being recommended by the European Research Group, the Super Canada deal, or Canada+++. The ERG has tried to cite it as a better alternative for months but Mrs May seems determined. Even though the Institute for Economic Affairs also published a report explaining in economic terms how such an agreement would work in practice.

It's a strange time in Westminster. Makes me glad to think I don't work in politics any more.

is that the outfit associated with jacob rees mogg? :omgno:
no, thank you

[Tom4784]

The last referendum happened because people wanted it, if enough people call for it again then it's hypocritical to be opposed to it in the name of democracy just because you fear a different result.

I personally think that people have made their beds and now they must lie in it and hopefully learn that they should be informed when voting in the future but I can't be opposed to another referendum if that's what the majority want just like I couldn't be opposed to the first one but the swing voters and voters who voted in ignorance won't learn from it if it happens, sadly.

[Livia]

Well, unless you’ve changed your stance since the referendum, you shouldn’t have an issue.

So have you changed your stance and wish to now ignore the majority of the people? Your arguments on the thread make it seem as if you have. Which is undemocratic obvs.

What?

We've already had a referendum and a result. You would like another vote because the result wasn't what you wanted. That's not democracy. Maybe if people had got off their lazy arses and voted the first time round you'd have got your result. I don't believe in running it again for people who didn't vote the first time.

[Tom4784]

What?

We've already had a referendum and a result. You would like another vote because the result wasn't what you wanted. That's not democracy. Maybe if people had got off their lazy arses and voted the first time round you'd have got your result. I don't believe in running it again for people who didn't vote the first time.

But isn't that what you're doing now? If enough of a majority call out for another vote then surely the democratic solution would be to listen like the government eventually did the first time. I'm with you that the brexit voters made their bed but in the case that most people want another vote, it's hypocritical to oppose it if you didn't oppose people calling for the vote in the first place. You're basically saying you don't want a do-over because you don't want people who didn't vote before to change the result to something you don't want.

I think this whole post is just ****ing wrong really. I should have highlighted all of it on second thought.

Describing people who didn't vote as lazy is an ignorant statement, I'd say it's lazier just to vote one way or another without being informed on each side's argument but that's what people do in their droves.

At the end of the day, Livia. You can't preach in the name of democracy in one sentence and then say you don't want another vote because of people who didn't vote the first time, what about their right to democracy?

It's all or nothing Livia, you can't pick or choose what elements of democracy you like or what benefits you. I don't want another vote either but if the people demand it then it's the government's job to listen.

[bots]

In normal circumstances I wouldn't be in favour of holding another referendum, but the details of our planned exit are so different from what was put forward at the time of the referendum that I think its madness not to have another vote now. The people were lied to .... thats NOT democracy.

[user104658]

The argument that it "isn't democracy" if there's a second vote is just plain incorrect to be honest. All that's required for it to "be democracy" is that the will of the majority is adhered to... if the will of the majority is now to halt brexit, and a vote shows that, and that's what happens... that is obviously democracy. Of course there are plenty of criticisms that can be aimed at the idea of a second vote but the statement that it "isn't democracy" is just not true.

Arguably, if people were immediately calling for repeated votes after every result it would be fair to call that a "broken" democracy, or an attempt to manipulate democracy, though it is still technically democracy (as there would still be a majority vote that would have to be won). That would be a major problem.

Holding a second vote 18 months+ after the original vote in a massively changed political climate and with an absolute TONNE of additional information on the table? That not only seems like valid democracy, it seems sensible, and refusing to double check that the course being taken is indeed the current will of the majority of the people actually seems quite reckless. Anyone who would happily watch brexit proceed "because they personally want it and it was voted for in 2017", despite knowing that they may well now be in the minority, I honestly don't believe really gives much of a **** about "democracy" at all. It feels disingenuous. "This is an affront to democracy :fist:" = "This isn't what I want and I'm scared that the majority of people don't want what I want any more so I won't get it".

The referendum should never have been binding in the first place. They can be used to poll public opinion and that's what should have happened in the first place... a vote to see if there was a desire to leave the EU, followed by a lengthy in-depth study into whether it was economically viable (or even possible) to actually do so. The whole issue has been handled so recklessly that it would be hilarious, if it wasn't bloody scary.

[bots]

The argument that it "isn't democracy" if there's a second vote is just plain incorrect to be honest. All that's required for it to "be democracy" is that the will of the majority is adhered to... if the will of the majority is now to halt brexit, and a vote shows that, and that's what happens... that is obviously democracy. Of course there are plenty of criticisms that can be aimed at the idea of a second vote but the statement that it "isn't democracy" is just not true.

Arguably, if people were immediately calling for repeated votes after every result it would be fair to call that a "broken" democracy, or an attempt to manipulate democracy, though it is still technically democracy (as there would still be a majority vote that would have to be won). That would be a major problem.

Holding a second vote 18 months+ after the original vote in a massively changed political climate and with an absolute TONNE of additional information on the table? That not only seems like valid democracy, it seems sensible, and refusing to double check that the course being taken is indeed the current will of the majority of the people actually seems quite reckless. Anyone who would happily watch brexit proceed "because they personally want it and it was voted for in 2017", despite knowing that they may well now be in the minority, I honestly don't believe really gives much of a **** about "democracy" at all. It feels disingenuous. "This is an affront to democracy :fist:" = "This isn't what I want and I'm scared that the majority of people don't want what I want any more so I won't get it".

The referendum should never have been binding in the first place. They can be used to poll public opinion and that's what should have happened in the first place... a vote to see if there was a desire to leave the EU, followed by a lengthy in-depth study into whether it was economically viable (or even possible) to actually do so. The whole issue has been handled so recklessly that it would be hilarious, if it wasn't bloody scary.

As it happens, referendums are not legally binding, they are advisory only. Legally, the responsibility rests with MP's and always has.

[hijaxers]

last time i checked how people's opinion stand now on a brexit (leave or remain) there was a majority to remain

i cannot disagree with them, this whole brexit thing has gone so messy


i do think remain is better for the average working class british people, based on everything i read about the brexit deal or the no deal brexit (which is even worse for the british people than May her deal)

I will vote out again and i feel even more strongly now.

[Nicky91]

I will vote out again and i feel even more strongly now.

yes liberate us europe from the UK's grasp


brexit is our independence from the UK, and a torture for the british people

[Withano]

What?

We've already had a referendum and a result. You would like another vote because the result wasn't what you wanted. That's not democracy. Maybe if people had got off their lazy arses and voted the first time round you'd have got your result. I don't believe in running it again for people who didn't vote the first time.

Yeh I don’t see your point either. If it was democratic to leave the EU when more than 50% wanted to leave last year, then it is just as democratic, if not, more democratic to stay in the EU if over 50% want to stay in the EU today.

If we voted remain a second time we should respect that until a mood seems to change again. It’s nothing to do with being lazy the first time, well maybe a little, but more to do with a million people or so realising they were wrong the first time round.

[Marsh.]

full brexit more sounds like a ''full english breakfast'' tbh lol

:unsure:

[user104658]

As it happens, referendums are not legally binding, they are advisory only. Legally, the responsibility rests with MP's and always has.

Well yes, but if they're announced as a "public decision" then I guess there's an expectation that it will be acted on. However, there was nothing stopping them from calling a spade a spade in the first place and saying that the referendum was to gauge public opinion on EU membership... with it being clear that a leave result would lead to exploring the options for leaving.

Even with it being as it was, it's ridiculous how rushed it all has been. These huge political shifts take time, not 18 months! They shouldn't even have been THINKING about pulling the trigger until 3 to 5 years after the vote.

[Tom4784]

I will vote out again and i feel even more strongly now.

It'll come down to the swing voters like it did before rather than the die hards on either side and I doubt this time, given how much (and how fast) the Brexit promises fell apart in practice, the swing vote will vote against it.

[michael21]

End of January beginning of February will be the big public vote

Cant wait to stay in

[Crimson Dynamo]

breaking: tomorrows vote cancelled according to Bloomberg

[Nicky91]

1072094601123635201

[Crimson Dynamo]

strong and stable

[Tom4784]

Hopefully the voters remember this when it comes to the next election so they don't vote for slogans and whichever party gets the best headlines.

[LaLaLand]

Well I'm NEVER voting again for as long as I live if this gets overturned, seriously.

We're a democracy at the end of the day, and my vote to leave has basically been considered as "wrong", it's disgusting.

[Tom4784]

Well I'm NEVER voting again for as long as I live if this gets overturned, seriously.

We're a democracy at the end of the day, and my vote to leave has basically been considered as "wrong", it's disgusting.

The election invalidated the referendum essentially because people were dumb enough to vote for the Tories despite all the signs pointing to them ****ing up brexit. Anyone that voted leave and then voted Tory shot themselves in the foot.

[LaLaLand]

The election invalidated the referendum essentially because people were dumb enough to vote for the Tories despite all the signs pointing to them ****ing up brexit. Anyone that voted leave and then voted Tory shot themselves in the foot.

Basically yeah, thankfully I'm not one of those people.

Our country is an absolute laughing-stock in every way politically to the rest of the world now. Indecisive and childish.

[Tom4784]

Basically yeah, thankfully I'm not one of those people.

Our country is an absolute laughing-stock in every way politically to the rest of the world now.

It's silly really, Theresa May takes office and says there's not going to be another election and then changes her mind a few weeks later, she says, in the election, that no deal is better than a bad deal and now she's pushing a woeful deal. She's flip flopped on every issue before the election and people still voted for her, an ardent remainer paying lip service to brexit just because she said a slogan a bunch of times like she was a pokemon.

It's all a joke and given how badly Brexit's going so far, people likely will demand another vote and we'll repeat the whole thing over again and then why the Leave side loses, we won't hear the end of it.

[hijaxers]

Basically yeah, thankfully I'm not one of those people.

Our country is an absolute laughing-stock in every way politically to the rest of the world now. Indecisive and childish.

Same here Jonnii , what a complete farce the tories have made of this and just about everything else.

[Cherie]

It's silly really, Theresa May takes office and says there's not going to be another election and then changes her mind a few weeks later, she says, in the election, that no deal is better than a bad deal and now she's pushing a woeful deal. She's flip flopped on every issue before the election and people still voted for her, an ardent remainer paying lip service to brexit just because she said a slogan a bunch of times like she was a pokemon.

It's all a joke and given how badly Brexit's going so far, people likely will demand another vote and we'll repeat the whole thing over again and then why the Leave side loses, we won't hear the end of it.

They can easily solve this by doing what they should have done in the first place, Leave or Remain have to win by a clear pre-decided margin for the vote to be upheld

[Cherie]

Hopefully the voters remember this when it comes to the next election so they don't vote for slogans and whichever party gets the best headlines.

For the many, not the few is not much better than strong and stable, our two main parties are abysmal and anyone who thinks Corbyn and Co would have done a better job is deluding themselves, the EU were always in the driving seat

[Denver]

The election invalidated the referendum essentially because people were dumb enough to vote for the Tories despite all the signs pointing to them ****ing up brexit. Anyone that voted leave and then voted Tory shot themselves in the foot.

qoud you be saying the same had Remain won?

[Tom4784]

They can easily solve this by doing what they should have done in the first place, Leave or Remain have to win by a clear pre-decided margin for the vote to be upheld

I agree with that but it'd never happen because that means that the Leave side would likely lose if they can't get a majority.

We're doomed to dance this dance for as long as it takes, it seems.

[Tom4784]

For the many, not the few is not much better than strong and stable, our two main parties are abysmal and anyone who thinks Corbyn and Co would have done a better job is deluding themselves, the EU were always in the driving seat

In fairness, there was a lot more substance to the Labour campaign, it was May that pretty much got destroyed in every interview and debate because she couldn't do much if she couldn't say 'strong and stable' every two seconds. You can't really compare May's reliance on a slogan to Labour simply having one like all campaigns do.

If you want brexit, surely it would be better to put someone who actually wanted to leave the EU in charge over someone who is wishy washy at best. Brexit voters by large voted for a remainer to handle Brexit and now they are complaining that they aren't getting the brexit they wanted when the writing was on the wall before the election took place.

[Headie]

Well I'm NEVER voting again for as long as I live if this gets overturned, seriously.

We're a democracy at the end of the day, and my vote to leave has basically been considered as "wrong", it's disgusting.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/f5efb80172fa7a4cb52f17257b712126/tumblr_najbx8Eglq1sqbiv1o3_250.gif

[Tom4784]

qoud you be saying the same had Remain won?

No because if Remaiin won, we wouldn't have had another general election and we wouldn't be in this situation so no, I wouldn't be saying the same.

Should be obvious really.

[rusticgal]

Well I'm NEVER voting again for as long as I live if this gets overturned, seriously.

We're a democracy at the end of the day, and my vote to leave has basically been considered as "wrong", it's disgusting.


I agree. It's pathetic. A second referendum will have the obvious outcome because anyone who voted to leave won't bother to vote because a majority of the government don't want it...and they will do everything in their power to not make it work. So much for democracy.

[LaLaLand]

https://38.media.tumblr.com/f5efb80172fa7a4cb52f17257b712126/tumblr_najbx8Eglq1sqbiv1o3_250.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/11-17-2015/hkyXV2.gif

[hijaxers]

For the many, not the few is not much better than strong and stable, our two main parties are abysmal and anyone who thinks Corbyn and Co would have done a better job is deluding themselves, the EU were always in the driving seat

Yeah and determined to run us over !

[user104658]

Well I'm NEVER voting again for as long as I live if this gets overturned, seriously.

We're a democracy at the end of the day, and my vote to leave has basically been considered as "wrong", it's disgusting.

It's not "wrong", full Brexit is just not feasible. It was never feasible. If you're going to be angry about anything, be angry about being lied to about it in the first place.

Basically some people promised that they could turn lead into gold and now they're admitting "lol wups obviously we can't actually do that", so it's a mess. It is ALREADY a mockery of democracy. Not because "what was voted for isn't being done", but because the public were allowed to vote on something that the government - now, and at the time - KNEW they COULD not deliver.

[michael21]

The pm has lie yet again she fired

[Withano]

Well I'm NEVER voting again for as long as I live if this gets overturned, seriously.

We're a democracy at the end of the day, and my vote to leave has basically been considered as "wrong", it's disgusting.

I’d sooner call it outdated than wrong if thats any better tbf. There was a reasonably open debate back at the time of the vote... there isnt really anymore.. theres a pretty obvious correct answer from every perspective now.

[Beso]

People voted for this ****show and who would run it whilst ignoring the obvious problems (Brexit campaign was run on lies and misinformation and people bought May's 'Strong and Stable' **** despite witnessing how flip floppy her government was before the election) and now they've got to live with the consequences as they are getting what they voted for.

We would be if politicians would stop blocking the bloody thing for political gain.

[Cherie]

In fairness, there was a lot more substance to the Labour campaign, it was May that pretty much got destroyed in every interview and debate because she couldn't do much if she couldn't say 'strong and stable' every two seconds. You can't really compare May's reliance on a slogan to Labour simply having one like all campaigns do.

If you want brexit, surely it would be better to put someone who actually wanted to leave the EU in charge over someone who is wishy washy at best. Brexit voters by large voted for a remainer to handle Brexit and now they are complaining that they aren't getting the brexit they wanted when the writing was on the wall before the election took place.

I would agree but there weren't too many options when Cameron headed for the hills, that was the point Boris should have stepped up but he covered his own back instead

[Crimson Dynamo]

It's not "wrong", full Brexit is just not feasible. It was never feasible. If you're going to be angry about anything, be angry about being lied to about it in the first place.

Basically some people promised that they could turn lead into gold and now they're admitting "lol wups obviously we can't actually do that", so it's a mess. It is ALREADY a mockery of democracy. Not because "what was voted for isn't being done", but because the public were allowed to vote on something that the government - now, and at the time - KNEW they COULD not deliver.

same happens in every general election

and in every referendum

unless you know of any where lies, exaggeration and inflated bollox was not all pervading?

[bots]

There is no disputing that it has been an almighty mess, and I think May had a plan of attack for it that she formulated before the election, and it would have worked had she obtained the majority she thought she was going to get.

However, she didnt get that result and never adjusted her strategy accordingly. In a divided house, the only way to get something through is with a consensus. She should have made all parties responsible for achieving that consensus. Make the tory brexit supporters and the labour party commit to a strategy .... She didn't do that, and now she will suffer the consequences, and to be quite honest, she deserves all the flak she gets. However, no-one should be off the hook in this. This is our country's future, not a political point scoring opportunity. All our MP's should be held accountable for choosing their own self interests before considering the needs of the country.

[user104658]

same happens in every general election

and in every referendum

unless you know of any where lies, exaggeration and inflated bollox was not all pervading?

Not to the same extent or without the lies being able to be quickly and easily brushed aside as "one of many things said".

In this case, the public were given a binary referrendum;

Option A: Remain in the EU
Option B: Full Brexit

...where option B as it was described is logistically impossible. It's like someone came along and said "So would you like everything to stay the same and have plain old Heinz Tomato Soup, or would you like some unicorn soup that gives you magic powers?"... and some people were like "Ooooh unicorn soup, yes please!" and now everyone is saying "Oh sorry guys, turns out Unicorns don't exist, and the chef is dead anyway."

British Public:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2zi4vlu.jpg

[Crimson Dynamo]

Not to the same extent or without the lies being able to be quickly and easily brushed aside as "one of many things said".

In this case, the public were given a binary referrendum;

Option A: Remain in the EU
Option B: Full Brexit

...where option B as it was described is logistically impossible. It's like someone came along and said "So would you like everything to stay the same and have plain old Heinz Tomato Soup, or would you like some unicorn soup that gives you magic powers?"... and some people were like "Ooooh unicorn soup, yes please!" and now everyone is saying "Oh sorry guys, turns out Unicorns don't exist, and the chef is dead anyway."

British Public:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2zi4vlu.jpg

We all knew that no one had ever left the EU so no one could logically say they knew how it would go

[user104658]

We all knew that no one had ever left the EU so no one could logically say they knew how it would go

So you would agree then that starting the process without even trying to look into it was hilariously reckless?

[Crimson Dynamo]

So you would agree then that starting the process without even trying to look into it was hilariously reckless?

Dave Cameron took a gamble based on bog standard Tory euro squabbles and lost

then ran away

[user104658]

Dave Cameron took a gamble based on bog standard Tory euro squabbles and lost

then ran away

The danger of having multi-generational wealth with investments across the globe in charge of decisions like this, let's face it. It doesn't personally affect him if the country crumbles economically.

[Nicky91]

The danger of having multi-generational wealth with investments across the globe in charge of decisions like this, let's face it. It doesn't personally affect him if the country crumbles economically.

same for all those in parliament who want a ''no deal brexit''


the working class british people are going to be affected by this, it is truly pathetic that they don't give a damn about their own people but thinking about their own ego's first (like we are superior over the EU, don't care what our people think, just going out of the EU)

us dutch had a Nexit poll, we never did it through parliament at all, just the public vote, and a slight majority voted to remain here


bc it is the truth if you don't give the people an opinion in this, it feels like dictatorship

[Cherie]

There is no disputing that it has been an almighty mess, and I think May had a plan of attack for it that she formulated before the election, and it would have worked had she obtained the majority she thought she was going to get.

However, she didnt get that result and never adjusted her strategy accordingly. In a divided house, the only way to get something through is with a consensus. She should have made all parties responsible for achieving that consensus. Make the tory brexit supporters and the labour party commit to a strategy .... She didn't do that, and now she will suffer the consequences, and to be quite honest, she deserves all the flak she gets. However, no-one should be off the hook in this. This is our country's future, not a political point scoring opportunity. All our MP's should be held accountable for choosing their own self interests before considering the needs of the country.


Exactly, they are a disgrace

[user104658]

same for all those in parliament who want a ''no deal brexit''


the working class british people are going to be affected by this, it is truly pathetic that they don't give a damn about their own people but thinking about their own ego's first (like we are superior over the EU, don't care what our people think, just going out of the EU)

us dutch had a Nexit poll, we never did it through parliament at all, just the public vote, and a slight majority voted to remain here


bc it is the truth if you don't give the people an opinion in this, it feels like dictatorship

You are entirely correct Nicky, they all have the sort of wealth (and their wealth in forms other than the GB Pound) that means they can "afford to take the gamble", as if everything falls apart for a few years they can weather it. If systems like benefits, healthcare and public transport are damaged it doesn't matter to them. And if worst comes to absolute worst, they can retire comfortably anywhere in the world they want.

[Glenn.]

Poor Tezz. This is all she needs before right before Christmas

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2018/12/12/08/7321844-6486797-image-a-16_1544603965527.jpg

[user104658]

There's no point "blaming" Cameron now (well, there is, but not much point dwelling on it) as he's gone and doesn't give a ****. "This is all your fault, Cameron!" is an entirely moot statement as he's removed himself from the position to do anything about it.

[michael21]

Hope there have the vote next week and may loses and then we all get to vote as long as it not raining

[Zizu]

They can't have a second vote as it just makes a mockery out of everything..

Are we gonna keep having them until we get it 'right' :)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Withano]

Are we gonna keep having them until we get it 'right' :)


The alternative being not having one despite knowing we got it wrong?

[Zizu]

The alternative being not having one despite knowing we got it wrong?



Irrelevant.

We voted and got a result .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Withano]

Irrelevant.

We voted and got a result .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Its not really irrelevant to your original point in that it ‘would make a mockery of everything’. Going through with something that most people are against and most know to be wrong would make even more of a mockery of the situation.

[Zizu]

Its not really irrelevant to your original point in that it ‘would make a mockery of everything’. Going through with something that most people are against and most know to be wrong would make even more of a mockery of the situation.



Most people voted out ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Withano]

Most people voted out ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

And now, most people would vote in... to ignore them today based on what they wanted a couple years ago would make a mockery of the situation, which you were very against five posts ago.

[Nicky91]

And now, most people would vote in... to ignore them today based on what they wanted a couple years ago would make a mockery of the situation, which you were very against five posts ago.

true, to go out of the EU now when it could be likely that most would like to remain is quite rude to the remaining camp

[Zizu]

And now, most people would vote in... to ignore them today based on what they wanted a couple years ago would make a mockery of the situation, which you were very against five posts ago.



Surely we have to go with the majority as we're a democracy..

Maybe when we are out we can have another vote THEN ... if and when it's deemed necessary..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Cherie]

Surely we have to go with the majority as we're a democracy..

Maybe when we are out we can have another vote THEN ... if and when it's deemed necessary..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

When we are out we would have to reapply, accept the Euro, be in Schengen etc

The problem for me with the original vote is that alot of the people who it will affect the most were not engaged with the process therefore didnt vote, the misinformation and lies on both sides was also unacceptable and not condusive to a properly informed decision

[user104658]

When we are out we would have to reapply, accept the Euro, be in Schengen etc


This is a big part of the issue; a lot of people didn't realise that the UK *already* had special privileges when compared to other EU countries and could most likely have negotiated even more instead of having an in/out referendum. If we leave and it's a disaster, the EU will probably let the UK rejoin, but we'll have thrown all of those privileges away and would be unlikely to be allowed to keep the pound.

[Beso]

Not to the same extent or without the lies being able to be quickly and easily brushed aside as "one of many things said".

In this case, the public were given a binary referrendum;

Option A: Remain in the EU
Option B: Full Brexit

...where option B as it was described is logistically impossible. It's like someone came along and said "So would you like everything to stay the same and have plain old Heinz Tomato Soup, or would you like some unicorn soup that gives you magic powers?"... and some people were like "Ooooh unicorn soup, yes please!" and now everyone is saying "Oh sorry guys, turns out Unicorns don't exist, and the chef is dead anyway."

British Public:

http://i66.tinypic.com/2zi4vlu.jpg



I've been eating tomato soup all my life and I'm bored with it, and its metallic taste.

[Withano]

I've been eating tomato soup all my life and I'm bored with it, and its metallic taste.

Parmnion after he rereads TS’s soup metaphor and realises his part in the story

http://i66.tinypic.com/2zi4vlu.jpg

[Beso]

Parmnion after he rereads TS’s soup metaphor and realises his part in the story

http://i66.tinypic.com/2zi4vlu.jpg

Stop name dropping.

[michael21]

Cant wait for may to announce the second public vote the sooner the better

[Cherie]

I think May is being a bit pompous, why should the MPs only have the say on the deal she has made, put it back to the country, the MPs haven't got the balls to make a decision, too busy resigning and looking after themselves

[Crimson Dynamo]

so just why cant Nicola have a second referendum then?

[Greg!]

so just why cant Nicola have a second referendum then?

Bc the English are a bunch of HYPOCRITES my love that's why!

[Cherie]

so just why cant Nicola have a second referendum then?

Because the gap to remain was about 20 per cent and it was billed as a once in a lifetime job, and there were no lies as far as I can see during the campaign, the vote to go out of the EU could not be foreseen, as a leaver I would have thought you would be happy as Nicola would want to take you straight back in to the EU?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Because the gap to remain was about 20 per cent and it was billed as a once in a lifetime job, and there were no lies as far as I can see during the campaign, the vote to go out of the EU could not be foreseen, as a leaver I would have thought you would be happy as Nicola would want to take you straight back in to the EU?

:nono:

It was not billed as that, one person said it was that nd plenty others said other stuff

there were a mountain of lies from project fear, probably more than the EU one

It was a mere 11% gap

[user104658]

Because the gap to remain was about 20 per cent and it was billed as a once in a lifetime job, and there were no lies as far as I can see during the campaign, the vote to go out of the EU could not be foreseen, as a leaver I would have thought you would be happy as Nicola would want to take you straight back in to the EU?

:joker: The campaign was won on the basis of an entire document of promises for Scotland, very few of which have ever even been MENTIONED since, let alone delivered.

And let's not forget, Brexit isn't just a random consideration here - the "No" campaign in Scotland used EU membership as a reason that Scotland should stay in the UK, repeatedly insisting that Scotland's place in the EU was at risk if we went independent, and that the "only way to guarantee" continued access to the European market was to stick with the UK.

...and then a couple of years later they dragged us out of it. It's a joke.

[Cherie]

:joker: The campaign was won on the basis of an entire document of promises for Scotland, very few of which have ever even been MENTIONED since, let alone delivered.

And let's not forget, Brexit isn't just a random consideration here - the "No" campaign in Scotland used EU membership as a reason that Scotland should stay in the UK, repeatedly insisting that Scotland's place in the EU was at risk if we went independent, and that the "only way to guarantee" continued access to the European market was to stick with the UK.

...and then a couple of years later they dragged us out of it. It's a joke.

the Scottish leavers must be happy though, anyway I think most people would be happy for you guys to have a second vote, its just Nicola wanted it in the middle of this debacle, she just has to wait

[Nicky91]

1074358763757494273

ew

no deal brexit would turn UK into a dictatorship

[Niamh.]

:nono:

It was not billed as that, one person said it was that nd plenty others said other stuff

there were a mountain of lies from project fear, probably more than the EU one

It was a mere 11% gap

:joker: The campaign was won on the basis of an entire document of promises for Scotland, very few of which have ever even been MENTIONED since, let alone delivered.

And let's not forget, Brexit isn't just a random consideration here - the "No" campaign in Scotland used EU membership as a reason that Scotland should stay in the UK, repeatedly insisting that Scotland's place in the EU was at risk if we went independent, and that the "only way to guarantee" continued access to the European market was to stick with the UK.

...and then a couple of years later they dragged us out of it. It's a joke.

If there was another Referendum do you two really think it would go through this time? Have opinions changed up there with people you knew had previously voted to remain in the UK?

[Crimson Dynamo]

1074358763757494273

ew

no deal brexit would turn UK into a dictatorship

please can you explain to the thread what precisley you mean?

[Crimson Dynamo]

If there was another Referendum do you two really think it would go through this time? Have opinions changed up there with people you knew had previously voted to remain in the UK?

I think we have had quite enough of the toxic disgusting Westminster charades and would like top run out own affairs

[Nicky91]

please can you explain to the thread what precisley you mean?

i meant it like if they got so many signatures for that awful ''no deal brexit'' a second referendum isn't going to be there

denying all of the british people to choose for themselves what they want feels like a dictatorship


i'm pretty sure those many signatures came from Farage and his loyal pack of ''leave means leave'' followers

[MTVN]

Even Sturgeon isn't calling for a second Scottish referendum yet cos she knows they'd lose again

[Crimson Dynamo]

Even Sturgeon isn't calling for a second Scottish referendum yet cos she knows they'd lose again

incorrect she is letting TM and the awful English government do all the Adverting and Marketing she needs to win the next one :dance:

[user104658]

the Scottish leavers must be happy though

Well that doesn't matter because 60% voted remain and - as we know - the only thing that matters in a democracy is pleasing the majority, and everyone else can **** off. That's one of the founding principles of democracy.

[user104658]

If there was another Referendum do you two really think it would go through this time? Have opinions changed up there with people you knew had previously voted to remain in the UK?

I honestly don't know, but I do know that there's an overwhelming feeling up here that the Scottish parliament is both friendlier and more caring, AND more professional than the nonsense in Westminster. And that doesn't just apply to the current government; it's true of all parties, even the Scottish Conservatives. It's just a much more modern, level-headed and respectful political environment and people are sick to the back teeth of the London pantomime.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I honestly don't know, but I do know that there's an overwhelming feeling up here that the Scottish parliament is both friendlier and more caring, AND more professional than the nonsense in Westminster. And that doesn't just apply to the current government; it's true of all parties, even the Scottish Conservatives. It's just a much more modern, level-headed and respectful political environment and people are sick to the back teeth of the London pantomime.

bang on

[Tom4784]

I'm of the mindset that people are getting what they have voted for and they have to deal with it but if there's enough calls for another referendum then the government must listen. You can't call Brexit the will of the people and then ignore the people if they say they want another choice.

If the demand for a second referendum picks up enough steam then it must happen. I imagine the resistance to such a vote happening is mainly because the Brexit side knows they won't win again since they barely did so last time and then they admitted that everything they promised was bull****. The lies coupled with the reality we're faced with will likely see Brexit crushed in a second vote.

Either way, I'm not too fussed. If another vote doesn't go ahead then perhaps the grim prospect of a bad deal or no deal will teach people to be more prudent in how they vote in future.

[Marsh.]

I think we have had quite enough of the toxic disgusting Westminster charades and would like top run out own affairs

LT for King of Scotland. :clap1:

[Niamh.]

I honestly don't know, but I do know that there's an overwhelming feeling up here that the Scottish parliament is both friendlier and more caring, AND more professional than the nonsense in Westminster. And that doesn't just apply to the current government; it's true of all parties, even the Scottish Conservatives. It's just a much more modern, level-headed and respectful political environment and people are sick to the back teeth of the London pantomime.

I do have a bit of a morbid curiosity to see how it would all work out if you did vote out. I see people say Oh you couldn't survive without England etc but I don't see why that would be true, you're a similar size and population to us after all

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm of the mindset that people are getting what they have voted for and they have to deal with it but if there's enough calls for another referendum then the government must listen. You can't call Brexit the will of the people and then ignore the people if they say they want another choice.

If the demand for a second referendum picks up enough steam then it must happen. I imagine the resistance to such a vote happening is mainly because the Brexit side knows they won't win again since they barely did so last time and then they admitted that everything they promised was bull****. The lies coupled with the reality we're faced with will likely see Brexit crushed in a second vote.

Either way, I'm not too fussed. If another vote doesn't go ahead then perhaps the grim prospect of a bad deal or no deal will teach people to be more prudent in how they vote in future.

you seem to forget that the UK voted in Tony Blair who blatantly lied to the people and took the country into an illegal oil war that killed 100,000 people and he let in too many immigrants that was the fuel to the Brexit vote

So "people" dont get taught sh1t

[The Slim Reaper]

you seem to forget that the UK voted in Tony Blair who blatantly lied to the people and took the country into an illegal oil war that killed 100,000 people and he let in too many immigrants that was the fuel to the Brexit vote

So "people" dont get taught sh1t

So not sovereignty then? Orrrrrrr, to control our own destiny? Orrrrrrrrrrr, stop taking orders from Brussels? Or to invest in the NHS? Orrrrrrr...

[Crimson Dynamo]

So not sovereignty then? Orrrrrrr, to control our own destiny? Orrrrrrrrrrr, stop taking orders from Brussels? Or to invest in the NHS? Orrrrrrr...

no

if all the debates were to be analysed uncontrolled immigration seemed to be deservedly the biggest issue

[Cherie]

I do have a bit of a morbid curiosity to see how it would all work out if you did vote out. I see people say Oh you couldn't survive without England etc but I don't see why that would be true, you're a similar size and population to us after all

Were you guys bailed out by the UK not so long ago :think:

[Cherie]

no

if all the debates were to be analysed uncontrolled immigration seemed to be deservedly the biggest issue

the irony of that though is that more immigration comes from outside the EU and that is 'controlled'

[Crimson Dynamo]

oop

[Twosugars]

the irony of that though is that more immigration comes from outside the EU and that is 'controlled'
exactly

soon after the ref some leave politicians started admitting that brexit doesn't mean less immigration
pity all those buggers who voted leave thinking all "forreners" will **** off or stop coming :laugh:
get ready for me indians and chinese tho

[Cherie]

exactly

soon after the ref some leave politicians started admitting that brexit doesn't mean less immigration
pity all those buggers who voted leave thinking all "forreners" will **** off or stop coming :laugh:
get ready for me indians and chinese tho

and the even bigger irony is that people say we are afraid of brown people,when most of the EU immigrants are white :laugh:

[Niamh.]

Were you guys bailed out by the UK not so long ago :think:"You guys" tut tut

[Cherie]

"You guys" tut tut

Not tut tut, I pay my taxes here and I don't live in Ireland and haven't done for 20 years :nono:

[The Slim Reaper]

Not tut tut, I pay my taxes here and I don't live in Ireland and haven't done for 20 years :nono:

Welcome to the motherland.

[Niamh.]

Not tut tut, I pay my taxes here and I don't live in Ireland and haven't done for 20 years :nono:Awite Darlin'

[michael21]

May just making it up as she gose she dont want mp to vote and she dont want the public to vote

It about Time the queen step in to sort this mess out

[user104658]

c to vote

It about Time the queen step in to sort this mess out

Michael... even if the royals DID still have any real non-symbolic power... The Queen herself is quite blatantly not quite all there any more :umm2:.

[Cherie]

Awite Darlin'

:laugh: The UK has done more for me than Ireland ever did, all the Irish government in the main is export its citizens :idc:

[Cherie]

Welcome to the motherland.

I quite like it :hehe:

[user104658]

:laugh: The UK has done more for me than Ireland ever did, all the Irish government in the main is export its citizens :idc:

I think you may have Stockholm Syndrome, Cherie :worry:

[Cherie]

I think you may have Stockholm Syndrome, Cherie :worry:

It's the truth, unless you can tell me otherwise :hee: Alot of Irish people think immigrants are sitting under their their Irish flags, singing songs about British tyranny and waiting for the day we can return in box :laugh:

[Vanessa]

Yes, i think a second referendum is likely.

[user104658]

It's the truth, unless you can tell me otherwise :hee: Alot of Irish people think immigrants are sitting under their their Irish flags, singing songs about British tyranny and waiting for the day we can return in box :laugh:

I can't "tell" you anything but I would suggest that it's yourself / your loved ones / others who have actively influenced your life who have done things for you... and that in general it's a mistake to feel that a country you live in has "done things for you" and that you therefore "owe" that country gratitude / allegiance. At the end of the day, from the perspective of "the country", you're just a cog in their machine and it's in their best interests to keep you oiled. "The country" doesn't really care about you, and that's always worth keeping in mind.

[Cherie]

I can't "tell" you anything but I would suggest that it's yourself / your loved ones / others who have actively influenced your life who have done things for you... and that in general it's a mistake to feel that a country you live in has "done things for you" and that you therefore "owe" that country gratitude / allegiance. At the end of the day, from the perspective of "the country", you're just a cog in their machine and it's in their best interests to keep you oiled. "The country" doesn't really care about you, and that's always worth keeping in mind.

So as a starting point without a job and income it is impossible to move forward so in that respect this country has done more for me than if I had stayed put I never said the country cared about me any more than Ireland cares about me, but it has given me and my family a much better opportunity than we ever had in Ireland, of course it is up to me what I made of that opportunity but if it wasn't there is the first place....a chicken and egg scenario if you please.

I would say holding up Ireland as an example of how Scotland could survive on its own is pretty flawed given how many people it continues to export around the world

[The Slim Reaper]

My heart goes out to Cherie; after leaving the bomb making colony savages behind to build a new life as an asylum seeker, she's now as popular as the prime minister in this thread.

Stay strong Cherie.

[Cherie]

My heart goes out to Cherie; after leaving the bomb making colony savages behind to build a new life as an asylum seeker, she's now as popular as the prime minister in this thread.

Stay strong Cherie.

:joker:

I doff my hat every time the Queen comes on telly

[Niamh.]

It's the truth, unless you can tell me otherwise :hee: Alot of Irish people think immigrants are sitting under their their Irish flags, singing songs about British tyranny and waiting for the day we can return in box :laugh:

I doubt that very much Cherie, you're just being insulting now

[Niamh.]

So as a starting point without a job and income it is impossible to move forward so in that respect this country has done more for me than if I had stayed put I never said the country cared about me any more than Ireland cares about me, but it has given me and my family a much better opportunity than we ever had in Ireland, of course it is up to me what I made of that opportunity but if it wasn't there is the first place....a chicken and egg scenario if you please.

I would say holding up Ireland as an example of how Scotland could survive on its own is pretty flawed given how many people it continues to export around the world

People don't get "exported" these days Cherie, there's plenty of work here, has been for a longtime. I should know, I actually live here

[Niamh.]

So as a starting point without a job and income it is impossible to move forward so in that respect this country has done more for me than if I had stayed put I never said the country cared about me any more than Ireland cares about me, but it has given me and my family a much better opportunity than we ever had in Ireland, of course it is up to me what I made of that opportunity but if it wasn't there is the first place....a chicken and egg scenario if you please.

I would say holding up Ireland as an example of how Scotland could survive on its own is pretty flawed given how many people it continues to export around the world

People are doing just fine over here, tyvm, jesus, how long has it actually been since you were in Ireland, how ****ing rude

[Nicky91]

People are doing just fine over here, tyvm, jesus, how long has it actually been since you were in Ireland, how ****ing rude

yep, Republic of Ireland over Northern Ireland any time for me as my favourite Ireland honestly

[Ramsay]

Cherie you no good West Brit, get out of my sight.

[Crimson Dynamo]

yep, Republic of Ireland over Northern Ireland any time for me as my favourite Ireland honestly

why

[Nicky91]

why not instead of Brexit from EU, a UKxit (breaking up all countries) making Scotland, Wales, England, Northern Ireland independent countries

also justice for the own languages in scotland, northern ireland, wales

[Livia]

why not instead of Brexit from EU, a UKxit (breaking up all countries) making Scotland, Wales, England, Northern Ireland independent countries

also justice for the own languages in scotland, northern ireland, wales

Yes, let's go with this. Totally independent countries... that means no other country can rely on any other country for funding. I'd vote for that.

[Nicky91]

Yes, let's go with this. Totally independent countries... that means no other country can rely on any other country for funding. I'd vote for that.

cuz i was thinking like with brexit from EU you'd still have England as the majority party inside UK with the english language and london as capital which is in england so the other countries wales, scotland, northern ireland still won't have much independence

[Livia]

cuz i was thinking like with brexit from EU you'd still have England as the majority party inside UK with the english language and london as capital which is in england so the other countries wales, scotland, northern ireland still won't have much independence

England subsidises the other three countries. I'd give them all their independence.

[Cherie]

People don't get "exported" these days Cherie, there's plenty of work here, has been for a longtime. I should know, I actually live here

Why is there a mini Ireland in Australia then :think:

[Cherie]

Cherie you no good West Brit, get out of my sight.

I think that is the first time you have ever addressed me :joker: what a charmer you are

[Cherie]

People are doing just fine over here, tyvm, jesus, how long has it actually been since you were in Ireland, how ****ing rude

Its not rude, its facts, was Southern Ireland not bailed out in 2013, a mere 5 years ago? a yes or no will be fine

[Niamh.]

Whey is there a mini Ireland in Australia then :think:


Don't be silly there couldn't possibly be a mini Ireland in Australia, after all immigrants don't sit under their Irish flags, singing songs about British tyranny and wait for the day they can return in box.

Or people may just like travelling and working abroad as an experience. I did that when i was younger, I didn't have to but I wanted to see the world a bit :shrug:

[Niamh.]

Its not rude, its facts, was Southern Ireland not bailed out in 2013, a mere 5 years ago? a yes or no will be fine

Along with other countries sure, we're still a country and still thriving, a fantastic recovery we made

[Nicky91]

Why is there a mini Ireland in Australia then :think:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australia–Ireland_relations

bit of information on the relations between Australia and Ireland

[Niamh.]

Its not rude, its facts, was Southern Ireland not bailed out in 2013, a mere 5 years ago? a yes or no will be fine

Also, It's called the Republic of Ireland not "Southern Ireland" The most Northern part of Ireland is in the Republic

[Cherie]

Along with other countries sure, we're still a country and still thriving, a fantastic recovery we made

Not saying you are not thriving now, but it doesn't change the fact that the government ****ed up and it had to be bailed out

[Cherie]

Also, It's called the Republic of Ireland not "Southern Ireland" The most Northern part of Ireland is in the Republic

Bloody hell that's me told, that is what I have to say in the Post Office when I am sending cards :hmph:

[Niamh.]

Not saying you are not thriving now, but it doesn't change the fact that the government ****ed up and it had to be bailed out

There was a world wide recession Cherie, we weren't the only ones and it doesn't make your point valid, we have been doing well before and since then.

Bloody hell that's me told, that is what I have to say in the Post Office when I am sending cards :hmph:

You should correct them then :hee:

[Cherie]

There was a world wide recession Cherie, we weren't the only ones and it doesn't make your point valid, we have been doing well before and since then.



You should correct them then :hee:

It does make my point valid because plenty other smaller nations did not need bailouts ...

[Niamh.]

It does make my point valid because plenty other smaller nations did not need bailouts ...

And some larger countries did, so what? We're paying back everything we owe and then some. You'd swear no other country in the world ever borrowed money..........

[The Slim Reaper]

https://partridge.cloud/grabs/S01E05/gif/io0JoUs6qFo3.gif

[lime]

:laugh: The UK has done more for me than Ireland ever did, all the Irish government in the main is export its citizens :idc:

Wow cherie what type of madness is this..I migrated to Ireland and after the Polish ...the English are the highest number of migrants to Ireland..The Uk may ...and i have no reason to doubt you..have done more for you you and your family.

Ireland has done more for me and mine.

You are a migrant the same as me and many other FM's are decented from...Look around you Cherie whilst living in the UK...I'm sure you see many from different countries and continents...why insult Ireland and say thy "export" It's citizens?.If you have any remaining family here in Ireland you will know that they don't export their young...Jeez Cherie I can't believe that you haven't seen the heartbreack here in Ireland over family members having to leave...To describe as export ffs you would swear you were you talking about a cattle marcket.

"Export it's citizens"....very insulting.


I'm sure you don't mean it but t me it imply's that the Irish breed and when old enough ..they export...hope I'm wrong:sad:

[Cherie]

Wow cherie what type of madness is this..I migrated to Ireland and after the Polish ...the English are the highest number of migrants to Ireland..The Uk may ...and i have no reason to doubt you..have done more for you you and your family.

Ireland has done more for me and mine.

You are a migrant the same as me and many other FM's are decented from...Look around you Cherie whilst living in the UK...I'm sure you see many from different countries and continents...why insult Ireland and say thy "export" It's citizens?.If you have any remaining family here in Ireland you will know that they don't export their young...Jeez Cherie I can't believe that you haven't seen the heartbreack here in Ireland over family members having to leave...To describe as export ffs you would swear you were you talking about a cattle marcket.

"Export it's citizens"....very insulting.


I'm sure you don't mean it but t me it imply's that the Irish breed and when old enough ..they export...hope I'm wrong:sad:


Lime, you only have to look at the long history of Irish immigration to see where I am coming from, successive Irish government have let young Irish people down for years, yes it might be all fine and dandy now but you don't have to look very far back in history to see a different story. I am sorry if you took offence at the word export but that is exactly what happened back for decades, you were educated in Ireland but there no jobs so you had to leave, if you look at the point I was making it was in response to Niamh holding up Ireland as an example of how Scotland would thrive on its own, I was pointing out that while that might the case now, it doesn't take much to destablise an economy, my point being that you cannot hold up Ireland as a model for a glowing economy that others should aspire to. I never mentioned anything about breeding you made that up in your own head

[joeysteele]

I think another referendum is the only way forward if this daft deluded PMs deal is thrown out by Parliament.

Unless the DUP get really furious with the Cons. they won't help a general election come about.

Although the thought of another referendum disappoints me, it does seem at present, the only way to try to resolve this mess.
As we have a PM who hasn't the ability to reach out and work with Parliament at all.

On the Irish issue.
All my family on my Mum's side were and are Irish.
My Mum now lives in the Republic of Ireland, both my Mum does and my Grandparents when they were alive, all called Ireland, the Republic of Ireland.

Even as to football, it is the Republic of Ireland football team not Southern Ireland one.
So Niamh is dead right totally as to that.

I think too the Republic of Ireland is a far more forward looking and thinking Nation than England for sure.

[Cherie]

I think another referendum is the only way forward if this daft deluded PMs deal is thrown out by Parliament.

Unless the DUP get really furious with the Cons. they won't help a general election come about.

Although the thought of another referendum disappoints me, it does seem at present, the only way to try to resolve this mess.
As we have a PM who hasn't the ability to reach out and work with Parliament at all.

On the Irish issue.
All my family on my Mum's side were and are Irish.
My Mum now lives in the Republic of Ireland, both my Mum does and my Grandparents when they were alive, all called Ireland, the Republic of Ireland.

Even as to football, it is the Republic of Ireland football team not Southern Ireland one.
So Niamh is dead right totally as to that.

I think too the Republic of Ireland is a far more forward looking and thinking Nation than England for sure.

People do still refer to the North and the South of Ireland, it's not an obsolete term

[lime]

Lime, you only have to look at the long history of Irish immigration to see where I am coming from, successive Irish government have let young Irish people down for years, yes it might be all fine and dandy now but you don't have to look very far back in history to see a different story. I am sorry if you took offence at the word export but that is exactly what happened back for decades, you were educated in Ireland but there no jobs so you had to leave, if you look at the point I was making it was in response to Niamh holding up Ireland as an example of how Scotland would thrive on its own, I was pointing out that while that might the case now, it doesn't take much to destablise an economy, my point being that you cannot hold up Ireland as a model for a glowing economy that others should aspire to. I never mentioned anything about breeding you made that up in your own head

Oh i see where you are coming from Cherie..and it is a British attidue to Ireland..I am happy for you as an Irish person ...you feel more British.


Sure why would I complain when I feel more Irish than South African.


I do take offence of you talking about the Irish "exportiong" their citizens ..But sure that's grand as long as the British do the same ..but they are called ex pats.


i do feel i have to ask ...Do you know anything about you own history?

Far from popular believe ...the Irish goverment are standing strong for Ireland...A steady ship is needed to ride these waves.


Ireland is not a utophia ..but it is grown up enough to know to put country first...
Wish your land of paradise would do the same

[The Slim Reaper]

I heard it was Cherie who banished all the snakes.

[user104658]

I heard it was Cherie who banished all the snakes.I'm pretty sure that was Dezzy...

[user104658]

Oh wait, BANISHED, sorry...

[Beso]

Oh i see where you are coming from Cherie..and it is a British attidue to Ireland..I am happy for you as an Irish person ...you feel more British.


Sure why would I complain when I feel more Irish than South African.


I do take offence of you talking about the Irish "exportiong" their citizens ..But sure that's grand as long as the British do the same ..but they are called ex pats.


i do feel i have to ask ...Do you know anything about you own history?

Far from popular believe ...the Irish goverment are standing strong for Ireland...A steady ship is needed to ride these waves.


Ireland is not a utophia ..but it is grown up enough to know to put country first...
Wish your land of paradise would do the same



This vote was all about this lands people putting the country first fgs...jeez..

[The Slim Reaper]

This vote was all about this lands people putting the country first fgs...jeez..

Please explain how Brexit has done that.

[lime]

This vote was all about this lands people putting the country first fgs...jeez..
put your land first ....make no mistake Ireland will put Ireland first

[Beso]

Please explain how Brexit has done that.

I will when it happens.

[Cherie]

Oh i see where you are coming from Cherie..and it is a British attidue to Ireland..I am happy for you as an Irish person ...you feel more British.


Sure why would I complain when I feel more Irish than South African.


I do take offence of you talking about the Irish "exportiong" their citizens ..But sure that's grand as long as the British do the same ..but they are called ex pats.


i do feel i have to ask ...Do you know anything about you own history?

Far from popular believe ...the Irish goverment are standing strong for Ireland...A steady ship is needed to ride these waves.


Ireland is not a utophia ..but it is grown up enough to know to put country first...
Wish your land of paradise would do the same

First and foremore I never said I felt more British, I am 100 per cent Irish and very proud to be tyvm, its nice for you that you feel more Irish though and I dont have any issue with that at all each to their own, there is no hard and fast rule of what you have do do and feel as an immigrant

What I did say was that I had more opportunity in the UK than I ever did in Ireland, and I stand by that as it is my experience.

I don't know what you mean by Ireland puts its country first, I am sure it does, but if the UK does that everyone in it is racist ... so it is nice for you that the Irish government can do that without censure

With regard to your comment about Irish history, please don't patronise me I sat through enough history lessons to know enough, do you know anything about the economy would be a more fitting question, drive through any of the new wonderful motorways in Ireland and you will see that they proudly claim they were funded or part funded by the EU, so far from being able to stand alone they are very ably propped by Europe in some areas

[Cherie]

I heard it was Cherie who banished all the snakes.

Oh wait, BANISHED, sorry...

:joker:

[lime]

People do still refer to the North and the South of Ireland, it's not an obsolete term

It may not be obsolete ...but even I as a plastic paddyI know to refer to Repuplicans as those from the South is more than insulting..

Jeez Cherie ..where did you learn your history?

Do folk still refer when it comes to ROI as Southerens ....true ...but by and large they are folk who are offended by the Irish winning their Independance

[Withano]

This vote was all about this lands people putting the country first fgs...jeez..

:joker:

[Cherie]

It may not be obsolete ...but even I as a plastic paddyI know to refer to Repuplicans as those from the South is more than insulting..

Jeez Cherie ..where did you learn your history?

Do folk still refer when it comes to ROI as Southerens ....true ...but by and large they are folk who are offended by the Irish winning their Independance

I learned it in an Irish classroom, where did you learn about economics? I never knew calling the South, the South was insulting, did you just make that up?

[The Slim Reaper]

I will when it happens.

The folly of people who voted for Brexit but have no idea what it actually means, other than sticking it to the foreigners, and the fear to admit you have no clue.

[lime]

I learned it in an Irish classroom, where did you learn about economics? I never knew calling the South, the South was insulting, did you just make that up?

oh come on Cherie...are you really trying to tell me that growing up in ROI...that been callled someone Southern Irish isnT insulting?..they are irish full stop



As regards to where I learned economicis ...well thats just common sense.

But sure that's okay as long as you believe that leo and the rest of us is the eneemy...


Rule Bittania

[Beso]

The folly of people who voted for Brexit but have no idea what it actually means, other than sticking it to the foreigners, and the fear to admit you have no clue.

Random post....


But you are the one claiming that brexit has happened and it's all ****....


Well it's no happened yet pal, and nobody can tell if it's going to be **** or not...but you keep labelling people into the racist pot or intoletarable to foreigners pot.....


Because as we all know, that's all people voted leave for....:nono:....idiot.

[user104658]

Random post....


But you are the one claiming that brexit has happened and it's all ****....


Well it's no happened yet pal, and nobody can tell if it's going to be **** or not...but you keep labelling people into the racist pot or intoletarable to foreigners pot.....


Because as we all know, that's all people voted leave for....:nono:....idiot.

It has already done significant economic damage...

[The Slim Reaper]

Random post....


But you are the one claiming that brexit has happened and it's all ****....


Well it's no happened yet pal, and nobody can tell if it's going to be **** or not...but you keep labelling people into the racist pot or intoletarable to foreigners pot.....


Because as we all know, that's all people voted leave for....:nono:....idiot.

So enlighten me. You hate being labelled these things so tell me why you voted for brexit. Other than immigration, what laws or agreements do you think we can make post-brexit that couldn't be made if we'd stayed?

Surprise me and tell of which injustices we will be able to correct, or which area of trade we can take advantage of. I've actually been a lot kinder towards brexiters than they generally deserve, because people avoid answering why and what they voted for, like you've just done, because deep down you know the answer, and you know it sounds ugly.

[Beso]

It has already done significant economic damage...

I'm looking in my pocket......nope...no difference there.:shrug:

And let's face it, it will be the exact same for me and you when it happens...we will still have a pound in our pocket.

[Beso]

So enlighten me. You hate being labelled these things so tell me why you voted for brexit. Other than immigration, what laws or agreements do you think we can make post-brexit that couldn't be made if we'd stayed?

Surprise me and tell of which injustices we will be able to correct, or which area of trade we can take advantage of. I've actually been a lot kinder towards brexiters than they generally deserve, because people avoid answering why and what they voted for, like you've just done, because deep down you know the answer, and you know it sounds ugly.

I voted brexit for the bants....I can't stand lefties and most of them wanted to stay....not me though...I know it ain't going to make the slightest bit of difference to what I do each month with my wages, so I voted leave cause I hate lefties.

And for you, and the rest of the forum....down here in Essex where I live and work...guess what..my closest m8s are immigrants..great blokes so they are.

So for me, the immigration issue didn't even cross my mind...but again..you carry on assuming and labelling and shoving people in boxes like the good robotic citizens they are...don't dare let anyone be individual...no.....

Just shove them all in one box because they must all be the same....a bit like what some old **** might have said about the immigrants in the 70s..


You remainers do make me laugh though.:wavey:

[The Slim Reaper]

I voted brexit for the bants....I can't stand lefties and most of them wanted to stay....not me though...I know it ain't going to make the slightest bit of difference to what I do each month with my wages, so I voted leave cause I hate lefties.

And for you, and the rest of the forum....down here in Essex where I live and work...guess what..my closest m8s are immigrants..great blokes so they are.

So for me, the immigration issue didn't even cross my mind...but again..you carry on assuming and labelling and shoving people in boxes like the good robotic citizens they are...don't dare let anyone be individual...no.....

Just shove them all in one box because they must all be the same....a bit like what some old **** might have said about the immigrants in the 70s..


You remainers do make me laugh though.:wavey:

Tell me you didn't hit me with the "some of my best friends..." card?

I take it all back, you obviously had strong opposition to some obscure European agreement that affected bird migrations.

[user104658]

So enlighten me. You hate being labelled these things so tell me why you voted for brexit. Other than immigration, what laws or agreements do you think we can make post-brexit that couldn't be made if we'd stayed?

Surprise me and tell of which injustices we will be able to correct, or which area of trade we can take advantage of. I've actually been a lot kinder towards brexiters than they generally deserve, because people avoid answering why and what they voted for, like you've just done, because deep down you know the answer, and you know it sounds ugly.

To be fair, there are a couple who believed the Leave campaign lie that the money we pay into the EU pot just evaporates and could be spent here in the UK on things like the NHS. I think MOST of those hopefully now realise that there will be no "extra money" at all for the NHS. Or anything else. And all we've actually done is significantly and permanently devalue the GBP.

[user104658]

I'm looking in my pocket......nope...no difference there.:shrug:

And let's face it, it will be the exact same for me and you when it happens...we will still have a pound in our pocket.

You're simply wrong here Parm, yes we're being paid the same as ever but products are already increasing in price which means real-terms year on year pay cut since the vote. That's going to get worse. Just because you haven't noticed a difference doesn't mean it isn't there; for me personally, our weekly household shopping has increased by about 20%.

Like I said earlier, because we've been comfortable in the UK for a long time, we believe that we can't fall into serious economic problems. We can, just like many other first-world countries have in the past. Maybe you'll notice when your £1 loaf of bread costs £2? Maybe not.

[Cherie]

oh come on Cherie...are you really trying to tell me that growing up in ROI...that been callled someone Southern Irish isnT insulting?..they are irish full stop



As regards to where I learned economicis ...well thats just common sense.

But sure that's okay as long as you believe that leo and the rest of us is the eneemy...





Rule Bittania


Can you point out where on this thread I ever said anything of the sort, you seem very keen to paint me as anti Irish because I had the temerity to take off the rose tinted spectacles when talking about Irish economics, its okay for you to love your adopted home but I am not allowed to love mine because of past history that took place in a time when neither of us were born, it is possible to like where you live and like where you came from you know, I am sure you wouldn't be very happy is emigrants into Ireland said they hated living there but that is another story ... this debate started off because Ireland was held up a shining example of economic bliss which Scotland when it gets its independence should aspire to

Seeing at Economics is so simple maybe you can explain why the HSE in Ireland are recruiting nursing staff from abroad while they are happy to lose the graduates that were educated in the country because they wont increase their pay and conditions? so all that education and training is lost to another country.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/more-than-75-of-student-nurses-and-midwives-may-emigrate-1.3061034

the other thing the irks me greatly is during the boom Celtic tiger years not one new hospital was built, did you know that residents in Donegal have to travel to Galway Hospital for some operations and chemotherapy, living in the Dublin bubble I doubt this will affect you as you are well serviced by local hospitals, it isn't quite the same everywhere

[Beso]

You're simply wrong here Parm, yes we're being paid the same as ever but products are already increasing in price which means real-terms year on year pay cut since the vote. That's going to get worse. Just because you haven't noticed a difference doesn't mean it isn't there; for me personally, our weekly household shopping has increased by about 20%.

Like I said earlier, because we've been comfortable in the UK for a long time, we believe that we can't fall into serious economic problems. We can, just like many other first-world countries have in the past. Maybe you'll notice when your £1 loaf of bread costs £2? Maybe not.



So why is it the fault of us leaving the EU that has made your weekly shopping rise by 20%

We are still in the EU at the moment...so how on earth can you blame the increase on us not being in the EU?

Ah don't get it!!

[user104658]

So why is it the fault of us leaving the EU that has made your weekly shopping rise by 20%

We are still in the EU at the moment...so how on earth can you blame the increase on us not being in the EU?

Ah don't get it!!Because as simply as I can put it... "money" doesn't exist. In the modern world, those numbers and pieces of paper don't represent any physical product. It's an illusion that functions by agreement; a pound (or dollar, or euro) is worth something because everyone agrees that it's worth something, and thus, the whole thing is essentially based on market confidence and so, fluctuates like the stock market. Nothing needs to actually HAPPEN to devalue the pound. Its value drops every time there's an announcement that decreases global trust in the British economy. The value dropped when the referendum was announced. It dropped when the result was announced. It creeps up a little when we look close to securing a deal that allows free trade with the EU to continue - and then drops again the closer we get to a "no deal" Brexit. If we actually END UP WITH a no deal Brexit, it's likely to crash very badly.

Why that matters in terms of what your shopping costs, is that we rely heavily on international trade. We have to, as a geographically small, highly populated country. So the less the pound is worth globally vs other currencies, the more it costs to import. The global price doesn't change, but it costs more in GBP, because the GBP is weaker. So products manufactured abroad become more expensive, fuel becomes more expensive (which affects absolutely everything), certain raw materials used for what manufacturing does occur in the UK become more expensive...

We're a small island with a large population and we aren't and cannot be self sufficient. Free trade, or as close to it as possible, with our closest neighbours is essential in maintaining the absolute basics. Putting all other reasons for voting for Brexit aside... Leaving the European Market is a disaster.

[Beso]

Isn't the price of oil decreasing?...

I'm sure it's down to 45 a barrel from 50...and experts predicting it will hit the 40 mark soon.

[user104658]

Isn't the price of oil decreasing?...

I'm sure it's down to 45 a barrel from 50...and experts predicting it will hit the 40 mark soon.The price of oil globally is constantly fluctuating, but that's for everyone. The pound being weak still means that it costs more for us relative to other currencies.

[lime]

Can you point out where on this thread I ever said anything of the sort, you seem very keen to paint me as anti Irish because I had the temerity to take off the rose tinted spectacles when talking about Irish economics, its okay for you to love your adopted home but I am not allowed to love mine because of past history that took place in a time when neither of us were born, it is possible to like where you live and like where you came from you know, I am sure you wouldn't be very happy is emigrants into Ireland said they hated living there but that is another story ... this debate started off because Ireland was held up a shining example of economic bliss which Scotland when it gets its independence should aspire to

Seeing at Economics is so simple maybe you can explain why the HSE in Ireland are recruiting nursing staff from abroad while they are happy to lose the graduates that were educated in the country because they wont increase their pay and conditions? so all that education and training is lost to another country.....

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/health/more-than-75-of-student-nurses-and-midwives-may-emigrate-1.3061034

the other thing the irks me greatly is during the boom Celtic tiger years not one new hospital was built, did you know that residents in Donegal have to travel to Galway Hospital for some operations and chemotherapy, living in the Dublin bubble I doubt this will affect you as you are well serviced by local hospitals, it isn't quite the same everywhere
i have no tinted glasses...i hate to repeat myself..but I will for you.
Ireland has many problems with housing and heath care ..much like the UK...i am not keen to paint you as anti Irish..when you talk about the Irish. and say they export their citizens thats more than insulting...your words not mine.

Cherie I have a last bit of shopping to do,,,would love to talk to you more on this tropic

[Cherie]

Because as simply as I can put it... "money" doesn't exist. In the modern world, those numbers and pieces of paper don't represent any physical product. It's an illusion that functions by agreement; a pound (or dollar, or euro) is worth something because everyone agrees that it's worth something, and thus, the whole thing is essentially based on market confidence and so, fluctuates like the stock market. Nothing needs to actually HAPPEN to devalue the pound. Its value drops every time there's an announcement that decreases global trust in the British economy. The value dropped when the referendum was announced. It dropped when the result was announced. It creeps up a little when we look close to securing a deal that allows free trade with the EU to continue - and then drops again the closer we get to a "no deal" Brexit. If we actually END UP WITH a no deal Brexit, it's likely to crash very badly.

Why that matters in terms of what your shopping costs, is that we rely heavily on international trade. We have to, as a geographically small, highly populated country. So the less the pound is worth globally vs other currencies, the more it costs to import. The global price doesn't change, but it costs more in GBP, because the GBP is weaker. So products manufactured abroad become more expensive, fuel becomes more expensive (which affects absolutely everything), certain raw materials used for what manufacturing does occur in the UK become more expensive...

We're a small island with a large population and we aren't and cannot be self sufficient. Free trade, or as close to it as possible, with our closest neighbours is essential in maintaining the absolute basics. Putting all other reasons for voting for Brexit aside... Leaving the European Market is a disaster.

See this is where I can't connect those in favour of voting for independence for Scotland who now have an issue with leavers wanting independence from Europe, its more or less the same thing, Scottish independence could have heaped the same problems with exiting the EU as the leave voters will, and there was no guarantee you would have been welcomed back in to the EU and even if you were it wouldn't have happened very quickly, so you would have had to strike your own trade deals so I don't see a huge difference in the two votes :shrug:

[Cherie]

i have no tinted glasses...i hate to repeat myself..but I will for you.
Ireland has many problems with housing and heath care ..much like the UK...i am not keen to paint you as anti Irish..when you talk about the Irish. and say they export their citizens thats more than insulting...your words not mine.

Cherie I have a last bit of shopping to do,,,would love to talk to you more on this tropic

I have just given you a link which proves my point :shrug: My other bug bear is the Irish Rail service, it hasn't moved forward in 35 years, I took a short journey a few years back and I would have been just as quick in my car, no cut in journey time from Tralee to Dublin it takes just as long as when I was 10. Yet the government found the cash to install useless water meters in every home which now lie unused as residents quite rightly told them to take a hike :laugh:

Anyway Merry Christmas!

[user104658]

Seeing at Economics is so simple maybe you can explain why the HSE in Ireland are recruiting nursing staff from abroad while they are happy to lose the graduates that were educated in the country because they wont increase their pay and conditions? so all that education and training is lost to another country.....

I'm not sure how this can be relevant to your argument Cherie... as exactly the same thing has been happening in the NHS for decades.

[Cherie]

I'm not sure how this can be relevant to your argument Cherie... as exactly the same thing has been happening in the NHS for decades.

What has this got to do with the NHS? please reread the thread as we are talking about the Irish economy and immigration which Im told isn’t happening any more and that the Scots should take heart from Ireland standing alone economically, a better model for you guys to aspire to would be Norway imo

[Cherie]

See this is where I can't connect those in favour of voting for independence for Scotland who now have an issue with leavers wanting independence from Europe, its more or less the same thing, Scottish independence could have heaped the same problems with exiting the EU as the leave voters will, and there was no guarantee you would have been welcomed back in to the EU and even if you were it wouldn't have happened very quickly, so you would have had to strike your own trade deals so I don't see a huge difference in the two votes :shrug:

and in addition to the above would you not have buggered up anyone from the EU living in Scotland as well, given you would no longer have been part of the EU, does that make the vote for independance group racist?

[user104658]

What has this got to do with the NHS? please reread the thread as we are talking about the Irish economy and immigration which Im told isn’t happening any more and that the Scots should take heart from Ireland standing alone economically, a better model for you guys to aspire to would be Norway imo

You were using the fact that nurses train in Ireland and then go elsewhere due to poor conditions and pay in Ireland, and import nurses from elsewhere, as an example of poor Irish economics... and have been adamant that "things are better" in the UK.

I was pointing out that the UK has been "exporting its nurses" after training - and filling the gap with nurses from abroad - for decades.

It seems quite relevant?

[user104658]

and in addition to the above would you not have buggered up anyone from the EU living in Scotland as well, given you would no longer have been part of the EU, does that make the vote for independance group racist?

No because controlling the borders was never part of the Scottish independence agenda... and there was never any question of not allowing EU residents to remain in the country (nor was there a question mark over whether or not we would welcome more). In fact, the Scottish independence white paper encouraged more EU immigration.

Yes, there was a risk of losing full EU membership if Scotland had voted yes, although in my opinion, not a huge or realistic one. The EU wants as many member nations as possible and would be VERY unlikely to reject quick membership from a country that already was in line with all of the laws and regulations required for membership (which is the biggest barrier to membership). The myth promoted by the "No" camp was that EU membership consideration is on a "first come, first served" basis, when it is not. The only major complaint was the Catalonia issue and Spain and that was mostly hot air.

Either way, even if Scotland hadn't been granted full membership, it could simply have been an "EU mirror" like Norway or Iceland and thus have stayed in the single market until securing full membership.

It's easy to assume that the Scottish independence issue and Brexit are similar in nature but they're just not if you have any real knowledge of them. Scottish independence is about full local self-determination as part of a larger economic group (the EU). It's not about isolationism or controlling the borders, like Brexit. Quite the opposite, in fact.

[Twosugars]

Mess, I was reading the Private Eye last night (after 6 months of avoiding politics) and they say the Daily Mail has been critical of brexit since they changed chief editor in September. :hehe:
Anybody can confirm that?

[user104658]

Mess, I was reading the Private Eye last night (after 6 months of avoiding politics) and they say the Daily Mail has been critical of brexit since they changed chief editor in September. :hehe:
Anybody can confirm that?

The DM will be critical of Brexit if there's an indication that public opinion has shifted to be critical of Brexit, IMO. Vultures and popularists, catering to whatever the tooth-gnashing of the week dictates. Public are mad about Corbyn? CORBYN STORIES! Public mad about immigration? YAY BREXIT BOO FOREIGNERS! Oh wait, the public is worried about Brexit now? BOO BREXIT DOOM AND GLOOM!

[Twosugars]

Oh I know they're opprotunistic liars. But the fact remains they're the most widely read paper, especially amongst the older demographic. So in that respect very influential.

[bots]

No because controlling the borders was never part of the Scottish independence agenda... and there was never any question of not allowing EU residents to remain in the country (nor was there a question mark over whether or not we would welcome more). In fact, the Scottish independence white paper encouraged more EU immigration.

Yes, there was a risk of losing full EU membership if Scotland had voted yes, although in my opinion, not a huge or realistic one. The EU wants as many member nations as possible and would be VERY unlikely to reject quick membership from a country that already was in line with all of the laws and regulations required for membership (which is the biggest barrier to membership). The myth promoted by the "No" camp was that EU membership consideration is on a "first come, first served" basis, when it is not. The only major complaint was the Catalonia issue and Spain and that was mostly hot air.

Either way, even if Scotland hadn't been granted full membership, it could simply have been an "EU mirror" like Norway or Iceland and thus have stayed in the single market until securing full membership.

It's easy to assume that the Scottish independence issue and Brexit are similar in nature but they're just not if you have any real knowledge of them. Scottish independence is about full local self-determination as part of a larger economic group (the EU). It's not about isolationism or controlling the borders, like Brexit. Quite the opposite, in fact.

that's not true though, Scotland wanted its own Scottish pound currency which would never have been accepted and was never considered valid outside of la la land. Also, the only thing that gave Scotland a fighting chance of being a viable independent entity was its oil revenue which was always pie in the sky and has since tanked. So Scotland independence ... good luck with that.

[Cherie]

You were using the fact that nurses train in Ireland and then go elsewhere due to poor conditions and pay in Ireland, and import nurses from elsewhere, as an example of poor Irish economics... and have been adamant that "things are better" in the UK.

I was pointing out that the UK has been "exporting its nurses" after training - and filling the gap with nurses from abroad - for decades.

It seems quite relevant?

No it is not relevant as I never held up England as an example of an economy that Scotland could aspire to also I never said things were better in the UK, I said I personally had more opportunity in the UK.....Lime said that Ireland looks after its own, well if looking after your own is training them up and then offering poor pay and conditions so you go elsewhere while they can get cheaper labour from abroad, that is hardly looking after your own and just in case you are in any doubt I never said England looks after its own either because I am sure that is the next thing you will attribute to me....

[Cherie]

No because controlling the borders was never part of the Scottish independence agenda... and there was never any question of not allowing EU residents to remain in the country (nor was there a question mark over whether or not we would welcome more). In fact, the Scottish independence white paper encouraged more EU immigration.

Yes, there was a risk of losing full EU membership if Scotland had voted yes, although in my opinion, not a huge or realistic one. The EU wants as many member nations as possible and would be VERY unlikely to reject quick membership from a country that already was in line with all of the laws and regulations required for membership (which is the biggest barrier to membership). The myth promoted by the "No" camp was that EU membership consideration is on a "first come, first served" basis, when it is not. The only major complaint was the Catalonia issue and Spain and that was mostly hot air.

Either way, even if Scotland hadn't been granted full membership, it could simply have been an "EU mirror" like Norway or Iceland and thus have stayed in the single market until securing full membership.

It's easy to assume that the Scottish independence issue and Brexit are similar in nature but they're just not if you have any real knowledge of them. Scottish independence is about full local self-determination as part of a larger economic group (the EU). It's not about isolationism or controlling the borders, like Brexit. Quite the opposite, in fact.

You would still have been outside the EU though, as you would have to be accepted back in and that wouldn't have happened overnight ...if at all so basically you were quite happy to risk it get independence so no different from Brexit in many ways

[Rectu]

I am not sure that main opinion will change... Probably more amount of people will vote in general but mostly will be for Brexit as it was before. I know a couple of Brits who 3 years ago decided to buy property in Italy https://tranio.com/italy/ and now are living there. So in the first vote they voted "for Brexit" not understand full problems it will bring to them. Because now they will have to visit police every 3 months for their residence papers when before the vote once per year only.

[Niamh.]

What has this got to do with the NHS? please reread the thread as we are talking about the Irish economy and immigration which Im told isn’t happening any more and that the Scots should take heart from Ireland standing alone economically, a better model for you guys to aspire to would be Norway imoOh Cherie ffs, I live in Ireland which is why I said I was curious to see how they would do in a similar size country, you've really misrepresented what my original comment was, acting like I said we were perfect or something.

[Cherie]

Oh I know they're opprotunistic liars. But the fact remains they're the most widely read paper, especially amongst the older demographic. So in that respect very influential.

The Sunday Mail was always anti Brexit, the DM was pro, not sure what it is now

[Cherie]

Oh Cherie ffs, I live in Ireland which is why I said I was curious to see how they would do in a similar size country, you've really misrepresented what my original comment was, acting like I said we were perfect or something.

Yes it is a similar size country but that would be all that Ireland and Scotland would have in common as ROI would still be in the EU and Scotland wouldn't, I was just pointing out some economic facts and got all sorts thrown at me for my trouble :laugh: anti Irish indeed :idc:

[themiz]

What a utter mess.

[joeysteele]

I think another vote is more likely but isn't likely to solve anything.
I'd vote and still vote to remain if that was on the ballot, rejecting both May's deal and no deal myself.

I can see it being insisted that remain is on the ballot paper.
I then can see an outcome where a 20%+ figure comes for May's deal.
Higher 30s for no deal, with near a similar figure for remain.

The awful division and hostility that surfaced from the last vote gaining new momentum after a second vote.

If Parliament is near deadlocked, for me a general election would be preferable with an extension of article 50.
It would leave the Cons either advocating no deal or Mrs May's.

Labour and Corbyn would be forced too, to then detail a more clear plan.
I think Corbyn could find himself trapped with a Party demanding remain.

So then see what the arithmetic of Parliament is after such an election.
Some seats always change hands, even a move of around 25 seats could alter things considerably.

A second referendum for me is likely all that will come about, recalling the abuse I got and what I saw others get canvassing in the 2016 referendum.
Doesn't however give me an appetite for another .