BBC bans Michael Jackson music amidst child abuse claims

[Kazanne]

This is also really interesting to read no wonder people doubt the documentary.

https://talunzeitoun.com/2019/01/30/michael-jackson-and-me/?fbclid=IwAR1mk6TboErqfHDLPFa2Wra_UABm4aXJ6fZtGtG_ OaYxskpRfyg_kR7X6zA

[GoldHeart]

This is also really interesting to read no wonder people doubt the documentary.

https://talunzeitoun.com/2019/01/30/michael-jackson-and-me/?fbclid=IwAR1mk6TboErqfHDLPFa2Wra_UABm4aXJ6fZtGtG_ OaYxskpRfyg_kR7X6zA

:clap1:

[Beso]

This is also really interesting to read no wonder people doubt the documentary.

https://talunzeitoun.com/2019/01/30/michael-jackson-and-me/?fbclid=IwAR1mk6TboErqfHDLPFa2Wra_UABm4aXJ6fZtGtG_ OaYxskpRfyg_kR7X6zA

What's the lads name?

[Beso]

Talun Zeitoun – Blogger, artist & New Yorker covering fashion, grooming ...
https://talunzeitoun.com




Teeheee....grooming.

[Beso]

Google his name Kaz, on google picture search...ignore the photo shopped MJ one and concentrate on the fashon shoot ones (cause that's all there is) tell me the ain't all taken in one day...



Your links fake, probably set up by Jermaines frantic fingers.....looking for something to do rather than count Mj's dollars.

[user104658]

Google his name Kaz, on google picture search...ignore the photo shopped MJ one and concentrate on the fashon shoot ones (cause that's all there is) tell me the ain't all taken in one day...


There are in fact two different pictures of him "with Michael" and both of them are photoshopped. Badly. :facepalm:

[Beso]

There are in fact two different pictures of him "with Michael" and both of them are photoshopped. Badly. :facepalm:

Jermaine should have gone to specs avers.

[Kazanne]

Google his name Kaz, on google picture search...ignore the photo shopped MJ one and concentrate on the fashon shoot ones (cause that's all there is) tell me the ain't all taken in one day...



Your links fake, probably set up by Jermaines frantic fingers.....looking for something to do rather than count Mj's dollars.

So if you think it's fake he goes into a lot of detail which proves it can be done , I will have a look properly tomorrow watching Bachelor UK now :joker:

[GoldHeart]

So if you think it's fake he goes into a lot of detail which proves it can be done , I will have a look properly tomorrow watching Bachelor UK now :joker:

Yeah a lot of details for a fake story,unless he's a fantasist like wade & James.

If this guy said Michael abused him and wrote war & peace on his "horrific ordeal" , I bet then people would believe it and not call it fake or Photoshop :facepalm: .

[Beso]

So if you think it's fake he goes into a lot of detail which proves it can be done , I will have a look properly tomorrow watching Bachelor UK now :joker:

OK, just dont come back thinking I will shout at you like some people.

[Kazanne]

OK, just dont come back thinking I will shout at you like some people.

:laugh: I won't Parmy, :wavey:

[GoldHeart]

Wait i'm confused why is this Talun's story being discredited just because it's a positive one? . I bet if he was saying MJ abused him then it's instantly believed :bored: .

Interesting how 2 known liars have hoodwinked alot of people despite all the lies and inconsistencies .

[user104658]

Wait i'm confused why is this Talun's story being discredited just because it's a positive one? . I bet if he was saying MJ abused him then it's instantly believed :bored: .

Interesting how 2 known liars have hoodwinked alot of people despite all the lies and inconsistencies .

I haven't read enough about it to discredit him but the picture is photoshopped. I mean, that's not a "theory" it just... is... you can see that it is, surely?

[Kazanne]

I found this Parmy
https://www.mjworld.net/news/2019/01/30/talun-zeitoun-defends-michael/

His name is Talun,I do a lot of photoshopping myself If that first pic is a photoshop it's really well done the second one does seem a little different,but could be down to the skin colours being so different but I cant be sure on this one. but his story is seems very well detailed and I am sure if untrue someone would have come out of the woodwork.This is what he said about that pic.
talunzeitoun
Michael and me in 1995 photographed by Jonathan Exley in between takes on the set of the “SCREAM” music video. One year later, this photograph became a full-page centerfold in the HIStory World Tour book (swipe left). It ended up being a treasured photograph of his, framed on his grand piano in Neverland Ranch, even beyond his passing. As to whether it’s still there or not, I’m not quite sure. For those of you asking “how?”, he considered himself my “older and protective brother” (in writing) as my mother @janetzeitoun was his hairstylist and dear friend since before I was even born. Beyond our personal affiliation with him, we share with the rest of the world the impact his music had on us; in many ways, he was a spiritual teacher through music. While I don’t like to dwell on the negative, I have to get one thing off my chest: I think it’s important to note that he was torn apart by greed, brutally false allegations, and a collective unwillingness to appreciate the beautiful differences in humanity; all cruel weapons used to this day, and more disturbingly within those of higher political power. And the very people who brought him down now live sick to their hearts forever in regret, wishing he were still with us today. It’s a shame that now, 9 years gone, Michael has yet to have a proper museum and memorial for the world to experience his life (his garments, for instance, have been wrongfully sold off for profit and Neverland has been left to ruins). His life is just a vivid memory in my head, my mother’s, his family’s, his children’s, and those else who were dear to him; the stage and what was seen on TV for the rest. Alright, on to a more positive note, thankfully his music and legacy as the greatest musician of all time has transcended it all and will last for eternity. Happy Birthday #MichaelJackson. Miss you dearly.

[Vicky.]

There could be thousands and thousands of 'he didn't touch me' stories and they still would not discount the ones who say he did, thats not quite how it works. Many kids who came into contact with Saville could say he never touched them, what would that prove? Genuinely not seeing it, though its not me desperate to prove he is innocent. Not invested in it either way tbh, but it does seem, to me, that its likely he was a nonce...and if not at the very least he behaved inappropriately with many children :shrug:

That Talun Zeitoun is gorgeous...but yeah, the photos of him with Michael really do look photoshopped, and not photoshopped well either.

[Vanessa]

But these two have said on the trial that nothing happened. Now they both changed their minds? Seems fishy to me.

[Kazanne]

There could be thousands and thousands of 'he didn't touch me' stories and they still would not discount the ones who say he did, thats not quite how it works. Many kids who came into contact with Saville could say he never touched them, what would that prove? Genuinely not seeing it, though its not me desperate to prove he is innocent. Not invested in it either way tbh, but it does seem, to me, that its likely he was a nonce...and if not at the very least he behaved inappropriately with many children :shrug:

That Talun Zeitoun is gorgeous...but yeah, the photos of him with Michael really do look photoshopped, and not photoshopped well either.

Well he did give the name of the photographer,sure he would have denied this pic :shrug:

[Niamh.]

But these two have said on the trial that nothing happened. Now they both changed their minds? Seems fishy to me.

Would you say it's more or less fishy than a grown man sharing his bed with random 7-11 year olds he befriends? :think:

[Vanessa]

Would you say it's more or less fishy than a grown man sharing his bed with random 7-11 year olds he befriends? :think:

He was cleared in court. That's good enough for me. Police followed him for years and found no evidence whatsoever. I.need some evidence before I believe any of it.

[Niamh.]

He was cleared in court. That's good enough for me. Police followed him for years and found no evidence whatsoever. I.need some evidence before I believe any of it.

So was OJ. Good job avoiding my actual question though :laugh:

[Vicky.]

Well he did give the name of the photographer,sure he would have denied this pic :shrug:

Maybe, no judging on the photoshop thing really, just really does look very photoshopped to me :laugh: Makes no odds really if it is or isn't.

[Vanessa]

So was OJ. Good job avoiding my actual question though :laugh:

Yes thats not right, but it doesn't mean he was guilty.

[Niamh.]

Yes thats not right, but it doesn't mean he was guilty.

In my view, at the very least it makes him guilty of extremely inappropriate behaviour around children (namely young boys of a certain age)

[AnnieK]

Wait i'm confused why is this Talun's story being discredited just because it's a positive one? . I bet if he was saying MJ abused him then it's instantly believed :bored: .

Interesting how 2 known liars have hoodwinked alot of people despite all the lies and inconsistencies .

You have instantly believed it because you believe MJ to be innocent though - its no different to people disbelieving it because they believe his guilt :shrug:

Quite possibly is true his account, if his mum was on Jackson's payroll, he will have spent time with him. If it is true, his mum obviously spent a lot of time in Jackson's inner circle and was close to him, makes sense that if he was an abuser he wouldn't have abused this boy - he liked to keep the parents more at arms length rather than have them working closely with him.

[Vicky.]

Also to be clear, I am not discrediting his story at all. I just don't think stories coming out of kids he did not touch, have an bearing on those who say he did touch them :shrug: Pedos don't tend to abuse every kid they come into contact with. Thought that was well known, but seemingly not.

[Vanessa]

In my view, at the very least it makes him guilty of extremely inappropriate behaviour around children (namely young boys of a certain age)

I agree with this.

[joeysteele]

Inappropriate behaviour is not always a crime however.
Just saying.

That's for Police, authorities and other parties to decide in law.
Via a court and jury.

Before anyone should be declared criminally guilty.
Again it's avoided because it doesn't suit.
However, MJ denied all, fought all in court and was found not guilty of anything on all 14 counts.
10 serious and even 4 of minor categorisation.

Just adding that again although it's become a waste of time doing so.
In my opinion.

[Niamh.]

Inappropriate behaviour is not always a crime however.
Just saying.

That's for Police, authorities and other parties to decide in law.
Via a court and jury.

Before anyone should be declared criminally guilty.
Again it's avoided because it doesn't suit.
However, MJ denied all, fought all in court and was found not guilty of anything on all 14 counts.
10 serious and even 4 of minor categorisation.

Just adding that again although it's become a waste of time doing so.
In my opinion.

I know. I said "at the very least"

[Vicky.]

Again with the 'it doesnt suit' as if people WANT him to have touched kids. It sure does not suit me that I think he is guilty. I love his music and feel guilty when I hear it! Its a strange position to be in really. I would much rather I did not believe it :laugh:

[Vanessa]

Inappropriate behaviour is not always a crime however.
Just saying.

That's for Police, authorities and other parties to decide in law.
Via a court and jury.

Before anyone should be declared criminally guilty.
Again it's avoided because it doesn't suit.
However, MJ denied all, fought all in court and was found not guilty of anything on all 14 counts.
10 serious and even 4 of minor categorisation.

Just adding that again although it's become a waste of time doing so.
In my opinion.

I agree.

[Niamh.]

Again with the 'it doesnt suit' as if people WANT him to have touched kids. It sure does not suit me that I think he is guilty. I love his music and feel guilty when I hear it! Its a strange position to be in really. I would much rather I did not believe it :laugh:

Yep same here. I have no ides why people would think that I would actually want him to be guilty either

[Kazanne]

Yep same here. I have no ides why people would think that I would actually want him to be guilty either

But didn't you say you were thankful he is dead ?

[Niamh.]

But didn't you say you were thankful he is dead ?

Because I think he's a paedo, yeah? I don't think you read my post here correctly Kazanne. I don't hope he is a paedo but I do think he is.

[thesheriff443]

Just been to my local cafe, the owner has memorabilia on the wall.

He still has Mj jacket from his 1988 tour and signed photo of Mj and dancer. On the wall.

[Kazanne]

Because I think he's a paedo, yeah? I don't think you read my post here correctly Kazanne. I don't hope he is a paedo but I do think he is.

I just thought it was quite a harsh thing to say when no one is 100% he has done anything wrong.

[Kazanne]

Just been to my local cafe, the owner has memorabilia on the wall.

He still has Mj jacket from his 1988 tour and signed photo of Mj and dancer. On the wall.

Good for them I say sheriff, removing them and not playing his music will not change anything.

[Niamh.]

I just thought it was quite a harsh thing to say when no one is 100% he has done anything wrong.

About as harsh as some of the stuff that's been said about potential victims of child sex abuse I would say, when no one is 100% sure that they're not victims

[Kazanne]

I was sent this earlier ,posting it as promised,
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-skeptical-psychologist/200907/michael-jackson-truth-serum-and-false-memories?page=1

[Tom4784]

About as harsh as some of the stuff that's been said about potential victims of child sex abuse I would say when no one is 100% sure that they're not victims

Pretty much.

[AnnieK]

I was sent this earlier ,posting it as promised,
https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/the-skeptical-psychologist/200907/michael-jackson-truth-serum-and-false-memories?page=1

Genuine question, who keeps asking you to post these links?

[Kazanne]

Genuine question, who keeps asking you to post these links?

I am not sure I should name them Annie otherwise they would have posted them themselves,I've no doubt they will let me know if it's ok to say ,they have just sent me links and a couple of vids maybe they don't know how do post the vids or don't want to be shot down for thinking MJ is innocent:shrug: I have also found some myself, it's no big deal really it's all there on the net ,for or against.

[AnnieK]

I am not sure I should name them Annie otherwise they would have posted them themselves,I've no doubt they will let me know if it's ok to say ,they have just sent me links and a couple of vids maybe they don't know how do post the vids or don't want to be shot down for thinking MJ is innocent:shrug: I have also found some myself, it's no big deal really it's all there on the net ,for or against.

Ah, as I said Kaz, it was a genuine question as I thought you meant it was someone off site asking you to post which seemed odd.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and its not a case of anyone being shot down I don't think, people on both sides have been disagreed with.

I have had my views about MJ for a very long time, since the first documentary and I still feel that he is absolutely guilty of emotional abuse as well. This documentary had nothing to do with my thoughts on him and nothing anyone has posted has made me have change my opinion.

[Kazanne]

Ah, as I said Kaz, it was a genuine question as I thought you meant it was someone off site asking you to post which seemed odd.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and its not a case of anyone being shot down I don't think, people on both sides have been disagreed with.

I have had my views about MJ for a very long time, since the first documentary and I still feel that he is absolutely guilty of emotional abuse as well. This documentary had nothing to do with my thoughts on him and nothing anyone has posted has made me have change my opinion.

Oh no Annie it wasn't anyone off site,just a couple of members . I respect your opinion Annie, I just fine too many things don't seem to add up for me, but we all see things differently.:wavey:

[chuff me dizzy]

I'm not an idiot I understand all that but it doesn't fit with James & Wade's stories :facepalm:

I'm not going to believe 2 well known pathological liars ! , its as simply as that . plus if they've lived under oath what makes you think suddenly they're telling the truth??? I can't understand that.

Pleas show proof of your claim

[user104658]

Oh no Annie it wasn't anyone off site,just a couple of members . I respect your opinion Annie, I just fine too many things don't seem to add up for me, but we all see things differently.:wavey:

As a genuine question Kaz; sexual abuse allegations totally aside, do you think that the way he discarded children / went through a serious of "favourites" one after the other could be considered abusive in itself?

[Cherie]

As a genuine question Kaz; sexual abuse allegations totally aside, do you think that the way he discarded children / went through a serious of "favourites" one after the other could be considered abusive in itself?

Did that actually happen though? they seemed to be intimating that he cast them aside at age 10 but they were with him well into their teens, that Jimmy was hanging out the hotel window in Paris and he must have been 14 or so. If he was trapped in his childhood obviously as they grew older they would have been less interested in popcorn and movie night etc so it would have been a natural transition to befriend other children...I don't know I lean both ways but I think each argument could have an innocuous reason as well an a not so innocuous one

[Kazanne]

As a genuine question Kaz; sexual abuse allegations totally aside, do you think that the way he discarded children / went through a serious of "favourites" one after the other could be considered abusive in itself?

But again we only have their word he 'discarded' them, they said they felt discarded , well one of them did, maybe they all just moved on in life , didn't Michael get married and have kids of his own ,maybe his time was more needed for them , could be the boys grew older and faded away (until now) , MJ had tours ,recordings, many , many things to do maybe it was just a lack of time , besides he stayed friends with a few of them , and he also had lady friends and no doubt a lot of his time was taken up with career stuff.

[chuff me dizzy]

Would an innocent man give 21 million to a blackmailer?

After being blackmailed would you continue to have kids sleep at your house?

:clap1: By handing over the £21m he admitted guilt IMO

[Kazanne]

:clap1: By handing over the £21m he admitted guilt IMO

This has already been explained,but nevermind.

[chuff me dizzy]

Elvis Married Priscilla when she was 14 years old but i guess that's ok?? :facepalm:

22 to be exact,NOT 14

https://priscilla.elvispresley.com.au

[joeysteele]

But again we only have their word he 'discarded' them, they said they felt discarded , well one of them did, maybe they all just moved on in life , didn't Michael get married and have kids of his own ,maybe his time was more needed for them , could be the boys grew older and faded away (until now) , MJ had tours ,recordings, many , many things to do maybe it was just a lack of time , besides he stayed friends with a few of them , and he also had lady friends and no doubt a lot of his time was taken up with career stuff.



Very strong response.

Also Cherie made a really strong response with good observances.

My answer as to was it abusive is a very short one, unusually for me.

It's simply.
No it's not abusive.

[AnnieK]

Very strong response.

Also Cherie made a really strong response with good observances.

My answer as to was it abusive is a very short one, unusually for me.

It's simply.
No it's not abusive.

In your opinion. You do realise what abandonment does to children emotionally if that did happen?

[chuff me dizzy]

This has already been explained,but nevermind.

I remember someone said his lawyer( I think it was lawyer) advised him to pay up, but IF he were innocent he would have fought it out in a court of law and eradicated the doubt of guilt that hung over his head since he did it

[joeysteele]

In your opinion. You do realise what abandonment does to children emotionally if that did happen?

Well of course its in my opinion.
Whose other could it be.

He didn't abandon them anyway.
The Mother's still had contact at times with him.

It may be upsetting but they weren't his children to abandon anyway.

They didn't live with him permanently for goodness sake.
He was clearly generous the time they spent with him and enjoyed the lifestyle they had.

I'd bet had they been in desperate need he'd have been there for them and helped them.

Of course you'd likely say he only used and abused them no matter what I say anyway.

[Kazanne]

In your opinion. You do realise what abandonment does to children emotionally if that did happen?

Annie,I was abandoned by my real mother when I was 3, and I was adopted by my stepmom,we had a good life and although I always wondered about my mom,I feel I am quite emotionally stable and able to forgive her, I did find her many years later but she had passed on,so I still missed out on her ,but I did find several siblings,I don't think they were abandoned they had their parents,homes etc and they must have had other friends.

[Kazanne]

Well of course its in my opinion.
Whose other could it be.

He didn't abandon them anyway.
The Mother's still had contact at times with him.

It may be upsetting but they weren't his children to abandon anyway.

They didn't live with him permanently for goodness sake.
He was clearly generous the time they spent with him and enjoyed the lifestyle they had.

I'd bet had they been in desperate need he'd have been there for them and helped them.

Of course you'd likely say he only used and abused them no matter what I say anyway.


Also they could have missed his company and gifts he gave them !!!

[user104658]

It seems fairly clear, then, that some people simply believe he could do no wrong and won't even accept that he was a bit irresponsible with kids emotions, so I suppose very unsurprising that that it wouldnt be accepted that he did any worse.

You can literally track his press through the years and see the "main kid" being swapped at regular intervals but "nah, no proof, didn't happen, he was unquestionably awesome".

[GoldHeart]

I know. I said "at the very least"

To me this sounds more like grasping at straws , it's like you're saying "ought even if MJ isn't a paedophile he was still inappropriate" whatever that means :facepalm: .

It's like when people put emphasis on "emotional abuse" again what a load of rubbish :bored: .

If you see someone as weird and not normal then you see things that aren't exactly true, just saying . Media have been gunning for mj for years and now they're enjoying these new allegations . There's people who want mj to be this "freaky child abuser" it's worrying how things get twisted.

[Niamh.]

To me this sounds more like grasping at straws , it's like you're saying "ought even if MJ isn't a paedophile he was still inappropriate" whatever that means :facepalm: .



It's like when people put emphasis on "emotional abuse" again what a load of rubbish :bored: .



If you see someone as weird and not normal then you see things that aren't exactly true, just saying . Media have been gunning for mj for years and now they're enjoying these new allegations . There's people who want mj to be this "freaky child abuser" it's worrying how things get twisted.Well no that's not what I'm saying at all, I firmly believe that his clear inappropriate behaviour was because he was a paedophile, any other excuse for his clearly inappropriate behaviour around kids, to me, is people "grasping at straws "

[joeysteele]

It seems fairly clear, then, that some people simply believe he could do no wrong and won't even accept that he was a bit irresponsible with kids emotions, so I suppose very unsurprising that that it wouldnt be accepted that he did any worse.

You can literally track his press through the years and see the "main kid" being swapped at regular intervals but "nah, no proof, didn't happen, he was unquestionably awesome".

I am looking at facts.
Many times I've said he was strange with bizarre behaviour.
I've tried to qualify that in a less negative way than yourself.

I have even stated I'd find it inappropriate children staying with him so young on their own.
However their parents didn't think any of those things and they spent long periods with their children, and him too at his home.

I'm not going to waste my time too much, as you accuse of being blind to him, which I am not.
Yet you can just throw all out positive to him, while spouting all your negatives re him.

You believe this pair,.I don't.
I don't because they've already lied before.
On oath,.all through visiting and repeatedly staying with him, with and without their parents.
Then also for years after too even after they had little to no contact with him.

So either they lied all those years, right well into their twenties.
Or they are lying now.
They can't be being truthful both times.

I can't trust or believe them now.
You can justify all the lies they must have then told for near 2 decades.
To suit the agenda of wanting Jackson guilty.

Myself and others have listened to them and to me their story does not add up.
It does to you, fair enough.
However you used the term some, (of which I'm pretty sure I'm one you infer), won't see any wrong in him.

I can throw that back .that some don't and don't even try to see right in him too.

I'm not going to waste my time much on the investigation and trial etc. Knowing your dismissal of same.

It beats me why they bothered to have any investigation and trial.
As it appears probably some knew he was guilty anyway, so a lot of time and money could have been saved by asking them and not bother with the law process at all.

[GoldHeart]

Well no that's not what I'm saying at all, I firmly believe that his clear inappropriate behaviour was because he was a paedophile, any other excuse for his clearly inappropriate behaviour around kids, to me, is people "grasping at straws "

Disagree with you !

People are trying to say MJ abandoned kids,these kids were NOT even his own children OMG :facepalm: . why not question the parenting of these kids .

Plus MJ was a dad and had his own kids to look after , plus he was extremely busy working ,either performing or going on tours as well as charity work. I honestly think some of these fans expected or wanted mj to spend 24/7 with them which is NOT possible !!! .

Wade's mother kept pushing herself and wade back into MJ's life ,she kept writing him letters and kept stalking him . But they've made it seem like MJ was the one pursuing them. Like I said it's easy to twist things when facts are ignored :bored: .

[joeysteele]

Disagree with you !

People are trying to say MJ abandoned kids,these kids were NOT even his own children OMG :facepalm: . why not question the parenting of these kids .

Plus MJ was a dad and had his own kids to look after , plus he was extremely busy working ,either performing or going on tours as well as charity work. I honestly think some of these fans expected or wanted mj to spend 24/7 with them which is NOT possible !!! .

Wade's mother kept pushing herself and wade back into MJ's life ,she kept writing him letters and kept stalking him . But they've made it seem like MJ was the one pursuing them. Like I said it's easy to twist things when facts are ignored :bored: .

Absolutely right.
Superb post.

[AnnieK]

Well no that's not what I'm saying at all, I firmly believe that his clear inappropriate behaviour was because he was a paedophile, any other excuse for his clearly inappropriate behaviour around kids, to me, is people "grasping at straws "

Absolutely right in my opinion too
I've never bought the "he never had a childhood" bollocks. Like that should excuse his questionable behaviour around pre pubescent children. Plenty of people had far worse and never felt that having children stay in their beds is the way to get over that.

The parents are also guilty.

In fact the only innocents of this whole sordid tale are the children who have been exposed to all of this (at the time- whether you believe the allegations or not, they should never have been placed in a situation such as that where inappropriateness could or could not happen), either by their parents or by a global superstar who had a strong team of advisors around him.

[GoldHeart]

Absolutely right.
Superb post.

I listened to an interview MJ did a few years ago where he said he visited a children's hospital, the media accused him of ignoring the children even though he took Minnie & mickey mouse there to cheer them up . He knew he couldn't win whatever he did as the media was out to get him :bored: .

[rusticgal]

You have instantly believed it because you believe MJ to be innocent though - its no different to people disbelieving it because they believe his guilt :shrug:

Quite possibly is true his account, if his mum was on Jackson's payroll, he will have spent time with him. If it is true, his mum obviously spent a lot of time in Jackson's inner circle and was close to him, makes sense that if he was an abuser he wouldn't have abused this boy - he liked to keep the parents more at arms length rather than have them working closely with him.


Very true...my thoughts exactly.

[GoldHeart]

If Wade & James' story is so true then why have they constantly changed their stories and contradicted time lines ??. According to them all MJ ever did was abuse them every day ! While getting drunk ,Without working or spending time with his own family & kids .

Plus why has Leaving Neverland edited a huge chunk out the film ??? :whistle:

[AnnieK]

If Wade & James' story is so true then why have they constantly changed their stories and contradicted time lines ??. According to them all MJ ever did was abuse them every day ! While getting drunk ,Without working or spending time with his own family & kids .

Plus why has Leaving Neverland edited a huge chunk out the film ??? :whistle:

All three of his kids were born after the allegations, he didn't have his own children at the time they allege this took place

[rusticgal]

I listened to an interview MJ did a few years ago where he said he visited a children's hospital, the media accused him of ignoring the children even though he took Minnie & mickey mouse there to cheer them up . He knew he couldn't win whatever he did as the media was out to get him :bored: .


Jimmy Saville used to visit children’s hospitals...treating the kids to outings :shrug:....

[Niamh.]

Absolutely right in my opinion too

I've never bought the "he never had a childhood" bollocks. Like that should excuse his questionable behaviour around pre pubescent children. Plenty of people had far worse and never felt that having children stay in their beds is the way to get over that.



The parents are also guilty.



In fact the only innocents of this whole sordid tale are the children who have been exposed to all of this (at the time- whether you believe the allegations or not, they should never have been placed in a situation such as that where inappropriateness could or could not happen), either by their parents or by a global superstar who had a strong team of advisors around him.I absolutely agree with you that the parents are also guilty, they did not do their job which is to protect and safe guard their children from danger and most likely were seduced by money and fame. That does not take any blame away from MJ though imo.

[GoldHeart]

All three of his kids were born after the allegations, he didn't have his own children at the time they allege this took place

MJ still had a family he spent time with , plus where was Lisa Presley when all this alleged
abuse took place . I know they were only married 2 years but still . plus how can they be abused every single day isn't that far fetched ?!!! .

And where was Brandi ?? Who was dating Wade for almost 10 years .

And Wade & James claim MJ lost interest and moved onto Brett Barnes & Macaulay Culkin , yet there's evidence James is still in Mj's life when he was well in his later teens :facepalm: .

Plus Wade continued to be apart of mj's life while gaining more fame & money thanks to MJ opening doors for him :suspect: .

[Niamh.]

Jimmy Saville used to visit children’s hospitals...treating the kids to outings :shrug:....Paedophiles tend to be brazen in that way, I mean Jimmy Saville actually had a show that granted kids their wishes. . .

[GoldHeart]

Paedophiles tend to be brazen in that way, I mean Jimmy Saville actually had a show that granted kids their wishes. . .

I wish people would stop comparing Saville to MJ :notimpressed: . Saville never stood trial whereas MJ did ,plus there was evidence to prove Saville was GUILTY .

[rusticgal]

I wish people would stop comparing Saville to MJ :notimpressed: . Saville never stood trial whereas MJ did ,plus there was evidence to prove Saville was GUILTY .



Why not?...the similarities are there. The wealth...the gifts...the adulation and fixation with children.
You were trying to make out MJ did so much for children and those in hospitals...it does not prove he is innocent.

[Kazanne]

Why not?...the similarities are there. The wealth...the gifts...the adulation and fixation with children.
You were trying to make out MJ did so much for children and those in hospitals...it does not prove he is innocent.

No,but court of law did

[GoldHeart]

Why not?...the similarities are there. The wealth...the gifts...the adulation and fixation with children.
You were trying to make out MJ did so much for children and those in hospitals...it does not prove he is innocent.

Wowww :facepalm: I wasn't using his charity work to excuse anything. I simply said he stood trial and was found INNOCENT , you can't label someone a "paedophile" just because you think he's weird .

He was highly investigated for years !!! . Had negative media coverage for years !! .

Nothing like Saville!

[Niamh.]

Why not?...the similarities are there. The wealth...the gifts...the adulation and fixation with children.

You were trying to make out MJ did so much for children and those in hospitals...it does not prove he is innocent.MO of a paedophile, just like why paedophiles choose to become priests easy access to children and at the time so powerful you weren't allowed question them

[joeysteele]

I wish people would stop comparing Saville to MJ :notimpressed: . Saville never stood trial whereas MJ did ,plus there was evidence to prove Saville was GUILTY .

Exactly but sadly it seems MJs trial was a total waste of time.
So you mentioning a trial means nothing unfortunately
It's seen as a non event Goldheart.

To some he waas guilty, the law shouldn't hsve bothered with investigating him and not bother with Judge or a Jury.
So much for the law.

Then he's accused of abandoning this pair.
You raised he had his family.
It was fired back at you their abuse took place before his children was born.

That's the time frame of this pairs story.

It would never be considered,.why he spent less and less time with them.
Of the possible reason his own children came along and they were what mattered righty to him then.

You are totally right too in that MJ was in fact tried and cleared.
A world away from the Saville issue.

Good luck to you Goldheart however in your reasoning.

[Beso]

Wowww :facepalm: I wasn't using his charity work to excuse anything. I simply said he stood trial and was found INNOCENT , you can't label someone a "paedophile" just because you think he's weird .

He was highly investigated for years !!! . Had negative media coverage for years !! .

Nothing like Saville!



A blatant cover up is a blatant cover up.

[GoldHeart]

Exactly but sadly it seems MJs trial was a total waste of time.
So you mentioning a trial means nothing unfortunately
It's seen as a non event Goldheart.

To some he waas guilty, the law shouldn't hsve bothered with investigating him and not bother with Judge or a Jury.
So much for the law.

Then he's accused of abandoning this pair.
You raised he had his family.
It was fired back at you their abuse took place before his children was born.

That's the time frame of this pairs story.

It would never be considered,.why he spent less and less time with them.
Of the possible reason his own children came along and they were what mattered righty to him then.

You are totally right too in that MJ was in fact tried and cleared.
A world away from the Saville issue.

Good luck to you Goldheart however in your reasoning.

Yeah we're all going round in circles in appears . But I will continue to stick with facts just like you & Kaz as we a know these allegations make zero sense.

Exactly why bother with a court & law if people still think "no smoke without fire" .

[Marsh.]

Well no, you're saying that money may possibly be a motive to lie which is true BUT the claim often pushed on this thread is more that "there's money involved so they are obviously lying" which is false.

The money and the judging the validity of the claims are largely unrelated to be honest. Especially in the US where seeking financial compensation when one feels "wronged" is baked into the legal culture.

Except it can't be, because if they are lying, then money is an obvious motive for that lie.

[rusticgal]

Yeah we're all going round in circles in appears . But I will continue to stick with facts just like you & Kaz as we a know these allegations make zero sense.

Exactly why bother with a court & law if people still think "no smoke without fire" .


Because many have been found guilty in a court of law and then found innocent years later...many have been found not guilty when hard evidence failed to prove without doubt by biased jurors...
To me and many others the facts and allegations make complete sense..

[GoldHeart]

Because many have been found guilty in a court of law and then found innocent years later...many have been found not guilty when hard evidence failed to prove without doubt by biased jurors...
To me and many others the facts and allegations make complete sense..

While ignoring these new allegations are by 2 people who are known liars ?? .

And who are suing the Jackson estate for billion dollars , why are their stories so credible?? . Why didn't the film cover their history & backgrounds more? :suspect: .

why only focus on word of mouth for a wasted 4 hours?. Why edit 45 mins out when people question inconsistencies? , nobody can ever answer me that ?? :bored: .

Wade adamantly said from a child with his mum & sister that MJ "would NEVER do that and that he was shocked at the allegations " . His Mum & Sister were backing that story up saying they've spent time at Neverland and seen that they all just watch videos & eat food .

The sister said she has slept there as well and I quote "mj would never hurt my brother" .

For years Wade continued to defend MJ until he got rejected for a tribute show & got into financial trouble ,then out the blue he appears on telly 2013 saying MJ abused him .

[Marsh.]

Why not?...the similarities are there. The wealth...the gifts...the adulation and fixation with children.
You were trying to make out MJ did so much for children and those in hospitals...it does not prove he is innocent.

Doesn't prove he is a pedo either.

[GoldHeart]

Plus the mockumentary Implies Brett Barnes was abused by MJ so he's suing HBO . And lets not forget the BS claims by an old maid saying Maculay Culkin was abused , when Culkin has been defending MJ and still defends him today.

[LaLaLand]

If Wade & James' story is so true then why have they constantly changed their stories and contradicted time lines ??. According to them all MJ ever did was abuse them every day ! While getting drunk ,Without working or spending time with his own family & kids .

Plus why has Leaving Neverland edited a huge chunk out the film ??? :whistle:

Because unless we've been sexually abused ourselves as young children (or actually, ever) we have absolutely no idea what that does to someone and how it affects them or their decisions. & even then, everyone is extremely different.

I can't even begin to imagine how something like that affects even the most basic functioning and rationale of a person.

[GoldHeart]

Because unless we've been sexually abused ourselves as young children (or actually, ever) we have absolutely no idea what that does to someone and how it affects them or their decisions. & even then, everyone is extremely different.

I can't even begin to imagine how something like that affects even the most basic functioning and rationale of a person.

Once again no addressing of all the inconsistencies ?? or why HBO cut a huge chunk out of the film :facepalm: ???

[thesheriff443]

One question to those who believe mj is innocent,

Would you give 21 million to a blackmailer if you was innocent?.

[Marsh.]

Because unless we've been sexually abused ourselves as young children (or actually, ever) we have absolutely no idea what that does to someone and how it affects them or their decisions. & even then, everyone is extremely different.

I can't even begin to imagine how something like that affects even the most basic functioning and rationale of a person.

So, with that excuse, they can do literally anything because "people react extremely differently". How convenient. :joker:

[GoldHeart]

So, with that excuse, they can do literally anything because "people react extremely differently". How convenient. :joker:

And let's forget about HBO cutting out huge bits of the film when things don't add up .

[user104658]

And let's forget about HBO cutting out huge bits of the film when things don't add up .I keep reading this on here but I can't find anything about it otherwise? Is there a source for this or any indication of what exactly has been cut, and when?

[user104658]

So, with that excuse, they can do literally anything because "people react extremely differently". How convenient. :joker:It might be "convenient" or for some reason amusing to you Marsh but it is also true; there is no "standard reaction" for victims of abuse or emotional trauma.

The idea that there is is what leads people to sweeping incorrect judgements about mental health, addiction, etc. As so much (the majority) of drug addiction is linked to childhood emotional trauma but then you get idiots saying things like "Well the same thing / worse happened to me and I'M not a thieving junkie so it's not true that it's because of that!!"

Whether you like it or not human emotion is individual and unpredictable. People can go through exactly the same thing and some will be open about it straight away some will take it to their grave. Some will rage and cry, some will seem totally blank. It just is what it is.

The idea that because abuse victim A) reacts nothing like abuse victim B), one of them must be lying, is just false and uneducated. And not really "convenient" at all.

[GoldHeart]

I keep reading this on here but I can't find anything about it otherwise? Is there a source for this or any indication of what exactly has been cut, and when?

Google it and you'll see ,in fact I'll post link
Once it was released it was the full 4 hours , but since people have questioned time lines & inconsistencies , then they conveniently cut out 45 minutes :suspect: .

Things that don't make sense is Wade's wife claiming she had never experienced abuse & has no knowledge of it ,but on their charity page it says she's a survivor of abuse

The birthday message is edited weird & misleading as it was recorded months before Wade's birthday .

Jimmy says he told his mother in 2005 that mj was a "bad person" , but he's changed that story and said in 2013 that's when he told his mum about the abuse . Yet she claims she danced /celebrated when she heard MJ died

There's also dates they've mixed up with mj & the Grammy awards .

Those are a few at the top of my head

[GoldHeart]

Also another important inconsistency is Wade claiming the dinner he had at neverland with mj & his family was the moment he felt he had to testify in court for Michael as he didn't want to take mj away from his kids , but that dinner happened after he already stood in court for mj defending him :facepalm: .

I thought the hbo website cut chunks out ,but must be on other websites. I watched a couple YouTube videos about it where both halves was chopped down .

[thesheriff443]

I see no one wants to answer my question!

[user104658]

Google it and you'll see ,in fact I'll post link
Once it was released it was the full 4 hours , but since people have questioned time lines & inconsistencies , then they conveniently cut out 45 minutes :suspect: .

Things that don't make sense is Wade's wife claiming she had never experienced abuse & has no knowledge of it ,but on their charity page it says she's a survivor of abuse

The birthday message is edited weird & misleading as it was recorded months before Wade's birthday .

Jimmy says he told his mother in 2005 that mj was a "bad person" , but he's changed that story and said in 2013 that's when he told his mum about the abuse . Yet she claims she danced /celebrated when she heard MJ died

There's also dates they've mixed up with mj & the Grammy awards .

Those are a few at the top of my head



Also another important inconsistency is Wade claiming the dinner he had at neverland with mj & his family was the moment he felt he had to testify in court for Michael as he didn't want to take mj away from his kids , but that dinner happened after he already stood in court for mj defending him :facepalm: .

Well, I still have the original HBO airing so I'll fact check this later as as far as my memory goes, some of the things you're claiming were said in the original were not.

Off the top of my head; I remember wade's wife saying she didn't know much about the strange ways that abuse can come out with abuse victims. I don't remember her specifically saying she had not experienced abuse.

I also remember Safechuck saying that he told his mum he wouldn't testify for Jackson and that he wasn't a good man in 2005 (as he refused to testify and she was telling him he should because Michael was his friend), but possibly that he didn't specifically tell her (or anyone) about the actual abuse until 2013. Not sure about his mother's comments re: her reaction when he died but :shrug: easily enough explained by her being likely to have suspicions anyway after James refusing to testify in 2005, or even just her retrospectively trying to make herself look better.

Also I'm 99% sure the claim that Wade says he realised he should testify when at Jackson's for dinner is false, as I quite specifically remember him saying that he decided to testify for the defense when MJ's lawyer (or someone else close to him) talked to him and said "He could go to prison. Can you imagine what would happen to someone like Michael in a prison?"


I also still can't find a link trying to Google this. Not even a Jackson fansite (which I'm not interested in btw I'd need to see something less biased than that)

[GoldHeart]

Well, I still have the original HBO airing so I'll fact check this later as as far as my memory goes, some of the things you're claiming were said in the original were not.

Off the top of my head; I remember wade's wide saying she didn't know much about the strange ways that abuse can come out with abuse victims. I don't remember her specifically saying she had not experienced abuse.

I also remember Safechuck saying that he told his mum he wouldn't testify for Jackson and that he wasn't a good man in 2005 (as he refused to testify and she was telling him he should because Michael was his friend), but possibly that he didn't specifically tell her (or anyone) about the actual abuse until 2013. Not sure about his mother's comments re: her reaction when he died but :shrug: easily enough explained by her being likely to have suspicions anyway after James refusing to testify in 2005, or even just her retrospectively trying to make herself look better.

Also I'm 99% sure the claim that Wade says he realised he should testify when at Jackson's for dinner is false, as I quite specifically remember him saying that he decided to testify for the defense when MJ's lawyer (or someone else close to him) talked to him and said "He could go to prison. Can you imagine what would happen to someone like Michael in a prison?"


I also still can't find a link trying to Google this. Not even a Jackson fansite (which I'm not interested in btw I'd need to see something less biased than that)

Are you saying the version you've seen DOESN'T have the things I mentioned?
The mj birthday message?
Wade's wife saying she has no knowledge of abuse in her experience?
Wade talking about the family dinner and deciding to testify?

Like I said it might be other websites that's cut bits out

[user104658]

Are you saying the version you've seen DOESN'T have the things I mentioned?

The mj birthday message?

Wade's wife saying she has no knowledge of abuse in her experience?

Wade talking about the family dinner and deciding to testify?



Like I said it might be other websites that's cut bits outI've not checked yet, this is from memory. I am near enough 100% on Wade deciding to testify when someone talked to him and said that Michael clearly wouldn't be able to handle prison; not at the dinner at Jackson's.

The copy I have is the one first aired on HBO. I downloaded and watched it straight after it aired, before it was even screened in the UK, and that's the copy I still have so unless a Jackson fan has hacked my hard drive and replaced the file, it definitely hasn't been cut or altered.

[thesheriff443]

Are you saying the version you've seen DOESN'T have the things I mentioned?
The mj birthday message?
Wade's wife saying she has no knowledge of abuse in her experience?
Wade talking about the family dinner and deciding to testify?

Like I said it might be other websites that's cut bits out

Can you answer my question about giving money to a blackmailer as the most defending mj, say these liars are doing it for money.

[GoldHeart]

Can you answer my question about giving money to a blackmailer as the most defending mj, say these liars are doing it for money.

Are you still talking about the Jordy Chandler case ?? :sleep: .

Also there's misconceptions that it was "hush money" when it was a civil lawsuit .

Evans Chandler was a proven crook & Liar ,Jordy fled the country conveniently after the pay out .

[GoldHeart]

I've not checked yet, this is from memory. I am near enough 100% on Wade deciding to testify when someone talked to him and said that Michael clearly wouldn't be able to handle prison; not at the dinner at Jackson's.

The copy I have is the one first aired on HBO. I downloaded and watched it straight after it aired, before it was even screened in the UK, and that's the copy I still have so unless a Jackson fan has hacked my hard drive and replaced the file, it definitely hasn't been cut or altered.

Well something doesn't add up , I remember seeing a clip of Wade saying he didn't want mj's kids to not have a dad . He mentions the dinner being before him testifying . Unless he's changed his story , wait what am I saying both Wade & Jimmy have changed their stories over & over :facepalm: .

[thesheriff443]

Are you still talking about the Jordy Chandler case ?? :sleep: .

Also there's misconceptions that it was "hush money" when it was a civil lawsuit .

Evans Chandler was a proven crook & Liar ,Jordy fled the country conveniently after the pay out .

Yes I am!, as this was were the sex abuse allegations started.

As to it being a civil case or a criminal one you would still want to clear your name and if it was a liar and a cheat that was blackmailing him, would that not be a bigger reason to fight it out in court.

Stop trying to dismiss me!

Answer the question, would you give 21 million to a blackmailer if you was innocent??

[thesheriff443]

Let me make it easy.

If you give 21 million to a liar you can’t throw your toys out of the pram if more liars come along.

[GoldHeart]

Yes I am!, as this was were the sex abuse allegations started.

As to it being a civil case or a criminal one you would still want to clear your name and if it was a liar and a cheat that was blackmailing him, would that not be a bigger reason to fight it out in court.

Stop trying to dismiss me!

Answer the question, would you give 21 million to a blackmailer if you was innocent??

Trying to dismiss you ???? :joker: that's funny ,there's other people writing in this Mj thread not just you . How self entitled .

Also I was responding to TS if you paid attention earlier .

And personally NO I wouldn't pay anyone that much money if I was innocent , but you can flip it the other side and say why accept the money if your child genuinely had been abused! :bored: . I feel it's irrelevant this conversation though as we all know Evan Chandler set mj up . Evan drugged his own son to lie . And was recorded saying he wants to get everything he can & ruin mj , no mention of his son suffering.

Plus the case could still of been filed for a criminal court of law , but Evan just wanted mj's money, and it's very telling that jordy disappeared later on and Evan committing suicide . People around mj advised him on things , he just wanted to move on .Plus he was likely going on tour at the time ,so people are talking in his ear telling him to do this etc .

[thesheriff443]

Trying to dismiss you ???? :joker: that's funny ,there's other people writing in this Mj thread not just you . How self entitled .

Also I was responding to TS if you paid attention earlier .

And personally NO I wouldn't pay anyone that much money if I was innocent , but you can flip it the other side and say why accept the money if your child genuinely had been abused! :bored: . I feel it's irrelevant this conversation though as we all know Evan Chandler set mj up . Evan drugged his own son to lie . And was recorded saying he wants to get everything he can & ruin mj , no mention of his son suffering.

Plus the case could still of been filed for a criminal court of law , but Evan just wanted mj's money, and it's very telling that jordy disappeared later on and Evan committing suicide . People around mj advised him on things , he just wanted to move on .Plus he was likely going on tour at the time ,so people are talking in his ear telling him to do this etc .

You were avoiding my question evening putting a sleep emoji on, when the first case was the start of the accusations, so now it’s not relivent?

You was cherry picking from the from the thread!

You answered my question, you would not pay the money.

I don’t write an essay to answer a simply question.

[joeysteele]

I would never say I was guilty if I wasn't.
I'd fight it completely.

I would not give any money to anyone to avoid defending myself against their allegations.

The celebrity world however is a really weird place to be and existence and a norm doesn't really apply.

Kazanne posted a video,.dismissed by those against Jackson no matter what.
If a divine messenger came and said Jackson was innocent, they'd be dismissed too likely.

In that video,.those around MJ advised him to let that money be paid to Chandler.
It is clearly stated in the video, although dismissed by his haters.
That MJ didn't want or approve the money being paid, he wanted it taken to court and him fight the claim.
He was, with all those advising him, not to do so.
In other words, more taken out of his hands.

Now the haters can poo poo that all they like but in 2005 he did fight against all charges, again I say, 10 serious charges and 4 minor charges.
Even with all the claims of the 90s too, being allowed to be raised in that 2005 trial.
He was still in spite of that successful in clearing his name, being found not guilty on ALL charges.
Read out individually.

No I would not give anything to anyone if I was innocent.
As with most celebrities however they don't likely handle their affairs so rely on trusted advisors to do the best for them.

I tell everyone something else I wouldn't do however too, I'd never under oath in a court for any reasons, testify someone was innocent if they weren't.

As to this pair, now changing their stories near a decade later.
Waiting for MJ himself however to have died, removing from him the chance and right to fight their story as he did all those charges in 2005.

With no legal repercussions for them likely to come either, which they know too.

[GoldHeart]

You were avoiding my question evening putting a sleep emoji on, when the first case was the start of the accusations, so now it’s not relivent?

You was cherry picking from the from the thread!

You answered my question, you would not pay the money.

I don’t write an essay to answer a simply question.

I'm also not a celebrity billionaire , the civil lawsuit doesn't make the issue go away as the person can still file a proper crime case plus there was no evidence to match mj as guilty. it is irrelevant ! as the first allegation by Chandler was BS .
You avoid the fact that the dad was a crook & Liar using his son .

[joeysteele]

Let me make it easy.

If you give 21 million to a liar you can’t throw your toys out of the pram if more liars come along.


The operative word being liars.
You are correct mostly in your last paragraph.

However far from throwing his toys out the pram, MJ did fight the new liars in court and won.
After the most invasive personal investigation into him, as to his person, his home and belongings.

People can dismiss that all they like, however that is one of the proven facts of the MJ issue.
As well as the payment to the Chandler's.

I repeat the celebrity world at the levels MJ was at, is a probable strange mixed up existence anyway.

Most celebs don't even know where they need to be until reminded by their trusted advisors.

[thesheriff443]

I'm also not a celebrity billionaire , the civil lawsuit doesn't make the issue go away as the person can still file a proper crime case plus there was no evidence to match mj as guilty. it is irrelevant ! as the first allegation by Chandler was BS .
You avoid the fact that the dad was a crook & Liar using his son .

You are tieing yourself up in knots.

So if it never made anything go away why pay it?

If there was no evidence why pay it?

If the man was using his son why pay it?

If he could still face a criminal court case why pay it?

[GoldHeart]

I would never say I was guilty if I wasn't.
I'd fight it completely.

I would not give any money to anyone to avoid defending myself against their allegations.

The celebrity world however is a really weird place to be and existence and a norm doesn't really apply.

Kazanne posted a video,.dismissed by those against Jackson no matter what.
If a divine messenger came and said Jackson was innocent, they'd be dismissed too likely.

In that video,.those around MJ advised him to let that money be paid to Chandler.
It is clearly stated in the video, although dismissed by his haters.
That MJ didn't want or approve the money being paid, he wanted it taken to court and him fight the claim.
He was, with all those advising him, not to do so.
In other words, more taken out of his hands.

Now the haters can poo poo that all they like but in 2005 he did fight against all charges, again I say, 10 serious charges and 4 minor charges.
Even with all the claims of the 90s too, being allowed to be raised in that 2005 trial.
He was still in spite of that successful in clearing his name, being found not guilty on ALL charges.
Read out individually.

No I would not give anything to anyone if I was innocent.
As with most celebrities however they don't likely handle their affairs so rely on trusted advisors to do the best for them.

I tell everyone something else I wouldn't do however too, I'd never under oath in a court for any reasons, testify someone was innocent if they weren't.

As to this pair, now changing their stories near a decade later.
Waiting for MJ himself however to have died, removing from him the chance and right to fight their story as he did all those charges in 2005.

With no legal repercussions for them likely to come either, which they know too.


Yeah I think I watched that video kaz posted ,and I've seen a few on YouTube about it . Some People want to believe it was "hush money" which is false. I've said same thing about his advisers telling him this & that ,mj was always under pressure .

And yes exactly 2005 he was cleared of everything including back to the 93 case .

Its easy for us to say we'd never pay out money, but in America they do especially when they can afford to .

[joeysteele]

Yeah I think I watched that video kaz posted ,and I've seen a few on YouTube about it . Some People want to believe it was "hush money" which is false. I've said same thing about his advisers telling him this & that ,mj was always under pressure .

And yes exactly 2005 he was cleared of everything including back to the 93 case .

Its easy for us to say we'd never pay out money, but in America they do especially when they can afford to .

Yes they do pay out in the States.
Also as you said we are not celebrity billionaires.

[thesheriff443]

The operative word being liars.
You are correct mostly in your last paragraph.

However far from throwing his toys out the pram, MJ did fight the new liars in court and won.
After the most invasive personal investigation into him, as to his person, his home and belongings.

People can dismiss that all they like, however that is one of the proven facts of the MJ issue.
As well as the payment to the Chandler's.

I repeat the celebrity world at the levels MJ was at, is a probable strange mixed up existence anyway.

Most celebs don't even know where they need to be until reminded by their trusted advisors.

I think you will find that he had no choice in fighting the second lot of so called liars as it was a criminal case and he could not buy his way out of a court room.

[GoldHeart]

You are tieing yourself up in knots.

So if it never made anything go away why pay it?

If there was no evidence why pay it?

If the man was using his son why pay it?

If he could still face a criminal court case why pay it?

Do you actually read what I wrote & even what Joey wrote ? :facepalm:.

The celebrity world is not our world , I'm not tieing myself in anything .

Mj has advisors around him pressuring him . Yeah maybe he could of refused but MJ wanted to carry on working without any issues.

[thesheriff443]

Yes they do pay out in the States.
Also as you said we are not celebrity billionaires.

Only in America can you buy your innocence.

[thesheriff443]

Do you actually read what I wrote & even what Joey wrote ? :facepalm:.

The celebrity world is not our world , I'm not tieing myself in anything .

Mj has advisors around him pressuring him . Yeah maybe he could of refused but MJ wanted to carry on working without any issues.

So work is more is more important than reputation?

[joeysteele]

I think you will find that he had no choice in fighting the second lot of so called liars as it was a criminal case and he could not buy his way out of a court room.

The point is he did.
He could have pleaded guilty if he ever was.

You can't have it all ways.
You stated if liars cone along a second time he can't throw his toys out the pram.

He did face that investigation, he did go to court.

Now like the others, you can dismiss that.
However to your point when new liars did come along.
He fought it in court and they were deemed liars and him not.

Ignore that valid point all you like but that is a proven fact.

I'd dare bet, if he was here today.
He'd be fighting these 2 now in court againwith the likely same outcome.

Although they may then have faced charges for perjury before.
Of course he isn't here now.
Very conveniently for this pair.
With their appeal against his estate for money coming up.

I actually hope their appeal fails because I just do not accept their story.
You likely do, so we will get nowhere.
I answered your question anyway.

[joeysteele]

So work is more is more important than reputation?

Yes, position, status success do get clouded.
Not just as to money paid to people.

The celebrity world has had gay people marry to present what was seen as acceptable to prejudice.

Avoiding getting married and hiding romantic involvement so as not to lose fanbases.

From celebs to company directors, to politicians.

The really rich and entertainment world is riddled with things avoiding the realities.
Money used to protect that.
Also money sought by liars, your words, knowing that to be the case.

Easy money to be got from the rich,in the cause of protection from devious liars.
Or from those feeling any kind of rejection too.

[Niamh.]

Are you still talking about the Jordy Chandler case ?? :sleep: .

Also there's misconceptions that it was "hush money" when it was a civil lawsuit .

Evans Chandler was a proven crook & Liar ,Jordy fled the country conveniently after the pay out .

I wouldn't blame him, the backlash from MJ fans is what made his father commit suicide or atleast contributed towards it

[Kazanne]

Because unless we've been sexually abused ourselves as young children (or actually, ever) we have absolutely no idea what that does to someone and how it affects them or their decisions. & even then, everyone is extremely different.

I can't even begin to imagine how something like that affects even the most basic functioning and rationale of a person.

I was abused Jonnii and know how it feels, and I think the documentary is full of BS.

[Niamh.]

I was abused Jonnii and know how it feels, and I think the documentary is full of BS.

Look at all the children who were abused by priests in the Catholic Church though, an awful lot of those people didn't come forward until years later. It's clear from the documentary that those men had parents who wanted to push the "relationships" their sons had with MJ for their own selfish reasons so I would imagine coming forward to them wouldn't have been easy, they don't come across like they were ever really in their childs corner

[Kazanne]

Let me make it easy.

If you give 21 million to a liar you can’t throw your toys out of the pram if more liars come along.

If I thought someone was guilty of molesting my child ,no amout of money would pay me off,the Chandlers were in it for the money ,if you watch the video sheriff there is a tape of Chandler saying he wants money :shrug: (The dad Evan,not the son)

[Niamh.]

If I thought someone was guilty of molesting my child ,no amout of money would pay me off,the Chandlers were in it for the money ,if you watch the video sheriff there is a tape of Chandler saying he wants money :shrug:

Clearly though, the parents of these kids aren't like "normal" parents. I would hope most decent parents would never have put their child into such a precarious situation in the first place

[joeysteele]

SLook at all the children who were abused by priests in the Catholic Church though, an awful lot of those people didn't come out until years later. It's clear from the documentary that those men had parents who wanted to push the "relationships" their sons had with MJ for their own selfish reasons so I would imagine coming forward to them wouldn't have been easy, they don't come across like they were ever really in their childs corner

And the guilty Priests when accused and alive have had to have trials and been found guilty in the main.

Something you always want to dismiss as to MJ, having said trial.
With a verdict you don't seem to accept.

Thankfully in law it should be seen as right just as a guilty verdict should have been too.

[Niamh.]

S

And the guilty Priests when accused and alive have had to have trials and been found guilty in the main.

Something you always want to dismiss as to MJ, having said trial.
With a verdict you don't seem to accept.

Thankfully in law it should be seen as right just as a guilty verdict should have been too.

The conviction rate for cases like sexual abuse and rape is very low so alot of the times I would dismiss results of cases yes. Unfortunately such a crime is very hard to prove, so being found "not guilty" alot of times just means "not provable" I mean that case in NI with the rugby players is a prime example, the girl got into a taxi crying and covered in blood.....but those men were still found "not guilty" so what hope does anyone with no physical evidence and taking on a multi million dollar mega star have?

[GoldHeart]

The conviction rate for cases like sexual abuse and rape is very low so alot of the times I would dismiss results of cases yes. Unfortunately such a crime is very hard to prove, so being found "not guilty" alot of times just means "not provable" I mean that case in NI with the rugby players is a prime example, the girl got into a taxi crying and covered in blood.....but those men were still found "not guilty" so what hope does anyone with no physical evidence and taking on a multi million dollar mega star have?

But the factor isn't just the time wade & Jimmy took to come forward , there's a lot of hole's in their stories.

I don't judge or discredit victims who later reveal they were abused,because everyone is different and at the time they're either scared or they worry they won't be believed as usually the abuser has power . It must be difficult how they carry it around for all those years before they get closure& justice.

But Wade & Jimmy aren't in that category, I don't trust them and I don't believe them . plus why try & sue the Jackson estate holding them accountable?!! What kind of crap is that :bored: .

If they were genuinely abused by MJ they would just get their story out there without wanting money. They could of just stuck to interviews as they'll make money from that. Plus Wade has his little scam charity website, this whole thing reeks of greed am afraid.

[Kazanne]

Is Wade Robson lying here on the sofa laughing with the host

2VNw6vtUvks

[GoldHeart]

Is Wade Robson lying here on the sofa laughing with the host

2VNw6vtUvks

That video sums it up

Wade looked like he was having a Eminem complex back then :hee: , he knew from then what was right & wrong and he knew exactly what child abuse was . in fact he completely denies it in such a strong way . His family defend MJ as well , so if he knew all along he was being abused this doesn't fit with his story :bored: .

[user104658]

Is Wade Robson lying here on the sofa laughing with the host



2VNw6vtUvksKazanne there's nothing in that video that we haven't seen 20 times before and hasn't been discussed as many times!

Sorry at this point I have to just say in advance, I listened to what you said about people not watching the video "evidence" you were posting so I've been trying to do the courtesy of actually watching them, but I'm not going to click on any more because it's an utter waste of everyone's time. Half of this "revealing" footage of Robson was in the documentary and yet its being presented here as some sort of evidence. Or rather, "Eviedances Wade are LYING to money gettings" or whatever.

The video shows literally nothing. It shows that some kids who spent time with MJ defend him; we already knew this. It shows that Wade defended him as a kid and in his early 20's; we already knew this. It says "and then he changed his story!"; obviously, we already know this. And people are like "WHY? For what possible reason? How do you explain that?" - - That's what the entire 4 hour documentary is about!

[Beso]

Also another important inconsistency is Wade claiming the dinner he had at neverland with mj & his family was the moment he felt he had to testify in court for Michael as he didn't want to take mj away from his kids , but that dinner happened after he already stood in court for mj defending him :facepalm: .

I thought the hbo website cut chunks out ,but must be on other websites. I watched a couple YouTube videos about it where both halves was chopped down .





Did he only have one dinner with Michael, in all those years...That's a bit stingy is it not?

[Beso]

The money thing seems to be the only thing that will hurt mj and his family who are abusing his name...who the he'll do the family think they are?

Easily accepting the bad things michael went through with no proof but oh no...not the bad things he did..bunch of greedy hypocrites just in it for themselves and the money they will lose....

[GoldHeart]

Did he only have one dinner with Michael, in all those years...That's a bit stingy is it not?

This particular dinner he described was supposed to be before the trial, but turns out it was after he'd already testified. Taj confirmed this.

[Beso]

This particular dinner he described was supposed to be before the trial, but turns out it was after he'd already testified. Taj confirmed this.

Clutching at straws...


How many people can honestly say they remember every time and date of every dinner....


Next people will be posting youtube videos to prove the world's flat or aliens walk among us....youtube.lol.

[Beso]

That video sums it up

Wade looked like he was having a Eminem complex back then :hee: , he knew from then what was right & wrong and he knew exactly what child abuse was . in fact he completely denies it in such a strong way . His family defend MJ as well , so if he knew all along he was being abused this doesn't fit with his story :bored: .





Watching the docu the other night I saw him dressed as Eminem. ..I thought that he looked so young and impressionable....maybe Michael had him fitted out with the hair and clothes so he could feel like he was abusing Eminem at night.

[GoldHeart]

Clutching at straws...


How many people can honestly say they remember every time and date of every dinner....


Next people will be posting youtube videos to prove the world's flat or aliens walk among us....youtube.lol.

Well the description rang a bell for Taj as Wade said they were ALL there .

You're clutching at straws for thinking it's a different family dinner , I can understand why you'd say it but honestly there's so many contradictions in leaving Neverland that I believe Wade messed up on this detail as well .

[user104658]

OK so I said I'd have a look and I have. Most of this is from a roughly 20-minute section of the 2nd part starting at around 55 minutes in;



Things that don't make sense is Wade's wife claiming she had never experienced abuse & has no knowledge of it ,but on their charity page it says she's a survivor of abuse

She says that she didn't know much about it was naive about child abuse and the psychological effects it can have going into adulthood. She certainly never outright says that she hasn't experienced abuse. You could argue that it's implied, I suppose. Then again: I can't find the website where it says she was, either, so I don't know if someone has a link to that?

The birthday message is edited weird & misleading as it was recorded months before Wade's birthday.

I couldn't find this (I'm not rewatching all 4 hours) but I guess I'd ask how anyone claims to know when a message was recorded?

Jimmy says he told his mother in 2005 that mj was a "bad person" , but he's changed that story and said in 2013 that's when he told his mum about the abuse.

As far as the documentary goes, this story doesn't change? He (and she) say that he told his mother in 2005 when she was prying about why he was refusing to testify on Jackson's behalf, but he made her swear not to tell anyone else and that he never wanted to go public. Later he goes on to say that in 2013, seeing Wade talk about the abuse prompted him to contact Wade and then come forward himself. Again, is there a link elsewhere that suggests he now says he told his mum in 2013? Because it doesn't say that in the documentary. It consistently says "told his mum in 2005, asked her not to tell anyone, then told more people (such as his wife) in 2013".

Also another important inconsistency is Wade claiming the dinner he had at neverland with mj & his family was the moment he felt he had to testify in court for Michael as he didn't want to take mj away from his kids , but that dinner happened after he already stood in court for mj defending him :facepalm:

This one seems to be down to a misunderstanding. Wade initially says that he decided to testify because his mum (not MJ's lawyer as I thought, my error) said "Can you imagine someone like Michael in jail?" and said that "Only him and Macaulay could save Michael from that". He then does mention going to the Jackson's for dinner and seeing Paris clinging to Michael's arm, and that that convinced him even more to do it. That dinner was before the trial - he was there with his mother and sister. This is at about 0:55 in part 2. At 1:11 in part 2, Wade describes a completely different dinner that he had at the Jackson house with his wife, not long before MJ died, at which Michael was drinking heavily and went to bed early but his kids didn't seem bothered and said it was pretty normal, and that "that was the last time he saw him" because he died not long after.

I think people must be muddling this up and think he's talking about the same occasion but it's pretty clear watching it back that he's talking about two different dinners several years apart.

[user104658]

This particular dinner he described was supposed to be before the trial, but turns out it was after he'd already testified. Taj confirmed this.

Oh so the only evidence that the dinner was after the testimony is the word of a Jackson family member who is already vocally defending MJ in various ways? FFS that isn't "evidence". Come on.

[joeysteele]

I can remember all dinners I had and the people who were with me.
Even moreso as a child, from 10 onwards certainly.


Look, this pair have said, with no conflicting of words.
For decades, that MJ never abused them.

One of these 2 Mothers repeatedly asked her son had her son been abused by him.
Asking him one to one, he firmly and categorically said NO.

When I was a child, if anyone had done anything with me and said, we mustn't reveal it or we'd both end up in prison.

Even were I not to say anything about it myself, one thing I'd never have done is go back continuously and be alone with that person.
No way at all.

Furthermore, in court under oath and cross examination,.the evidence given at the trial as a witness, their account never changed.
Pressed and pressed by prosecuting counsel, the maintaining MJ never ever abused them was stuck to.

Now on just talking to a camera, no challenge, not even any questioning whatsoever.
These are holier than thou, 100% reliable witnesses and revealing truth.

All they've said for decades, even after not seeing MJ much or at all in later years,while he was alive.
Is now discounted.
Believing them now, when they waited until after the death of MJ

It stinks to high heaven and I'd condemn no one on the strength of what these 2 are saying.
No way at all.

I'd like to see them cross examined on their new claims.
See how many tongue tying inaccuracies start to come to the fore.
I'd dare bet a good number would.

Of course they now know with MJ dead, they'll never need to do that.
Despite, if telling the truth now,(which I don't believe they are), then clearly lying through their teeth for decades and even in a court under oath.

Unbelievable.

[GoldHeart]

Is Wade Robson lying here on the sofa laughing with the host

2VNw6vtUvks

I think he's telling truth with his family,see how they all defend mj .
I believe he's now lying through his teeth.

[Niamh.]

Oh so the only evidence that the dinner was after the testimony is the word of a Jackson family member who is already vocally defending MJ in various ways? FFS that isn't "evidence". Come on.

How would Taj know what "particular" dinner he was talking about anyway?

[GoldHeart]

How would Taj know what "particular" dinner he was talking about anyway?

Well clearly the timing Taj remembered , and they all had dinner after Wade testified.

Why wouldn't you know which dinner? Especially considering MJ had his 2005 court case ,pretty sure that would be a milestone.

[Niamh.]

Well clearly the timing Taj remembered , and they all had dinner after Wade testified.

Why wouldn't you know which dinner? Especially considering MJ had his 2005 court case ,pretty sure that would be a milestone.

Also why would we take one guys word as gospel ............it's as much "proof" as Wades word :shrug:

[GoldHeart]

Also why would we take one guys word as gospel ............it's as much "proof" as Wades word :shrug:

:joker: yet people believe Wade & Jimmy who's lied & changed their stories LOGIC! .

Unless Taj has a bad memory I can't see why he'd lie about this dinner timing ?

[thesheriff443]

Logic tells you it’s not appropriate to sleep with kids.

Even my own daughter who is autistic, wanted a snuggle in bed but at her being twelve I felt she was too old and would make excuses about bugs so she had to sleep in her bed.

[Niamh.]

:joker: yet people believe Wade & Jimmy who's lied & changed their stories LOGIC! .

Unless Taj has a bad memory I can't see why he'd lie about this dinner timing ?

hhhhm what possible reason could there be?.............umm to discredit Wade maybe?

Ohhh and I just found this out, not sure if it's already been posted or not but people using Corey Feldman as someone who MJ didn't abuse, did you all know this though??

‘GROSSED OUT’ Michael Jackson made me look at naked photos when I was 13, child star Corey Feldman claims
Feldman, 47, was befriended by the adult singer after he shot to fame in hit movies such as Gremlins and The Goonies

COREY Feldman claims a 35-year-old Michael Jackson showed him “inappropriate” photos of naked men and women when he was aged 13.

The former child actor, 47, was befriended by the adult superstar singer after he appeared in hit movies such as Gremlins, The Goonies and Stand By Me.

And despite claiming that Jackson never sexually abused him, Corey has admitted that there were things that happened between the pair which he says were “inappropriate.”

The Lost Boys star, who says he was sexually abused by paedophile predators in Hollywood, spoke about Jackson during the singer’s 2005 molestation trial.

ABC's Martin Bashir asked Corey if the Thriller star had ever acted inappropriately towards him.

The actor said: "If you consider it inappropriate for a man to look at a book of naked pictures with a child that's 13 or 14 years old - then your answer would be yes.

"We went to his apartment, and I noticed a book that he had out on his coffee table.

“The book contained pictures of grown men and women naked. And the book was focused on venereal diseases and the genitalia."

“I was kind of grossed out by it. I didn't think of it as a big deal.

INAPPROPRIATE BEHAVIOUR
“And for all these years, I probably never thought twice about it - but in light of recent evidence, I have to say that if my son was 14 years old - 13 years old, and went to a man's apartment that was 35, and I knew that they were sitting down together talking about this, I would probably beat his ass."

Michael Jackson strongly denied all allegations of sexual abuse made against him.

The star was cleared of all counts of child sex abuse and grooming of Gavin Arvizo in criminal trial in 2005.

This comes as Corey has accused Hollywood of ignoring its paedophile problem in the wake of the explosive Jackson documentary.

I was raped of my innocence

Feldman, 47, said the film industry had made amends for its treatment of women but has still not addressed the alleged abuse of kids.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8305159/michael-jackson-nude-photos-corey-feldman/

[Niamh.]

I can remember all dinners I had and the people who were with me.
Even moreso as a child, from 10 onwards certainly.


Look, this pair have said, with no conflicting of words.
For decades, that MJ never abused them.

One of these 2 Mothers repeatedly asked her son had her son been abused by him.
Asking him one to one, he firmly and categorically said NO.

When I was a child, if anyone had done anything with me and said, we mustn't reveal it or we'd both end up in prison.

Even were I not to say anything about it myself, one thing I'd never have done is go back continuously and be alone with that person.
No way at all.

Furthermore, in court under oath and cross examination,.the evidence given at the trial as a witness, their account never changed.
Pressed and pressed by prosecuting counsel, the maintaining MJ never ever abused them was stuck to.

Now on just talking to a camera, no challenge, not even any questioning whatsoever.
These are holier than thou, 100% reliable witnesses and revealing truth.

All they've said for decades, even after not seeing MJ much or at all in later years,while he was alive.
Is now discounted.
Believing them now, when they waited until after the death of MJ

It stinks to high heaven and I'd condemn no one on the strength of what these 2 are saying.
No way at all.

I'd like to see them cross examined on their new claims.
See how many tongue tying inaccuracies start to come to the fore.
I'd dare bet a good number would.

Of course they now know with MJ dead, they'll never need to do that.
Despite, if telling the truth now,(which I don't believe they are), then clearly lying through their teeth for decades and even in a court under oath.

Unbelievable.

Really? You remember every dinner you had since you were 10?

[Kazanne]

Another insightful video
8qvnzlvDuSY

[Kazanne]

:joker: yet people believe Wade & Jimmy who's lied & changed their stories LOGIC! .

Unless Taj has a bad memory I can't see why he'd lie about this dinner timing ?

Well if you can remember graphic details times and dates as a 7 year old you must have a photographic memory,so I would expect him to remember the dinners but as explained in the last video posted his memory isn't so good:laugh:

[AnnieK]

Well if you can remember graphic details times and dates as a 7 year old you must have a photographic memory,so I would expect him to remember the dinners but as explained in the last video posted his memory isn't so good:laugh:

Remembering abuse is a bit different to remember exact dates and times of dinners :laugh:

Must we all document every time we eat now, who with, where, who else was there.....on the off chance in the future, we need to recall every little detail :laugh:

[AnnieK]

I can remember all dinners I had and the people who were with me.
Even moreso as a child, from 10 onwards certainly.


Look, this pair have said, with no conflicting of words.
For decades, that MJ never abused them.

One of these 2 Mothers repeatedly asked her son had her son been abused by him.
Asking him one to one, he firmly and categorically said NO.

When I was a child, if anyone had done anything with me and said, we mustn't reveal it or we'd both end up in prison.

Even were I not to say anything about it myself, one thing I'd never have done is go back continuously and be alone with that person.
No way at all.

Furthermore, in court under oath and cross examination,.the evidence given at the trial as a witness, their account never changed.
Pressed and pressed by prosecuting counsel, the maintaining MJ never ever abused them was stuck to.

Now on just talking to a camera, no challenge, not even any questioning whatsoever.
These are holier than thou, 100% reliable witnesses and revealing truth.

All they've said for decades, even after not seeing MJ much or at all in later years,while he was alive.
Is now discounted.
Believing them now, when they waited until after the death of MJ

It stinks to high heaven and I'd condemn no one on the strength of what these 2 are saying.
No way at all.

I'd like to see them cross examined on their new claims.
See how many tongue tying inaccuracies start to come to the fore.
I'd dare bet a good number would.

Of course they now know with MJ dead, they'll never need to do that.
Despite, if telling the truth now,(which I don't believe they are), then clearly lying through their teeth for decades and even in a court under oath.

Unbelievable.

How is that even possible? You remember dates, locations, people with you of every time you have eaten out since being 10?? Do you document it or just remember?

I can barely remember who I had dinner with last month, let alone years ago. Its a skill that

[Kazanne]

Remembering abuse is a bit different to remember exact dates and times of dinners :laugh:

Must we all document every time we eat now, who with, where, who else was there.....on the off chance in the future, we need to recall every little detail :laugh:

No ,Annie he remembered exact times of the alleged abuse not the dinners

[AnnieK]

No ,Annie he remembered exact times of the alleged abuse not the dinners

But that makes sense though Kaz......I hate to bring it up, but with your past experience I am sure you will remember exactly what happened, (times dates, locations etc) to you....but then can you remember the times you had dinner around that time and who you were with??

Those types of things tend to be a bit more ingrained than day to day things surely?

Unless I'm misunderstanding this

[Samm]

Well if you can remember graphic details times and dates as a 7 year old you must have a photographic memory,so I would expect him to remember the dinners but as explained in the last video posted his memory isn't so good:laugh:

He remembers graphic details because they stand out as not ordinary, I can visually remember myself as a child remembering moments in my childhood that stand out to me because they were frightening and scary, where’s if you told me to remember a specific dinner I had when I was a child I probably won’t be able to

Halfway through the documentary, I do believe their stories, no one who hasn’t got bad intentions invites a young child to bed with them who they don’t know.

[Niamh.]

He remembers graphic details because they stand out as not ordinary, I can visually remember myself as a child remembering moments in my childhood that stand out to me because they were frightening and scary, where’s if you told me to remember a specific dinner I had when I was a child I probably won’t be able to

Halfway through the documentary, I do believe their stories, no one who hasn’t got bad intentions invites a young child to bed with them who they don’t know.

Yep and even Corey Feldman who testified that he didn't abuse him (which I believe btw as Corey is a victim of child sexual abuse and has no difficulty speaking about it) says he showed him porn at age 13...... that is saying that his relationships with kids were not pure and innocent at all

[Kazanne]

But that makes sense though Kaz......I hate to bring it up, but with your past experience I am sure you will remember exactly what happened, (times dates, locations etc) to you....but then can you remember the times you had dinner around that time and who you were with??

Those types of things tend to be a bit more ingrained than day to day things surely?

Unless I'm misunderstanding this

I cant remember the date and time Annie , just that it was summer and I was 9, I can remember special occasion dinners as they were special,but day to day dinners no , which I think the other person probably meant, don't worry about bringing it up, luckily it was dealt with quite quickly because I have a big mouth :laugh:

[joeysteele]

Really? You remember every dinner you had since you were 10?

Yes actually I do.

Special dinners and treats yes.

I recall all good and special times, especially when its spent with people I wanted to be with.

At 10 and early teens to be at special meals and occasions with special relatives and friends.
All my schoolfriends parties and them at mine too.

Should I go on.
As my memory is actually red hot as to my life.
I can even remember my Grandmother taking me to my first lunch in a cafe at 4 years old and her lifting me onto a stool.

Yes, I can remember.
No need for me to make anything up.

[Niamh.]

Yes actually I do.

Special dinners and treats yes.

I recall all good and special times, especially when its spent with people I wanted to be with.

At 10 and early teens to be at special meals and occasions with special relatives and friends.
All my schoolfriends parties and them at mine too.

Should I go on.
As my memory is actually red hot as to my life.
I can even remember my Grandmother taking me to my first lunch in a cafe at 4 years old and her lifting me onto a stool.

Yes, I can remember.
No need for me to make anything up.

Well considering how **** hot your memory is you should have no trouble convincing Kazanne then that yes infact, if people can remember every dinner they had since they were 10 they almost certainly will remember exact details of having been sexually abused

[Kazanne]

Well considering how **** hot your memory is you should have no trouble convincing Kazanne then that yes infact, if people can remember every dinner they had since they were 10 they almost certainly will remember exact details of having been sexually abused

Joey didn't say every dinner he said ,special dinners surely we all remember those, and yes I remember being abused but not the time and date.

[Niamh.]

He didn't say every dinner he said ,special dinners surely we all remember those

Since I was 10? Nope. But if you agree that people would remember special dinners then how on Earth can you argue that they wouldn't remember being abused? That makes zero sense unless you think eating food is more memorable than being abused?

[Kazanne]

Since I was 10? Nope. But if you agree that people would remember special dinners then how on Earth can you argue that they wouldn't remember being abused? That makes zero sense unless you think eating food is more memorable than being abused?

I never said they wouldn't remember,but dates and times,C'mon

[Niamh.]

I never said they wouldn't remember,but dates and times,C'mon

I assume they got the dates by association with certain things/asking parents what dates they were there etc?

[user104658]

Really? You remember every dinner you had since you were 10?

Yes actually I do.


..........do you have eidetic memory, Joey? Have you looked into it? Because if this is true; I can assure you, it isn't usual, it is extremely rare.

[joeysteele]

Well considering how **** hot your memory is you should have no trouble convincing Kazanne then that yes infact, if people can remember every dinner they had since they were 10 they almost certainly will remember exact details of having been sexually abused

Why the blotting out.
I said red hot not a swear word.

I would hold the view people could remember dates and times they were abused.

However on such as dinners and occasions, they are good memories.
I'd doubt being abused is.

Actually I will do no convincing of Kazanne at all thank you.
Unlike myself she has been abused and has shared that, I think courageously.

I will show her the respect she should have as to that and not constantly just nitpick.
She knows how she felt, what she recalls and I'd guess they're at times painful memories.

She speaks from experience however.
I admire and respect her incredibly for even trying to guide us on the issue.

What I admire too re Kazanne, is her more respect for law and not willing to override the law on the strength only of 2, ( being generous to them here), apparent liars.

[joeysteele]

..........do you have eidetic memory, Joey? Have you looked into it? Because if this is true; I can assure you, it isn't usual, it is extremely rare.

No, just a brilliant memory.
My family call me the encyclopedia of family matters.
I can recall in an instant, conversations, events, dates and times.
It's a massive bonus in my work too.

So I won't be looking into it.
No requirement for sarcasm.

I simply have a brilliant memory, pure and simple.

[Beso]

Why the blotting out.
I said red hot not a swear word.

I would hold the view people could remember dates and times they were abused.

However on such as dinners and occasions, they are good memories.
I'd doubt being abused is.

Actually I will do no convincing of Kazanne at all thank you.
Unlike myself she has been abused and has shared that, I think courageously.

I will show her the respect she should have as to that and not constantly just nitpick.
She knows how she felt, what she recalls and I'd guess they're at times painful memories.

She speaks from experience however.
I admire and respect her incredibly for even trying to guide us on the issue.s.

:clap1:

[Niamh.]

Why the blotting out.

I said red hot not a swear word.



I would hold the view people could remember dates and times they were abused.



However on such as dinners and occasions, they are good memories.

I'd doubt being abused is.



Actually I will do no convincing of Kazanne at all thank you.

Unlike myself she has been abused and has shared that, I think courageously.



I will show her the respect she should have as to that and not constantly just nitpick.

She knows how she felt, what she recalls and I'd guess they're at times painful memories.



She speaks from experience however.

I admire and respect her incredibly for even trying to guide us on the issue.



What I admire too re Kazanne, is her more respect for law and not willing to override the law on the strength only of 2, ( being generous to them here), apparent liars.I wasn't talking about Kazannes personal experiences at all Joey and I find it very unfair and below the belt that you would insinuate that I was.

[user104658]

No, just a brilliant memory.

My family call me the encyclopedia of family matters.

I can recall in an instant, conversations, events, dates and times.

It's a massive bonus in my work too.



So I won't be looking into it.

No requirement for sarcasm.



I simply have a brilliant memory, pure and simple.It's not sarcasm; if you do have a memory that is capable of these things then you're very lucky but I do think it's worth pointing out that it's also very rare, and you probably shouldn't judge situations based on the idea that it's usual and that other people (such as MJ's nephew) are likely to be able to remember every single dinner party.

[GoldHeart]

Joey didn't say every dinner he said ,special dinners surely we all remember those, and yes I remember being abused but not the time and date.

Especially if the dinner is a milestone with family members

[Vicky.]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8290055/who-is-michael-jacobshagen-michael-jacksons-sex-abuse-accuser-and-author/

Name I haven't seen before in all of this, and not seeking cash either.

Michael Jackson called the 14-year-old his ‘Rubba Rubba’ boy and would grind on him in bed, it’s been claimed.

Author Michael Jacobshagen, now 35, has come forward to accuse the pop superstar of abuse and lift the lid on their bizarre two-decade relationship.

He met the King of Pop in Paris in 1995 and was invited on his European tour two years later where he infamously spent three weeks with the singer in a hotel suite.

And now as harrowing doc Leaving Neverland has aired claims of child sex abuse from two alleged victims, Jacobshagen has told how he too shared a bed with the star.

"When I slept in his bed, we wore just boxer shorts and he would put his arm around me and push his body to my body, like you would with a girlfriend,” Jacobshagen told the Sunday Mirror.

“He would put our bodies on each other and kiss me on the head and cheek. I woke many times and his hands were on me... one hand on the top of my legs and one hand around me."

Jacobshagen said the touching would become more intense when Michael was high on his medication.

“He’d pull me closer and be grabbing me more and kissing me more on the head and on the cheek, he would also stroke my hair," he claimed.

[joeysteele]

It's not sarcasm; if you do have a memory that is capable of these things then you're very lucky but I do think it's worth pointing out that it's also very rare, and you probably shouldn't judge situations based on the idea that it's usual and that other people (such as MJ's nephew) are likely to be able to remember every single dinner party.



I think I'll judge things and what people say and how they act as I wish.
I don't need you or anyone telling me what I should or should not be doing.

As long as I'm not breaking rules or the law.

[bots]

Name I haven't seen before in all of this, and not seeking cash either.

jacobshagen

well that name is abuse for starters :laugh:

[user104658]

I think I'll judge things and what people say and how they act as I wish.
I don't need you or anyone telling me what I should or should not be doing.

As long as I'm not breaking rules or the law.

Obviously you're free to do what you want and you're free to continue to believe that most people can remember every dinner they've had with family / friends from decades in the past, I'm just saying... you're wrong and most people's memories don't work like that. But by all means, press on.

[Matthew.]

57 pages jesus christ

A lengthy discussion

[Kazanne]

57 pages jesus christ

A lengthy discussion

A good debate,mostly

[Marsh.]

It might be "convenient" or for some reason amusing to you Marsh but it is also true; there is no "standard reaction" for victims of abuse or emotional trauma.

I never said it wasn't true. Sorry, you wasted your time trying to patronise me.

I said it's pointless spouting it as "evidence" as it's not very convincing evidence is it?

No matter their behaviour it could be because of childhood abuse. It could just as easily not. In the context of this discussion, us all not actually knowing any of the people involved in the whole affair, it's useless.

Obviously. :idc:

Edit - Oh and FYI, I wasn't saying it was "convenient" for victims of abuse, but rather convenient for the people twisting words in this thread.

[joeysteele]

Obviously you're free to do what you want and you're free to continue to believe that most people can remember every dinner they've had with family / friends from decades in the past, I'm just saying... you're wrong and most people's memories don't work like that. But by all means, press on.


Do you actually bother to read posts properly.

I said I could remember.
Not everyone.
I can't speak for others.

I also said I held the view people 'could' recall most or all.
Not that that was certain and that it was my view.

You are being rather annoying.
If you can only wrongly nitpick at posts and not use them in their full context.

Possibly, note I say possibly, the problem is yours not mine.

[user104658]

Do you actually bother to read posts properly.

I said I could remember.
Not everyone.
I can't speak for others.
.

Does your ability to remember things have anything at all to do with the Jackson case or statements made by his family or accusers? Surely the only reason you mentioned that you can remember the specifics of dinner parties, was to back up that claim that Jackson's nephew remembers the specifics of the dinner parties Wade Robson attended.

I was saying that - regardless OF YOUR abilities with memory - it's not very likely that Jackson's nephew does remember these details so clearly.

[Denver]

It's clear as day he is a pedo

[GoldHeart]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8290055/who-is-michael-jacobshagen-michael-jacksons-sex-abuse-accuser-and-author/

Name I haven't seen before in all of this, and not seeking cash either.

Once again all this is OLD rubbish that was debunked .

That German guy was selling fake mj memorabilia online and he got caught out ! .

[joeysteele]

Does your ability to remember things have anything at all to do with the Jackson case or statements made by his family or accusers? Surely the only reason you mentioned that you can remember the specifics of dinner parties, was to back up that claim that Jackson's nephew remembers the specifics of the dinner parties Wade Robson attended.

I was saying that - regardless OF YOUR abilities with memory - it's not very likely that Jackson's nephew does remember these details so clearly.

I have, without needing to, entertained your barrage of questioning for long enough.

You should be well aware of my feelings and conclusions I've made on this issue, after listening to all now, people on here, off here, this pair of accusers themselves, plus what is past on the issue too.

Your constant nitpicking and subtle digs at things I say as to my excellent memory and my judgements etc.
Is really wearing very thin now.

Read through my posts if really interested in my thinking on this, there are plenty of them.
If not really interested and you therefore are just pressing on with, what I see, I stress what personally I see, just possible irritating nonsense.

Well kindly move on to someone else who is bothered to deal with that.

[Vicky.]

Once again all this is OLD rubbish that was debunked .

That German guy was selling fake mj memorabilia online and he got caught out ! .

Fair enough, I am not as invested in this as you are so will bow to your knowledge. Was just a name that came up on a thread elsewhere that I had not seen before. I still don't believe that all the boys/men who have said they were abused are doing it just for the cash though. Its highly unlikely, one or two yeah fair enough, but theres been I think 7 overall? Each one is discredited immediately and money seeking, including the staff who say they saw dodgy stuff...always some reason to disbelieve, which tbh comes across as nothing but...pure faith. Not looking at things objectively.

Anyway, I decided I would leave the thread pages back but keep reading it and getting sucked in. So, attempting to leave again now as its just going round in circles tbh :laugh:

[Vicky.]

Also before I go, I really don't think TS is just nitpicking here, It IS highly unusual for anyone to remember every dinner they have had since aged 10. I believe you joey, however its not the norm at all, you really do have quite a skill there. Thats not me trying to be patronising or whatever, it really is unusual and, quite amazing tbh.

[chuff me dizzy]

I wish people would stop comparing Saville to MJ :notimpressed: . Saville never stood trial whereas MJ did ,plus there was evidence to prove Saville was GUILTY .

BOTH paedophiles so fine to be compared

[user104658]

I have, without needing to, entertained your barrage of questioning for long enough.

You should be well aware of my feelings and conclusions I've made on this issue, after listening to all now, people on here, off here, this pair of accusers themselves, plus what is past on the issue too.

Your constant nitpicking and subtle digs at things I say as to my excellent memory and my judgements etc.
Is really wearing very thin now.

Read through my posts if really interested in my thinking on this, there are plenty of them.
If not really interested and you therefore are just pressing on with, what I see, I stress what personally I see, just possible irritating nonsense.

Well kindly move on to someone else who is bothered to deal with that.

If you don't want to debate then don't debate Joey but I'm afraid being questioned and "nitpicking" is part of debating a topic. If you want to just "have your say" and have that etched in stone without questioning, or if being questioned and asked to qualify statements that are of questionable logic and come with sometimes frankly outlandish claims - (for example; "it's usual for people to remember every dinner they've ever been to because I have an excellent memory") then why are you engaging in debate?

If you find being pushed and questioned on your statements "irritating nonsense", and being asked to justify those statements somehow "offensive", then I would suggest that debate and discussion forums are not your most advisable pastime? Though of course that is entirely up to you, I'm not "telling you what to do!!", as I know perceived orders are another thing you're not fond of.

However... no, I'm not going to "move on" and let your posts go unchallenged - in a debate forum - because you don't like being questioned. If you can't be bothered with it feel free to ignore those questions, but I will still be asking them.

[Kazanne]

BOTH paedophiles so fine to be compared

You said that about Cliff Richards Chuff,he was also found not guilty,it cant be the 'laws' fault all the time surely.

[Kazanne]

If you don't want to debate then don't debate Joey but I'm afraid being questioned and "nitpicking" is part of debating a topic. If you want to just "have your say" and have that etched in stone without questioning, or if being questioned and asked to qualify statements that are of questionable logic and come with sometimes frankly outlandish claims - (for example; "it's usual for people to remember every dinner they've ever been to because I have an excellent memory") then why are you engaging in debate?

If you find being pushed and questioned on your statements "irritating nonsense", and being asked to justify those statements somehow "offensive", then I would suggest that debate and discussion forums are not your most advisable pastime? Though of course that is entirely up to you, I'm not "telling you what to do!!", as I know perceived orders are another thing you're not fond of.

However... no, I'm not going to "move on" and let your posts go unchallenged - in a debate forum - because you don't like being questioned. If you can't be bothered with it feel free to ignore those questions, but I will still be asking them.


I don't mind being questioned it's when it's the same old,same old it becomes monotonous, you believe them,we don't pretty simple really, and really no need to be so condescending to Joey , you know no more than us.

[joeysteele]

If you don't want to debate then don't debate Joey but I'm afraid being questioned and "nitpicking" is part of debating a topic. If you want to just "have your say" and have that etched in stone without questioning, or if being questioned and asked to qualify statements that are of questionable logic and come with sometimes frankly outlandish claims - (for example; "it's usual for people to remember every dinner they've ever been to because I have an excellent memory") then why are you engaging in debate?

If you find being pushed and questioned on your statements "irritating nonsense", and being asked to justify those statements somehow "offensive", then I would suggest that debate and discussion forums are not your most advisable pastime? Though of course that is entirely up to you, I'm not "telling you what to do!!", as I know perceived orders are another thing you're not fond of.

However... no, I'm not going to "move on" and let your posts go unchallenged - in a debate forum - because you don't like being questioned. If you can't be bothered with it feel free to ignore those questions, but I will still be asking them.

Challenge any post of mine you like however by now you must know my position on this, as I've listed it and debated same with you.

Keeping on coming back however, when my position is clear, as yours is to me too, and I don't agree with you on this and likely never will.
Is a waste of time and energy.

So do what you like but don't expect responses from me.
If you wish to waste your time that's fine.
I however have no wish to waste mine.

[user104658]

I don't mind being questioned it's when it's the same old,same old it becomes monotonous, you believe them,we don't pretty simple really

You would think so but apparently not; how many times has the phrase "proven liars!" been used in this thread? You and others have argued as strongly for your beliefs as those who disagree with you have so why are you pretending that it's any different? Yes it's often the same arguments over and over again... but on all sides - don't be a hypocrite.

and really no need to be so condescending to Joey , you know no more than us.

I wouldn't have thought Joey needs you to speak for him and I also haven't claimed to know more than anyone else - all I said was that if one isn't prepared to have their statements questioned then they MIGHT think twice before stating them but I also pointed out that that's entirely Joey's business. Other than that I only said that, no, I won't "move on to someone else" and stop questioning things that I disagree with because someone thinks it's "wearing thin" and finds it "irritating"... and that is entirely my business.

[user104658]

Challenge any post of mine you like however by now you must know my position on this, as I've listed it and debated same with you.

Keeping on coming back however, when my position is clear, as yours is to me too, and I don't agree with you on this and likely never will.
Is a waste of time and energy.



When I challenge people's opinions I'm not necessarily looking to change that person's mind, I'm stating my view for the benefit of the conversation as a whole, so whether or not your opinion will change is not really relevant.

So do what you like but don't expect responses from me.
If you wish to waste your time that's fine.
I however have no wish to waste mine.

That's fair enough and all I've asked for. I'll continue to quote and comment on your posts if I disagree with what you're saying, again for the benefit of the conversation as a whole not to try to change your mind, but you're under no obligation to respond or even read my posts.

[Beso]

Another telling fact about this is that everyone claiming to have had stuff done and the people who claim to have seen things...and the le toya reveal.....well, they all tie in with what he is accused off...to me that is to big a coincidence to ignore.....he had a certain type and taste, and all these claims prove that.

[chuff me dizzy]

You said that about Cliff Richards Chuff,he was also found not guilty,it cant be the 'laws' fault all the time surely.

Wait until after he dies

[chuff me dizzy]

Another telling fact about this is that everyone claiming to have had stuff done and the people who claim to have seen things...and the le toya reveal.....well, they all tie in with what he is accused off...to me that is to big a coincidence to ignore.....he had a certain type and taste, and all these claims prove that.

:clap1:

[chuff me dizzy]

You would think so but apparently not; how many times has the phrase "proven liars!" been used in this thread? You and others have argued as strongly for your beliefs as those who disagree with you have so why are you pretending that it's any different? Yes it's often the same arguments over and over again... but on all sides - don't be a hypocrite.



I wouldn't have thought Joey needs you to speak for him and I also haven't claimed to know more than anyone else - all I said was that if one isn't prepared to have their statements questioned then they MIGHT think twice before stating them but I also pointed out that that's entirely Joey's business. Other than that I only said that, no, I won't "move on to someone else" and stop questioning things that I disagree with because someone thinks it's "wearing thin" and finds it "irritating"... and that is entirely my business.

Ive asked for proof from someone ( Not Kaz or Joey) who has repeatably called Jimmy and Wade this ,Im still waiting for his proof

[Niamh.]

Ive asked for proof from someone ( Not Kaz or Joey) who has repeatably called Jimmy and Wade this ,Im still waiting for his proof

The proof is that they already lied at MJs trial........therefore he did abuse them?

[Epic.]

Another telling fact about this is that everyone claiming to have had stuff done and the people who claim to have seen things...and the le toya reveal.....well, they all tie in with what he is accused off...to me that is to big a coincidence to ignore.....he had a certain type and taste, and all these claims prove that.

I looked into the LaToya detail and it doesn't correlate with these claims at all. At the time she had a very abusive boyfriend and had a history of being made say things she wouldn't have wanted to otherwise, one of which being the accusation of calling her brother a pedophile. IF he was, I doubt he'd comfortably tell any family members about it

[chuff me dizzy]

I looked into the LaToya detail and it doesn't correlate with these claims at all. At the time she had a very abusive boyfriend and had a history of being made say things she wouldn't have wanted to otherwise, one of which being the accusation of calling her brother a pedophile. IF he was, I doubt he'd comfortably tell any family members about it

3 times La Toya made the same claims, years apart ..Not just once

[AnnieK]

I looked into the LaToya detail and it doesn't correlate with these claims at all. At the time she had a very abusive boyfriend and had a history of being made say things she wouldn't have wanted to otherwise, one of which being the accusation of calling her brother a pedophile. IF he was, I doubt he'd comfortably tell any family members about it

I highly doubt he told anyone if he was abusing. If true, I would imagine La Toya was talking about things she saw and what she had witnessed herself, not that Michael had said "hey, guess what, I am a pedophile!"

[chuff me dizzy]

I highly doubt he told anyone if he was abusing. If true, I would imagine La Toya was talking about things she saw and what she had witnessed herself, not that Michael had said "hey, guess what, I am a pedophile!"

She also spoke of her mother hush money writing cheques for the abused children and their families

[Beso]

I looked into the LaToya detail and it doesn't correlate with these claims at all. At the time she had a very abusive boyfriend and had a history of being made say things she wouldn't have wanted to otherwise, one of which being the accusation of calling her brother a pedophile. IF he was, I doubt he'd comfortably tell any family members about it

Or you could interprete it as la toya telling her husband all about it and then him saying "hey hun, you really should say something, your brother is a dangerous man" then legally after the "family had got their hands on her she could easily say that her husband "told" her to say it...I'm assuming another cheque was written in la toya name this time though.

[Beso]

You are correct though epic, she did have a history of having to say things she didn't want to say...things like.

Michael aint a pedo...Jermaines fault.

[Twosugars]

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2019/mar/15/michael-jackson-fan-groups-france-lawsuit


Michael Jackson fan groups to sue accusers for 'sullying his memory'
Robson Wade and James Safechuck, who in HBO documentary accuse Jackson of child sex abuse, face legal action in France

Three Michael Jackson fan groups are suing his alleged victims in France for “sullying his memory” by taking part in the Leaving Neverland documentary, the fans’ lawyer told Agence France-Presse on Friday.

The Michael Jackson Community – which claims to be the “official fan club forum” – and the MJ Street and On The Line groups accuse Robson Wade and James Safechuck of “lynching” Jackson.

The case, which will heard by a court in Orléans in northern France in July, follows reports that Jackson’s children were also considering taking legal action against the men, who say that Jackson sexually abused them when they were children.

Lawyer Emmanuel Ludot, who has previously successfully sued Jackson’s doctor for causing distress to his fans by giving him the drugs that killed him, said the groups “want to discredit the accusations of paedophilia” against Jackson.

Ludot said the “indignity of the extremely grave accusations” made by Wade and Safechuck in Leaving Neverland had sullied the memory of the singer, who died in 2009.

Jackson’s image had been affected by the allegations as well as “the whole community of his fans”, the lawyer said.

Leaving Neverland was first broadcast in the US on HBO earlier this month and has since broken streaming records in Britain.

The film has outraged some of Jackon’s fans, who have waged an often vicious social media campaign against his accusers.

A number of radio stations, from Australia to Canada have stopped playing Jackson’s music after the documentary was aired, and the creators of The Simpsons also shelved one of the animated series’ classic episodes because it featured Jackson’s voice.

French luxury brand Louis Vuitton dropped Jackson-themed clothing on Thursday from a collection it had shown at Paris fashion week in January, saying it found the “allegations in the documentary deeply troubling and disturbing”.

Virgil Abloh, the first black designer to lead a major Paris fashion house, was assailed by Jackson fans on social media for the decision.

“Shame on you for removing all items related to Michael Jackson,” one wrote on Instagram, while another accused him of being a “traitor … on the white people side”.

In 2014, French lawyer Ludot won nominal damages of €1 (80¢) from Jackson’s personal doctor Conrad Murray for the hurt he had caused to his fans for his part in the singer’s death.

Murray was jailed for four years for manslaughter for giving Jackson what turned out to be a lethal dose of the anaesthetic drug propofol to help him sleep.

[Beso]

So internet fan groups can now sue individuals for alleged defimation of their hero's character..in france.


Switch of the light people..memo was right we all should just end things.

[Beso]

Funded by the uks latest lottery winner....TIBB OWN, Kaz..the diamond in our eyes.

[joeysteele]

You said that about Cliff Richards Chuff,he was also found not guilty,it cant be the 'laws' fault all the time surely.

Cliff wasn't even arrested Kazanne.
He just went and talked to Police.

No charges, nothing to answer to.

It really is incredible we bother to have a law system at all.
It seems it's felt some public opinion should just be gathered.
Ignoring all law verdict on people some don't like.
Even if they've never been arrested even like Cliff.

Thanks by the way.
Don't though please open yourself up to getting any grief on my part.
You've had far more than enough, unnecessary too, to contend with already.

[rusticgal]

Cliff wasn't even arrested Kazanne.
He just went and talked to Police.

No charges, nothing to answer to.

It really is incredible we bother to have a law system at all.
It seems it's felt some public opinion should just be gathered.
Ignoring all law verdict on people some don't like.
Even if they've never been arrested even like Cliff.

Thanks by the way.
Don't though please open yourself up to getting any grief on my part.
You've had far more than enough, unnecessary too, to contend with already.


Of course we need Law and Order....but as you well know Joey just because the verdict is Not Guilty doesn’t always mean someone isn’t...it just means they didn’t have enough proof to prove guilt.

[Beso]

I just ask myself why, why would grown men in thier 40s/50s suddenly start accusing cliff Richard. ..I've spoke to them face to face...they really come across as genuine as they sound.

[GoldHeart]

Yep and even Corey Feldman who testified that he didn't abuse him (which I believe btw as Corey is a victim of child sexual abuse and has no difficulty speaking about it) says he showed him porn at age 13...... that is saying that his relationships with kids were not pure and innocent at all

Oh really ?? Well that's funny because I've never heard that from Corey's MOUTH ! , but I guess because you read it then it must be true?:notimpressed:

[GoldHeart]

BOTH paedophiles so fine to be compared

ONLY Saville WAS , but once again you enjoy jumping to conclusions about MJ & Cliff :bored: despite them both being cleared and no evidence being found to incriminate them .

In this society people are damned if they do and damned if they don't

[joeysteele]

ONLY Saville WAS , but once again you enjoy jumping to conclusions about MJ & Cliff :bored: despite them both being cleared and no evidence being found to incriminate them .

In this society people are damned if they do and damned if they don't


Well said Goldheart, clearly the law means not a thing on here.

We really would live in a sad and in fact extremely dangerous society, where without any rule or protection in law.
People could just brand anyone, celebrity or otherwise, as something so serious as a paedophile, publicly too.
As on here a public forum.

Opening them up to possible kangaroo style courts and judgements and mob vigilantes.

With no recorded substantiated evidence against them.
It seems even here it's actually encouraged to do so.

One thing I'd do in law if I was ever asked to bring a new law in.
It would be to make it an actual crime to publicly brand anyone something they have not been proven to be.

I'm done on this thread.
Frankly, it now disgusts me as to the false accusations made as fact.
Truly awful.

[Niamh.]

Oh really ?? Well that's funny because I've never heard that from Corey's MOUTH ! , but I guess because you read it then it must be true?:notimpressed:He testified to it in court :shrug:

[GoldHeart]

He testified to it in court :shrug:

What you talking about ?? . Every time i see Corey TALKING about MJ he's NEVER EVER mentioned anything inappropriate happening . He's always defended MJ strongly , he said a few times that he recorded conversations they had together and how innocent it was.

He also said MJ was very shy and you couldn't curse or talk about anything sexual around him as MJ himself was not like that. So if MJ was showing him all these explicit things then why would Corey defend Mj's character and respect him if he was showing him those things?? . Once again doesn't make sense .

[GoldHeart]

Well said Goldheart, clearly the law means not a thing on here.

We really would live in a sad and in fact extremely dangerous society, where without any rule or protection in law.
People could just brand anyone, celebrity or otherwise, as something so serious as a paedophile, publicly too.
As on here a public forum.

Opening them up to possible kangaroo style courts and judgements and mob vigilantes.

With no recorded substantiated evidence against them.
It seems even here it's actually encouraged to do so.

One thing I'd do in law if I was ever asked to bring a new law in.
It would be to make it an actual crime to publicly brand anyone something they have not been proven to be.

I'm done on this thread.
Frankly, it now disgusts me as to the false accusations made as fact.
Truly awful.

Yeah Now in this modern culture , especially with metoo movement it appears anyone can be accused of these serious accusations with nothing to back it up which is extremely damaging . And it seems to be "Guilty until proven innocent" or in MJ's case a mixture of people no matter what thinking he's guilty as he was portrayed for years as the "weird guy" , and other people think he;s innocent using facts to debunk it.

But i think if MJ was alive today then the Leaving Neverland film WOULDN'T exist and wade & James wouldn't of made these allegations towards him, as him being alive would change their plans .

Conveniently after he's been dead 10 years that's when they make this film and try to sue the estate, and in their messed up heads seem to think the Jackson estate should be held accountable for their alleged child abuse :facepalm:, which again makes no sense . And it all just seem's like greed and all about money :bored: .

[user104658]

Would you even extend that to the accusers themselves? "Make it illegal" for a rape victim to tell people that someone raped them if they weren't convicted for it?

Very slippery slope there, given the undeniable FACT that most rapists are unconvicted, whether you like that statistic or not.

[user104658]

What you talking about ?? . Every time i see Corey TALKING about MJ he's NEVER EVER mentioned anything inappropriate happening . .

In the interview with "20/20" correspondent Martin Bashir — whose documentary "Living With Michael Jackson" helped spark the investigation against the pop star — Bashir asks, "Were you ever shown any images that were inappropriate?" Feldman responds, "If you consider it inappropriate for a man to look at a book of naked pictures with a child that's 13 or 14 years old, then your answer would be yes."

One example, Feldman said, was that Jackson had a book on his coffee table about "venereal diseases and the genitalia," which the singer would show him pictures in and "discuss what those meant."

"I was kind of grossed out by it," Feldman said. "I didn't think of it as a big deal. And for all these years, I probably never thought twice about it. But in light of recent evidence, I have to say that if my son was 14 years old, 13 years old, and went to a man's apartment, and I knew that they were sitting down together talking about this, I would probably beat his ass."

He quite clearly says that it happened, but it seems he didn't think there was any sexual overtone to it and that MJ just probably didn't realise that it was inappropriate to show him those books. So it wasn't exactly "looking at porn", obviously, but a definite example of him failing to understand boundaries.

[AnnieK]

Would you even extend that to the accusers themselves? "Make it illegal" for a rape victim to tell people that someone raped them if they weren't convicted for it?

Very slippery slope there, given the undeniable FACT that most rapists are unconvicted, whether you like that statistic or not.

Exactly, I have said before a close family member of mine reported a rape. I took her to the rape crisis centre with the police, I watched as they took picture of the blood on her thighs,the bruising on her arms, held her as she cried, listened to her threats over the coming months to take her own life as ger rapist and his friends threatened her, sat through a court case where every sexual relationship she ever had was questioned, heard the not guilty verdict because she knew her rapist and they could not agree about consent issues, watched as she fell apart once more. Do I now believe her rapist was innocent, do I ****.

[Kazanne]

Exactly, I have said before a close family member of mine reported a rape. I took her to the rape crisis centre with the police, I watched as they took picture of the blood on her thighs,the bruising on her arms, held her as she cried, listened to her threats over the coming months to take her own life as ger rapist and his friends threatened her, sat through a court case where every sexual relationship she ever had was questioned, heard the not guilty verdict because she knew her rapist and they could not agree about consent issues, watched as she fell apart once more. Do I now believe her rapist was innocent, do I ****.

I am sorry for what happened to your family member Annie and sadly that does happen,but that was someone you know and can see her reaction and know her personally to know she wasn't lying,also looks as though that verdict was wrong,but in this case there is something to be gained from MJ,he has money and is a famous person, he is a stranger to us as is Wade and Robson,also there was a 10 year investigation by high profile authorities as has been documented,and was STILL found not guilty so I tend to err on the laws side in the MJ case as he was scrutinised so much, there are so many hearsays and Chinese whispers in all this ,and if people believe he did it that's up to them but to blatantly say he is a child molester is wrong imo as there really is no proof , His name is tarnished now anyway, same as Cliff Richard,mud sticks even if someone is innocent.But in your friends case that surely wasn't right as she was obviously hurt which should be proof enough of something taking place.

[AnnieK]

I am sorry for what happened to your family member Annie and sadly that does happen,but that was someone you know and can see her reaction and know her personally to know she wasn't lying,also looks as though that verdict was wrong,but in this case there is something to be gained from MJ,he has money and is a famous person, he is a stranger to us as is Wade and Robson,also there was a 10 year investigation by high profile authorities as has been documented,and was STILL found not guilty so I tend to err on the laws side in the MJ case as he was scrutinised so much, there are so many hearsays and Chinese whispers in all this ,and if people believe he did it that's up to them but to blatantly say he is a child molester is wrong imo as there really is no proof , His name is tarnished now anyway, same as Cliff Richard,mud sticks even if someone is innocent.But in your friends case that surely wasn't right as she was obviously hurt which should be proof enough of something taking place.

Thanks Kaz :love:

It does just prove though how hard it is to get convictions. The jury were shown the pictures of her bruising and bleeding but his team said that was just "rough consensual sex"' I know it wasn't, everyone around her knew it wasn't but the jury couldn't say definitely as there wasn't enough proof and they didn't know her. Which is why I have very little faith in trials such as the one I sat through, or other cases such as MJs. He had the money for the best legal teams who will have every resource at their fingertips and at the end of the day, a jury is just regular joes like you and I who need to be able to say unanimously the crime happened and that just isn't always possible, as in the case I sat through.

Anyway, as you say, people will believe what they want and have researched themselves. It's good to discuss things rationally :love:

[Kazanne]

Thanks Kaz :love:

It does just prove though how hard it is to get convictions. The jury were shown the pictures of her bruising and bleeding but his team said that was just "rough consensual sex"' I know it wasn't, everyone around her knew it wasn't but the jury couldn't say definitely as there wasn't enough proof and they didn't know her. Which is why I have very little faith in trials such as the one I sat through, or other cases such as MJs. He had the money for the best legal teams who will have every resource at their fingertips and at the end of the day, a jury is just regular joes like you and I who need to be able to say unanimously the crime happened and that just isn't always possible, as in the case I sat through.

Anyway, as you say, people will believe what they want and have researched themselves. It's good to discuss things rationally :love:

:wavey: Exactly Annie.Hope your friend is ok now.

[Cherie]

59 pages, that has to be some kind of TiBB record :omgno:

[Kazanne]

Here's some more informative videos exposing Wade & James especially Wade

9nfwgbSQjYE

T_CL5VpNKWU

kbwuxas72G4

[Beso]

Tin foil hats

[GoldHeart]

Here's some more informative videos exposing Wade & James especially Wade

9nfwgbSQjYE

T_CL5VpNKWU

kbwuxas72G4

I bet people won't pay attention to these videos exposing them

[GoldHeart]

He quite clearly says that it happened, but it seems he didn't think there was any sexual overtone to it and that MJ just probably didn't realise that it was inappropriate to show him those books. So it wasn't exactly "looking at porn", obviously, but a definite example of him failing to understand boundaries.

Should of known Bashir would be behind this , that 2 faced journalist has been twisting stories of mj for a while. He said one thing to mj then behind his back he slagged him off . How sly is that . He also badly edited his docu to make mj look weird.

Mj had his own camera man that caught information that Bashir conveniently cut out .

[user104658]

I bet people won't pay attention to these videos exposing themI certainly wont; as I said before, the videos that have been linked to before have been a complete waste of time and to be frank these look even worse.

[GoldHeart]

I certainly wont; as I said before, the videos that have been linked to before have been a complete waste of time and to be frank these look even worse.

The videos are facts & have proper research . Yet people would rather watch a mockumentary with contradictions & inconsistencies and in the 4 hours graphic abuse details oh lovely :bored: :facepalm: .

[Cherie]

Here's some more informative videos exposing Wade & James especially Wade

9nfwgbSQjYE

T_CL5VpNKWU

kbwuxas72G4

I dont remember him burning anything in the videos maybe I switched off beforehand, but if he burned the Thriller jacket that is well dodgy as its just for dramatic effect

[Epic.]

I dont remember him burning anything in the videos maybe I switched off beforehand, but if he burned the Thriller jacket that is well dodgy as its just for dramatic effect

It was shown occuring in the end credits

[Beso]

I hope everyone knows that my opinions on this are my own opinions, no matter what any court or news outlet, or even person says.....it's my opinion...and definatly very strong for the simple reason it's what I believe to be true...I don't have these opinions to wind anybody up or to shock...or be edgy.....it's me..this is whom I am..


I don't judge anyone on here and find this particular thread rather epic..

[GoldHeart]

djiYfyRTWGY

8qvnzlvDuSY

[Kazanne]

It was shown occuring in the end credits


Really ?, I watched it and never saw that, maybe someone can find a clip

[Cherie]

Those videos throw up some anomlies

so the maid had a key and could enter at any time, but Wade claims there were alarms rigged up so that on one could enter without them going off

she was also paid by newspapers for her story

Wades wife said she had no experience of child abuse so didn't recognise the signs in Wade but was listed a child abuse survivor herself on their charity website

Safechucks parents were being sued for 800,000 dollars by their fathers sisters as he stopped paying them dividends from a company they invested in at the time Safechuck jumped on board the lawsuit

They are filing for duty of care/negligence of Jacksons companies when he was the 100 per cent shareholder, and didn't bring a criminal suit as this wouldn't pay out, also both sets of parents took the kids back after the original case collapsed....they should be suing their parents for lack of duty of care surely?

[Nancy.]

Once again all this is OLD rubbish that was debunked .

That German guy was selling fake mj memorabilia online and he got caught out ! .

Yes, Here's a video to show how much of a fraud he is.

IVeTuUiIQKI

[chuff me dizzy]

Of course we need Law and Order....but as you well know Joey just because the verdict is Not Guilty doesn’t always mean someone isn’t...it just means they didn’t have enough proof to prove guilt.

When Cliff sued the BBC a lot of things were not allowed to be brought up in court ..Why ???????/

[chuff me dizzy]

ONLY Saville WAS , but once again you enjoy jumping to conclusions about MJ & Cliff :bored: despite them both being cleared and no evidence being found to incriminate them .

In this society people are damned if they do and damned if they don't

Cliff has not been cleared as he's never been charged ......Yet

[Kazanne]

Cliff has not been cleared as he's never been charged ......Yet

What makes you sure Chuff that Cliff was a child molester he's always seemed quite 'clean' living to me. Have people actually accused him,plus nothing was found at his home when the BBC raided it.

[chuff me dizzy]

What makes you sure Chuff that Cliff was a child molester he's always seemed quite 'clean' living to me. Have people actually accused him,plus nothing was found at his home when the BBC raided it.

So did Saville ,this is what they hide behind ............. The Sheffield men who claimed he sexual attacked them ,his name spring up behind so many things Yew Tree being one of them

[chuff me dizzy]

What makes you sure Chuff that Cliff was a child molester he's always seemed quite 'clean' living to me. Have people actually accused him,plus nothing was found at his home when the BBC raided it. COPIED AND PASTED

Unfortunately though, Reverend Cliff forgot to mention some other altogether more disturbing rumours, that his faithful fans might not be aware of.

They include the following:

– that Cliff and Melvyn Bragg share a repulsive hobby that the average person would find sickening.

– that Cliff is linked to notorious boy-brothel Elm Guest House,where boys were trafficked from local care homes to be abused by VIP filth, and used the pseudonym, Kitty.

– that Cliff knew about the BBC paedophile ring, linked to Government and Royalty

– that Cliff was questioned several times by police officers following the brutal murder of his ‘close’ chum Jill Dando, who was about to blow the lid on the ring.

– that Cliff recently renounced his British citizenship and is now a fully fledged Barbadian

– that Cliff has been helped by his pals in Mi5 to evade justice when abuse allegations have been made against him.

– that Cliff is really nothing like his wholesome, religious, celibate persona at all and has actually hoodwinked us, Jimmy Savile style, for decades.

So you see, being exposed as gay is the very least of Cliff Richard’s worries.

His biggest secret has yet to be revealed…

[chuff me dizzy]

What makes you sure Chuff that Cliff was a child molester he's always seemed quite 'clean' living to me. Have people actually accused him,plus nothing was found at his home when the BBC raided it.

https://www.freeandfearless.org.uk/elm-guest-house-list/

[chuff me dizzy]

What makes you sure Chuff that Cliff was a child molester he's always seemed quite 'clean' living to me. Have people actually accused him,plus nothing was found at his home when the BBC raided it.

http://narrowboater.blogspot.com/2016/03/mysterious-deaths-at-bbc.html

[Kazanne]

http://narrowboater.blogspot.com/2016/03/mysterious-deaths-at-bbc.html

That is some roll call Chuff,surely that would blow the BBC apart if it was true, and some of those names are and were highly regarded.Surely someone would have dobbed them all in by now.

[Nancy.]

According to various sources, there is something called a 'statute of limitations' that says you have 3 years to report a crime of sexual abuse, but they are now making it 10 years in California.

Regardless, they tried to sue MJ's estate and it was dismissed, but it looks like they found a loophole within the law and that's why they're appealing.

"If a survivor of sexual violence discovers an injury or illness that has resulted from an act of sexual assault, he or she can file a civil action for recovery of damages within three years of the date that the injury was discovered. This is important because psychological injuries and illnesses can appear many years after an incident of sexual violence."

So that's why they keep claiming they didn't realise they had been sexually abused (despite both of them knowing the authorities were investigating the most famous "pedophile" in the world since 93).

Sounds to me like they've concocted this story to get around the statute of limitations.

I watched the Oprah interview and even she said "how can you not know it was abuse?" followed by "and you lied to your first therapist?"

They are playing the public for fools if they want us to believe they didn't know what sexual abuse was until 2013.

Anyway,. Watch this from 6:10 onwards...
BL4YOlFuVtc

[chuff me dizzy]

That is some roll call Chuff,surely that would blow the BBC apart if it was true, and some of those names are and were highly regarded.Surely someone would have dobbed them all in by now.

Its things like this that make the BBC the most bent broadcasters ever

[Nancy.]

Speaking of the Oprah interview with the Accusers, watch Safechuck's face when she mentions the marriage ceremony. He can hardly contain himself.

Click at 6:20...

xZ06EaeNzY8

[user104658]

Speaking of the Oprah interview with the Accusers, watch Safechuck's face when she mentions the marriage ceremony. He can hardly contain himself.

Watch from 6:05 onwards...

xZ06EaeNzY8

Looks to me like despite everything he still considers it a fond memory - which comes across a lot from both of them in the documentary and, again, doesn't mean they weren't groomed or abused. He does a small, vague, slightly sad looking smile and it's branded "he can barely contain himself!!" in yet another youtube video from what is clearly a biased fan. I said I wasn't going to click any more of these videos and yet here I am again, viewing MORE of the same. :idc:

I suppose at least it was from a sensible source this time...

http://i67.tinypic.com/2qvvyg6.jpg

:facepalm: ffs.

[Nancy.]

Recent quote from the director of the mockumentary...

"The astonishing thing is also when you go online on Twitter and stuff, which I try not to do too much, there’s people who spend a great deal of time and care into creating videos exposing the lies of Leaving Neverland, and pretty much everything they are saying have been contradicted by the documentary itself. All you need to do is watch the documentary. There’s this thing around of “Oh, well how come Stephanie knew about the abuse, how come she was dancing when Michael Jackson died when James told her about the abuse in 2013?” Well, that’s not the case. James told his mother about the abuse in 2005, and that’s clear in the film. He told her “Michael abused me” in 2005. If you watched the film with both eyes and ears open, that’s incredibly obvious and plain. That’s the bizarre thing; they don’t even seem to watch the film. A lot of what they’re saying is based on the letter the Jackson estate’s lawyer wrote before he watched the film. So it’s not a dialogue between the Jackson truthers and my documentary, it’s an internal dialogue within the community of Jackson truthers kind of convincing one another that “we gotcha!” when in fact, none of it relates to my documentary. It’s like people shouting inside some kind of cult temple and none of them ever look outside."

:facepalm:

He's just destroyed Safechuck case, whose only chance of overcoming the status of limitation is by sticking to the version which says he only realised he was abused in 2013.

and they wonder why the judge throw out his lawsuits.

Oprah asked him "when did you first realise you were abused"?, and his answer was "only when I saw Wade on TV". Reed has just confirmed that Safechuck lied to Oprah (of course while putting on his sad face - after all, he is so traumatised by the recent realisation that he lived all his life on a lie (please forget about the claim that he told his Mother in 2005 about the lie that he has just realised and causing him all this visible trauma.

We mustn''t shame the poor traumatised "victim(s)" now, must we :nono:

[Twosugars]

http://narrowboater.blogspot.com/2016/03/mysterious-deaths-at-bbc.html

:laugh: the author of that bollox need his head examined

[GoldHeart]

Looks to me like despite everything he still considers it a fond memory - which comes across a lot from both of them in the documentary and, again, doesn't mean they weren't groomed or abused. He does a small, vague, slightly sad looking smile and it's branded "he can barely contain himself!!" in yet another youtube video from what is clearly a biased fan. I said I wasn't going to click any more of these videos and yet here I am again, viewing MORE of the same. :idc:

I suppose at least it was from a sensible source this time...

http://i67.tinypic.com/2qvvyg6.jpg

:facepalm: ffs.


Yes Pearl has wild conspiracy theories about MJ faking his own death which i DON'T agree with and i don't believe , and she's even made a full 3 part dvd series , i haven't seen it . But her other information about Wade & Jimmy and the whole abuse allegations being BS i agree with and that's all i'm bothered about .

[GoldHeart]

:laugh: the author of that bollox need his head examined

I clicked on the link and this conspiracy is even more insane than MJ faking his own death :rolleyes:

Plus the only shocking murder from that list that stands out to me is Jill Dando, but i didn't go through the entire web page.

Mark Speight killing himself was also shocking after his girlfriend's death.

[user104658]

I clicked on the link and this conspiracy is even more insane than MJ faking his own death :rolleyes:



Plus the only shocking murder from that list that stands out to me is Jill Dando, but i didn't go through the entire web page.



Mark Speight killing himself was also shocking after his girlfriend's death.Jill Dando wasn't murdered she was assassinated. It sounds like an insane conspiracy theory but it's actually the facts of the case; the man who was initially charged with her killing was later found not to have done it and was released, no one else has ever been caught, and the police are certain that it was a professional paid killer.

There's a lot of debate over why she was killed and no one really knows 100% but she clearly knew something that people with power and influence wanted kept secret.

Its a bizarre case.

[thesheriff443]

Jill Dando wasn't murdered she was assassinated. It sounds like an insane conspiracy theory but it's actually the facts of the case; the man who was initially charged with her killing was later found not to have done it and was released, no one else has ever been caught, and the police are certain that it was a professional paid killer.

There's a lot of debate over why she was killed and no one really knows 100% but she clearly knew something that people with power and influence wanted kept secret.

Its a bizarre case.

Jill Dando fronted crime watch so would be the biggest lead in my eyes.

Mark killed himself because his gf over dosed in the bath.

[Nancy.]

Yes Pearl has wild conspiracy theories about MJ faking his own death which i DON'T agree with and i don't believe , and she's even made a full 3 part dvd series , i haven't seen it . But her other information about Wade & Jimmy and the whole abuse allegations being BS i agree with and that's all i'm bothered about .

That's exactly how I feel.

[user104658]

Yes Pearl has wild conspiracy theories about MJ faking his own death which i DON'T agree with and i don't believe , and she's even made a full 3 part dvd series , i haven't seen it . But her other information about Wade & Jimmy and the whole abuse allegations being BS i agree with and that's all i'm bothered about .

That's exactly how I feel.

"She talks a pile of wild, unsubstantiated nonsense except when I agree with her - then it's true."