Hospital sorry after nurse calls transgender woman in Ann Summers outfit 'a man'

[Tony Montana]

A hospital has been forced to apologise after a nurse called a transgender woman dressed in an Ann Summers Mrs Claus outfit a man.
Chantelle Saunders, 34, said she was "very, very upset" by the remark from a nurse at Royal Devon and Exeter hospital.She claims the nurse said "er... it's a man" and replied with "erggh" after Chantelle told her she is actually transgender.
Chantelle, from Exeter, is transitioning from male to female and had visited the hospital on Christmas Eve last year in full make-up, wig and costume to spread some festive cheer.
In a letter the hospital told Chantelle that the nurse thought she was male because "you had a full beard and were dressed in male attire".
But bosses have now apologised and said they are keen to speak to Chantelle to see if they can "explore how we can resolve any remaining issues she has". Chantelle said she has never had a beard, even before she began her three year transition, and blasted the nurse's actions.
She said: "I was very, very upset. I'm a transgender woman - transitioning from male to female.
"I went to visit my friend in hospital on Christmas Eve on one of the RD&E ward.
"She was in having an operation and there was a nurse in the cubicle. I said 'Happy Christmas' and the nurse replied 'Er... it's a man'.
"I said 'No I'm a transgender woman' and she said 'errgh'.
"I complained at first to the NHS PALS (Patient Advice and Liaison Service) and I received a comment back from the assistant head of nursing who said they apologised for saying 'Happy Christmas Sir'.
"But I appealed and made another complaint about that because they didn't speak to me or speak to my two witnesses."Now I have had a letter back from the deputy chief executive/chief nurse which basically says that the nurse involved has no recollection of making the comment - but again they never spoke to my two witnesses."
The letter said: "All our staff undergo equality and diversity training as standard. Any form of discrimination is unacceptable to us as an organisation.
"If a patient is admitted we always enquire how they wish to be addressed (Mr, Mrs or by first name)'.
"The bit of the letter that has really upset me is this bit, it says 'However when a person is visited we are advised to address the person as they are seen.
"In your case I understand you had a full beard and were dressed in male attire."
Chantelle said if the hospital had contacted her witnesses they would all testify that she was dressed as a woman, as she has for the last three years since she began transitioning and taking female hormones.
She said: "I am always dressed as a woman. I had full make-up. I had my hair on. I am on female hormones and do not have a beard.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/hospital-sorry-after-nurse-calls-14252377

[bots]

i can understand confusion on a busy ward when someone is dressed up as Santa :shrug:

Yeah, it's unfortunate, but I think this is more of a publicity crusade more than anything else.

[chuff me dizzy]

I smell a rat here :creep: Why would the nurse say "Sir" ? Ive never had anyone in the same position call me "Madam " you say "Merry Christmas" no need for the title

[Lostie!]

She claims the nurse said "er... it's a man" and replied with "erggh" after Chantelle told her she is actually transgender

:skull:

[Livia]

Good that they take the time to make a grovelling apology to a transsexual woman, while elderly people are sitting in their own piss and not being given enough to eat or drink. Nice to see the NHS has it's ducks in a row when it comes to grovelling apologies and who gets them.

[chuff me dizzy]

Good that they take the time to make a grovelling apology to a transsexual woman, while elderly people are sitting in their own piss and not being given enough to eat or drink. Nice to see the NHS has it's ducks in a row when it comes to grovelling apologies and who gets them.

:clap1: The world has gone mad Livia, time the NHS got its priorities right !!

[Amy Jade]

The nurse was wrong for responding the way she did to be fair but is it really worth complaining about?

[user104658]

Good that they take the time to make a grovelling apology to a transsexual woman, while elderly people are sitting in their own piss and not being given enough to eat or drink. Nice to see the NHS has it's ducks in a row when it comes to grovelling apologies and who gets them.I mean I agree to an extent but surely it should be that care, compassion and apology is forthcoming to ALL... nit that "if the most deserving don't get one then NO ONE gets one".

[joeysteele]

Good that they take the time to make a grovelling apology to a transsexual woman, while elderly people are sitting in their own piss and not being given enough to eat or drink. Nice to see the NHS has it's ducks in a row when it comes to grovelling apologies and who gets them.

Very forcefully put.
I'm in full agreement

I was visiting a relative in Hospital a couple of weeks ago.

Another old person in the bay with them, said they needed the toilet.

The Nurse said, we only took you an hour ago, we are busy now, we'll take you in half an hour.
Staggering and unacceptable.

[Matthew.]

I was visiting a relative in Hospital a couple of weeks ago.

Another old person in the bay with them, said they needed the toilet.

The Nurse said, we only took you an hour ago, we are busy now, we'll take you in half an hour.
Staggering and unacceptable.

Are you serious :oh:

That’s disgraceful

[joeysteele]

Are you serious :oh:

That’s disgraceful

Deadly serious.
I and the person visiting with me have raised the issue which will likely get lip service only, it disregarded as we are not that person's next if kin or relative.

It is actually, although a minority of instances, terrifying what loved ones are treated like in some Hospitals by some staff.

I'm sorry but for me being overworked and understaffed doesn't cut it with me as an excuse for the removal of anyone's dignity.

[AnnieK]

Very forcefully put.
I'm in full agreement

I was visiting a relative in Hospital a couple of weeks ago.

Another old person in the bay with them, said they needed the toilet.

The Nurse said, we only took you an hour ago, we are busy now, we'll take you in half an hour.
Staggering and unacceptable.

I agree its unacceptable but the nurses could have been dispensing time critical meds, assisting other patients, the lady who said she needed the toilet could say that every 5 minutes....nurses are stretched to the limits due to budget cuts, there could have been.more pressing things.on the ward at that time, they cannot split themselves in half.

The day my mum was told she had terminal cancer and had weeks to live, bearing in mind at her admission to hospital, she thought she had pulled something in her back, when we left for the evening, she had a massive panic attack, the nurses sat with her to calm her breathing and did not leave her until she was calm. If another patient had needed the bathroom they would have had a judgement call to make....its not always that they are uncaring, sometimes they need to prioritise.

[joeysteele]

I agree its unacceptable but the nurses could have been dispensing time critical meds, assisting other patients, the lady who said she needed the toilet could say that every 5 minutes....nurses are stretched to the limits due to budget cuts, there could have been.more pressing things.on the ward at that time, they cannot split themselves in half.

The day my mum was told she had terminal cancer and had weeks to live, bearing in mind at her admission to hospital, she thought she had pulled something in her back, when we left for the evening, she had a massive panic attack, the nurses sat with her to calm her breathing and did not leave her until she was calm. If another patient had needed the bathroom they would have had a judgement call to make....its not always that they are uncaring, sometimes they need to prioritise.

We were there visiting just under an hour and that patient hadn't asked in all that time, until the instance I highlighted.

Furthermore, even had they offered a bedpan would have been more acceptable.

Livia was right.
Literally people are left lying in wet beds, which ends up being even more time consuming for staff to deal with.
Then they likely moan at said patient.

Would you like to think your Parent got treated like that in hospital.

[Marsh.]

I agree its unacceptable but the nurses could have been dispensing time critical meds, assisting other patients, the lady who said she needed the toilet could say that every 5 minutes....nurses are stretched to the limits due to budget cuts, there could have been.more pressing things.on the ward at that time, they cannot split themselves in half.

The day my mum was told she had terminal cancer and had weeks to live, bearing in mind at her admission to hospital, she thought she had pulled something in her back, when we left for the evening, she had a massive panic attack, the nurses sat with her to calm her breathing and did not leave her until she was calm. If another patient had needed the bathroom they would have had a judgement call to make....its not always that they are uncaring, sometimes they need to prioritise.

Yeah. This.

It's terrible, but not necessarily the staff themselves at fault. There should be more of them, but that's not on them.

[Ammi]

...misgendering ...(..in the context of this story and we can’t ever tell on the accuracy of media stories..)...is something which awareness should be being raised...it is something which is of extreme importance to the person going through their transformation...I do believe an apology was probably appropriate and that apology was made...and in giving that apology...?...it hasn’t stretched further the NHS service as it is at the moment...which is already very stretched with everyone or most people doing their very best...it isn’t a one thing or another situation for me though....an apology is completely in the control of a person/organisation to do...so when it’s required it should be done...other issues within the NHS and its struggles as mentioned in the thread are a lot more difficult to tackle...but yeah, I don’t see why one thing has any bearing on another....

[Cherie]

"I complained at first to the NHS PALS (Patient Advice and Liaison Service) and I received a comment back from the assistant head of nursing who said they apologised for saying 'Happy Christmas Sir'.
"But I appealed and made another complaint about that because they didn't speak to me or speak to my two witnesses."Now I have had a letter back from the deputy chief executive/chief nurse which basically says that the nurse involved has no recollection of making the comment - but again they never spoke to my two witnesses."


an apology had already been issued though, but this lady wanted to take further...I appreciate they might have been hurt, but I am not sure this warranted a meeting with everyone including witnesses, we all get hurt in life...we need to deal with it in an appropriate way

[Ammi]

...I guess there’s being hurt or upset in life and there’s making a stand for something you believe in, in life as well...and this was obviously something she felt she wanted or needed to pursue further ..which I also think is appropriate if that’s what she felt...for me I don’t feel that this in any way takes from other issues within the NHS...and it’s something that hopefully can be dealt with satisfactorily for everyone...some things sadly can’t be ‘fixed’....

[user104658]

...misgendering ...(..in the context of this story and we can’t ever tell on the accuracy of media stories..)...is something which awareness should be being raised...it is something which is of extreme importance to the person going through their transformation...I do believe an apology was probably appropriate and that apology was made...and in giving that apology...?...it hasn’t stretched further the NHS service as it is at the moment...which is already very stretched with everyone or most people doing their very best...it isn’t a one thing or another situation for me though....an apology is completely in the control of a person/organisation to do...so when it’s required it should be done...other issues within the NHS and its struggles as mentioned in the thread are a lot more difficult to tackle...but yeah, I don’t see why one thing has any bearing on another....

NO Ammi, if they take the time to apologise to this lady then they won't have time to apologise to all the elderly people they're neglecting!! Come on a bit of common sense.

[user104658]

"I complained at first to the NHS PALS (Patient Advice and Liaison Service) and I received a comment back from the assistant head of nursing who said they apologised for saying 'Happy Christmas Sir'.
"But I appealed and made another complaint about that because they didn't speak to me or speak to my two witnesses."Now I have had a letter back from the deputy chief executive/chief nurse which basically says that the nurse involved has no recollection of making the comment - but again they never spoke to my two witnesses."


an apology had already been issued though, but this lady wanted to take further...I appreciate they might have been hurt, but I am not sure this warranted a meeting with everyone including witnesses, we all get hurt in life...we need to deal with it in an appropriate way

To be fair, piecing it together, it sounds like the nurse may have been blatantly and openly transphobic and that was the complaint but when quizzed by her boss, she has (for obvious reasons) said that it was a mistake / misunderstanding and that she simply hadn't realised... and the apology will have been issued on those grounds. If the real issue was that she was CLEARLY aware that this individual was trans and was choosing to make comments such as pointedly calling her "SIR" and saying "urgh" / showing distaste... and other witnesses can attest to that... then I can understand why the reaction would be "Err this apology is BS and this is not what happened I want a real apology plz".

[Ammi]

To be fair, piecing it together, it sounds like the nurse may have been blatantly and openly transphobic and that was the complaint but when quizzed by her boss, she has (for obvious reasons) said that it was a mistake / misunderstanding and that she simply hadn't realised... and the apology will have been issued on those grounds. If the real issue was that she was CLEARLY aware that this individual was trans and was choosing to make comments such as pointedly calling her "SIR" and saying "urgh" / showing distaste... and other witnesses can attest to that... then I can understand why the reaction would be "Err this apology is BS and this is not what happened I want a real apology plz".

...yeah it does seem the reason she was pursuing it further was because the apology didn’t feel to have any weight to her...in that none of the witnesses she had were being questioned but the staff member appeared to have been...and she was obviously going to be defensive and very biased in her ‘story’..so none of the apology having a fair understanding...one defence which had been used was that she had a beard at the time as well ..which was obviously not the case...interesting though that the nurse didn’t seem to recall Chantelle or anything about the meeting and yet she was the one being questioned in the hospital investigation...

[Cherie]

To be fair, piecing it together, it sounds like the nurse may have been blatantly and openly transphobic and that was the complaint but when quizzed by her boss, she has (for obvious reasons) said that it was a mistake / misunderstanding and that she simply hadn't realised... and the apology will have been issued on those grounds. If the real issue was that she was CLEARLY aware that this individual was trans and was choosing to make comments such as pointedly calling her "SIR" and saying "urgh" / showing distaste... and other witnesses can attest to that... then I can understand why the reaction would be "Err this apology is BS and this is not what happened I want a real apology plz".

What is a real apology though? The time to have asked for an apology for there and then, if someone insults you in a hospital setting, do you go home and write to PALS, if it were me I would have asked to see the nurse in charge, in the presence of the witnesses, tbf any apology coming forth is going to be lip service either way if the nurse felt like that, I appreciate she might feel sorry she didn't do that at the time, but lesson learned.

[Ammi]

...I have to say I do think personally that she raised the issue in exactly the correct way..in that she didn’t at the time detract from any medical care, which was the thing of prime importance...then it would most definitely had been...’well what’s misgendering in terms of importance compared to potential required medical treatment’..you know...she had witnesses (...apparently according to the article..)...so with those witnesses prepared to speak as to the incident...(...but they were never called to speak..)...she officially wrote to the hospital administration because what had happened to her had breached their non discrimination policy...to me she did it all exactly right in raising the issue...

[Ammi]

...not in a hospital care setting where those requiring medical assistance are the only thing to immediately address...

[Elliot]

To be fair, piecing it together, it sounds like the nurse may have been blatantly and openly transphobic and that was the complaint but when quizzed by her boss, she has (for obvious reasons) said that it was a mistake / misunderstanding and that she simply hadn't realised... and the apology will have been issued on those grounds. If the real issue was that she was CLEARLY aware that this individual was trans and was choosing to make comments such as pointedly calling her "SIR" and saying "urgh" / showing distaste... and other witnesses can attest to that... then I can understand why the reaction would be "Err this apology is BS and this is not what happened I want a real apology plz".

I mean that’s the thing tho. She could’ve been intentionally and maliciously misgendered and it would be pretty hard to prove. Fsr when it comes to this debate the ball seems to be in the park of the person misgendering, and without going around audio recording everything or without a witness, it can’t be proved otherwise. It’s kinda like that with everything but there seems to be a LOT more sympathy for other marginalised people. Trans ppl have to go out of their way to make themselves heard when it comes to stuff like this, and in a lot of places they’re not listened to, which is a shame.

[Livia]

I mean I agree to an extent but surely it should be that care, compassion and apology is forthcoming to ALL... nit that "if the most deserving don't get one then NO ONE gets one".

My late husband and his mates dressed up in women's clothes for a couple of drunken stag nights... you know what straight blokes are like, can't wait to get into a pair of tights and a sock-stuffed bra. How is anyone supposed to tell the difference between them, and a man who identifies as a woman but is still physically, a man. And really, is it worth a news story and a grovelling public apology?

No.

[Livia]

Considering the terrible things that have happened to LGBT community in the past, I think if someone, accidentally or on purpose, misgenders them, it doesn't really warrant this whole hysterical backlash over someone's momentarily hurt feelings..

[Ammi]

....for many things change only happens though when awareness is raised...when concerns are raised and issues are raised...that’s not hysterical, there’s nothing hysterical about this case so far as I can see...she wrote to the hospital administration which was completely appropriate...I mean I just can’t see that ‘blokes in frocks’ can and will be moved on from in trans awareness because this is not dress up stuff..yeah I do understand in some situations it may not always be easier to tell the difference...?....but that’s surely why it’s important that these things do become highlighted...

[Niamh.]

....for many things change only happens though when awareness is raised...when concerns are raised and issues are raised...that’s not hysterical, there’s nothing hysterical about this case so far as I can see...she wrote to the hospital administration which was completely appropriate...I mean I just can’t see that ‘blokes in frocks’ can and will be moved on from in trans awareness because this is not dress up stuff..yeah I do understand in some situations it may not always be easier to tell the difference...?....but that’s surely why it’s important that these things do become highlighted...

Sure, yet anytime women raise concerns around trans issues, specifically self Iding, that's exactly what we're called. Shouldn't it work both ways?

[Livia]

....for many things change only happens though when awareness is raised...when concerns are raised and issues are raised...that’s not hysterical, there’s nothing hysterical about this case so far as I can see...she wrote to the hospital administration which was completely appropriate...I mean I just can’t see that ‘blokes in frocks’ can and will be moved on from in trans awareness because this is not dress up stuff..yeah I do understand in some situations it may not always be easier to tell the difference...?....but that’s surely why it’s important that these things do become highlighted...

She was wearing an Ann Summers Mrs Santa outfit.

When I worked for an MP, we had countless cases come to surgery, families who were appalled by the neglect of their loved ones in hospitals, almost always elderly people who were left hungry, dehydrated, covered in bedsores, suffering unexplained injuries injuries. Because the families had got themselves Power of Attorney for finance, but not for medical care, there was little they could do. Social services couldn't provide a care place, nor would they allow the person home, so they were kept in the geriatric ward and treated like scum. I never ever saw a letter of apology from a hospital.

[user104658]

Sure, yet anytime women raise concerns around trans issues, specifically self Iding, that's exactly what we're called. Shouldn't it work both ways?

Only if it's hysterical?

"This is a sensitive issue on all sides that needs careful consideration before making new policies than may affect women"... fair and not hysterical.

"Blokes are dressing up as women to assault them and there are going to be sexual attacks right, left and centre!!!" ... needless and hysterical.

:shrug:

[Ammi]

She was wearing an Ann Summers Mrs Santa outfit.

When I worked for an MP, we had countless cases come to surgery, families who were appalled by the neglect of their loved ones in hospitals, almost always elderly people who were left hungry, dehydrated, covered in bedsores, suffering unexplained injuries injuries. Because the families had got themselves Power of Attorney for finance, but not for medical care, there was little they could do. Social services couldn't provide a care place, nor would they allow the person home, so they were kept in the geriatric ward and treated like scum. I never ever saw a letter of apology from a hospital.

...yeah I do get that completely, Liv...that she was wearing something which I guess is specifically associated with ‘dress up’ or cosplay or whatever it is...I’m not familiar with the correct term...hence the bloke in frock thing I said and what you were saying about males that can dress up for stags etc and parties..?...errors can be understandable if something is unclear or misunderstood..?...but surely that’s even more reason why these things should be raised to clarify...?...because the fact of it is, it is extremely sad important to the trans community and surely should be to all of us...


...and yes I know the NHS had lots of issues ..(...and many great strengths as well...)...but one thing does not have any bearing on the other of this issue in my view...it’s a completely separate thing and deserves its own ‘airing’ with the hospital administration..l

[Ammi]

Sure, yet anytime women raise concerns around trans issues, specifically self Iding, that's exactly what we're called. Shouldn't it work both ways?

...yeah of course it should be a balanced field...I’m not sure which women have been called hysterical and for what reason....but when I find out, there’ll be trouble to pay..:fist:...

[bots]

Every time I venture out I could be offended by someone if I was minded too, and I would probably be perfectly justified in feeling that way too. The point being, if you go out looking to be offended you will be, but what is the point in letting others get you down? It's not a recipe for a mentally healthy life. To me it points to bigger issues that exist within the individual. Harsh maybe, but unless its behaviour repeated multiple times by the same individual, really, who cares.

[Ammi]

...or not..

[chuff me dizzy]

Every time I venture out I could be offended by someone if I was minded too, and I would probably be perfectly justified in feeling that way too. The point being, if you go out looking to be offended you will be, but what is the point in letting others get you down? It's not a recipe for a mentally healthy life. Yo me it points to bigger issues that exist within the individual. Harsh maybe, but unless its behaviour repeated multiple times by the same individual, really, who cares.

You've hit the nail on the head :worship:

[Ammi]

Only if it's hysterical?

"This is a sensitive issue on all sides that needs careful consideration before making new policies than may affect women"... fair and not hysterical.

"Blokes are dressing up as women to assault them and there are going to be sexual attacks right, left and centre!!!" ... needless and hysterical.

:shrug:

...raising potential concerns before any incident or issue... ‘prevent’..is also not hysterical though...only hysterical is hysterical...as in uncontrolled and unreasonable and negatively emotional etc..l

[Ammi]

...I just don’t know what particular thing Niamh is referring to in terms of women or a woman having been labelled hysterical for discussing anything trans related...my thoughts are just really focused on this story...

[Niamh.]

Only if it's hysterical?

"This is a sensitive issue on all sides that needs careful consideration before making new policies than may affect women"... fair and not hysterical.

"Blokes are dressing up as women to assault them and there are going to be sexual attacks right, left and centre!!!" ... needless and hysterical.

:shrug:

Anytime a story bringing anything about trans issues is posted here it's called a smear campaign, anytime any concerns are raised it's hysteria or just transphobia .

In regards to your first example, the "reasonable one", unfortunately nobody seems to be consulted at all before policies (such as allowing transwomen in womens sports) are put through, so alot of times it's too late for lets discuss this first

[user104658]

She was wearing an Ann Summers Mrs Santa outfit.


I understand why in this case that could cause a misunderstanding - it IS feasible that a non-trans male might dress up as Mrs Claus "pantomime style" for a Christmas thing and if it was a simple misunderstanding then that's one thing. However, the claim being made is that AFTER clarification was made that it was indeed a trans individual, the staff member openly showed disdain / disgust saying "Urgh", being dismissive, etc. and that's what makes it a different story. You could then say "well it's one person's word against another" as when emotions are high people tend to see things differently than they were intended... but again, the claim and complaint here is that there are uninvolved / unbiased witnesses who saw how the staff member reacted but no one asked those witnesses before accepting the staff member's explanation that it was just a misunderstanding.

So I suppose, the main issue here isn't the initial misgendering which CAN obviously happen completely innocently. Hell, it happens to non-trans people! A co-worker of mine once bellowed "EXCUSE ME!! That's the ladies!!" across the room at a little old man... who turned out to be a little old lady with a pixie cut :hehe:. The issue is how the staff member reacted after clarification was made. The professional thing to do is to apologise and then refer to that person as they wish to be. The extremely UNprofessional option is a sceptical eye-roll and "ugh!". Like I said if there are two sides to the story then there needs to be balance, but if there ARE indeed witnesses - it's a clear staff attitude problem and should be considered one by the service :shrug:.

[Niamh.]

...I just don’t know what particular thing Niamh is referring to in terms of women or a woman having been labelled hysterical for discussing anything trans related...my thoughts are just really focused on this story...

You haven't been posting here in a while Ammi :laugh:

I don't know why I even started posting here again about this stuff because it does always tend to go round in circles

[chuff me dizzy]

Anytime a story bringing anything about trans issues is posted here it's called a smear campaign, anytime any concerns are raised it's hysteria or just transphobia .

In regards to your first example, the "reasonable one", unfortunately nobody seems to be consulted at all before policies (such as allowing transwomen in womens sports) are put through, so alot of times it's too late for lets discuss this first

It seems the only people who are fair game for any negative comments are straight, white people

[chuff me dizzy]

You haven't been posting here in a while Ammi :laugh:

I don't know why even started posting here again about this stuff because it does always tend to go round in circles

:joker:

[Ammi]

You haven't been posting here in a while Ammi :laugh:

I don't know why I even started posting here again about this stuff because it does always tend to go round in circles

...yeah..maybe there was A THREAD...:laugh:..

[Niamh.]

...yeah..maybe there was A THREAD...:laugh:..

Great to see you back though, you were missed :love:

[user104658]

...I just don’t know what particular thing Niamh is referring to in terms of women or a woman having been labelled hysterical for discussing anything trans related...my thoughts are just really focused on this story...

I believe it might be referring to this;

And yet, the unrelated examples come out in force every time there's a thread even vaguely related to trans issues. Hmmm. And a LOT of protestations if it's pointed out; honestly it's the biggest backlash you'll get on this forum. A sensitive issue, clearly, though people are hesitant to admit it, and that says plenty.



Yes I imagine it probably seems so if you immerse yourself in social media/forum melting pots full of confirmation bias and frenzied hysteria.

(the above BIB is in reference to the way these discussions go on "Mumsnet")

Oh hysteria :joker:

It's not a word I particularly like because of the etymology but honestly if you've ever been on a "more colourful" Mumsnet thread, I don't think there's any other applicable word. Pitchforks and paranoia.

[Ammi]

Great to see you back though, you were missed :love:

...:hug:..(...you were missed also by me..)...

[Niamh.]

I believe it might be referring to this;



(the above BIB is in reference to the way these discussions go on "Mumsnet")

hhhmm I don't think that's the only time I've seen it posted in relation to the topic TS and I certainly wasn't referring to mumsnet I was talking about how people are spoken to or labelled here when they raise concerns about trans issues (specifically Self IDing, sports, prisons etc)

[user104658]

I stand by it too Ammi; the raging Mumsnet threads on trans rights are ridiculous transphobic witch-hunts that generate completely unreasonable levels of fear an paranoia, and threads on here on trans issues CAN and HAVE gone the same way :shrug:

[Niamh.]

I stand by it too Ammi; the raging Mumsnet threads on trans rights are ridiculous transphobic witch-hunts that generate completely unreasonable levels of fear an paranoia, and threads on here on trans issues CAN and HAVE gone the same way :shrug:

Well, dismissing womens concerns as hysteria isn't very helpful to discussions either TS, is it?

*not to mention pretty sexist

[user104658]

hhhmm I don't think that's the only time I've seen it posted in relation to the topic TS and I certainly wasn't referring to mumsnet I was talking about how people are spoken to or labelled here when they raise concerns about trans issues (specifically Self IDing, sports, prisons etc)

In the recent thread about the issues in sports literally everyone agreed with the premise that there are unfair advantages, and the only disagreement was over the spite / anger / insensitivity that's often on display.

The argument was

"Yeah it's a problem and needs addressed but we need to find sensitive ways to do that"

vs

"TOUGH **** EX PENIS-PEOPLE get your wig off and back to your man-stuff!!!"


No one on this forum argued for trans athletes to be included unquestioningly in male sports. Literally no one. And people still managed to get angry about the mere existence of transpeople. Therein lies the issue that people keep insisting I'm imagining.

[Ammi]

I believe it might be referring to this;



(the above BIB is in reference to the way these discussions go on "Mumsnet")

...oh I knew you would be the culprit tbh...you’re the only hysterical person around here so it had to be you...:laugh:...(....sorry I have to rush this because I’m about to go out..)...okay so I didn’t agree with Liv in that anything in the story could be referred to as hysterical and to do so can lessen genuine concerns and genuine issues etc and also genuine discriminations potentially..?...that’s the danger, which I’m sure you’ll agree, TS...and there you go....you’ve just done exactly the same with what you said..(...just taking that one post only that you’ve showed me ..)...you’ve just attempted to invalidate and lesson something someone said because of the source of mumsnet...?...I mean surely you did there what you don’t seem to think is a good idea and two wrongs don’t make a right etc...




...adios amigo..:love:..

[Niamh.]

In the recent thread about the issues in sports literally everyone agreed with the premise that there are unfair advantages, and the only disagreement was over the spite / anger / insensitivity that's often on display.

The argument was

"Yeah it's a problem and needs addressed but we need to find sensitive ways to do that"

vs

"TOUGH **** EX PENIS-PEOPLE get your wig off and back to your man-stuff!!!"


No one on this forum argued for trans athletes to be included unquestioningly in male sports. Literally no one. And people still managed to get angry about the mere existence of transpeople. Therein lies the issue that people keep insisting I'm imagining.

I love the way you expect people to speak like your first example when they're talking about womens rights but don't think you(or people speaking about trans rights) need to adhere to those rules yourselves though :laugh:


*I'm pretty sure I've never spoke like your second example (infact I would say 100% sure)

[Niamh.]

...oh I knew you would be the culprit tbh...you’re the only hysterical person around here so it had to be you...:laugh:...(....sorry I have to rush this because I’m about to go out..)...okay so I didn’t agree with Liv in that anything in the story could be referred to as hysterical and to do so can lessen genuine concerns and genuine issues etc and also genuine discriminations potentially..?...that’s the danger, which I’m sure you’ll agree, TS...and there you go....you’ve just done exactly the same with what you said..(...just taking that one post only that you’ve showed me ..)...you’ve just attempted to invalidate and lesson something someone said because of the source of mumsnet...?...I mean surely you did there what you don’t seem to think is a good idea and two wrongs don’t make a right etc...




...adios amigo..:love:..

see ya Ammi, don't be a stranger :love:

[Ammi]

I stand by it too Ammi; the raging Mumsnet threads on trans rights are ridiculous transphobic witch-hunts that generate completely unreasonable levels of fear an paranoia, and threads on here on trans issues CAN and HAVE gone the same way :shrug:

...maybe they do all of that...I’ve only ever glanced at Mumsnet so I wouldn’t know...but maybe there are quite a lot of raging people on there hunting the witches etc with their fear and their paranoia...?...but if that’s all you see and you’re not listening and absorbing because of that...?...then I would guess that you’re probably missing some very good points and concerns which should be raised...not dismissed...it’s exactly the same as this..’..there are more important things so let’s just dismiss this concern’...that’s happened in this discussion/thread surely...?...yes my friend it is...exactly the same ....

[user104658]

Well, dismissing womens concerns as hysteria isn't very helpful to discussions either TS, is it?

*not to mention pretty sexist

Is it not possible to point out that a concern is being expressed in an aggressive, sometimes needlessly offensive way, loaded down with some baseless assumptions, whilst still taking the core concern seriously? If I acknowledge that there's an issue, do I have to accept the unpleasant packaging of that concern? I'd say not, personally. Like I said, using sports as an example again, I'm in full agreement that women's sports need to be protected from potential problems but I'm not in support of the arguably transphobic rhetoric that often surrounds that message. I can't really say it any more clearly than that, I guess.

[user104658]

...maybe they do all of that...I’ve only ever glanced at Mumsnet so I wouldn’t know...but maybe there are quite a lot of raging people on there hunting the witches etc with their fear and their paranoia...?...but if that’s all you see and you’re not listening and absorbing because of that...?...then I would guess that you’re probably missing some very good points and concerns which should be raised...not dismissed...it’s exactly the same as this..’..there are more important things so let’s just dismiss this concern’...that’s happened in this discussion/thread surely...?...yes my friend it is...exactly the same ....

I can only refer you to the above example about sports which there was another large thread on that you missed, Ammi. The core concern wasn't dismissed by anyone - I think literally everyone agreed on that concern, yet an argument erupted over the clear anger / distaste towards transwomen that accompanied that concern.

[Niamh.]

Is it not possible to point out that a concern is being expressed in an aggressive, sometimes needlessly offensive way, loaded down with some baseless assumptions, whilst still taking the core concern seriously? If I acknowledge that there's an issue, do I have to accept the unpleasant packaging of that concern? I'd say not, personally. Like I said, using sports as an example again, I'm in full agreement that women's sports need to be protected from potential problems but I'm not in support of the arguably transphobic rhetoric that often surrounds that message. I can't really say it any more clearly than that, I guess.

Of course, however you only ever see the bad side in womens concerns, never seen you say a word about the bad side in how some trans people express their views sometimes ( (not all obviously) (the cyclist who took Martina Navratolva(sp) to task is a very good example of that.)

Anyway, I'm actually going to leave it here with you TS because we've really covered this ground numerous times and clearly we're not making any new ground on it.

[user104658]

Of course, however you only ever see the bad side in womens concerns, never seen you say a word about the bad side in how some trans people express their views sometimes

I can only promise that if there was a transwoman on here doing that, I am confident that I would :shrug:. But there isn't.

[Niamh.]

I can only promise that if there was a transwoman on here doing that, I am confident that I would :shrug:. But there isn't.

mumsnet isn't a member here either :laugh: Nice try though. Right I'm really bowing out now.

[user104658]

mumsnet isn't a member here either [emoji23] Nice try though. Right I'm really bowing out now.

Yes but I did say (at great personal risk :umm2: )

threads on here on trans issues CAN and HAVE gone the same way :shrug:

[Northern Monkey]

It’s a mine field these days all this transgender stuff.Soon staff at public services will just turn around and run away if they see a transgender incase they get something wrong.....Literal transphobia.

[Cherie]

The only other thing I can add is its probably better not to walk around in Ann Summers gear in public if you want to be taken seriously, especially during panto season :laugh: