What was the real motivation behind Donald Tusk's provocative outburst?

[Crimson Dynamo]

https://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/nodeimage/public/blogs_2019/02/gettyimages-936608602.jpg?itok=N_IfXLdX

Donald Tusk, the EU Council president, looked to be carrying the burdens of the world
when he gave his latest news conference about Brexit in Brussels.

His melancholy might account for his distinctly undemocratic outburst on the eve of
crucial talks aimed at avoiding a no-deal withdrawal from the bloc. Mr Tusk said
there was a “special place in hell” reserved for those who had promoted Brexit
without a plan to implement it safely.

Yet this was no off-the-cuff remark by a wearied Eurocrat dreading another encounter
with Theresa May, but what appears to have been a deliberately provocative statement
intended to isolate Brexiteers in Britain, who are seen by Brussels as the main
obstacle to a deal. To this extent, Mr Tusk is right – the Government has not
been able so far to articulate a means of leaving the EU that can command a majority in Parliament.

https://i.imgur.com/qmTRTBng.jpg

Article 50, inserted into the Lisbon Treaty ostensibly to facilitate a member state’s
exit in an amicable way, to the mutual benefit of both sides, turns out to be a sham
intended either to prevent departure or to bring it about almost entirely on terms dictated by Brussels.

One theory is that the Commission is in a panic because it detects cracks appearing
among the 27 over the EU’s negotiating stance. Both Mr Tusk and Jean-Claude Juncker,
the Commission president, reasserted that Mrs May would be offered nothing new when she travels to Brussels today.

If she hopes to hear that they are ready to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement text to
accommodate changes to the Irish backstop then she is likely to be disappointed.

The EU’s tactics appear to be to give nothing away and see what happens when the
matter returns to the Commons next week. But with less than two months to the UK’s
departure, the phoney frustrations of Mr Tusk may backfire by making a no-deal Brexit
the only option left. Is that what the EU wants? If that happens then Mr Tusk will have every cause to be despondent.

That may well be a failure of governance, but not of democracy. What Mr Tusk’s
sneering remark betrayed was the utter contempt for the expressed views of
British voters in the 2016 referendum. The implication of what he said is
that no country can ever leave the EU in an orderly way, nor should voters
be asked a question that has a difficult or uncertain answer.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2019/02/06/real-motivation-behind-donald-tusks-provocative-outburst/

[Cherie]

https://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/styles/nodeimage/public/blogs_2019/02/gettyimages-936608602.jpg?itok=N_IfXLdX

Donald Tusk, the EU Council president, looked to be carrying the burdens of the world
when he gave his latest news conference about Brexit in Brussels.

His melancholy might account for his distinctly undemocratic outburst on the eve of
crucial talks aimed at avoiding a no-deal withdrawal from the bloc. Mr Tusk said
there was a “special place in hell” reserved for those who had promoted Brexit
without a plan to implement it safely.

Yet this was no off-the-cuff remark by a wearied Eurocrat dreading another encounter
with Theresa May, but what appears to have been a deliberately provocative statement
intended to isolate Brexiteers in Britain, who are seen by Brussels as the main
obstacle to a deal. To this extent, Mr Tusk is right – the Government has not
been able so far to articulate a means of leaving the EU that can command a majority in Parliament.

https://i.imgur.com/qmTRTBng.jpg

Article 50, inserted into the Lisbon Treaty ostensibly to facilitate a member state’s
exit in an amicable way, to the mutual benefit of both sides, turns out to be a sham
intended either to prevent departure or to bring it about almost entirely on terms dictated by Brussels.

One theory is that the Commission is in a panic because it detects cracks appearing
among the 27 over the EU’s negotiating stance. Both Mr Tusk and Jean-Claude Juncker,
the Commission president, reasserted that Mrs May would be offered nothing new when she travels to Brussels today.

If she hopes to hear that they are ready to reopen the Withdrawal Agreement text to
accommodate changes to the Irish backstop then she is likely to be disappointed.

The EU’s tactics appear to be to give nothing away and see what happens when the
matter returns to the Commons next week. But with less than two months to the UK’s
departure, the phoney frustrations of Mr Tusk may backfire by making a no-deal Brexit
the only option left. Is that what the EU wants? If that happens then Mr Tusk will have every cause to be despondent.

That may well be a failure of governance, but not of democracy. What Mr Tusk’s
sneering remark betrayed was the utter contempt for the expressed views of
British voters in the 2016 referendum. The implication of what he said is
that no country can ever leave the EU in an orderly way, nor should voters
be asked a question that has a difficult or uncertain answer.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2019/02/06/real-motivation-behind-donald-tusks-provocative-outburst/


No not at all, he was basically highlighting that we had a campaign to vote out and noone from that campaign has stayed on to follow it through as there was no plan of how to exit, if you are offering a choice, you have to be able to deliver, it looks like it can be delivered but to what cost, to the economy and peace in Ireland. I doubt very much ANYONE considered the border in Ireland would be such a sticking point, it never crossed my mind and it never came up much during the campaigns on either in or out

[Tom4784]

No not at all, he was basically highlighting that we had a campaign to vote out and noone from that campaign has stayed on to follow it through as there was no plan of how to exit, if you are offering a choice, you have to be able to deliver, it looks like it can be delivered but to what cost, to the economy and peace in Ireland. I doubt very much ANYONE considered the border in Ireland would be such a sticking point, it never crossed my mind and it never came up much during the campaigns on either in or out

Pretty much, every single leader of the Brexit campaign turned tail and ran as soon as they won because they knew they ran on a platform of bull**** and couldn't deliver any of the **** they promised.

Tusk's words are needlessly inflammatory but the target of his derision is deserved. People who led the brexit campaign had no interest in sticking around to see it come to fruition, they had no plans and no idea how to go about doing what they lied themselves into.

[Crimson Dynamo]

No not at all, he was basically highlighting that we had a campaign to vote out and noone from that campaign has stayed on to follow it through as there was no plan of how to exit, if you are offering a choice, you have to be able to deliver, it looks like it can be delivered but to what cost, to the economy and peace in Ireland. I doubt very much ANYONE considered the border in Ireland would be such a sticking point, it never crossed my mind and it never came up much during the campaigns on either in or out

could any plan have taken into account the intransigence of Brussels and their desperation for the cracks not to appear after we leave?

[bots]

People are trying to make out that his comment was an affront to our democracy and that it was insulting to the British people when it was not.

Everyone knows that there have been plenty lies told by both sides of the argument, there is even evidence that foreign powers influenced the result. That doesn't change anything.

My own view is that a plan should have been developed before the people were given a vote on it, because even now, it's not yet certain, so how could the people possible decide it 2 years ago? So in that respect he is 100% correct.

[Livia]

More rudeness and intransigence from the European Union.

[Nicky91]

More rudeness and intransigence from the European Union.

UGH

yes we in the EU definitely look like villains :rolleyes:


making snidy remarks at EU like this, is like the sort of choices which could lead up in a war


not my intention for myself to be against Britain, not at all but some things i just cannot agree with

[Livia]

UGH

yes we in the EU definitely look like villains :rolleyes:


making snidy remarks at EU like this, is like the sort of choices which could lead up in a war


not my intention for myself to be against Britain, not at all but some things i just cannot agree with

Nicky, you've made it quite clear with your own snidey remarks lately just what you think of Britain.

[Niamh.]

UGH

yes we in the EU definitely look like villains :rolleyes:


making snidy remarks at EU like this, is like the sort of choices which could lead up in a war


not my intention for myself to be against Britain, not at all but some things i just cannot agree with

No we don't

[The Slim Reaper]

No we don't

Can you adopt me for the passport? I'm house trained.

[Niamh.]

Can you adopt me for the passport? I'm house trained.

of course :love:

[Livia]

No we don't

The whole EU isn't responsible for one man's badly chosen words. Well actually he's just the latest man from the EU to be rude and dismissive. If your president was treated as rudely as May was, you might feel differently.

[Nicky91]

No we don't

that was sarcasm from me, of course we don't

[The Slim Reaper]

of course :love:

https://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/Bitty+_90629531cd5263e44c55582ecb59373c.jpg

[Niamh.]

The whole EU isn't responsible for one man's badly chosen words. Well actually he's just the latest man from the EU to be rude and dismissive. If your president was treated as rudely as May was, you might feel differently.

No one would dare treat the lovely Miggeldy Higgins badly :o

https://i2-prod.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/article13512077.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/0_Screen-Shot-2018-10-31-at-130943.png

[Cherie]

David Cameron gets so much stick for bowing out, but he lost

Farage got his dream result and ran for the hills that says it all for me

[Crimson Dynamo]

The EU's 'deal' was voted down by two-thirds of Parliament. The reason for that is that the 'backstop' is completely unacceptable whether you are a leaver, a remainer or a vegetable.

The EU is still in fantasyland, thinking they can put the 'deal' to another vote essentially unchanged, and this time it will pass.

Then they have the nerve to slam Brexiteers for having 'no plan'.


-----

The UK, Ireland and EU all agree that there should be no "hard" border.

Yet the EU insists on keeping the terms of the backstop in case there's "no deal", so that a hard border can be avoided, in the full knowledge that this makes "the deal" unacceptable to most in parliament, which could easily lead to "the deal" being finally rejected, and then they's HAVE to have a hard border!

Somewhat incoherent policy from the EU.

They have got a lot of hard thinking to do, and they need to hurry up and do it.

---
a couple of the top comments from that leader article^^

[Niamh.]

David Cameron gets so much stick for bowing out, but he lost

Farage got his dream result and ran for the hills that says it all for me

It seemed pretty reasonable to me that David Cameron would step down since he clearly didn't think Leaving was a good idea. You're dead right, it's those like Farage who were telling everyone how wonderful leaving would be should have been the ones leading the way through and who has let the British people down

[Cherie]

could any plan have taken into account the intransigence of Brussels and their desperation for the cracks not to appear after we leave?

I do agree Brussels are playing hard ball, but what did people expect? I also think they don't really give a rats ass about the Irish border, its just a very convenient sticking point if they really cared they would be trying to compromise.

[Tom4784]

He's only 'rude and dismissive' to the people who ****ed us over as soon as they got the result they wanted. Not surprising to see the spin machine going into overdrive by the press though, when the facts don't suit your agenda, just spin 'em until the lies are convincing enough.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Farage has never run away he has done more media than any politician on this since the vote and has a nightly radio show dealing direct with the public

Cameron, the vile rat, RAN AWAY and continues to run

[Cherie]

The EU's 'deal' was voted down by two-thirds of Parliament. The reason for that is that the 'backstop' is completely unacceptable whether you are a leaver, a remainer or a vegetable.

The EU is still in fantasyland, thinking they can put the 'deal' to another vote essentially unchanged, and this time it will pass.

Then they have the nerve to slam Brexiteers for having 'no plan'.


-----

The UK, Ireland and EU all agree that there should be no "hard" border.

Yet the EU insists on keeping the terms of the backstop in case there's "no deal", so that a hard border can be avoided, in the full knowledge that this makes "the deal" unacceptable to most in parliament, which could easily lead to "the deal" being finally rejected, and then they's HAVE to have a hard border!

Somewhat incoherent policy from the EU.

They have got a lot of hard thinking to do, and they need to hurry up and do it.

---
a couple of the top comments from that leader article^^

I agree with all this, the EU's hard stance is pushing us to a hard border.

[Tom4784]

Yeah, he only quit UKIP as soon as the vote was announced and then disappeared up Trump's arsehole for the better part of a year in hopes of becoming a US politics commentator. He didn't run away at all.

[Niamh.]

Farage has never run away he has done more media than any politician on this since the vote and has a nightly radio show dealing direct with the public

Cameron, the vile rat, RAN AWAY and continues to run

Why would Cameron stay when he was pushing for the voters to remain and clearly felt unequipped to lead the UK out of Europe?

[Withano]

Common sense

[Crimson Dynamo]

Why would Cameron stay when he was pushing for the voters to remain and clearly felt unequipped to lead the UK out of Europe?

Do you think he prepared well for that outcome as the PM?

[Cherie]

Why would Cameron stay when he was pushing for the voters to remain and clearly felt unequipped to lead the UK out of Europe?

Cameron had already been dealing with the EU so he knew what was ahead


Yes Farage might have a radio programme etc but that's hardly the same as being as the business end and taking his seat in parliament now is it

[Tom4784]

Do you think Farage was prepared for the outcome when he ran off when his side won, only to return when the US interest in him dried up?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Cameron had already been dealing with the EU so he knew what was ahead


Yes Farage might have a radio programme etc but that's hardly the same as being as the business end and taking his seat in parliament now is it

he isnt and MP so he cant

[Niamh.]

Do you think he prepared well for that outcome as the PM?

I think he decided that leaving would be too much of a mess to handle and surely some of the Politicians pushing to lead would be a much better solution? Surely Leavers would rather have a Leaver PM lead them out, no?

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think he decided that leaving would be too much of a mess to handle and surely some of the Politicians pushing to lead would be a much better solution? Surely Leavers would rather have a Leaver PM lead them out, no?

and we got a remain PM in May!

[Niamh.]

Didn't Floppy head Johnson leg it as well afterwards and he was a leaver too, yeah?

[Niamh.]

and we got a remain PM in May!

And she probably should have declined too by the looks of it ............

[bots]

With the backstop thing, the EU have consistently said that they wont change it because it affects the good friday agreement etc. This is them getting directly involved in the politics of member nations, which is outwith their remit. By taking this stance and not being pragmatic they are forcing the UK to go down the no deal route which will cause far more serious issues regarding the border than any agreement. So their line is pure hypocrisy.

[Tom4784]

In fairness to May, she's been consistent in trying to carry out the wishes of the referendum and she hasn't really fielded any of the options that would allow the UK to remain when she could have.

She's been more committed to a leave outcome than any of the brexit campaigns leaders who turned tail and ran as soon as they won.

[arista]

Do you think Farage was prepared for the outcome when he ran off when his side won, only to return when the US interest in him dried up?



He is still a MEP.
And is Live on LBC
Mon- Thurs and Sundays.

Dezzy he had one Group
the Gov Leave had another Group
it was two Leave Groups that Won

[Cherie]

he isnt and MP so he cant

He isn't an MP because he stepped down as leader of his party, he would be an MP if he stayed on though :laugh:

[MTVN]

Not getting this 'leavers ran away' thing, most of the prominent Brexiteers - Boris, Leadsom, Priti Patel, David Davis, Gove, Liam Fox etc etc - ended up in high ranking positions in government

Farage is an odd example as he was never part of government and has always been mainly a campaigner

[MTVN]

He isn't an MP because he stepped down as leader of his party, he would be an MP if he stayed on though :laugh:

Farage has never been an MP

[Cherie]

With the backstop thing, the EU have consistently said that they wont change it because it affects the good friday agreement etc. This is them getting directly involved in the politics of member nations, which is outwith their remit. By taking this stance and not being pragmatic they are forcing the UK to go down the no deal route which will cause far more serious issues regarding the border than any agreement. So their line is pure hypocrisy.

In fairness to May, she's been consistent in trying to carry out the wishes of the referendum and she hasn't really fielded any of the options that would allow the UK to remain when she could have.

She's been more committed to a leave outcome than any of the brexit campaigns leaders who turned tail and ran as soon as they won.


Yes and Yes


I wasn't a fan of May and her election campaign was a total farce, not sure her advisors were but turning on her core voters was not a good move, but she has been stoic in trying to deliver Brexit

[Cherie]

Farage has never been an MP

Oh you are right, I am sure he would have won in his constituency if he stayed on though as there was some controversy in the previous election where he should have won or something

[Niamh.]

Not getting this 'leavers ran away' thing, most of the prominent Brexiteers - Boris, Leadsom, Priti Patel, David Davis, Gove, Liam Fox etc etc - ended up in high ranking positions in government

Farage is an odd example as he was never part of government and has always been mainly a campaigner

Didn't Johnson rule himself out as a contender for Pm though after Cameron stepped down?

[The Slim Reaper]

Didn't Johnson rule himself out as a contender for Pm though after Cameron stepped down?

Johnson also wrote 2 newspaper columns on the eve of Brexit; Why I voted leave, and why I voted remain, so he could just pick which one won. Johnson is an opportunist.

[Niamh.]

Johnson also wrote 2 newspaper columns on the eve of Brexit; Why I voted leave, and why I voted remain, so he could just pick which one won. Johnson is an opportunist.

:laugh2:

[MTVN]

Didn't Johnson rule himself out as a contender for Pm though after Cameron stepped down?

He was going to run thinking he had the support of Gove but then Gove announced he was running himself so he didn't think he could win

I've no doubt he would love to be PM though and I think he would now run if the opportunity was there

[Niamh.]

He was going to run thinking he had the support of Gove but then Gove announced he was running himself so he didn't think he could win

I've no doubt he would love to be PM though and I think he would now run if the opportunity was there

Do you really believe that's the only reason he didn't run? I'd say he was thinking **** that, it's going to be a disaster :laugh:

[bots]

At the time of the ref Boris thought he was the anointed chosen one. Gove stabbed him in the back by announcing that he would stand in the leadership. By doing so, he ensured that neither he nor Boris would get the leadership as it would split their vote. Gove knew exactly what he was doing too ...