Politicians using the publics emotions.

[Beso]

I am utterly disgusted at the left using the memory of Jo Cox as scare tactics in a discussion about language used in parliament. .

When you stop and think, she died a few years ago and there is not a person alive that would still want her dead!..things have got even more stressed and divided in the few years since her tragic and very hurtful death...but nothing like that since in the UK.

The left are using her memory to attack the right, using her as an example of what can happen with certain words used in parliament...

[Oliver_W]

It is a bit tacky to invoke a woman's murder just because people are typing words on a screen. If someone like Katie Hopkins mentioned Jo Cox in reference to the online "abuse" she probably gets, she'd be rightly dragged across the coals.

[Twosugars]

Bojo has sunk even lower today.
What a ****ing disgrace he is

[Alf]

Bojo has sunk even lower today.
What a ****ing disgrace he isIt's OK, he has a snorkel.

[Tom4784]

We live in a world where Right Wing extremists and incels are often planning attacks on politicians and, more often then not, it's female politicians in particular that are targetted.

Leaders must be smart in the terminology they use, when you look at recent shootings in the US, the common link between most of them is that most of these shooters idolised and adhered to Trump's 'philosophies' and the language he uses resonated with them. When a person in power calls people traitors for not doing what he wants them to, when he uses terms of war to make out that Brexit is a battle situation and not an parliamentary procedure, he is inspiring the crazies to take action.

When you downplay the emotions and fears of these MPs who have lost a colleague and know all too well how easily it could have been them, you're not defending the right wing, you're defending the extremists, you're downplaying what happened to Jo Cox and you're downplaying the very real threat of Right Wing terrorism because you see 'Right Wing' and you automatically jump to it's defense out of nothing more than tribalism.

[arista]

I am utterly disgusted at the left using the memory of Jo Cox as scare tactics in a discussion about language used in parliament. .

When you stop and think, she died a few years ago and there is not a person alive that would still want her dead!..things have got even more stressed and divided in the few years since her tragic and very hurtful death...but nothing like that since in the UK.

The left are using her memory to attack the right, using her as an example of what can happen with certain words used in parliament...



Yes Labour are Struggling
and the Indie Party Women ex Conservative.

[arista]

We live in a world where Right Wing extremists and incels are often planning attacks on politicians and, more often then not, it's female politicians in particular that are targetted.

Leaders must be smart in the terminology they use, when you look at recent shootings in the US, the common link between most of them is that most of these shooters idolised and adhered to Trump's 'philosophies' and the language he uses resonated with them. When a person in power calls people traitors for not doing what he wants them to, when he uses terms of war to make out that Brexit is a battle situation and not an parliamentary procedure, he is inspiring the crazies to take action.

When you downplay the emotions and fears of these MPs who have lost a colleague and know all too well how easily it could have been them, you're not defending the right wing, you're defending the extremists, you're downplaying what happened to Jo Cox and you're downplaying the very real threat of Right Wing terrorism because you see 'Right Wing' and you automatically jump to it's defense out of nothing more than tribalism.



Sure
Its easy to attack a Female MP
but keep dragging Jo Cox up
is wrong

[arista]

Bojo has sunk even lower today.
What a ****ing disgrace he is


No that is him
he ain't going to change.

[bots]

i think censoring words such as surrender is absurd.

However, I do think all sides of the house need to dial down the temperature of arguments a lot. It is all their raging and shouting at each other that incites anger and violence. They are not setting a good example.

[Kizzy]

They are absolutely right, he knows full well what he's doing. The seeds of division he's sowing, its part of his people v parliament direction. Risking the safety and lives of the dissenting MPs by ramping up the pressure with these key phrases, to force them into the conciousness of the public via repetition and no doubt his friends in the media.

How many times did he repeat certain words? traitor, capitulation, surrender, treason?
This was not an error, it's a calculated strategy, we have seen the horrific outcome of someone incentivised to extreme violence by right wing rhetoric. The MPs are right never to let the name of Jo Cox fade! It's not getting any better, far from it, now the call to arms for right wing extremists comes from our own prime minister...

Many many members of parliament and their family are receiving abuse and death threats, they stood up and begged the PM to temper his language and his response was some nonsense word! I'm happy that the chair committed to dealing with the issue once the PM had scuttled from the chamber right before being challenged once more by Corbyn.

If we turn a blind eye to this I see more attacks on MPs and due to his attitude and language the PM will be directly responsible!

[bots]

They are absolutely right, he knows full well what he's doing. The seeds of division he's sowing, its part of his people v parliament direction. Risking the safety and lives of the dissenting MPs by ramping up the pressure with these key phrases, to force them into the conciousness of the public via repetition and no doubt his friends in the media.

How many times did he repeat certain words? traitor, capitulation, surrender, treason?
This was not an error, it's a calculated strategy, we have seen the horrific outcome of someone incentivised to extreme violence by right wing rhetoric. The MPs are right never to let the name of Jo Cox fade! It's not getting any better, far from it, now the call to arms for right wing extremists comes from our own prime minister...

Many many members of parliament and their family are receiving abuse and death threats, they stood up and begged the PM to temper his language and his response was some nonsense word! I'm happy that the chair committed to dealing with the issue once the PM had scuttled from the chamber right before being challenged once more by Corbyn.

If we turn a blind eye to this I see more attacks on MPs and due to his attitude and language the PM will be directly responsible!


in a democracy you are entitled express yourself however you see fit, and that applies particularly in the house of commons. If his speech is inciting hatred, then make him accountable for it. Use the laws that exist. Attempting to censor the use of certain common words is not the way to go about it, and it certainly isn't democracy

[MB.]

The point wasn't specifically about whether or not anyone would still want to harm Jo Cox, it was about the Prime Minister using much of the same language as Jo Cox's killer used ("traitor" especially) with seemingly little regard for how this may impact on the death threats that female MPs from across the political spectrum have been getting ever since Jo's murder

[Kizzy]

in a democracy you are entitled express yourself however you see fit, and that applies particularly in the house of commons. If his speech is inciting hatred, then make him accountable for it. Use the laws that exist. Attempting to censor the use of certain common words is not the way to go about it, and it certainly isn't democracy

He will be held accountable that's been decided however should it ever come to that .. That the prime minister has to be investigated for his divisive conduct?
It's almost through the looking Glass bizarre that its in any way acceptable to shout down frightened predominantly female MPs.
His changing the name of the bill was tactical it was also childish. What if that happened regularly and tory bills on universal credit, bedroom tax and disability benefits were referred to as something else...The starve bill? The live in a box bill? The why won't you just die bill?

Whichever way you look at it Johnson is not fit to be prime minister, he's in no way shape or form democratic. He's proved that time and again in his attitude to parliament and now also the supreme Court.

[arista]

One Labour MP used "Traitor"

But that was not used by this PM
that was Newspapers

[Beso]

Was it any worse than corbyns silly woman comment that he lied about saying....and Boris didn't scuttle out the chamber..he left after sitting there for hours upon hours whilst his opponents didn't. .they all came back in together to attack a tired man as one...he did the right thing by leaving..probably hungry and desperate for the toilet....but it's easy to dress it up a Boris scuttling away if that's the narrative you want to put forward or force...it almost comes across as hateful and inciteful. ..

[Kizzy]

One Labour MP used "Traitor"

But that was not used by this PM
that was Newspapers

'Other female MPs, including Paula Sherriff, attacked the prime minister for repeatedly calling the act put through parliament by Hilary Benn to take no-deal Brexit off the table the “surrender bill”.

She said: “The prime minister has continually used pejorative language to describe an act of parliament passed by this house. We should not resort to using offensive, dangerous, inflammatory language for legislation we do not like.”

Recalling the memory of her friend Cox, she said many MPs had received death threats.

And let me tell the prime minister – they often quote his words, ‘surrender act’, ‘betrayal,’ ‘traitor’: we must moderate our language and it has to come from the prime minister first.”
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/25/no-apologies-labour-fury-as-boris-johnson-goes-on-the-attack

[bots]

we have had words like traitor and surrender in our vocabulary for centuries. One deranged man uses those words and they should never be used again? That's what people are basically saying. It's the height of stupidity.

[arista]

'Other female MPs, including Paula Sherriff, attacked the prime minister for repeatedly calling the act put through parliament by Hilary Benn to take no-deal Brexit off the table the “surrender bill”.

She said: “The prime minister has continually used pejorative language to describe an act of parliament passed by this house. We should not resort to using offensive, dangerous, inflammatory language for legislation we do not like.”

Recalling the memory of her friend Cox, she said many MPs had received death threats.

And let me tell the prime minister – they often quote his words, ‘surrender act’, ‘betrayal,’ ‘traitor’: we must moderate our language and it has to come from the prime minister first.”


No Kizzy We Must have a General Election
to clear the decks.

Both Sides of Parliament are Getting Death Threats

[Kizzy]

we have had words like traitor and surrender in our vocabulary for centuries. One deranged man uses those words and they should never be used again? That's what people are basically saying. It's the height of stupidity.

The height of stupidity for me is accepting the prime minister if your county is deranged, but not being overly concerned by it.

[Beso]

They are absolutely right, he knows full well what he's doing. The seeds of division he's sowing, its part of his people v parliament direction. Risking the safety and lives of the dissenting MPs by ramping up the pressure with these key phrases, to force them into the conciousness of the public via repetition and no doubt his friends in the media.

How many times did he repeat certain words? traitor, capitulation, surrender, treason?
This was not an error, it's a calculated strategy, we have seen the horrific outcome of someone incentivised to extreme violence by right wing rhetoric. The MPs are right never to let the name of Jo Cox fade! It's not getting any better, far from it, now the call to arms for right wing extremists comes from our own prime minister...

Many many members of parliament and their family are receiving abuse and death threats, they stood up and begged the PM to temper his language and his response was some nonsense word! I'm happy that the chair committed to dealing with the issue once the PM had scuttled from the chamber right before being challenged once more by Corbyn.

If we turn a blind eye to this I see more attacks on MPs and due to his attitude and language the PM will be directly responsible!

we have had words like traitor and surrender in our vocabulary for centuries. One deranged man uses those words and they should never be used again? That's what people are basically saying. It's the height of stupidity.




Yet many of those shouting the loudest remain silent when a beheaded Boris is paraded across the papers.

[Kizzy]

No Kizzy We Must have a General Election
to clear the decks.

Both Sides of Parliament are Getting Death Threats

Are they.. Did I miss that? who on the consevasive benches stated they had recieved death threats?

AFTER no deal is off the table... then that's when the consensus in the commons want an election.

[Beso]

The speaker made it very clear that all sides had received death threats.

[arista]

The speaker made it very clear that all sides had received death threats.


Yes the Conservative Chair MP
on TV News this morning confirmed that

[Kizzy]

Yet many of those shouting the loudest remain silent when a beheaded Boris is paraded across the papers.

Are you suggesting I would be happy with this?... is this how your mind has twisted my words?.. Sorry that is beyond feeble.
You correlated what i said to mean i dont want them dead, so I must want him dead?

[Kizzy]

Yes the Conservative Chair MP
on TV News this morning confirmed that

As far as I'm aware none spoke last night, if they have this morning then I wouldn't know that would I?
It might have been helpful if theyd spoke up for their colleagues on the opposite benches last night then?

[joeysteele]

We live in a world where Right Wing extremists and incels are often planning attacks on politicians and, more often then not, it's female politicians in particular that are targetted.

Leaders must be smart in the terminology they use, when you look at recent shootings in the US, the common link between most of them is that most of these shooters idolised and adhered to Trump's 'philosophies' and the language he uses resonated with them. When a person in power calls people traitors for not doing what he wants them to, when he uses terms of war to make out that Brexit is a battle situation and not an parliamentary procedure, he is inspiring the crazies to take action.

When you downplay the emotions and fears of these MPs who have lost a colleague and know all too well how easily it could have been them, you're not defending the right wing, you're defending the extremists, you're downplaying what happened to Jo Cox and you're downplaying the very real threat of Right Wing terrorism because you see 'Right Wing' and you automatically jump to it's defense out of nothing more than tribalism.



Absolutely this post is one of your very best.

It's sad posts like it are needed.

Johnson and others fuel some of the worst divisions there are in the Country.

The PMs repeated use of inflammatory terms all through is just playing to the truly awful hard-line extremists in the Con party.
Particularly the Con membership.

Many Conservative voters will not agree or support his use of wording.

After the murder, brutal murder of an unarmed woman doing her job.
I found Con voters devastated by it wanting to support Labour activists and Labour voters.
That murder should always be in the minds of anyone making public speeches.
To moderate terminology used, to try to help ensure it never happens again.

Sadly I fear it will and with this PM who, when someone points out the possible dangers MPs face.
Dismisses the points raised using a statement, he'd never heard such humbug.
Shocking.

All Parties have MPs who are getting some awful threats made against them and their families and even their children.

The disgraceful man who targeted Rees-Moggs children publicly.
Absolutely disgraceful.

It is the case, most threats are from faceless individuals hiding behind anonymity.
Some are happy to be really acidic verbally with idle threats.

Then there is the extremists, who are so unstable they will act on the threats they make.
Or worse, who just act without warning.

Such as with Jo Cox.

Terminology being used to fuel the already tense divisions that exist is of a danger level that should be unacceptable.
Johnson and Farage are the main instigators of fuelling divisions.

Then we get the real extremists who act, thinking a licence has been given them to.

Johnson was a disgrace as a PM in the exchanges yesterday.

Sadly, MPs are rarely seen in a good light but some have never been more possibly in danger of harm or death even, as they are now.

Any major figures, not just in politics, speaking publicly need to be made to set out to not incite division and hate but to work to eradicate it.

[Beso]

Are you suggesting I would be happy with this?... is this how your mind has twisted my words?.. Sorry that is beyond feeble.
You correlated what i said to mean i dont want them dead, so I must want him dead?

I wasn't even on about you.

[Kizzy]

I wasn't even on about you.

You quoted me?... Did you mean the MPs last night upset at receiving death threats would be silent if Johnson was attacked? Sorry that's an equally pathetic view.

[Kazanne]

It's OK, he has a snorkel.

:joker::joker: love your humour Alf and that screeching woman who brought Jo Cox into the discussion was disgraceful:wavey:

[Vicky.]

Using a dead woman as a tool in a political argument is just vile. Honestly, I haven't read up properly on this yet, but it seems a common tactic and its horrendous.

Edited to add. IF it was in a 'we don't want something like Jo Cox's murder to happen again' then obviously its fine. If its in a 'stop/go through with Brexit, honour her memory!!11' then not, at all. My husband caught the back end of it and said it was the second, it might have started as the first. Not sure as I havent watched/read anything yet so maybe shouldnt comment.

[Vicky.]

OK from reading this thread looks like he got the wrong end of the stick too.

The threats MPs get, and especially female MPs are vile. I remember Jess Phillips I think it was, saying she got hundreds of death and rape threats for speaking out on womens rights..its just awful :/

[Twosugars]

The clown is aping trump.
Ramping up the language to sow divisions.
He will try to claim parliament and judiciary are against "the people"

So much for uniting the country he promised

[Alf]

The clown is aping trump.
Ramping up the language to sow divisions.
He will try to claim parliament and judiciary are against "the people"

So much for uniting the country he promisedLanguage is a beautiful thing, especially the English one. I'd take language over violence any day.

[Tom4784]

Sure
Its easy to attack a Female MP
but keep dragging Jo Cox up
is wrong

It's only 'wrong' because it's highlighting that extreme words can lead to extreme actions and it's making your 'side' look bad.

[Alf]

It's funny that for the past 3 years, remoaners have been calling leavers, Nazis, fascists, far-right, bigots, racists, little Englanders.

And now they're demanding some sort of anger from people about language being used against them.

[Alf]

"The language a the tone" it's not yet 11.30am and I've heard that said close to a hundred times already today. Mainstream news is so boring.

[Twosugars]

Language is a beautiful thing, especially the English one. I'd take language over violence any day.

Do you any other languages to compare?

[Twosugars]

It's funny that for the past 3 years, remoaners have been calling leavers, Nazis, fascists, far-right, bigots, racists, little Englanders.

And now they're demanding some sort of anger from people about language being used against them.

The only person bringing up nazis was bojo when he compared EU to nazi Germany

[Alf]

Do you any other languages to compare?Oui

[arista]

It's only 'wrong' because it's highlighting that extreme words can lead to extreme actions and it's making your 'side' look bad.



The Evil Punk that Murdered
that Labour Lady MP
is on his own.


He is Nothing to do with My Winning Side

[Twosugars]

The Evil Punk that Murdered
that Labour Lady MP
is on his own.


He is Nothing to do with My Winning Side

He took inspiration from your leave politicians

A product of their rhetoric

Your side owns him

[Twosugars]

Oui

Alors combien de francais connaissez-vous vraiment, juste oui?

[Alf]

He took inspiration from your leave politicians

A product of their rhetoric

Your side owns himI don't recall any leave politician telling people to go out and kill MPs. So if he was inspired by them, then he misunderstood them.

[MTVN]

The only person bringing up nazis was bojo when he compared EU to nazi Germany

David Lammy compared Leaver MPs to Nazis and then said 'he didn't go far enough' when he was challenged on it

[Alf]

"The language a the tone" it's not yet 11.30am and I've heard that said close to a hundred times already today. Mainstream news is so boring.Since I posted this, just watching Sky news alone, I've heard the word "language" said 57 times (I've been counting, play along) It's like they're trying to push something to distract from something else, but trying way too hard

[Nicky91]

Language is a beautiful thing, especially the English one. I'd take language over violence any day.

:umm2: the stench at the disrespectfulness for the scottish, Welsh, northern irish languages

[Alf]

:umm2: the stench at the disrespectfulness for the scottish, Welsh, northern irish languagesThey all use the English language too, mainly.

[Twosugars]

The European commission has joined those reprimanding Boris Johnson for the language he used in the Commons last night about his opponent. This is what the commission’s spokeswoman, Mina Andreeva, said on the subject.

We would remind everybody that respect is a fundamental value in all democracies. It is the responsibility of each and every politician to uphold our values. History has shown us what happens when they are not respected.

Wise words from Europe

[Kazanne]

Since I posted this, just watching Sky news alone, I've heard the word "language" said 57 times (I've been counting, play along) It's like they're trying to push something to distract from something else, but trying way too hard

Its ridiculous how its all homed in on this but it must be nectar to the opposition who seem to have forgotten it was that screeching woman who first brought Jo Cox into the debate , they are like kids in a playground. if he'de have said fook off I could understand it,but really humbug ? BAH

[Alf]

From now on, nobody is allowed to call Boris a racist or liar, because that's a bad tone of language, whether it's true or not.

Is that a fair compromise?

[Nicky91]

From now on, nobody is allowed to call Boris a racist or liar, because that's a bad tone of language, whether it's true or not.

Is that a fair compromise?

well i do feel some sympathy for Boris, especially when Farage and goons go on and on being against him, when they themselves have also got certain flaws

and Boris is still a better PM than Farage ever will be (cause those deluded brexit party idiots totally believe him becoming that)

[arista]

From now on, nobody is allowed to call Boris a racist or liar, because that's a bad tone of language, whether it's true or not.

Is that a fair compromise?


Yes.

[bots]

The European commission has joined those reprimanding Boris Johnson for the language he used in the Commons last night about his opponent. This is what the commission’s spokeswoman, Mina Andreeva, said on the subject.

We would remind everybody that respect is a fundamental value in all democracies. It is the responsibility of each and every politician to uphold our values. History has shown us what happens when they are not respected.

Wise words from Europe

and they should butt out and stop trying to influence the british people

[Alf]

well i do feel some sympathy for Boris, especially when Farage and goons go on and on being against him, when they themselves have also got certain flaws

and Boris is still a better PM than Farage ever will be (cause those deluded brexit party idiots totally believe him becoming that)We can't use language with a bad tone against anybody. Including Nigel Farage and Stephen Yaxley Lennon. We can't have one rule for one and a different rule for another.

That's the deal, you in?

Alternatively, people could stop crying about language and accept we all use it, and without it we'd make no progress in life.

[Kizzy]

From now on, nobody is allowed to call Boris a racist or liar, because that's a bad tone of language, whether it's true or not.

Is that a fair compromise?

No because it's true :/

[joeysteele]

Using a dead woman as a tool in a political argument is just vile. Honestly, I haven't read up properly on this yet, but it seems a common tactic and its horrendous.

Edited to add. IF it was in a 'we don't want something like Jo Cox's murder to happen again' then obviously its fine. If its in a 'stop/go through with Brexit, honour her memory!!11' then not, at all. My husband caught the back end of it and said it was the second, it might have started as the first. Not sure as I havent watched/read anything yet so maybe shouldnt comment.


She wasn't brought in as a tool at all.

They were complaining at the divisive inflammatory language used by the PM.
Since the referendum, MPs are getting serious threats.
Even death threats not just to them but their families too.

Jo was brutally murdered, during the referendum.
She was an MP.
A Labour MP.
Other Labour MPs were her close friends.
None of whom want another friend or any other MP of any party, brutally murdered.
As MPs in all Parties are getting worrying and even death threats.

However the PMs response to a woman rightly enraged at his inflammatory terminogy.
Was he'd never heard such humbug.

What's incredible and telling is that anyone finds that humerous.

I still shudder at Lee Rigby's brutal murder.
Worrying for those in all armed forces.

Jo Cox was an MP murdered just doing her job.
Naturally if anyone inflames tensions with terminology like, surrendering, capitulating, traitors, betrayers.
Of course it needs raising to remind people of what such language could lead to possibly.

From a PM it is and should be disgraceful.

Jess Philips has had horrendous threats against her even today.

Do we have to wait until another brutal murder of an MP happens.
Before those who'd just dismiss those really worrying about it.
Stop finding it humerous and seem to think a brutal murder of anyone, adult or child should not be kept in focus.

[Twosugars]

and they should butt out and stop trying to influence the british people

Tell that to trump too

[Vicky.]

I do agree with alf here, that if complaining about extreme language used against opponents, the left really have no leg to stand on here. The word nazi is flung around a fair bit, along with other extreme descriptions used for..well non nazis, simply stating right wing views can get you branded such.

I do agree the extreme language needs to go, and agree it could..empower more nutters like Rigby. But it needs to stop completely, not just from one side.

[Twosugars]

Bojo the lying clown is now a nasty lying clown

[Kizzy]

and they should butt out and stop trying to influence the british people

Yes we don't want or need a voice or reason! We have trump!

:joker: listen to yourself.. butt out, what kind of adolescent jargon is that?
I'll add that to the list of people we can't take advice off experts, scientists, the EU :laugh:

[Nicky91]

We can't use language with a bad tone against anybody. Including Nigel Farage and Stephen Yaxley Lennon. We can't have one rule for one and a different rule for another.

That's the deal, you in?

Alternatively, people could stop crying about language and accept we all use it, and without it we'd make no progress in life.

how about no? :notimpressed: and i'm all in for freedom of speech, and you just have bad tone language in political debates, especially when they get too heated up

and no way i am gonna say nice things about Farage, i'd rather eat my shoes

[Vicky.]

She wasn't brought in as a tool at all.

They were complaining at the divisive inflammatory language used by the PM.
Since the referendum, MPs are getting serious threats.
Even death threats not just to them but their families too.

Jo was brutally murdered, during the referendum.
She was an MP.
A Labour MP.
Other Labour MPs were her close friends.
None of whom want another friend or any other MP of any party, brutally murdered.
As MPs in all Parties are getting worrying and even death threats.

However the PMs response to a woman rightly enraged at his inflammatory terminogy.
Was he'd never heard such humbug.

What's incredible and telling is that anyone finds that humerous.

I still shudder at Lee Rigby's brutal murder.
Worrying for those in all armed forces.

Jo Cox was an MP murdered just doing her job.
Naturally if anyone inflames tensions with terminology like, surrendering, capitulating, traitors, betrayers.
Of course it needs raising to remind people of what such language could lead to possibly.

From a PM it is and should be disgraceful.

Jess Philips has had horrendous threats against her even today.

Do we have to wait until another brutal murder of an MP happens.
Before those who'd just dismiss those really worrying about it.
Stop finding it humerous and seem to think a brutal murder of anyone, adult or child should not be kept in focus.

Thanks for explaining a bit more joey. I probably should not have commented before reading/watching it all myself. Second hand accounts are not really the most reliable of sources, plus as I said, he only caught the end of it really..where he said boris walked out as basically, everyone was shouting at him,

I think the MPs need to chill the **** out in general though when 'debating'. Yeah, debating inspires passion in people, but it really seems they all just yell at each other and insult each other, its not really good to see those who are in charge of the country behaving like children.

[Niamh.]

I think the MPs need to chill the **** out in general though when 'debating'. Yeah, debating inspires passion in people, but it really seems they all just yell at each other and insult each other, its not really good to see those who are in charge of the country behaving like children.

Yeah it's weird and it's not just the UK either, I don't get why it's acceptable and expected of Politicians to behave like babies and fire insults at eachother. Why can't they be professionals like every other person who works have to do? It's weird

[joeysteele]

I do agree with alf here, that if complaining about extreme language used against opponents, the left really have no leg to stand on here. The word nazi is flung around a fair bit, along with other extreme descriptions used for..well non nazis, simply stating right wing views can get you branded such.

I do agree the extreme language needs to go, and agree it could..empower more nutters like Rigby. But it needs to stop completely, not just from one side.



I and others ON the left on here were termed terrorist supporting red Nazis.
It's not just the left that uses that.

I on the left have NEVER used that word to anyone.
On or off here actually.

[Alf]

how about no? :notimpressed: and i'm all in for freedom of speech, and you just have bad tone language in political debates, especially when they get too heated up

and no way i am gonna say nice things about Farage, i'd rather eat my shoesI agree with you, and I believe you don't have to say nice things, but I also think Boris should have that same right as you.

Keep your eye on these people, because they're trying to take away our right to criticise them. And that's not on for any of us.

[Kazanne]

and they should butt out and stop trying to influence the british people

:clap1: Exactly Bots.:wavey:

[Vicky.]

I and others ON the left on here were termed terrorist supporting red Nazis.
It's not just the left that uses that.

I on the left have NEVER used that word to anyone.
On or off here actually.

Well surely it goes without saying that not every single person on the left does this. But it seems a widespread problem.

And yeah, its not just the left. Both sides are at fault here. And it needs to end.

[Vicky.]

I think the MPs need to chill the **** out in general though when 'debating'. Yeah, debating inspires passion in people, but it really seems they all just yell at each other and insult each other, its not really good to see those who are in charge of the country behaving like children.

Yeah it's weird and it's not just the UK either, I don't get why it's acceptable and expected of Politicians to behave like babies and fire insults at eachother. Why can't they be professionals like every other person who works have to do? It's weird

Quite. I cannot imagine any other group of prosessionals behaving like this, especially when they know its being filmed and the public are watching.

[Niamh.]

Quite. I cannot imagine any other group of prosessionals behaving like this, especially when they know its being filmed and the public are watching.

I know, it's embarrassing

[arista]

1176970454957006848

[MTVN]

1177120933447917578

:omgno:

[Beso]

You quoted me?... Did you mean the MPs last night upset at receiving death threats would be silent if Johnson was attacked? Sorry that's an equally pathetic view.

No, I'm saying they wern't vocal the other week when that bloke went on stage with a severed Boris head...imo that was more incite full than words like surrender.

[Kazanne]

1177120933447917578

:omgno:

Who is this Neil Coyle ? what a foul mouthed individual he is ,is he one of the ones talking about language, I mean humbug is far worse than his rant here isn't it ?:laugh: what a hypocrite.

[Kizzy]

Well.. at least that exchange wasn't in the commons :/
It just goes to show though that the right leaning commentators are fighting to get this spun around so the accusers are seen to be the ones at fault and not the accused!!
I stand by those MPs who brought Jo Cox name into the discussion.. it's apt and relevant,are we all just meant to forget her, or how and why she died?

No way, Boris is wrong and he needs to take the shame all this they're both as bad as each other...no they are not!
Nobody in that house of commons has been as insulting or offensive. Nobody.

[MTVN]

Well.. at least that exchange wasn't in the commons :/
It just goes to show though that the right leaning commentators are fighting to get this spun around so the accusers are seen to be the ones at fault and not the accused!!
I stand by those MPs who brought Jo Cox name into the discussion.. it's apt and relevant,are we all just meant to forget her, or how and why she died?

No way, Boris is wrong and he needs to take the shame all this they're both as bad as each other...no they are not!
Nobody in that house of commons has been as insulting or offensive. Nobody.

I think Boris handled that question poorly ftr but it's being deliberately misrepresented now with Jess Phillips saying he described Coxs murder as 'humbug' - that wasn't the case. He was disagreeing with her claim that using the term 'surrender bill' and Coxs murder were in any way connected. She also tried to claim that Boris used the word 'traitor' which he has never used

[Kizzy]

No, I'm saying they wern't vocal the other week when that bloke went on stage with a severed Boris head...imo that was more incite full than words like surrender.

Get some perspective. ..that was a singer not the prime minister.
I didn't and don't condone that by the way, look at the thread I said it was disgusting at the time.

[Vicky.]

There sems to me to be a hell of a lot of projection going on here. I find it a bit ridiculous to only blame 'the right' for OTT language and such. Also tbh I would say saying traitor or surrender is not nearly as bad as branding people nazis? IDK..this argument seems daft to me as both sides are guilty of it all yet both try to make out its the other and only the other (not meaning people on here, about the uproar on twitter..

Boris does go way over the top though, didn't he say the negotiations with Ireland about the border were like putting on a suicide vest..or something along those lines? Ridiculous for any professinal, but definitely the PM. Needs to reign it in a bit and think before speaking, but hes not the only one..just the 'most powerful one' presently..

[Alf]

I think Boris handled that question poorly ftr but it's being deliberately misrepresented now with Jess Phillips saying he described Coxs murder as 'humbug' - that wasn't the case. He was disagreeing with her claim that using the term 'surrender bill' and Coxs murder were in any way connected. She also tried to claim that Boris used the word 'traitor' which he has never usedJess Phillips who will stab Politicians in the front, not the back. Her words, not mine.

Language Timothy

[Twosugars]

A leading lawyer in the legal fight against Boris Johnson’s prorogation of parliament has said he may need to leave the country over death threats triggered by the supreme court case that ruled the suspension “unlawful, void and of no effect”.

Jolyon Maugham QC has revealed that his local police and crime commissioner was sufficiently concerned by recent threats against his life that he was advised to buy a stab vest, while a former counter-terrorism expert was ordered to install a panic button in Maugham’s home. High-end security equipment is also installed outside his home.
The Guardian

[Niamh.]

There sems to me to be a hell of a lot of projection going on here. I find it a bit ridiculous to only blame 'the right' for OTT language and such. Also tbh I would say saying traitor or surrender is not nearly as bad as branding people nazis? IDK..this argument seems daft to me as both sides are guilty of it all yet both try to make out its the other and only the other (not meaning people on here, about the uproar on twitter..

Boris does go way over the top though, didn't he say the negotiations with Ireland about the border were like putting on a suicide vest..or something along those lines? Ridiculous for any professinal, but definitely the PM. Needs to reign it in a bit and think before speaking, but hes not the only one..just the 'most powerful one' presently..

omg he said that? that's disgraceful :o

[Beso]

Get some perspective. ..that was a singer not the prime minister.
I didn't and don't condone that by the way, look at the thread I said it was disgusting at the time.

That was a singer with many impressionable fans..Anyway. ..the speaker allow Boris words to stand, so blame the speaker as he must deem them non inflammatory...

So I believe the singer with the head has and could cause more nutters to show thier hatred towards Boris than Boris and his descriprions of the gutless left.

[Tom4784]

There sems to me to be a hell of a lot of projection going on here. I find it a bit ridiculous to only blame 'the right' for OTT language and such. Also tbh I would say saying traitor or surrender is not nearly as bad as branding people nazis? IDK..this argument seems daft to me as both sides are guilty of it all yet both try to make out its the other and only the other (not meaning people on here, about the uproar on twitter..

Boris does go way over the top though, didn't he say the negotiations with Ireland about the border were like putting on a suicide vest..or something along those lines? Ridiculous for any professinal, but definitely the PM. Needs to reign it in a bit and think before speaking, but hes not the only one..just the 'most powerful one' presently..

'Left Wing Terrorism' isn't the number 1 rising terrorist threat in the west right now, it's right wing terrorism. The difference between calling someone like Trump a Nazi (which is more than apt, considering the ****er literally has concentration camps full of immigrants) is that doing so isn't going to result in terrorism towards the right while Trump's own words have been inspiring mass shootings since he's been in office. The Brexiters making out that they're fighting some holy war creates targets of the people they oppose and an MP has already been slain by such rhetoric and Jo won't be the last at this rate.

You cannot play the centrist and say that both sides are as bad as each other when the right have blood on their hands and they are willing to protect the people who spilled that blood.

[Tom4784]

That was a singer with many impressionable fans..Anyway. ..the speaker allow Boris words to stand, so blame the speaker as he must deem them non inflammatory...

So I believe the singer with the head has and could cause more nutters to show thier hatred towards Boris than Boris and his descriprions of the gutless left.

More whataboutism.

[Beso]

More whataboutism.

Says the man who just said jo cox won't be the last......isn't that whataboutism?

[Tom4784]

Says the man who just said jo cox won't be the last......isn't that whataboutism?

No, that's not it in the slightest. I've explained whataboutism so many times to you and it's never sunk in. Every time I point out your whataboutism you just try to say 'No, you!' and it flops because you just don't understand what you are talking about.

Whataboutism is basically what it says on the tin. It's responding to a point by basically saying 'what about .......' in order to deflect. An example would be during the 2016 US elections, a lot of right wingers, when faced with troublesome aspects of Trump, responded with 'What about Hillary?' It's the act of ignoring something troubling about someone you support in order to pull focus on the opposition. Focusing on Hillary didn't change the fact that Trump was and still is corrupt AF, it merely shifted the narrative. You're trying to pull focus from a real issue in order to create false equivalency by saying 'what about this singer's stunt?' Doing so doesn't change the fact that what Boris did and has been doing is wrong, you're just trying to stop us from talking about it by shifting the conversation.

You have no excuse to not understand what whataboutism is now.

[Twosugars]

Rachel Johnson, the prime minister’s sister, has joined those condemning the PM for his language, and on Sky she singled out this comment for particular criticism. She said:

I do think it was particularly tasteless for those grieving a mother, MP and friend to say the best way to honour her memory is to deliver the thing she and her family campaigned against. I think it was a very tasteless way of referring to the memory of a murdered MP, murdered by someone who said “Britain first”, of the far right tendency, which you could argue is being whipped up by this sort of language.

In an interview with Sky, Rachel Johnson also criticised her brother’s language generally.

My brother is using words like surrender and capitulation as if the people standing in the way of the blessed will of the people as defined by 17.4m votes in 2016 should be hung, drawn, quartered, tarred and feathered. I think that is highly reprehensible language to use.

The Guardian

[arista]

Yes she said it on The Pledge
to be shown tonight.

SkyNewsHD showed a clip of just Rachel.


https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-language-was-tasteless-says-his-sister-11819940

[The Slim Reaper]

1177231618110607362

[Alf]

1177231618110607362What a coincidence. I'm not denying it happened, I'm just pointing out what a coincidence that on a day when these politicians are pushing for protection from the public that this would happen. It certainly makes her point more valid.

[joeysteele]

Rachel Johnson, the prime minister’s sister, has joined those condemning the PM for his language, and on Sky she singled out this comment for particular criticism. She said:

I do think it was particularly tasteless for those grieving a mother, MP and friend to say the best way to honour her memory is to deliver the thing she and her family campaigned against. I think it was a very tasteless way of referring to the memory of a murdered MP, murdered by someone who said “Britain first”, of the far right tendency, which you could argue is being whipped up by this sort of language.

In an interview with Sky, Rachel Johnson also criticised her brother’s language generally.

My brother is using words like surrender and capitulation as if the people standing in the way of the blessed will of the people as defined by 17.4m votes in 2016 should be hung, drawn, quartered, tarred and feathered. I think that is highly reprehensible language to use.

The Guardian

Boris Johnson seems to be the only one in his family not able to reason and be reasonable.

[The Slim Reaper]

How coincidentally. I'm not denying it happens, I'm just pointing out what a coincidence that on a day when these politicians are pushing for protection from the public that this would happen. It certainly makes her point more valid.

This stuff has been going on for a while, so I wouldn't say this happening the day after it kicked off publicly, is a coincidence necessarily. If I play along with the conspiracy angle, then I would suggest anyone that has an arrest on their record for threatening a politician, is not really going to either continue to be employed, or be able to gain employment any time soon. So on-going payments should be an easily obtainable level of proof.

[arista]

1177231618110607362


Good they Arrested him
Lock him up

[Twosugars]

Boris Johnson seems to be the only one in his family not able to reason and be reasonable.

He does look like the black sheep of his family.

Rachel, Jo and Stanley seem a reasonable and friendly bunch.

[Twosugars]

Yes she said it on The Pledge
to be shown tonight.

SkyNewsHD showed a clip of just Rachel.


https://news.sky.com/story/boris-johnsons-language-was-tasteless-says-his-sister-11819940
For Arista

If you watch it, observe what a smashing pair of knockers Rachel has

[Kazanne]

For Arista

If you watch it, observe what a smashing pair of knockers Rachel has

I am sure she is much more than a "pair of knockers" :facepalm:

[Twosugars]

I am sure she is much more than a "pair of knockers" :facepalm:

Never said she wasn't. She is an intelligent, independent and accomplished woman.
But she does happen to have a bouncy pair. Noticed that on CBB

[Kizzy]

There sems to me to be a hell of a lot of projection going on here. I find it a bit ridiculous to only blame 'the right' for OTT language and such. Also tbh I would say saying traitor or surrender is not nearly as bad as branding people nazis? IDK..this argument seems daft to me as both sides are guilty of it all yet both try to make out its the other and only the other (not meaning people on here, about the uproar on twitter..

Boris does go way over the top though, didn't he say the negotiations with Ireland about the border were like putting on a suicide vest..or something along those lines? Ridiculous for any professinal, but definitely the PM. Needs to reign it in a bit and think before speaking, but hes not the only one..just the 'most powerful one' presently..

Personally I'm blaming only the PM in this instance, the right wing nut jobs will be taking their cues from him..and you know what? I think he knows that.

[Kizzy]

That was a singer with many impressionable fans..Anyway. ..the speaker allow Boris words to stand, so blame the speaker as he must deem them non inflammatory...

So I believe the singer with the head has and could cause more nutters to show thier hatred towards Boris than Boris and his descriprions of the gutless left.

No he certainly did not deem them non inflammatory.
Oh look Boris is having an affect on you now, you're calling the benches opposite the 'gutless left' good job you're not easily influenced and all that.

[Vicky.]

'Left Wing Terrorism' isn't the number 1 rising terrorist threat in the west right now, it's right wing terrorism. The difference between calling someone like Trump a Nazi (which is more than apt, considering the ****er literally has concentration camps full of immigrants) is that doing so isn't going to result in terrorism towards the right while Trump's own words have been inspiring mass shootings since he's been in office. The Brexiters making out that they're fighting some holy war creates targets of the people they oppose and an MP has already been slain by such rhetoric and Jo won't be the last at this rate.

You cannot play the centrist and say that both sides are as bad as each other when the right have blood on their hands and they are willing to protect the people who spilled that blood.

I didn't say that and obviously I know that. Am not really on about calling trump a nazi either, it seems to be anyone with views not 'acceptable' to te left, which apparently seems to be anything even slightly right wing these days. Hell, for ****s sake I have been called a nazi on a fair few occasions by lefty dudebros. Its just the go to word it seems.

Honestly, whenever I post its fair to say its not about Trump at all. As basically, I want to attempt to pretend that idiotic prat does not exist at all as posting about him just makes me rage I have discovered, so I tend to avoid threads and stuff about him.

I do think both sides are as bad as each other in language. I think its ridiculous for 'the left' to be moaning about extreme language when 'they' are just as bad themselves. Obviously they are not as bad as each other when it comes to terrorism. That should be obvious.

[Vicky.]

Personally I'm blaming only the PM in this instance, the right wing nut jobs will be taking their cues from him..and you know what? I think he knows that.

The PM is responsible for how he acts and what he says of course. Admitting that he is not the only one, does not lessen blame on him.

Long story short, eveyone needs to chill the **** out, and think before they speak. Its getting ridiculous.

[Kizzy]

I didn't say that and obviously I know that. Am not really on about calling trump a nazi either, it seems to be anyone with views not 'acceptable' to te left, which apparently seems to be anything even slightly right wing these days. Hell, for ****s sake I have been called a nazi on a fair few occasions by lefty dudebros. Its just the go to word it seems.

Honestly, whenever I post its fair to say its not about Trump at all. As basically, I want to attempt to pretend that idiotic prat does not exist at all as posting about him just makes me rage I have discovered, so I tend to avoid threads and stuff about him.

I do think both sides are as bad as each other in language. I think its ridiculous for 'the left' to be moaning about extreme language when 'they' are just as bad themselves. Obviously they are not as bad as each other when it comes to terrorism. That should be obvious.

Who on the left are using this language though... I mean high up on the left?
I've seen reference to nazis on social media but that's expected, as you say it's just chatter from Joe public.
Who in the commons use these terms, this extreme language, which left wing MPs are inciting terrorism?

[Kizzy]

The PM is responsible for how he acts and what he says of course. Admitting that he is not the only one, does not lessen blame on him.

Long story short, eveyone needs to chill the **** out, and think before they speak. Its getting ridiculous.

So in the commons from the left who would you say was as incitful and inflammatory?
Where is the left wing mouthpiece for terrorism?

[Vicky.]

Its not just 'nazi'

But https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/17/labour-shadow-brexit-minister-sacked-over-corbyn-comments

Fairly sure thats not the only one either.


'Mouthpiece for left wing terrorism'? I said this when? There IS no left wing terrorism (that I know of) so..not exactly sure what you are getting at there at all.

Giving in with this thread in all honesty as have expected my words to be twisted. Again, quite a usual tactic from whenever you accept that 'the left' arent exactly angels in stuff they complain about :laugh:

[jet]

So in the commons from the left who would you say was as incitful and inflammatory?
Where is the left wing mouthpiece for terrorism?

Corbyn, on the sly, supporting the IRA, Hamas and Hezbollah.

[Oliver_W]

Last night really brought out the Labour gammon!

[bots]

depends how you classify terrorism. Momentum, Corbyn's main backer use intimidation etc to get their way. I consider that terrorism

[joeysteele]

Terrorism to me is anyone who will incite by deed or language physical harm or murder of another or others, holding differing views.

I don't think Johnson's language amounts to terrorism from him.

However as his Sister has just said.
He is using terminology to fuel divisions.

Now, if you have volatile dangerous idiots, who want to exact revenge on those who oppose their views.
Then calling others betrayers, or surrendering or capitulating to what those volatile idiots see as their enemies.
Then those idiots could feel they were supported, especially if that terminology comes from rulers of Nations.

That's dangerous.

[Alf]

Who on the left are using this language though... I mean high up on the left?
I've seen reference to nazis on social media but that's expected, as you say it's just chatter from Joe public.
Who in the commons use these terms, this extreme language, which left wing MPs are inciting terrorism?Plenty of videos of John Mcdonnell doing the rounds on Twitter today, with his (how's it phrased again?) language of division.

[Twosugars]

His own family distancing themselves from bojo. Wow.

[Kizzy]

Its not just 'nazi'

But https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/17/labour-shadow-brexit-minister-sacked-over-corbyn-comments

Fairly sure thats not the only one either.


'Mouthpiece for left wing terrorism'? I said this when? There IS no left wing terrorism (that I know of) so..not exactly sure what you are getting at there at all.

Giving in with this thread in all honesty as have expected my words to be twisted. Again, quite a usual tactic from whenever you accept that 'the left' arent exactly angels in stuff they complain about :laugh:

Yes and that member of the Lords was dealt with immediately as you would expect.
I wasn't accusing you of saying anything Vicky. .. what I meant was who on the left keeps making incendiary comments that might be used by or inspire terrorism.
As far as I know there isn't anyone, therefore in the commons they aren't both sides as bad as the other are they?
I haven't twisted your words, you misunderstood mine.

[Kizzy]

Corbyn, on the sly, supporting the IRA, Hamas and Hezbollah.

Nope try again

[Kizzy]

depends how you classify terrorism. Momentum, Corbyn's main backer use intimidation etc to get their way. I consider that terrorism

Nope not even MPs..

[Kizzy]

Plenty of videos of John Mcdonnell doing the rounds on Twitter today, with his (how's it phrased again?) language of division.

Nope just showing his disgust st bojo is not it either.

[Twosugars]

depends how you classify terrorism. Momentum, Corbyn's main backer use intimidation etc to get their way. I consider that terrorism

That is a ridiculous stretch

[joeysteele]

That is a ridiculous stretch

A massive stretch.

Now legitimate paid up members of Labour, who are of the momentum grouping are now being called terrorists.

The very language that fuels division further and alienates.

I think your term it's a ridiculous stretch, in my book is actually an understatement.

If that statement was taken on board, widely, then young and older momentum grouping canvassers.
Could find themselves exposed to extremists now seeing them as terrorists.

Frightening.
That kind of language that momentums actions are terrorism.
Could put ALL Labour members who identify themselves out leafleting and canvassing, in danger from extreme nutcases, who may see them as terrorists.

It is not only a ridiculous stretch, it is a very dangerously charged one too.

[jet]

None of you have mentioned the death threats made to Jewish members of Labour and violent actions/disgusting social media rhetoric against them by members of their own party. All condoned by Corbyn's inaction/complicity. Maybe you just conveniently forgot about them, eh? What hypocrisy.

[jet]

Nope try again

Stop burying your nose in the sand about Corbyns sympathies with the IRA, Hama's and Hezbollah. Your refusal to acknowledge or educate yourself on these issues is so juvenile.

[Kizzy]

Stop burying your nose in the sand about Corbyns sympathies with the IRA, Hama's and Hezbollah. Your refusal to acknowledge or educate yourself on these issues is so juvenile.

Says the person who refused to contemplate a simple hypothetical. ..

[jet]

Just one example of the dangers of Corbyns Labour:

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/mp-joan-ryan-reveals-death-threats-since-leaving-labour-over-culture-of-antisemitism-1.480874

Joan Ryan, the MP who quit Labour last month over the party’s “culture of antisemitism”, has called the police after receiving two death threats in the wake of her departure.

Ms Ryan became the eighth Labour MP to quit the party last month and has since had to report two threats made against her – one of which was hand delivered to her office in parliament.

The chair of Labour Friends of Israel received an unstamped handwritten note to her Commons office, which branded her a “****-sucking, Jewish ******* who defected to Israel”.
It said she should be raped and “set on fire”, the Mail on Sunday reports.
Another letter sent to her constituency office in Enfield North said: “Stop telling lies about Jeremy Corbyn – he is a decent man, you lying Jew *****. You need to be shoved right back in the ovens.”

In a letter written to the Labour leader, Ms Ryan, said she was "forced" to resign from the party she joined 25 years ago because the "values that led me to join" are now the "same values that have led me to leave it today."

She said the "huge shame" of antisemitism did not exist in the party before his election as leader. "No previous Labour leader would have allowed this huge shame to befall the party."

She added that Mr Corbyn was “presiding over a culture of antisemitism and hatred of Israel”.

Attacking Mr Corbyn's failure to deal with Jew-hate, Ms Ryan added that Mr Corbyn's "mindset, ideology and worldview that tolerates antisemitism poses a threat to the British public, Jew and non-Jew alike."

[jet]

Says the person who refused to contemplate a simple hypothetical. ..

What was simple about it? Nobody else bothered to reply to your sly hypothetical question either, they were too busy discussing things that were actually happening. :laugh:

[Kizzy]

Just one example of the dangers of Corbyns Labour:

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/mp-joan-ryan-reveals-death-threats-since-leaving-labour-over-culture-of-antisemitism-1.480874

Joan Ryan, the MP who quit Labour last month over the party’s “culture of antisemitism”, has called the police after receiving two death threats in the wake of her departure.

Ms Ryan became the eighth Labour MP to quit the party last month and has since had to report two threats made against her – one of which was hand delivered to her office in parliament.

The chair of Labour Friends of Israel received an unstamped handwritten note to her Commons office, which branded her a “****-sucking, Jewish ******* who defected to Israel”.
It said she should be raped and “set on fire”, the Mail on Sunday reports.
Another letter sent to her constituency office in Enfield North said: “Stop telling lies about Jeremy Corbyn – he is a decent man, you lying Jew *****. You need to be shoved right back in the ovens.”

In a letter written to the Labour leader, Ms Ryan, said she was "forced" to resign from the party she joined 25 years ago because the "values that led me to join" are now the "same values that have led me to leave it today."

She said the "huge shame" of antisemitism did not exist in the party before his election as leader. "No previous Labour leader would have allowed this huge shame to befall the party."

She added that Mr Corbyn was “presiding over a culture of antisemitism and hatred of Israel”.

Attacking Mr Corbyn's failure to deal with Jew-hate, Ms Ryan added that Mr Corbyn's "mindset, ideology and worldview that tolerates antisemitism poses a threat to the British public, Jew and non-Jew alike."


Think that has more to do with his support for Palestine than anything, it has nothing to do with this topic.

[Kizzy]

What was simple about it? Nobody else bothered to reply to your sly hypothetical question either, they were too busy discussing things that were actually happening. :laugh:

What wasnt simple? swop out Ireland for the other countries in the UK.. whats sly about that? I was only asking you to be fair.

[arista]

https://storify.com/services/proxy/2/nHaUJAXgO1SlV1-3BMPZcA/https/storify.com/services/proxy/2/DXPolIvzPe5TY2AMDLAEiQ/https/media.fyre.co/8VxU8gGSqq7sH0r9lm41_times.JPG

Riots?
Maybe in Westminster

[jet]

Think that has more to do with his support for Palestine than anything, it has nothing to do with this topic.

The imflammatory language and death threats in that report are on topic. I'm reminding people who seem to have forgotten that they come from both sides. I really think when you see something negative about Corbyn you refuse to read it because I have never once seen you criticize him for anything.

[joeysteele]

I don't think we are there yet.
However my fear is, the referendum, the very narrow result, 2 Countries voting narrowly to leave.
2 countries voting more solidly to remain.
Then the virtual guarantee that no way would we leave the EU with no deal, from ALL parties except UKIP.
This all could leave the Country ungovernable.

I think more representative voting is now a must, re PR in all elections.
Although were we to leave with no deal, I think it more than probable, Scotland will have to be given a new independence vote.
Which they will vote yes in now.

Thereby Great Britain and the UK is then no more.

I have the thought too, that the younger voters in N Ireland may then wish to have a vote on their future.
Hopefully from me, I hope the influence and support for the DUP really starts to wane more than it's been.

I've only been canvassing a day or two with fellow party workers.
The vast majority of people are reasoned no matter who they vote for usually.

However the big message we've had from people, is they won't be voting in a new referendum or in a general election.

In fact talking myself to 20 people who voted leave, who are furious we haven't left yet.
They weren't abusive, we discussed brexit and other things too.
However asking them would they be prepared to say where their vote may go in a general election.

8 of them said, they had only voted in the referendum and voted leave.
However they never have and never will vote for anyone or party in general or local elections.
Which I found both interesting and concerning.

No matter now leave or remain.
We have on referendum figures around 17 million who will be livid if we don't leave.
Then around 16 million who would be livid if we left with no deal.

How to even try to come together after this is very hard to see.
Which is why I say PR is needed now, to ensure no Party, even my own, rules absolute.
That Parties and MPs are FORCED to compromise and work together more.

A footnote to again on almost every thread some come on.
The antisemitism issue in Labour is something that has to be eradicated.
The party is being fully INDEPENDENTLY investigated on the problem.

As a Labour member, I do NOT personally believe the Labour party is institutionally antisemitic.
I've been out canvassing with fellow Jewish Labour members as has always been so since I joined the party.

It is then now, for this full independent investigation into antisemitism in Labour, to investigate and then rule on its findings.
Then to dictate what needs to be done.

I have every confidence it will not find Labour to be institutionally antisemitic.
Were it to I'd leave the party.

The hysterical ranting of those not waiting to hear the results and findings of the independent investigation, by presenting their own hate of Corbyn, really doesn't help or do anything to constructively help address the issue.

[bots]

I find it interesting the way everyone dismissed my comment about momentum, but they are not much different in how they operate to the mafia the way they threaten people and intimidate them. They may not have killed anyone yet, but apart from one instance, neither have extreme right wingers.

[joeysteele]

I find it interesting the way everyone dismissed my comment about momentum, but they are not much different in how they operate to the mafia the way they threaten people and intimidate them. They may not have killed anyone yet, but apart from one instance, neither have extreme right wingers.

I addressed it in full.

Because I found it inflammatory, dangerous to even myself as a Labour member though I'm not part of momentum.

After your more reasoned posts which I've supported over the last weeks.
Seeing you join in with a veiled incitement against momentum, which if extreme elements took on board, then I and other general activists of Labour.
Could be considered to be from momentum and terrorists.

I'm surprised the forum allowed the word terrorism to be used in that way by anyone.

I go out now canvassing in genuine fear of what I may come across.
Being thought a terrorist, just because I may be from the Labour party, or even if I was part of momentum, will only increase my fears.

Some irrational extremists will take what you said as gospel.

I didn't dismiss it.
I rejected your whole description and the lanuguage you chose to use in it.

[jet]

I find it interesting the way everyone dismissed my comment about momentum, but they are not much different in how they operate to the mafia the way they threaten people and intimidate them. They may not have killed anyone yet, but apart from one instance, neither have extreme right wingers.

I missed your post initially. I agree. But having an opinion on SB is now paramount to inciting the masses to violence. Talk about hysterical ranting.

[Cherie]

There is hysterical ranting from both sides, lets not close our eyes and put our fingers in our ears because we don't want to acknowledge it

Parliament is now akin to a soap opera or reality tv, it thrives on drama and dramatics.

They all need to calm down and act a bit more sensibly, I think a lot of them play to the camera as they know it will be aired and its all about their own self promotion rather than what is good for the country

[Cherie]

I find it interesting the way everyone dismissed my comment about momentum, but they are not much different in how they operate to the mafia the way they threaten people and intimidate them. They may not have killed anyone yet, but apart from one instance, neither have extreme right wingers.

Its par for the course BOTs, hands over eyes ...and fingers in ears, because some people are so entrenched in their party they can't come up for air

[Kazanne]

There is hysterical ranting from both sides, lets not close our eyes and put our fingers in our ears because we don't want to acknowledge it

Parliament is now akin to a soap opera or reality tv, it thrives on drama and dramatics.

They all need to calm down and act a bit more sensibly, I think a lot of them play to the camera as they know it will be aired and its all about their own self promotion rather than what is good for the country

:clap1::clap1:

[Alf]

The evil Fascist, racist, Nazi loving scumbag dictators in our government, need to stop using such inflammatory language.

[jet]

Joey, why don't you ask the man who you are canvassing for to become PM about incitement of violence. After attending over 70 IRA rallies and speaking at many of them (evidence obtained by The Telegraph) he's the expert.

[Kizzy]

The imflammatory language and death threats in that report are on topic. I'm reminding people who seem to have forgotten that they come from both sides. I really think when you see something negative about Corbyn you refuse to read it because I have never once seen you criticize him for anything.

I have said that it comes from both sides in the public sphere and social media...however I have made it very clear that in this thread I'm discussing the use of divisive and incendiary language in the house of commons only

I have asked which MP on the opposite benches ( not only labour) can be seen in the chamber to be using language similar to the PM that causes outrage derision and offence to fellow members?

[Alf]

I have said that it comes from both sides in the public sphere and social media...however I have made it very clear that in this thread I'm discussing the use of divisive and incendiary language in the house of commons only

I have asked which MP on the opposite benches ( not only labour) can be seen in the chamber to be using language similar to the PM that causes outrage derision and offence to fellow members?What language from the PM? Humbug? What's bad about that?

It only causes outrage and offence to fellow members, because they think playing the victim will do them favours.

[bots]

I addressed it in full.

Because I found it inflammatory, dangerous to even myself as a Labour member though I'm not part of momentum.

After your more reasoned posts which I've supported over the last weeks.
Seeing you join in with a veiled incitement against momentum, which if extreme elements took on board, then I and other general activists of Labour.
Could be considered to be from momentum and terrorists.

I'm surprised the forum allowed the word terrorism to be used in that way by anyone.

I go out now canvassing in genuine fear of what I may come across.
Being thought a terrorist, just because I may be from the Labour party, or even if I was part of momentum, will only increase my fears.

Some irrational extremists will take what you said as gospel.

I didn't dismiss it.
I rejected your whole description and the lanuguage you chose to use in it.

what i said was correct though, and your response here is unfathomable to be honest.

Can I just say that similar justifications as you have made above were made on behalf of the nazi party in their day.

Open your eyes joey before you try and silence me again.

[Toy Soldier]

There is hysterical ranting from both sides, lets not close our eyes and put our fingers in our ears because we don't want to acknowledge it

Parliament is now akin to a soap opera or reality tv, it thrives on drama and dramatics.

They all need to calm down and act a bit more sensibly, I think a lot of them play to the camera as they know it will be aired and its all about their own self promotion rather than what is good for the country

Cherie do you not agree, though, that the Prime Minister needs to be held to a higher standard than random backbench MPs and movements? That they should surely lead by example, and that we can't possibly expect parliament as a whole to get anywhere NEAR to being respectable again if the PM himself is part of the toddler antics?

Because it currently isn't respectable. It's a mess, and a joke. And the public can see that quite clearly at this point - ANY Westminster government now is going to find it very, very hard to be taken seriously at any time in the near future and honestly, that fact alone is probably far, FAR more dangerous than Brexit itself, no matter which way it goes.

[joeysteele]

what i said was correct though, and your response here is unfathomable to be honest.

Can I just say that similar justifications as you have made above were made on behalf of the nazi party in their day.

Open your eyes joey before you try and silence me again.


Silence you.
,

I object to one word only, terrorism

If you can't see the wrong in brandishing that about then there's no point in reasoning.

My eyes are wide open thank you.

I'd never use the terrorism word about anyone except those who are and who go around aimlessly murdering other people.

Say what you like, this forum seems to lack any ability to stop incitement of hate to people or groupings that's uncalled for.

[Kizzy]

what i said was correct though, and your response here is unfathomable to be honest.

Can I just say that similar justifications as you have made above were made on behalf of the nazi party in their day.

Open your eyes joey before you try and silence me again.

Joeys point is perfectly understandable, not sure why you can't comprehend it :/

You are aligning momentum with a fledgling nazi party? Joey has stated he fears being a Labour activist because some may not be able to differentiate between the two and accuse him of being a terrorist... youve just outed yourself as one if those people!

Open your eyes to what bots? What is it that you have heard or seen that makes you say momentum are nazis in the making? .. is it your secret source again?
Far from trying to silence you I'd like to hear all about it.

[Twosugars]

I find it interesting the way everyone dismissed my comment about momentum, but they are not much different in how they operate to the mafia the way they threaten people and intimidate them. They may not have killed anyone yet, but apart from one instance, neither have extreme right wingers.

Dismissed it bc it was ridiculous

Momentum is like any strong faction in any party.
It's hysterical to call them terrorists

I say that and I don't even like them

[Twosugars]

So far the remain produced a couple of milkshakings
The leave produced the jo Cox murderer

[Kizzy]

Yep there's been an explosion in right wing terrorist acts and plots to kill, Rosie Cooper MP was a victim of a foiled murder attempt just weeks ago! But it's ok, it's only one little murder.
Look at the left and their exuberant activism! :/ ...

[Twosugars]

Yep there's been an explosion in right wing terrorist acts and plots to kill, Rosie Cooper MP was a victim of a foiled murder attempt just weeks ago! But it's ok, it's only one little murder.
Look at the left and their exuberant activism! :/ ...

Forgot about this one, thanks Kizzy

Claiming equivalence between left and right rhetoric is not really objective

[jet]

I have said that it comes from both sides in the public sphere and social media...however I have made it very clear that in this thread I'm discussing the use of divisive and incendiary language in the house of commons only

I have asked which MP on the opposite benches ( not only labour) can be seen in the chamber to be using language similar to the PM that causes outrage derision and offence to fellow members?

I don't think he said anything outrageous.
I think his words were deliberately misinterpreted and milked for all they were worth to whip up emotionally charged feelings and THAT is far more dangerous that anything he actually said.

In an interview he said "I was sitting opposite people who were shouting all sorts of things at me all afternoon that were far harsher".

[Twosugars]

I don't think he said anything outrageous.
I think his words were deliberately misinterpreted and milked for all they were worth to whip up emotionally charged feelings and THAT is far more dangerous that anything he actually said.

In an interview he said "I was sitting opposite people who were shouting all sorts of things at me all afternoon that were far harsher".

Using words like surrender, war, capitulation is very dangerous
We are not at war with EU and our European neighbours

[arista]

Using words like surrender, war, capitulation is very dangerous
We are not at war with EU and our European neighbours

No war , yet
Johnson PM will continue to use surrender bill,
Though.

[jet]

Using words like surrender, war, capitulation is very dangerous
We are not at war with EU and our European neighbours

It's called 'robust political discussion' or a 'war of words' that have been going on for centuries in Parliament between parties. To try make out it is literally dangerous now to suit an agenda is absurd. People are losing all sense of perspective over this Brexit malarkey.
No guns or bombs involved.

[Twosugars]

No war , yet
Johnson PM will continue to use surrender bill,
Though.

Childish and dangerous at the same time

This guy is simply unsuited for the job

So much for uniting the country, pathetic

[arista]

Childish and dangerous at the same time

This guy is simply unsuited for the job

So much for uniting the country, pathetic


No I do not agree with you.

[Twosugars]

It's called 'robust political discussion' or a 'war of words' that have been going on for centuries in Parliament between parties. To try make out it is literally dangerous now to suit an agenda is absurd. People are losing all sense of perspective over this Brexit malarkey.
No guns or bombs involved.

Only one murder and one attempted murder

Not everybody has a sense of perspective, this language is asking for trouble in the current fevered atmosphere

[Twosugars]

No I do not agree with you.

Well time will tell

Wont be the first time you're wrong :hee:

[arista]

Well time will tell

Wont be the first time you're wrong :hee:


What are YOU on about

[Tom4784]

The Right Wing needs to be less concerned with false equivalency in making out that the left is just as bad and more concerned with standing against the extremism and terrorism that damages their political leaning.

Right Wing terrorism is a term that has Right Wing in it's name but that doesn't mean people should inadvertently defend it by making out that the other side is just as worse when it blatantly isn't.

[The Slim Reaper]

1177554071772958720

All normal. I'm sure the same people backed the Duggan riots a few years ago.

[jet]

Only one murder and one attempted murder

Not everybody has a sense of perspective, this language is asking for trouble in the current fevered atmosphere

Johnson was not responsible for those atrocities though.
I think going ape**** with faux outrage over words like surrender and capitulation and highlighting them by having them all over the news and the papers by so called responsible people who should have perspective is more worrying. Lets bring them to the attention of some nutter over and over again on continuous loop in case they missed it!
Lets advertise death threats and give some nutter ideas!
Yes, care is needed in these fevered times, by a PM and also by MP's who try to gain points by making a 10 course meal out of not much, and also by the media with their irresponsible journalism and hunger for shock! horror! headlines.

[Twosugars]

Johnson was not responsible for those atrocities though.
I think going ape**** with faux outrage over words like surrender and capitulation and highlighting them by having them all over the news and the papers by so called responsible people who should have perspective is more worrying. Lets bring them to the attention of some nutter over and over again on continuous loop in case they missed it!
Lets advertise death threats and give some nutter ideas!
Yes, care is needed in these fevered times, by a PM and also by MP's who try to gain points by making a 10 course meal out of not much, and also by the media with their irresponsible journalism and hunger for shock! horror! headlines.

:laugh:

Listen to yourself
Bojo and others use loaded words - that's ok
Others calling them out on it - not ok

This is what happens when logic dies

[Oliver_W]

:laugh:

Listen to yourself
Bojo and others use loaded words - that's ok
Others calling them out on it - not ok

This is what happens when logic dies

Call things out, sure. But none of the loaded words have quite reached the point of justifying the hysterical screeching and gammoning from the Opposition benches :joker:

[Alf]

Surrender act = They bad words

Bollox to Brexit =They ok

[Twosugars]

Call things out, sure. But none of the loaded words have quite reached the point of justifying the hysterical screeching and gammoning from the Opposition benches :joker:

It's the continuing descent into a wartime terminology by the leave politicians

Remainers are no traitors for wanting to stay in the EU

Desperate and losing sense of proportion

[Twosugars]

Surrender act = They bad words

Bollox to Brexit =They ok

Cant you see the difference?

No, you clearly can't....

The latter is voicing disagreement
The former is implying treachery

[jet]

:laugh:

Listen to yourself
Bojo and others use loaded words - that's ok
Others calling them out on it - not ok

This is what happens when logic dies

:nono:

I've never said they were okay exactly, but my goodness, the over - reaction has been ridiculous. Still, it has given the drama queens, the BBC, the gutter press a few days of something to smack their lips over.
Lets just hope the nutters weren't listening or watching...I doubt it though, it was impossible to miss...

[arista]

1177554071772958720

All normal. I'm sure the same people backed the Duggan riots a few years ago.

No Slim
that is now out of Date
He backtracked.


Rob Burley Editor/Executive Producer
Confirmed on Twitter

[Oliver_W]

It's the continuing descent into a wartime terminology by the leave politicians


I'm not really sure what you mean by this? What in particular?

[jet]

Call things out, sure. But none of the loaded words have quite reached the point of justifying the hysterical screeching and gammoning from the Opposition benches :joker:

:clap1:

[Alf]

It's the continuing descent into a wartime terminology by the leave politicians

Remainers are no traitors for wanting to stay in the EU

Desperate and losing sense of proportionDid you see what Brendan O'Neill said today?

He said he can't believe people haven't been rioting yet, and then said they should be.

[The Slim Reaper]

No Slim
that is now out of Date
He backtracked.


Rob Burley Editor/Executive Producer
Confirmed on Twitter

Yes Arista

When he realised
he might lose
his cushy gig

[Twosugars]

:nono:

I've never said they were okay exactly, but my goodness, the over - reaction has been ridiculous. Still, it has given the drama queens, the BBC, the gutter press a few days of something to smack their lips over.
Lets just hope the nutters weren't listening or watching...I doubt it though, it was impossible to miss...

The brexit press made sure those words were heard by all.
After all they invented some too: judges as enemies of the people, mps as traitors

There has been no overreaction but well overdue reaction
The slide into such terminology has been going on for a while now

[Twosugars]

I'm not really sure what you mean by this? What in particular?

War with eu, capitulation surrender eu as nazi Germany

Short memory?

[arista]

Yes Arista

When he realised
he might lose
his cushy gig



Yes
But you are Now GUILTY
of not giving tibb the Freaking FULL Story

[Oliver_W]

War with eu, capitulation surrender eu as nazi Germany

Short memory?

Oh I didn't hear about MPs comparing the EU to Nazi Germany, who was that?

[Twosugars]

Did you see what Brendan O'Neill said today?

He said he can't believe people haven't been rioting yet, and then said they should be.

Fighting the other half of the country?

You won by a tiny majority on the promise of a deal

Dont repeat hysterical words

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1177186262735892483/9ZUwvuVb?format=jpg&name=small

[Alf]

Fighting the other half of the country?

You won by a tiny majority on the promise of a deal

Dont repeat hysterical wordsI don't think Leavers problem is the other half of the Country, they've already beaten them, peacefully at the ballot box. I think it's more the Parliament, whom are supposed to be representing them, but don't seem to be doing so.

[Twosugars]

Oh I didn't hear about MPs comparing the EU to Nazi Germany, who was that?

Boris Johnson is standing by his comparison of the EU's aims to Hitler's, saying a row over the issue is an "artificial media twit storm".

The pro-Brexit Tory MP said both the Nazi leader and Napoleon had failed at unification and the EU was "an attempt to do this by different methods".

Shadow foreign secretary Hilary Benn, who backs Remain, said the comparison was "offensive and desperate".

Tory Leave campaigner Jacob Rees Mogg said Mr Johnson's analysis was correct.

BBC, 2016

[Twosugars]

I don't think Leavers problem is the other half of the Country, they've already beaten them, peacefully at the ballot box. I think it's more the Parliament, whom are supposed to be representing them, but don't seem to be doing so.

Incorrect

Parliament is making sure we have a deal, precisely as the leave side promised




“Taking back control is a careful change, not a sudden stop,” the campaign pledged. “We will negotiate the terms of a new deal before we start any legal process to leave.” The same campaign document—which can still be read on its website—also promised that the UK would be part of “a free trade zone from Iceland to Turkey and the Russian border.” If we leave without a deal—as those prominent Brexiteers are now advocating—that will be impossible.



http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/our_case.html

From the horse's mouth
Leave campaign own website

Lies from liars

[Oliver_W]

Boris Johnson is standing by his comparison of the EU's aims to Hitler's, saying a row over the issue is an "artificial media twit storm".

The pro-Brexit Tory MP said both the Nazi leader and Napoleon had failed at unification and the EU was "an attempt to do this by different methods".

Shadow foreign secretary Hilary Benn, who backs Remain, said the comparison was "offensive and desperate".

Tory Leave campaigner Jacob Rees Mogg said Mr Johnson's analysis was correct.

BBC, 2016
I didn't hear of this specific incident, but both the EU and Hitler want(/ed) to unite the continent as one superstate, so it's not an insane comparison.

[Twosugars]

I didn't hear of this specific incident, but both the EU and Hitler want(/ed) to unite the continent as one superstate, so it's not an insane comparison.

Yup
One man wants to better his life so he goes to uni
Another one wants to better his life so he murders his annoying wife

Both want the same so it's not an insane comparison


Ollie, you can do better, don't descend to insanity
You can still support your brexit without that

[The Slim Reaper]

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/09/27/week-in-review-both-sides-niceties-neutralise-anti-abuse-cam

'Both sides'. It's one of the most pernicious phrases in modern politics. It sounds so reasonable. But what it does is not reasonable. It aims to prevent the allocation of blame and the diagnosis of problems.

Since Boris Johnson waded into the Commons on Wednesday and promoted a nightmare agenda of division and hatred, we've heard a lot about 'both sides'.

"There are members on both sides of the House and both sides of the Brexit argument who have been personally threatened and whose families have been threatened," Speaker John Bercow said during the debate. That's been eagerly taken up. Every time a Brexiter touches on this subject, they never fail to point out that 'both sides' are responsible for abuse. There are "serious threats" of violence against both sides, Dominic Cummings, the mastermind behind Johnson's bullying strategy, insisted yesterday,

The problem with 'both sides ' is not that it is completely false. There is some truth to it. Jacob Rees-Mogg has had his private home targeted by activists, for instance. Brexiter MPs are sometimes shouted at when they walk from parliament to College Green to do TV interviews.

Admittedly, it is occasionally flagrantly nonsensical. On Newsnight on Wednesday night, Tory MP Bernard Jenkins tried to compare the death threats MPs receive to the strain Boris Johnson is under. Brexit campaigner Isabel Oakshott asked why it was OK to be outraged by abuse but still call Johnson a "liar" or a "racist".

This is how it always goes with the subject of abuse. For a few fleeting moments you feel a sense of hope, like the spotlight being shone on it might actually lead to change. But then things start to dribble away.

It begins with the comments about 'both sides', then it moves on to straight-up whataboutery. And before you know it, the whole thing has been neutralised. Nothing can be changed, because everyone is culpable. It becomes a failure of the human condition rather than a kind of political behaviour footed in specific circumstances and the actions of individuals.

The whataboutery is not worth considering. It is OK to call people racist when they make racist comments and liars when they lie. That is a critical description, not abuse. Only a fool would conflate them.

The 'both sides' argument is stronger. It has a kind of colouring-in quality. It takes lots of different comments in different contexts and makes them appear the same.

But they are not the same. They are distinct. And it is by spotting what makes them distinct that you might possibly come to a way of minimising them.

Remainers are responsible for some abuse, there's no doubt about it. It's much parroted but true that they can instinctively think of all Leavers as racists. And the frustration over watching intellectual arguments about trade or security be ignored means they very often treat all Leavers as stupid. Sometimes the online Remain movement targets Brexit supporters with the grim dehumanising tactic of pile-ons. It's grim and it shouldn't happen.

Labour have a significant problems with abuse too. Its online presence is a nest of angry entitled horrors, full of people who see any deviation from the true path as heresy.

The powerful moral argument of the left, particularly since the 2008 crash, has created a kind of justificatory instinct for abuse. Have people died as a result of austerity? Yes. Was it necessary? No. These facts activate a sense of moral fury. And they allow some parts of the Labour movement to treat any opponent as a kind of murderous, cold-hearted monster.

The Corbynites' emphasis on media control and 'dark money' - both arguments have a strain of truth in them, but are massively overstated - means they treat opponents not as people who think differently but as agents of a hostile political camp operating under a cloak of deception: liars with bad motives.

Brexit abuse comes from a completely different place. It was there right from the beginning. The public were split into two groups: the people and the elite. Neither of these categories exist in real life. You might as well call them goodies and baddies. They were then set to war with one another. Cummings was the chief orchestrator of this in the campaign and he is the chief orchestrator of it now.

It didn't need to be this way. Brexit could have been discussed, and even implemented, as a fundamentally logistical exercise. But once that happened, the case grew weak. So instead it was turned into culture war. It was about out-of-touch metropolitan elites and the left-behind real people, even though most of its advocates were wealthy and made these comments from London. Those who opposed it were treated as traitors. Immigrants were treated as a threat. The core functions of a liberal society, including the judiciary and parliament, were treated as sabotage agents.

Almost as soon as it came into existence, it showed how dangerous it was. Jo Cox was stabbed to death during the campaign by a man chanting "Britain first". Yesterday, a man tried to break into the constituency office of the Labour MP Jo Phillips. Jolyon Maughn, who helped bring the case against the government's suspension of parliament, confirmed he now has extra security around his home and was advised to wear a stab vest.

No.10 threatens it for the future. Yesterday, an unnamed source - presumably Cummings - revelled in the fact a second referendum would be "one massive campaign of total abuse".

The links are clear and uncontroversial. As Phillips said, the abuse often uses the exact same language the prime minister uses: Surrender, betrayal, and the rest of his nakedly cynical lexicon. As Lib Dem MP Luciana Berger pointed out, Johnson's comments in parliament are often clipped and then put online on far-right Brexiter networks.

The Brexiter abuse is not just different by quality. It is different by severity. It rides roughshod over everything. No matter what you might think of Corbynism, it is not trying to attack the institution of parliament.

The Brexit movement daily attacks parliament with the illogical and degenerate slur that it is somehow against the people who elected it. It attacks the judiciary for ruling that parliament must be protected, with Brexit commentators in politics and the media demanding to know the voting record of judges, branding it a "coup" or threatening to publish the addresses of those involved in the case.

'Both sides' are not doing this. Could we really credibly claim that, if the result had gone the other way, Remainers would have spent this week attacking the independence of the judiciary? It's absurd. We need to be honest about what different groups are doing if we want to address what is happening.

The Brexiter abuse is also different by status. It comes from the very top, from the highest position in the land. Vote Leave unleashed the most poisonous rhetoric seen in British politics in our lifetime. And now it has been installed at the heart of government, with all the validation and respectability that affords.

The 'both sides' talk is not reasonable. The reasonable thing is to stop abuse before it turns into violence. That's what reasonable looks like: identifying the potential for trouble and acting to prevent it. By reverting to this 'both sides' argument, we are preventing targeted action against abuse and therefore making it more likely that violence will follow.

It is the Brexit movement which is challenging the fundamental underpinnings of liberal democracy. It is the prime minister who is actively whipping up hatred because he thinks it might win him an election. He is doing that. He is responsible.

[Twosugars]

:clap1: TSR

[Twosugars]

Police in Lewes in East Sussex are investigating a spate of suspected hate crimes committed overnight on Thursday, including the bricking of an anti-Brexit campaigner’s window, antisemitic graffiti on a garden fence and Nazi symbols daubed on a house.

Eugene Gill woke up to find a half brick had been thrown through his kitchen window where he was displaying a “Stop Brexit” poster, residents in The Avenue found “**** the Jews Soros’s *****s Traitor’s [sic]” sprayed in 2ft-high red letters along a fence, and a wall on Paddock Close was sprayed with the slogan: “Save Old Sussex Kill a DFL SOS” with the S’s written in the style of the Nazi SS logo. DFL is a derogatory term for someone who has moved down from London to the South Downs market town
Gill said the attacker struck his kitchen window at 1.20am but he could not see who it was when he went into the dark street.

“The brick was on the worktop and scrawled on it was the word ‘traitor’ on one side and on the other ‘stop this brick’,” he said. While his son was very upset, he said he was not intimidated.

“We are heading towards an environment where this is the norm,” he said. “It’s being built up with this language about surrender. [In parliament on Wednesday] Boris Johnson looked like a school bully, goading. It’s disgusting. The timing is relevant because I have had the poster up since May.”

A spokesperson for Sussex police said: “The three incidents are being treated as politically motivated and are believed to be linked.”

Lewes voted 52% to remain in the 2016 EU referendum, but re-elected a pro-Brexit Conservative MP, Maria Caulfield, in 2017.

Pam Thurschwell, 53, a Jewish resident, said: “What goes on on the streets and what goes on in parliament are not separate. We have a divided country and this is the fallout. I feel like we are in some version of Germany. This is not about my Jewishness, it’s happening to everyone in this country and it is chilling. There is a problem in No 10 and everybody needs to calm down.”

“Lewes is known for being a creative and open market town,” said Oli Henman, the Liberal Democrat parliamentary candidate for Lewes. “But some people have been left behind and have been deliberately targeted by the Brexit messaging and have gone along with the notion of blaming outsiders. Boris Johnson’s recent language has served to reduce trust in our democracy and intensify divisions, creating an uncivil atmosphere which emboldens extremist views.”

The Guardian


Here we are.

[Kizzy]

It's called 'robust political discussion' or a 'war of words' that have been going on for centuries in Parliament between parties. To try make out it is literally dangerous now to suit an agenda is absurd. People are losing all sense of perspective over this Brexit malarkey.
No guns or bombs involved.

There was a gun involved..it killed Jo Cox, it was mentioned a couple of days ago, you may have missed it.

[Kizzy]

:clap1: TSR

I'll add my :clap1: to yours ..oof tsr bet you had a lie down in a dark room after that one, nice post! :)

[Vicky.]

:nono:

I've never said they were okay exactly, but my goodness, the over - reaction has been ridiculous. Still, it has given the drama queens, the BBC, the gutter press a few days of something to smack their lips over.
Lets just hope the nutters weren't listening or watching...I doubt it though, it was impossible to miss...

Erm, I know I said I was done with this thread, but lurking and reading this am..well astounded that such attitudes exist in this day and age? So, the problematic language being used in the first place, not exactly ok but whatever. But those reporting on it, and discussing how it is problematic, are the ones who will bring it to the attention of nutters. So, if/when there is an attack, its officially the fault of those who were against such language being used, as they spoke about it? Rather than letting it all pass with no comment, which would be basically condoning it and even possibly empowering those doing wrong to do it even more as noone has an issue with it. So, condone/ignore 'bad behaviour' else its your fault if 'something bad' happens?!

Just..wow. Tbh.

And I also am not really on the 'right bad, left good!' side either, as you will see by my posts in here before leaving. But this post really got to me for some reason..just seeing the justification process that those willing to blame anyone but the one at fault use to convince themselves (and possibly others) that its really the others at fault, not the one who did it in the first place..really. Fascinating.


Editing to add: Mind thinking about it, ignoring Boris' 'bad behaviour' completely might possibly work to shut him up a bit, given the majority of stuff he says I figure he does it specifically for the attention it brings him. Like an overgrown child, just desperate for a reaction..hmm.

[bots]

someone talked about it earlier, but the HoC does remind me a lot of BB at the moment with people playing up to the camera knowing exactly what to do to get a reaction. It's just a pity we don't get the chance to evict every week

[Kizzy]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/billy-charlton-sunderland-justice-rape-campaign-tommy-robinson-brexit-a9123376.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-parliament-debate-jo-cox-death-brexit-tommy-robinson-a9121201.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/far-right-jailed-leeds-bomb-manuals-building-pawel-golaszewski-a9113396.html

[jet]

Erm, I know I said I was done with this thread, but lurking and reading this am..well astounded that such attitudes exist in this day and age? So, the problematic language being used in the first place, not exactly ok but whatever. But those reporting on it, and discussing how it is problematic, are the ones who will bring it to the attention of nutters. So, if/when there is an attack, its officially the fault of those who were against such language being used, as they spoke about it? Rather than letting it all pass with no comment, which would be basically condoning it and even possibly empowering those doing wrong to do it even more as noone has an issue with it. So, condone/ignore 'bad behaviour' else its your fault if 'something bad' happens?!

Just..wow. Tbh.

And I also am not really on the 'right bad, left good!' side either, as you will see by my posts in here before leaving. But this post really got to me for some reason..just seeing the justification process that those willing to blame anyone but the one at fault use to convince themselves (and possibly others) that its really the others at fault, not the one who did it in the first place..really. Fascinating.


Editing to add: Mind thinking about it, ignoring Boris' 'bad behaviour' completely might possibly work to shut him up a bit, given the majority of stuff he says I figure he does it specifically for the attention it brings him. Like an overgrown child, just desperate for a reaction..hmm.

Nope Vicky, don't ignore it and don't condone it. By all means condemn and report it. Just don't run with it over and over on a loop on TV and in the media and on Twitter etc etc until people get acclimatised and numbed by it and some attention seeking nutter wants a piece of the action.
Over - reaction is as bad as no action imo. If everyone is to calm it down, perspective is everything.

[jet]

I admit the problem for me too is the hypocrisy of condemning an instance of inciteful language on continuous loop as if it it was something brand new and those doing the condemning were lily white. It's like using Johnson as the scapegoat for what has gone before when it has been happening continuously on both 'sides' of the political arena. I'm not a Boris fan but I really don't like witch hunts.


During Wednesday's heated exchanges in the Commons, that didn't stop Labour MP Paula Sherriff from describing Boris Johnson's language as 'offensive, dangerous and inflammatory' — all because he had described Parliament's demand that he seek another extension from the EU as the 'Surrender Act'.
But if the Left really cares about offensive and inflammatory remarks, it need only look at its own — as the shocking callousness of Mr Corbyn's supposedly 'gentle' supporters shown here demonstrates.


'I should have come down here with a bat and smashed your face in.'
Former Shadow International Development Secretary Kate Osamor talking last year to a reporter from The Times who had asked her for a comment on a story about her employing her son in her parliamentary office. She threw a bucket of water over the reporter, told him to '******* off' and rang the police to accuse him of stalking her.

'The day that... you are hurting us more than you are helping us, I won't knife you in the back, I'll knife you in the front.'
Labour MP Jess Phillips on Jeremy Corbyn in 2015 — using violent language in spite of condemning John McDonnell for using it. Yesterday, she criticised the Prime Minister for using language that inflamed 'hatred and division'.

'Just watched The Riot Club and it's genuinely left me wanting to burn every single Oxford college to the ground... preferably with every single Tory MP inside one at the time. The Conservative Party is a cancer on this country.'
Labour councillor Owen Collins, writing earlier this month. He later apologised.

'You can ******* all the way off. Then, just when you think you've ********* off as much as it's possible to ******* off, I'm gonna need you to dig deep and ******* off a little bit more.'
Kerry-Anne Mendoza, editor of the Corbyn-supporting Canary website, responding to a suggestion by Tony Blair's former spin doctor Alastair Campbell that he might return to Labour following his expulsion earlier this year.

'There was a whole group in the audience that completely kicked off ... they were arguing, 'Why are we sacking her? Why aren't we lynching the bitch?' '
Shadow Chancellor John McDonnell, discussing a 'sack Esther McVey day' organised in 2014 by Labour activists opposed to the then Cabinet minister. Fellow Labour MP Jess Phillips said the comments were 'utterly despicable'.

'It's about time we started honouring those people involved in the armed struggle. It was the bombs and bullets and sacrifice made by the likes of Bobby Sands that brought Britain to the negotiating table. The peace we have now is due to the action of the IRA.'
John McDonnell again, using his blog to 'honour' IRA terrorists in 2015.

'My answer is hate… make the Left hate again. I'm full of hate these days.'
Dr Paolo Gerbaudo, a lecturer at King's College, London, at a conference of Corbyn-supporting Momentum in 2017.

'Mr Cameron has known pain and failure in his life but it has always been limited failure and privileged pain... had he been trying to get the system to look after a dying parent rather than a dying child, he might have understood a little of the damage that his policies have done.'
Guardian editorial published online this month. After an outcry, the words were removed and the paper apologised. But it was not the first time a Guardian writer had used the death of David Cameron's son Ivan to score political points
.
'Sit down, you *******.'
Andrew Stafford, a longstanding Labour councillor in Enfield, North London, speaking to a young Conservative during a 2015 debate. He apologised but rejected calls to step down.

'Drive-by shooting.'
Deputy Leader Tom Watson at the Labour conference this week, responding to Jon Lansman's attempt to abolish his position.

'They don't understand English irony.'
Jeremy Corbyn, discussing 'British Zionists' in 2013. The Chief Rabbi described the Labour leader's comments as the most disgraceful made by a senior politician since Enoch Powell's infamous 'rivers of blood' speech in 1968.

'[David Cameron] uses stories about his dead son as misty-eyed rhetoric to legitimise selling our NHS to his friends.'
Guardian commentator and food writer Jack Monroe in a 2014 tweet. She was disowned by Sainsbury's as the face of an advertising campaign but insisted: 'I stand by comment the PM uses his experience.'

'We will have a hell of a time. We will have comedians on and bands and we are going to enjoy ourselves. There will be a lot of men wanting to have a drink and celebrate.'
David Hopper, General Secretary of the Durham Miners' Association, speaking after the death of Lady Thatcher in 2013.

'He surrendered to the Brexit Party and he's ready to surrender our NHS to Donald Trump.'
Frances O'Grady, General Secretary of the Trades Union Congress (TUC), talking about Boris Johnson in her speech to the TUC earlier this month. Not very offensive in itself, yet it uses the same word — 'surrendered' — which Labour MPs yesterday claimed was 'inflammatory' when the Prime Minister himself used it.

'People often ask us what it is that makes us tick — it's Boris Johnson's head upon a stick, stick, stick.'
A mob of Left-wing supporters holding signs demanding 'Tories out' in a video published online last month.

Were using the words 'Surrender and 'Capitulation' really horrific enough for that lady to lash out at him publicly using the awful atrocity of Jo Coxes death to beat him with?

And for the record I don't want a no deal either in case my thoughts are interpreted as me being a rabid leaver.

[Twosugars]

The army and police are investigating after a soldier sent a death threat to the shadow education secretary, Angela Rayner, defence officials have said.

The commander of the British field army, Lt Gen Ivan Jones, and the defence secretary, Ben Wallace, denounced the message, which was posted on Twitter on Wednesday, as MPs pleaded with the prime minister to tone down his Brexit rhetoric, saying they feared it would incite violence against them.

Posting an image of the message online on Thursday, Rayner said it was just an example of the “usual vile tweet I get daily”. It read that she will “perish when civil war comes”, suggesting that people who voted for Brexit would be “gunning for blood if we don’t leave”.

Jones apologised and confirmed his belief that the tweet was posted by a serving soldier.
The Guardian

Here we go again

[jet]

We are living in awful times. :bawling:

[Ammi]

...I think with Boris, it extends beyond any incitement of words...it’s how his words combine with his actions, for me...he has placed himself and his ego above the law...the law which is the foundation of our society...the law which in these ‘uncertain times’ the country needs more than ever...but he defies and manipulates that law and while he’s doing that, his ‘contingency report’ is showing that his manipulation and lies are to those who support him as well...he’s way beyond any level of weighty words...others in parliament may have used incite full language also..and that’s never to be condoned in any way whatsoever...wrong is wrong is wrong and very unwise and careless...but Boris Johnson combines so many more dangerous things with his words and his lies, sadly...and that cannot or should not be ignored...

[Cherie]

someone talked about it earlier, but the HoC does remind me a lot of BB at the moment with people playing up to the camera knowing exactly what to do to get a reaction. It's just a pity we don't get the chance to evict every week

Parliament is worse than panto now, wouldn’t surprise me if they start releasing viewing stats :laugh:

[smudgie]

Parliament is worse than panto now, wouldn’t surprise me if they start releasing viewing stats :laugh:

They already did.
Massive increase when parliament went back.

[Alf]

...I think with Boris, it extends beyond any incitement of words...it’s how his words combine with his actions, for me...he has placed himself and his ego above the law...the law which is the foundation of our society...the law which in these ‘uncertain times’ the country needs more than ever...but he defies and manipulates that law and while he’s doing that, his ‘contingency report’ is showing that his manipulation and lies are to those who support him as well...he’s way beyond any level of weighty words...others in parliament may have used incite full language also..and that’s never to be condoned in any way whatsoever...wrong is wrong is wrong and very unwise and careless...but Boris Johnson combines so many more dangerous things with his words and his lies, sadly...and that cannot or should not be ignored...His words are absolutely fine, not a thing wrong with them, it's the reaction to them that's the problem. People trying to make something out of nothing.

[Kizzy]

Were using the words 'Surrender and 'Capitulation' really horrific enough for that lady to lash out at him publicly using the awful atrocity of Jo Coxes death to beat him with?

And for the record I don't want a no deal either in case my thoughts are interpreted as me being a rabid leaver.

Was her distressed request really horrific enough that you intimate they are akin to actual violence?

Why wouldn't they raise that tragedy?
If MPs are receiving death threats, knowing Jo Cox was actually murdered by an extreme right wing terrorist, when the actual words of the PM are being used in the threats they receive from right wing extremists.

Why is it wrong to suggest a correlation that his use of language is having a direct impact and potentially putting the lives of MPs at risk?

I don't believe the bumbling denials by him that his words are of no consequence, he's well aware of the power of rhetoric. Which can only mean that in the last desperate push for no deal he just doesn't care at this point what actions his words inspire.

[Kizzy]

His words are absolutely fine, not a thing wrong with them, it's the reaction to them that's the problem. People trying to make something out of nothing.

Ah... Yes exactly, it's the reaction to them that's the problem! Thank you for agreeing with my point alf.

If they are fine and it's nothing then why are the extremists reacting to them by quoting them back to mps in their threats?

[Alf]

Ah... Yes exactly, it's the reaction to them that's the problem! Thank you for agreeing with my point alf.

If they are fine and it's nothing then why are the extremists reacting to them by quoting them back to mps in their threats?You might have jumped to the wrong conclusions there. It's the likes of Jess Phillips, and others, that only know how to play the victim that are magnifying anything Boris says, for their regular victimhood fix.

[Kizzy]

You might have jumped to the wrong conclusions there. It's the likes of Jess Phillips, and others, that only know how to play the victim that are magnifying anything Boris says, for their regular victimhood fix.

Nope, you can walk around with your fingers in your ears if you like but the 'people v parliament ' tub thumping is being ramped up..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/27/defiant-johnson-will-not-tone-down-rhetoric-tory-conference-brexit-manifesto-corbyn

[joeysteele]

https://www.politics.co.uk/blogs/2019/09/27/week-in-review-both-sides-niceties-neutralise-anti-abuse-cam

'Both sides'. It's one of the most pernicious phrases in modern politics. It sounds so reasonable. But what it does is not reasonable. It aims to prevent the allocation of blame and the diagnosis of problems.

Since Boris Johnson waded into the Commons on Wednesday and promoted a nightmare agenda of division and hatred, we've heard a lot about 'both sides'.

"There are members on both sides of the House and both sides of the Brexit argument who have been personally threatened and whose families have been threatened," Speaker John Bercow said during the debate. That's been eagerly taken up. Every time a Brexiter touches on this subject, they never fail to point out that 'both sides' are responsible for abuse. There are "serious threats" of violence against both sides, Dominic Cummings, the mastermind behind Johnson's bullying strategy, insisted yesterday,

The problem with 'both sides ' is not that it is completely false. There is some truth to it. Jacob Rees-Mogg has had his private home targeted by activists, for instance. Brexiter MPs are sometimes shouted at when they walk from parliament to College Green to do TV interviews.

Admittedly, it is occasionally flagrantly nonsensical. On Newsnight on Wednesday night, Tory MP Bernard Jenkins tried to compare the death threats MPs receive to the strain Boris Johnson is under. Brexit campaigner Isabel Oakshott asked why it was OK to be outraged by abuse but still call Johnson a "liar" or a "racist".

This is how it always goes with the subject of abuse. For a few fleeting moments you feel a sense of hope, like the spotlight being shone on it might actually lead to change. But then things start to dribble away.

It begins with the comments about 'both sides', then it moves on to straight-up whataboutery. And before you know it, the whole thing has been neutralised. Nothing can be changed, because everyone is culpable. It becomes a failure of the human condition rather than a kind of political behaviour footed in specific circumstances and the actions of individuals.

The whataboutery is not worth considering. It is OK to call people racist when they make racist comments and liars when they lie. That is a critical description, not abuse. Only a fool would conflate them.

The 'both sides' argument is stronger. It has a kind of colouring-in quality. It takes lots of different comments in different contexts and makes them appear the same.

But they are not the same. They are distinct. And it is by spotting what makes them distinct that you might possibly come to a way of minimising them.

Remainers are responsible for some abuse, there's no doubt about it. It's much parroted but true that they can instinctively think of all Leavers as racists. And the frustration over watching intellectual arguments about trade or security be ignored means they very often treat all Leavers as stupid. Sometimes the online Remain movement targets Brexit supporters with the grim dehumanising tactic of pile-ons. It's grim and it shouldn't happen.

Labour have a significant problems with abuse too. Its online presence is a nest of angry entitled horrors, full of people who see any deviation from the true path as heresy.

The powerful moral argument of the left, particularly since the 2008 crash, has created a kind of justificatory instinct for abuse. Have people died as a result of austerity? Yes. Was it necessary? No. These facts activate a sense of moral fury. And they allow some parts of the Labour movement to treat any opponent as a kind of murderous, cold-hearted monster.

The Corbynites' emphasis on media control and 'dark money' - both arguments have a strain of truth in them, but are massively overstated - means they treat opponents not as people who think differently but as agents of a hostile political camp operating under a cloak of deception: liars with bad motives.

Brexit abuse comes from a completely different place. It was there right from the beginning. The public were split into two groups: the people and the elite. Neither of these categories exist in real life. You might as well call them goodies and baddies. They were then set to war with one another. Cummings was the chief orchestrator of this in the campaign and he is the chief orchestrator of it now.

It didn't need to be this way. Brexit could have been discussed, and even implemented, as a fundamentally logistical exercise. But once that happened, the case grew weak. So instead it was turned into culture war. It was about out-of-touch metropolitan elites and the left-behind real people, even though most of its advocates were wealthy and made these comments from London. Those who opposed it were treated as traitors. Immigrants were treated as a threat. The core functions of a liberal society, including the judiciary and parliament, were treated as sabotage agents.

Almost as soon as it came into existence, it showed how dangerous it was. Jo Cox was stabbed to death during the campaign by a man chanting "Britain first". Yesterday, a man tried to break into the constituency office of the Labour MP Jo Phillips. Jolyon Maughn, who helped bring the case against the government's suspension of parliament, confirmed he now has extra security around his home and was advised to wear a stab vest.

No.10 threatens it for the future. Yesterday, an unnamed source - presumably Cummings - revelled in the fact a second referendum would be "one massive campaign of total abuse".

The links are clear and uncontroversial. As Phillips said, the abuse often uses the exact same language the prime minister uses: Surrender, betrayal, and the rest of his nakedly cynical lexicon. As Lib Dem MP Luciana Berger pointed out, Johnson's comments in parliament are often clipped and then put online on far-right Brexiter networks.

The Brexiter abuse is not just different by quality. It is different by severity. It rides roughshod over everything. No matter what you might think of Corbynism, it is not trying to attack the institution of parliament.

The Brexit movement daily attacks parliament with the illogical and degenerate slur that it is somehow against the people who elected it. It attacks the judiciary for ruling that parliament must be protected, with Brexit commentators in politics and the media demanding to know the voting record of judges, branding it a "coup" or threatening to publish the addresses of those involved in the case.

'Both sides' are not doing this. Could we really credibly claim that, if the result had gone the other way, Remainers would have spent this week attacking the independence of the judiciary? It's absurd. We need to be honest about what different groups are doing if we want to address what is happening.

The Brexiter abuse is also different by status. It comes from the very top, from the highest position in the land. Vote Leave unleashed the most poisonous rhetoric seen in British politics in our lifetime. And now it has been installed at the heart of government, with all the validation and respectability that affords.

The 'both sides' talk is not reasonable. The reasonable thing is to stop abuse before it turns into violence. That's what reasonable looks like: identifying the potential for trouble and acting to prevent it. By reverting to this 'both sides' argument, we are preventing targeted action against abuse and therefore making it more likely that violence will follow.

It is the Brexit movement which is challenging the fundamental underpinnings of liberal democracy. It is the prime minister who is actively whipping up hatred because he thinks it might win him an election. He is doing that. He is responsible.



A fascinating read all through slimreaper.
Really strong.
Thank you for it.

[Alf]

I think it's amazing how tolerant Leavers are, or the UK in general for that matter. If this was in France, they'd have been a violent revolution by now.

[Alf]

Nope, you can walk around with your fingers in your ears if you like but the 'people v parliament ' tub thumping is being ramped up..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/27/defiant-johnson-will-not-tone-down-rhetoric-tory-conference-brexit-manifesto-corbynBeing ramped up by who?

The people voted out, the Parliament has yet to implement it and are actively trying to overturn the result of the people.

I'd say it's definitely the people vs not just Parliament, but all the elites, including the mainstream media and academia.

If they'd have just done what they were told to do when they asked us, we wouldn't be having this discussion now.

[Alf]

If they build the narrative that the people are violent, then they can push for Police brutality against them for keeping people in line.

But as I said, the people have been so tolerant so far, while others are trying to silence what they say, and the people don't seem to be biting on the bait, yet.

[Alf]

There is no debate on Brexit, the debate is over. Both sides made their case over 3 years ago, and we decided to leave, but some people won't accept the result. That's not a debate, that's an attempted coup.

[Alf]

MPs have brought Parliament in to disrepute, the corporate media has brought journalism in to disrepute, and the Supreme Court has brought the law into disrepute. All in an attempt to deny the people what they voted for.

What a political education this has been for millions of us.

[jet]

Was her distressed request really horrific enough that you intimate they are akin to actual violence?

Why wouldn't they raise that tragedy?
If MPs are receiving death threats, knowing Jo Cox was actually murdered by an extreme right wing terrorist, when the actual words of the PM are being used in the threats they receive from right wing extremists.

Why is it wrong to suggest a correlation that his use of language is having a direct impact and potentially putting the lives of MPs at risk?

I don't believe the bumbling denials by him that his words are of no consequence, he's well aware of the power of rhetoric. Which can only mean that in the last desperate push for no deal he just doesn't care at this point what actions his words inspire.

You are seriously taking my descriptive words literally? The hysteria is real….

Nowhere did I imply that the lady’s request was horrific - you did that - just inappropriate in the hothouse atmosphere of that day. The lady could have spoken to Johnson in private about her fears, not waited until she had camera time with a planned attack. Yelling angrily at someone in public and trying to embarrass them with a baying crowd egging you on is not the way to achieve your aim and make someone see the error of their ways. All it does is put their back up, give you attention, and make divisions worse.
A quiet plea in private would have had been the way to go with a subject so very serious. Grandstanding, however heartfelt, was not.

[The Slim Reaper]

MPs have brought Parliament in to disrepute, the corporate media has brought journalism in to disrepute, and the Supreme Court has brought the law into disrepute. All in an attempt to deny the people what they voted for.

What a political education this has been for millions of us.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFidN3UXYAE6FP_?format=jpg&name=900x900

You keep going on about this, but you fail to address the glaringly obvious counterpoint. Namely, that leave meant different things to pretty much every voter. The graphic is directly from leave means leave, and yet only 69% want a no deal, which means that's 5,397,330 of leavers that don't want to leave with a no deal.

There is no mandate for no deal, because this means that only 11 of the 33.5 million voters want a no deal. It's really basic maths. You go on about betrayal of the people whilst simultaneously claiming that 33% of all voters should get want they want over 66% of the voters.

[joeysteele]

I doubt no more than a minority of voters want to stop brexit in light of the referendum.
There are voters who would like a new vote via a referendum to now direct how we leave.

If those who voted leave are that certain 100%, the voters, not the Country as a whole, still want to leave why fear a confirmatory vote on a deal or remain.

Or, instead of remain, a vote on a deal or no deal.

If the leave side is certain all leave voters, would support a no deal brexit, then what is their fear.

Since 2015, if an election is held this year, in 4 years the voters will have then been asked 3 times between 2015 to 2019 if they wished to change their minds on what parliament is elected.

Why not take this issue back for confirmation of REALLY did they vote, as was said for an easy smooth deal scenario or for the thought never possible no deal scenario.

If leave supporters are sure they are right.
The voters still solid to leave.

Why are they content to vote 3 times in the last 4+ years re general elections.
However not to just as what scenario of leaving they really did think, and were, voting for.

I'd be happy to see a referendum held on just May's agreement or for no deal.
Remain not an option on the ballot paper even.
Yet I voted remain.

Only the Lib Dems advocate now remaining with no reference back to voters.
They've always been the Party fully committed to the EU however.

A referendum is really likely the only compromise.
A general election should never be about just one issue.
What of another virtually unchanged parliament resulting in being hung again.

Another election, next year or the year after.

I've hated the thought of a new referendum, however clarification and confirmation how and with what we leave.
I now feel is the only rational and easiest way to resolve this.

[The Slim Reaper]

Wagons are circling.

1177671905542885376

[Kizzy]

Being ramped up by who?

The people voted out, the Parliament has yet to implement it and are actively trying to overturn the result of the people.

I'd say it's definitely the people vs not just Parliament, but all the elites, including the mainstream media and academia.

If they'd have just done what they were told to do when they asked us, we wouldn't be having this discussion now.
See... his words are working you actively think that parliament are working against you, that was the aim and he's succeeded. Parliament are now the enemy to be overcome, that is the divisive rhetoric that was railed against this week made flesh.

[Kizzy]

You are seriously taking my descriptive words literally? The hysteria is real….

Nowhere did I imply that the lady’s request was horrific - you did that - just inappropriate in the hothouse atmosphere of that day. The lady could have spoken to Johnson in private about her fears, not waited until she had camera time with a planned attack. Yelling angrily at someone in public and trying to embarrass them with a baying crowd egging you on is not the way to achieve your aim and make someone see the error of their ways. All it does is put their back up, give you attention, and make divisions worse.
A quiet plea in private would have had been the way to go with a subject so very serious. Grandstanding was not.

The whole argument is based on the use of descriptive language jet.. it's a running theme.

You asked were the PMs words horrific enough to warrant the backlash, I simply flipped that to ask if the MPs words were horrific enough to warrant your condemnation?

How could she know what language he was going to use, how could she and others who calmly asked him to temper his word know how he would react...
It's a debate chamber, that's what they do there, they don't drag each other to the side for quiet chats.

It was emotive, being given death threats would I think make you emotional, especially if you express your fears to the person who is exacerbating the problem but who also happens to be the leader of the country..and they react with 'humbug'

[Alf]

See... his words are working you actively think that parliament are working against you, that was the aim and he's succeeded. Parliament are now the enemy to be overcome, that is the divisive rhetoric that was railed against this week made flesh.It's not Boris's words that are working on me, it's the actual actions of the people who are trying to overturn and undermine the people's decision.

Actions speak louder than words.

[Kizzy]

It's not Boris's words that are working on me, it's the actual actions of the people who are trying to overturn and undermine the people's decision.

Actions speak louder than words.

Where did the term people v parliament come from?

[The Slim Reaper]

It's not Boris's words that are working on me, it's the actual actions of the people who are trying to overturn and undermine the people's decision.

Actions speak louder than words.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the post I made some moments ago.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFidN3UXYAE6FP_?format=jpg&name=900x900

You keep going on about this, but you fail to address the glaringly obvious counterpoint. Namely, that leave meant different things to pretty much every voter. The graphic is directly from leave means leave, and yet only 69% want a no deal, which means that's 5,397,330 of leavers that don't want to leave with a no deal.

There is no mandate for no deal, because this means that only 11 of the 33.5 million voters want a no deal. It's really basic maths. You go on about betrayal of the people whilst simultaneously claiming that 33% of all voters should get want they want over 66% of the voters.

[Kizzy]

Wagons are circling.

1177671905542885376

Good! He wanted to be prime minister ...if you're not squeaky clean your dodgy dealings will come back to bite you on the arse.
Let's see him bumble his way through this one.

[Alf]

I refer the honourable gentleman to the post I made some moments ago.Leave didn't mean anything other than what it said on the tin. It meant leave.

We were asked. Do you want to remain in the EU or to leave the EU?

We decided to leave, so just leave and then you can't start arguing about it. But until then, you don't have a leg to stand on.and you're just coming across as spoilt brats who want their own way.

[Alf]

Where did the term people v parliament come from?It's been around a very, very long time, before Boris was even born.

[arista]

It's been around a very, very long time, before Boris was even born.


how nice

[The Slim Reaper]

Leave didn't mean anything other than what it said on the tin. It meant leave.

We were asked. Do you want to remain in the EU or to leave the EU?

We decided to leave, so just leave and then you can't start arguing about it. But until then, you don't have a leg to stand on.and you're just coming across as spoilt brats who want their own way.

That's just not true though and everybody knows this. Find me one interview where a leave campaigner was setting out no deal as not only an eventual outcome, but a desired one.

I can find lots where those same campaigners dismissed nd as project fear. Tice (the brexit party guy) said leaving with nd would be illegal, so I don't get why you just refuse to acknowledge what was actually said and promised, and instead pretend your version of events is true.

[Kizzy]

It's been around a very, very long time, before Boris was even born.

Nope..
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/5cd109c6-df82-11e9-9743-db5a370481bc

https://www.itv.com/news/2019-09-27/cummings-keeps-up-people-vs-parliament-rhetoric-as-bishops-call-for-calm/

https://youtu.be/KKlco8Qn-6E

[Alf]

That's just not true though and everybody knows this. Find me one interview where a leave campaigner was setting out no deal as not only an eventual outcome, but a desired one.

I can find lots where those same campaigners dismissed nd as project fear. Tice (the brexit party guy) said leaving with nd would be illegal, so I don't get why you just refuse to acknowledge what was actually said and promised, and instead pretend your version of events is true.It doesn't matter what the campaigners said, they say lots of things. What counts is what the people said, and the people said "let's leave" and that was over 3 years ago, yet we haven't left yet.

[The Slim Reaper]

It doesn't matter what the campaigners said, they say lots of things. What counts is what the people said, and the people said "let's leave" and that was over 3 years ago, yet we haven't left yet.

I've provided you the numbers that prove this statement incorrect. Add those that don't want a no deal on to those that wanted to remain, and you're in the 33% claiming that your position is more important than the 66%. That's the opposite of a mandate or the will of anyone.

[Alf]

I've provided you the numbers that prove this statement incorrect. Add those that don't want a no deal on to those that wanted to remain, and you're in the 33% claiming that your position is more important than the 66%. That's the opposite of a mandate or the will of anyone.Where are these numbers from? Has every leave voter in the country been asked if they want no deal? I can't remember being asked. So how do they know the percentage of leavers that want no deal? And if they did ask every leave voter in the country, how many of them said "I'm not telling you?"

[Twosugars]

I think it's amazing how tolerant Leavers are, or the UK in general for that matter. If this was in France, they'd have been a violent revolution by now.

Oh spare us your victimhood

All this threats of riots and war from your side are a project fear

Grow up

[The Slim Reaper]

Where are these numbers from? Has every leave voter in the country been asked if they want no deal? I can't remember being asked. So how do they know the percentage of leavers that want no deal? And if they did ask every leave voter in the country, how many of them said "I'm not telling you?"

They're from the Leave means leave, a pro brexit, anti-eu pressure group and they surveyed their own members. Polls by their very nature don't include every single person. We can change the numbers if you like? Let's say that 90% of leavers want to leave with a no deal, that's still against the will of the people.

Here's the issue again, you're not looking t the facts and thinking, what does that mean. You're looking at them and thinking how can I ignore or dismiss them.

[Twosugars]

It doesn't matter what the campaigners said, they say lots of things. What counts is what the people said, and the people said "let's leave" and that was over 3 years ago, yet we haven't left yet.

Nope.

The vote is fixed in time following the campaign where people were reassured they would get a deal

No amount of changing the narrative post voting will change that.

[Tom4784]

It doesn't matter what the campaigners said, they say lots of things. What counts is what the people said, and the people said "let's leave" and that was over 3 years ago, yet we haven't left yet.

This basically translates to 'I don't care if someone lies to me nonstop just as long as it's something I want to hear'. How undignified to be so accepting of conmen and liars just because you think they validate your lack of knowledge about the realities of no deal brexit. By supporting No Deal, you're basically supporting the act of the elite deep dicking you to get a good tax deal.

[Alf]

This basically translates to 'I don't care if someone lies to me nonstop just as long as it's something I want to hear'. How undignified to be so accepting of conmen and liars just because you think they validate your lack of knowledge about the realities of no deal brexit. By supporting No Deal, you're basically supporting the act of the elite deep dicking you to get a good tax deal.You need to get some manners and have a bit of respect before we can have a debate. Until then, you're in Coventry.

[jet]

The whole argument is based on the use of descriptive language jet.. it's a running theme.

You asked were the PMs words horrific enough to warrant the backlash, I simply flipped that to ask if the MPs words were horrific enough to warrant your condemnation?

How could she know what language he was going to use, how could she and others who calmly asked him to temper his word know how he would react...
It's a debate chamber, that's what they do there, they don't drag each other to the side for quiet chats.

It was emotive, being given death threats would I think make you emotional, especially if you express your fears to the person who is exacerbating the problem but who also happens to be the leader of the country..and they react with 'humbug'

I didn't condemn her words, I said the timing and delivery was inappropriate. S
She knew what language he habitually used, as she referred to people being harrasssed in the street using words he used.

As I said, it was far too serious a subject to think yelling at a person is going to bring the desired results if that is what you truly want, rather than trying to embarass and goad them into retaliating. He is now refusing to stop using the words 'surrender bill'.
A behind the scenes meeting with him could have brought success, we'll never know.
So not surprisingly, given her way of handling a serious subject, she failed.

[Kazanne]

You might have jumped to the wrong conclusions there. It's the likes of Jess Phillips, and others, that only know how to play the victim that are magnifying anything Boris says, for their regular victimhood fix.

Exactly ,fancy advertising to the nutters of the country how 'scared' you are and how it gets to you,they will do it even more ,but as you say ,good publicity for them .

[Kazanne]

You need to get some manners and have a bit of respect before we can have a debate. Until then, you're in Coventry.

And they talk about the language used in parliament :laugh::wavey:

[Tom4784]

Good leaders avoid inflammatory language when speaking about issues like this for a reason, if you can't accept that using language on a national stage that makes out that people who disagree with you are the enemy of the people, then you're part of the radicalised masses that probably cheer on such behaviour.

[Kizzy]

I didn't condemn her words, I said the timing and delivery was inappropriate. S
She knew what language he habitually used, as she referred to people being harrasssed in the street using words he used.

As I said, it was far too serious a subject to think yelling at a person is going to bring the desired results if that is what you truly want, rather than trying to embarass and goad them into retaliating. He is now refusing to stop using the words 'surrender bill'.
A behind the scenes meeting with him could have brought success, we'll never know.
So not surprisingly, given her way of handling a serious subject, she failed.

You absolutely did condemn her words, you said they were horrific.
Yes she knew what language he used, her exchange was after several members had requested he tempered his language. He was never going to stop using that term no matter how he was asked.
You have attempted to victim blame here and it's shameful, she gave an empassioned plea to his better nature not realising perhaps he doesn't have one....
She did not fail, she succeeded more people are now aware of the inappropriate comments the PM makes than ever.

[Kizzy]

Exactly ,fancy advertising to the nutters of the country how 'scared' you are and how it gets to you,they will do it even more ,but as you say ,good publicity for them .

More victim blaming.

[The Slim Reaper]

1177934035517104128

[Twosugars]

By supporting No Deal, you're basically supporting the act of the elite deep dicking you to get a good tax deal.

The image in my head D:

[Tom4784]

You need to get some manners and have a bit of respect before we can have a debate. Until then, you're in Coventry.

Respect is earned, not given on demand and your argument of accepting MPs that you know have lied to your face deserves no respect.

[joeysteele]

More victim blaming.

It may have a direction at me Kizzy.
Since I said earlier on this thread how fearful I was becoming even just canvassing.
Never mind what MPs must be feeling.
Which I mostly got from some, only derision on.

So I must be advertising to the nutters too my worries.
So my fault admitting I have fears, if MPs have fears are stupid for advertising their fears.

The real nutters are more possibly those who brand people traitors, cowards who surrender or terrorists.
Firing generalised accusations around like confetti.


More victim blaming definitely as you say.

They wouldn't maybe do so and think more, if the dangerous accusations were being fired at them, their families or people they like.
Rather than not giving a jot for those receiving those threats who they don't care for.
Disgraceful .

[jet]

Good leaders avoid inflammatory language when speaking about issues like this for a reason, if you can't accept that using language on a national stage that makes out that people who disagree with you are the enemy of the people, then you're part of the radicalised masses that probably cheer on such behaviour.

Says you using inflammatory language....and as usual, painting people with broad strokes.

[jet]

You absolutely did condemn her words, you said they were horrific.
Yes she knew what language he used, her exchange was after several members had requested he tempered his language. He was never going to stop using that term no matter how he was asked.
You have attempted to victim blame here and it's shameful, she gave an empassioned plea to his better nature not realising perhaps he doesn't have one....
She did not fail, she succeeded more people are now aware of the inappropriate comments the PM makes than ever.

As a Corbyn admirer, (the terrorist hugger and anti - semite enabler) you don't have a leg to stand on my dear when it comes to talking about inciting voilence. Your words are so hypocritcal its insane.

[Kazanne]

It may have a direction at me Kizzy.
Since I said earlier on this thread how fearful I was becoming even just canvassing.
Never mind what MPs must be feeling.
Which I mostly got from some, only derision on.

So I must be advertising to the nutters too my worries.
So my fault admitting I have fears, if MPs have fears are stupid for advertising their fears.

The real nutters are more possibly those who brand people traitors, cowards who surrender or terrorists.
Firing generalised accusations around like confetti.


More victim blaming definitely as you say.

They wouldn't maybe do so and think more, if the dangerous accusations were being fired at them, their families or people they like.
Rather than not giving a jot for those receiving those threats who they don't care for.
Disgraceful .

Joey i assure you it wasnt aimed at you at all,I havent been about that much, I try and keep out of here as much as possible ,but will comment on things I feel I agree with and I agreed with Jet, that was all.

[jet]

Joey i assure you it wasnt aimed at you at all,I havent been about that much, I try and keep out of here as much as possible ,but will comment on things I feel I agree with and I agreed with Jet, that was all.

It was Alf you agreed with Kaz, but you can agree with me anytime. :hee: :love:

[Kazanne]

It was Alf you agreed with Kaz, but you can agree with me anytime. :hee: :love:

:wavey:I did wonder if it was ,Alf, lol but We mostly agree on things Jet

[arista]

"Blame ‘remoaners’"



Yes Slim
Some of them are Dirty Rotten Scoundrels

[Tom4784]

Says you using inflammatory language....and as usual, painting people with broad strokes.

Aww, you almost understood what I was saying then, almost. Maybe it'll dawn on you next time. Not gonna hold my breath though.

[jet]

Aww, you almost understood what I was saying then, almost. Maybe it'll dawn on you next time. Not gonna hold my breath though.

No, don't hold your breath as I rarely read what you say anymore. I don't appreciate know -it - all, 'I'm always in the right' posts. :sleep:

[Tom4784]

No, don't hold your breath as I rarely read what you say anymore. I don't appreciate know -it - all, 'I'm always in the right' posts. :sleep:

Oh? You're gonna pretend not to read my posts? Oh, whatever will I do? How am I supposed to cope without the great and wonderful JET acknowledging my posts and giving my life meaning?! Oh Fates! Thoust are most cruel!

If you cheer on Boris' terminology, you are part of the problem. No ifs or buts about it. Such terminology has no place in politics, not when right wing extremists take such statements to heart and Right Wingers are more concerned with pointing fingers at the left instead of, you know, weeding out the extremists.

[Kizzy]

Can't disagree with any of that...

[arista]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFlDkJTXkAAIh9a?format=jpg&name=small
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EFlDkJTXoAAYTfn?format=jpg&name=360x360

[Twosugars]

Another example of a hysterical language
"collusion "

[MTVN]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/375/cpsprodpb/1812A/production/_109020689_metrop1sep30.jpg

So much for there being no threat of violence from the left

[Ammi]

..the banner is the perfect example of the importance of words/terminology with the potential impact and dangers...with all parties though, there is a lack of self awareness, combined with huge personal egos...Boris Johnson’s mindset of its everyone else but not me because my language is fine, is not helping at all...