Court orders historic revote on referendum as voters were uninformed

[The Slim Reaper]

https://thehill.com/policy/international/438510-switzerlands-supreme-court-orders-historic-revote-on-referendum-as

Switzerland's top court has for the first time in the country's modern history overturned the outcome of a nationwide referendum, saying voters were given "incomplete" information on the measure.

The country’s supreme court on Wednesday voided the result of a ballot held in 2016 that asked voters whether cohabiting partners and married couples should be required to pay the same taxes.

The proposal was narrowly rejected by voters at the time, with 50.8 percent of voters opposing the measure and 49.2 percent favoring it.

However, the court overturned the result of the referendum after finding that information provided to voters during the referendum campaign was "incomplete” and therefore in violation of the “freedom of the vote,” according to the BBC.

Ahead of the February 2016 vote, the Swiss government reportedly told voters that only 80,000 married couples paid more in taxes than couples who resided together.

However, the government later said that the true number was roughly 500,000, according to the BBC.

"Keeping in mind the close result and the severe nature of the irregularities, it is possible that the outcome of the ballot could have been different," the nation’s court said in a statement, according to the BBC.

The Christian Democratic party, which had reportedly proposed the 2016 vote on whether married couples were unfairly penalized under the country’s tax regime, brought an appeal against the result last year, arguing that voters had been misinformed.

The group praised the court’s recent decision in a statement to BBC, calling it a "boost for the political rights of Swiss voters.”

However, some critics of the court’s move have argued that the ruling could open the door to more complaints about referendums in the country.

[Smithy]

1116524612483989504

@TheresaMay follow suit hen :idc:

Switzerland's top court has for the first time in the country's modern history overturned the outcome of a nationwide referendum, saying voters were given "incomplete" information on the measure.

The country's supreme court on Wednesday voided the result of a ballot held in 2016 that asked voters whether cohabiting partners and married couples should be required to pay the same taxes.

The proposal was narrowly rejected by voters at the time, with 50.8 percent of voters opposing the measure and 49.2 percent favoring it.

However, the court overturned the result of the referendum after finding that information provided to voters during the referendum campaign was "incomplete" and therefore in violation of the "freedom of the vote," according to the BBC.

Ahead of the February 2016 vote, the Swiss government reportedly told voters that only 80,000 married couples paid more in taxes than couples who resided together.

However, the government later said that the true number was roughly 500,000, according to the BBC.

[Smithy]

Oh lol I just posted this too can a mod merge :hee:

[The Slim Reaper]

Oh lol I just posted this too can a mod merge :hee:

I'm sure two threads won't cause Arista's head to explode or anything.

[Vicky.]

Interesting...dare I hope we may do the same thing. Honestly, I think voters on both sides were misinformed and lied to and basically, given there have been so many 'rule breaks' and such, I do think that there should be another vote at this stage. My parents voted leave, mainly fell for the NHS thing but also..wanted to leave with a deal on the common market and such. As no deal seems to be possible, they say they would vote differently now. I think a lot of people would. It was ridiculous to have the referendum when there was so much crap said and not many actually understood what they were voting for (BOTH sides, again). As it was so close, another vote to cement whats wanted would be fine by me. I was on the 'ok, just leave' side, until all the ****ing ridiculous **** thats gone on since. I don't really understand the anger about the possibility, IF its actually what 'the people' want to leave with no deal, then surely the vote would reflect that.

I know this is not about brexit. But its the first thing I thought of.

[Northern Monkey]

Sore losers.

A bit like here really :laugh:

Seems like a new precedent.
‘We don’t like it....Cancel it’

[The Slim Reaper]

Sore losers.

A bit like here really :laugh:

Seems like a new precedent.
‘We don’t like it....Cancel it’

How about don't lie and cheat and we won't cancel it?

[Oliver_W]

So they reversed a referendum so they could make cohabitors pay higher taxes? Sounds about right. tbh married couples should get tax breaks if anything.

[Niamh.]

So they reversed a referendum so they could make cohabitors pay higher taxes? Sounds about right. tbh married couples should get tax breaks if anything.

Married couples do get tax breaks?

[Oliver_W]

Married couples do get tax breaks?

Apparently not in Switzerland, when 500,000 married couples pay more tax than cohabitors.

[Niamh.]

Apparently not in Switzerland, when 500,000 married couples pay more tax than cohabitors.

Really? That's odd, not much incentive to get married then

[Twosugars]

Sore losers.

A bit like here really :laugh:

Seems like a new precedent.
‘We don’t like it....Cancel it’

not cancel, repeat!

Why Leavers are so afraid their wafer-thin majority won bc of lies will evaporate in another ref? :think: Beats me :shrug:

[Glenn.]

If remain won the referendum and leavers were crying out for another vote the remoaners would be singing a completely different tune. Fact.

[Denver]

If remain won the referendum and leavers were crying out for another vote the remoaners would be singing a completely different tune. Fact.

Tea they are sore losers who expect the to be given what they want when they want

[Shaun]

Thank you Glenn for a useless hypothetical

[Smithy]

If remain won the referendum and leavers were crying out for another vote the remoaners would be singing a completely different tune. Fact.

What the **** :joker:

You can’t even compare the two

If remain had won the referendum, life would have carried on as normal, there would have been a month maybe 6 weeks of leavers moaning.

Fact of the matter is leave won with no idea of how to actually leave, they won based on lies. People didn’t know what they were voting for when they voted leave and now people are waking up to the realization it’s a **** show and that’s why they want a second vote

[arista]

I'm sure two threads won't cause Arista's head to explode or anything.


At least Smithy
put the Nation on the title

[Glenn.]

What the **** :joker:

You can’t even compare the two

If remain had won the referendum, life would have carried on as normal, there would have been a month maybe 6 weeks of leavers moaning.

Fact of the matter is leave won with no idea of how to actually leave, they won based on lies. People didn’t know what they were voting for when they voted leave and now people are waking up to the realization it’s a **** show and that’s why they want a second vote

That’s exactly how a remoaner would reply to what I said.

[Glenn.]

Thank you Glenn for a useless hypothetical

Me at your review thread

[The Slim Reaper]

At least Smithy
put the Nation on the title

Me when writing the thread title

https://media.giphy.com/media/srTYyZ1BjBtGU/giphy.gif

[Elliot]

That’s exactly how a remoaner would reply to what I said.

How else are you supposed to reply to a nonsensical hypothetical

[Glenn.]

It isn’t nonsensical.

[Smithy]

That’s exactly how a remoaner would reply to what I said.

That’s exactly what someone who’s uninformed and can’t have an intelligent discussion about the matter at hand would reply to what I’ve said

[Cherie]

Tbf if remain had won, leave would still be banging on about leaving the EU as Farage said the night before the result when he thought leave had lost that they wouldn't give up. There is no shame in following your belief and that goes for both leave and remain

[Glenn.]

That’s exactly what someone who’s uninformed and can’t have an intelligent discussion about the matter at hand would reply to what I’ve said

You didn’t really say anything of any substance though. Just the same **** remain have been saying for two years.

[Smithy]

You didn’t really say anything of any substance though. Just the same **** remain have been saying for two years.

:joker: embarrassing

[Glenn.]

Ok so that’s that on that

[Marsh.]

Me at your review thread

http://i.imgur.com/X3gac.gif

[Twosugars]

Let's face it, Brexit is something with consequences stretching for DECADES

One very tiny majority vote is not enough to settle it.

[Glenn.]

Still a majority though isn’t it?

[Marsh.]

Let's face it, Brexit is something with consequences stretching for DECADES

One very tiny majority vote is not enough to settle it.

So a majority isn't good enough anymore?

Pray tell at what percentage is democracy allowed nowadays?

[Smithy]

Still a majority though isn’t it?

So a majority isn't good enough anymore?

Pray tell at what percentage is democracy allowed nowadays?

A majority based on lies and with no clear cut way out

If you and your friends vote to go to a restaurant without knowing what the food is like, do you still go 3 days later knowing they serve dog **** because a majority vote won?

Of course not.

[Marsh.]

A majority based on lies and with no clear cut way out

If you and your friends vote to go to a restaurant without knowing what the food is like, do you still go 3 days later knowing they serve dog **** because a majority vote won?

Of course not.

Well what a sh*t analogy.

You make a new decision everytime you go to eat out at a restaurant and it's your freedom to decide where you want to go each time.

Brexit is not a "Change your mind when the wind changes" decision. :idc:

[Glenn.]

People voted to leave the European Union. Literally that what was voted for. It’s parliament that ****ed it up

[Smithy]

People voted to leave the European Union. Literally that what was voted for. It’s parliament that ****ed it up

People voted on it based on lies :joker: people regret their votes because of lies that were told by leave, what part of that aren’t you getting through your skull?

Why shouldn’t people be allowed to change their mind after realizing they were lied to?

[Twosugars]

So a majority isn't good enough anymore?

Pray tell at what percentage is democracy allowed nowadays?
I'd imagine the bigger the issue the higher the majority.
If there's a second ref I'd hope they set a minimum majority like 55%

The thing is there was too much lies and the slimmer the majority the more "volatile" the result. That's why it should be repeated.

The first ref wasn't legally binding but advisory so we should have another one

[Twosugars]

People voted to leave the European Union. Literally that what was voted for. It’s parliament that ****ed it up

You realize you can leave the EU but still remain in the customs union and the single market?

[Crimson Dynamo]

Switzerland?

in the name of God

the cuckoo clock place?


lol

[Twosugars]

Switzerland?

in the name of God

the cuckoo clock place?


lol

Said LT, from the haggis place

[Crimson Dynamo]

Said LT, from the haggis place

and the place that invented banks and banknotes

i take it you use both?

[Marsh.]

If there's a second ref I'd hope they set a minimum majority like 55%

:laugh2:

[Smithy]

and the place that invented banks and banknotes

i take it you use both?

It did neither of those things :laugh3:

[Twosugars]

:laugh2:

It is done sometimes in referendums.

[Crimson Dynamo]

It did neither of those things :laugh3:

go google it sonny jim

[Twosugars]

and the place that invented banks and banknotes

i take it you use both?

so?

you gonna dismiss the Swiss bc of the cuckoo clock? Don't be ridiculous

[Smithy]

go google it sonny jim

Paper currency first developed in Tang dynasty China during the 7th century, although true paper money did not appear until the 11th century, during the Song dynasty

The first bank to initiate the permanent issue of banknotes was the Bank of England. Established in 1694 to raise money for the funding of the war against France, the bank began issuing notes in 1695 with the promise to pay the bearer the value of the note on demand

More modern banking can be traced to medieval and early Renaissance Italy, to the rich cities in the centre and north like Florence, Lucca, Siena, Venice and Genoa. The Bardi and Peruzzi families dominated banking in 14th-century Florence, establishing branches in many other parts of Europe

Modern banking practices, including fractional reserve banking and the issue of banknotes, emerged in the 17th and 18th centuries. Merchants started to store their gold with the goldsmiths of London

:laugh3:

[Marsh.]

The first banknote came from China. The first bank to use paper money regularly was Bank of England.

Am I using the wrong google?

[Glenn.]

Did leave campaign lie about making our own laws? Just asking

[Vicky.]

Tbf if remain had won, leave would still be banging on about leaving the EU as Farage said the night before the result when he thought leave had lost that they wouldn't give up. There is no shame in following your belief and that goes for both leave and remain

Yup.

I do wonder what the vote would look like now that all the lies and stuff is uncovered. I figure it would be quite a large margin between, not close.

[Vicky.]

Did leave campaign lie about making our own laws? Just asking

We do make our own laws?

Anyway, this is a good read..on that note about how we apparently have no freedom and such...

https://www.indy100.com/article/brexit-twitter-thread-political-analyst-european-union-united-kingdom-united-states-america-7834846

[Glenn.]

Just found this

On one level, the UK’s sovereign law making powers, centred on its Parliament, are challenged by its membership of the European Union, as the UK is constrained in its actions by the agreements it has entered into and laws made under the EU Treaties. These laws have primacy over the laws of the member states.

However, this pooling of sovereignty, and restriction on Parliament’s powers has been voluntarily entered into by the UK. Indeed, parliamentary sovereignty is seen still to apply as it is an Act of Parliament that gives EU law its force in the UK. Parliament could revoke that law – though that would leave the UK in breach of the terms of EU membership


So that means we can’t make our own laws without breaching the terms of our EU Membership? Yes?

[Greg!]

People voted to leave the European Union. Literally that what was voted for. It’s parliament that ****ed it up

Theresa May ****ed it up by creating ridiculous red lines for herself in the negotiations and refusing to compromise even after she lost her majority.

[Glenn.]

Tezza standing strong and stable

[Mystic Mock]

What the **** :joker:

You can’t even compare the two

If remain had won the referendum, life would have carried on as normal, there would have been a month maybe 6 weeks of leavers moaning.

Fact of the matter is leave won with no idea of how to actually leave, they won based on lies. People didn’t know what they were voting for when they voted leave and now people are waking up to the realization it’s a **** show and that’s why they want a second vote

This to a tea really.

You can't force nearly half the country into a massive change like pulling out of the EU without proper planning when these said people didn't want to leave. It's basic democracy.

[Mystic Mock]

:laugh2:

Tbf it's a sensible suggestion given the fact that it's gonna have a massive impact on everybody's lives in this country.

As I've already said you can't have nearly half the country being forced into a hard Brexit when they didn't even want a soft Brexit.:joker:

The UK isn't a democracy if Hard Brexit is the outcome when the people didn't even vote for it.

[Glenn.]

‘Nearly half’

[rusticgal]

If remain won the referendum and leavers were crying out for another vote the remoaners would be singing a completely different tune. Fact.

Exactly...I wont be changing my vote but I will be pissed off bigtime if we have another referendum..just a bunch of sore losers.

[Marsh.]

Tbf it's a sensible suggestion given the fact that it's gonna have a massive impact on everybody's lives in this country.

As I've already said you can't have nearly half the country being forced into a hard Brexit when they didn't even want a soft Brexit.:joker:

The UK isn't a democracy if Hard Brexit is the outcome when the people didn't even vote for it.

:facepalm:

[Smithy]

Where did LT go, I thought he was teaching us about Scotland making bank notes and banks

[Marsh.]

"You can't leave the EU, when some people voted to remain in the EU".

Ok Mock.

[Mystic Mock]

‘Nearly half’

48.4% Voted for Remain whilst 51.6% voted for Brexit without no clarification what type of Brexit the people were voting for out of Soft and Hard Brexit.

Imo we should at least have a second Referendum on what type of Brexit that we're gonna go for considering the Government has no idea what it wants to do going forward.

[Mystic Mock]

:facepalm:

I've only stated a fact.

Do you honestly believe that this would be the end of it if the result was the other way around? No and rightly so.

[Mystic Mock]

"You can't leave the EU, when some people voted to remain in the EU".

Ok Mock.

It's more than some, you're just being contrary for the sake of it here.

It's not a proper democracy if nearly half the country is against a massive change in how the country is run, and an extreme form of Brexit happens which nobody voted for, or are you gonna argue about that as well?

It's common sense what I'm saying here, it's a discussion that can't be resolved until either side has formed a bigger majority imo.

[Cherie]

The problem I have with leaving the EU, is that the UK will be leaving a huge trading block with all the advantages that brings and the buying power, and trading independently with the USA, China, India, who will dictate the terms...it will not put the UK on the front foot far from it, so out of the frying pan into the fire it seems ... and as for making their own laws the government in power will make the laws.....the laws that were any good, like workers and disability rights were made by the EU......

[Cherie]

you told the 'government' what you wanted.. are they doing it? wait until they have complete control...

[Marsh.]

It's common sense what I'm saying here

Ok Mock.

[Mystic Mock]

Ok Mock.

So you what would you do in this situation then? Because apparently pissing off over 48% of the country with Hard Brexit is okay by you then by the fact that my suggestion of how to do a second referendum is crazy to you I'm gathering.

[Marsh.]

So you what would you do in this situation then? Because apparently pissing over 48% of the country with Hard Brexit is okay by you then by the fact that my suggestion of how to do a second referendum is crazy to you I'm gathering.

Ok Mock.

[Smithy]

So you what would you do in this situation then? Because apparently pissing off over 48% of the country with Hard Brexit is okay by you then by the fact that my suggestion of how to do a second referendum is crazy to you I'm gathering.

It’s not 48% of the country, it’s 48% of the people who voted

It’s over half of the country :hee:

[Mystic Mock]

Ok Mock.

Have you been hacked or something? At least debate your point as to why this very referendum should go ahead without question considering you don't think that there should be a second referendum to stay in the EU, or that there shouldn't be a vote between which Brexit we should have out of Soft or Hard Brexit.

I mean they're the two points I've put forward and the only posts that you've come with so far is mocking a factual point that I've put up, putting up a facepalm emoji, and repeatedly typing ok Mock in your last couple of replies to me.

It's not exactly a great endorsement as to why my points are invalid and why your points are to be respected imo, but I suppose we all see things differently.

[Mystic Mock]

It’s not 48% of the country, it’s 48% of the people who voted

It’s over half of the country :hee:

I agree with what you're saying.

But in fairness the majority of Remainers either couldn't vote due to their age, or couldn't be bothered to vote so I've just gone with the statistics.

[Glenn.]

We’d manage whatever Brexit we get. We managed just fine before we were members of the EU

[Cherie]

We’d manage whatever Brexit we get. We managed just fine before we were members of the EU

The world has moved on since the 70s

[Smithy]

We’d manage whatever Brexit we get. We managed just fine before we were members of the EU

:joker::joker:

This kind of ignorance is honestly overwhelming, things have changed since then

[Cherie]

I heard some bloke on the radio the other day saying we planted potatoes in our back gardens and shot rabbits in the fields....yes we really want to go there...:umm2:

[Mystic Mock]

We’d manage whatever Brexit we get. We managed just fine before we were members of the EU

Weren't the last time that we had no proper trade deal with any kind of European Union group was in the 60's? I mean I'm not really sure on that but I thought that it was a few decades ago.

[Glenn.]

The fear you all have is frightening and hilarious

[Cherie]

saying we managed before is like saying we should go back to black and white tv and 2 channels

[Glenn.]

Do you have Sky. We may as well have 2 channels as there’s nothing ever on

[Cherie]

Do you have Sky. We may as well have 2 channels as there’s nothing ever on

true

[Elliot]

We’d manage whatever Brexit we get. We managed just fine before we were members of the EU

We’d also manage not having brexit at all hahaha

[Mystic Mock]

The fear you all have is frightening and hilarious

You see I think it's all about perspective.

For me personally I have a family member that works in the Car Industry which is getting knocked about quite badly due to a likely no deal Brexit outcome.

It's personal information I know, but I don't want my family member potentially losing their job and countless other people possibly losing their jobs because we as a nation were too stubborn to come to a compromise, or are in a directionless state which leaves us all in a bad way.

[Marsh.]

Have you been hacked or something? At least debate your point as to why this very referendum should go ahead without question considering you don't think that there should be a second referendum to stay in the EU, or that there shouldn't be a vote between which Brexit we should have out of Soft or Hard Brexit.

I mean they're the two points I've put forward and the only posts that you've come with so far is mocking a factual point that I've put up, putting up a facepalm emoji, and repeatedly typing ok Mock in your last couple of replies to me.

It's not exactly a great endorsement as to why my points are invalid and why your points are to be respected imo, but I suppose we all see things differently.

Ok, Mock.

[Mystic Mock]

Ok, Mock.

:joker:

[Twosugars]

Marsh, are you a leaver?

[Marsh.]

I am. :)

[Mystic Mock]

I am. :)

And there's nothing wrong in that imo.

I'm obviously a Remainer, but I can respect opposing opinions.

Out of interest are you more in support of a hard or soft Brexit?

[Twosugars]

Ok, I didn't know tbh.

My main problem with the EU membership issue is lack of information.

If we are lucky enough to have another referendum I wish somebody impartial, say the Electoral Commission, run infomercials explaining things properly. No agenda, just facts.
Things about the EU, single market, customs union, the current arrangement of the UK membership with all the opt-outs Britain has.

[Denver]

The EU are money robbing scumbags, they absolutely destroyed countries like Greece

[Marsh.]

And there's nothing wrong in that imo.

I'm obviously a Remainer, but I can respect opposing opinions.

Out of interest are you more in support of a hard or soft Brexit?

Firm, but bouncy. Like my mattress.

[Twosugars]

The EU are money robbing scumbags, they absolutely destroyed countries like Greece

Not quite.
Greece destroyed Greece.

[Denver]

Also how can people justify paying £13b a year into an organisation that only gives £4b back? Where is the money going to

[Mystic Mock]

The EU are money robbing scumbags, they absolutely destroyed countries like Greece

Tbf Greece had problems financially before they joined the EU.

I think that Spain had issues financially recently though didn't they?

[Mystic Mock]

Firm, but bouncy. Like my mattress.

So more of a middle ground approach?

[Denver]

Tbf Greece had problems financially before they joined the EU.

I think that Spain had issues financially recently though didn't they?

But the financial burden and repayment scheme the EU put upon them has crippled them and it would be nowhere as worse if they were not in the EU

[Twosugars]

The only fault I could place with the EU re. Greece is that Euro joining conditions were not tough enough. Greece had no business joining it in the shape it was.

[Twosugars]

But the financial burden and repayment scheme the EU put upon them has crippled them and it would be nowhere as worse if they were not in the EU

Adam, it'd help if you didn't confuse the EU with the Eurozone.

[Denver]

Adam, it'd help if you didn't confuse the EU with the Eurozone.

The EU are a driving force behind it, Greece would have sorted themselves out

[Mystic Mock]

But the financial burden and repayment scheme the EU put upon them has crippled them and it would be nowhere as worse if they were not in the EU

You're probably right about Greece's situation, but that's because they've joined the EU as a basketcase financially anyway so the people of Greece probably wouldn't notice any initial setbacks if they were to leave like I think that we will once we leave in October or whenever it is that we leave again now. I feel like any EU Imports will see prices sky rocket without no trade arrangement with them but I could be wrong in saying that as I'm no expert on Politics as you can probably tell.:laugh:

Like Twosugars though I am amazed that the EU let Greece in without no proper checks on Greece's financial state.

[Twosugars]

The EU are a driving force behind it, Greece would have sorted themselves out

And the advantage for the EU in ruining one of its members would be...? Enlighten me.

[bots]

As a referendum is advisory only and has no legal standing, i am somewhat mystified why a supreme court would over turn a poll that has no legal basis :shrug:

[Vicky.]

A current issue with Brexit is not really the endless misinformation that was flying around, but that a lot of leavers voted leave under the impression there would be some sort of deal, and also do no wish to just crash out and just hope for the best, which is, daft to most people. Mind, I guess it does count as more disinformation when it was made out that it would all be easy and basically the EU would let us keep all the good parts of membership while letting us ditch the bad..like, why on earth would they do this?! As no deal seems to be looking like the only option really..I don't really get what wuld be wrong with some kind of vote of...leave with no deal or revoke article 50. IF, as leavers say, over half the country still want to leave, and do not want any deal either, then that will win the vote..surely? So again, not seeing the issue.

And Farage already planning for pressure for another vote when he thought remain was going to win..is sort of relevant when people whinge about remainers not being too thrilled that a very small majority was deemed good enough. I am sure I remember him saying if the majority was a few percent, it should be set aside until the majority was larger, or something. Until his side won of course, then that suddenly became 'hahaha Remoaners whinging when the vote was binding' and whatever.

[Vicky.]

Also how can people justify paying £13b a year into an organisation that only gives £4b back? Where is the money going to

Its not quite as simple as we pay 13b and get back 4. We do get extra back for stuff like research grants but those are paid direct to the private sector...estimated to be like 1.5-2b in total. So yeah we are still net contributers (I think theres only a few countries who actually are?) but not quite as high as what is posted around. Also, its not for nothing. The benefits..appear to me to be worth it to me, tbh. Obviously not to you, but its not really a case like someone seem to think of just randomly giving out cash for no reason :laugh:

Fullfact has a couple of breakdowns including https://fullfact.org/europe/claim-about-uks-eu-contribution-correct-meaningless/

As for 'where does it go'..well similar to government budgets, theres plans laid out quite clearly..if you are genuinely asking. https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-budget/expenditure_en

I have read far too much EU stuff over the past few years...my head is swiming with random crap and half of it is disinformation too!

[bots]

Its not quite as simple as we pay 13b and get back 4. We do get extra back for stuff like research grants but those are paid direct to the private sector...estimated to be like 1.5-2b in total. So yeah we are still net contributers (I think theres only a few countries who actually are?) but not quite as high as what is posted around. Also, its not for nothing. The benefits..appear to me to be worth it to me, tbh. Obviously not to you, but its not really a case like someone seem to think of just randomly giving out cash for no reason :laugh:

Fullfact has a couple of breakdowns including https://fullfact.org/europe/claim-about-uks-eu-contribution-correct-meaningless/

As for 'where does it go'..well similar to government budgets, theres plans laid out quite clearly..if you are genuinely asking. https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/eu-budget/expenditure_en

I have read far too much EU stuff over the past few years...my head is swiming with random crap and half of it is disinformation too!

Germany, france and the uk are the only net contributors

[Vicky.]

Germany, france and the uk are the only net contributors

Yeah I thought it was something like that.

Honestly, I am still fairly undecided on if its overall a positive thing for us or not, but, with so much bull floating around its really hard to tell. I was actually undecided on my vote right up until half an hour before voting, and have always said we should just go for it and do it, even with a tiny majority. But this was before the recent ****show..and again, assuming there would be some kind of deal. The way Brexit has been handled has been crap from start to finish really. I still cannot and probably will not ever believe that Cameron was so arrogant in his thinking that the country would just vote to stay and that would be it that there were no bloody plans drawn up before the vote. And that the vote only happened as he crapped himself that Farage might take a few of his votes..thats no bloody reason to get the country to make such a huge bloody decision, for a few more general election votes man.

And then May triggers article 50 with no plan too!

[Smithy]

What did you vote Vicky?

[user104658]

Also how can people justify paying £13b a year into an organisation that only gives £4b back? Where is the money going to

Being part of the EU is (it is increasingly apparent) essential to City of London trading, the UK is attractive to global business because it is (was) the English-speaking gateway to the entire continent. These organisations have already started jumping ship, and we haven't even left yet. The cost to the UK is going to be so far beyond £13 billion pounds a year that the complaint about how much we've paid in, at this point, seems like an absolute joke.

[Vicky.]

I voted remain in the end. But tbh, I was probably as misinformed as near everyone else! It wasn't until afterwards that I developed an obsession with reading stuff about the EU and basically voted on a 'better the devil you know' kind of way rather than anything else. If I knew then what I do now, there would have been absolutely no question of my vote and I would have felt a lot more..secure in it.

[bots]

People can slag off Maggie Thatcher for eternity, but she was the only PM with the balls to demand the UK get a rebate every year on our contributions. No labour party or subsequent tory party has ever been as tough with the EU as she was.

[Smithy]

I voted remain in the end. But tbh, I was probably as misinformed as near everyone else! It wasn't until afterwards that I developed an obsession with reading stuff about the EU and basically voted on a 'better the devil you know' kind of way rather than anything else. If I knew then what I do now, there would have been absolutely no question of my vote and I would have felt a lot more..secure in it.

I imagine there’s a lot of people in the exact same boat that voted leave

[user104658]

People can slag off Maggie Thatcher for eternity, but she was the only PM with the balls to demand the UK get a rebate every year on our contributions. No labour party or subsequent tory party has ever been as tough with the EU as she was.

Yes but that's probably only so that she could funnel it into more arms deals with the Middle East. :umm2:

[The Slim Reaper]

Yes but that's probably only so that she could funnel it into more arms deals with the Middle East. :umm2:

She wasn't funnelling to her own decimated cities, that's for sure.

[The Slim Reaper]

Did leave campaign lie about making our own laws? Just asking

What laws do you think we should try and implement that we don't have currently?

[Glenn.]

Whatever law we want to?

[Smithy]

Whatever law we want to?

Such as?

Give an example of a law you want

[user104658]

Or better yet an example of a law we can't make currently? Because the idea that we can't make domestic laws is false.

[Cherie]

we can unbend the non bendy banana law yay!

[Tom4784]

A lot of leavers tend to believe that their version of Brexit is the brexit that everyone wants. The problem is that no one can truly say what kind of Brexit people want because we were only asked if we wanted to leave, not how we wanted to leave.

Brexit as it stands is impossible to deliver to satisfaction because there's no consensus, even among the leavers of what they want.

[Mystic Mock]

A lot of leavers tend to believe that their version of Brexit is the brexit that everyone wants. The problem is that no one can truly say what kind of Brexit people want because we were only asked if we wanted to leave, not how we wanted to leave.

Brexit as it stands is impossible to deliver to satisfaction because there's no consensus, even among the leavers of what they want.

This 100%.

It's why I do really think that a second referendum should happen on what kind of Brexit people want at the very least.