School Uniforms: For or Against them?

[Tony Montana]

Are/Were you for or against them?

I was always against them.

[Elliot]

I think the way British public schools are run are dog**** in a myriad of ways, including uniform.

[Morgan.]

I get why they exist but I don't think they're essential to the education of a child nor do I think they should be as strictly monitored as they are (like we had specific tie lengths, black socks only etc)

[Livia]

I'm for them. It'd reduce the risk of poor kids being ridiculed for cheap trainers and no designer labels. It gives everyone a kind of equality.

[Livia]

I think the way British public schools are run are dog**** in a myriad of ways, including uniform.

Public schools? Do you mean state schools?

[Morgan.]

I'm for them. It'd reduce the risk of poor kids being ridiculed for cheap trainers and no designer labels. It gives everyone a kind of equality.

I find this such an outdated way of thinking in regards to uniform. My school (it's between a rough area and a more well off area, so has students from both) had a non uniform day at the end of every term and very rarely was there any predujice over kids with less quality clothing.

Besides, I found there was more ridiculing on the uniform days - if someone school shoes were tatty or old, if someone had a muddy blazer, if their tie or short had holes in, if their trousers were too short etc.

And in the same sense, people would be ridiculed if they're were following the uniform policy too well (tucking in their shirt, tie at correct length, wearing smart trousers instead of jeans etc).

Imo there's absolutely no difference when it comes to kids ridiculing each other over uniform or non uniform - it's all the same. It will happen in some instances regardless.

[Underscore]

For until Sixth Form. Own clothes after.

Works well enough in my school.

[Liam-]

For, there’s enough time out of school hours for kids to dress how they want, school isn’t a fashion show.

[Ramsay]

Waste of money

[Morgan.]

For, there’s enough time out of school hours for kids to dress how they want, school isn’t a fashion show.

It's not about being a 'fashion show', it's about expression. We are growing up in a changing world where it's increasingly becoming normal to be different - and we are forcing kids to dress identically and by the book?

And 2/7 days to wear their own clothes is hardly enough time to develop their individual identity :laugh:

[Livia]

I find this such an outdated way of thinking in regards to uniform. My school (it's between a rough area and a more well off area, so has students from both) had a non uniform day at the end of every term and very rarely was there any predujice over kids with less quality clothing.

Besides, I found there was more ridiculing on the uniform days - if someone school shoes were tatty or old, if someone had a muddy blazer, if their tie or short had holes in, if their trousers were too short etc.

And in the same sense, people would be ridiculed if they're were following the uniform policy too well (tucking in their shirt, tie at correct length, wearing smart trousers instead of jeans etc).

Imo there's absolutely no difference when it comes to kids ridiculing each other over uniform or non uniform - it's all the same. It will happen in some instances regardless.

Outdated? LOL.... I ****ing give up on this place.

[Livia]

It's not about being a 'fashion show', it's about expression. We are growing up in a changing world where it's increasingly becoming normal to be different - and we are forcing kids to dress identically and by the book?

And 2/7 days to wear their own clothes is hardly enough time to develop their individual identity :laugh:

When you get to work you'll be told to do things and you'll have to do them. Pity school isn't instilling THAT into you.

[Saph]

For, I hated uniform at the time but I hated at college having to try and find a new outfit every single day, it was tiring

[Saph]

and you always got those skanks who wore the same smelly stuff every day

[Cherie]

I think its a good thing, particularly for parents, getting kids out to school in the morning can be hard enough, add into the mix ' what am I wearing' and it becomes more of a drudge

It prepares students for life outside school, as in most work places there is a uniform of some description

Also saves money as wearing the same clothes to school each day would not be acceptable to some kids

[Livia]

I think its a good think, particularly for parents, getting kids out to school in the morning can be hard enough, add into the mix ' what am I wearing' and it becomes more of a drudge

It prepares students for life outside school, as in most work places there is a uniform of some description

Also saves money as wearing the same clothes to school each day would not be acceptable to some kids

Get out of here Cherie, with your common sense...….

[TomC]

For, again bc of like labels and stuff which seem to be SO important to teens rn. Has to be enforced tho

[Morgan.]

When you get to work you'll be told to do things and you'll have to do them. Pity school isn't instilling THAT into you.

I mean I'm quite aware of that but many workplaces are accepting of expression, whether it be hair colour, piercings, or even colour of ****ing socks.

But thank you for your patronising responses and disregard to any of my points :)

[Ant.]

I'm for them. It'd reduce the risk of poor kids being ridiculed for cheap trainers and no designer labels. It gives everyone a kind of equality.

This

[Ant.]

For, I hated uniform at the time but I hated at college having to try and find a new outfit every single day, it was tiring

also this lmao

[LukeB]

I'm for them (I don't like them) but like Livia said it kind of gives everyone equality, and the poor kids won't get picked on for wearing something so cheap and tatty.

We have to wear uniforms at work (well most places) anyway..

[Cherie]

Get out of here Cherie, with your common sense...….

don't make me leave :omgno:

[LukeB]

kids are not mature enough to wear their own clothes at school, you will get the i'm better than you because i'm wearing labels and you're wearing something from a charity shop etc

[Morgan.]

I think its a good think, particularly for parents, getting kids out to school in the morning can be hard enough, add into the mix ' what am I wearing' and it becomes more of a drudge

It prepares students for life outside school, as in most work places there is a uniform of some description

Also saves money as wearing the same clothes to school each day would not be acceptable to some kids

I do understand this, but I think also the policies around uniform need work. You don't buy your work uniform in many instances - it's handed out.

So why, when at school, can your parents spend upwards of £100 buying a uniform that's compulsory? I had two £35 blazers (they reccomended buying 2), two long sleeved shirts and two short sleeved £30 between them, two pairs of trousers £30 between them and a pair of school standard shoes £35. That alone is £130. Then Factor in every time I need new things because I've grown, or gone up a shoe size.

[Morgan.]

For, I hated uniform at the time but I hated at college having to try and find a new outfit every single day, it was tiring

Everyone in my college can wear the same outfit for 3/4 days in a row and go unnoticed - it doesn't seem that big of a deal :laugh:

[LukeB]

the not so privilege kids will feel pressured they have to buy expensive clothes to fit in! uniforms don't put that pressure on them.

[Cherie]

I do understand this, but I think also the policies around uniform need work. You don't buy your work uniform in many instances - it's handed out.

So why, when at school, can your parents spend upwards of £100 buying a uniform that's compulsory? I had two £35 blazers (they reccomended buying 2), two long sleeved shirts and two short sleeved £30 between them, two pairs of trousers £30 between them and a pair of school standard shoes £35. That alone is £130. Then Factor in every time I need new things because I've grown, or gone up a shoe size.

tbf though a pair of decent trainers is 80 quid these days and get your Mum buying you two blazers, mine got one big one, sleeves down around their ankles in year 7 and up to their elbows by Year 11 :laugh:

I took my son out the other day and the trainers were 110.00 quid I nearly died

[user104658]

I'm for them. It'd reduce the risk of poor kids being ridiculed for cheap trainers and no designer labels. It gives everyone a kind of equality.All of my schools had uniforms and my kids do too and to be honest I think it only partially addresses that problem, at best. The uniforms are very rarely provided in state schools, it's just a provided list (black trousers, black shoes etc.) and the quality and fit of the items, especially things like shoes and coats, vary so widely that it's still easy to tell who has ordered in quality items and who has been on a supermarket sweep at primark. I guess it's like any formal event. They have a dress code that will be like "black suit" for men but it's still pretty obvious who has had a quality suit tailored for them and who has bought a £100 one off the rack.

To be honest I find that in non-uniform environments it's actually easier to emphasise style choices over garment quality so the differences can be LESS obvious. For example for a t shirt with a design on it, if I see a cheapo one that I like the look of I'll wear it. But when it comes to PLAIN clothing I'll always choose more expensive, higher quality items because they're almost always a better fit, more comfortable, longer lasting, and because the materials / stitching etc. are just visibly far better.

I guess somewhat shamefully we play into it with my own kids too. We spend a small fortune on their uniforms every summer (and usually again in winter because the little bastards just keep on growing!), again especially on things like shoes, coats, cardigans... But even dresses / trousers and shirts too... When we COULD just buy a load from primark, but we've tried it and it just looks cheap. We live in a fairly affluent village and I'd say that less than 10% of the kids are low income, and the number who could be described as "deprived" is really only a handful in the whole school and calling a spade a spade - you can tell from their clothes. The fact that it's a uniform makes no difference. And again I suspect I would find it harder to tell if everyone was wearing their own stuff, because it does seem so much MORE obvious when you're comparing "like for like" kids stood right next to each other.

Its a horrible thing to have to buy into I guess. But uniforms don't change it. Unless it's an actual set uniform provided... But there's no way any state school can afford that, and if parents have to order through the school that can limit choice even further and ends up making it harder for less well off families. I don't know that there is a good solution :shrug:

[Morgan.]

tbf though a pair of decent trainers is 80 quid these days and get your Mum buying you two blazers, mine got one big one, sleeves down around their ankles in year 7 and up to their elbows by Year 11 :laugh:

I took my son out the other day and the trainers were 110.00 quid I nearly died

Yeah I mean that's true - but I always wore my £20 Asda George trainers on non uniform day, and primark clothes, and no one ever mentioned anything about it? I just think the ideology that kids care about brands others are wearing in 2019 is wrong, if anything kids these days care more that they themselves have the designer brand - other than anyone else.

[Liam-]

It's not about being a 'fashion show', it's about expression. We are growing up in a changing world where it's increasingly becoming normal to be different - and we are forcing kids to dress identically and by the book?

And 2/7 days to wear their own clothes is hardly enough time to develop their individual identity :laugh:

They can express themselves through their work, you have your whole life to develop an identity, you need to be able to wear joggers and a tank top to develop yourself.

7 days a week if you consider after school!

It gets them prepared for the real world where there are still rules and regulation about what you can and can’t wear in the workplace.

[Matthew.]

I’m for them but I don’t think it should be things like blazers or kilts etc, just the jumper with a school badge and trousers is fine imo. Like a few posts in here have said, it stops the “I’m better than you because I wear X brand” mentality that goes on

[Twosugars]

I'm for them for the reasons others mentioned already.
And for discipline in schools.

[Morgan.]

They can express themselves through their work, you have your whole life to develop an identity, you need to be able to wear joggers and a tank top to develop yourself.

7 days a week if you consider after school!

It gets them prepared for the real world where there are still rules and regulation about what you can and can’t wear in the workplace.

Yeah I mean that ones a grey area anyway. We finished at 3pm but I attended a club that went until 5 and my bus didn't get me back until 5, and by time I've had dinner, played on my phone a bit and bathed/showered, there's really not much time left in the day.

And I get there's still rules in the workplace - but they're not as strict in terms of hair, piercings, tattoos, colour of socks, length of ties etc that schools are.

[TomC]

Yeah I mean that's true - but I always wore my £20 Asda George trainers on non uniform day, and primark clothes, and no one ever mentioned anything about it? I just think the ideology that kids care about brands others are wearing in 2019 is wrong, if anything kids these days care more that they themselves have the designer brand - other than anyone else.

I mean I literally feel like there’s label pressure at my uni. Sad but true

[LukeB]

Yeah I mean that's true - but I always wore my £20 Asda George trainers on non uniform day, and primark clothes, and no one ever mentioned anything about it? I just think the ideology that kids care about brands others are wearing in 2019 is wrong, if anything kids these days care more that they themselves have the designer brand - other than anyone else.

That's your school though, you can't speak about other schools..It happened at my school. I got complimented because i wore my nike trainers and this other person was wearing non brand trainers and got taken the piss out of.

[bots]

don't make me leave :omgno:

i vote for a no deal chexit

[Morgan.]

I’m for them but I don’t think it should be things like blazers or kilts etc, just the jumper with a school badge and trousers is fine imo. Like a few posts in here have said, it stops the “I’m better than you because I wear X brand” mentality that goes on

Oh yeah, this works too.

My school actually changed uniform policy after I'd finished Year 8. Before we were wore polo shirts, jumpers, black trousers and black shoes of any sort (smart, trainers, pumps etc) and there were rarely rule breaks.

As soon as they switched to shirts, ties, blazers, and smart shoes it was carnage - consistent rule breaks every day and more uproar.

It just needs to be more relaxed.

[user104658]

tbf though a pair of decent trainers is 80 quid these days and get your Mum buying you two blazers, mine got one big one, sleeves down around their ankles in year 7 and up to their elbows by Year 11 [emoji23]

I took my son out the other day and the trainers were 110.00 quid I nearly diedI actually think the clothing situation is worse for boys than girls you know. From my daughters friends (8 - 10 sort of age range) I've noticed that the girls will compliment each other on cute / novel items regardless of brand or cost etc and so a £30 pair of off brand trainers or a £7 top is fine if they're "cute!" but for boys, it's more about the label and something like off-brand trainers would be social suicide. Glad I have girls. For now.

Not so much in 5 years when they start looking at £50 foundation :umm2:

[Liam-]

Yeah I mean that ones a grey area anyway. We finished at 3pm but I attended a club that went until 5 and my bus didn't get me back until 5, and by time I've had dinner, played on my phone a bit and bathed/showered, there's really not much time left in the day.

And I get there's still rules in the workplace - but they're not as strict in terms of hair, piercings, tattoos, colour of socks, length of ties etc that schools are.

In that sense I agree with you, socks and stuff isn’t a major issue, the headmistress of my high school used to hand out black socks to those wearing coloured ones :laugh:

Hair I don’t have an issue with people experimenting with, that’s fair game, as well as peircings if you’re of the age to get them, but uniform for me is a must.

[Morgan.]

I mean I literally feel like there’s label pressure at my uni. Sad but true

That's your school though, you can't speak about other schools..It happened at my school. I got complimented because i wore my nike trainers and this other person was wearing non brand trainers and got taken the piss out of.

Oh ok, I get where you're coming from. I've got friends from other schools in the area, and most share similar experiences to me, but then that's my area. Idk.

[Cherie]

Yeah I mean that's true - but I always wore my £20 Asda George trainers on non uniform day, and primark clothes, and no one ever mentioned anything about it? I just think the ideology that kids care about brands others are wearing in 2019 is wrong, if anything kids these days care more that they themselves have the designer brand - other than anyone else.

I think in that respect cheap clothes have become from outlets like Primark have become very acceptable which is great for everyone, that said times have moved on now in that people throw things away after a few wears which is not great for the environment so one problem is solved but another one is created

[Morgan.]

In that sense I agree with you, socks and stuff isn’t a major issue, the headmistress of my high school used to hand out black socks to those wearing coloured ones :laugh:

Hair I don’t have an issue with people experimenting with, that’s fair game, as well as peircings if you’re of the age to get them, but uniform for me is a must.

For us if you had coloured socks, boys had hair lower than a 2 guard, you had the wrong tie length, you had piercings anywhere other than ears, no tucked in shirt, non-smart shoes it wasn't isolation automatically until it was fixed.

And even the poorer kids, one I remember was a boy who's shoes broke on his way in, was in isolation for about a week and a half until his parents could afford new smart shoes.

[Cherie]

I actually think the clothing situation is worse for boys than girls you know. From my daughters friends (8 - 10 sort of age range) I've noticed that the girls will compliment each other on cute / novel items regardless of brand or cost etc and so a £30 pair of off brand trainers or a £7 top is fine if they're "cute!" but for boys, it's more about the label and something like off-brand trainers would be social suicide. Glad I have girls. For now.

Not so much in 5 years when they start looking at £50 foundation :umm2:

Not really it depends on the kids, my eldest always wore primark stuff and still does, while my youngest does like a brand....not sure where he gets that from :hehe:

[Twosugars]

I actually think the clothing situation is worse for boys than girls you know. From my daughters friends (8 - 10 sort of age range) I've noticed that the girls will compliment each other on cute / novel items regardless of brand or cost etc and so a £30 pair of off brand trainers or a £7 top is fine if they're "cute!" but for boys, it's more about the label and something like off-brand trainers would be social suicide. Glad I have girls. For now.

Not so much in 5 years when they start looking at £50 foundation :umm2:

They won't if their skin is anywhere as good as their daddy's....soft yet firm, velvety smooth and clear :flutter:

[montblanc]

for because it's easier for everyone even though i never had to wear strict uniforms and would hate it :skull:

[Redway]

When you get to work you'll be told to do things and you'll have to do them. Pity school isn't instilling THAT into you.

^

That.

[montblanc]

oh but schools that forces girls to wear skirts and boys to wear pants is discriminatory and should be fixed so anyone has the choice between the two regardless of sex

[Morgan.]

We got reminded that workplaces wouldn't tolerate this standard of dress every time we broke uniform rules, but at the same time when was the last time your workplace got out a ruler to measure the length of your skirt or tie whilst wearing it? I know that's not the case for every school, I was just using the example from my own.

[Twosugars]

oh but schools that forces girls to wear skirts and boys to wear pants is discriminatory and should be fixed so anyone has the choice between the two regardless of sex

slag
only bc you fancy going knickerless in a skirt and flash your ballsack around :eek:

[Redway]

oh but schools that forces girls to wear skirts and boys to wear pants is discriminatory and should be fixed so anyone has the choice between the two regardless of sex

Agreed.

[JerseyWins]

Never had to wear uniforms & I’m glad. Students should have the freedom to express themselves with their outfits.

Also how does it work? You have to wear dirty clothes if you don’t wash your uniform every day? (Which is pretty unreasonable to wash it every day)

[JerseyWins]

And also the freedom to be comfortable with what they wear

[RileyH]

in my school skirts got banned bc all the gals would come in really short ones :skull:

[montblanc]

in my school skirts got banned bc all the gals would come in really short ones :skull:

queens of grimsby

[LukeB]

And also the freedom to be comfortable with what they wear

No one would feel comfortable with what they're wearing if they get bullied for it.

[Tony Montana]

in my school skirts got banned bc all the gals would come in really short ones :skull:

:skull:

[Oliver_W]

I’m for them but I don’t think it should be things like blazers or kilts etc, just the jumper with a school badge and trousers is fine imo. Like a few posts in here have said, it stops the “I’m better than you because I wear X brand” mentality that goes on

I'm for them. It'd reduce the risk of poor kids being ridiculed for cheap trainers and no designer labels. It gives everyone a kind of equality.

You say that, but I work in a school; there are uniforms (blazers lined with the house colours and a white shirt, or polo shirts in the house colours), both the with school crest; also available are the supermarket versions which are allowed, but they're clearly obvious which is which, and that has the same effect as wearing cheap clothes.

[Daniel-X]

For them, I loved my uniform and agree with many things said in here about potential bullying and ridicule for poorer pupils.

[Moniqua]

my school has a winter jacket that has the school crest on it, it's compulsory that we wear it but ah never even bought it WHEW :dazzler:

anytime somebody comes into school with their own jacket, it gets confiscated and it makes me fume WHEW it happened to me and my 86 dollar jacket once and ah nearly ripped Janice's hair out WHEW :oh:

[Ant.]

Never had to wear uniforms & I’m glad. Students should have the freedom to express themselves with their outfits.

Also how does it work? You have to wear dirty clothes if you don’t wash your uniform every day? (Which is pretty unreasonable to wash it every day)

i literally dislike you

[Ant.]

And also the freedom to be comfortable with what they wear

it's NOT THAT DEEP!!! 12 year old Henry is gonna be conformation in black trousers which are less restrictive than any skinny jeans his mum's bought him from Primark!! AND WHAT DID YOU MEAN "EXPRESS THEMSELVES"!!!! WHAT'S THERE TO EXPRESS??? THEY GO TO SCHOOL WEARING JEANS AND A TOP ON NON-UNIFORM DAYS THEY'D JUST BE EXPRESSING THAT THEY'RE BASIC!!!

[Ant.]

my school has a winter jacket that has the school crest on it, it's compulsory that we wear it but ah never even bought it WHEW :dazzler:

anytime somebody comes into school with their own jacket, it gets confiscated and it makes me fume WHEW it happened to me and my 86 dollar jacket once and ah nearly ripped Janice's hair out WHEW :oh:

my coat got stolen in primary school i was crying so much

[Ant.]

in my school skirts got banned bc all the gals would come in really short ones :skull:

a guy got excluded for like a day cuz he wore a skirt in favour of girls being allowed to wear trousers

[Jason.]

I also think having a school uniform encourages students to be more kempt which is good preparation for the workplace. I know not all jobs require you to dress smart, but most interviews do.

You'd be surprised at how many young people just throw on the same sweaty trackies or sloppy jeans and then when it comes to dressing for an occasion, they'll shy away/feel uncomfortable because they've never worn a suit or shoes that aren't trainers before.

[Oliver_W]

Having a uniform with a tie can be useful, I didn't know how to tie a tie until I was about 21, and I've always had the attitude that there's only two good reasons to wear a tie; I reluctantly add a third which is "interviews", but I manage to get away with not wearing one in my current workplace.

[SherzyK]

I’m indifferent when it comes to school uniform but I’m leaning more towards the ‘for’ side of the argument. (I misread the poll and chose against don’t kill me :skull:)

There’s no dress code in sixth form but I always hear people passing judgement on what people wear and some even get bullied for it. School uniforms promote kids to represent their schools and no one would get ostracised for the clothes they wear. For that simple reason, I’m all for it but I’m not against it. :p

[Morgan.]

Having a uniform with a tie can be useful, I didn't know how to tie a tie until I was about 21, and I've always had the attitude that there's only two good reasons to wear a tie; I reluctantly add a third which is "interviews", but I manage to get away with not wearing one in my current workplace.

Our ties were clip on but everyone would remove the clip and unravel it so they could wear it short

[AnnieK]

For.

[Marsh.]

For. Makes everybody equal and stops the worry over what they're going to wear each day.

[Marsh.]

Never had to wear uniforms & I’m glad. Students should have the freedom to express themselves with their outfits.

Also how does it work? You have to wear dirty clothes if you don’t wash your uniform every day? (Which is pretty unreasonable to wash it every day)

Where in "uniform" did you get 1 shirt and 1 pair of trousers?

I'm sure they're capable of buying more than 1 set of clothes that adhere to uniform standards.

If you "express yourself" via some shirt or something then you're probably not very interesting. :hee:

[Marsh.]

It's not about being a 'fashion show', it's about expression. We are growing up in a changing world where it's increasingly becoming normal to be different - and we are forcing kids to dress identically and by the book?

And 2/7 days to wear their own clothes is hardly enough time to develop their individual identity :laugh:

Normal to be different?

:fan: A lot of people like to think they're "different, unique, special" etc but you're really not. :smug:

As for "forcing kids to dress identically". No, there's a uniform to wear for school, wear whatever the hell you want outside of it.

[Cal.]

I’m for them as it reduces bullying BUT how strictly they are regulated is ridiculous.

[Cal.]

I always had 5 shirts and 2 pairs of trousers

[Eddie.]

Having worn uniforms for most of my school life, I am for school uniforms as you can just wear them in the morning, without any fuss of choosing an outfit. It also maintains professionalism?

[Mokka]

Not bothered either way. I think theres many benifits for them, but I don't think it's that big of a deal. Although I believe in some sort of dress code, people shouldn't be going to school dressed up as Batman, just be reasonably smart.

https://sayingimages.com/wp-content/uploads/dress-for-the-job-you-want-batman-memes.jpg

[JerseyWins]

Where in "uniform" did you get 1 shirt and 1 pair of trousers?

I'm sure they're capable of buying more than 1 set of clothes that adhere to uniform standards.

If you "express yourself" via some shirt or something then you're probably not very interesting. :hee:
- First part, ok I figured this was probably how it went but I thought maybe the schools only give like 2 pairs of each or something. And if it is one pair from a school, that's a problem.

Like 5 shirts & 2 pants are fair enough for cleanliness where people only re-wear the same clothes occasionally between each wash.

- Second part, even if it's not expressing themselves, it's allowing kids to have their own style and wardrobe rather than feel obligated to wearing one outfit every day, every week, every year for like 7+ hours a day. :shrug:

[Matthew.]

- First part, ok I figured this was probably how it went but I thought maybe the schools only give like 2 pairs of each or something. And if it is one pair from a school, that's a problem.

Like 5 shirts & 2 pants are fair enough for cleanliness where people only re-wear the same clothes occasionally between each wash.

No, you have to buy the uniform yourself :laugh: So it’s up to you how many of each item you buy

[Ant.]

- First part, ok I figured this was probably how it went but I thought maybe the schools only give like 2 pairs of each or something. And if it is one pair from a school, that's a problem.

Like 5 shirts & 2 pants are fair enough for cleanliness where people only re-wear the same clothes occasionally between each wash.

- Second part, even if it's not expressing themselves, it's allowing kids to have their own style and wardrobe rather than feel obligated to wearing one outfit every day, every week, every year for like 7+ hours a day. :shrug:

School doesn't supply uniforms, which is where there can be an issue, since it's argued that school uniforms can be expensive for people.

As for shirts, given most schools wear button up shirts you can buy in any shop in a multipack, people end up having like 3/4 shirts alone anyway. I always had two pairs of pants but meh

Also it's... not deep. The kid won't exactly be 'expressing' themselves as I'm sure for a good majority of cases their mums will be picking their outfits when they're young and even still I don't know many people at a young age who wears clothes to 'express' themselves. I know you said 'even if' it's not about expressing themselves, but it sorta sounds like you believe the freedom to wear a t-shirt and jeans in school is a healthy way of expressing yourself and it's... not even a form of expression :laugh:

And as people have said, there does come into play that some people may be bullied for their dress sense. I wore chinos one day on non-uniform day and someone was like "HA! Nice chinos" which is... really mild bc I was like, 14 and couldn't care like hurr durr I'm wearing something comfy that I wanna wear, but if I had low self confidence and had something actually bad said to me I'd be pretty bothered especially at a young age. Even if people haven't seen it, it does happen - kids are judged for what they wear. So then they want clothes which will mean they'll fit in with the others, and then they'll outgrow clothes, then they'll want new clothes, then they need new clothes for new fashion, it all becomes a ridiculous cycle that's avoided by asking kids to wear the same thing.

I do think it becomes ridiculous when it comes to girls not being allowed to wear trousers (I can't think of a time in which it wouldn't be allowed in any work environment to wear trousers instead of a skirt but meh) and on short haircuts and maybe one or two other ridiculously strict rules but overall the idea of uniform is great to me. Kids can wear what they want outside of school, and they can wear what they like outside of work.

Will all jobs require a uniform? Not necessarily. In fact, some jobs need strict uniform rules for hygiene purposes. It certainly makes a kid familiar with having to wear the same thing in work every day and while no doubt they could learn to just... be comfortable wearing the same thing nearly every day as they get there, they could also just like, learn as a kid

Like maybe it's just me and my friends but we've never had an issue with having to wear uniform. Like genuinely I wasn't fussed about not being able to wear trainers or having to wear a jumper to school. It was comfortable. I didn't feel 'obligated', I was made to wear it but I certainly didn't feel like I have to. Now obviously not everyone likes uniform but I've yet to meet a person to be bothered by uniform. Kids =/= adults yes, but uniform is uniform, regardless of age. Like I can sorta see where you're coming from but uniform isn't as bad as you think

[JerseyWins]

No, you have to buy the uniform yourself :laugh: So it’s up to you how many of each item you buy
Oh ok that's pretty good then, so at least it's up to the student/their parents on how many pairs they want to buy & have at their disposal :clap1:


But another thing, how the hell do uniforms prevent bullying? :skull: There are still ways to get bullied for your uniform (dirty, worn out, if the person doesn't look good wearing it or doesn't wear it the "cool way" or something like that). Not to mention if a poor student's the victim of bullying from being poor, then the uniforms probably aren't going to change that especially outside of school.

A fear of bullying should not be a selling point for uniforms, they should be taking measures to prevent the bullying not prevent a student's originality and comfort with themselves (physically & mentally with what they wear).

[Marsh.]

- First part, ok I figured this was probably how it went but I thought maybe the schools only give like 2 pairs of each or something. And if it is one pair from a school, that's a problem.

Like 5 shirts & 2 pants are fair enough for cleanliness where people only re-wear the same clothes occasionally between each wash.

- Second part, even if it's not expressing themselves, it's allowing kids to have their own style and wardrobe rather than feel obligated to wearing one outfit every day, every week, every year for like 7+ hours a day. :shrug:

Because god forbid kids are instilled with a bit of discipline that life isn't about everything they want?

Next you'll be saying they shouldn't feel "obligated" to attend school at all.

[JerseyWins]

Because god forbid kids are instilled with a bit of discipline that life isn't about everything they want?

Next you'll be saying they shouldn't feel "obligated" to attend school at all.
Taking away part of what makes them creative and their own person =/= discipline

Of course, there are other ways to show originality and creativity, and for more personality-based reasons which is more important, but matching, restricted uniforms just set a bad precedent for that and it's just so basic with all the students wearing the same thing. It's not that serious lol, just let them wear what they want as kids & teenagers ffs. :joker:

[Marsh.]

Of course, there are other ways to show originality and creativity, and for more personality-based reasons which is more important, but matching, restricted uniforms just set a bad precedent for that and it's just so basic with all the students wearing the same thing. It's not that serious lol, just let them wear what they want as kids & teenagers ffs. :joker:

Well, you are taking it that seriously if you think it's impacting their development as individuals. You can't have it both ways.

"So basic". Maybe if more schools had uniform, kids would come up with less "basic" phrases.

Taking away part of what makes them creative and their own person =/= discipline

If your "own person" is in a pair of jeans you need help IMHO.

[JerseyWins]

Well, you are taking it that seriously if you think it's impacting their development as individuals. You can't have it both ways.

"So basic". Maybe if more schools had uniform, kids would come up with less "basic" phrases.



If your "own person" is in a pair of jeans you need help IMHO.
How am I taking it serious? I'm just saying how I feel about uniforms and I have people like you & Ant saying it's invalid. When it comes down to it I just think students should wear what they want in school. Are piercings / tattoos / hairstyles / etc. not a way for people to express themselves and show their own creative/unique style? It's the same thing with clothing.

Also "Maybe if more schools had uniform, kids would come up with less "basic" phrases."

You might just be sarcastic, at least I'd hope, but what a basic way of thinking. Uniforms have nothing to do with a kid's learning. The only thing it can possibly do is hurt their learning/attendance if they don't like the uniforms and/or don't feel comfortable in class. It's like Jason saying that wearing uniforms will make students more inclined to dress better in the future for job interviews. That's not true, students can and should easily learn what they should/shouldn't wear for a job interview & job/business/formal setting on their own. It doesn't mean they need to have a restricted specific outfit for school every day to learn that. :joker:

I don't think there's a benefit in it for the students outside of it being easier for them to pick an outfit in the morning (since they literally don't have to make a choice). So why do it if no real benefit? That's just what I think. :shrug:

A school might prefer it to "look better" or be more in-sync and that's why I think we do see schools with uniforms but that doesn't mean everyone has to agree lol.

[Marsh.]

How am I taking it serious? I'm just saying how I feel about uniforms and I have people like you & Ant saying it's invalid. When it comes down to it I just think students should wear what they want in school. Are piercings / tattoos / hairstyles / etc. not a way for people to express themselves and show their own creative/unique style? It's the same thing with clothing.

Well "Taking away part of what makes them creative and their own person" is pretty serious.

Also "Maybe if more schools had uniform, kids would come up with less "basic" phrases."

You might just be sarcastic, at least I'd hope, but what a basic way of thinking.

Basic again. Mix it up, be creative and original. Use other words. ;)

Maybe focussing less on their outfits in school (which they can still focus on outside of school anyway) it forces the kids to be creative and original in other more important ways.

[Jordan.]

The pros of a uniform far outweigh the seemingly one con of "how will I possibly express my huge personality for these 6 hours of the day :oh:"

[JerseyWins]

Well "Taking away part of what makes them creative and their own person" is pretty serious.
Well this part is literally a fact so I guess it is serious then :shrug:

Maybe focussing less on their outfits in school (which they can still focus on outside of school anyway) it forces the kids to be creative and original in other more important ways.
Well I already said there are different & more important ways to be creative and original. Doesn't mean attire isn't one of those ways though even if it's not so important. A lot of people like to pick out and create outfits that show their uniqueness. And some may just like to feel comfortable in a learning environment. I'm not saying it's something that's going to scar them :skull: but they should have that freedom if you ask me.

Meanwhile the benefits of uniforms in school for the students are?

[JerseyWins]

The pros of a uniform far outweigh the seemingly one con of "how will I possibly express my huge personality for these 6 hours of the day :oh:"
Why are these uniforms so important though? It's not going to change them mentally, the only thing it CAN do is make them feel restricted and/or uncomfortable. Are they going to feel empowered for having the same outfit as everyone else? Idgi

And it gives them 5 extra minutes in the morning that they would've wasted on picking out an outfit.

[Marsh.]

Well this part is literally a fact so I guess it is serious then :shrug:

:joker::joker::joker:

How so?


Well I already said there are different & more important ways to be creative and original. Doesn't mean attire isn't one of those ways though even if it's not so important. A lot of people like to pick out and create outfits that show their uniqueness. And some may just like to feel comfortable in a learning environment. I'm not saying it's something that's going to scar them :skull: but they should have that freedom if you ask me.

Meanwhile the benefits of uniforms in school for the students are?

But... they have that freedom. School is 6 hours a day, 5 days a week.

[Marsh.]

Why are these uniforms so important though? It's not going to change them mentally, the only thing it CAN do is make them feel restricted and/or uncomfortable. Are they going to feel empowered for having the same outfit as everyone else? Idgi

And it gives them 5 extra minutes in the morning that they would've wasted on picking out an outfit.

So, it's not important, not going to change them, but it's such a big deal that Jennie NEEDS to wear her jeans to school to express how different and unique and original she is and it's being stifled by uniform rules?

Ok.

[JerseyWins]

So, it's not important, not going to change them, but it's such a big deal that Jennie NEEDS to wear her jeans to school to express how different and unique and original she is and it's being stifled by uniform rules?

Ok.
You're looking too far into it just because I said clothes help people express themselves (it's not this huge important psychological thing but it's a fact). It's a less important way of someone expressing themselves through their personality. Take that out of it though:

It's as simple as: if a kid wants to wear sweats & a t-shirt to school, they shouldn't be told no they have to wear this restricted uniform in order to LEARN because their parents want them going to that school with these uniform rules in place. The student's education is all that should matter that's why I don't think schools should have uniforms.

I want to know why it's such a big benefit for the students to have the uniform rules in place. :shrug:

[JerseyWins]

To add to that:

"It's such a big deal that Jennie NEEDS to wear her jeans to school"

It's not and I'm not saying it is. You're arguing against a student having the freedom to wear what they want and giving no real reasons why either lmao. There should be reasons to go against the NORM of everyday life of picking out your clothes in the morning like any adult would do :joker:

Is it such a big deal if a kid wants to wear sweat pants & a comfy shirt to school? I really don't think it should be and that's my whole argument.

School: Uniforms are a thing
Me: Is it such a big deal that kids might want to dress freely?
You: Is it such a big deal that kids might want to dress freely?

:conf:

[Marsh.]

To add to that:

"It's such a big deal that Jennie NEEDS to wear her jeans to school"

It's not and I'm not saying it is. You're arguing against a student having the freedom to wear what they want and giving no real reasons why either lmao. There should be reasons to go against the NORM of everyday life of picking out your clothes in the morning like any adult would do :joker:

Against the norm of everyday life?

So, men go to work in suits and ties and women in pencil skirts and blouses because that was their own individual, original and creative choice that is unique to them and no one else? :joker: Ok.

What's your next comment? Kids should be allowed to decide whether to go to school because adults get to decide whether they go to their job?

School: Uniforms are a thing
Me: Is it such a big deal that kids might want to dress freely?
You: Is it such a big deal that kids might want to dress freely?

Erm, no, I'm asking why you think uniform is a bad idea, your answer being that it stifles them creatively and as individuals then in the same breath saying "So what if there's no uniform it aint a big deal". It's either a big deal or it isn't, you can't use both arguments.

[Marsh.]

You're looking too far into it just because I said clothes help people express themselves (it's not this huge important psychological thing but it's a fact). It's a less important way of someone expressing themselves through their personality. Take that out of it though:

It's as simple as: if a kid wants to wear sweats & a t-shirt to school, they shouldn't be told no they have to wear this restricted uniform in order to LEARN because their parents want them going to that school with these uniform rules in place. The student's education is all that should matter that's why I don't think schools should have uniforms.

But this doesn't make sense. If the education is all that should matter, what's the issue with uniforms?

Also, over here it's not a case of "Wear it because your parents chose this school" the vast majority of schools have uniforms. It's the "norm" funnily enough.

[Jordan.]

The funny thing is the students that actually care about their education, follow the rules and generally have their priorities in the right place don't give a **** if they have to wear a uniform, it's the one's who are defiant for the sake of it that kick up a fuss.

[JerseyWins]

Against the norm of everyday life?

So, men go to work in suits and ties and women in pencil skirts and blouses because that was their own individual, original and creative choice that is unique to them and no one else? :joker: Ok.
They choose their own outfits though? Usually it just has to be formally dressed. They do it for someone's business and get paid as well... if for some reason they didn't like the dress code they don't even have to take the job. It's still perfectly free.

But this doesn't make sense. If the education is all that should matter, what's the issue with uniforms?

Also, over here it's not a case of "Wear it because your parents chose this school" the vast majority of schools have uniforms. It's the "norm" funnily enough.
Because what the students are wearing doesn't affect their train of thought so why is the school implementing this? (but in some rare cases it can negatively affect their learning if they're distracted with how uncomfortable they are or how much they don't like it tho - or if they become rebellious from it)

You're acting like my argument is against students learning because uniforms are a necessity or something. Uniforms don't make them smarter or learn more efficiently.

And it became the norm but that doesn't mean it was or should be, normality in life is: Person buys & chooses their outfits to wear. That's how society works :shrug: People aren't forced to do anything.

If you think uniforms are good then so be it but at least give me some reasons then :shrug:

Erm, no, I'm asking why you think uniform is a bad idea, your answer being that it stifles them creatively and as individuals then in the same breath saying "So what if there's no uniform it aint a big deal". It's either a big deal or it isn't, you can't use both arguments.
It does limit them creatively in one of the many ways you can express yourself creatively. They can still be creative in other ways, that's why it's not that big of a deal when it comes down to it, but I don't see why they should be restricted in how they can dress as long as it's not too revealing... Again, I'm not making some big psychological argument where the kids won't develop properly if they're wearing school uniforms like you're trying to make out lol.. But if little Jimmy would like to learn in sweat pants & a hoodie or their favorite jeans that should be all cool and dandy IMO. They'll learn just the same if not more relaxed & focused.

Some may like the uniforms, some may not... it should be an option at least :shrug:

I'm asking you why it's a good idea and you're giving me nothing.

[JerseyWins]

The funny thing is the students that actually care about their education, follow the rules and generally have their priorities in the right place don't give a **** if they have to wear a uniform, it's the one's who are defiant for the sake of it that kick up a fuss.
Those students are going to have their priorities straight regardless of a uniform or not, so why give the ones who aren't in that same state of mind another reason to revolt and not be happy with learning?

It's not free and it's not logical :idc:

[Marsh.]

Those students are going to have their priorities straight regardless of a uniform or not, so why give the ones who aren't in that same state of mind another reason to revolt and not be happy with learning?

Why would they revolt? It's not that serious, or is it?


It's not free and it's not logical :idc:

And wearing your own clothes is free? In many cases it will be many times more. :conf:

[Jordan.]

Those students are going to have their priorities straight regardless of a uniform or not, so why give the ones who aren't in that same state of mind another reason to revolt and not be happy with learning?

It's not free and it's not logical :idc:

If they're not happy with the rules they signed up for when they applied for the school they still have all the freedom in the world to go elsewhere.

[Marsh.]

They choose their own outfits though? Usually it just has to be formally dressed. They do it for someone's business and get paid as well... if for some reason they didn't like the dress code they don't even have to take the job. It's still perfectly free.

Didn't have to take the job? :joker:


Because what the students are wearing doesn't affect their train of thought so why is the school implementing this? (but in some rare cases it can negatively affect their learning if they're distracted with how uncomfortable they are or how much they don't like it tho - or if they become rebellious from it)

You're acting like my argument is against students learning because uniforms are a necessity or something. Uniforms don't make them smarter or learn more efficiently.

I'm not. I'm responding to you contradicting your arguments for own clothes and against uniforms.

So, do you think we should allow own clothes because clothing doesn't affect them or their learning or are we against uniforms because "they're uncomfortable" enough to affect their learning? Although, if the uniform is the right size and fit there's no reason for it to not be comfortable.

It does limit them creatively in one of the many ways you can express yourself creatively. They can still be creative in other ways, that's why it's not that big of a deal when it comes down to it, but I don't see why they should be restricted in how they can dress as long as it's not too revealing... Again, I'm not making some big psychological argument where the kids won't develop properly if they're wearing school uniforms like you're trying to make out lol.. But if little Jimmy would like to learn in sweat pants & a hoodie or their favorite jeans that should be all cool and dandy IMO. They'll learn just the same if not more relaxed & focused.

So you're not making a psychological argument... until you are making one as Jimmy is more focussed?

[JerseyWins]

Why would they revolt? It's not that serious, or is it?



And wearing your own clothes is free? In many cases it will be many times more. :conf:
To a kid, especially not in the right frame of mind, it could easily be :joker:

I thought this was a serious debate but you literally give no input to pro-uniforms or even responses to my actual argument... It's just literally "JENNIE needs to wear her jeans" and smartass comments like that. So I guess I'm done with my point :joker:

If they're not happy with the rules they signed up for when they applied for the school they still have all the freedom in the world to go elsewhere.
Do the parents not decide the schools their students go to over there?

[JerseyWins]

I'm not. I'm responding to you contradicting your arguments for own clothes and against uniforms.

So, do you think we should allow own clothes because clothing doesn't affect them or their learning or are we against uniforms because "they're uncomfortable" enough to affect their learning? Although, if the uniform is the right size and fit there's no reason for it to not be comfortable.
So everyone is comfortable in every type of clothing? Every guy is comfortable wearing let's say a button up shirt & slacks and every girl is comfortable wearing a skirt? Ok boss :joker:

I think you guys should allow own clothes in school because that's the natural way of life yes :shrug:

So you're not making a psychological argument... until you are making one as Jimmy is more focussed?
I said it's not a big psychological argument where kids won't develop properly... it's a psychological argument (potentially in the minds of some students) but not as deep as you're saying it is.

EDIT: Enough to question why schools have uniforms? Sure I don't see why not when it doesn't help them learn more efficiently. It's only possible for them to learn less efficiently. Probable? No. But possible in certain cases.

[Marsh.]

Well, your comment would make sense if there was one "button up shirt" and one "skirt". There isn't.

"Natural way of life" :joker:

"It's not psychological" "It's a psychological argument" Which is it?

"It doesn't affect their learning" "It's only possible for them to learn less efficiently" Do you wanna try that one again? :/

[Marsh.]

To a kid, especially not in the right frame of mind, it could easily be :joker:

I thought this was a serious debate but you literally give no input to pro-uniforms or even responses to my actual argument... It's just literally "JENNIE needs to wear her jeans" and smartass comments like that. So I guess I'm done with my point :joker:

You expected serious responses to "Uniforms are unnatural and prevent children from expressing their individual unique and specialness". Ok. :joker:

And a kid not in the right frame of mind? The answer to that is the kid is revolting because they're "not in the right frame of mind" not because she's wearing the same clothes as the other girls in her class.

[user104658]

I mean no one is really willing to address the fact that the same thing still happens anyway; some people have quality uniforms (good cut, good fit, good fabric) and others have primary tat that rips up the arse the first time they bend down to pick up a pencil :shrug:. Plus nicer coats, bags, shoes... You can still tell who the poorer kids are. It was that way at both of my schools and its still the same at my daughter's primary school.

I mean on balance I'm actually FOR uniforms... I think it's a better aesthetic for a school... Though I don't think it's of huge importance and I don't think it has much impact on bullying at all and honestly if anything I think kids are more likely to be bullied for a scruffy / too small uniform than for wearing cheap casual clothes.

[Morgan.]

I mean no one is really willing to address the fact that the same thing still happens anyway; some people have quality uniforms (good cut, good fit, good fabric) and others have primary tat that rips up the arse the first time they bend down to pick up a pencil :shrug:. Plus nicer coats, bags, shoes... You can still tell who the poorer kids are. It was that way at both of my schools and its still the same at my daughter's primary school.

I mean on balance I'm actually FOR uniforms... I think it's a better aesthetic for a school... Though I don't think it's of huge importance and I don't think it has much impact on bullying at all and honestly if anything I think kids are more likely to be bullied for a scruffy / too small uniform than for wearing cheap casual clothes.

Agree with almost everything here

[Crimson Dynamo]

Of course its a good idea

better for parents, better for the school, better for cohesion and identitiy and it stops children wasting money by being hoodwinked by marketing any more than they get at weekends.

I agree its still easy to spot the poorer kids but its not meant to totally cloak "wealth" its to try and stop children flaunting it through ignorant parents (they ones who live in a 3 bed semi but drive a compact Range Rover on £550 finance a month and can barely pay their gas bill, or drive a small BMW even though its unreliable, sh1t in snow and expensive to run). Its to stop childrn having to !"worry" about what they wear everyday and obsess about "what others think of them" and fitting in with the popular tribe etc etc

School is to learn about things you can use all through your life and its not about being popular and children have to be protected from themselves until finally the penny drops (in their late 20s!)

[Nicky91]

against

they look so ugly and uncomfortable

[Crimson Dynamo]

against

they look so ugly and uncomfortable

do you even understand why they were introduced?

[Nicky91]

do you even understand why they were introduced?

no and i don't need to know

[Niamh.]

For, although I had a massive issue with girls having to wear skirts when I was at school, got into alot of arguments with teachers about it. My own daughter has a choice and surprise surprise about 99% of the girls at her school chose to wear trousers ........

So yeah i think it saves time in the mornings and makes life easier in general for parents and students

[Crimson Dynamo]

no and i don't need to know





:facepalm:

[Marsh.]

against

they look so ugly and uncomfortable

no and i don't need to know

:joker:

[bots]

I am personally all for school uniforms ...... on young ladies over the age of 18 :smug:

[SherzyK]

Leave Jersey alone :fist:

[JerseyWins]

Well, your comment would make sense if there was one "button up shirt" and one "skirt". There isn't.

"Natural way of life" :joker:

"It's not psychological" "It's a psychological argument" Which is it?

"It doesn't affect their learning" "It's only possible for them to learn less efficiently" Do you wanna try that one again? :/
Do you nitpick at what I say to try to look for contradictions while not even quoting the next few words that answer your questions?

- There are restrictions and guidelines on the shirt/skirt/etc. Some might be more lenient though which is not that bad then but they’re not all like that.

- It’s not a huge psychological argument that will affect a kid’s growth but there are some underlying, potential psychological elements to it.

- It doesn’t affect their learning positively. It can only in some rare cases affect them negatively. Can’t say the same thing for pro-uniforms.

I already specified all this in previous posts but hopefully that’s more clear as I try not to keep repeating myself and think it’d be obvious what I mean.

You expected serious responses to "Uniforms are unnatural and prevent children from expressing their individual unique and specialness". Ok. :joker:

And a kid not in the right frame of mind? The answer to that is the kid is revolting because they're "not in the right frame of mind" not because she's wearing the same clothes as the other girls in her class.
And giving them uniforms is an easy way to give them something to revolt to... and for what? Little to no reason

You say my argument is ridiculous but the Big Pro-Uniforms argument that it prevents bullying isn’t? Why not stop the bullying head-on rather than putting a bandaid on a broken finger by giving them uniforms? :joker: As if that’s a difference maker that they can’t just as easily get picked on for & rub some of the more troubled students the wrong way for little to no reason.

[Marsh.]

You saying it affects them psychologically doesn't make it a fact.

If uniforms is an "easy" thing for a troublemaker to revolt against so is the fact that school is compulsory, that they can't talk in class, can't use their phone, can only eat at designated break times. You could literally use that argument against anything and everything that isn't letting the kids do whatever they want whenever they want. That isn't life I'm afraid.

I haven't mentioned bullying.

[RileyH]

jersey clocked :clap1:

[RileyH]

no and i don't need to know

nnn

[Withano]

For, definitely. But the schools with optional accessories know where it’s at (shirt/polo, jumper/hoody/blazer, shorts/skirts/trousers, even know a school with an optional baseball-style cap). A uniform shouldn’t mean everybody dresses the same imo.

[JerseyWins]

You saying it affects them psychologically doesn't make it a fact.

If uniforms is an "easy" thing for a troublemaker to revolt against so is the fact that school is compulsory, that they can't talk in class, can't use their phone, can only eat at designated break times. You could literally use that argument against anything and everything that isn't letting the kids do whatever they want whenever they want. That isn't life I'm afraid.

I haven't mentioned bullying.
All of those things prevent learning efficiently though? I’m all for rules that give the students a better education. Like come on Marsh, this is like the 5th time at least that you’ve made some bogus argument against like, one specific word or part in my post (like “psychological”) without simply using context clues in the point being made and thinking a little bit critically. :joker: You’ve yet to make a point FOR uniforms either so how does your point even hold any weight? Fear of contradiction which you seem to be obsessed over? :hehe: Because many reasons for pro-uniforms are very contradictory to what you’re arguing against here... I’m just waiting to see if you have a point that I can respond more properly to :shrug: It’s a bit of a psychological area either way you look at it, key word on bit not the silly exaggerations you’re making, but whether it’s actually a benefit or detriment is what should be considered more and why and if it’s actually necessary in the end. I think pointless or potential detriment more than it ever benefits. From a school perspective I see a lot more why it could benefit them than actual benefits from the students.

And just once more, I said it wasn’t this big psychological uproar you’re making it out to be. It could have some minor psychological impact on kids, good or bad, but I disagree with the points of it being good. Again, I personally think it can only negatively impact a student in class / at school. :idc:

At least someone like LT and a few others actually made some points even if I mostly disagree. The whole “unity” thing is imo a very basic (yeah I’m using that word again), rudimentary way of thinking. Like it’s a cute way to think but not actually very effective for obvious reasons (TS got into it a bit & I did a little bit already). They can and should become united while dressing freely, that’s how the world works. When I’m out of work I might get into LT’s other points as well.

[Marsh.]

All of those things prevent learning efficiently though? I’m all for rules that give the students a better education. Like come on Marsh, this is like the 5th time at least that you’ve made some bogus argument against like, one specific word or part in my post (like “psychological”) without simply using context clues in the point being made and thinking a little bit critically. :joker: You’ve yet to make a point FOR uniforms either so how does your point even hold any weight? Fear of contradiction which you seem to be obsessed over? :hehe: Because many reasons for pro-uniforms are very contradictory to what you’re arguing against here... I’m just waiting to see if you have a point that I can respond more properly to :shrug: It’s a bit of a psychological area either way you look at it, key word on bit not the silly exaggerations you’re making, but whether it’s actually a benefit or detriment is what should be considered more and why and if it’s actually necessary in the end. I think pointless or potential detriment more than it ever benefits. From a school perspective I see a lot more why it could benefit them than actual benefits from the students.

And just once more, I said it wasn’t this big psychological uproar you’re making it out to be. It could have some minor psychological impact on kids, good or bad, but I disagree with the points of it being good. Again, I personally think it can only negatively impact a student in class / at school. :idc:

At least someone like LT and a few others actually made some points even if I mostly disagree. The whole “unity” thing is imo a very basic (yeah I’m using that word again), rudimentary way of thinking. Like it’s a cute way to think but not actually very effective for obvious reasons (TS got into it a bit & I did a little bit already). They can and should become united while dressing freely, that’s how the world works. When I’m out of work I might get into LT’s other points as well.

I've said why I support them. Using other people's opinions to try and contradict mine doesn't change you contradicting yourself.

You've tied yourself up in knots and continue to do so. "It's not psychological... it's a bit of a psychological area". Good grief.

Great, you're loving LT's work, great. Has zero to do with me sunshine.

[JerseyWins]

I've said why I support them. Using other people's opinions to try and contradict mine doesn't change you contradicting yourself.

You've tied yourself up in knots and continue to do so. "It's not psychological... it's a bit of a psychological area". Good grief.

Great, you're loving LT's work, great. Has zero to do with me sunshine.
:joker: Dude you're literally spinning in circles over reading one word in a sentence, not understanding what I meant by it, and just repeating it over and over even after I thought I cleared it up. You've done this with multiple points. Wording over full context of the point being made. :rolleyes:

Use context clues... this is what I said when you thought I meant this isn't psychological at all, I wasn't saying it wasn't at all:

"I'm not making some big psychological argument where the kids won't develop properly" There are different levels to how things will effect people/kids psychologically, it's not all black and white like you're saying and that's why you think I'm contradicting my argument. So because I'm saying there can be some little psychological elements to it (on both sides of the argument tbh), it's a BIG DEAL and means I'm calling it a major psychological issue? There can be major and/or minor psychological arguments to be made on a situation. But if you're still stuck on that then idk :laugh:

It's obviously psychological, pro-uniforms is a psychological thing, anti-uniforms is a psychological thing.. but is it a serious psychological case that's going to stump a child's mental growth or something serious like that like you're exaggerating? I don't think so... maybe it can be for certain kids? :shrug: But my points are a LOT more simpler than that on a grander scheme. It may have been worded poorly but I always said it IS psychological, just not the over-dramatics you keep saying it is.

EDIT: Another quote in response to your record-playing: "- It’s not a huge psychological argument that will affect a kid’s growth but there are some underlying, potential psychological elements to it." Is it that hard to understand this is what I meant ???

And what are your points for pro-uniforms then? You've asked me a ton of questions and I'm answering. I've asked you this countless times now and you don't give a simple breakdown or anything. :skull:

[JerseyWins]

Even if you want to say I contradicted myself... like... do you understand it now then after I explain what I actually mean by what I said?

[JerseyWins]

Ok looking through other posts in the thread...

I mean no one is really willing to address the fact that the same thing still happens anyway; some people have quality uniforms (good cut, good fit, good fabric) and others have primary tat that rips up the arse the first time they bend down to pick up a pencil :shrug:. Plus nicer coats, bags, shoes... You can still tell who the poorer kids are. It was that way at both of my schools and its still the same at my daughter's primary school.

I mean on balance I'm actually FOR uniforms... I think it's a better aesthetic for a school... Though I don't think it's of huge importance and I don't think it has much impact on bullying at all and honestly if anything I think kids are more likely to be bullied for a scruffy / too small uniform than for wearing cheap casual clothes.
I addressed these things in one of my first few posts in this thread before the paragraphs of back and forth rambling :joker:

But great all-around post Toy Soldier :clap1:

Of course its a good idea

better for parents, better for the school, better for cohesion and identitiy and it stops children wasting money by being hoodwinked by marketing any more than they get at weekends.

I agree its still easy to spot the poorer kids but its not meant to totally cloak "wealth" its to try and stop children flaunting it through ignorant parents (they ones who live in a 3 bed semi but drive a compact Range Rover on £550 finance a month and can barely pay their gas bill, or drive a small BMW even though its unreliable, sh1t in snow and expensive to run). Its to stop childrn having to !"worry" about what they wear everyday and obsess about "what others think of them" and fitting in with the popular tribe etc etc

School is to learn about things you can use all through your life and its not about being popular and children have to be protected from themselves until finally the penny drops (in their late 20s!)
Actually I think these are all pretty fair arguments but it's more for the parents than the schools to teach upon their kids. So if some kids are going to be materialistic and flaunt what they have, other kids should be sheltered from this during school hours and limited in one of the ways they can express themselves in their own way? Whether fitting in or taking a stand on something, this is all part of growing up for kids. Uniforms aren't going to limit the cliques, and the worries, and the bullying etc... these things will happen all the time in schools with uniforms as well. I don't think it can be hidden from children whether it's 6 hours in a day with their peers or throughout the entire day. It's not something uniforms fix IMO. And it's just not of importance for a kid's education so why are schools essentially censoring them during school hours? They should be free & casual, or whatever they'd like, with what they wear to go learn. :shrug:

For, although I had a massive issue with girls having to wear skirts when I was at school, got into alot of arguments with teachers about it. My own daughter has a choice and surprise surprise about 99% of the girls at her school chose to wear trousers ........

So yeah i think it saves time in the mornings and makes life easier in general for parents and students
That's good, I don't mind it as much if there's some choice so that the kids don't feel uncomfortable or forced into wearing something :clap1: There's some more decision making there for what they like and want to wear while learning.

I personally think the saving time argument is an exaggeration though tbh. It should in most cases save maybe 5 minutes or less per morning to not have to pick out an outfit... and if the uniforms are delayed / mis-scheduled in the wash or misplaced somewhere then that's going to actually take a lot of extra time.

I do think it's a pretty good thing for parents though as they'd likely be saving some money on kids' outfits (assuming the prices to get a uniform are reasonable which I believe they are mostly pretty affordable).

[Marsh.]

Jersey: It's not serious...

Also Jersey:

:joker: Dude you're literally spinning in circles over reading one word in a sentence, not understanding what I meant by it, and just repeating it over and over even after I thought I cleared it up. You've done this with multiple points. Wording over full context of the point being made. :rolleyes:

Use context clues... this is what I said when you thought I meant this isn't psychological at all, I wasn't saying it wasn't at all:

"I'm not making some big psychological argument where the kids won't develop properly" There are different levels to how things will effect people/kids psychologically, it's not all black and white like you're saying and that's why you think I'm contradicting my argument. So because I'm saying there can be some little psychological elements to it (on both sides of the argument tbh), it's a BIG DEAL and means I'm calling it a major psychological issue? There can be major and/or minor psychological arguments to be made on a situation. But if you're still stuck on that then idk :laugh:

It's obviously psychological, pro-uniforms is a psychological thing, anti-uniforms is a psychological thing.. but is it a serious psychological case that's going to stump a child's mental growth or something serious like that like you're exaggerating? I don't think so... maybe it can be for certain kids? :shrug: But my points are a LOT more simpler than that on a grander scheme. It may have been worded poorly but I always said it IS psychological, just not the over-dramatics you keep saying it is.

EDIT: Another quote in response to your record-playing: "- It’s not a huge psychological argument that will affect a kid’s growth but there are some underlying, potential psychological elements to it." Is it that hard to understand this is what I meant ???

And what are your points for pro-uniforms then? You've asked me a ton of questions and I'm answering. I've asked you this countless times now and you don't give a simple breakdown or anything. :skull:

Even if you want to say I contradicted myself... like... do you understand it now then after I explain what I actually mean by what I said?

Ok looking through other posts in the thread...


I addressed these things in one of my first few posts in this thread before the paragraphs of back and forth rambling :joker:

But great all-around post Toy Soldier :clap1:


Actually I think these are all pretty fair arguments but it's more for the parents than the schools to teach upon their kids. So if some kids are going to be materialistic and flaunt what they have, other kids should be sheltered from this during school hours and limited in one of the ways they can express themselves in their own way? Whether fitting in or taking a stand on something, this is all part of growing up for kids. Uniforms aren't going to limit the cliques, and the worries, and the bullying etc... these things will happen all the time in schools with uniforms as well. I don't think it can be hidden from children whether it's 6 hours in a day with their peers or throughout the entire day. It's not something uniforms fix IMO. And it's just not of importance for a kid's education so why are schools essentially censoring them during school hours? They should be free & casual, or whatever they'd like, with what they wear to go learn. :shrug:


That's good, I don't mind it as much if there's some choice so that the kids don't feel uncomfortable or forced into wearing something :clap1: There's some more decision making there for what they like and want to wear while learning.

I personally think the saving time argument is an exaggeration though tbh. It should in most cases save maybe 5 minutes or less per morning to not have to pick out an outfit... and if the uniforms are delayed / mis-scheduled in the wash or misplaced somewhere then that's going to actually take a lot of extra time.

I do think it's a pretty good thing for parents though as they'd likely be saving some money on kids' outfits (assuming the prices to get a uniform are reasonable which I believe they are mostly pretty affordable).

[Marsh.]

Even if you want to say I contradicted myself... like... do you understand it now then after I explain what I actually mean by what I said?

There was never a point when I didn't understand. Hence me pointing out your wild contradictions.

Like I'm exaggerating? I haven't suggested kids are psychologically affected by not being able to wear trainers at all. :idc:

[JerseyWins]

Jersey: It's not serious...

Also Jersey:
There was never a point when I didn't understand. Hence me pointing out your wild contradictions.

Like I'm exaggerating? I haven't suggested kids are psychologically affected by not being able to wear trainers at all. :idc:
You're being smug, condescending, and a sarcastic smartass in every post. :joker: It's a serious debate now from my perspective. I'm just trying to debate against school uniforms while you're simply zoning in on specific delusional contradictions even after I draw it out how they're not contradictions at all. It's just something you haven't wrapped around being more than a black and white concept lol.

The debate seems to be over for you at this point though... now I don't even know your counter-argument yet when it's ended after countless back and forth posts :laugh:

Just curious, have you learned psychology? Many kids do and will get psychologically affected if they don't feel comfortable in their own clothes btw. It's actually a common argument FOR school uniforms as well (ie within the bullying argument) but it depends which way you look at it and which psychological side you agree with, for schools to have it or not. But that's already obvious and not an exaggeration unless you make it out to be something bigger than it is. My point with this in particular: I disagree that sheltering kids from wearing their own clothes is going to be a fix for bullying. It's putting a bandaid on a broken finger and not taking the right actions whatsoever.

[Jessica.]

I liked wearing uniform because I didn't have proper clothes to wear day to day. I think they're good and there wasn't really an option to wear cheaper or more expensive versions of our specific uniform, it all had to be the same one from the same shop. The most popular shoes were actually some plain black ones from a very cheap shoe shop.

Times have changed a lot in the past ten years since I was in school and I think most young people don't care about labels and prefer to express their own style.

So I think my answer is both.

[Marsh.]

You're being smug, condescending, and a sarcastic smartass in every post. :joker:

And you're being contradictory, silly and a bit thick.

(See, we can both make personal remarks).

The debate seems to be over for you at this point though... now I don't even know your counter-argument yet when it's ended after countless back and forth posts :laugh:

Just curious, have you learned psychology? Many kids do and will get psychologically affected if they don't feel comfortable in their own clothes btw. It's actually a common argument FOR school uniforms as well (ie within the bullying argument) but it depends which way you look at it and which psychological side you agree with, for schools to have it or not. But that's already obvious and not an exaggeration unless you make it out to be something bigger than it is. My point with this in particular: I disagree that sheltering kids from wearing their own clothes is going to be a fix for bullying. It's putting a bandaid on a broken finger and not taking the right actions whatsoever.

Many kids learning about psychology is not evidence that school uniforms affect kids psychologically. Hilarious that you think it is tbh.

Still confused why you keep bringing the bullying argument up, I haven't mentioned bullying. Read my posts properly. :thumbs:

[JerseyWins]

Many kids learning about psychology is not evidence that school uniforms affect kids psychologically. Hilarious that you think it is tbh.

Still confused why you keep bringing the bullying argument up, I haven't mentioned bullying. Read my posts properly. :thumbs:
"Many kids do and will get psychologically affected if they don't feel comfortable in their own clothes btw." Erm that was supposed to be one sentence that wasn't connected to the sentence before. Had nothing to do with psychology classes. I hope I haven't contradicted myself again now.

That's yet another time you just have responded to one little part of my argument, and it just so happens I meant something else again.

Idk if you're trying to do this as a troll at this point. :joker: But I do legitimately think I worded that pretty poorly so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time lol.

School uniforms will have some psychological effect on some kids. :shrug: There's literally no way around that statement... like it might not be a common thing to you but it still happens and it should not be this hard to believe. :joker:

[Marsh.]

"Many kids do and will get psychologically affected if they don't feel comfortable in their own clothes btw." Erm that was supposed to be one sentence that wasn't connected to the sentence before. Had nothing to do with psychology classes. I hope I haven't contradicted myself again now.

That's yet another time you just have responded to one little part of my argument, and it just so happens I meant something else again.

Idk if you're trying to do this as a troll at this point. :joker: But I do legitimately think I worded that pretty poorly so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt this time lol.

School uniforms will have some psychological effect on some kids. :shrug: There's literally no way around that statement... like it might not be a common thing to you but it still happens and it should not be this hard to believe. :joker:

Yep, every post has been worded pretty poor tbh.

Stating "Some school uniforms will have some psychological effect" doesn't make it fact. Any evidence to back up this claim?

(Hmm, now I'm a troll. Yeah, keep digging).

[JerseyWins]

And you're being contradictory, silly and a bit thick.

(See, we can both make personal remarks).
You already said all of this a ton of times in your previous posts btw. Just because you keep stating it doesn't make it fact :hehe: You can't just misquote part of my sentence out of context and call it contradictory.

Yep, every post has been worded pretty poor tbh.

Stating "Some school uniforms will have some psychological effect" doesn't make it fact. Any evidence to back up this claim?

(Hmm, now I'm a troll. Yeah, keep digging).
I've already spent much more than the amount of time I'd like on this to be mostly ignored for false accusations of contradictions... I'm not going to look for article proof of this or quotes from kids to prove a point :joker:


Is anyone providing any evidence for their arguments that school uniforms: prevent bullying, saves time, creates a better learning environment, etc. etc. etc.

I can explain to you many examples again, just off the top of my head?

You need an article for facts that are already obvious? I don't see how you can't fathom that a kid could feel: uncomfortable with the type of uniform they're given (particularly something like a skirt for a girl if it's not a choice), restricted in their own creative style, being forced into constant repetition every morning, etc. all of which are psychological distractions in a young kid's mind. (some people like change, some people like expressing their own style in a wardrobe, etc. and it's their bodies not the school's) Some people start going crazy just from wearing the same color every day and things like that. There are weird little psychological things so many people have in the world... being forced to wear school uniforms can easily trigger one of these. And it's only little kids we're talking about here. It's also an easy reason for a troubled kid to become rebellious from it and then they're only worsening their education for something that is far from helping their education. A kid like that should be helped, not punished further for a policy that is quite pointless when it comes down to it.

Side note: You're telling me if a kid doesn't have the correct uniform they're going to be denied an education that day or punished in some way? That's ridiculous imho :joker: Discipline them in ways that matter for learning.

Again, I think that you still think just because I say psychological, it has to be this big proposition that means the child is going to have to get some therapy sessions as a result of the uniforms. It's how you're acting when I say the word psychological. Whatever psychological impact it might have on a kid is not as big of a deal as YOU'RE thinking. But it could be any or all of these minor psychological effects that a kid can have and it's not as non-existent in kids as you're pretending it to be.

If the uniforms aren't helping their education then I don't think they should have to wear them. Feel free to argue why they should have to wear them whenever you'd like..... ? :joker:

[JerseyWins]

Just because you don't think that way doesn't mean nobody does.

[Marsh.]

Just because you don't think that way doesn't mean nobody does.

It's not about thinking a certain way. You can't state your opinion is fact and not back it up.

[Marsh.]

Side note: You're telling me if a kid doesn't have the correct uniform they're going to be denied an education that day or punished in some way? That's ridiculous imho :joker: Discipline them in ways that matter for learning.

Erm, what?

[Marsh.]

I don't see how you can't fathom that a kid could feel: uncomfortable with the type of uniform they're given (particularly something like a skirt for a girl if it's not a choice), restricted in their own creative style, being forced into constant repetition every morning, etc. all of which are psychological distractions in a young kid's mind. (some people like change, some people like expressing their own style in a wardrobe, etc. and it's their bodies not the school's) Some people start going crazy just from wearing the same color every day and things like that. There are weird little psychological things so many people have in the world... being forced to wear school uniforms can easily trigger one of these.

Pretty big stretch to go from a girl feeling uncomfortable in a skirt to psychological distractions caused by "constant repetition every morning" it's a wonder these delicate flowers don't have psychotic breaks from sleeping in the same bed and brushing their teeth everyday.

The kind of person you describe needs medication, not new clothes.

[JerseyWins]

It's not about thinking a certain way. You can't state your opinion is fact and not back it up.
My opinions for anti-uniforms are opinions

The fact uniforms can affect a child psychologically is a fact, and then I give examples how constantly throughout this thread

Psychological:
of, affecting, or arising in the mind; related to the mental and emotional state of a person

Whether it's positive or negative, psychology is the whole basis of this

[Marsh.]

My opinions for anti-uniforms are opinions

The fact uniforms can affect a child psychologically is a fact, and then I give examples how constantly throughout this thread

Actual examples of things that have actually happened? If not, you can't state it proves your opinion to be fact.

[Marsh.]

Psychological:
of, affecting, or arising in the mind; related to the mental and emotional state of a person

Whether it's positive or negative, psychology is the whole basis of this

Dictionary definitions don't change anything.

We all know what psychology is.

[JerseyWins]

Pretty big stretch to go from a girl feeling uncomfortable in a skirt to psychological distractions caused by "constant repetition every morning" it's a wonder these delicate flowers don't have psychotic breaks from sleeping in the same bed and brushing their teeth everyday.

The kind of person you describe needs medication, not new clothes.
:joker: (that's a legitimate props to you laugh)

But I can't use contrasting bigger and smaller examples just to show how there's psychological effects involved in this? :laugh: There are so many different psychological states in the world. You seem to be of the imagination that there's only one, the types that would never be affected psychologically by a school uniform, as if that's everyone in the world.

And these are kids we're talking about, not an adult.

[JerseyWins]

Actual examples of things that have actually happened? If not, you can't state it proves your opinion to be fact.
Dictionary definitions don't change anything.

We all know what psychology is.
Refer to: Example A (girl wearing a skirt every day)
Refer to: Example B (kid being restricted creatively)
Refer to: Posts in this thread that have already been made by people saying they weren't/aren't comfortable with these things but may have accepted them with no choice.

And the fact that everyone is in a different psychological state. Some people have anxiety, other conditions, and so on. People CAN get psychologically affected by something as simple as a uniform. It's simple knowledge but whatevs :shrug:

[Marsh.]

:joker: (that's a legitimate props to you laugh)

But I can't use contrasting bigger and smaller examples just to show how there's psychological effects involved in this? :laugh: There are so many different psychological states in the world. You seem to be of the imagination that there's only one, the types that would never be affected psychologically by a school uniform, as if that's everyone in the world.

And these are kids we're talking about, not an adult.

How so?

You are the one talking about kids being "negatively psychologically affected by wearing a school uniform" then claim it is fact but offer no evidence to support it other than a dictionary definition.

Maybe look up the dictionary definition of the word "fact".

[Marsh.]

Refer to: Example A (girl wearing a skirt every day)
Refer to: Example B (kid being restricted creatively)
Refer to: Posts in this thread that have already been made by people saying they weren't/aren't comfortable with these things but may have accepted them with no choice.

And the fact that everyone is in a different psychological state. Some people have anxiety, other conditions, and so on. People CAN get psychologically affected by something as simple as a uniform. It's simple knowledge but whatevs :shrug:

An actual real-life example, you know to prove it. Not a hypothetical. I could give you an example of a uniform causing a kid to sprout wings and fly, that doesn't make it real nor factual.

Sorry, but backtracking and talking about "OOOH WELL, someone may suffer with anxiety and, ooh, maybe they're forced to wear a skirt that makes that anxiety worse" really doesn't help that argument. Anxiety can be affected by literally anything and everything in life. Does that mean "anxiety" is a reason to ban and change anything and everything? Does that mean anything that triggers that anxiety is actually to blame for the anxiety? No. That would be, hmmm, ridiculous.

You suggested a uniform can affect someone psychologically in a negative way, not that a uniform can be the trigger (of which ANYTHING can be the trigger) of an already existing psychological disorder. That's a completely different point.

[JerseyWins]

How so?

You are the one talking about kids being "negatively psychologically affected by wearing a school uniform" then claim it is fact but offer no evidence to support it other than a dictionary definition.

Maybe look up the dictionary definition of the word "fact".
I was honestly just thinking this. I truly feel (know) it's a fact from what I've learned and heard about but since I don't have hard proof evidence with me you're kinda right in that regard that I shouldn't call it a fact anyway. I could say it's my opinion if that would go back to debating the actual points at hand? :joker:

What are you looking for? An example of a kid doing something drastic as a result of uniforms? Because in most cases it doesn't get that extreme over a uniform so it's kinda hard to find documented proof of examples. I always said this is not something likely to become extreme... I just don't think it's worth it to have uniforms for the potential downside there and the fact it doesn't actually help students learn.

Finally, anxiety is an example to show you that people react psychologically different to different things. Anxiety and further conditions are higher up the scale from a psychological standpoint. I feel like you didn't understand that not everyone is at an apex psychological state and I'm still not sure :laugh:

Therefore, if not everyone is at an apex psychological state, there can be psychological triggers (I wasn't saying just people with anxiety/depression or conditions like that when I say triggers) from being forced into the same uniform every day that they may REALLY not like or REALLY be uncomfortable with. That's my OPINION :laugh:

Like is it that complex? :joker: I don't think so.

"An actual real-life example, you know to prove it. Not a hypothetical. I could give you an example of a uniform causing a kid to sprout wings and fly, that doesn't make it real nor factual."
People in this thread have confirmed the basis of my examples/hypotheticals THEMSELVES and I have provided the psychological theory for the rest... I'm not making examples and hypotheticals out of thin air.

And way to go with yet another major exaggeration with the last part.

[JerseyWins]

Also, I know your focus is debating against my own points rather than making your own for the opposing side, which is a fair way to debate don't get me wrong... but it's a bit easy to demand evidence for one side of the argument while not even adding your own points, let alone proof of your own for the other side?

How do I even know that with your points here, you're not "digging" a hole for the opposite side of why we SHOULD have uniforms --- if apparently it's ludicrous that we shouldn't for these reasons.

[Marsh.]

What are you looking for? An example of a kid doing something drastic as a result of uniforms? Because in most cases it doesn't get that extreme over a uniform so it's kinda hard to find documented proof of examples. I always said this is not something likely to become extreme... I just don't think it's worth it to have uniforms for the potential downside there and the fact it doesn't actually help students learn.

Finally, anxiety is an example to show you that people react psychologically different to different things. Anxiety and further conditions are higher up the scale from a psychological standpoint. I feel like you didn't understand that not everyone is at an apex psychological state and I'm still not sure :laugh:

Therefore, if not everyone is at an apex psychological state, there can be psychological triggers (I wasn't saying just people with anxiety/depression or conditions like that when I say triggers) from being forced into the same uniform every day that they may REALLY not like or REALLY be uncomfortable with. That's my OPINION :laugh:

Like is it that complex? :joker: I don't think so.

"An actual real-life example, you know to prove it. Not a hypothetical. I could give you an example of a uniform causing a kid to sprout wings and fly, that doesn't make it real nor factual."
People in this thread have confirmed the basis of my examples/hypotheticals THEMSELVES and I have provided the psychological theory for the rest... I'm not making examples and hypotheticals out of thin air.

And way to go with yet another major exaggeration with the last part.

First of all, I'M not looking for anything. You are the one making the claims and it's down to you to back them up.

Yes, people react differently to anything in life. Just as ANYTHING can be a trigger to someone suffering with anxiety or any other mental illness.

That doesn't support your stance that is against uniforms as they "could form part of a trigger for an already ill person" as ANYTHING can form a trigger for them, and not all of them will be at all bothered by a uniform. There is no DIRECT correlation for it to be used as a reason to not have school uniforms.

Is it that complex? Well actually yes, which is why your argument doesn't work.

But, again, uniforms are the norm over here. You're from America aren't you? I imagine the norm is the opposite.

[Marsh.]

Also, I know your focus is debating against my own points rather than making your own for the opposing side, which is a fair way to debate don't get me wrong... but it's a bit easy to demand evidence for one side of the argument while not even adding your own points, let alone proof of your own for the other side?

How do I even know that with your points here, you're not "digging" a hole for the opposite side of why we SHOULD have uniforms --- if apparently it's ludicrous that we shouldn't for these reasons.

I've already given my own comment on what I think of uniforms. It's your opinion that we are discussing and you have struggled to expand on.

What's a bit easy? That you have made some statements that don't add up? I'm not using this as an argument FOR uniforms, just pointing out that it doesn't work as an argument not to have them.

You could call for anything to be banned on the "it might trigger someones anxieties".

You want proof of something? Ask me! All you've done is ask me about bullying... a point I haven't made.

But then maybe you'd feel more comfortable wall messaging another forum member about it?

Have a good day.

[AnnieK]

I can't believe this has got so deep.

Uniforms do as the name suggests, provide uniformity to kids at school. It also provides them with a "school identity". Jersey - I'm not sure what its like where you are in the States but where I am right now within a 3 mile radius we have 3 high schools, the uniform also helps to distinguish which school they are from for a variety of reasons including identifying truancy (although they are more likely not to be in uniform), being able to identify any safeguarding issues (if they are out of school when they should be in etc), any kids causing trouble can be reported to schools etc etc.

Kids here are used to wearing uniforms - until I read this thread, I didn't think anyone thought it was a big issue. Kids in the UK, when they get to High School pretty much accept there is a uniform, I can't see it changing and the nightmare that "non-uniform" days used to cause when I was at school made me dread them :laugh:

[Kazanne]

I think its a good thing, particularly for parents, getting kids out to school in the morning can be hard enough, add into the mix ' what am I wearing' and it becomes more of a drudge

It prepares students for life outside school, as in most work places there is a uniform of some description

Also saves money as wearing the same clothes to school each day would not be acceptable to some kids

:clap1: very sensible post Cherie,go to the top of the class.

[Marsh.]

I can't believe this has got so deep.

Uniforms do as the name suggests, provide uniformity to kids at school. It also provides them with a "school identity". Jersey - I'm not sure what its like where you are in the States but where I am right now within a 3 mile radius we have 3 high schools, the uniform also helps to distinguish which school they are from for a variety of reasons including identifying truancy (although they are more likely not to be in uniform), being able to identify any safeguarding issues (if they are out of school when they should be in etc), any kids causing trouble can be reported to schools etc etc.

Kids here are used to wearing uniforms - until I read this thread, I didn't think anyone thought it was a big issue. Kids in the UK, when they get to High School pretty much accept there is a uniform, I can't see it changing and the nightmare that "non-uniform" days used to cause when I was at school made me dread them :laugh:

Completely agree.

[Shaun]

Depends on the price of them and how much parents are expected to fork out for it, I suppose.

I think they're fine (if they're nice, anyway :laugh: we were lucky in that regard) until the age of 16, college students and sixth-formers should be able to wear whatever they want.

[Ant.]

I can't believe this has got so deep.

Uniforms do as the name suggests, provide uniformity to kids at school. It also provides them with a "school identity". Jersey - I'm not sure what its like where you are in the States but where I am right now within a 3 mile radius we have 3 high schools, the uniform also helps to distinguish which school they are from for a variety of reasons including identifying truancy (although they are more likely not to be in uniform), being able to identify any safeguarding issues (if they are out of school when they should be in etc), any kids causing trouble can be reported to schools etc etc.

Kids here are used to wearing uniforms - until I read this thread, I didn't think anyone thought it was a big issue. Kids in the UK, when they get to High School pretty much accept there is a uniform, I can't see it changing and the nightmare that "non-uniform" days used to cause when I was at school made me dread them :laugh:

:clap1:

[JerseyWins]

First of all, I'M not looking for anything. You are the one making the claims and it's down to you to back them up.

Yes, people react differently to anything in life. Just as ANYTHING can be a trigger to someone suffering with anxiety or any other mental illness.

That doesn't support your stance that is against uniforms as they "could form part of a trigger for an already ill person" as ANYTHING can form a trigger for them, and not all of them will be at all bothered by a uniform. There is no DIRECT correlation for it to be used as a reason to not have school uniforms.

Is it that complex? Well actually yes, which is why your argument doesn't work.

But, again, uniforms are the norm over here. You're from America aren't you? I imagine the norm is the opposite.
So you agree that uniforms can have a psychological effect that triggers a person’s anxiety/depression but not how it could do the same for someone in a normal psychological state as well? Everyone is not exactly the same psychologically sound. In your mind if someone finds any of the psychological problems with uniforms, it only means they have some kind of anxiety or condition that it’s triggering? Even so if it’s only a potential issue for someone with anxiety why have we implemented something that still CAN effect these kids negatively, for something that is not an actual benefit for the education of a child. Which I will argue why it’s not a benefit if given reasons, which there now actually are some presented :clap1:

And yes I believe freedom principles, for kids or otherwise, are a lot more common, widespread & adamant about around here in the US so it could just be differing mindsets within different countries. :laugh: (Not everyone is against uniforms here though but it’s a lot more common than I see in this thread and typically the uniforms are a private school thing, not public schools)



I can't believe this has got so deep.

Uniforms do as the name suggests, provide uniformity to kids at school. It also provides them with a "school identity". Jersey - I'm not sure what its like where you are in the States but where I am right now within a 3 mile radius we have 3 high schools, the uniform also helps to distinguish which school they are from for a variety of reasons including identifying truancy (although they are more likely not to be in uniform), being able to identify any safeguarding issues (if they are out of school when they should be in etc), any kids causing trouble can be reported to schools etc etc.

Kids here are used to wearing uniforms - until I read this thread, I didn't think anyone thought it was a big issue. Kids in the UK, when they get to High School pretty much accept there is a uniform, I can't see it changing and the nightmare that "non-uniform" days used to cause when I was at school made me dread them :laugh:
Most of these potential benefits come after school, where they would be able to dress freely, adjust their uniforms (where it could not be recognizable), put a coat over, etc.
There are also security measures to prevent kids from leaving schools, including usually at least one cop by one of the exits (not every school but more & more safety measures are taken here especially with shootings), cameras, and traffic workers/flaggers which would raise a red flag if any kid is away during school hours

As for identity, it gives identity for the school but not individual students, they all start to blend in more and laziness in identifying which students actually belong to the school may develop because you’re just looking for the uniforms. An intruder can easily blend in with the group just by knowing the uniform policy for the school and teachers & supervisors are always keyed in on the uniforms, not the faces and identities that belong to the school.

Re: Cherie’s post (I assume Kaz quoted it from pages back as I can’t find the post to quote it :laugh:)

- Easier/quicker in the morning... what happens when part of the uniform is misplaced in the morning? Uniform(s) being prepared for the wash accidentally forgotten about? Hell, these uniforms in plenty cases require more articles of clothing than the typical wardrobe. Is it really saving much difference-making time overall and is there not also a downside that loses time?
- Students learn about what formal dressing is in school and when it should be used. They don’t need to be forced into what to wear as kids in school in order to learn that. :shrug: There is no directly positive form of disciplining with full wardrobe guidelines as there would be for punishment for misbehaving, etc. I believe in disciplining in ways that improve a person. I learned about correct formal dressing quite easily while having total freedom as a kid in school (of course with dress code boundaries, which is normal and more along the lines of conduct that is actually used in businesses for adults)
- It does seem to save money for parents in most cases, a bit of a benefit for them which I just about fully agree there (not all cases but it’s a fair point) and said myself as well

Again, being from America it may be a difference of opinion here but to me and many Americans’ beliefs, there should be some kind of very quality, progressive benefit to limit one’s freedom in ANY way, as major or minor as it is. Does it actually improve a student’s learning, atmosphere, etc.? When you look more carefully at uniforms’ supposed “benefits” I don’t believe it does.

[JerseyWins]

[I spent way, way, way too much time of my lunch break on that :laugh:] I didn’t bother proof-reading at all so hope it even structurally makes sense.

[Elliot]

Shocked so many people are so strongly for them. there were even a huge amount of teachers at my school that hated the uniform system. it was just something we all did even though we thought it was stupid....

[Ant.]

Okay I know this is serious news and debates but surely the advantages on non-uniform is "a child might like to wear what they like" and that's that? Is it THAT psychologically deep?

[Matthew.]

[I spent way, way, way too much time of my lunch break on that :laugh:] I didn’t bother proof-reading at all so hope it even structurally makes sense.

I was thinking while reading it, how long did this take to type up :laugh:

[Tony Montana]

[I spent way, way, way too much time of my lunch break on that :laugh:] I didn’t bother proof-reading at all so hope it even structurally makes sense.

Silly you, wasting your precious lunch break typing this up. You should've waited till you got home.

[Jason.]

So you agree that uniforms can have a psychological effect that triggers a person’s anxiety/depression but not how it could do the same for someone in a normal psychological state as well? Everyone is not exactly the same psychologically sound. In your mind if someone finds any of the psychological problems with uniforms, it only means they have some kind of anxiety or condition that it’s triggering? Even so if it’s only a potential issue for someone with anxiety why have we implemented something that still CAN effect these kids negatively, for something that is not an actual benefit for the education of a child. Which I will argue why it’s not a benefit if given reasons, which there now actually are some presented :clap1:

And yes I believe freedom principles, for kids or otherwise, are a lot more common, widespread & adamant about around here in the US so it could just be differing mindsets within different countries. :laugh: (Not everyone is against uniforms here though but it’s a lot more common than I see in this thread and typically the uniforms are a private school thing, not public schools)




Most of these potential benefits come after school, where they would be able to dress freely, adjust their uniforms (where it could not be recognizable), put a coat over, etc.
There are also security measures to prevent kids from leaving schools, including usually at least one cop by one of the exits (not every school but more & more safety measures are taken here especially with shootings), cameras, and traffic workers/flaggers which would raise a red flag if any kid is away during school hours

As for identity, it gives identity for the school but not individual students, they all start to blend in more and laziness in identifying which students actually belong to the school may develop because you’re just looking for the uniforms. An intruder can easily blend in with the group just by knowing the uniform policy for the school and teachers & supervisors are always keyed in on the uniforms, not the faces and identities that belong to the school.

Re: Cherie’s post (I assume Kaz quoted it from pages back as I can’t find the post to quote it :laugh:)

- Easier/quicker in the morning... what happens when part of the uniform is misplaced in the morning? Uniform(s) being prepared for the wash accidentally forgotten about? Hell, these uniforms in plenty cases require more articles of clothing than the typical wardrobe. Is it really saving much difference-making time overall and is there not also a downside that loses time?
- Students learn about what formal dressing is in school and when it should be used. They don’t need to be forced into what to wear as kids in school in order to learn that. :shrug: There is no directly positive form of disciplining with full wardrobe guidelines as there would be for punishment for misbehaving, etc. I believe in disciplining in ways that improve a person. I learned about correct formal dressing quite easily while having total freedom as a kid in school (of course with dress code boundaries, which is normal and more along the lines of conduct that is actually used in businesses for adults)
- It does seem to save money for parents in most cases, a bit of a benefit for them which I just about fully agree there (not all cases but it’s a fair point) and said myself as well

Again, being from America it may be a difference of opinion here but to me and many Americans’ beliefs, there should be some kind of very quality, progressive benefit to limit one’s freedom in ANY way, as major or minor as it is. Does it actually improve a student’s learning, atmosphere, etc.? When you look more carefully at uniforms’ supposed “benefits” I don’t believe it does.

http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m9c4yzLMb41qhh6xjo3_r1_250.gif

[JerseyWins]

Silly you, wasting your precious lunch break typing this up. You should've waited till you got home.
Once I read it I don’t have patience to make my counter-arguments later

I’m on mobile too, typed like wildfire to get all the words out :joker: I’ll see if there’s more to debate later :wavey: but it seems pretty much a moot point either way, just what you believe does or doesn’t work

[Twosugars]

Bloody Yanks with their libertarian agenda :fist: :p

[Elliot]

Okay I know this is serious news and debates but surely the advantages on non-uniform is "a child might like to wear what they like" and that's that? Is it THAT psychologically deep?

The few advantages to uniform are also not that deep..... the best one I’ve heard is that it stops bullying because some kids have designer clothes and others have second hand or w/e but there were kids who got bullied for having second hand uniform or scruffy uniform because their parents don’t care so like :shrug:

[Elliot]

Me and a friend also once got threatened on the way home from school for wearing a uniform of a certain school that had a certain reputation or w/e, and in year 10 we were all banned from going to the towns mcdonalds because a few kids caused a scene lololol guess trying to enforce collectivism and destroying any sense if individuality instead of just trying to, ykno, install good values really paying off lol

And I think with certain schools you can tell they only care about how they look and this is further enforced through uniform. Like they only make an effort ofsted days and spend more time teaching you how to pass an exam and giving you past papers then teaching you the syllabus properly so they can fill certain quotas and get better budgets.. this ends up pissing a lot of teachers off too because they get no freedom and are basically told to only focus on exam prep and homework instead of creating lessons. More indulgent with how their school looks rather than whether they make well rounded children and adults that’ll do well in life

[Ant.]

The few advantages to uniform are also not that deep..... the best one I’ve heard is that it stops bullying because some kids have designer clothes and others have second hand or w/e but there were kids who got bullied for having second hand uniform or scruffy uniform because their parents don’t care so like :shrug:

you're right, they're not. But people (and by people I mean someone who's name rhymes with PercyGins) are acting as if a uniform represses a child's psychological development :unsure:

[AnnieK]

So you agree that uniforms can have a psychological effect that triggers a person’s anxiety/depression but not how it could do the same for someone in a normal psychological state as well? Everyone is not exactly the same psychologically sound. In your mind if someone finds any of the psychological problems with uniforms, it only means they have some kind of anxiety or condition that it’s triggering? Even so if it’s only a potential issue for someone with anxiety why have we implemented something that still CAN effect these kids negatively, for something that is not an actual benefit for the education of a child. Which I will argue why it’s not a benefit if given reasons, which there now actually are some presented :clap1:

And yes I believe freedom principles, for kids or otherwise, are a lot more common, widespread & adamant about around here in the US so it could just be differing mindsets within different countries. :laugh: (Not everyone is against uniforms here though but it’s a lot more common than I see in this thread and typically the uniforms are a private school thing, not public schools)




Most of these potential benefits come after school, where they would be able to dress freely, adjust their uniforms (where it could not be recognizable), put a coat over, etc.
There are also security measures to prevent kids from leaving schools, including usually at least one cop by one of the exits (not every school but more & more safety measures are taken here especially with shootings), cameras, and traffic workers/flaggers which would raise a red flag if any kid is away during school hours

As for identity, it gives identity for the school but not individual students, they all start to blend in more and laziness in identifying which students actually belong to the school may develop because you’re just looking for the uniforms. An intruder can easily blend in with the group just by knowing the uniform policy for the school and teachers & supervisors are always keyed in on the uniforms, not the faces and identities that belong to the school.

Re: Cherie’s post (I assume Kaz quoted it from pages back as I can’t find the post to quote it :laugh:)

- Easier/quicker in the morning... what happens when part of the uniform is misplaced in the morning? Uniform(s) being prepared for the wash accidentally forgotten about? Hell, these uniforms in plenty cases require more articles of clothing than the typical wardrobe. Is it really saving much difference-making time overall and is there not also a downside that loses time?
- Students learn about what formal dressing is in school and when it should be used. They don’t need to be forced into what to wear as kids in school in order to learn that. :shrug: There is no directly positive form of disciplining with full wardrobe guidelines as there would be for punishment for misbehaving, etc. I believe in disciplining in ways that improve a person. I learned about correct formal dressing quite easily while having total freedom as a kid in school (of course with dress code boundaries, which is normal and more along the lines of conduct that is actually used in businesses for adults)
- It does seem to save money for parents in most cases, a bit of a benefit for them which I just about fully agree there (not all cases but it’s a fair point) and said myself as well

Again, being from America it may be a difference of opinion here but to me and many Americans’ beliefs, there should be some kind of very quality, progressive benefit to limit one’s freedom in ANY way, as major or minor as it is. Does it actually improve a student’s learning, atmosphere, etc.? When you look more carefully at uniforms’ supposed “benefits” I don’t believe it does.

We don't have enough cops here to actually stop criminals, let alone stop a bunch of kids leaving a school :laugh:

I understand a lot of what you're saying but I think in the main its more of a America / UK thing. You guys don't have uniforms, we do. Personally, I think they're a good thing I never resented wearing a uniform, its easier for me to sort my son's uniform out over a weekend, he knows what he has to wear, its all washed and ready to go on a monday with 5 clean shirts etc so he doesn't have to think when he gets up and I don't have to worry

[rusticgal]

I'm for them. It'd reduce the risk of poor kids being ridiculed for cheap trainers and no designer labels. It gives everyone a kind of equality.



Absolutely agree. It puts everyone on the same level.

[rusticgal]

I think its a good thing, particularly for parents, getting kids out to school in the morning can be hard enough, add into the mix ' what am I wearing' and it becomes more of a drudge

It prepares students for life outside school, as in most work places there is a uniform of some description

Also saves money as wearing the same clothes to school each day would not be acceptable to some kids

Exactly...I wear a uniform for work..as much as I dislike it at least I don’t have to think about what to wear.
On another note..when my boys got home from school they always changed into their own clothes to go out to play...I couldn’t understand why children were out playing in their uniform..but then each to their own :shrug:

[Marsh.]

So you agree that uniforms can have a psychological effect that triggers a person’s anxiety/depression but not how it could do the same for someone in a normal psychological state as well?

I agreed it could do both. But I also said, anything could.

Or are we going to shield kids, wrap them up in cotton wool, say yes to everything they want to do, not allow them to do something that might initially be uncomfortable just on the off chance they're psychologically "triggered"?

I know Americans have the stereotype of popping off to the shrink's office at the slightest thing, but IMO that would be ridiculous.

Everyone is not exactly the same psychologically sound. In your mind if someone finds any of the psychological problems with uniforms, it only means they have some kind of anxiety or condition that it’s triggering? Even so if it’s only a potential issue for someone with anxiety why have we implemented something that still CAN effect these kids negatively.

Are they not? Thanks for the lesson, I didn't know that. :facepalm:

It's a wonder kids leave home with all these ifs and buts. :worry: The world is a scary place.

And yes I believe freedom principles, for kids or otherwise, are a lot more common, widespread & adamant about around here in the US so it could just be differing mindsets within different countries. :laugh: (Not everyone is against uniforms here though but it’s a lot more common than I see in this thread and typically the uniforms are a private school thing, not public schools)

So, now it's about freedom rights? :joker:

Again, how will they cope in the actual real world where everybody else doesn't pander to their wants, especially in time that is not their own personal time?

That's all it is, pandering. You can use "possible, if, maybe, psychological effects" as an excuse all you want. But, again, that could apply to anything and is not such a direct link that it's a valid argument against uniforms.

They could, possibly, maybe have ill psychological effects from any mundane aspect of life. :laugh:

An intruder can easily blend in with the group just by knowing the uniform policy for the school and teachers & supervisors are always keyed in on the uniforms, not the faces and identities that belong to the school.

Erm, no, no they're not. :joker:

But is this supposed to be against uniforms? Because this example you use is actually worse and more dangerous with kids wearing anything they choose, something different everyday. An intruder just has to walk in if your example is true, wearing anything they want. :shrug:


Re: Cherie’s post (I assume Kaz quoted it from pages back as I can’t find the post to quote it :laugh:)

- Easier/quicker in the morning... what happens when part of the uniform is misplaced in the morning? Uniform(s) being prepared for the wash accidentally forgotten about? Hell, these uniforms in plenty cases require more articles of clothing than the typical wardrobe. Is it really saving much difference-making time overall and is there not also a downside that loses time?

That could literally apply to anything.
If someone is so unorganised they've misplaced clothing, or forgot to wash it then they will do that no matter what the clothes are.

Again, being from America it may be a difference of opinion here but to me and many Americans’ beliefs, there should be some kind of very quality, progressive benefit to limit one’s freedom in ANY way, as major or minor as it is. Does it actually improve a student’s learning, atmosphere, etc.? When you look more carefully at uniforms’ supposed “benefits” I don’t believe it does.

Well, with that ridiculous mindset forcing children to attend school at all is limiting their freedom. But that's why they're kids. They don't have 100% autonomy on 100% of their lives. They have parents, guardians who are responsible for them until they come of age for a reason.

[JerseyWins]

“So, now it’s about freedom rights? :joker:” Look at one of my first one or two posts in this thread, yes that’s kind of what it’s about lol.

“Oooh but anxiety can be triggered in many ways, but that doesn’t mean uniforms have a direct correlation. Kids can’t be wrapped up into a ball their whole life!” Yada yada

On the grand scheme, uniforms aren’t a stepping stone for a child, they’re not a learning enhancement, none of that... so on the grounds of being free why shouldn’t they choose their outfits for school? It doesn’t mean they’re spoiled or something if they don’t like it.

And what’s your point exactly? A lot of things can have an effect on a kid’s anxiety, a lot of things can psychologically affect someone in a negative way, yeah duh. Why were you denying uniforms can possibly do this until now? You tell me rules or guidelines implemented in schools that might trigger anxiety or depression... I’ll answer if I think it should actually be necessary in schools to improve the students’ education and well-being or if it’s more inclined to being a possible detriment that isn’t worth it! Pretty sure something that triggers anxiety etc. is typically looked into and potentially changed no matter how minor it is, or how ridiculous you might take it to be. :joker: But we’re talking about rules/policies in schools here not anything else. Are uniforms flat-out necessary? No. So if it’s simply possible to cause negative psychological effects, that is something to consider if it’s worth it if you ask me.

Your sarcastic exaggerating post leads me to believe you think I would be against say, school group projects, because it’s something that can effect or trigger these anxieties/conditions. No, because that is actually beneficial to the educational system and a student’s learning & communication skills, ie growing as a student and person. Pretty fundamental and necessary in life.

[JerseyWins]

The few advantages to uniform are also not that deep..... the best one I’ve heard is that it stops bullying because some kids have designer clothes and others have second hand or w/e but there were kids who got bullied for having second hand uniform or scruffy uniform because their parents don’t care so like :shrug:

Me and a friend also once got threatened on the way home from school for wearing a uniform of a certain school that had a certain reputation or w/e, and in year 10 we were all banned from going to the towns mcdonalds because a few kids caused a scene lololol guess trying to enforce collectivism and destroying any sense if individuality instead of just trying to, ykno, install good values really paying off lol

And I think with certain schools you can tell they only care about how they look and this is further enforced through uniform. Like they only make an effort ofsted days and spend more time teaching you how to pass an exam and giving you past papers then teaching you the syllabus properly so they can fill certain quotas and get better budgets.. this ends up pissing a lot of teachers off too because they get no freedom and are basically told to only focus on exam prep and homework instead of creating lessons. More indulgent with how their school looks rather than whether they make well rounded children and adults that’ll do well in life
Very good posts :clap1:

[Ant.]

Me and a friend also once got threatened on the way home from school for wearing a uniform of a certain school that had a certain reputation or w/e, and in year 10 we were all banned from going to the towns mcdonalds because a few kids caused a scene lololol guess trying to enforce collectivism and destroying any sense if individuality instead of just trying to, ykno, install good values really paying off lol

And I think with certain schools you can tell they only care about how they look and this is further enforced through uniform. Like they only make an effort ofsted days and spend more time teaching you how to pass an exam and giving you past papers then teaching you the syllabus properly so they can fill certain quotas and get better budgets.. this ends up pissing a lot of teachers off too because they get no freedom and are basically told to only focus on exam prep and homework instead of creating lessons. More indulgent with how their school looks rather than whether they make well rounded children and adults that’ll do well in life

okay I was sorta understanding what you were saying but 'destroying any sense of individuality' seems really extreme like... I don't feel unique walking around in jeans and a shirt rather than in a uniform. A lot of people feel that way but meh I guess it depends on the person

Well yeah, of course they want to look good :laugh: It'd be ideal if they could keep it up 24/7 but they can't. Uniform is just a simple rule and while it can be overly strict, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. That can be controlled, whereas the pressures teacher's face can't always. Do you have a job? If you do, do you make a conscious effort to be focused and 'better' than you are when you're not around them? I certainly do. It's no different for teachers


I don't really understand your point? The whole point of school is to pass the exams. The advice always is do well in your exams rather than learning for the hell of it. And past papers are probably the best resource for revision for most people because it identifies weak areas and also practice exam technique which is what will get you the grades. That applies to most, if not 'all' schools. In the end, learning cell functions is fine and dandy, but would they always explicitly state "name this organelle" and "where does aerobic respiration occur in cells?". They'd phrase it in questions which make you think about what it's asking you for and whatever you get wrong you can learn there and then - within ten minutes you can cover exam technique, what you do and don't know, and how to improve on a topic, whereas going through it again in a lesson would only waste time. I'm sincerely hoping I'm not missing what point you're trying to make, I'm just a tad confused? Are you suggesting teachers don't teach anymore and make you teach yourself? If that's the case this part was completely irrelevant but yeah. idk what you mean

[Ant.]

https://ie-today.co.uk/Blog/the-impact-of-school-uniforms-on-mental-health/

interesting read

[Marsh.]

“So, now it’s about freedom rights? :joker:” Look at one of my first one or two posts in this thread, yes that’s kind of what it’s about lol.

“Oooh but anxiety can be triggered in many ways, but that doesn’t mean uniforms have a direct correlation. Kids can’t be wrapped up into a ball their whole life!” Yada yada

On the grand scheme, uniforms aren’t a stepping stone for a child, they’re not a learning enhancement, none of that... so on the grounds of being free why shouldn’t they choose their outfits for school? It doesn’t mean they’re spoiled or something if they don’t like it.

And what’s your point exactly? A lot of things can have an effect on a kid’s anxiety, a lot of things can psychologically affect someone in a negative way, yeah duh. Why were you denying uniforms can possibly do this until now? You tell me rules or guidelines implemented in schools that might trigger anxiety or depression... I’ll answer if I think it should actually be necessary in schools to improve the students’ education and well-being or if it’s more inclined to being a possible detriment that isn’t worth it! Pretty sure something that triggers anxiety etc. is typically looked into and potentially changed no matter how minor it is, or how ridiculous you might take it to be. :joker: But we’re talking about rules/policies in schools here not anything else. Are uniforms flat-out necessary? No. So if it’s simply possible to cause negative psychological effects, that is something to consider if it’s worth it if you ask me.

Your sarcastic exaggerating post leads me to believe you think I would be against say, school group projects, because it’s something that can effect or trigger these anxieties/conditions. No, because that is actually beneficial to the educational system and a student’s learning & communication skills, ie growing as a student and person. Pretty fundamental and necessary in life.

Yada yada is all you have to say to a valid counter-point?

I haven't denied uniforms do or don't do anything. I've denied that uniforms (out of every other thing in life) have been proven to have such an effect on a lot of students' development and lives that it's a valid argument to put forth against them. I've been asking you to explain a wild and ridiculous comment you insisted was "fact" and after all this time continue to fail to do so.

I haven't exaggerated anything. That's what's so funny.

"Pretty fundamental and necessary in life" Yeah, like wearing jeans to school I guess. :thumbs:

If you're entire argument is predicated on "Can this thing possibly cause a negative reaction?" and "Is this thing necessary?" you'd be sat at home eating food inside a plastic bubble.

You tell me rules or guidelines implemented in schools that might trigger anxiety or depression... I’ll answer if I think it should actually be necessary in schools to improve the students’ education and well-being or if it’s more inclined to being a possible detriment that isn’t worth it! Pretty sure something that triggers anxiety etc. is typically looked into and potentially changed no matter how minor it is, or how ridiculous you might take it to be. :joker:

I don't really care, nor see the relevance in listing every schooling policy to see if you deem it necessary. The topic isn't "What Jersey deems necessary". But thank you.

You've also answered your own question. It hasn't been found to be so detrimental to the kids' mental wellbeing that it's been withdrawn. So that's not really supporting your argument.

But you clearly don't understand a word I'm saying, hence random comments like "An intruder can dress as a student and enter the building". So, it's all yours.

[Marsh.]

https://ie-today.co.uk/Blog/the-impact-of-school-uniforms-on-mental-health/

interesting read

Look how detrimental it is and unnecessary to their lives though!

A nice pair of jeans and a cute top will cure that!

[JerseyWins]

https://ie-today.co.uk/Blog/the-impact-of-school-uniforms-on-mental-health/

interesting read
"Back in 2007, in a study commissioned by the Schoolwear Association, researchers from Oxford Brookes University ran a series of focus groups with students aged 13–17 to uncover their perceptions around wearing a uniform. Feedback from the teenagers revealed that a consistent dress code meant they didn’t have to decide what to wear each day or worry about whether they would be bullied or criticised by their peers."

Until 12 years later some people decided to actually be progressive and teach students that it doesn't matter what other students think of them or what they have but to proudly express themselves whatever way they want, including from a fashion/clothing sense. We also learned that bullying still happens all the same for what their uniform looks like, what they look like, how they act etc. It's something you prevent with other, actually progressive, measures. Not slap a bandaid uniform on.

How psychological of that article as well btw. It's a shame it can't work the other way around for students that like having their own clothes, feel proud and/or gain confidence from their own sense of style, from feeling free to wear whatever type of clothes they'd like etc. They can't POSSIBLY feel trapped or uncomfortable or lose self-esteem from clothing they're forced to wear in unity? It's only psychological when it helps their self-esteem not when it hurts it apparently! I've been saying it's a psychological thing to consider on both ends and you and Marsh just contradicted yourselves entirely by agreeing with an article that is heavily an anti-bullying, pro-psychological uniforms argument. Multiple people have already established these concepts don't work as much as schools and establishments like to make it seem. They're beneficial to schools' image 100% and schools will love to make it seem very helpful. The article literally said the uniforms improve students' concentration like it's supposed to be believable, like they're less concentrated when they wear the latest designer label clothing or too focused on the next guy's latest designer label clothing lol.

Yada yada is all you have to say to a valid counter-point?

I haven't denied uniforms do or don't do anything. I've denied that uniforms (out of every other thing in life) have been proven to have such an effect on a lot of students' development and lives that it's a valid argument to put forth against them. I've been asking you to explain a wild and ridiculous comment you insisted was "fact" and after all this time continue to fail to do so.

I haven't exaggerated anything. That's what's so funny.

"Pretty fundamental and necessary in life" Yeah, like wearing jeans to school I guess. :thumbs:

If you're entire argument is predicated on "Can this thing possibly cause a negative reaction?" and "Is this thing necessary?" you'd be sat at home eating food inside a plastic bubble.
You're right... I don't know what you are or aren't denying, what you do or don't think because you haven't taken a stance on literally anything and you're going in circles with wild exaggerations on one psychological effect compared to another as well as the "fact" I said "fact" when I agreed there and cleared it up that I should've said opinion in that situation.

But you took a stance on applauding an article that contradicts some of your points.. so there's that at least.

Also to your last point no, the vast majority of rules & policies that are given in schools are deemed pretty necessary in some kind of educational or psychological way. Right now, many still do think uniforms are a good psychological improvement for schools. I think that type of thinking is outdated personally and I'm trying to argue why it is but not doing a very good job apparently. :laugh: And whatever isn't deemed necessary can always be discussed if we shouldn't have it in place...

I don't really care, nor see the relevance in listing every schooling policy to see if you deem it necessary. The topic isn't "What Jersey deems necessary". But thank you.

You've also answered your own question. It hasn't been found to be so detrimental to the kids' mental wellbeing that it's been withdrawn. So that's not really supporting your argument.

But you clearly don't understand a word I'm saying, hence random comments like "An intruder can dress as a student and enter the building". So, it's all yours.
It's kind of important to the argument but ok. I'm saying I agree with school policies even if they have some kind of potential negative trigger on a student with anxiety or otherwise.... if there are actual benefits that over-cede any potential risks for having a troubled or not-fully-psychologically-sound student go down the wrong path with something you are forcing them to do unnecessarily. I never said you don't have to discipline students, that's why you're not understanding my points considering the examples you're giving. You think because I think uniforms are a pointless way to discipline students, then I'm saying no discipline should ever be given ffs. :joker: Your exaggerations are kind of a howl though. :laugh:

"It hasn't been found to be detrimental" It's not a policy in many schools all across America. That doesn't mean it shouldn't continue to be questioned whether it's truly necessary, and that it shouldn't be considered if the psychological problems & triggers it may cause are enough to consider over the positive ones some people believe. :shrug:


I prefer the free approach compared to a policy that can be as troublesome as it is helpful, as psychologically regressing as it is progressing, etc.

Again, at the end of the day I think it's opposing norms in different countries and it's going to be difficult to get to a conclusion here. You can go next, I may or may not continue after that, but quite frankly I'm very bored of this argument at this point and I don't think either of us is getting anywhere with it tbh.

[JerseyWins]

To you and Ant "peer pressure" psychology seems to mean a lot more than "self-identity" psychology. Which is such a backwards way of thinking and why people try to fix it by slapping a bandaid uniform on students instead. As if they can't freely dress, find their own identity and get past the peer pressure and worries on their own. :joker: (EDIT: with guidance of course)

And clothing is surely not the basis of self-identity, I know that, but it plays a part without a doubt in the same way people getting piercings and tattoos etc. does it for them.

[user104658]

its all washed and ready to go on a monday with 5 clean shirts etc so he doesn't have to think when he gets up and I don't have to worry

:omgno: organisation goals Annie... I'm lucky if I have enough ready to scrape by til Tuesday so that I can rewash their Monday stuff and hastily iron it at 8.20 on Wednesday morning :joker:.

I mean they literally each have 5+ uniforms somewhere, I'm sure they do, but I'm nowhere near proactive enough to have them ready over the weekend.

[Niamh.]

:omgno: organisation goals Annie... I'm lucky if I have enough ready to scrape by til Tuesday so that I can rewash their Monday stuff and hastily iron it at 8.20 on Wednesday morning :joker:.

I mean they literally each have 5+ uniforms somewhere, I'm sure they do, but I'm nowhere near proactive enough to have them ready over the weekend.

Mine have a school tracksuit and a uniform so 3 days uniform, 2 days tracksuit, it's a bit easier :laugh: although mine are 15 and 18 so they have to make sure that they're washed themselves now

I haven't read all of the toing and froing here on this thread but I never realised it was so serious :laugh: I've had a uniform conversation with my daughter before and she way prefers it, saves alot of wasted time and energy in the mornings :shrug:

[Elliot]

okay I was sorta understanding what you were saying but 'destroying any sense of individuality' seems really extreme like... I don't feel unique walking around in jeans and a shirt rather than in a uniform. A lot of people feel that way but meh I guess it depends on the person

Well yeah, of course they want to look good :laugh: It'd be ideal if they could keep it up 24/7 but they can't. Uniform is just a simple rule and while it can be overly strict, it isn't necessarily a bad thing. That can be controlled, whereas the pressures teacher's face can't always. Do you have a job? If you do, do you make a conscious effort to be focused and 'better' than you are when you're not around them? I certainly do. It's no different for teachers


I don't really understand your point? The whole point of school is to pass the exams. The advice always is do well in your exams rather than learning for the hell of it. And past papers are probably the best resource for revision for most people because it identifies weak areas and also practice exam technique which is what will get you the grades. That applies to most, if not 'all' schools. In the end, learning cell functions is fine and dandy, but would they always explicitly state "name this organelle" and "where does aerobic respiration occur in cells?". They'd phrase it in questions which make you think about what it's asking you for and whatever you get wrong you can learn there and then - within ten minutes you can cover exam technique, what you do and don't know, and how to improve on a topic, whereas going through it again in a lesson would only waste time. I'm sincerely hoping I'm not missing what point you're trying to make, I'm just a tad confused? Are you suggesting teachers don't teach anymore and make you teach yourself? If that's the case this part was completely irrelevant but yeah. idk what you mean

I was trying to relay the uniform issue to a wider problem with the education system that I have huge problems with. Didn’t wanna go too deep since debates here never go anywhere and usually just end in arguments and frustration but w/e

I think the education system in this country is awful. I think the philosophy behind the education system is abhorrent. I think the implementation of it is even worse. I think uniform plays into some of the major toxicity in the institutionalisation philosophy that plagues pretty much all public schools, and any ounce of benifit from uniforms is trivialised by the fact that they aren’t enforced in college and uni for some reason lol.

I can understand my point about lessons and exam prep not going over well, maybe you didn’t have similar experiences? The teaching at my school was awful and it ironically didn’t have much to do with the actual teachers. A lot of the teachers were being pressured by higher ups to skip units to start exam prep, continually give out and mark past papers and homework instead of plan lessons, ignore entire syllabuses because they ‘probably won’t be in this years exam’ . Less engaging with a lesson and more copying out of books over and over and doing hundreds of past papers, you know? I vented about this on another forum and a lot of people my age had similar experiences, some even worse cases of the school being really desperate for certain grade quotas. One apparently had the maths teacher who looked at the exam of that year like a week before they had to do it, and told the students what to study for that week knowing what will be in it lol, and nobody cared or complained because they all did really well.

I do think there are some good schools out there, but for the most part it just seems to me that the people that work at these places are more bothered about numbers than the well-being and education of the thousands of students who go there, and nobody with any power ever bothers questioning it because of the good grades and good ofsted meetings

[JerseyWins]

I’m back again :laugh: I totally forgot I didn’t finish replying to one of Marsh’s posts in a rush yesterday, which are actually pro-uniform arguments.

Erm, no, no they're not. :joker:

But is this supposed to be against uniforms? Because this example you use is actually worse and more dangerous with kids wearing anything they choose, something different everyday. An intruder just has to walk in if your example is true, wearing anything they want. :shrug:



That could literally apply to anything.
If someone is so unorganised they've misplaced clothing, or forgot to wash it then they will do that no matter what the clothes are.



Well, with that ridiculous mindset forcing children to attend school at all is limiting their freedom. But that's why they're kids. They don't have 100% autonomy on 100% of their lives. They have parents, guardians who are responsible for them until they come of age for a reason.
- The pro-uniforms point that was originally made was that it was a type of safety measure for students. They know which kids belong to which school, if there’s an intruder in the building, etc. etc. (I specifically brought up intruder but the original point was that exact type of reasoning)

My argument is that’s not true, as another kid, or potentially more dangerous intruder can blend right in if they simply know the uniform policy and match it. It’s not difficult to do. It’s a pro-uniforms point I disagree with actually being beneficial. Furthermore, if an intruder is actually spotted by someone in the hallway or on camera, which one is easier to find and identify? A unique face or a unique face AND wardrobe that they can warn supervisors/teachers/etc. about when they alarm a “code red” situation.


- It’s kinda easy to misplace one required item of clothing or be delayed on a planned wash schedule for something you have roughly 2 pairs of and no other choice or substitute. Typically a person in a regular situation would have other options to resolve being late for that reason. :shrug:

The argument for uniforms is that it saves time in the morning. Not true necessarily. Your “unorganized” argument kinda makes the initial pro-uniforms point null and void as well :joker: Any organized person will have their wardrobe nicely sorted or even decided on the night before so that they take very little time to get ready in the morning.


- You also made another ridiculous exaggeration at the end there “why have them go to school at all” ... I explained this in depth in my latest post on the last page though so won’t get into it again. Apparently the thought process for one idea has to mean that an extreme comparison has to be true. Lol, no there should be regard to contexts & common sense obviously.

[Marsh.]

A unique face or a unique face AND wardrobe that they can warn supervisors/teachers/etc. about when they alarm a “code red” situation.


- It’s kinda easy to misplace one required item of clothing or be delayed on a planned wash schedule for something you have roughly 2 pairs of and no other choice or substitute. Typically a person in a regular situation would have other options to resolve being late for that reason. :shrug:

The argument for uniforms is that it saves time in the morning. Not true necessarily. Your “unorganized” argument kinda makes the initial pro-uniforms point null and void as well :joker: Any organized person will have their wardrobe nicely sorted or even decided on the night before so that they take very little time to get ready in the morning.

A unique wardrobe?

Will the school shooter enter the building dressed in bright red and a hat saying "MURDERER"?

As for the unorganised person point, that isn't really valid for or against uniforms. An unorganised person is an unorganised person regardless.

[Marsh.]

I do think there are some good schools out there, but for the most part it just seems to me that the people that work at these places are more bothered about numbers than the well-being and education of the thousands of students who go there, and nobody with any power ever bothers questioning it because of the good grades and good ofsted meetings

Yep, a government thing. Most schools have gone academy now so have all kinds of pressures put on them that the last thing they have time to focus on now is education.

Schools are run like businesses nowadays. A real shame.

[Macie Lightfoot]

I had this tab open for a while but never responded to it bc busy week but in defense of Jersey (?!?!), this is DEFINITELY a cultural thing. As another American, the idea of wearing a uniform to school is such a foreign concept if you go to a public school. A lot of the pro-uniform arguments about how it takes so much time to pick out an outfit to wear and how uniforms reduce bullying don't really apply in the US. American schoolchildren have kinda outgrown traditional schoolyard bullying and it's mostly done as cyberbullying through Instagram and whatever other social media platforms there are now, and nobody really gives a **** what anybody wears whether it be labels (I don't think I knew what a label was when I was in high school tbh), athletic clothes, jeans, anything. I just don't see the purpose of school uniforms as an American who went through public school his whole life and never had to deal with uniforms :shrug:

[joeysteele]

I'm for them. It'd reduce the risk of poor kids being ridiculed for cheap trainers and no designer labels. It gives everyone a kind of equality.

This for me as to the merits of them too.

I loved however being in my school uniform

[Marsh.]

I had this tab open for a while but never responded to it bc busy week but in defense of Jersey (?!?!), this is DEFINITELY a cultural thing. As another American, the idea of wearing a uniform to school is such a foreign concept if you go to a public school. A lot of the pro-uniform arguments about how it takes so much time to pick out an outfit to wear and how uniforms reduce bullying don't really apply in the US. American schoolchildren have kinda outgrown traditional schoolyard bullying and it's mostly done as cyberbullying through Instagram and whatever other social media platforms there are now, and nobody really gives a **** what anybody wears whether it be labels (I don't think I knew what a label was when I was in high school tbh), athletic clothes, jeans, anything. I just don't see the purpose of school uniforms as an American who went through public school his whole life and never had to deal with uniforms :shrug:

Nobody's disputed that I don't think. Feelings towards uniforms will be dependent on if you grew up with it as a norm or not, I agree.

The point I addressed was the reason he used to explain how uniforms negatively impact students. Which I found baseless.

It's one thing saying "I don't like uniforms" or "I don't think we should have them" quite another to say "Uniforms shouldn't be the norm as they negatively impact on students" with nothing to back up the claim.