Blackface: A cultural history of a racist art form

[SherzyK]

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I’m not usually around the SN&D but I feel like this needs to be touched upon and made aware of to people.

Looking back at the Gucci balaclava thread from a week ago, I noticed that opinions were divided on this so I wanna know what people ‘really think’ of this ‘art form’. Honestly, the whole concept is just creepy and judging by the video, there still seems to be some sort of prevelance to it which is disgusting in this day and age.

[Barry.]

I-

[SherzyK]

I-

It’s disgusting behaviour tbh

[Livia]

All this just throws up more questions for me.

Lawrence Olivier blacked up to play Othello. Was that wrong?

I saw Adrian Lester - a black actor - play King Henry V - who was most definitely a white man. Was that okay?

I've seen Eddie Murphy whited up playing a Jew. Is that wrong? If it had been a white man blacked up... people would have twisted themselves out of shape with rage but despite the various plights the Jews have faced, it's okay for a black man to white up to play one.

I see stuff on TV that depicts black people during [for instance] Victorian times in positions of power... Guardsmen, policemen... it wouldn't have happened. Now, is it okay to pretend the Victorians were all inclusive, or does that damage the truth, that at the time black people were thought of as less then the British working class?

A West End star - a white woman - was refused permission to sing a some from Dream Girls because the song is for a black woman and she is white. Dear God... can you imagine the uproar that would kick off if a black woman was refused permission to sing a song because of the colour of her skin?

[Nicky91]

some of democrat politicians got accused of blackface


https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/06/us/politics/virginia-blackface-mark-herring.html

[Niamh.]

All this just throws up more questions for me.

Lawrence Olivier blacked up to play Othello. Was that wrong?

I saw Adrian Lester - a black actor - play King Henry V - who was most definitely a white man. Was that okay?

I've seen Eddie Murphy whited up playing a Jew. Is that wrong? If it had been a white man blacked up... people would have twisted themselves out of shape with rage but despite the various plights the Jews have faced, it's okay for a black man to white up to play one.

I see stuff on TV that depicts black people during [for instance] Victorian times in positions of power... Guardsmen, policemen... it wouldn't have happened. Now, is it okay to pretend the Victorians were all inclusive, or does that damage the truth, that at the time black people were thought of as less then the British working class?

A West End star - a white woman - was refused permission to sing a some from Dream Girls because the song is for a black woman and she is white. Dear God... can you imagine the uproar that would kick off if a black woman was refused permission to sing a song because of the colour of her skin?

That was in 1988 tbf :laugh:

There was a ****load of stuff done in the 80's that would never see the light of day nowadays

[Nicky91]

Ralph Northam story so funny

he got accused of being the blackfaced person on a picture standing next to a man in a KKK outfit

he denied that, but he did say ''i used blackface at a school party''

vdFE5IQwk2o

was on daily show with trevor noah

[Nicky91]

you deny one thing, but what he did was basically the same what he got accused of ''using blackface''

[Livia]

That was in 1988 tbf :laugh:

There was a ****load of stuff done in the 80's that would never see the light of day nowadays

Yes 1984. I've also talked about the Victorians and it was back in the forties that Olivier played Othello. How old is the footage of the black and white minstrels? And the thread's entitled 'a cultural history'. I'm just trying to demonstrate that everything isn't literally black or white.

[Livia]

Ralph Northam story so funny

he got accused of being the blackfaced person on a picture standing next to a man in a KKK outfit

he denied that, but he did say ''i used blackface at a school party''

vdFE5IQwk2o

was on daily show with trevor noah

They're talking about stuff people did years ago and holding them to account for it in today's more enlightened society.

[Cherie]

The humour was of its day, it is what people found funny at the time, obviously humour has evolved, pretty sure people will look back in 50 years time at what was considered humourous today and roll their eyes as well. Maybe drag artists will come under scrutiny who knows?

What I found interesting is the black actors blacking up because they felt they had to because that was what the audience of the day paid to see so surely in alot of cases the white actors were under the same pressures.

[Nicky91]

They're talking about stuff people did years ago and holding them to account for it in today's more enlightened society.

yes but him denying to be the blackface person on the picture yet saying he used blackface somewhere else is quite stupid to say as excuse


Trevor was right, it comes over similar like someone saying ''i'm not a serial killer here in Virginia, but i am in Florida''


but yes Livia, they talk about stuff several years ago, all bc they are now en route to 2020 elections, there was drama during 2016 elections so this is no surprise there is drama now

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think most rational people can understand how history works and how attitudes change. YOu cant use todays morality and standards to then be disgusted by the past that is pointless and futile.

You should look at the past and how (in this case) this does not happen today and be pleased in the progress we have made

The GUcci thing wasnt anything to do with this, it was a jumper that people put a meaning to that wasnt there or intended and then used social media to be outraged and virtue signal, till then next thing comes along.


I used to watch the b&w minstrel show with my mum and dad and enjoyed it, I would do neither today if somehow it was on.

[Livia]

I think most rational people can understand how history works and how attitudes change. YOu cant use todays morality and standards to then be disgusted by the past that is pointless and futile.

You should look at the past and how (in this case) this does not happen today and be pleased in the progress we have made

The GUcci thing wasnt anything to do with this, it was a jumper that people put a meaning to that wasnt there or intended and then used social media to be outraged and virtue signal, till then next thing comes along.


I used to watch the b&w minstrel show with my mum and dad and enjoyed it, I would do neither today if somehow it was on.

I've got to agree.

Did you think the black and white minstrels were supposed to be black people? I had a golly when I was a child that I loved dearly and it never occurred to me that it was supposed to represent a black person. No black person I ever saw looked like that.

[SherzyK]

You have to consider the stereotypes that surround these shows if we’re talking about minstrelsy. They were portrayed as lazy, buffoonish, lasvicious, superstitious and if you look at some of the more contemporary blackface, it just assumes that they all have big red lips and dreads. I honestly don’t see the comedy in it

[SherzyK]

I think most rational people can understand how history works and how attitudes change. YOu cant use todays morality and standards to then be disgusted by the past that is pointless and futile.

You should look at the past and how (in this case) this does not happen today and be pleased in the progress we have made

The GUcci thing wasnt anything to do with this, it was a jumper that people put a meaning to that wasnt there or intended and then used social media to be outraged and virtue signal, till then next thing comes along.


I used to watch the b&w minstrel show with my mum and dad and enjoyed it, I would do neither today if somehow it was on.

I only took inspiration from the Gucci mask thing, don’t put words in my mouth or claim to know my motivations for making this thread. Step back

[Nicky91]

You have to consider the stereotypes that surround these shows if we’re talking about minstrelsy. They were portrayed as lazy, buffoonish, lasvicious, superstitious and if you look at some of the more contemporary blackface, it just assumes that they all have big red lips and dreads. I honestly don’t see the comedy in it

our ''ban zwarte piet discussion'' was few years before this blackface thing


a debate started by this woman

http://www.dutchnews.nl/wpcms/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Sylvana-Simons-560x374.jpg

former tv host and now politician here Sylvana Simons


i know they look like stereotypes but this woman has a thing of getting into the victim role everytime she has done press conference or interview

as if she believes she would gain more sympathy if she's in victim role everytime

[Crimson Dynamo]

I only took inspiration from the Gucci mask thing, don’t put words in my mouth or claim to know my motivations for making this thread. Step back

i am sorry I was not addressing you i was addressing the subject :shrug:

[Livia]

You have to consider the stereotypes that surround these shows if we’re talking about minstrelsy. They were portrayed as lazy, buffoonish, lasvicious, superstitious and if you look at some of the more contemporary blackface, it just assumes that they all have big red lips and dreads. I honestly don’t see the comedy in it

They were? The Black and White Minstrels? Are you talking about the 19th Century? Because I was referring to the Minstrels that were part of show business until, what... the 1960s? 70s?

In any case, you cannot claim to be shocked at stuff that is no longer a part of society. To quote LP Hartley's, The Go-Between "The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.".

[Cherie]

Its a given, that in 50 years time people will look back at some rap music lyrics of today and find them unacceptable, at least I hope so!

[Livia]

Its a given, that in 50 years time people will look back at some rap music lyrics and find them unacceptable, at least I hope so!

Me too!

It gives me great comfort when I hear young people banging on about how the older generation ruined the world, and I know that in twenty or thirty years time another generation of young people will be aiming that remark at them.

[Nicky91]

my point of that post was, our ''zwarte piet'' discussion was first, and this blackface discussion now is really similar to that

i'm not a racist myself, the blackface thing is wrong, but ''zwarte piet'' it was for a children's holiday in december, with sinterklaas something what i've loved going to when i was a kid

it was more soot bc of the piets Climbing through the chimneys to bring presents to the children what they wanted from their wishlists

but that Sylvana woman, URGH bc of her (no one else ever complained before her) it is banned now ''zwarte piet'' but now they are called ''soot piets'' white with a bit of soot here and there on their faces, the children's holiday on tv (arrival of sinterklaas) didn't look as great as it had been last year

[Livia]

I understand that Zwarte Piet is supposed to be a Moor, like Othello. White actors have blacked up to play them. I don't understand the problem. I mean, it's not meant to be insulting. Unless they're saying only black actors can play black parts. But what about non-Jews playing Shylock? Plenty of actors have worn a big Jewish nose to play Shylock. I don't find that insulting.

[SherzyK]

They were? The Black and White Minstrels? Are you talking about the 19th Century? Because I was referring to the Minstrels that were part of show business until, what... the 1960s? 70s?

In any case, you cannot claim to be shocked at stuff that is no longer a part of society. To quote LP Hartley's, The Go-Between "The past is a foreign country, they do things differently there.".

Fair enough but I was referring to contemporary blackface and how people these days use blackface. I’m allowed to be shocked at something that offends me Liv. You have to agree that racism is very much prevelant to this day and back then black people took most of the brunt when it comes discrimination. I can see why it’s so sensitive to them because this is someone of a different race trying to enhance a character by painting black paint. Why not get a black person to play instead? Obviously it’s supposed to be comedic but where the comedy in it?

[SherzyK]

i am sorry I was not addressing you i was addressing the subject :shrug:

It’s fine, I just thought you were claiming that I made this thing which relates to the Gucci thread which it doesn’t and I only used it as an example

[Livia]

Fair enough but I was referring to contemporary blackface and how people these days use blackface. I’m allowed to be shocked at something that offends me Liv. You have to agree that racism is very much prevelant to this day and back then black people took most of the brunt when it comes discrimination.

I know this: Jews are the most abused minority in the UK right now. But like I said, I've never heard of a Jew complaining because someone made their face up like a Jew to play Shylock. It's not only black people who face discrimination and if you're going to change the past as well as the future, you've got to do it for all minority groups, not just black people.

What did you think about my comment about a white West End star refused permission to sing a song from Dream Girls because she's white? If a black woman was refused the right to sing a song purely based on the colour of her skin there would quite rightly be uproar. But this story seems to have been accepted as normal.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It’s fine, I just thought you were claiming that I made this thing which relates to the Gucci thread which it doesn’t and I only used it as an example

no i wasn't, no worries

[chuff me dizzy]

All this just throws up more questions for me.

Lawrence Olivier blacked up to play Othello. Was that wrong?

I saw Adrian Lester - a black actor - play King Henry V - who was most definitely a white man. Was that okay?

I've seen Eddie Murphy whited up playing a Jew. Is that wrong? If it had been a white man blacked up... people would have twisted themselves out of shape with rage but despite the various plights the Jews have faced, it's okay for a black man to white up to play one.

I see stuff on TV that depicts black people during [for instance] Victorian times in positions of power... Guardsmen, policemen... it wouldn't have happened. Now, is it okay to pretend the Victorians were all inclusive, or does that damage the truth, that at the time black people were thought of as less then the British working class?

A West End star - a white woman - was refused permission to sing a some from Dream Girls because the song is for a black woman and she is white. Dear God... can you imagine the uproar that would kick off if a black woman was refused permission to sing a song because of the colour of her skin?

:clap1::clap1: Excellent !!

[SherzyK]

I know this: Jews are the most abused minority in the UK right now. But like I said, I've never heard of a Jew complaining because someone made their face up like a Jew to play Shylock. It's not only black people who face discrimination and if you're going to change the past as well as the future, you've got to do it for all minority groups, not just black people.

What did you think about my comment about a white West End star refused permission to sing a song from Dream Girls because she's white? If a black woman was refused the right to sing a song purely based on the colour of her skin there would quite rightly be uproar. But this story seems to have been accepted as normal.

Let’s just lay it all on the table and agree that we will never achieve the right amount of equality whether someone is male/female, black/white whatever. My focus was on the blackface but I guess you can see it from different standpoints. I just think that discrimination against black people is much more common but what do I know :laugh:

I’ve never heard about the dream girls thing but it’s extremely wrong they did that. But I feel like this was a one off and not something that would be considered common. Nonetheless it’s wrong that she did get rejected for that reason

[Livia]

Let’s just lay it all on the table and agree that we will never achieve the right amount of equality whether someone is male/female, black/white whatever. My focus was on the blackface but I guess you can see it from different standpoints. I just think that discrimination against black people is much more common but what do I know :laugh:

I’ve never heard about the dream girls thing but it’s extremely wrong they did that. But I feel like this was a one off and not something that would be considered common. Nonetheless it’s wrong that she did get rejected for that reason

In an ideal world no one would ever be discriminated against... but people are cruel and whatever's different about you, someone will hate you for it. My view is this: things are changing, very slowly maybe, but they are changing and we've gained a lot of ground in the last few decades in making people feel included and not singled out because they're different. It would be nice if there was a bit of celebration over that.

Being a Jewish woman, I have been abused purely because of who I am. But I don't let those instances define me because the people who hate me because I'm a Jew are ****ing slugs. Not even worthy of my acknowledgement even.

Specifically regarding the blackface thing, the only question that should be asked in my opinion, is this: is it meant to be insulting or degrading? And if the answer is yes, get rid. But the answer isn't always going to be yes.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Does this mean that no white person would ever dress up as a black celeb for say Halloween?

[Cherie]

Me too!

It gives me great comfort when I hear young people banging on about how the older generation ruined the world, and I know that in twenty or thirty years time another generation of young people will be aiming that remark at them.

http://www.thisisbigbrother.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354291&highlight=thomas+tank+engine


They have started already :hehe: imagine what 7 year olds would be saying to this :laugh: