Panorama: Labour and Anti-Semitism

[MTVN]

Anyone catch the Panorama last night? Here's a short 8 minute version showing how much anti-Semitism has rooted itself in the party and how much people's hands were tied by senior members of Corbyns team who were trying to investigate it

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Senior Labour figures have expressed anger and alarm over claims some of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies tried to interfere in disciplinary processes involving allegations of anti-Semitism.

Deputy leader Tom Watson said there was a "permissive culture" of anti-Semitism in the party and Mr Corbyn was "the only one" to fix it.

But Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis said the leadership was "directly complicit".

Labour has insisted the claims made in Wednesday's Panorama were inaccurate.

They denied any interference and said the former staff who had spoken to the programme were "disaffected".

Shadow chancellor John McDonnell said the "serious charges" were being "hotly contested", and the process of dealing with complaints in the party had been "improved dramatically".

But Mr Watson said he "deplored the statement made" by the party and to dismiss the testimony of the staff - some of whom had signed non-disclosure agreements (NDAs) when they left - was "wrong".

Labour's disputes team is supposed to operate independently from the party's political structures, including the leader's office.

BBC Panorama spoke to former party officials, who alleged they had to deal with a huge increase in anti-Semitism complaints since Mr Corbyn became Labour leader in 2015.

Eight former officials who worked in the team and dealt with anti-Semitism cases claimed to the BBC that:

The leader's office was "angry and obstructive" when it came to the issue

Officials brought in by the party's general secretary, Jennie Formby, "overruled" some of their disciplinary decisions and "downgraded" punishments to a "slap on the wrist"

Seumas Milne, one of Mr Corbyn's closest aides, laughed when advised by a long-serving party official about what Mr Corbyn should do to tackle anti-Semitism in the party

On one occasion, Mr Corbyn's office ordered batches of anti-Semitism complaints to be brought to his Commons office for processing by his aides

Full article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48946070

[Liam-]

There’s been quite a few things that have come out to debunk the show, chopped emails to misrepresent, the director is a life long labour hater, most of the incindents recorded, were reported before Corbyn even became leader and were sat on until he took charge, it was a one sided smearfest.

[Kazanne]

And here come the excuses:laugh:

[Liam-]

And here come the excuses:laugh:

*facts

I wonder when the BBC will commission a Panorama on the rife islamophobia in the Tory party?

[Kazanne]

*facts

I wonder when the BBC will commission a Panorama on the rife islamophobia in the Tory party?

It will happen at some point I guess,but this is about the labour party:hee:

[Kizzy]

I didn't watch it, I will do soon. Tom Watson seems to be doing all he can to bring down the Labour party I know that.

[MTVN]

There’s been quite a few things that have come out to debunk the show, chopped emails to misrepresent, the director is a life long labour hater, most of the incindents recorded, were reported before Corbyn even became leader and were sat on until he took charge, it was a one sided smearfest.

Corbyn heaped praise on the director a few years ago

Sounds more like the smearfest is against those who dared speak out in the program, a lot of which I've noticed has already crept into casual anti-Semitism with the contributors accused of being part of the 'Israeli lobby' and one of the guys shamed for the crime of having been involved with Labour Friends of Israel.

My two questions would be: what is the BBC's interest in producing such a biased and manipulated program? And does that stuff above outweigh all the other compelling evidence and testimonies that the program featured?

[bots]

Panorama generally get their investigations correct, and Tom Watson is trying to save the labour party. I've never agreed with his politics, but his intentions with regard to antisemitism are 100% well intentioned. Pity the same can't be said about Corbyn.

[MTVN]

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[arista]

Terrible Docu
full of old footage.

You learn more on LBC Live now

[joeysteele]

It was going over a lot of old ground.
As arista indicated.

I never make excuses for anyone, as a Labour party member and supporter
I am really annoyed at this issue in the Labour party.
One of the people in the documentary I hold high respect for.
I wouldn't doubt his word at all.

However, I don't think this documentary revealed much more than has been said over the last 2 years.

Of course the usual Labour bashers will dive in while ignoring the mess in their own Party's garden.

It is a disgrace that the Labour party even has this issue which is seemingly taking ages to eradicate.
Which it should be.
In fact should have been so now.

There is thankfully, a fully independent investigation going on in the Labour party now and the organisation doing that will I hope leave no stones unturned.
Then present their findings and instructions if needed to clear this awful mess up.

Is the leader to be held responsible.
Is Mrs May responsible for the Islamophobia in her Party, NO.

I have many reservations about Corbyn, I make no secret he was not my choice for leader.
I'd even add I'd rather another leader now too.

Do I really believe he's anti semitic,
No
Do I really believe the Labour party is rife with antisemitism, NO

However anyone holding any genuine antisemitic views should be out the party.
No its or buts.
In my view.

I will wait and take the findings of this independent investigation.
That is now the thing I've hoped for.
Anyone or organisation complained about, in my view should never investigate themselves.
So I am happier and confident that this independent investigation will be the better way.

I think myself an antisemitic problem in Labour will be identified but I'd doubt, the often vast over exaggerations of the haters of the left and Labour will be proven right in their rubbing of hands glee, of their over exaggerations against Labour.
Maybe too, even as to the present leader.

[Livia]

There is no amount of evidence that would be enough to convince the Corbyn supporters. They'll all be making excuses and using "yeah, but whataboutthetories…"

The denials about Labour's anti-Semitism, the hatred for Jews within the party, the excusing of anti-Semitic language... it's all horribly familiar. But at least people are becoming more aware of it now.

[Livia]

It was going over a lot of old ground.
As arista indicated.

I never make excuses for anyone, as a Labour party member and supporter
I am really annoyed at this issue in the Labour party.
One of the people in the documentary I hold high respect for.
I wouldn't doubt his word at all.

However, I don't think this documentary revealed much more than has been said over the last 2 years.

Of course the usual Labour bashers will dive in while ignoring the mess in their own Party's garden.

It is a disgrace that the Labour party even has this issue which is seemingly taking ages to eradicate.
Which it should be.
In fact should have been so now.

There is thankfully, a fully independent investigation going on in the Labour party now and the organisation doing that will I hope leave no stones unturned.
Then present their findings and instructions if needed to clear this awful mess up.

Is the leader to be held responsible.
Is Mrs May responsible for the Islamophobia in her Party, NO.

I have many reservations about Corbyn, I make no secret he was not my choice for leader.
I'd even add I'd rather another leader now too.

Do I really believe he's anti semitic,
No
Do I really believe the Labour party is rife with antisemitism, NO

However anyone holding any genuine antisemitic views should be out the party.
No its or buts.
In my view.

I will wait and take the findings of this independent investigation.
That is now the thing I've hoped for.
Anyone or organisation complained about, in my view should never investigate themselves.
So I am happier and confident that this independent investigation will be the better way.

I think myself an antisemitic problem in Labour will be identified but I'd doubt, the often vast over exaggerations of the haters of the left and Labour will be proven right in their rubbing of hands glee, of their over exaggerations against Labour.
Maybe too, even as to the present leader.



Well that's quite a change of tack there joey. Haters of the left will be rubbing their hands in glee? You think it's all an exaggeration now? All those people in that clip were lying? Yes, let's wait for the independent investigation, and what a shame that was needed.

Lastly, why the reference to the Tories and the alleged Islamophobia? Is it now the thinking that two wrongs make a right?

[Oliver_W]

There is no amount of evidence that would be enough to convince the Corbyn supporters. They'll all be making excuses and using "yeah, but whataboutthetories…"

The denials about Labour's anti-Semitism, the hatred for Jews within the party, the excusing of anti-Semitic language... it's all horribly familiar. But at least people are becoming more aware of it now.

All of this pales in comparison to that time a Tory backbencher tweeted something mean about islam :(

[joeysteele]

There is no amount of evidence that would be enough to convince the Corbyn supporters. They'll all be making excuses and using "yeah, but whataboutthetories…"

The denials about Labour's anti-Semitism, the hatred for Jews within the party, the excusing of anti-Semitic language... it's all horribly familiar. But at least people are becoming more aware of it now.

Sorry but incorrect.
A problem yes, not rife in the party.

I operate in elections and meetings alongside Jewish members of the Party.
Who don't see the party as a whole as you appear to.

Also, I'm no Corbyn apologist, I don't care for him at all.
I'd rather another leader.

Frankly, I have always been an anti Mrs May individual so accept my intense dislike of her would cloud my judgement.

I think the same applies to those who without any real evidence, fire their constant hate of Corbyn too.

Also, please don't try to say.
Had this been a thread on say Islamaphobia in the Conservatives.
That the Labour haters would not be jumping in with applauding of each other, saying what about antisemitism in Labour.

Politics on both sides, left and right have major issues on rights and prejudices.
Politics is, because of weak leadership of all established Parties, in the worst state it's maybe ever been in for centuries.
Soon to get likely even worse too as to division and prejudice.

[Livia]

Sorry but incorrect.
A problem yes, not rife in the party.

I operate in elections and meetings alongside Jewish members of the Party.
Who don't see the party as a whole as you appear to.

Also, I'm no Corbyn apologist, I don't care for him at all.
I'd rather another leader.

Frankly, I have always been an anti Mrs May individual so accept my intense dislike of her would cloud my judgement.

I think the same applies to those who without any real evidence, fire their constant hate of Corbyn too.

Also, please don't try to say.
Had this been a thread on say Islamaphobia in the Conservatives.
That the Labour haters would not be jumping in with applauding of each other, saying what about antisemitism in Labour.

Politics on both sides, left and right have major issues on rights and prejudices.
Politics is, because of weak leadership of all established Parties, in the worst state it's maybe ever been in for centuries.
Soon to get likely even worse too as to division and prejudice.

There is no talking to you about this now joey. A couple of weeks ago maybe, not now though.

I'd be interested to hear what all these Jews you work with have to say about it. Not to you.... to me.

Forget Labour haters. Forget Corbyn haters. Anti-Semitism is a problem shaming your party, and the constant denial make you all look like anti-Semites, or at least enablers of anti-Semitics.

[Livia]

All of this pales in comparison to that time a Tory backbencher tweeted something mean about islam :(

Yeah, that'll be it.

Labour supporters have the cheek to complain about people being racist when their own anti-Semitism shames them, and will continue to shame them until someone does something about it.

[Liam-]

The way the reports of anti-semitism have been handled, could have been much better, but calling the leader and every member of said party antisemetic, without any actual proof of such, is dangerous and smear 101.

Like I’ve said, I look forward to the day that the BBC issue an investigation into the islamaphobia in the Tory party, or the corrupt money of the Brexit party, but I can’t see it happening.

[smudgie]

Such a shame.
Not about left versus right, it’s the Labour Party that are bringing it to our attention, and making most of the claims.
Absolute disgrace that needs sorting out, sackings should be in the offing.:fist:

[bots]

It's just standard deflection when saying what about this that or the other.

See if I was in a responsible position in an organisation being investigated, I would be concerned to say the least if there was even 1 grain of truth in the documentary ... but no ... discredit the people making the observations is the order of the day.

As a non jewish person, I have no idea what these people are experiencing, but the fact remains, there is much to much evidence associated with Corbyn and the people he surrounds himself with already that they have a big problem.

Behaviour in a political party is enabled by its leadership, that's a fact and I don't have a big enough allegiance with any political party to call out an issue when I see one.

[joeysteele]

There is no talking to you about this now joey. A couple of weeks ago maybe, not now though.

I'd be interested to hear what all these Jews you work with have to say about it. Not to you.... to me.

Forget Labour haters. Forget Corbyn haters. Anti-Semitism is a problem shaming your party, and the constant denial make you all look like anti-Semites, or at least enablers of anti-Semitics.


Actually wrong again.

I have always expressed disgust at any proven antisemitism in the Labour party.
It isn't just in the Labour party however.

As to my Labour Jewish associates, they aren't members of tibb so hardly can say it to you.

However it's a fact, there are Jewish members of the Party who don't in any shape or form,think as you do on the Labour Party and most on the left.

As for not believing those accounts in this documentary.
You again do me a disservice yet again.

I state clearly in my post there was someone there I would not doubt the word of.
I have spoken to him and know his word would be valid all ways.

So keep being selective.
Yes. It is shameful Labour is in this antisemitic mess.
However, let's see what the fully independent organisation's investigation brings up.

I have s feeling those with over exaggerations of how rife it is in the Party, may be disappointed somewhat when it's concluded.

Antisemitism should not be in any Party.
I don't think anyone even denies Labour has a problem with it either.

This too also actually is s gross insult to Labour members and supporters.
When you state publicly, anyone questioning how big the problem is, or if it exists, makes us all look like antisemites.

That may be your view of the Labour Party and its members but it's way off the mark and insulting too.

[Kizzy]

There is no talking to you about this now joey. A couple of weeks ago maybe, not now though.

I'd be interested to hear what all these Jews you work with have to say about it. Not to you.... to me.

Forget Labour haters. Forget Corbyn haters. Anti-Semitism is a problem shaming your party, and the constant denial make you all look like anti-Semites, or at least enablers of anti-Semitics.

Guilty until proven innocent, that's not how is goes is it?
There is support for Labour and Corbyn among prominent Jewish figures and a specific group within the party itself. Are they too Anti-Semites?

[Tom4784]

Excise the rot from the party and rebuild it.

[Vicky.]

Corbyn heaped praise on the director a few years ago

Sounds more like the smearfest is against those who dared speak out in the program, a lot of which I've noticed has already crept into casual anti-Semitism with the contributors accused of being part of the 'Israeli lobby' and one of the guys shamed for the crime of having been involved with Labour Friends of Israel.

My two questions would be: what is the BBC's interest in producing such a biased and manipulated program? And does that stuff above outweigh all the other compelling evidence and testimonies that the program featured?

Yup, thats usually the way it goes. I don't really get why Panorama would suddenly go from investagtive work, to purposely smearing Labour fo the sake of it tbh.

[Vicky.]

The way the reports of anti-semitism have been handled, could have been much better, but calling the leader and every member of said party antisemetic, without any actual proof of such, is dangerous and smear 101.
I don't think anyone thinks every member is anti-Semitic. This reply is a bit...'not all men' when people talk about the men who do rape and behave atrociously towards women. Wails of 'not all X are like that!' are both pointless and annoying. Pointless as, when discussing the bad people, the bad people are being discussed. The subject does not need to change into 'most X are nice'..annoying because its constant.

Its a fairly widespread problem within the party it seems. But, when people talk about it that does not mean they think all labour members are bigoted, that would be insane!

Also I do think, people expect a bit much of Labour sometimes. Like, I don't really get what can be done about random members being antisemitic, besides chucking them out when their views are noted. They cannot control the behaviour of members beyond that. But I do think Corbyn could do much much more.

Like I’ve said, I look forward to the day that the BBC issue an investigation into the islamaphobia in the Tory party, or the corrupt money of the Brexit party, but I can’t see it happening.

Whataboutery tbh. I usually agree with your posts, or at least I find them to be fair on the whole. Here though..I despite whataboutery tbh, and don't really see the point in it when dicussing a program that delves into a known problem in the Labour party. Of course other parties have their own issues..but if there WAS a thread about a program into Islamophobia in the Tory party, the 'what about Labour having a problem with antisemitism' would be derided, as whataboutery tbh.

[Liam-]

I don't think anyone thinks every member is anti-Semitic. This reply is a bit...'not all men' when people talk about the men who do rape and behave atrociously towards women. Wails of 'not all X are like that!' are both pointless and annoying. Pointless as, when discussing the bad people, the bad people are being discussed. The subject does not need to change into 'most X are nice'..annoying because its constant.

Its a fairly widespread problem within the party it seems. But, when people talk about it that does not mean they think all labour members are bigoted, that would be insane!

Also I do think, people expect a bit much of Labour sometimes. Like, I don't really get what can be done about random members being antisemitic, besides chucking them out when their views are noted. They cannot control the behaviour of members beyond that. But I do think Corbyn could do much much more.

That’s the thing though, it’s not widespread, 0.08% of members have been accused of antisemitism, that’s still too many, but the notion that it’s a massive pandemic sweeping the party has been misrepresented, I presume purposefully.

So yes, I do believe that the entire party and it’s members are being accused when the press and people in general label Labour as ‘the party of anti-semites’

Whataboutery tbh. I usually agree with your posts, or at least I find them to be fair on the whole. Here though..I despite whataboutery tbh, and don't really see the point in it when dicussing a program that delves into a known problem in the Labour party. Of course other parties have their own issues..but if there WAS a thread about a program into Islamophobia in the Tory party, the 'what about Labour having a problem with antisemitism' would be derided, as whataboutery tbh.

It might be whataboutery, but to me, it’s deseved whataboutery, racism on all levels should be investigated obviously and it should be stamped out, but by the BBC refusing to investigate it in every party, it points out a clear political bias imo and that’s all my point was, it wasn’t deflection or denial

[bots]

That’s the thing though, it’s not widespread, 0.01% of members have been accused of antisemitism, that’s still too many, but the notion that it’s a massive pandemic sweeping the party has been misrepresented, I presume purposefully.

So yes, I do believe that the entire party and it’s members are being accused when the press and people in general label Labour as ‘the party of anti-semites’



I might be whataboutery, but to me, it’s deseved whataboutery, racism on all levels should be investigated obviously and it should be stamped out, but by the BBC refusing to investigate it in every party, it points out a clear political bias imo.


I don't think anyone is saying that every labour member is antisemitic, plenty within the labour party have acknowledged the problem and are trying to do something about it.

The problem is that Corbyn and his closest friends/advisers are in key positions with the party and they have enabled and empowered anti-jewish sentiment. That basically makes the party a "safe space" for them to voice their prejudices. It doesn't mean everyone will do it, just those that want to will and do.

For an organisation in trouble they sure aren't helping themselves by going on the attack, which they most definitely are.

[Vicky.]

Have the BBC actually refused to do a Panorama on Islamophobia or overspending on Brexit? Comes across as they have been asked to but have publically refused? Thats how its coming across.and if so, I understand the anger. If not then I don't really get what the issue is.

[Liam-]

Have the BBC actually refused to do a Panorama on Islamophobia or overspending on Brexit? Comes across as they have been asked to but have publically refused? Thats how its coming across.and if so, I understand the anger. If not then I don't really get what the issue is.

Journalists have come out and said that they’ve reported mass instances of racism through the Tory party, with documented proof but they show no interest, many articles have been written, again documenting historic and blatant racism and they still stay silent.

One example:

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[Vicky.]

Maybe one day..

Sorry I just kind of refuse to believe the BBC purposely made this program and left out all the stuff from 'the other side' as they purposely wanted to do a hatchet job on Labour. Its just..well what would be the point

[Livia]

Journalists have come out and said that they’ve reported mass instances of racism through the Tory party, with documented proof but they show no interest, many articles have been written, again documenting historic and blatant racism and they still stay silent.

One example:

1149543410346237953

That's all hearsay. But yes, I'd say there is a problem with Islamophobia in the Conservatives. And it should definitely be investigated and the culprits expelled, maybe even prosecuted if the evidence is strong enough. Of course, Labour needs to do the same with its anti-Semitism and Labour supporters need to stop trying to diminish what's happening.

[Oliver_W]

Journalists have come out and said that they’ve reported mass instances of racism through the Tory party, with documented proof but they show no interest, many articles have been written, again documenting historic and blatant racism and they still stay silent.

One example:

1149543410346237953

This article js about Tory members , not politicians. Th3 antisemitism things is about core politicians in Labour.

[Vicky.]

That's all hearsay. But yes, I'd say there is a problem with Islamophobia in the Conservatives. And it should definitely be investigated and the culprits expelled, maybe even prosecuted if the evidence is strong enough. Of course, Labour needs to do the same with its anti-Semitism and Labour supporters need to stop trying to diminish what's happening.

I'd say thats again, a cross party issue tbh. But it does seem more prevalant in the Tories and right wing parties. Like how anti-semitism seems to be more common in the left wing.

Misogyny is rife within the Labour party also, seems to be not only acceptable, but actively applauded from some quarters.

I think that really..on the whole, any party is going to have members with sme bigoted views and theres nothing the party can do about it..only way they could make it so members were not bigoted, is to stop taking members at all!

[Livia]

Maybe one day..

Sorry I just kind of refuse to believe the BBC purposely made this program and left out all the stuff from 'the other side' as they purposely wanted to do a hatchet job on Labour. Its just..well what would be the point

The BBC is the Left's biggest supporter, I have to assume something's deeply wrong if they're airing a show about Anti-Semitism in its ranks . And Labour is currently being investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. And rightly so. Supporters of Corbyn were very happy with Chakrabati's ridiculous "inquiry", where the verdict was, nothing to see here, folks. Of course she got to be a Baroness on the strength of that. I hope when the EHRC have finished their investigation, if it does not match hers, she should be removed from the House of Lords.

[Livia]

I don't think anyone is saying that every labour member is antisemitic, plenty within the labour party have acknowledged the problem and are trying to do something about it.

The problem is that Corbyn and his closest friends/advisers are in key positions with the party and they have enabled and empowered anti-jewish sentiment. That basically makes the party a "safe space" for them to voice their prejudices. It doesn't mean everyone will do it, just those that want to will and do.

For an organisation in trouble they sure aren't helping themselves by going on the attack, which they most definitely are.

Great post, Bots.

[Vicky.]

The BBC is the Left's biggest supporter, I have to assume something's deeply wrong if they're airing a show about Anti-Semitism in its ranks . And Labour is currently being investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission. And rightly so. Supporters of Corbyn were very happy with Chakrabati's ridiculous "inquiry", where the verdict was, nothing to see here, folks. Of course she got to be a Baroness on the strength of that. I hope when the EHRC have finished their investigation, if it does not match hers, she should be removed from the House of Lords.

Yeah, that was ridiculous IMO, and that she was 'promoted' soon after..is extremely supsicious at the last

[Oliver_W]

Journalists have come out and said that they’ve reported mass instances of racism through the Tory party, with documented proof but they show no interest, many articles have been written, again documenting historic and blatant racism and they still stay silent.

One example:

1149543410346237953

From the article:
Recent polls conducted for Hope Not Hate by YouGov – which has a solid record when looking at party members – is horrifying. It found that 60% of Tory members believe Islam “is generally a threat to western civilisation”, with less than one in five dissenting; that 54% hold it to be “generally a threat to the British way of life”; and 43% do not want a Muslim as prime minister

Look at any country with high numbers of muslims and ask yourself if it's unreasonable to assume islam isn't beneficial for civilisations? The last stat is a bit iffy I guess, having a muslim PM would be fine if they didn't try to implement islamic law, which wouldn't pass through the Commons anyway.

[Northern Monkey]

I don't think anyone is saying that every labour member is antisemitic, plenty within the labour party have acknowledged the problem and are trying to do something about it.

The problem is that Corbyn and his closest friends/advisers are in key positions with the party and they have enabled and empowered anti-jewish sentiment. That basically makes the party a "safe space" for them to voice their prejudices. It doesn't mean everyone will do it, just those that want to will and do.

For an organisation in trouble they sure aren't helping themselves by going on the attack, which they most definitely are.

Yeah pretty much took the words out of my fingers.

I think every party will have racists in it.
And I definitely think that most labour members and MP’s are definitely not antisemitic.
I may even give Corbyn himself the benefit of doubt of just being blind to it.
But,It seems to be coming from the top and to be linked with the staunch anti Israel sentiment from the leaders and people who support them.
It’s the kind of politics he promotes and the people he attracts.Many of the hard lefty members who joined to get Corbyn into the top job.
Labour are getting all this focus on them because the top brass are attracting it and enabling it.
They are also constantly deflecting the problem and dismissing the people who speak out,Which makes them look worse.

[Twosugars]

My impression is that there are two things going on here
One, there's anti jewish sentiment among some members that need addressing
Two, theres a smear campaign against labour using this issue in order to undermine the party
The independent inquiry is a great idea. Hopefully it will address the first and neutralise the second.

[Kizzy]

My impression is that there are two things going on here
One, there's anti jewish sentiment among some members that need addressing
Two, theres a smear campaign against labour using this issue in order to undermine the party
The independent inquiry is a great idea. Hopefully it will address the first and neutralise the second.
I agree, there is a need for this to be independent now to remove the factional political element from the issue. The demands from Tom Watson to know what Jenny Formby included in her report to the ECHR... why, how is that not politicising the issue further? Of he could have helped with this in his capacity as deputy leader why has he not done so before now? It makes no sense for changes to be made and yet just scream from the sidelines it's not good enough! You are deputy leader Tom, how have you helped the party here at all?...

[Kizzy]

I don't think anyone is saying that every labour member is antisemitic, plenty within the labour party have acknowledged the problem and are trying to do something about it.

The problem is that Corbyn and his closest friends/advisers are in key positions with the party and they have enabled and empowered anti-jewish sentiment. That basically makes the party a "safe space" for them to voice their prejudices. It doesn't mean everyone will do it, just those that want to will and do.

For an organisation in trouble they sure aren't helping themselves by going on the attack, which they most definitely are.
They are defending themselves, what's wrong with that? If the reportage is out of context then they are within their rights to challenge the content produced in the programme. Again there is a problem but is this media spin proportional?
As you've highlighted it's being played out not as a Labour problem but a Corbyn problem.... why is that, one of the least predudiced of our modern day politicians is held accountable for rampant Anti-Semetism?

[Kizzy]

I'd say thats again, a cross party issue tbh. But it does seem more prevalant in the Tories and right wing parties. Like how anti-semitism seems to be more common in the left wing.

Misogyny is rife within the Labour party also, seems to be not only acceptable, but actively applauded from some quarters.

I think that really..on the whole, any party is going to have members with sme bigoted views and theres nothing the party can do about it..only way they could make it so members were not bigoted, is to stop taking members at all!

Where is the evidence that Anti-Semetism is more common in the left wing though,? That's not my experience, it's the ascending far right that has this problem.
Is misogyny purely a Labour issue... rife, applauded and accepted... never heard of that either.
How would s political parties survive without supportive members?

[Twosugars]

Where is the evidence that Anti-Semetism is more common in the left wing though,? That's not my experience, it's the ascending far right that has this problem.
Is misogyny purely a Labour issue... rife, applauded and accepted... never heard of that either.
How would s political parties survive without supportive members?

I was surprised at Vicky too. Issues like misogyny, antisemitism etc cut across the political spectrum.

[Vicky.]

Where is the evidence that Anti-Semetism is more common in the left wing though,? That's not my experience, it's the ascending far right that has this problem.
Is misogyny purely a Labour issue... rife, applauded and accepted... never heard of that either.
How would s political parties survive without supportive members?

Antisemitism, from my experience..seems to come more from the left than the right. And Corbyn has said some very questionable things too. Which does not help. I do think the papers overblow it a bit mind.

I didnt say misogyny was purely a Labour issue either. However, there are very big problems with regards to women with Labour in its current form. Misogyny is everywhere, but I do tend to see it more from blokes (oddly enough, usually with a beard?! Not sure why :laugh: ) in the Labour party, or who are left wing.

And yes, thats kind of my point about members. Labour cannot control what they do. So to basically stop people supporting so they can't be blamed for the supporters views, would also mean that..the Party is just gone.
I was surprised at Vicky too. Issues like misogyny, antisemitism etc cut across the political spectrum.

I did not claim otherwise..

[Twosugars]

Disagree it is more with the left

But anyway, what's the point in claiming either way?
Things like that should not be party political issues.

Atm its labour having to sort itself out. That's as far as party politics should go

[Nicky91]

what a difference between UK Labour and our dutch Labour party :o


ours has no anti-semitism at all


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wim_Kok

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joop_den_Uyl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Drees

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wouter_Bos

here some examples of politicians from our labour party who were pretty successful in our parliament, some bit controversial maybe

Den Uyl for example more was disliked for his support for Oil businesses, protesters made a song of that in dutch ''Den Uyl in Den Oil, Den Oil in Den Uyl''

Wouter Bos was disliked for his lacklustre attitude during our economical crisis which was near 2010 which lead to him stepping down from Labour, and we had the then mayor of amsterdam Job Cohen as his replacement and then Labour started to go downwards a bit, until now at the european elections this year where they had a huge majority over all the other party's


i do think Labour without Corbyn might do a lot better, someone less controversial, and more stable and views which suit the Labour party

[Beso]

Interesting to see a large spike in new labour members when corbyn came into power...I did wonder where all those skinheads from the 70s, too wise to tattoo a
German swastika onto thier foreheads had dissappeared to....now I know.

[Twosugars]

Interesting to see a large spike in new labour members when corbyn came into power...I did wonder where all those skinheads from the 70s, too wise to tattoo a
German swastika onto thier foreheads had dissappeared to....now I know.

No, they joined bnp, edl and tommy

[Beso]

No, they joined bnp, edl and tommy

I doubt that, imo the numbers joining and hate figures targeted just don't match up.:nono:

[Twosugars]

I doubt that, imo the numbers joining and hate figures targeted just don't match up.:nono:

No? I thought they didn't like muslims, Jews and gays too

[Beso]

No? I thought they didn't like muslims, Jews and gays too

Just Jews in the 70s if you were to scared to tattoo a German swastika on your head.

And the sudden spike in new members when corbyn and his anti semetic friends came into power only points one way for me, and that is that labours new membership is predominantly made up of dumb skinhead types having a mid life crisis.

[Kizzy]

Antisemitism, from my experience..seems to come more from the left than the right. And Corbyn has said some very questionable things too. Which does not help. I do think the papers overblow it a bit mind.

I didnt say misogyny was purely a Labour issue either. However, there are very big problems with regards to women with Labour in its current form. Misogyny is everywhere, but I do tend to see it more from blokes (oddly enough, usually with a beard?! Not sure why :laugh: ) in the Labour party, or who are left wing.

And yes, thats kind of my point about members. Labour cannot control what they do. So to basically stop people supporting so they can't be blamed for the supporters views, would also mean that..the Party is just gone.


I did not claim otherwise..

If you look at any statistic it really isn't a left leaning issue. I really don't know what your sources are that Labour is crawling with misogynists..
Are you really advocating disbanding a whole party due to 0.06% of the membership?

[Twosugars]

Just Jews in the 70s if you were to scared to tattoo a German swastika on your head.

And the sudden spike in new members when corbyn and his anti semetic friends came into power only points one way for me, and that is that labours new membership is predominantly made up of dumb skinhead types having a mid life crisis.

That's just nonsense, sorry.

[Underscore]

Labour are institutionally racist end of

[Oliver_W]

Labour are institutionally racist end of

Oh come on :laugh: I have my issues with current Labour but that's clearly not true.

[thesheriff443]

From the middle ground!.

Without doubt, there is, racism, sexism discrimination and corruption within all political parties within in the police within the army, in your place of work, pub, super market, basically it’s in every part of life.

You can pick a side but they are all the same just with different names.

[Vicky.]

If you look at any statistic it really isn't a left leaning issue. I really don't know what your sources are that Labour is crawling with misogynists..
Are you really advocating disbanding a whole party due to 0.06% of the membership?

:laugh: Oh dear. No I am not seriously advocating for that, it is basically what came to mind when trying to sort issues in my head. There IS no way to sort out the behaviour/views of members really, without stopping members joining fullstop, as obviously MPs cannot control the general public in that way..if anything, I was sticking up for Labour there, As people expect too much I think of political parties, you cannot mindcontrol someone just because they paid a fiver fee to join or whatever it is..its impossible. As such, you cannot blame Labour for there being some unsavoury characters in their ranks. Same as other parties tbh..

You could reasonably expect their MPs to not come out with questionable stuff. You cannot blame Corbyn for the behaviour of members. Put simply

Did not mean for that to be taken as a serious suggestion at all D:

Also..I have no sources for personal opinion/experience. Kind of thought that went without saying.

[bots]

What I find interesting is that I previously outlined that antisemitism is on the rise across europe. I was asked to provide evidence of this, which I did, and yet faced with those facts, no-one made any further comment .... go figure

The rise in antisemitism is pretty obvious within the labour party. Numerous examples have been highlighted of Corbyn displaying this behaviour and of the labour party executive condoning it. I find it abhorrent that people try and make excuses for it or try to deflect from it happening.

[Kazanne]

What I find interesting is that I previously outlined that antisemitism is on the rise across europe. I was asked to provide evidence of this, which I did, and yet faced with those facts, no-one made any further comment .... go figure

The rise in antisemitism is pretty obvious within the labour party. Numerous examples have been highlighted of Corbyn displaying this behaviour and of the labour party executive condoning it. I find it abhorrent that people try and make excuses for it or try to deflect from it happening.

:clap1::clap1:

[Livia]

What I find interesting is that I previously outlined that antisemitism is on the rise across europe. I was asked to provide evidence of this, which I did, and yet faced with those facts, no-one made any further comment .... go figure

The rise in antisemitism is pretty obvious within the labour party. Numerous examples have been highlighted of Corbyn displaying this behaviour and of the labour party executive condoning it. I find it abhorrent that people try and make excuses for it or try to deflect from it happening.

Great post. Attacks on Jews was up again last year, at a record high. If people don't think that's related to Labour's stance, then they should read more. And this from a Party who tell us constantly that not all Muslims are terrorists... but have a bit of a struggle understanding that not all Jews are Israeli.

[MTVN]

Oh come on :laugh: I have my issues with current Labour but that's clearly not true.

Luciana Berger thought it was true and she was on the receiving end of it as a Jewish MP. It's one of the main reasons she left the party

[Beso]

:laugh: Oh dear. No I am not seriously advocating for that, it is basically what came to mind when trying to sort issues in my head. There IS no way to sort out the behaviour/views of members really, without stopping members joining fullstop, as obviously MPs cannot control the general public in that way..if anything, I was sticking up for Labour there, As people expect too much I think of political parties, you cannot mindcontrol someone just because they paid a fiver fee to join or whatever it is..its impossible. As such, you cannot blame Labour for there being some unsavoury characters in their ranks. Same as other parties tbh..

You could reasonably expect their MPs to not come out with questionable stuff. You cannot blame Corbyn for the behaviour of members. Put simply

Did not mean for that to be taken as a serious suggestion at all D:

Also..I have no sources for personal opinion/experience. Kind of thought that went without saying.

£46.56 to join labour...the dearest of the 6 main parties..

[Livia]

£46.56 to join labour...the dearest of the 6 main parties..

Is that true? Wow.... that's a lot.

[Vicky.]

£46.56 to join labour...the dearest of the 6 main parties..

Is it really..I am sure I remember when the leadership vote was on, people complaining that all others had to do was pay a fiver to join, or something along those lines

I tend to learn something new each day, as he saying goes. This is the thing I have learnt, prof parm

[Beso]

Is that true? Wow.... that's a lot.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2015/jun/13/party-politics-cost-getting-involved-pitfalls

[Vicky.]

From the guardian link..quite sure this is where I was getting mixed up

You don’t need to pay the full fee if you only want to vote in the Labour leadership election, however – for a one-off minimum fee of £3 you can become a “registered supporter” and will get a ballot paper. Those who have signed up as Labour party supporters through an affiliated organisation or union will also be entitled to vote.

Assumed only proper members could vote on that, so thought the membership fee was very low.

[Livia]

I remember the "join the Labour party and vote in the leadership election for £3!" Lots of Labour supporters and supporters of other parties joined the Tories for the last leadership election, £25, hoping to vote. But you have to be a member for 3 months in the Tories before you're allowed to vote. I hear there were a lot of refunds requested.

[Beso]

From the guardian link..quite sure this is where I was getting mixed up



Assumed only proper members could vote on that, so thought the membership fee was very low.

Surely you get a badge as well for 3 quid.:shrug:

[Livia]

From the guardian link..quite sure this is where I was getting mixed up



Assumed only proper members could vote on that, so thought the membership fee was very low.

Only full members can vote in the Tory's leadership elections. Obviously Labour thinks differently these days.

[Oliver_W]

Luciana Berger thought it was true and she was on the receiving end of it as a Jewish MP. It's one of the main reasons she left the party

A fish stinks from the head, and I think there's certainly a lot of antisemitism in Labour right now, but I don't think the party is "institutionally racist", especially when discounting the Corbyn crew

[Livia]

A fish stinks from the head, and I think there's certainly a lot of antisemitism in Labour right now, but I don't think the party is "institutionally racist", especially when discounting the Corbyn crew

I do agree with that, it only really became a problem when Corbyn took over. And the Labour party's current stance emboldens anti-Semites... and so Jews are suffering more attacks year on year. It's being normalised.

[Kizzy]

:laugh: Oh dear. No I am not seriously advocating for that, it is basically what came to mind when trying to sort issues in my head. There IS no way to sort out the behaviour/views of members really, without stopping members joining fullstop, as obviously MPs cannot control the general public in that way..if anything, I was sticking up for Labour there, As people expect too much I think of political parties, you cannot mindcontrol someone just because they paid a fiver fee to join or whatever it is..its impossible. As such, you cannot blame Labour for there being some unsavoury characters in their ranks. Same as other parties tbh..

You could reasonably expect their MPs to not come out with questionable stuff. You cannot blame Corbyn for the behaviour of members. Put simply

Did not mean for that to be taken as a serious suggestion at all D:

Also..I have no sources for personal opinion/experience. Kind of thought that went without saying.

Ah right sorry vicky yes of course I agree with you then, it's always being said that the membership is representative of a cross section of society as a whole ... in 540,000 people youre bound to encounter a few cranks.

Your personal opinion is valid of course but it would help to know what led you to think that in relation to labour and not other parties as we know they all have their faults.

[Liam-]

I do agree with that, it only really became a problem when Corbyn took over. And the Labour party's current stance emboldens anti-Semites... and so Jews are suffering more attacks year on year. It's being normalised.

That’s factually incorrect, most of the claims of antisemitism were made before and sat on until Jeremy took over, Jews aren’t being attacked because a minuscule percentage of labour members have been accused of antisemitism, what a ridiculous thing to say

[Nicky91]

i haven't said much of Labour, Corbyn in this thread

i don't support Labour with Corbyn as leader


i more like Labour like our dutch one my previous post on here had a lot of examples who we had as labour party leaders (some who ended up becoming our PM, or one time when Labour was a good allied party for the PM's party CDA, Ruud Lubbers's era)


and proof that our dutch labour isn't anti-semitic, well we had someone with jewish background as one of their leaders from 2010-2012 Job Cohen, who had that function joined with his role as mayor of amsterdam that time, he wasn't forced out, he left because he couldn't combine both roles and his heart belonged to amsterdam slightly more but he had brought his replacement for labour forward himself

[Twosugars]

i haven't said much of Labour, Corbyn in this thread

i don't support Labour with Corbyn as leader


i more like Labour like our dutch one my previous post on here had a lot of examples who we had as labour party leaders (some who ended up becoming our PM, or one time when Labour was a good allied party for the PM's party CDA, Ruud Lubbers's era)


and proof that our dutch labour isn't anti-semitic, well we had someone with jewish background as one of their leaders from 2010-2012 Job Cohen, who had that function joined with his role as mayor of amsterdam that time, he wasn't forced out, he left because he couldn't combine both roles and his heart belonged to amsterdam slightly more but he had brought his replacement for labour forward himself

Our Labour had Milliband up to 2015. And other prominent Jewish politicians
So I dont know if this is relevant way of judging anything

[Nicky91]

also thinking of a left wing party as anti-semitic when it's usually the more far right ones who are anti-semitic

for example that one far right party in Greece called ''Golden Dawn'' they even have a upside down nazi-Germany flag as their logo :umm2: and they are currently 3rd as for popular political parties in Greece

golden dawn ideology

''neo-nazism''
''antisemitism''
''anti-turkish''
''islamophobia''


or here, the murder of one rapper in Greece who was very much against neo-nazi's of golden dawn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Pavlos_Fyssas

he was murdered by a member of golden dawn

and if you think police should anything about them


Golden Dawn had very good relations and contacts with officers of the force, on and off duty, as well as with rank and file police.
The police provided the group with batons and radio communications equipment during mass demonstrations, mainly during celebrations of the Athens Polytechnic uprising and during rallies by left-wing and anarchist groups, in order to provoke riots.
Periandros and the group's connections with the force largely delayed his arrest.
Periandros's brother, also a member of Golden Dawn, was a security escort of an unnamed New Democracy MP.
Many Golden Dawn members were illegally carrying an assortment of weapons.


bit offtopic i know, but my point is there can be moans about labour and corbyn but there are far worse political parties out there, far more racist

[Twosugars]

also thinking of a left wing party as anti-semitic when it's usually the more far right ones who are anti-semitic

for example that one far right party in Greece called ''Golden Dawn'' they even have a upside down nazi-Germany flag as their logo :umm2: and they are currently 3rd as for popular political parties in Greece

golden dawn ideology

''neo-nazism''
''antisemitism''
''anti-turkish''
''islamophobia''


or here, the murder of one rapper in Greece who was very much against neo-nazi's of golden dawn

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Pavlos_Fyssas

he was murdered by a member of golden dawn

and if you think police should anything about them




bit offtopic i know, but my point is there can be moans about labour and corbyn but there are far worse political parties out there, far more racist

But Labour is a mainstream party and as such must be all-inclusive.
That's why the inquiry is needed to address the wrongs and provide a basis for changes to be made in order to avoid any repeats of discrimination.

[Nicky91]

But Labour is a mainstream party and as such must be all-inclusive.
That's why the inquiry is needed to address the wrongs and provide a basis for changes to be made in order to avoid any repeats of discrimination.

same as Golden Dawn but they are more international since they want to expand globally :skull:

also they seem to be above the law since they got friends in greek national police department

[Kizzy]

That’s factually incorrect, most of the claims of antisemitism were made before and sat on until Jeremy took over, Jews aren’t being attacked because a minuscule percentage of labour members have been accused of antisemitism, what a ridiculous thing to say

It's on the rise due to the reemergence of the far right across Europe..this is a conveniently forgotten fact.

[Liam-]

It's on the rise due to the reemergence of the far right across Europe..this is a conveniently forgotten fact.

Jeremy’s fault obviously

[Beso]

But Labour is a mainstream party and as such must be all-inclusive.
That's why the inquiry is needed to address the wrongs and provide a basis for changes to be made in order to avoid any repeats of discrimination.

It goes way beyond simple discrimination..it is filled with hate and comes from a very very dark place..and must at all costs be stopped.

[Beso]

It's on the rise due to the reemergence of the far right across Europe..this is a conveniently forgotten fact.

This is labours problem in a nutshell.....From the very top they refuse to see wrong within thier own party, instead they act like cowards and blame someone else for thier own shortcommings. Hiding away, refusing to act or answer to it...hoping it will all just disappear.

[Twosugars]

It goes way beyond simple discrimination..it is filled with hate and comes from a very very dark place..and must at all costs be stopped.

If it does it will be stopped. That's the purpose of the inquiry.

Now who I wonder will investigate far right and neonazis? :think:

[Oliver_W]

Now who I wonder will investigate far right and neonazis? :think:

Neither currently have any real political power, so who would be investigated?

[Beso]

If it does it will be stopped. That's the purpose of the inquiry.

Now who I wonder will investigate far right and neonazis? :think:

Roger cook?

He did it way back when I was a youngster, I'm sorry but it's labours turn now..same ****...different invistagive journalist...you, Twosugars. ..just like many many many right wing thugs in the 70s 80s and Rogers 90s are in denial.

[Twosugars]

Neither currently have any real political power, so who would be investigated?

Anti semitism is illegal like all hate crime, political power doesn't come into it Oliver

[Oliver_W]

Anti semitism is illegal like all hate crime, political power doesn't come into it Oliver

Okay, I'll rephrase - the far right and neo nazies have no political presence, so there's no-one to investigate.

[Kizzy]

This is labours problem in a nutshell.....From the very top they refuse to see wrong within thier own party, instead they act like cowards and blame someone else for thier own shortcommings. Hiding away, refusing to act or answer to it...hoping it will all just disappear.

Wait a minute. How does me mentioning the rise of the far right in Europe mean I don't acknowledge Anti-Semetism within Labour??

[Beso]

Wait a minute. How does me mentioning the rise of the far right in Europe mean I don't acknowledge Anti-Semetism within Labour??

Did I say that?

[smudgie]

Big can of worms opened.
Now it’s going to court, those who spoke out against the whistle blowers are being sued for deformation of character.
This isn’t going away anytime soon.

[Livia]

The Observer view: Labour leadership is complicit in antisemitism

The Panorama programme revealed a toxic culture that merely reforming the party’s processes will not solve

‘It absolutely breaks my heart to say, but I do not think the Labour party is a safe space for Jewish people any more.” Thus spoke Izzy Lenga, a Labour member interviewed in last week’s Panorama documentary on antisemitism in the party. Her words echo sentiments expressed by many Jewish MPs, members and supporters in recent months, and are a dreadful indictment of Labour’s failure to confront and root out antisemitism within its ranks.

The documentary brought to light fresh allegations about interference from Jeremy Corbyn’s office in disciplinary procedures supposed to be independent of the party’s leadership. It found that, as recently as this spring, 1,000 complaints about antisemitism had yet to be dealt with, and so far only 15 people have been expelled as a result. But the most powerful moments of the programme were in the brave testimony of party members and staff who spoke of their experience of dealing with antisemitism and its impact on their mental health.


Full article:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/14/observer-view-antisemitism-in-labour-jeremy-corbyn

[Oliver_W]

The Observer view: Labour leadership is complicit in antisemitism

The Panorama programme revealed a toxic culture that merely reforming the party’s processes will not solve

‘It absolutely breaks my heart to say, but I do not think the Labour party is a safe space for Jewish people any more.” Thus spoke Izzy Lenga, a Labour member interviewed in last week’s Panorama documentary on antisemitism in the party. Her words echo sentiments expressed by many Jewish MPs, members and supporters in recent months, and are a dreadful indictment of Labour’s failure to confront and root out antisemitism within its ranks.

The documentary brought to light fresh allegations about interference from Jeremy Corbyn’s office in disciplinary procedures supposed to be independent of the party’s leadership. It found that, as recently as this spring, 1,000 complaints about antisemitism had yet to be dealt with, and so far only 15 people have been expelled as a result. But the most powerful moments of the programme were in the brave testimony of party members and staff who spoke of their experience of dealing with antisemitism and its impact on their mental health.


Full article:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jul/14/observer-view-antisemitism-in-labour-jeremy-corbyn
All these people, who are not only Jewish but part of the Labour party, just don't understand or have the right insight ... they need to spend more time on internet forums to help them properly understand the situation. Until then, their experience means nothing!

[bots]

Labour should listen "to the message" rather than "going for the messengers" when it comes to anti-Semitism, the shadow foreign secretary has said.

The party has insisted claims aired by BBC Panorama were inaccurate and made by "disaffected" former staff.

But Emily Thornberry told Andrew Marr "nobody can pretend there isn't an ongoing problem" within Labour.

Jewish Labour MP Dame Margaret Hodge said the party was at "a tipping point" on the issue.

"If the leadership doesn't start to listen now there will be many more people who will feel so uncomfortable within the Labour Party that they can no longer remain," she told Sky News.

Dame Margaret also said it was "intolerable and unacceptable" for the party leadership to attack those who went public with concerns.

Labour has been engulfed in a long-running dispute over anti-Semitism within its ranks, which has led nine MPs and three peers to leave the party.

Last week Panorama revealed claims from a number of former party officials that some of Jeremy Corbyn's closest allies tried to interfere in disciplinary processes involving allegations of anti-Semitism.

Labour's disputes team is supposed to operate independently from the party's political structures, including the leader's office.

'Shame and disgrace'
Ms Thornberry said she found the Panorama episode "awful" - both the programme itself and "more importantly the revelations".

She said she understood the party had concerns about how the investigation was done, but told Andrew Marr: "I think that we shouldn't be going for the messengers, we should be looking at the message. I think that is what is important."

She said it was "a shame and a disgrace" that the Equality and Human Rights Commission had been brought in to investigate Labour over anti-Semitism - "but they have and we should welcome it".

She said the party should be asking the commission: "Can you help us?"


Labour has rejected claims of interference in its disciplinary processes and described the Panorama programme as "seriously inaccurate" and "politically one-sided".

In a statement, it said: "Since Jennie Formby became general secretary the rate at which anti-Semitism cases have been dealt with has increased more than fourfold.

"We will build on the improvements to our procedures made under Jennie Formby, and continue to act against this repugnant form of racism."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48981120

[AnnieK]

Political leanings aside, there clearly is an issue or else it would not have been investigated by the EHRC if there wasn't real problems. There will be issues in every political party I am sure but right now the focus is on Labour and the investigation will obviously draw unbiased conclusions and issues will hopefully be rectified as far as possible.

I don't think saying that some Jews have no issues and others do helps either. If one person feels discriminated against, that needs to be sorted. No-one should feel in 2019 that there is a problem because of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation. Obviously some Jewish members have an issue so an investigation by an external body is the right way to go to eradicate the problem as far as possible.

I would.imagine this investigation will lead to others across all parties and I'm all in favour of that. Transparency is the key and tbf, most labour supporters I know are welcoming this investigation as they don't want this issue tarring their party further.

[Livia]

I see the Whistleblowers who took part in the Panorama programme are suing Labour. Now that will be interesting.

[Kizzy]

Political leanings aside, there clearly is an issue or else it would not have been investigated by the EHRC if there wasn't real problems. There will be issues in every political party I am sure but right now the focus is on Labour and the investigation will obviously draw unbiased conclusions and issues will hopefully be rectified as far as possible.

I don't think saying that some Jews have no issues and others do helps either. If one person feels discriminated against, that needs to be sorted. No-one should feel in 2019 that there is a problem because of race, religion, sex, sexual orientation. Obviously some Jewish members have an issue so an investigation by an external body is the right way to go to eradicate the problem as far as possible.

I would.imagine this investigation will lead to others across all parties and I'm all in favour of that. Transparency is the key and tbf, most labour supporters I know are welcoming this investigation as they don't want this issue tarring their party further.

100% agree there Anne :)

[Beso]

https://economicsociology.org/2015/08/28/remember-the-golden-rule-whoever-has-the-gold-makes-the-rules/


I think I know where some are coming from.

[Kizzy]

https://economicsociology.org/2015/08/28/remember-the-golden-rule-whoever-has-the-gold-makes-the-rules/


I think I know where some are coming from.

Actually it was me that said that... and I didn't get it from there. I got it from Alladin! Jafar says it when he steals the lamp from him :laugh:

[Kazanne]

All these people, who are not only Jewish but part of the Labour party, just don't understand or have the right insight ... they need to spend more time on internet forums to help them properly understand the situation. Until then, their experience means nothing!

:laugh:Way to go Oliver, sometimes it does come across as some people think they actually know more than the people involved , :wavey:

[Beso]

Actually it was me that said that... and I didn't get it from there. I got it from Alladin! Jafar says it when he steals the lamp from him :laugh:

And that's where they got it from.:shrug:

[joeysteele]

:laugh:Way to go Oliver, sometimes it does come across as some people think they actually know more than the people involved , :wavey:

Just what do you mean by that.

The Labour Party is involved, I am a Labour party member.
I canvass and work voluntarily along with many Jewish members of the Party too.

I and others listen to the concerns of those leaving the Party.
The party has an investigation going on.
What more do you want,????

Those involved.
What are you on about.
The Jewish community feeling any antisemitism have to have their grievances dealt with.

However, with a complainant there is also those accused.
Who also have the right to be heard.

This investigation WILL hear all sides.
Whose not involved in your eyes.
Labour party members are very much involved actually.
It's our party too.

Are you saying they shouldn't be??

[Beso]

Just what do you mean by that.

The Labour Party is involved, I am a Labour party member.
I canvass and work voluntarily along with many Jewish members of the Party too.

I and others listen to the concerns of those leaving the Party.
The party has an investigation going on.
What more do you want,????

Those involved.
What are you on about.
The Jewish community feeling any antisemitism have to have their grievances dealt with.

However, with a complainant there is also those accused.
Who also have the right to be heard.

This investigation WILL hear all sides.
Whose not involved in your eyes.
Labour party members are very much involved actually.
It's our party too.

Are you saying they shouldn't be??




Can I ask a question joey please?

Ignore it if you want.

But what will you do if this is not dealt with appropriatly?

And as a canvasser what is your response to people on thier doorsteps when they bring this up?

[joeysteele]

Can I ask a question joey please?

Ignore it if you want.

But what will you do if this is not dealt with appropriatly?

And as a canvasser what is your response to people on thier doorsteps when they bring this up?


I am happy to answer.

On doorsteps I listen and hold the stance I have all through here.
I abhor any antisemitism.
I want any , whether small or large pockets of it eradicated.

In the main on the doorstep that's what Labour voters want too.

In some areas it is seen as only a means to get rid of Corbyn.
I don't agree that is the case.

Obviously from non Labour voters, you get a different response.
I've had from some,:' I'll never vote for your party with this antisemitism in it''.
Then when walking away respecting that.
I've had said as I left. '' mind you I'd never vote for your party anyway''.

However I like to get a range of views which has had me and others express dissatisfaction with the Party's handling of it.
Which is why I welcomed this investigation.

Your first question.
If this investigation says antisemitism is rife in the Party.
Then I've already said on this thread.
I would leave the Party.

Hope I have answered your points raised.

[Beso]

Thank you joey..

A well balanced opinion and very honest..thanks for that.

One more wick question though...the people saying..I'd never vorlte for your lot anyway....do you see it as a lost vote or do you walk away thinking...that fat slob won't get out thier bed to vote anyway?

[joeysteele]

Thank you joey..

A well balanced opinion and very honest..thanks for that.

One more wick question though...the people saying..I'd never vorlte for your lot anyway....do you see it as a lost vote or do you walk away thinking...that fat slob won't get out thier bed to vote anyway?

I am always sad at any votes possibly lost.

Obviously at times I don't know how strong they may be to another Party.
Usually Conservative voters in the majority are pleasant and just say they always vote Conservative.

I have when really getting foul abuse, which happens at times.
More in the EU referendum
Had to bite my tongue and not respond however.

No, I wouldn't think of anyone as a fat slob.
I never get personal or ever judge anyone on appearance.

I always find it interesting, educational and even exciting canvassing.
I love meeting new people and learning about their lives.
I've had many truly inspiring conversations especially with much older people.

Thank you for the questions parmnion.

[Beso]

May I ask just one more seeing as you are being very very honest..I like it.

If someone came to your door canvassing, offering certain opinions...would you bite your tongue then?.

[Beso]

And may i just add, I enjoy going into tower blocks in london to repair tvs and meeting and talking with other people...it is like a breath of fresh air sometimes..other times not.

I feel a daily report coming up on tibb.

[joeysteele]

May I ask just one more seeing as you are being very very honest..I like it.

If someone came to your door canvassing, offering certain opinions...would you bite your tongue then?.

If the opinions they were offering were ones I didn't agree with.
I would challenge them with my own take on the issue.

If it was looking to get more hostile, and this has never happened, then I'd tell them to leave and close the door.

I have to say however, in face to face situations where you both hear the tone intended and see the reactions to what is being discussed from each other.
Then debate is made far easier with less negativity.

[Beso]

You should be most loved joey.

[Kizzy]

You should be most loved joey.

What do you mean should be?... He is!

[Beso]

What do you mean should be?... He is!

If I said, "YOU ARE MOST LOVED JOEY" he wouldn't have accepted it.

[Denver]

Corbyn wants Jews gone and that's fact

[Liam-]

Corbyn wants Jews gone and that's fact

Nowhere close to being a fact

[Denver]

Nowhere close to being a fact

He doesnt like them and will not give reasons why.

The fact he has failed to answer questions on his views and also his friendships with terrorists

[Liam-]

He doesnt like them and will not give reasons why.

The fact he has failed to answer questions on his views and also his friendships with terrorists

He doesn’t give reasons because it’s blatantly not true

[Denver]

He doesn’t give reasons because it’s blatantly not true

Yet he has never denied it and you cant fale pictures of him being pally pally with terrorists

[Livia]

Leading Jewish figures slam Labour's 'historic shame' over antisemitism

In a letter to the party, they say antisemitism has been 'protracted, sanctioned and propagated' by the Labour leadership

A group of prominent Jewish writers and public figures have written to Labour to express their “bewilderment and disgust” with the party’s handling of the antisemitism crisis.

Sir Simon Schama, Howard Jacobson, Tracy Ann Oberman, Simon Sebag Montefiore, Rabbi Julia Neuberger and Neil Blair all put their names to the letter, which argues that antisemitism has been “protracted, sanctioned and propagated by the leadership faction”.

It goes on to say that the pending investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) shames Labour in a similar way to the British National Party (BNP), which was investigated in 2010.

It reads: “The very fact that Labour is, like the BNP before it, being statutorily investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission for racism is not a matter of housekeeping but a taint of international, historic shame.

“It is clear this is not just about Jeremy Corbyn, but the pernicious world view of a faction that has – temporarily we hope – taken control of Labour.

“Trust between Corbyn’s Labour and most Jews in Britain appears to be fractured beyond repair.”

The letter, seen by the Observer and the Sunday Times, called on the party to establish an independent complaints body to investigate antisemitism – which it terms a “pool of poison in the party’s soul”.

Coming in the wake of the BBC Panorama exposé on the party’s failure to tackle antisemitism, the letter condemned Labour’s response to the whistleblowers’ allegations.

It said: “Damage limitation should not be the first priority for Labour. The Labour leadership remains determined to go on piously protesting its innocence, rejecting the message and blaming the messenger.

“Whistleblowers would be heroes to any other Labour Party; to this Labour Party they are traitors. Regrettable double standards are therefore operating, where Labour is keen to support whistleblowers elsewhere but not in its own house.”

Labour has denied that high-ranking party members interfered in the complaints system, as the programme claimed, insisting it is taking decisive action against antisemitism.

The party added that since Jennie Formby became general secretary, the rate at which antisemitism cases have been dealt with has increased more than four-fold.

A Labour spokesman said: “As we said when Panorama aired on Wednesday, the Labour Party will fully investigate any complaints concerning the antisemitic incidents reported by party members in interviews in the programme.

“Labour stands in solidarity with Jewish people and is fully committed to the support, defence and celebration of the Jewish community and its organisations.

“We will build on the improvements to our procedures made under Jennie Formby, and continue to act against this repugnant form of racism.”

Labour has also demanded that the BBC remove the Panorama documentary, which aired on Wednesday, from its iPlayer service.

Labour said on Sunday that the programme, which it described as “heavily slanted and inaccurate”, should be “removed from BBC iPlayer until basic facts are corrected, full and unedited quotes are used and an apology is issued”.

The BBC has defended the programme and its reporter, John Ware.

Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, called on Labour to end the “soap opera” over antisemitism, suggesting it should not be “going for” the whistleblowers.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/sir-simon-schama-howard-jacobson-letter-labour-antisemitism-panorama-whistleblower-1.486460

[smudgie]

Leading Jewish figures slam Labour's 'historic shame' over antisemitism

In a letter to the party, they say antisemitism has been 'protracted, sanctioned and propagated' by the Labour leadership

A group of prominent Jewish writers and public figures have written to Labour to express their “bewilderment and disgust” with the party’s handling of the antisemitism crisis.

Sir Simon Schama, Howard Jacobson, Tracy Ann Oberman, Simon Sebag Montefiore, Rabbi Julia Neuberger and Neil Blair all put their names to the letter, which argues that antisemitism has been “protracted, sanctioned and propagated by the leadership faction”.

It goes on to say that the pending investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) shames Labour in a similar way to the British National Party (BNP), which was investigated in 2010.

It reads: “The very fact that Labour is, like the BNP before it, being statutorily investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission for racism is not a matter of housekeeping but a taint of international, historic shame.

“It is clear this is not just about Jeremy Corbyn, but the pernicious world view of a faction that has – temporarily we hope – taken control of Labour.

“Trust between Corbyn’s Labour and most Jews in Britain appears to be fractured beyond repair.”

The letter, seen by the Observer and the Sunday Times, called on the party to establish an independent complaints body to investigate antisemitism – which it terms a “pool of poison in the party’s soul”.

Coming in the wake of the BBC Panorama exposé on the party’s failure to tackle antisemitism, the letter condemned Labour’s response to the whistleblowers’ allegations.

It said: “Damage limitation should not be the first priority for Labour. The Labour leadership remains determined to go on piously protesting its innocence, rejecting the message and blaming the messenger.

“Whistleblowers would be heroes to any other Labour Party; to this Labour Party they are traitors. Regrettable double standards are therefore operating, where Labour is keen to support whistleblowers elsewhere but not in its own house.”

Labour has denied that high-ranking party members interfered in the complaints system, as the programme claimed, insisting it is taking decisive action against antisemitism.

The party added that since Jennie Formby became general secretary, the rate at which antisemitism cases have been dealt with has increased more than four-fold.

A Labour spokesman said: “As we said when Panorama aired on Wednesday, the Labour Party will fully investigate any complaints concerning the antisemitic incidents reported by party members in interviews in the programme.

“Labour stands in solidarity with Jewish people and is fully committed to the support, defence and celebration of the Jewish community and its organisations.

“We will build on the improvements to our procedures made under Jennie Formby, and continue to act against this repugnant form of racism.”

Labour has also demanded that the BBC remove the Panorama documentary, which aired on Wednesday, from its iPlayer service.

Labour said on Sunday that the programme, which it described as “heavily slanted and inaccurate”, should be “removed from BBC iPlayer until basic facts are corrected, full and unedited quotes are used and an apology is issued”.

The BBC has defended the programme and its reporter, John Ware.

Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, called on Labour to end the “soap opera” over antisemitism, suggesting it should not be “going for” the whistleblowers.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/sir-simon-schama-howard-jacobson-letter-labour-antisemitism-panorama-whistleblower-1.486460

Sounds about right.
It needs sorting out, Labour needs to sort itself out if they want any chance of winning an election anytime soon.

[Oliver_W]

Leading Jewish figures slam Labour's 'historic shame' over antisemitism

In a letter to the party, they say antisemitism has been 'protracted, sanctioned and propagated' by the Labour leadership

A group of prominent Jewish writers and public figures have written to Labour to express their “bewilderment and disgust” with the party’s handling of the antisemitism crisis.

Sir Simon Schama, Howard Jacobson, Tracy Ann Oberman, Simon Sebag Montefiore, Rabbi Julia Neuberger and Neil Blair all put their names to the letter, which argues that antisemitism has been “protracted, sanctioned and propagated by the leadership faction”.

It goes on to say that the pending investigation by the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) shames Labour in a similar way to the British National Party (BNP), which was investigated in 2010.

It reads: “The very fact that Labour is, like the BNP before it, being statutorily investigated by the Equality and Human Rights Commission for racism is not a matter of housekeeping but a taint of international, historic shame.

“It is clear this is not just about Jeremy Corbyn, but the pernicious world view of a faction that has – temporarily we hope – taken control of Labour.

“Trust between Corbyn’s Labour and most Jews in Britain appears to be fractured beyond repair.”

The letter, seen by the Observer and the Sunday Times, called on the party to establish an independent complaints body to investigate antisemitism – which it terms a “pool of poison in the party’s soul”.

Coming in the wake of the BBC Panorama exposé on the party’s failure to tackle antisemitism, the letter condemned Labour’s response to the whistleblowers’ allegations.

It said: “Damage limitation should not be the first priority for Labour. The Labour leadership remains determined to go on piously protesting its innocence, rejecting the message and blaming the messenger.

“Whistleblowers would be heroes to any other Labour Party; to this Labour Party they are traitors. Regrettable double standards are therefore operating, where Labour is keen to support whistleblowers elsewhere but not in its own house.”

Labour has denied that high-ranking party members interfered in the complaints system, as the programme claimed, insisting it is taking decisive action against antisemitism.

The party added that since Jennie Formby became general secretary, the rate at which antisemitism cases have been dealt with has increased more than four-fold.

A Labour spokesman said: “As we said when Panorama aired on Wednesday, the Labour Party will fully investigate any complaints concerning the antisemitic incidents reported by party members in interviews in the programme.

“Labour stands in solidarity with Jewish people and is fully committed to the support, defence and celebration of the Jewish community and its organisations.

“We will build on the improvements to our procedures made under Jennie Formby, and continue to act against this repugnant form of racism.”

Labour has also demanded that the BBC remove the Panorama documentary, which aired on Wednesday, from its iPlayer service.

Labour said on Sunday that the programme, which it described as “heavily slanted and inaccurate”, should be “removed from BBC iPlayer until basic facts are corrected, full and unedited quotes are used and an apology is issued”.

The BBC has defended the programme and its reporter, John Ware.

Emily Thornberry, the shadow foreign secretary, called on Labour to end the “soap opera” over antisemitism, suggesting it should not be “going for” the whistleblowers.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/sir-simon-schama-howard-jacobson-letter-labour-antisemitism-panorama-whistleblower-1.486460
Yeah but what do all those insiders really know, they shouldask someone who goes door-knocking for the party what the real deal is.

[Kizzy]

If I weren't on my phone I'd post the list of notable Jewish supporters of Labour who recently came together to react against the impact this has had on the Labour party. These academics are being sidelined here...There is no acknowledgement of their view why?
Are we being led to believe there is no Jewish support for Corbyns Labour....I take it that's what the mocking comments about door knocking are inferring?
Only it's not true...there is support clearly.

[Beso]

If I wern't on my phone I'd be along the pub having a couple of pints.

[Beso]

Have I got this right?

It's about the state of Israel and it's land taken from others...Jeremy backs the palastnians because it was originally thier land...but the Jewish religion disputes this....so Jeremy is against the state of Israel. ..thus against its people as well...because a state can't be a state without people.....so he sees the jewish population as intruders.....




But we are supposed to take in other people into the UK?


Is that right? I dunno.

[Marsh.]

Yeah but what do all those insiders really know, they shouldask someone who goes door-knocking for the party what the real deal is.

Any need to be so personal?

[Livia]

Have I got this right?

It's about the state of Israel and it's land taken from others...Jeremy backs the palastnians because it was originally thier land...but the Jewish religion disputes this....so Jeremy is against the state of Israel. ..thus against its people as well...because a state can't be a state without people.....so he sees the jewish population as intruders.....




But we are supposed to take in other people into the UK?


Is that right? I dunno.


It's mostly that. Which is strange because it's mostly Labour supporters who remind us constantly that not all Muslims are terrorists, but can't grasp the fact that not all Jews are Israeli. Corbyn has no problem with the subjugation of women all over the Middle East. Women can't vote... but they can in Israel, whether they're Arab, Christian or Jew. It's the only democracy in the Middle East. Another reason why the Palestinians hate Israel.

[Liam-]

Criticising Israel isn’t the same as being anti-semitic

[Livia]

Criticising Israel isn’t the same as being anti-semitic

No it isn't. People are allowed to criticise Israel just like they're entitled to criticise the government.

[Kizzy]

It's mostly that. Which is strange because it's mostly Labour supporters who remind us constantly that not all Muslims are terrorists, but can't grasp the fact that not all Jews are Israeli. Corbyn has no problem with the subjugation of women all over the Middle East. Women can't vote... but they can in Israel, whether they're Arab, Christian or Jew. It's the only democracy in the Middle East. Another reason why the Palestinians hate Israel.

I'm going to suggest that's quite a colonial attitude,we take the land from the savages? ...

[smudgie]

So now the Labour Peers are up in arms.
Meeting on Monday to discuss a no confidence vote on Jeremy Corbyn.

[Kizzy]

Ok I'm going to say it, the closer we come to a general election the more there is talk of ousting Corbyn, the issue within Labour hasn't got any worse, it's been shown that the complaints department has sped up four fold . If Corbyn was to step down would the problem go away?...

[Oliver_W]

Ok I'm going to say it, the closer we come to a general election the more there is talk of ousting Corbyn, the issue within Labour hasn't got any worse, it's been shown that the complaints department has sped up four fold . If Corbyn was to step down would the problem go away?...

A GE is still a couple of years away though?

[Cherie]

A GE is still a couple of years away though?


There seems to be some rumblings that the Torys would like to get a GE in before Corbyn is pushed so we might have one in the Autumn

[Kizzy]

A GE is still a couple of years away though?

I don't think so, and Labour are ahead in the polls so there's a renewed sense of urgency to remove Corbyn. I think it's disgusting this issue is being used as a means to remove him. But I have to say that is what appears to be happening now.

[bots]

there will be a vote of confidence if the government try and go for a no deal, so we could have a GE by October

[Livia]

Corbyn finally acts and sacks someone.... for criticising HIM! If only they'd acted so quickly on anti-Semitism......

Labour’s shadow Brexit *minister, Dianne Hayter, has been sacked after she likened the “bunker mentality” around Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership to the “last days of Hitler”.

Lady Hayter, Labour’s deputy leader in the Lords, was stripped of her shadow cabinet position after she attacked Corbyn’s inner circle and its critical response to a BBC Panorama programme investigating antisemitism complaints within the party. “To compare the Labour leader and Labour party staff working to elect a Labour government to the Nazi regime is truly contemptible, and grossly insensitive to Jewish staff in particular,” a Labour party spokesman said. He added that Hayter had been sacked “with immediate effect” for her “deeply offensive remarks about Jeremy Corbyn and his office”.

Hayter, who remains the party’s deputy leader in the Lords because it is an elected position, made the remarks at a meeting of Labour First – a *centre-left group of MPs and activists – on Tuesday. Addressing the meeting, she said: “Those of you who haven’t [read the book] will have watched the film *Bunker, about the last days of *Hitler, of how you stop receiving into the inner group any information which suggests that things are not going the way you want.”

The Ilford North Labour MP, Wes Streeting, said Hayter’s sacking was a “gross over-reaction to a comment that was actually about Jeremy Corbyn’s bunker mentality”.
He added: “This sacking only reinforces her point. The speed of this sacking shows that Labour’s leader is quick to act to protect his feelings, but slow to act against racists. The double standards are extraordinary.

“Dianne Hayter remains the elected deputy leader of the Labour group in the House of Lords, regardless of *Jeremy Corbyn’s purge.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/17/labour-shadow-brexit-minister-sacked-over-corbyn-comments

[Kizzy]

Annoyed at being likened to Hitler? !The nerve...
Again how can the issue be depoliticised and independent if Corbyn makes the decisions?

[Beso]

It all seems such a long long away from his messiah momentioned at Glastonbury. ...I'm guessing drugs were involved then though

[Livia]

It all seems such a long long away from his messiah momentioned at Glastonbury. ...I'm guessing drugs were involved then though

There are some for whom he could never do any wrong. Gladly, those numbers are reducing. I hear there's likely to be a vote of no confidence in him next week. It's about time he was replaced. See Labour spring up in the polls when he is.