View Full Version : Johnny Mercer MP gives his views on today's anniversary of the death of 2 soldiers
https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnnyMercerUK/status/1108045571376459777
The video is a hard watch, but every single man involved in this incident was eventually released with a full pardon.
Kazanne
19-03-2019, 07:11 PM
https://mobile.twitter.com/JohnnyMercerUK/status/1108045571376459777
The video is a hard watch, but every single man involved in this incident was eventually released with a full pardon.
That's the one I was on about the other day Parmy,it stuck in my mind it was so barbaric.
arista
19-03-2019, 07:14 PM
Real Sad the 2 Undercover Soldiers
were Murdered,
I wish they Could have reversed faster more
That's the one I was on about the other day Parmy,it stuck in my mind it was so barbaric.
It was live on tv from my recollection, I may be wrong but I think they were the funerals of that scumbag Stones funeral grenade attack..
But yes, all those involved recieved a pardon from the uk government who have then gone on to prosecute it's soldiers who also committed a heinous act on bloody Sunday, but imo...you can't do one and not the other.
Real Sad the 2 Undercover Soldiers
were Murdered,
I wish they Could have reversed faster more
They reversed pretty fast to be fair, but the route was either blocked by people who they may not have wanted to run down (they didn't shoot thier guns so I believe that to be true)....or ira taxis.
Surrounded, so pulled out thier gun..That's when the crowd backs off..but they didn't shoot..(I believe).. perhaps expecting a severe beating rather than the humiliating death they suffered..
arista
19-03-2019, 07:29 PM
They reversed pretty fast to be fair, but the route was either blocked by people who they may not have wanted to run down (they didn't shoot thier guns so I believe that to be true)....or ira taxis.
Surrounded, so pulled out thier gun..That's when the crowd backs off..but they didn't shoot.... perhaps expecting a severe beating rather than the humiliating death they suffered..
I would have run them down
to stay alive
Kazanne
19-03-2019, 07:53 PM
They reversed pretty fast to be fair, but the route was either blocked by people who they may not have wanted to run down (they didn't shoot thier guns so I believe that to be true)....or ira taxis.
Surrounded, so pulled out thier gun..That's when the crowd backs off..but they didn't shoot..(I believe).. perhaps expecting a severe beating rather than the humiliating death they suffered..
Must have taken something not to shoot, tbh, even I at a young age remember the footage and papers the next day it was just so awful.
Must have taken something not to shoot, tbh, even I at a young age remember the footage and papers the next day it was just so awful.
Oh a gun shot was heard....they blamed that on the corporals.BUT.
It was confirmed via post-mortem that Corporal Wood was shot twice in the head and four times in the body as well as being stabbed 4 times in the neck. Corporal Howes was shot once in the head and four times in the body. So why would you shoot the one that's been stabbed 4 times in the neck twice in the head and the other one just once?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1971_Scottish_soldiers%27_killings
It was the 48th anniversary of this just last week.
Kazanne
19-03-2019, 09:47 PM
Oh a gun shot was heard....they blamed that on the corporals.BUT.
It was confirmed via post-mortem that Corporal Wood was shot twice in the head and four times in the body as well as being stabbed 4 times in the neck. Corporal Howes was shot once in the head and four times in the body. So why would you shoot the one that's been stabbed 4 times in the neck twice in the head and the other one just once?
Didn't one of them shoot his gun into the air, at first to make them back off ? when he could have easily shot a few and they may have escaped.
Didn't one of them shoot his gun into the air, at first to make them back off ? when he could have easily shot a few and they may have escaped.
That is the bit that doesn't make sense to me..I've seen pictures of him leaning out the window with the gun but he had pulled it out before the window got smashed and in the footage the crowd moves back before the windows gets smashed..you then see one of the suspects smash the window which is then instantly surrounded again...the picture of the soldier hanging out the window doesn't have anyone else in the pic if I remember correctly...So the still photo and the video evidence doesn't add up to me.
rusticgal
19-03-2019, 10:00 PM
I remember it well....it was sickening.
Cherie
19-03-2019, 10:05 PM
Yes it was sickening just like Bloody Sunday was sickening but not one of you has commented on that thread other than to bring up this incident which is quite insulting in my view, and this is what a hard border which will resurrect, so when you say you want a no deal Brexit look forward to more of this
I remember it well....it was sickening.
They even forced a priest holding them as they lay bleeding, to leave before they tossed thier naked tortured bodies over a high wall to waiting taxis.
Yes it was sickening just like Bloody Sunday was sickening but not one of you has commented on that thread other than to bring up this incident which is quite insulting in my view, and this is what a hard border which will resurrect, so when you say you want a no deal Brexit look forward to more of this
What's insulting is one side gets let off, often given leading roles in society, while the other side is left with years of torment and fear before finally being hung by your own.
Cherie
19-03-2019, 10:09 PM
What's insulting is one side gets let off, often given leading roles in society, while the other side is left with years of torment and fear before finally being hung by your own.
Well go make a petition, or write to your MP or do something about it then rather than moaning on a Big Brother forum
Kazanne
19-03-2019, 11:15 PM
Yes it was sickening just like Bloody Sunday was sickening but not one of you has commented on that thread other than to bring up this incident which is quite insulting in my view, and this is what a hard border which will resurrect, so when you say you want a no deal Brexit look forward to more of this
Well I was going to find out more on Bloody Sunday as tbh I know very little about it,but as soon as I mentioned the thing I remembered about the soldiers,I got shot down so didn't bother to find out much else about it,I was only young myself and only remembered that as it was quite graphic,I am half Irish myself and have recently found family from Cork McVeighs,so I was wanting to find out more but as I said it was quite hostile so I left it at that, I didn't mean to insult anyone I was genuinely interested.
Well go make a petition, or write to your MP or do something about it then rather than moaning on a Big Brother forum
You sound like the only one moaning in this thread. Now if you've nothing more to add kindly move along.
Cherie
20-03-2019, 08:20 AM
You sound like the only one moaning in this thread. Now if you've nothing more to add kindly move along.
It a public forum I don't need to move along at all
Cherie
20-03-2019, 08:22 AM
Well I was going to find out more on Bloody Sunday as tbh I know very little about it,but as soon as I mentioned the thing I remembered about the soldiers,I got shot down so didn't bother to find out much else about it,I was only young myself and only remembered that as it was quite graphic,I am half Irish myself and have recently found family from Cork McVeighs,so I was wanting to find out more but as I said it was quite hostile so I left it at that, I didn't mean to insult anyone I was genuinely interested.
Thanks for a balanced view Kazanne, there were plenty wrongs on both sides, I don't agree with soldiers being held to account at this stage unless there is solid evidence that they abused their status and killed innocents and even then I think it is those higher up the chain of command that should be answering questions
Livia
20-03-2019, 10:35 AM
Yes it was sickening just like Bloody Sunday was sickening but not one of you has commented on that thread other than to bring up this incident which is quite insulting in my view, and this is what a hard border which will resurrect, so when you say you want a no deal Brexit look forward to more of this
Conversely, Cherie, there was more than a little animosity on the other thread and I didn't get the feeling that the two incidents were being seen as sickening as each other. In fact, there was some irritation that this story had been mentioned, when it was in context with the discussion. Both incidents were terrible. The parents of everyone who died in the two incidents deserve justice. But the families of the two young soldiers ripped apart by a baying mob of Irish people will never get justice because their murderers have been pardoned... while a soldier involved with Bloody Sunday will be made to stand trial. The whole thing needs to be handled with an even hand and right now it's a competition over who suffered most.
Crimson Dynamo
20-03-2019, 10:40 AM
I remember this well, watching it on tv
barbaric
user104658
20-03-2019, 10:50 AM
Surely we can all agree that it in fact IS more important to make an example of a trained soldier who has given in to bloodlust than pretty much any other incident, though? That's not to downplay other atrocities but we put military grade weaponry in the hands of soldiers and when we do so we trust them not to abuse that power. A soldier who goes rogue and commits any war crime HAS to be made an example of or we're on a very dark path. And this was on British soil which elevates it even beyond that.
So are terrorist attacks just as sickening as these killings? Yes, obviously taken as individual incidents they are, murder is murder. But it has to be accepted that pardoning soldiers has much wider implications than the incident itself. The message HAS to be "When you put on this uniform and pick up these weapons we are trusting you with a huge responsibility, with the reputation of the military and the country, and if you violate that trust there are severe consequences".
It a public forum I don't need to move along at all
Yes it indeed is, which is why I posted on it with this topic...
I have also petitioned downing street regarding the bloody Sunday charges and will March on downing street if I hear of any demonstration marches like I do to protest at its covering up of paedophilia.
Surely we can all agree that it in fact IS more important to make an example of a trained soldier who has given in to bloodlust than pretty much any other incident, though? That's not to downplay other atrocities but we put military grade weaponry in the hands of soldiers and when we do so we trust them not to abuse that power. A soldier who goes rogue and commits any war crime HAS to be made an example of or we're on a very dark path. And this was on British soil which elevates it even beyond that.
So are terrorist attacks just as sickening as these killings? Yes, obviously taken as individual incidents they are, murder is murder. But it has to be accepted that pardoning soldiers has much wider implications than the incident itself. The message HAS to be "When you put on this uniform and pick up these weapons we are trusting you with a huge responsibility, with the reputation of the military and the country, and if you violate that trust there are severe consequences".
This is the thing, people instantly think you want the soldier pardoned.....I bloody dont; I want them all charged and all pardoned murderers ent back to prison to serve out thier sentences....not in a cushy jail either where they run the wings..
Livia
20-03-2019, 10:59 AM
Surely we can all agree that it in fact IS more important to make an example of a trained soldier who has given in to bloodlust than pretty much any other incident, though? That's not to downplay other atrocities but we put military grade weaponry in the hands of soldiers and when we do so we trust them not to abuse that power. A soldier who goes rogue and commits any war crime HAS to be made an example of or we're on a very dark path. And this was on British soil which elevates it even beyond that.
So are terrorist attacks just as sickening as these killings? Yes, obviously taken as individual incidents they are, murder is murder. But it has to be accepted that pardoning soldiers has much wider implications than the incident itself. The message HAS to be "When you put on this uniform and pick up these weapons we are trusting you with a huge responsibility, with the reputation of the military and the country, and if you violate that trust there are severe consequences".
You talk about bloodlust, I call it being ****ing terrified. You've got to remember that soldiers are human beings, not plaster saints. And they die just as easily as anyone else. Warren Point, for example. Plenty died there. I refuse to believe that terrorists who kill babies, children, the elderly, who blow off the arms and legs of innocent people for their cause, are just a little more in the right than soldiers. That's just b*ll*cks.
user104658
20-03-2019, 11:02 AM
This is the thing, people instantly think you want the soldier pardoned.....I bloody dont; I want them all charged and all pardoned murderers ent back to prison to serve out thier sentences....not in a cushy jail either where they run the wings..
In an ideal world they would all have been charged but the pardons given as part of the peace process were a necessary evil to save who-knows-how-many. It's murky and leaves a bad taste but it is what it is; we could have refused on principle but doing so would have cost more innocent lives.
user104658
20-03-2019, 11:07 AM
You talk about bloodlust, I call it being ****ing terrified. You've got to remember that soldiers are human beings, not plaster saints. And they die just as easily as anyone else. Warren Point, for example. Plenty died there. I refuse to believe that terrorists who kill babies, children, the elderly, who blow off the arms and legs of innocent people for their cause, are just a little more in the right than soldiers. That's just b*ll*cks.
It's not about being in the right at all though, it's not even that I don't agree that soldiers are likely often terrified and acting on instinct, but the point still stands that the rules of engagement must exist and the consequences of breaking those rules must be definite and severe, even if they're harsh. What is the point of the concept of military discipline if the rules are "fuzzy"?
We don't have conscription any more and haven't for a long time so making an error and facing the consequences is a known risk for anyone who chooses to join up.
In an ideal world they would all have been charged but the pardons given as part of the peace process were a necessary evil to save who-knows-how-many. It's murky and leaves a bad taste but it is what it is; we could have refused on principle but doing so would have cost more innocent lives.
They weren't innocent lives in the eyes of the IRA...
Crimson Dynamo
20-03-2019, 11:30 AM
Peter Hitchens: The trial of 'Soldier F' is the final proof that the IRA won
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Peter_Hitchens_at_SidneySussex.jpg/220px-Peter_Hitchens_at_SidneySussex.jpg
The decision to prosecute one of the Bloody Sunday soldiers is straightforward victor’s justice.
And if you still haven’t grasped who won in the war between Britain and the Provisional IRA, perhaps
the truth will now at last sink in. All war is crime. But only the losers ever face trial for it.
Whether ‘Soldier F’ is guilty or not is a matter for the courts, and should stay that way. I have nothing
to say about it. But the long, dragging process which has led to his being charged is political, far more
a matter of power than of justice.
It is because we were the vanquished and the Provisional IRA, backed with all the might of the USA,
were the winners in 1998 that this is happening at all.
If we had won, scores of IRA and ‘loyalist’ murderers (freed as a sop to the Protestant killer gangs)
would still be doing time. And our police and courts would still be hunting down the culprits of hundreds
of terrorist crimes which will now never be punished. And there would not be the slightest chance that a
long-retired ex-paratrooper would be preparing for his trial, for actions allegedly taken while under Army discipline.
IF you are sharp-eyed, you will have noticed that the body which announced the prosecution is called the
Public Prosecution Service, not the Crown Prosecution Service. That should be a helpful hint. Britain’s
continued rule in Northern Ireland is provisional, in more senses than one.
So the Crown, the symbol of British authority which adorns every courthouse and prison (and every embassy abroad),
and is to be found on the cap-badge of every police officer and all service personnel, has already been abolished in Northern Ireland.
In the same way, our flag has been hauled more than halfway there. In Northern Ireland now,
the Union Jack can only be flown on public buildings in limited circumstances.
Everybody there knows that one day soon, the referendum promised in the 1998 surrender to the IRA will be held,
and the whole thing will be handed over to Dublin rule. For the first time since 1945, a Western
European country will surrender territory to its neighbour as a reward for successful armed aggression backed by the USA,
a fact so shocking that many still cannot comprehend it.
This handover is guaranteed by solemn treaty, by the way. There’ll be no dithering, no negotiation, no second thoughts.
The projected Irish referendum is not ‘advisory’. It will be final if it decides in favour of a united Ireland
(though it can be held again, every seven years, if it produces the ‘wrong’ result, until it comes up with the right one).
Yet millions, especially the Blair creature who signed the instrument of surrender,
are still keen to pretend that we won this nasty little war, when we lost it, as Soldier F now knows very well.
It is all part of the deep, deep sleep of Britain, from which we shall only be awakened by shock and awe,
as we finally realise that we have spent what we earned, and wantonly wrecked what we inherited from our wiser forebears.
https://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2019/03/peter-hitchens-the-trial-of-soldier-f-is-the-final-proof-that-the-ira-won.html
Livia
20-03-2019, 11:55 AM
Peter Hitchens hitting the nail on the head. I'm a big fan of his...
Ain't it funny how a country can allow hundreds and hundreds of murdering terrorit's to be set free with full pardons and no criminal convictions yet it can't allow a woman and her child back to her country of birth after she made the mistake of wanting to live in an isis controlled area under Islamic law.
Cherie
20-03-2019, 03:35 PM
Conversely, Cherie, there was more than a little animosity on the other thread and I didn't get the feeling that the two incidents were being seen as sickening as each other. In fact, there was some irritation that this story had been mentioned, when it was in context with the discussion. Both incidents were terrible. The parents of everyone who died in the two incidents deserve justice. But the families of the two young soldiers ripped apart by a baying mob of Irish people will never get justice because their murderers have been pardoned... while a soldier involved with Bloody Sunday will be made to stand trial. The whole thing needs to be handled with an even hand and right now it's a competition over who suffered most.
I agree with you
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