Did the fire brigade fail to save more lives at grenfell.

[Beso]

I have just seen that next Monday nights ch4 dispatches is asking this question.


I remember posting a video on the night of the fire on here that showed the flat the fire started in and I posted about how the firemen we're aiming the hose underneath the fire rather than at the top...


Now that I remember though I think i posted without posting the video, then when I went back to try and post it the video was mysteriously missing from my original source.



But anyway...I have always believed since then that the fire service were at fault in the fact they tragically underestimated the dangers on that tragic night.

[arista]

Yes they Failed
due to not understanding what was going on.
They went into to the Fire at his Fridge
then left, not aware of the outside.

[Cherie]

There failure was they didn't realise the building was wrapped in a flammable material and why would they? if anyone has ever had any work done in their own homes building control pick up on the tinyest of details, so there would be no reason for them to think that on a building like this it would be any different

[Niamh.]

There failure was they didn't realise the building was wrapped in a flammable material and why would they? if anyone has ever had any work done in their own homes building control pick up on the tinyest of details, so there would be no reason for them to think that on a building like this it would be any different

Exactly.

They are working under the assumption that the building is up to safety standards. I mean wasn't this a council property? (or am i wrong about that?) That would be even more of a reason to believe it met fire safety regulations. The fire service are very well trained and would follow proper procedure to the letter. Very unfair to try and shift blame onto them and take some of the heat (pardon the pun) off those who were really responsible.

[Livia]

There failure was they didn't realise the building was wrapped in a flammable material and why would they? if anyone has ever had any work done in their own homes building control pick up on the tinyest of details, so there would be no reason for them to think that on a building like this it would be any different

You've said it all.

[Cherie]

It is actually appalling that people who put their lives on the line and who will most likely suffer mentally for the rest of their lives from what they saw and heard are being put forward as the reason for so many deaths

[Livia]

It is actually appalling that people who put their lives on the line and who will most likely suffer mentally for the rest of their lives from what they saw and heard are being put forward as the reason for so many deaths

It's crappy, isn't it.

How dare they try to shine a spotlight on the firefighters while the shiny-arsed civil servants who chose to cover the building in flammable material for financial reasons will presumably retain their reputations unblemished.

[Niamh.]

It's crappy, isn't it.

How dare they try to shine a spotlight on the firefighters while the shiny-arsed civil servants who chose to cover the building in flammable material for financial reasons will presumably retain their reputations unblemished.

Absolutely.

[bots]

I'm sure the fire service will have learnt valuable lessons. The thing is, you can't simulate every fire situation and certainly not anything on that scale and its all too easy to say what could have been done hindsight. Firemen are all highly trained, fit individuals. They rely completely on their training to deal with situations.

I would never place responsibility for mistakes on a group of people that were risking their own lives to save others .... never

[Mitchell]

It's crappy, isn't it.

How dare they try to shine a spotlight on the firefighters while the shiny-arsed civil servants who chose to cover the building in flammable material for financial reasons will presumably retain their reputations unblemished.

Abso ****ing lutley

[Livia]

I'm sure the fire service will have learnt valuable lessons. The thing is, you can't simulate every fire situation and certainly not anything on that scale and its all too easy to say what could have been done hindsight. Firemen are all highly trained, fit individuals. They rely completely on their training to deal with situations.

I would never place responsibility for mistakes on a group of people that were risking their own lives to save others .... never

I suppose when I think about the type of people covering their own arse, nothing is beyond them. I remember when I saw the terrible pictures on the news, thinking... I can almost hear the umbrellas going up as people scrabbled to distance themselves.

[Cherie]

Nothing surprises me these days, if I were a fire fighter now I would be so demoralised, they should all down tools until they get an apology and the spotlight shone back on the real reason the fire took hold, whoever sanctioned the flammable material that continues to clad blocks of flats across the country

[Niamh.]

Nothing surprises me these days, if I were a fire fighter now I would be so demoralised, they should all down tools until they get an apology and the spotlight shone back on the real reason the fire took hold, whoever sanctioned the flammable material that continues to clad blocks of flats across the country

:clap1:

[Matthew.]

There failure was they didn't realise the building was wrapped in a flammable material and why would they? if anyone has ever had any work done in their own homes building control pick up on the tinyest of details, so there would be no reason for them to think that on a building like this it would be any different

It is actually appalling that people who put their lives on the line and who will most likely suffer mentally for the rest of their lives from what they saw and heard are being put forward as the reason for so many deaths

It's crappy, isn't it.

How dare they try to shine a spotlight on the firefighters while the shiny-arsed civil servants who chose to cover the building in flammable material for financial reasons will presumably retain their reputations unblemished.

:clap1::clap1::clap1::clap1::clap1:

[Toy Soldier]

The thing is, it's actually very difficult to pump water up beyond a certain height, that's just gravity / physics. And that's why there are regulations on the use of certain materials (the type used on the building!) on buildings over a certain height. Precisely because fighting a fire in a high rise presents so many additional complications.

[Beso]

The thing is, it's actually very difficult to pump water up beyond a certain height, that's just gravity / physics. And that's why there are regulations on the use of certain materials (the type used on the building!) on buildings over a certain height. Precisely because fighting a fire in a high rise presents so many additional complications.

The video I first saw was of a fire near the ground level, firemen hosing below the window as the flames climbed up the way...I saw a clip of this progrme last night and they are using the video I saw.

[Crimson Dynamo]

yes they should have used their levitating fire engines and crystal balls to get the fire at the top and know the whole fecking building was one big roman candle due to some twats making money and cutting corners hiding behind weak regulation

[armand.kay]

It's crappy, isn't it.

How dare they try to shine a spotlight on the firefighters while the shiny-arsed civil servants who chose to cover the building in flammable material for financial reasons will presumably retain their reputations unblemished.

.

[Kazanne]

I'm sure the fire service will have learnt valuable lessons. The thing is, you can't simulate every fire situation and certainly not anything on that scale and its all too easy to say what could have been done hindsight. Firemen are all highly trained, fit individuals. They rely completely on their training to deal with situations.

I would never place responsibility for mistakes on a group of people that were risking their own lives to save others .... never

Well said Bots,my brother is a firefighter and I know they do a bloody hard job and do their best,how come they are in the firing line , when so many other people should be culpable,

[Toy Soldier]

how come they are in the firing line , when so many other people should be culpable,

Because sadly... the people who are actually culpable have the friends and connections that make it possible for them to arrange to have attention diverted elsewhere.

[Cherie]

I have just seen that next Monday nights ch4 dispatches is asking this question.


I remember posting a video on the night of the fire on here that showed the flat the fire started in and I posted about how the firemen we're aiming the hose underneath the fire rather than at the top...


Now that I remember though I think i posted without posting the video, then when I went back to try and post it the video was mysteriously missing from my original source.



But anyway...I have always believed since then that the fire service were at fault in the fact they tragically underestimated the dangers on that tragic night.



Even IF the fire brigade made some errors on the night, and lets face it they probably did given its a live situation and they are only human, the blame lies on who signed off on flammable cladding on a building, no one else

[Beso]

Even IF the fire brigade made some errors on the night, and lets face it they probably did given its a live situation and they are only human, the blame lies on who signed off on flammable cladding on a building, no one else

Yes, but the question is could more lives have been saved.

[Niamh.]

Yes, but the question is could more lives have been saved.

If they had pointed their hoses at a different angle? Nah. If the building hadn't been covered in flammable material? Absolutely.

[Toy Soldier]

Yes, but the question is could more lives have been saved.

It's a pointless "captain hindsight" question; in literally EVERY situation where there are deaths, of course more lives could have been saved if the outcome was already known? Unfortunately though, all that can actually be done when a disaster is in progress is making an educated guess and hoping for the best. It's the sort of decisions firefighters have to make every day. Noticing that someone is declining in a car wreck and making the decision to cut them free - but the car was pinching an artery and that person bleeds to death in 20 seconds. Might that person have survived if they had waited? Sure. Maybe. Or maybe they would have died trapped, and we'd be asking "might they have survived if they had been cut loose".

It's irrelevant. The Grenfell deaths are on the people who chose to use flammable cladding and not to install other fire safety equipment. Any attempt to divert away from that is just... grubby.

I suppose to continue the same parallel; it's like a drunk driver who caused a crash saying "Well, that family would have survived if the firefighters and paramedics had done a better job".

[Beso]

If they had pointed their hoses at a different angle? Nah. If the building hadn't been covered in flammable material? Absolutely.

There was a lot of confusion on that night..including the fire brigade believing the fire was out, waiting to long to evacuate the building..heck even some of the 999 calls were handled as far away as Newcastle. ..

[Cherie]

There was a lot of confusion on that night..including the fire brigade believing the fire was out, waiting to long to evacuate the building..heck even some of the 999 calls were handled as far away as Newcastle. ..

Yes because the flats in those tower blocks are supposed to be independantly safe and the advice it to stay put, that is of course unless the cladding surrounding the whole building isn't flammable which nobody knew until it was too late!

The firefighters were working on the premise that the building was up to standard safety wise with clear stairwells, and sprinker systems, what do you say to the residents commitee who were fighting for years to get these safety systems in place? too bad the firefighters weren't up to it on the night?

[Niamh.]

There was a lot of confusion on that night..including the fire brigade believing the fire was out, waiting to long to evacuate the building..heck even some of the 999 calls were handled as far away as Newcastle. ..

Of course there was confusion, it was a massive incident, probably one most of the fire service and other emergency staff will not have seen in their lifetimes. Evacuations and timing would have been very much based on them assuming that the building didn't have flammable cladding wrapped around it also.

[Beso]

Yes because the flats in those tower blocks are supposed to be independantly safe and the advice it to stay put, that is of course unless the cladding surrounding the whole building isn't flammable which nobody knew until it was too late!

The firefighters were working on the premise that the building was up to standard safety wise with clear stairwells, and sprinker systems, what do you say to the residents commitee who were fighting for years to get these safety systems in place? too bad the firefighters weren't up to it on the night?



One should ask oneself if the resident commitee had been fighting to get these safety measures in place then why didn't the fire brigade know that the safety measure went in place.

[Cherie]

One should ask oneself if the resident commitee had been fighting to get these safety measures in place then why didn't the fire brigade know that the safety measure went in place.

Nobody knew the cladding was flammable apart from the person who signed off on it. I believe they were aware of the sprinkler system not being in operation but on the night are you really going to refer to your notes about a particular building? The cladding is the reason it went up like it did

[Beso]

Nobody knew the cladding was flammable apart from the person who signed off on it. I believe they were aware of the sprinkler system not being in operation but on the night are you really going to refer to your notes about a particular building? The cladding is the reason it went up like it did

Checking notes is precisely what I would expect the chief fire officer to be doing.

[Toy Soldier]

I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree here Parm... Getting mad because everything wasn't handled 100% perfectly in an emergency situation is pointless, because there's no such thing as perfect in an emergency situation. It was a few hours of chaos. Whereas the problems that caused it, and turned a simple kitchen fire into an entire multistorey building going up in flames, were YEARS in the making and there were countless opportunities to fix those issues. The only reason they weren't fixed is money. Pure and simple.

[Beso]

I honestly think you're barking up the wrong tree here Parm... Getting mad because everything wasn't handled 100% perfectly in an emergency situation is pointless, because there's no such thing as perfect in an emergency situation. It was a few hours of chaos. Whereas the problems that caused it, and turned a simple kitchen fire into an entire multistorey building going up in flames, were YEARS in the making and there were countless opportunities to fix those issues. The only reason they weren't fixed is money. Pure and simple.




We will see what the programme comes up with, I am hoping my suspicions are unfounded I must admit

[Underscore]

I can't believe anybody could even think this.

Shameful

[Beso]

I can't believe anybody could even think this.

Shameful

I would hope that people think this after every fire to be honest, surely it's the only way to learn from mistakes or to better procedures?

[Toy Soldier]

We will see what the programme comes up with, I am hoping my suspicions are unfounded I must admit:shrug: depends how impartial the documentary is.

[Beso]

:shrug: depends how impartial the documentary is.

It's on c4 so we can be slightly more optimistic than we would be if it were on BBC.

[GoldHeart]

Yeah let's all blame the hardworking firefighters who risked their lives :facepalm: . They did all they could, the fire spread so quickly.
Oh and Let's ignore the dangerous cladding and terrible building structure :crazy: