Scottish lad kicked out of class for saying "there are only 2 genders imo"

[Crimson Dynamo]

:shocked:

xcmxFw1LAbo


Good teaching or eerily Orwellian?

[chuff me dizzy]

So the teachers opinion counts but not the lads ? Wow how arrogant

[Strictly Jake]

But there is only 2 genders? We are taught that at school in science lessons. Your either born a male or born a female its up to people if they change sex but still it's two genders?!

[Kazanne]

:shocked:

xcmxFw1LAbo


Good teaching or eerily Orwellian?

How ridiculous ,surely he is allowed an opinion,no need to chuck him out.

[Niamh.]

When you actually google it, this is what comes up :

either of the two sexes (male and female), especially when considered with reference to social and cultural differences rather than biological ones. The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female.
"a condition that affects people of both genders"

2 genders are mentioned but then also "The term is also used more broadly to denote a range of identities that do not correspond to established ideas of male and female." which to me is re enforcing the idea that gender rather than sex is basing itself on stereotypes.

[Ammi]

...this is where the whole incident/conversation/context etc would be really helpful...impossible really to comment at all without it tbh...

[chuff me dizzy]

But there is only 2 genders? We are taught that at school in science lessons. Your either born a male or born a female its up to people if they change sex but still it's two genders?!

Totally agree

[Ammi]

...I don’t think the tutor is explaining himself very well though ...or has very good control of what was obviously a ‘situation’...

[Niamh.]

...this is where the whole incident/conversation/context etc would be really helpful...impossible really to comment at all without it tbh...

Haven't watched the video yet but yeah, these mobile recorded evidences can be unreliable and without proper context aswell.

[Vicky.]

Depends how you define gender. Many people use it to mean sex, in which case he is correct of course.

However the meaning of 'gender' has been used another way recently. In short, means the stereotypes associated with your sex that you follow, along with how you 'feel internally'. There are something like 90 'genders' when really, there should be 7billion as its nowt but personality and personal preferences so every single person has a different 'gender' if using the current definition.

It seems quite obvious the lad was meaning gender=sex, so yeah, there are only 2.

Either way, its ridiculous how some behave when talking about this, and kicking a kid out for giving his view is crap, but not the least bit surprising. That kind of thing happens all the time these days.

[Oliver_W]

Of course there are only two genders.

While it is separate from sex, there are still only two.

[Cherie]

the teacher looked like he didn't really believe in what he was saying, just following rules so he didn't lose his job...

[user104658]

Depends how you define gender. Many people use it to mean sex, in which case he is correct of course.


This is indeed the issue but it's worth pointing out that the term "gender" has a specific origin and definition and the terms "gender" and "sex" are by definition not interchangeable. Notable because if they WERE interchangeable, the term "gender" would never have been required in the first place. Yes many people (mistakenly) believe that they mean the same thing. They don't. Sex is a biological term and there are two sexes; that is scientific fact. Gender is a sociological term not a biological term and gender is a sliding scale... that's just what it is and what it means.

If we're coming down to personal opinion, the accurate opinion of someone who is critical of that scale, would be that the sociological concept of gender is flawed or false in its entirety.

The statement that there "are only two genders" is false, by definition, and not open to interpretation... there are either a multitude, or it doesn't exist and there are none. There are not "two". Full stop.

So there are several issues here. One being that the pupil actually is both A) factually incorrect and B) over-confident in his reasons for being correct...

BUT yes, also, the teacher himself is blatantly totally unclear on this and is waving his authority wand because he doesn't actually know how to academically address the issue (by explaining the difference between the scientific / biological definition of sex, the sociological concept of gender, and the differences between the two) because HE doesn't understand it either.

So... meh. The kid is incorrect but it's also a piss-poor example of effective teaching, especially because the teacher is clearly on the verge of losing his cool when (from what's in the video) there's no reason to do so, and his approach is actually doing nothing but cementing this belief rather than helping a young mind to engage in some less-rigid thinking.

But what can you really expect in a high school teaching environment? Crap working conditions, crap pay, low prospects, little reward. It's not attracting the best and brightest and it won't - ever - until our governments realise that it is the most important thing that we should be spending on. :shrug:

[Ammi]

This is indeed the issue but it's worth pointing out that the term "gender" has a specific origin and definition and the terms "gender" and "sex" are by definition not interchangeable. Notable because if they WERE interchangeable, the term "gender" would never have been required in the first place. Yes many people (mistakenly) believe that they mean the same thing. They don't. Sex is a biological term and there are two sexes; that is scientific fact. Gender is a sociological term not a biological term and gender is a sliding scale... that's just what it is and what it means.

If we're coming down to personal opinion, the accurate opinion of someone who is critical of that scale, would be that the sociological concept of gender is flawed or false in its entirety.

The statement that there "are only two genders" is false, by definition, and not open to interpretation... there are either a multitude, or it doesn't exist and there are none. There are not "two". Full stop.

So there are several issues here. One being that the pupil actually is both A) factually incorrect and B) over-confident in his reasons for being correct...

BUT yes, also, the teacher himself is blatantly totally unclear on this and is waving his authority wand because he doesn't actually know how to academically address the issue (by explaining the difference between the scientific / biological definition of sex, the sociological concept of gender, and the differences between the two) because HE doesn't understand it either.

So... meh. The kid is incorrect but it's also a piss-poor example of effective teaching, especially because the teacher is clearly on the verge of losing his cool when (from what's in the video) there's no reason to do so, and his approach is actually doing nothing but cementing this belief rather than helping a young mind to engage in some less-rigid thinking.

But what can you really expect in a high school teaching environment? Crap working conditions, crap pay, low prospects, little reward. It's not attracting the best and brightest and it won't - ever - until our governments realise that it is the most important thing that we should be spending on. :shrug:

...brilliant post..:love:...if only schools attracted such people as yourself...what an education world for our children, eh...:flutter:..

[Crimson Dynamo]

he was pretty angry

[Crimson Dynamo]

"But what can you really expect in a high school teaching environment? Crap working conditions, crap pay, low prospects, little reward."

what utter tosh. My kids school is brand new (as are all the HIgh Schools around this region), the facilities excellent, nice pupils and they get half the bloody year off and if they dont like it there are plenty other jobs in this age of record employment

Every advert for teaching and every teacher clearly states that IT IS A REWARDING JOB

Its not Grange Hill anymore:shrug:

[user104658]

what utter tosh. My kids school is brand new (as are all the HIgh Schools around this region), the facilities excellent, nice pupils and they get half the bloody year off and if they dont like it there are plenty other jobs in this age of record employment

Every advert for teaching and every teacher clearly states that IT IS A REWARDING JOB

Its not Grange Hill anymore :shrug:

I'm not saying it's as bad as retail or other minimum wage slog but the realistic upper salary cap is around £35k and the prospects for development beyond a senior classroom role are low. It's never going to attract the upper levels of academic talent because the pay and prospects are quite simply better and more achievable elsewhere. The profession attracts A FEW who have a genuine passion for education - those teachers certainly do exist - but is it the majority of teachers? I highly doubt it.

[Crimson Dynamo]

I'm not saying it's as bad as retail or other minimum wage slog but the realistic upper salary cap is around £35k and the prospects for development beyond a senior classroom role are low. It's simply never going to attract the upper levels of academic talent because the pay and prospects are quite simply better and more achievable elsewhere. The profession attracts A FEW who simply have a genuine passion for education - those teachers certainly do exist - but is it the majority of teachers? I highly doubt it.

agree the real talent goes into the private sector but who wouldn't for extra money?


also totally agree with your main post explaining the whole semantic issue problemo

If the teacher had been more clued up he could have turned it into a great learning experience for the whole class

[Cherie]

agree the real talent goes into the private sector but who wouldn't for extra money?


also totally agree with your main post explaining the whole semantic issue problemo

If the teacher had been more clued up he could have turned it into a great learning experience for the whole class

exactly, why would you kick a kid out just for having an alternative view, his job is to educate him, he was kicked out because the teacher didn't have a clue how to respond...apart from errr 'inclusion'

[bots]

Did nobody spot the immense irony. "You can't voice your opinions here, we are inclusive" :joker:

[Niamh.]

This is indeed the issue but it's worth pointing out that the term "gender" has a specific origin and definition and the terms "gender" and "sex" are by definition not interchangeable. Notable because if they WERE interchangeable, the term "gender" would never have been required in the first place. Yes many people (mistakenly) believe that they mean the same thing. They don't. Sex is a biological term and there are two sexes; that is scientific fact. Gender is a sociological term not a biological term and gender is a sliding scale... that's just what it is and what it means.

If we're coming down to personal opinion, the accurate opinion of someone who is critical of that scale, would be that the sociological concept of gender is flawed or false in its entirety.

The statement that there "are only two genders" is false, by definition, and not open to interpretation... there are either a multitude, or it doesn't exist and there are none. There are not "two". Full stop.

So there are several issues here. One being that the pupil actually is both A) factually incorrect and B) over-confident in his reasons for being correct...

BUT yes, also, the teacher himself is blatantly totally unclear on this and is waving his authority wand because he doesn't actually know how to academically address the issue (by explaining the difference between the scientific / biological definition of sex, the sociological concept of gender, and the differences between the two) because HE doesn't understand it either.

So... meh. The kid is incorrect but it's also a piss-poor example of effective teaching, especially because the teacher is clearly on the verge of losing his cool when (from what's in the video) there's no reason to do so, and his approach is actually doing nothing but cementing this belief rather than helping a young mind to engage in some less-rigid thinking.

But what can you really expect in a high school teaching environment? Crap working conditions, crap pay, low prospects, little reward. It's not attracting the best and brightest and it won't - ever - until our governments realise that it is the most important thing that we should be spending on. :shrug:

So basically you agree with Vicky that gender basically means personality type then?

[Niamh.]

Did nobody spot the immense irony. "You can't voice your opinions here, we are inclusive" :joker:

Exactly, there's clearly huge confusion over this topic but it seems like we're not allowed to talk about it, you're just shut down and that's it

[user104658]

So basically you agree with Vicky that gender basically means personality type then?

No, that would be a gargantuan over-simplification. There are entire Masters degrees in gender psychology.

[Niamh.]

No, that would be a gargantuan over-simplification. There are entire Masters degrees in gender psychology.

So unless people have a masters degree they're never going to understand what gender is?

[sleleen]

There are two SEXES, there are lots and lots of genders. Get your facts right!

[user104658]

So unless people have a masters degree they're never going to understand what gender is?

Obviously they're never going to understand it on the same level as someone who has a masters degree... but there's a pretty huge gap between;

"pfft gender is just a personality type" and "5-years of in depth full time study"


It's like saying the only two options for an understanding of linguistics is "It's words n stuff" vs "Multi-linguist with a PhD". It's obviously possible to have a basic understanding of something, even quite an in-depth grasp of something, without ignoring the fact that it's multi layered and hugely complex?

[Liam-]

But why was the kid filming? I reckon he had said something before he got his phone to record that made the situation escalate, I wonder what it was :think:

[Crimson Dynamo]

But why was the kid filming? I reckon he had said something before he got his phone to record that made the situation escalate, I wonder what it was :think:

he got removed from class into another area where the debate continued

[user104658]

But why was the kid filming? I reckon he had said something before he got his phone to record that made the situation escalate, I wonder what it was :think:

The recording is only after being kicked out of the class, so obviously he started filming to catch how the teacher would (or wouldn't) be able to justify removing him. I guess the important thing to remember there though is that only one of the two of them know it's being recorded and is moderating themself with that in mind. We don't know what his wording / tone was like in the classroom before he started recording. So while he makes it sound like it was a reasonable debate in the recording, it's feasible that he was being obviously flippant / insensitive about gender issues before the camera was rolling.

[Niamh.]

Obviously they're never going to understand it on the same level as someone who has a masters degree... but there's a pretty huge gap between;

"pfft gender is just a personality type" and "5-years of in depth full time study"


It's like saying the only two options for an understanding of linguistics is "It's words n stuff" vs "Multi-linguist with a PhD". It's obviously possible to have a basic understanding of something, even quite an in-depth grasp of something, without ignoring the fact that it's multi layered and hugely complex?

Ok but tell me what differentiates certain genders from others then, can you give me examples? Like I'm not a doctor or a biologist but I have a pretty clear understanding about what Sex is and what the differences between them are. I'm really struggling to get what is different between genders other than personality types/likes and dislikes etc.

[Elliot]

there are two sexes and not one person will say otherwise, gender is very different tho and science is on the side of people that contest there aren't just 2 genders

[Liam-]

The recording is only after being kicked out of the class, so obviously he started filming to catch how the teacher would (or wouldn't) be able to justify removing him. I guess the important thing to remember there though is that only one of the two of them know it's being recorded and is moderating themself with that in mind. We don't know what his wording / tone was like in the classroom before he started recording. So while he makes it sound like it was a reasonable debate in the recording, it's feasible that he was being obviously flippant / insensitive about gender issues before the camera was rolling.

I think that’s a more likely story than he was kicked out for having an opinion, he was probably being a little **** and causing trouble during a sensitive lesson, got kicked out but decided to try and make himself look like a victim of ‘the authority’ who was having his voice silenced, imo anyway

[Matthew.]

The video says that he got chucked out of class for arguing with the teacher

[Ammi]

The recording is only after being kicked out of the class, so obviously he started filming to catch how the teacher would (or wouldn't) be able to justify removing him. I guess the important thing to remember there though is that only one of the two of them know it's being recorded and is moderating themself with that in mind. We don't know what his wording / tone was like in the classroom before he started recording. So while he makes it sound like it was a reasonable debate in the recording, it's feasible that he was being obviously flippant / insensitive about gender issues before the camera was rolling.

...he could have also been targeting/specific of an individual or individual pupils...hence ‘this is an inclusive school’ type comments...which is why it’s impossible to say whether he was ‘kicked out for saying ************’ when we don’t know what ************ actually is...

[Ammi]

I think that’s a more likely story than he was kicked out for having an opinion, he was probably being a little **** and causing trouble during a sensitive lesson, got kicked out but decided to try and make himself look like a victim of ‘the authority’ who was having his voice silenced, imo anyway

...he could have been mocking../..ridiculing another or other students...

[Crimson Dynamo]

It sounded like a teacher doing a topic he dislikes, wanting to get through it and not wanting to debate out a topic he could care less about. The lad was even tempered and calm, the teacher was angry and not very nice

[Niamh.]

It sounded like a teacher doing a topic he dislikes, wanting to get through it and not wanting to debate out a topic he could care less about. The lad was even tempered and calm, the teacher was angry and not very nice

Seriously? :nono:

[Ammi]

..I guess it’s easy to be even tempered and calm when you know you’re recording yourself ..:laugh:..

[Liam-]

...he could have been mocking../..ridiculing another or other students...

Exactly! Seems like it could be another case of a troublemaker taking advantage of the current social climate and arguments to me

[Crimson Dynamo]

Seriously? :nono:

yes his language was "this is the syllabus and its this opinion or nowt" sort of saying "im told to tell you this opinion and just bloody well listen so i can tick a box and move on"

[Niamh.]

yes his language was "this is the syllabus and its this opinion or nowt" sort of saying "im told to tell you this opinion and just bloody well listen so i can tick a box and move on"

Could care less?

[arista]

Murray is a Scottish Trouble maker

[bots]

yes his language was "this is the syllabus and its this opinion or nowt" sort of saying "im told to tell you this opinion and just bloody well listen so i can tick a box and move on"

I think Neem was referring to your americanised use of could rather than the traditional couldn't

[arista]

But why was the kid filming? I reckon he had said something before he got his phone to record that made the situation escalate, I wonder what it was :think:


He wants to a Job
in the Media.

[Crimson Dynamo]

Could care less?

yes i am suggesting he thinks its all bolloxio and in the old days he would not have to bother with such stuff, that the teacher thinks its all PC gorn mad stuff

he may not think that but to me that is how it comes across and the lad probably knows this and is pulling his chain for some giggles to a degree

[Crimson Dynamo]

I think Neem was referring to your americanised use of could rather than the traditional couldn't

ah yes I am using the Americanised term, welp:hehe:

[Ammi]

Exactly! Seems like it could be another case of a troublemaker taking advantage of the current social climate and arguments to me

...It’s that ‘everyone is entitled to their opinion’ thing really when the opinion...(..if it was a prejudiced opinion for instance..)...wouldn’t come without consequences within the school rules and social acceptability...’his opinion’ is what he kept saying but we don’t know why the tutor found it unacceptable and the consequence was him being removed from class...which could have been for very good reason...

[Niamh.]

I think Neem was referring to your americanised use of could rather than the traditional couldn't

Thank you BOTS :laugh:

[Ammi]

...I don’t think the tutor had great command of the situation though...but we don’t know if any aggression/hostility was previously shown either...

[Crimson Dynamo]

if the teacher had simply known that the pupil meant Sex and that Sex and gender are two separate things none of this happens

teachers fault

[Cherie]

Did nobody spot the immense irony. "You can't voice your opinions here, we are inclusive" :joker:

:joker:

[Beso]

I wonder what bryan did to be on the teachers mind.

[GoldHeart]

But there is only 2 genders? We are taught that at school in science lessons. Your either born a male or born a female its up to people if they change sex but still it's two genders?!

Exactly! There's always just been 2 genders :facepalm: . But now we must go against biology & science just because some people don't want to identify as male or female .

I honesty think this whole non binary thing has gone too far ,and this teacher is an Idiot desperate to please the "latest trend" . it's the bandwagon of extreme eggshell culture scared to offend !.

I can't even call it PC gone mad because it's nonsensical the whole thing :crazy:

[Tom4784]

Without proper context, the video has little worth.

I generally believe there are two genders, if someone who is born a male comes to the conclusion that they are a female then I'll simply consider them as such when they transition and vice versa. I'll always refer to people by their preferred pronouns though since that's basic decency.

When it comes to gender neutrality, I believe the idea of it being it's own gender goes against the point of being gender neutral. If you are gender neutral then you are simply choosing to ignore gender norms in society and all the more power to you for doing so.

[Niamh.]

Without proper context, the video has little worth.

I generally believe there are two genders, if someone who is born a male comes to the conclusion that they are a female then I'll simply consider them as such when they transition and vice versa. I'll always refer to people by their preferred pronouns though since that's basic decency.

When it comes to gender neutrality, I believe the idea of it being it's own gender goes against the point of being gender neutral. If you are gender neutral then you are simply choosing to ignore gender norms in society and all the more power to you for doing so.

Yes exactly, this is a one of my biggest problems with it, that we (especially as a woman) have spent such a long time, looking to be treated equally and to break down stereotypes only for them seemingly be back up and running and forced upon us again

[Liam-]

Without proper context, the video has little worth.

I generally believe there are two genders, if someone who is born a male comes to the conclusion that they are a female then I'll simply consider them as such when they transition and vice versa. I'll always refer to people by their preferred pronouns though since that's basic decency.

When it comes to gender neutrality, I believe the idea of it being it's own gender goes against the point of being gender neutral. If you are gender neutral then you are simply choosing to ignore gender norms in society and all the more power to you for doing so.

Nail, head.

[Oliver_W]

There is actually one gender - our lord and saviour, Jesus Christ.

[Cherie]

on a separate issue, I think filming without someones consent as in this case should be crime

[Niamh.]

on a separate issue, I think filming without someones consent as in this case should be crime

Yeah me too. Is this in a school or university btw? In my kids school, a phone would be taken off them if they tried to do that, phones have to be kept in their lockers

[Crimson Dynamo]

on a separate issue, I think filming without someones consent as in this case should be crime

yes that aspect is entirely unacceptable

[Cherie]

Yeah me too. Is this in a school or university btw? In my kids school, a phone would be taken off them if they tried to do that, phones have to be kept in their lockers

I would say a secondary school, I don't think you would be kicked out of a lecture in Uni... I am surprised he had a phone, they are generally not allowed in the classroom, but then this is Scotland a law unto itself :hee:

[Niamh.]

I would say a secondary school, I don't think you would be kicked out of a lecture in Uni... I am surprised he had a phone, they are generally not allowed in the classroom, but then this is Scotland a law unto itself :hee:

You never know when it comes to this subject :skull:

[Crimson Dynamo]

Scottish HS and you can have as many phones as you want in class


:skull:

[Jessica.]

I think the teacher handled himself really well. Fair play to him. What a disrespectful young man that kid was.

[Cherie]

Scottish HS and you can have as many phones as you want in class


:skull:

:skull:

[user104658]

It's not illegal to record a conversation between individuals in a public place where there is no expectation of privacy. That would generally apply to a school, or even a workplace, although obviously workplaces can have separate clauses in the contract of employment regarding privacy and confidentiality (but it still wouldn't be illegal, just gross misconduct).

You can't record someone in a place where privacy is expected (like a toilet or changing area) and you can't record someone in their home. You might face civil consequences (get sued) if what you record and share with the public puts someone's reputation at risk.

Tl;Dr don't say anything controversial in a conversation with anyone unless you're happy with the risk of it being recorded and shared because no, it's not illegal to do so.

[Cherie]

It's not illegal to record a conversation between individuals in a public place where there is no expectation of privacy. That would generally apply to a school, or even a workplace, although obviously workplaces can have separate clauses in the contract of employment regarding privacy and confidentiality (but it still wouldn't be illegal, just gross misconduct).

You can't record someone in a place where privacy is expected (like a toilet or changing area) and you can't record someone in their home. You might face civil consequences (get sued) if what you record and share with the public puts someone's reputation at risk.

Tl;Dr don't say anything controversial in a conversation with anyone unless you're happy with the risk of it being recorded and shared because no, it's not illegal to do so.


it should be though, I mean I cant share or hold someones email without their consent but I can film them, upload it online and make their lives a misery, there is something wrong with that

[user104658]

it should be though, I mean I cant share or hold someones email without their consent but I can film them, upload it online and make their lives a misery, there is something wrong with thatYou can personally do what you want with someone's email address as an individual, if it was given to you AS an individual. GDPR regs / freedom of information requests etc. only apply to business and official use (whether that's a sole trader, a big company or a government) not personal individuals. For example if we ask James to provide us copies of anything that Niamh and Vicky has said about us in Tibb towers he legally has to do that... But if Niamh and Vicky want to know what's been said about them by us privately off-site they're outta luck; we can just say no.

[Beso]

In my day that teacher would have been thumped.

[Cherie]

You can personally do what you want with someone's email address as an individual, if it was given to you AS an individual. GDPR regs / freedom of information requests etc. only apply to business and official use (whether that's a sole trader, a big company or a government) not personal individuals. For example if we ask James to provide us copies of anything that Niamh and Vicky has said about us in Tibb towers he legally has to do that... But if Niamh and Vicky want to know what's been said about them by us privately off-site they're outta luck; we can just say no.

I meant at work....I cant share, and that teacher was at work so....

[Josy]

You can personally do what you want with someone's email address as an individual, if it was given to you AS an individual. GDPR regs / freedom of information requests etc. only apply to business and official use (whether that's a sole trader, a big company or a government) not personal individuals. For example if we ask James to provide us copies of anything that Niamh and Vicky has said about us in Tibb towers he legally has to do that... But if Niamh and Vicky want to know what's been said about them by us privately off-site they're outta luck; we can just say no.

James would only need to release that sort information if requested by authorities or a legal representative, it's not public.

Just for example, ex bb housemates sometimes send emails asking for threads to be removed from the forum, we only have to legally do that if the request comes from thier lawyers unless it contains information that can identify them such as addresses etc.

[Withano]

The teacher was thick and couldn’t hold an argument. But the boy was wrong and arrogant and shouldn’t be in the class.

[Livia]

XX and XY

That is all.

[user104658]

XX and XY

That is all.

Only if you don't know what the word means, and mistakenly think it means the same thing as "sex". Gender has nothing to do with chromosomes. That's not a "woke statement" or "being PC" or anything of the sort; it's a simple statement of the historical origin and usage of the word.

The word gender has been used since the 14th century as a grammatical term, referring to classes of noun designated as masculine, feminine, or neuter in some languages. The sense denoting biological sex has also been used since the 14th century, but this did not become common until the mid 20th century. Although the words gender and sex are often used interchangeably, they have slightly different connotations; sex tends to refer to biological differences, while gender more often refers to cultural and social differences and sometimes encompasses a broader range of identities than the binary of male and female.

Gender is not a biological term. It never has been, and never will be, no matter how hard people wish it was.

[Alf]

Murray has the truth on his side.

Murray is a brave legend, to challenge the authoritarian Marxists.

I name him 'Braveheart'